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Source: (consider it) Thread: Neigh, Horseman Bree
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Ricardus et al re. Scouse digression.

Misjudging of tone on both sides, I fear. The original was intended to be largely in keeping with the OTT broad-brush stereotypical slurs that formed the root of Porridge's call on Horseman Bree. Probably given a little bit too much edge due to personal history and the lack of context, mind.

I wrongly (?) assumed that Ricardus' dismissive riposte was carrying on in the same vein, and therefore ran with it.

So, basically the kind of provocatively offensive exchange that in Real Life(tm) with all the other non-verbal cues and the benefit of being between people who know each other and have some shared history is just gratuitously offensive humour underpinned by understanding, and on a forum amongst people who you don't actually know one another can go either way.

Doubtless compounded by reading far too much Old Holborn on Twitter.


I think you need to change your reading material.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351

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Thank you for your concern.

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

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Augustine the Aleut
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Golden Key posted:
quote:
There was another time (in Hell, IIRC, but the thread doesn't seem to have been archived), non-US folks got very upset about calling ourselves "Americans". Basically, it was self-important, etc. Several of us, including a certain Floridian, pointed out that the US is fully named the "United States of America". No other country of the Americas has that in their official name. We also said that we were quite aware of our country's failings; and if someone wanted to dig into them, we'd help. But at least criticize us for something that the gov't actually *did*.
This tangent was not explored in depth enough (IMHO) to explain why it be a sensitive issue for some Canadians (most have no idea about it). It's useful to recall that before 1766/1783 there were 15-17 colonies (depending how and if you count Florida) called America. Thirteen of them took off and formed the USA, leaving Canada and Nova Scotia. Then about 80,000 Loyalists headed north, still thinking themselves to be Americans. The term Canadian only applied to francophone Québécois for another half-century.

An annexation attempt in 1812 and another century of manifest destiny speechmaking did not soothe these nerves and there was a sneaking suspicion that the hegemonizing gene was still at play.

The objection was never to what the USA was, nor its failings real or imagined, or what it was up to-- it was discomfort with the exclusiveness of the name, the assumed de-Americanizing of the other inhabitants of the continent, and to the assumptions involved in it. Even as recently as the 1970s, history writer Pierre Berton complained that Canadians were Americans too.

Nothing will be done about it and nothing can be done about it; it is just one of those odd little irritants. I suspect it might entirely disappear in the next generation or so as the last of the Loyalists cheerfully procreate with Sikhs and Rwandans.

My apologies if this post isn't hellish enough for this board.

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Palimpsest
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or to summarize
In the beginning
[Biased]

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
It's pretty plain to me that SaySay was talking to herself when she said, "Probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google)."

She posted it in a public forum. She was most emphatically and quite obviously NOT talking to herself.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is the most rational date format for long term storage and reference.

Actually for storage the hyphens are irrational; two meaningless bytes that are unnecessary and wasteful.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
It's pretty plain to me that SaySay was talking to herself when she said, "Probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google)."

She posted it in a public forum. She was most emphatically and quite obviously NOT talking to herself.

Note to self: don't publicly type notes to yourself as a device to communicate your thought processes to readers while conveying that you are letting them in on your thought processes. It apparently won't go down well with some Shipmates.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
as a device to communicate your thought processes to readers

Miss the point much? If you're communicating your thought processes to readers, you're not talking to yourself. You're communicating (I'm ashamed for you that I even have to say this) to the readers.

The bit that Twilight is defending was saysay ostensibly "talking to herself" but actually taking a swipe at me. Twilight fondly thinks that the fact she was "talking to herself" means she couldn't possibly be taking a swipe at me. And here you are defending her. Which I find weird; she didn't actually say anything racist.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Actually for storage the hyphens are irrational; two meaningless bytes that are unnecessary and wasteful.

I would argue the hyphens are rational.
The braking down of numbers into smaller units help most people process long numbers.
2015-03-18 is easier to read, process and remember than 20150318.
Unnecessary? I'd concede this.
Wasteful? Well, maybe in the Ye Olde Days, in the days when programs were measured in bits and were carved directly onto small pieces of silicon, but these days? Not so important.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
as a device to communicate your thought processes to readers

Miss the point much?
I can see you enjoy asking me this.

quote:
If you're communicating your thought processes to readers, you're not talking to yourself. You're communicating (I'm ashamed for you that I even have to say this) to the readers.
Actually, you can be doing both. That was my point (you're not the only who gets to have points). So don't set it up as an either/or (and in fact a later bit of your post seems to acknowledge it isn't an either/or)

quote:
The bit that Twilight is defending was saysay ostensibly "talking to herself" but actually taking a swipe at me.
Quite possibly.

quote:
Twilight fondly thinks that the fact she was "talking to herself" means she couldn't possibly be taking a swipe at me.
See, now you are saying that they're not mutually exclusive. Good, you understand how it works then.

quote:
And here you are defending her. Which I find weird; she didn't actually say anything racist.
Oh my aching sides. How nice of you to provide a continuity references after several days of peace and quiet.
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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Actually for storage the hyphens are irrational; two meaningless bytes that are unnecessary and wasteful.

I would argue the hyphens are rational.
The braking down of numbers into smaller units help most people process long numbers.
2015-03-18 is easier to read, process and remember than 20150318.

But there's no need to store the hyphens, you just put them back in when you display the date.
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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...
There was another time (in Hell, IIRC, but the thread doesn't seem to have been archived), non-US folks got very upset about calling ourselves "Americans". ...

If citizens of South Africa called themselves "Africans", would Africans from other countries on the continent be offended?

Who cares? I think a lot of people are too sensitive these days and spend too much time finding things to be upset about.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...
There was another time (in Hell, IIRC, but the thread doesn't seem to have been archived), non-US folks got very upset about calling ourselves "Americans". ...

If citizens of South Africa called themselves "Africans", would Africans from other countries on the continent be offended?

Who cares? I think a lot of people are too sensitive these days and spend too much time finding things to be upset about.

All the South Africans I know (quite a range of friends and colleagues) describe themselves as South Africans, and wouldn't think of doing otherwise.

And I continually get into trouble for forgetting which ones are actual South Africans, and which are from Zimbabwe and thus Southern African rather than South African.

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh my aching sides. How nice of you to provide a continuity references after several days of peace and quiet.

How nice of you to take a swipe at me after several days of peace and quiet, hypocrite.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Swipe? It was closer to a hand waved vaguely in your general direction. I thought it was mildly amusing to illustrate the technique of describing one's own thoughts, because it's a technique I use moderately often. Usually I mark it with asterisks.

*Reminds himself to be consistent about using asterisks.*

How that's equivalent to you raising the racist point again, I've no idea. Did that have any relevance to THIS conversation? Nope.

[ 18. March 2015, 12:57: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...
There was another time (in Hell, IIRC, but the thread doesn't seem to have been archived), non-US folks got very upset about calling ourselves "Americans". ...

If citizens of South Africa called themselves "Africans", would Africans from other countries on the continent be offended?

Who cares? I think a lot of people are too sensitive these days and spend too much time finding things to be upset about.

A quick telephone poll (1 each of Sierra Leonean, Burundian, and a Cotivorian) got the following consensus: If the South African in question intended to suggest that nobody else was African, they need not expect to be given a drink or invited to the table. The proposition got one furrowed brow (as far as one can distinguish gestures over the telephone), a derisive snort, and a burst of laughter. They were united only in complaints about the weather. I joined them in that.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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Of course there are already such issues in that South Africans come from South Africa. Not Botswana, Lesotho, Mozambique, Namibia, Swaziland, Zambia or Zimbabwe.

I've never heard offence expressed by inhabitants of Southern African countries about the confusion that would be generated if they described themselves as South Africans.

On the other hand the use of the Bantu label can cause great offence to many black South Africans - despite the fact that it is a technically correct term. The history and context of that label is much more important in determining the offence taken than the technical accuracy.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Regardless, all a long way from Canada.

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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Regardless, all a long way from Canada.

Yes, but connected possibly?

American isn't what most people not from the U.S. call themselves. Canadians, Mexicans and south to Cape Horn do not, in general reference to themselves, call themselves American.*
And nobody else* in the entire world does either. Why? Because America is not part of their countries' names.
America, as a continental designation/grouping of people, is not used in the manner that European, African or Asian is. Not casually and not culturally.

ETA connection: South African = from the country not the region in a similar fashion.

Generalisation, but near enough universal to be true.

[ 18. March 2015, 16:44: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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When I first visited Canada I was curious how Canadians referred to people from the United States. Perhaps they were just being polite but I've never heard any usage but "Americans". Perhaps the "Damn" is silent as in Yankee. [Smile]
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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Horseman Bree once took to calling Americans USians. Not sure when he stopped. He may still call us USians for all I know.
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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The bit that Twilight is defending was saysay ostensibly "talking to herself" but actually taking a swipe at me.

Really? You think I was taking a swipe at you? I was trying to admit that I sometimes make erroneous assumptions about what references Shipmates will pick up on. But if you want to read it as a swipe, go right ahead.

Just so long as you don't read it as hate speech against some unspecified protected group.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
America, as a continental designation/grouping of people, is not used in the manner that European, African or Asian is. Not casually and not culturally.

Native American.

EDIT: Also, "Latin American" does not have anything to do with the United States - quite the reverse. The term used for the relevant culture within the United States is "Latino". In other words, we end up with "Latin American" not being a subset of "American" but a wider and separate category.

Which does tend to convey that "American" is the standard kind of American, no adjective required, and "Latin American" is a special, exotic breed. I've certainly seen a lot of criticism of times that "white" or "male" is a default setting and only "black" or "female" gets an adjective added.

Similarly, "South American" does not relate to being below the Mason-Dixon line.

[ 18. March 2015, 21:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
When I first visited Canada I was curious how Canadians referred to people from the United States. Perhaps they were just being polite but I've never heard any usage but "Americans". Perhaps the "Damn" is silent as in Yankee. [Smile]

You nailed it. However did our politeness mask slip? [Big Grin]

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Even more so than I was before

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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When you ask someone from Peru what they are, they will say Peruano (Peruvian), someone from Argentina will say Argentino (Argentinian), Cost Rica - Costarricense (Cost Rican), etc. It is only when speaking of countries/cultures as an aggregate that the terms South American or Latin American come to play. Or when United Sates of America(n) privilege is a factor.
Estados Unidos Mexicanos is called Mexico everywhere else. Same convention as USA = America.
The Native Americans I know prefer to be called by the group (tribe) to which they belong. Many refer to themselves as Indian with no animus towards the term.

I do not see the white male default as completely the same as the American for the US because of the self-referential names mentioned above.
ISTM, American for citizen of The United States of America evolved from the name and not originally with any other motive.
Are there problems associated with American privilege?* Yes. I do not see the name as one of them.

[ 19. March 2015, 00:02: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

Native American.[/QUOTE]
This is not generally in use in Canada. This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as American. As does the term 'reservation'. They are 'reserves' in Canada.

In decades past, the term "Indian" was used, and people from the Indian subcontinent were always "East Indians". The current usage seems to be changing to First Nations, notwithstanding the government Department of Indian and Northern Affairs (which has an additional moniker as "Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada" under the :"federal identity program", but that is far too tangential methinks), and organizations representing these peoples commonly have the word Indian within.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as American. As does the term 'reservation'.

This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as not Canadian.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

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For those interested, section 14.12 of the Canadian Government Style tells us: the terms used to designate the Indigenous peoples of Canada have undergone considerable change in recent years. Although the Canadian Constitution Act, 1982, uses the term aboriginal peoples in the lower case, the words Aboriginal, Indigenous and Native have since come to be capitalized when used in the Canadian context. The terms currently preferred are the following:
Aboriginal people(s)
Native people(s)
Indigenous people(s)
First people(s)


In my bureaucratic days, we used "First Peoples" in legal contexts, and "Aboriginal peoples" in cultural contexts. When dealing with specific acts or agreements, we would write "First Nations" for treaty and non-treaty communities, and nation-specific language when appropriate (e.g., Algonquin of Barriere Lake). First Peoples would include First Nations, Inuit, Inuvialuit, and Métis. We would have fistfights in the corridors over the official forms of several BC communities, as they used some non-standard letters which our Communications staff hated.

Native American was a term which we saw in US academic circles but, when a certain agency did focus-group testing on its usage here, found out that a great majority of those polled assumed that a Canadian Native American meant someone born in Canada as opposed to immigrants. European scholars either used Indian or the official terms I mentioned.

I was entertained when one of our interns suggested that we replace "American" with "Lost Provinces," but I did not think that it would get much traction and, in any case, the French was too close with an off-colour reference to be workable.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Academic circles and common parlance are not always the same. A common UK term is Red Indian.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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My daughter, working in UK, has been greatly surprised when staff have commonly used the wording "Red Indian". Different terminology play differently in different places. She also discussed learning of "Indian clubs" on the continent.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318

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We're learning gradually. But we say 'Red Indians' — and 'Eskimos' — without malice, as culturally received expressions. And few of us in the UK meet Red Indians or Eskimos who might want to tell us they find it offensive. As a crossword compiler, I've been clueing Eskimo for Inuit, and vice versa, for donkeys' years and have never received any complaints.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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Ignoring the "red" part for the moment -

The meaning of Indian (in English language) has changed. Originally it meant close to what it means now - the adjective applied to things associated with the lands around the Indus, and by extension to the lands now known as India.

Then came the misattribution of the Americas by early Spanish and Portuguese explorers to the east coast of India. By the time it was discovered that the Americas were no such thing it was too late, and English duly copied Spanish usage. And then by extension it came to mean anywhere far-off ("The Indes"). It's now returned almost to its original meaning, though some older usages persist.

Indian clubs were in fact originally met with by English speakers in India hence the attribution, though that is not their origin.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I'm really surprised to hear that Red Indian is still in use. I guess I've already played my hand as to what term I would be most likely to use - although, as in the UK, the chances of it coming up are fairly slim.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
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I support Augustine. Culturally speaking, in Canada, the use of the term Eskimo (Esquimaux) is considered extremely offensive, and this is not just in academic circles, but common parlance. We use the name by which Northern Aboriginals call themselves. It is common courtesy.

As for the term Indian and Red Indian to describe other First Nations, the last time I used those terms was nearly 50 years ago. I only hear it as a pejorative (preceded by adjectives such as dirty and drunken) by ignorant people who are themselves neither especially clean nor sober.

Augustine has clearly explained the current usuages, both legally and culturally. Once again, it is common courtesy.

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lilBuddha
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Courtesy, yes. Common? Not so much.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is not generally in use in Canada. This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as American. As does the term 'reservation'. They are 'reserves' in Canada.

Whereas I am used to reserves being for animals, like a wildlife reserve. So saying that a reserve is for indigenous people conjures up nasty images. OTOH, I think that was really the point of putting Native Americans on reservations.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is not generally in use in Canada. This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as American. As does the term 'reservation'. They are 'reserves' in Canada.

Whereas I am used to reserves being for animals, like a wildlife reserve. So saying that a reserve is for indigenous people conjures up nasty images. OTOH, I think that was really the point of putting Native Americans on reservations.
Except in Canada, they weren't Native Americans. See above entries.

The reserves were a combination of putting them out of the way (usually on not very choice land-- not laudable) and protecting them from having some of their land defrauded by speculators (more laudable).

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lily pad
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I support Augustine. Culturally speaking, in Canada, the use of the term Eskimo (Esquimaux) is considered extremely offensive, and this is not just in academic circles, but common parlance. We use the name by which Northern Aboriginals call themselves. It is common courtesy.

As for the term Indian and Red Indian to describe other First Nations, the last time I used those terms was nearly 50 years ago. I only hear it as a pejorative (preceded by adjectives such as dirty and drunken) by ignorant people who are themselves neither especially clean nor sober.

Augustine has clearly explained the current usuages, both legally and culturally. Once again, it is common courtesy.

And yet, in England in 2008, the only time I have ever been there, both Eskimo and Red Indian were used several times in conversations I was a part of. I was quite taken aback and, later on, when I mentioned my discomfort, was reassured that both were very common terms and not to be offended.

[ 19. March 2015, 23:56: Message edited by: lily pad ]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Augustine--

Yes, what I was trying to say is that *here in the US*, where some Native Americans live on reservations, "reserve" can have the connotations I mentioned.

ETA: And the US reservations were for the reason I stated. And genocide, (Never mind the US gov't purposely handing out smallpox-infected blankets--though I'm not sure if that was on a reservation.)

[ 20. March 2015, 00:25: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

The reserves were a combination of putting them out of the way (usually on not very choice land-- not laudable) and protecting them from having some of their land defrauded by speculators (more laudable).

As were the American Reservations. The paths in Canada and the US were similar. Cooperation, competition, dispossession, assimilation and disaffection.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Courtesy, yes. Common? Not so much.

Perhaps not, in the circles you move in. In Canada, children are now, and have been since the sixties, taught to use proper terminology. So, whole generations of adults have emerged using the terms. The only people who use those pejorative terms (with no malice intended) are people of my parents' generation.

So, yes, common.

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Even more so than I was before

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Augustine the Aleut
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Indeed, the small fry are veritable constables of correct nomenclature. Anyone foolishly using the term Eskimo will be sharply corrected by anyone under 18. A teacher friend notes that children are given lessons on acceptance, fair play, and respect for identity and tells me that, while they are demons and rapscallions in almost every other way, her charges are exemplary in this.
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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I support Augustine. Culturally speaking, in Canada, the use of the term Eskimo (Esquimaux) is considered extremely offensive, and this is not just in academic circles, but common parlance. We use the name by which Northern Aboriginals call themselves. It is common courtesy.

As for the term Indian and Red Indian to describe other First Nations, the last time I used those terms was nearly 50 years ago. I only hear it as a pejorative (preceded by adjectives such as dirty and drunken) by ignorant people who are themselves neither especially clean nor sober.

Augustine has clearly explained the current usuages, both legally and culturally. Once again, it is common courtesy.

And yet, in England in 2008, the only time I have ever been there, both Eskimo and Red Indian were used several times in conversations I was a part of. I was quite taken aback and, later on, when I mentioned my discomfort, was reassured that both were very common terms and not to be offended.
Did these people in England ever use those terms in the presence of people they refer to, the so-called "Eskimos" or "Red Indians"? They might have learned a different mode of courtesy if they had.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Kittyville
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Lyda*Rose, the answer to your question is "Probably not, on account of never having met either one, and not being likely to".

I'm another one surprised to hear that "Red Indian" is common usage in the UK, and I lived there for three quarters of my life. "Eskimo" I find more plausible as common usage, but most people in the UK wouldn't have a clue that it was offensive and wouldn't intend it to be, when using it, even if they knew. Most people in the UK have no reason to express offensive sentiments about people from any of Canada's First Nations, because they're not affected by them in any way.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re Eskimo:

Some years back, in various media, I picked up that "Eskimo" was an insult (something about the nose, I think--or am I getting that mixed up with Lapp?). "Aleut" was the preferred term. So I switched.

Within the last several years, I heard that Eskimo actually was a proper term, so I was confused. I just now searched on "Eskimo Aleut", and found a bunch of hits using both as official terms for languages, and saying they're two branches of the same language.

I don't want to offend anybody. So I could use some help, please. Are linguists slow on the uptake? Are the web page writers?

Thanks in advance.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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Probably in the UK the majority of people would be aware of the word 'Inuit', but the vast majority would probably consider 'Inuit' and 'Eskimo' as equivalent and interchangeable. A minority would probably be aware that 'Inuit' is the prefered self-identification of those groups of people, but unaware that 'Eskimo' would be offensive. Where would most people learn that this is offensive? I've certainly never been explicitely told that.

'Red Indian' is, IME, an unusual term in the UK. Usually just 'Indian', as in 'cowboys and indians' without any qualifier. Where there's potential for confusion with citizens of India, 'Native American' would probably be used.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Courtesy, yes. Common? Not so much.

Perhaps not, in the circles you move in.

Yeah, I was kinda taking about here. SOF. More than once we've had people defending nigger as "Oops. We did not know it was really offencive anywhere other than the US. Are you sure it is really offencive? Gran says it often, surely that is OK"?
And, IIRC, some of them were actually well mannered, considerate people.
So forgive me not knowing Canadians are better at the name thing than anywhere else in the world.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Did these people in England ever use those terms in the presence of people they refer to, the so-called "Eskimos" or "Red Indians"? They might have learned a different mode of courtesy if they had.

Probably not. Despite the shrieks from the BNP and UKIP, the UK is exceedingly pale. And British.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Whoops, minor correction: what I'd heard was that "Inuit" should be used instead of "Eskimo".

So I just looked up "Inuit Eskimo". One hit mentions that:

quote:
Although the name "Eskimo" is commonly used in Alaska to refer to all Inuit and Yupik people of the world, this name is considered derogatory in many other places because it was given by non-Inuit people and was said to mean "eater of raw meat."
It goes on to talk about a shift in linguists' view of the etymology.

I try to be mindful of what people want to be called. I don't think in terms of being politically correct, because the term really means "I think your concerns are silly, but I'm being forced to play nicely, but I really don't value you". OTOH, name/terminology changes get really frustrating, because there are so many. (As there should be.)

Heck, even health conditions. I've got one that has several names, including: Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome (CFIDS); Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS); Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME); the original, really insulting Yuppie Flu--insulting because it meant that Yuppies (Young Urban Professionals)--supposedly the first affected--were lazy, entitled, precious, and faking it; and how wrong they were. [Mad] People have been trying to come up with more terms. I can't keep up with them, and IMHO I don't really need to. I use CFIDS, because that best describes my experience of the damn disease. I'd rather that they spend more time and money on prevention, treatment, and cure, than messing around with labels.

Anyway, names and respect are *important*. Dealing with many name changes can be wearying.
[Angel]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'd rather that they spend more time and money on prevention, treatment, and cure, than messing around with labels.

Add addressing inequities to that.
quote:

Anyway, names and respect are *important*. Dealing with many name changes can be wearying.
[Angel]

And confusing at times. But respect is a worthy goal. And disrespect too valuable. I try not to waste it on general catagories, but save it for those who've earned it.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'd rather that they spend more time and money on prevention, treatment, and cure, than messing around with labels.

Add addressing inequities to that.

Well, I was speaking specifically of CFIDS there, not any other group with name changes. Though there've been lots of inequities in the way CFIDS has been handled. Even to the point where the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) redirected our research money--and Congress called them on the carpet for that. [Overused] The CDC had to start taking us seriously. Sometimes, Congress gets it right.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Golden Key

The original name is often held to be Royal Free Disease.

Jengie

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