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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kill the Christians
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Did anyone else see this programme by Jane Corbin on BBC2 last night? If so, what do you think? If not, watch it on iPlayer. I'd like to say, that's an order, not an option.
I thought it was excellent. From what one's been able to pick up hitherto, I suspect it was also fairly objective. It even caught something of the dilemma faced by Christians as a minority in Syria.
I'm not given to complimenting journalists, but it must also have taken quite a lot of courage to make. At one point she was interviewing Peshmerga soldiers in what appeared to be the front line with ISIS trenches in front of them.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I watched it and found it very sad, particularly the interviews with Fr Douglas. It made me angry too, not just at the persecution that the poor blighters have undergone and are still going through but also at those Christians in the west who whinge about being 'persecuted'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Haven't yet watched the programme, so cannot comment directly. But ISIS target anyone who does not agree with their interpretation of Islam. Given that it is a fairly extreme version, this casts a very wide net which even catches many, many other Muslims.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
It seems that many Muslims are victims of Isis. But ethnic or theocratic cleansing is wrong who ever does it and to whoever it is done to.
I pray that all the anti immigration rhetoric doesn't lead to the same thing here in the long run.
Perhaps it is no accident that the documentary was based in the Nineveh Plain, the same place where God sent Jonah to extend grace to the other.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
That is true. The programme endorsed that. However, everyone knows that and it wasn't the piece of news that it was trying to get across, which is something far less well known and largely unappreciated in Britain.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why should I watch it? IS' main victims by a couple of orders of magnitude aren't Christians. I'm beginning to cease to know what that means.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Haven't yet watched the programme, so cannot comment directly. But ISIS target anyone who does not agree with their interpretation of Islam. Given that it is a fairly extreme version, this casts a very wide net which even catches many, many other Muslims.
Agreed. But it is not Muslims who are on the verge of extinction in those parts of the Middle East, but Christians and Yazidis.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
What of the Jews?
There have been Jews in the area since the time of the exile.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Not good news but the decline has been ongoing for decades and attributable to other factors such as the establishment of Israel, not just persecution in Iraq.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Not good news but the decline has been ongoing for decades and attributable to other factors such as the establishment of Israel, not just persecution in Iraq.
I'm not sure this comment really is relevant with respect to Christians in Iraq. It is true that Palestinian Christians feel a close association with Iraqi Christians, but I don't think there is any evidence that the decline (of Christianity in Iraq) is due to Israel - either directly or indirectly.
It is certainly true that there are large numbers of displaced Palestinians in "refugee" camps in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan who have been there for a long time in essentially poorly built cities. Many Palestinians inside the West Bank and Gaza also live in deplorable conditions.
But even this does not explain why, in particular, there is a loss of Christians. In Gaza there have been some very well known and high profile incidents of anti-Christian abuse, but then the population there of Christians was always very small. The West Bank, which had a long-term population of Christians, has been haemorrhaging people from the Christian minority for many years.
When I visited and spoke to people in the Christian community in the West Bank, I got the impression that they were relatively well integrated, but that Christians seem to have more contacts outside of the Middle East than the average Muslim. Hence it is easier for them to move to family or friends, particularly in South America. I did not hear anything to support the wild accusations of anti-Christian abuse in the West Bank.
In Iraq, we only tend to hear about Christians from people with a very idealogical position, such as Andrew White (described to me by a diplomat recently as the "loose Canon"). Anglicans are a tiny minority of Christians in the Middle East and AW by no means speaks for all Christians in Iraq or elsewhere in the region. In fact there is a long-standing problem of inter-denominational rivalry amongst the evangelical community (of which the Anglican church is generally a part) throughout the region, and Anglicans in particular find it hard to shake off the colonial British connection.
Sadly it seems that much of the rest of the Christian world likes to use Middle Eastern Christians as a political football - either despising them as pro-Palestinian zealots, pumping them with funds as an outpost of denominational values or dismissing them as nominal Christians without any real faith to speak of. And then, occasionally, they're portrayed as passive victims, oppressed by everyone.
The Middle East is a big and complex place. Christians and other religious minorities do not face the same situation in all countries, and there is no way to make a general statement about them all which does not in some way apply to other minorities.
But neither, I don't think, is there any particular reason to highlight those terrible circumstances where they have been massacred as examples of general persecution in the region. This just plays into a narrative that some are repeating for their own political motives. As has been said, IS are equal opportunity haters of those who disagree with them.
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arse
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why should I watch it? IS' main victims by a couple of orders of magnitude aren't Christians. I'm beginning to cease to know what that means.
So the Christians and their ancient churches in the Middle East don't matter?
I think you should watch it.
And so will I.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Not good news but the decline has been ongoing for decades and attributable to other factors such as the establishment of Israel, not just persecution in Iraq.
I'm not sure this comment really is relevant with respect to Christians in Iraq. It is true that Palestinian Christians feel a close association with Iraqi Christians, but I don't think there is any evidence that the decline (of Christianity in Iraq) is due to Israel - either directly or indirectly.
The comment was to do with the decline of Jews in Iraq, not Christians, in response to Jengie's question; the establishment of Israel then is quite germane to the decline of the Jewish population in Iraq, since it acts as a 'pull' factor in addition to the 'push' of persecution.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
The comment was to do with the decline of Jews in Iraq, not Christians, in response to Jengie's question; the establishment of Israel then is quite germane to the decline of the Jewish population in Iraq, since it acts as a 'pull' factor in addition to the 'push' of persecution.
Doof, sorry.
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arse
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Everything matters Laurelin. Let me know why it does. What a difference we can make. Carpet bomb Raqqa?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Martin60
"Bless those who persecute you".
Take your pick from Matthew 5, Luke 6, Romans 12, 1 Cor 4, 1 Peter 3.
And recognise (in accordance with John Donne) that "No man is an island ..". What leaps out of that well known poem is this.
[quote] ..any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
Neither vengeance nor indifference are options. At least I can't see that they are.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye B. What makes the suffering of these significant? Different?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Because we are Christians and they are our brothers and sisters.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Aye B. What makes the suffering of these significant? Different?
The John Donne poem emphasises both the OT and NT truths; that any human suffering is significant, and indifference to it is a sin.
Is there a difference? Good question. It is easy for familial associations to descend into tribal prejudices and I guess we all have to watch that.
Several of the Northumbria Community complines contain the line "My dear ones O God, bless Thou and keep in every place where they are". My wife and I find that an encouragement to pray specifically for those who are close to us by ties of family relationship and friendship. So that includes people who are Christians and those who aren't.
Prayer for those we know, and whose circumstances we know, enables us to be more specific I think. Prayer for those whose circumstances become known to us (e.g. by the news) but who are not known to us personally tends to be specific about the circumstances without any specific understanding of how they are personally affected. So they are less personal.
Since we are commanded to pray both for those who are persecuted and those who are persecuting, both those we know well and those we do not know well, I'm not sure there's a clear distinction.
But so far as actions are concerned, particularly donations of service and money, there is a clear distinction. We do not encourage wrongdoers in the continuation of their wrong acts. Both prayers and service on behalf of wrongdoers are directed towards changes of hearts and minds away from the wrong they are doing. Including persecution.
So I don't think the faith of the sinners or the victims informs our prayers and actions so much as the nature of the sin and the victimisation.
One can argue, perfectly reasonably, that the sinners who are victimising may have a desperate need to find Christ and be found in Him. And that would be a prayer to bless the sinner, for example. But I've lived a long time, long enough to have seen a number of folks who have found Christ do a fair bit of victimising and persecuting, so I think our prayers and actions are best directed on the basis of the baleful consequences of persecution, both to the persecutors and the persecuted.
Does that make sense, Martin60? As I say, you ask a good question.
[ 18. April 2015, 08:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I saw the programme on I-Player. I'd been away when it was aired on Wednesday.
I thought it was well balanced and thought-provoking.
I'm saddened to think that the Holy Land might become a museum for visiting pilgrims - that indigenous Christianity there is under so much pressure (economic as much as anything else).
I was even sadder when I heard the Iraqi RC priest say that the best thing the West could do would be to 'open the gates' and give more visas ...
As if the only hope for his people was migration.
Things have to become pretty desperate for that to be the case. And this poor chap had been tortured and abused for his faith.
I don't know what the answer is, although as we, the Western powers, effectively created the mess in the first place, then we ought to do something about it ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I watched it and found it very sad, particularly the interviews with Fr Douglas. It made me angry too, not just at the persecution that the poor blighters have undergone and are still going through but also at those Christians in the west who whinge about being 'persecuted'.
Yes! Especially here in the US, where we have people like the pizzeria owner in Indiana who's being "persecuted" because she won't cater a gay wedding. It trivializes the suffering of our fellow Christians (and people of other religions!) who are truly being persecuted elsewhere.
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm certainly not indifferent to my tribe persecuting others and whinging about being persecuted for it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Because we are Christians and they are our brothers and sisters.
It is sectarian BS that is fueling the persecution. So, you are fine when it doesn't include Christians?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is sectarian BS that is fueling the persecution. So, you are fine when it doesn't include Christians?
Since you're putting the question to me, I feel I ought to respond. But what does BS stand for in this context, and what do you mean by the question? i.e. What are you actually asking?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is sectarian BS that is fueling the persecution. So, you are fine when it doesn't include Christians?
Since you're putting the question to me, I feel I ought to respond. But what does BS stand for in this context, and what do you mean by the question? i.e. What are you actually asking?
You responded to Martin that you should care because the persecuted are Christian. It is caring only about one's own that is part of the problem in that region.
IMO, we should care about everyone that is being persecuted there. It is my opinion that Jesus would.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Yes! Especially here in the US, where we have people like the pizzeria owner in Indiana who's being "persecuted" because she won't cater a gay wedding. It trivializes the suffering of our fellow Christians (and people of other religions!) who are truly being persecuted elsewhere.
It is absolutely trivial by comparison, but nevertheless: Why should someone be compelled to cater for anything they don't feel comfortable with? (I phrase this in general terms, as I do not wish to stray into DH-territory).
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
we, the Western powers, effectively created the mess in the first place
I have just finished reading a recent biography of T.E. Lawrence, with all its reminders of the way in which Western foreign policy in the Middle East (Sykes-Picot, Balfour, etc) was improvised on the run.
All imperial policy, including that of the Ottoman Empire, can be criticized in retrospect, but in practice Western colonialism policy receives all or most of the attention.
Western imperial policy was never uniquely exploitative or culpable.
And it is certainly no justification for the sort of atrocities perpetrated by Islamist extremists in the ME or elsewhere.
I have also been reading Heretic, the latest book by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is as unpopular with some Western leftists as she is with Islamofascists, because she refuses to accept special pleading in extenuation of Islamist violence and intolerance.
She writes: “There are other people besides Muslims who have complaints about U.S.”imperialism”. Yet there is precious little evidence of an upsurge in terrorism, suicide bombings, sectarian warfare, mediaeval punishments and honour killings in the the non-Muslim world”.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
we should care about everyone that is being persecuted there.
Or anywhere else for that matter.
At the same time, it is difficult to imagine Hindus, or Muslims, or Buddhists being condemned for expressing an all too understandable particular concern for the persecution of their own co-religionists.
Apologies if I have missed it, but I don't think there has been a single reference on the Ship to the 150 targetted Christians murdered recently in Kenya by al-Shabab, an omission which would be unthinkable had they been the members of any other religious group killed by Christians.
[ 19. April 2015, 04:45: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Apologies if I have missed it, but I don't think there has been a single reference on the Ship to the 150 targetted Christians murdered recently in Kenya by al-Shabab, an omission which would be unthinkable had they been the members of any other religious group killed by Christians.
I didn't see any posts about it by you, so I suppose by that measure you didn't think it was all that important either.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Apologies if I have missed it, but I don't think there has been a single reference on the Ship to the 150 targetted Christians murdered recently in Kenya by al-Shabab, an omission which would be unthinkable had they been the members of any other religious group killed by Christians.
I didn't see any posts about it by you, so I suppose by that measure you didn't think it was all that important either.
You have now.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
At the same time, it is difficult to imagine Hindus, or Muslims, or Buddhists being condemned for expressing an all too understandable particular concern for the persecution of their own co-religionists.
Apologies if I have missed it, but I don't think there has been a single reference on the Ship to the 150 targetted Christians murdered recently in Kenya by al-Shabab, an omission which would be unthinkable had they been the members of any other religious group killed by Christians.
If a particular concern for one's own co-religionists is understandable, so is a particular outrage at the actions of one's own co-religionists.
That said, nobody on the Ship has complained recently about the actions of the Lord's Resistance Army or any of the other nominally Christian militia groups operating in central Africa.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
nobody on the Ship has complained recently about the actions of the Lord's Resistance Army
Yes, that's really strange, because you'd expect that we would just naturally identify with a group like the LRA which is so smack bang in the centre of the Christian tradition.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Where was I justifying the actions of extreme jihadist groups like IS, Kaplan?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
To identify Imperial British/French machinations as among the root causes of the current problems goes no way towards justifying the atrocities of evil groups like IS.
That would like saying that because the roots of the Troubles in Ulster went back to the 17th century Plantations and beyond that to centuries of Anglo-Norman interference in Ireland we are somehow justifying IRA and INLA violence from the 1970s onwards ...
I can see what you are getting at and agree that there has been a lamentable lack of comment on the Ship about the 150 Kenyans murdered by radical Islamists just a few weeks ago.
But please don't lump me into your knee-jerk reaction against the 'lefties' and liberals you take to be so selective in their judgements.
The issue is, how do we go about resolving these problems?
Steve Langton's solution would be for all to become Anabaptist-like in our approach, thereby giving off signals to IS and other radical jihadists that we have nothing to do with the legacy of Western imperialism.
Nice idea, but I don't see it cutting much ice even if it were feasible.
What's your solution?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The problem with solutions offered by the West is that they may make things worse. Another problem is that the Middle East is going through a perfect storm - yes, the long unravelling of colonialism, but also the after-shocks of the highly corrupt and vicious secular regimes, of which Assad is the survivor, and the machinations of the Saudis and Iran, the effects of the invasion of Iraq, and no doubt other factors. Solutions easily turn into further problems.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, the problems are intricate and probably intractable - but there has to be something that the international community as a whole can do.
Offering more visas to Iraqi Christians is one thing, but surely there must be some way to help Yazidis, Christians and other religious minorities to remain in their own ancestral homelands?
I don't have much time for the Maronite Christians of the Lebanon, I'm afraid, they were just as vicious as the Druze and other militia during the Lebanese civil war ... but it was interesting, and quite startling, to hear a prominent member of the Druze saying that it was vital for the Druze to defend the Christians and other minorities in the interests of maintaining a diverse society.
It's in nobody's interests - but the extreme jihadists - to tolerate the actions of IS.
I agree with Kaplan to some extent, that radical Islam can be an embarrassment to western liberalism as the more leftward leaning tendency is to disparage Israel and western intervention in the region. This can, of course, play into the hands of the Islamo-fascists and jihadists.
There must be another way.
The Peshmerga seem committed to defending the Christian and other minorities, as they see a religiously and ethnically diverse Kurdistan as a desirable state of affairs. But then, the Turks and others are equally as wary of the Peshmerga ... the whole thing is highly complex and not reducible to knee-jerk solutions from either left or right.
Whilst the Saudis and other repressive, Sunni regions continue to bank-roll radical jihadists then the problems will continue and will escalate.
I'm not a great fan of Western intervention - and I was opposed to the invasion of Iraq. However, we are already embroiled. I'd like to see some action taken to curb the monster that is Saudi Arabia - not military action, but some kind of moral or economic pressure - but that's not going to happen as we've all got our noses pressed firmly into the Saudi oil trough.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think actually it has been in the interests of some of the Sunni tribes to tolerate IS; this is part of the very difficult political situation, where large chunks of the Sunni triangle are using IS as a kind of blackmail against Baghdad. No doubt, negotiations are ongoing about this; whether or not the West can help here is unclear. It might make things worse; on the other hand, the US did help in the anti-AQ alliances (Awakening). But also military action may well reduce IS, but perhaps they are one head of the hydra.
[ 19. April 2015, 11:30: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Apologies if I have missed it, but I don't think there has been a single reference on the Ship to the 150 targetted Christians murdered recently in Kenya by al-Shabab, an omission which would be unthinkable had they been the members of any other religious group killed by Christians.
I didn't see any posts about it by you, so I suppose by that measure you didn't think it was all that important either.
You have now.
No, I think I still haven't. This comes two weeks after the attack, and only in the context of complaining about how other people don't seem to be sufficiently outraged. With a side helping of imagining their reactions to a counterfactual in which the identities of killers and victims were switched. The actual Kenyan attack seems only incidental to your criticism of the attitudes of your fellow posters on Ship of Fools.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, quetzatcoatl, the situation is very complicated and the Sunnis in Iraq had been on the receiving end of some flak from the Shia's.
I don't think military action is the solution, although to some extent I'd favour limited military action in order to contain IS and protect minorities from their ravages until such time as some kind of equilibrium can be found - or at least something approaching that kind of 'steady state'. I make no bones about that, although I am aware of the difficulties.
Something has to be done to contain IS, although I would agree that they are just one head of a hydra.
The way things are at the moment, it looks like they have been effectively contained in Kurdistan by the Peshmerga, with some US air-strike support - and possibly in the Lebanon, where they have made some incursions.
Combating IS on the ground in Syria and Northern Iraq is just part of it, though, they obviously have the capacity to spring up elsewhere as they did in Libya - and as Kaplan has reminded us, be fair, they aren't the only group of this kind - there's Boko Haram in Nigeria and Al-Shabab in Somalia and goodness knows how many others in the offing ...
So, what is the solution?
It has to come from within the Islamic communities themselves. They aren't all suddenly going to become Anabaptists or nice, godly, peaceful evangelical Christians - which is what some here seem to believe to be the only viable solution.
There are instances of radical Muslims becoming more moderate in their approach. For the longer haul, there has to be adjustment, education and some kind of dialogue.
The trouble is, it's as hard to negotiate with fanatics as it is to 'reduce' them by bumping them off ... which only creates more martyrs and exacerbates the problem.
How do you even begin to start reasoning with these people?
I have no idea.
Containing them to some extent has to be one of the options, but longer term ... I don't know. What with global warming, water-wars and renewed tension between East and West we seem to be heading for a bumpy ride ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You responded to Martin that you should care because the persecuted are Christian. It is caring only about one's own that is part of the problem in that region.
IMO, we should care about everyone that is being persecuted there. It is my opinion that Jesus would.
Yes, we should, but I tend to be a bit suspicious of those who imply that we should not care especially about our own because we should care for everyone. We don't take that line with our own families. We would, rightly, abhor somebody who did. And saying we ought to care about everyone or humanity in the abstract, is alas all too often an excuse for not really caring about anyone at all in the concrete.
As a Buddhist, I'd imagine your sympathies would go out particularly to fellow Buddhists who were suffering. You would feel 'this could be happening to me'. That is right, not in some inchoate way vaguely reprehensible.
I agree also, that it's a pity, if this is the case, if no one on the Ship has expressed any fellow feeling hitherto for the Christians martyred in Kenya. But not putting down on electronic paper ones feelings about one outrage is not a valid reason for complaining when somebody does say something about another.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Enoch,
Yes, it is natural to feel special sympathy for those we consider like us. And I am in no way amongst those who would say all or none.
But this does not mean it is not valid to remind people what the true scope of concern should be.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Apologies if I have missed it, but I don't think there has been a single reference on the Ship to the 150 targetted Christians murdered recently in Kenya by al-Shabab, an omission which would be unthinkable had they been the members of any other religious group killed by Christians.
It was in the prayer thread ASAP.
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Where has anyone been martyred for righteousness' sake (for the sake of sacrificial social justice, kindness, mercy, charity, peace making)? Where has anyone been reviled and persecuted and had all kinds of evil said against them falsely for His sake in any way beyond tribal markings?
I worry about those who worry about those worrying about ... worrying.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Their deaths don't matter because they weren't technically martyrs for their faith? Not sure how you can justify that attitude.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not sure how you can justify beating your wife.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I would like to suggest that resorting to tribal loyalties in response to beheadings and other atrocities committed by IS and al-Shabab is falling into the narrative that is exactly what they want. In their black-white world, they want all Muslims to be on the side of their extremism and all Christians to respond with hate and war. It seems to be that the obvious end result is that they want a regional clash of dogma and civilisation.
Complaining that Christian brethren have been forgotten on these boards is a) probably not true but b) even if it is true proves nothing. Loads of things are going on in the world all the time, is there really an argument to be made that everything always has to be discussed here that impacts on any Christian?
I don't believe that there is any particular bias towards discussing violence committed by Christians over that committed by Muslims - in fact I'd say like everywhere else the tendency is always to equate terrorism with Islam.
The Copts who have been massacred by IS in recent days should be remembered, of course they should. But not for narrow tribal reasons (and, let's not forget that the Copts (sometimes) take a very narrow view about other Christian's salvation. The whole business of associating ourselves with massacred religious brethren is complicated and messy.)
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
... The whole business of associating ourselves with massacred religious brethren is complicated and messy. ...
Is it? Persuade me.
In my experience, a lot of the cases where people have argued that the morality of an issue is complicated, it actually isn't. It just happens to point in the way they don't want it to go. That has certainly been the case with many issues of personal morality where people have alleged this.
Under what circumstance is massacring people OK?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Apologies if I have missed it, but I don't think there has been a single reference on the Ship to the 150 targetted Christians murdered recently in Kenya by al-Shabab, an omission which would be unthinkable had they been the members of any other religious group killed by Christians.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't see any posts about it by you, so I suppose by that measure you didn't think it was all that important either.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You have now.
I was personally very affected by the Garissa attack for reasons I won't go into here. I've been in deep despair about it frankly. I just didn't feel moved to post about it on an internet board. So fuck that metric for demonstrating how much I might care about those murders.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I was personally very affected by the Garissa attack for reasons I won't go into here. I've been in deep despair about it frankly. I just didn't feel moved to post about it on an internet board. So fuck that metric for demonstrating how much I might care about those murders.
Well said. Thank you. Why does it have to be assumed that we have to emote publicly about everything or that unless we do, we don't care?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yow too our Enoch! Beating your wife I see.
I'm sorry for your distress mdijon.
[ 19. April 2015, 17:10: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Under what circumstance is massacring people OK?
Excuse me?
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arse
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