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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless.
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
John Chap 6 has Jesus saying something that looks like Platonic dualism. There, I know enough philosophy (that is, just next to diddly-squat) to make that proposition and to find it vaguely uncomfortable and maybe a bit gnostic. Get me.
So a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and certainly does not equip one to brave the web and dig around in theology papers. Would anyone like to go gently with me and suggest how folks interpret this in a way which does not actually denigrate God's good creation?
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Feeling a bit off-color here, but I'll chime in before going back to bed.
First problem with that verse is "spirit." We can't be sure whether it's referring to spirit in general or to the Holy Spirit, that is, God. Which is a pretty big distinction!
But I think you're more concerned with the contrast between "flesh" (sarx) and "spirit" (pneuma) as set up here and a bunch of other places.
"Flesh" can mean a lot of things, and "human meat and skin" is the least of it. (though it does occur, and in this very passage later, too. Usually though the more neutral term soma is used for the body.)
Usually the term "flesh" (sarx) is used as a --is it a metonymy, folks?--the thing where you use one part to stand for the whole thingy. So in this case, "flesh" stands for the whole human nature--which includes the body, but more notably the human will, mind, heart, and yes, spirit. It isn't making a basic, simple distinction between the physical and the nonphysical. Instead it's making a distinction between the natural and the supernatural. So human will, heart, mind, spirit all fall under "flesh", being merely natural in origin; and are all alike useless when it comes to accomplishing God's work (here, giving life).
In this contrast, "spirit" then would refer to the things of God--the Holy Spirit, yes, but also the qualities we sometimes call grace, mercy, salvation, life, and so forth.
That's your basic divide, and it runs through the whole NT. Must think on whether it's in the OT too, not feeling up to it right now...
Notice that sometimes "flesh" is used in a pretty innocent sense, like here. Here "flesh" is not necessarily evil, just weak. But in other places you'll find it used with a focus on its corrupted-ness--so much so that "flesh" becomes a kind of synonym for "sinful nature" or even "sin" straight out.
You have to keep an eye on the context to figure out which of these related meanings is on offer.
And you can't even say it's always got a negative spin to it--In this same passage Jesus says he is giving his flesh, sarx, for the life of the world. This is certainly entirely good and innocent, and the focus here is on the fact that his human nature is running the show on the cross--the human body, blood, heart, mind, and life that makes it possible for the God-Man to die.
Have fun picking your way through the maze! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Need to go put my own sarx in bed.
[ 22. August 2015, 19:24: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
One of the NT authors (somewhere) also makes a distinction between the "old man" of flesh and the "new man" of spirit. Jesus makes the distinction between being born of the flesh and being born ("again") of the spirit (in John 3). He goes on to speak of being born "of water and the Spirit" which perfectly parallels what John the Forerunner says, viz. "I baptise with water but one stands among you who will baptise with the Holy Spirit."
Therefore "flesh" seems (to me) in these passages to mean "merely human" -- what we are before baptism with the Holy Spirit. "Merely" flesh. But when we are grafted into God, when human nature is united with divine nature, we are thereby united with the Spirit. Before: flesh. After: Spirit. This spirit gives us life in a way we didn't have beforehand, when we were merely human.
So it's not some kind of dualism -- we are not half flesh and half spirit, as in the later (neo) Platonists. We're not a soul trapped in a body. Rather we are born "flesh," body and soul, but are united to Spirit through Christ.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Goodness me...when am I going to know anything? ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I've been hanging out with RCs, and quite a lot of what I could find on the web on all this seemed to be a defence of RC Eucharistic thought, which was not at all what I was looking for. Thanks for being my go-to prods ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I was reading tomorrow's lesson to help my wife prepare Sunday school - we're a bit late this week. Having to teach something, even to small kids, is a real impetus to wanting to feel clear about it oneself.
LC - hope your sarx (a word belonging to Dr Seuss if ever there was one) responds well to sleep!
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Thanks for being my go-to prods
Ahem.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I wish it had--my rest was rudely invaded by knee-high munchkins intent on throwing stuffed animals at each other. On the positive side, my sarx appears to have resolved most of its, er, internal issues. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
And yes, sarx is definitely a Dr. Seuss word! Thank you for putting your finger on it--it's been bothering me for years!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Thanks for being my go-to prods
Ahem.
MT, I think he meant "prods" as in "cattle."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Thanks for being my go-to prods
Ahem.
MT, I think he meant "prods" as in "cattle."
I see.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
What John the author meant in 6:63 (“The Spirit is the life-giving one; the flesh is of no benefit”) is most likely determined by what he had been saying up to that point. I think the key is in 6:26, after the feeding of 5,000. The large crowd follows Jesus around the lake to Capernaum and having found him Jesus said to them, “You are looking for me not because you saw miraculous signs, but because you ate all the loaves of bread you wanted.”
The focus here is partly about motivation, but mainly about the aim the people had. They wanted food; the one who provided that food was doing what senior partners in a covenant relationship should be doing and so this person (Jesus) must be their king – whether he liked it or not (6:15).
Jesus' response to this misplaced aim (and the motivations and objectives in support of that aim) was to draw a comparison with the people's wilderness wanderings, and to do what he did best – wrestle the Jewish scriptures back from false interpretations (6:31-32, 45-46). It seems here that 'flesh' refers to the motivations that drive a human towards an aim. For the people it was provision of basic necessities in a stable environment, for the central authorities it was about the credentials of anyone claiming to be appointed by God for a purpose. For Jesus, 'flesh' was his bending of his will away from a selfish desire to stay alive and toward completing his Father's commission (the Spirit's anointing) – something of an amalgamation of the aims of people and authorities.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
hey, I'm really sorry for the lazy denominational presumption. Round here there's only prods (dying mainliners like me; African pentecostals) or RCs to choose from.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Mark, we're just messing with you. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) By most definitions of the word I'd be counted a protestant (Lutheran) though we have some arguments about whether the RC church left us or the other way around.
In fact, it seems to be quite the "in" thing to deny being protestant in favor of some esoteric identity. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
I'll go play in traffic now.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
In fact, it seems to be quite the "in" thing to deny being protestant in favor of some esoteric identity.
We weren't Protestants before it was cool not to be Protestant. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
The other dimension to the language of 'spirit' in the New Testament, was that it was one of the key markers of the 'New Age'™.
See, for example, Joel 2, or Ezekiel 36.
The old age was the age of the mortal, sinful flesh (the Age of Law-on-stone that God's people failed to obey), but the new age, the messianic age was to be characterised by the pouring out of the Spirit of God onto all the people of God - leading them into true obedience, a blessed life, and a restored relationship with God. It was to be the Age of the Spirit.
(Note in this context John the Baptist's preaching that the one who comes after him was to baptise with the Holy Spirit - he was signaling the imminent arrival of the Messianic Age).
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
To me Jesus is the personification of God's spirit interacting with humans in the flesh, so to speak.
In Jesus God has chosen to demonstrate a kinship with all of us flesh and blood types and to make it clear that we too can find the Holy Spirit in ourselves by following Jesus.
I say find because I believe that all of us have the spirit of God within us; it is just that we choose to ignore it most of the time in favor of more flesh - material things. We seek flesh in sex and sexual attraction without the spirit component of commitment to another person and a sharing of ourselves. We seek wealth, or power. We even decide that we can think and rule our way into heaven.
Jesus is then saying in a broader context that things of the flesh are good (He was flesh and good) and at the same time incomplete. That a true connection with God cannot be achieved by centering on the things of this world, or by the power of our own brains. A true connection with God can only come by surrendering ourselves to our greater existence in God's spirit that connects us to God and to all of God's creation.
There you go, a protestant non-scholar understanding.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmmm ... and arguably also non-classically Protestant too, Tortuf ... as what you've said could be construed as rather weak on the kind of classic Trinitarianism that Protestantism initially absorbed from the earlier and more Catholic traditions.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I feel suitably chagrined.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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