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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: If you enjoy worship, is it worship?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Apparently, some people actually enjoy listening to worship music. I might struggle with this, but then some people like One Direction, so apparently I shouldn't be surprised.
But it raises the question as to whether, for such people, the singing part of worship is anything other than a pleasant sing-along. Like I might sing enjoy a rock classics cover band, say. Is a sing-along actually worship?
And I know that worship is not just singing, but the same might apply to the rest of it. If it is enjoyable, something we might do ourselves how is this worship?
And if it is, why isn't my chat down the pub* just as much worship? Why do I have to go somewhere I don't enjoy being at to worship**.
*Wine bar, free drinks at a wedding. Whatever.
** TBH, I don't any more, but the question is still valid.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Worship is anything and everything we do which both acknowledges God and shows appreciation of God at the least, love of and/or awe of God in its greater expression.
It should be something we enjoy.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Read some of the Methodist hymns - they are loaded with theology.
We remember songs long after sermons have faded and been forgotten.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I used to play a bit of third team club rugby many years ago. Weekly appointments with cold, wet, windswept fields with the only spectator often being the referee. Over hearing a conversation in the changing room afterwards, one chap said to the other, -- 'I don't know why, but I always feel better for playing'. The other replied 'I wouldn't play at all if I didn't '.
That is how I view worship even though I nolonger go to church every week. Personally I'm not over keen on modern worship songs but accept many of the old hymn dirges have had their day.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The idea that we shouldn't enjoy worship (however defined) is strange. Surely the praise we offer to God should come from the heart, and not just the lips?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The idea that we shouldn't enjoy worship (however defined) is strange. Surely the praise we offer to God should come from the heart, and not just the lips?
I agree.
One of my biggest surprises when I lived in West Africa was the extent to which people there loved their worship services. There was honestly nothing in the world they would rather do. It was totally the highlight of their week.
There is nothing that explains the success of Christianity in that part of the world more clearly than this.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And if it is, why isn't my chat down the pub* just as much worship?
Perhaps it is, depending what the chat is about.
quote:
Why do I have to go somewhere I don't enjoy being at to worship.
Well, I guess you don't have to. But even if worship infuses all of our lives, as is the goal I think, there is value in community and focused intention.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
I'd imagine a conversation at the pub could well be made to be worship, depending on it's nature. There is ample precedent for a meal being worship.
I'd imagine each of the 4 categories of fun/worship have representatives (almost certainly by a single person at different times, and different people at the same time, maybe even one person at the same time). Probably 8 combinations when you consider others intent, and a lot of blurred lines**.
So (even at 'worship' events) you probably do have some
"Oh that is an impressive rendering of Bach's Mass, the common people wouldn't get it"/"Hey at this Xian 90's pop, I get to be jumping near to sexy stranger", sing-along fun non-worship
But also some
"Hey, through this haunting polyphony, I really understand what Jesus was going through" / "Through the miked up rapping, I really understand how God feels about injustice" (of course the manipulation thread then comes in)
And (with many graduations between)
"Oh God, how do people enjoy this dull, old fashioned rubbish. Mind you, I hadn't thought of that, um I suspect that's actually heretical, dear god please help me understand what I should be doing"/"Oh God, how do people enjoy this dull, old fashioned rubbish*. Still..."
And of course
"This is dull, why did mum/dad make me go"
*sorry, couldn't resist. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
**No, not that
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And if it is, why isn't my chat down the pub* just as much worship?
Perhaps it is, depending what the chat is about.
quote:
Why do I have to go somewhere I don't enjoy being at to worship.
Well, I guess you don't have to. But even if worship infuses all of our lives, as is the goal I think, there is value in community and focused intention.
totally agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The idea that we shouldn't enjoy worship (however defined) is strange. Surely the praise we offer to God should come from the heart, and not just the lips?
I agree.
One of my biggest surprises when I lived in West Africa was the extent to which people there loved their worship services. There was honestly nothing in the world they would rather do. It was totally the highlight of their week.
There is nothing that explains the success of Christianity in that part of the world more clearly than this.
Yes, I've seen that too-- and worth noting that African worship often last 3-4 hours, and many people will walk up to an hour to get there. The last time I was teaching in central Africa, on one memorable morning I was awoken by worship that began around 6 am and did not finish until close to 10 pm (with a few meal breaks). All very very joyful, intergenerational, communal. There's no "compelling", no "ah, ma, do a gotta?" This is where they want to be.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
SvitlanaV2: quote:
The idea that we shouldn't enjoy worship (however defined) is strange.
Yeah, weird. "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord." Just not too joyful?
I don't attend services with modern worship music often. (I actually enjoy lovely old hymns; go figure.) But when I do, it can be refreshing and, yes, enjoyable.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
In some discussions various Shipmates have said you are not supposed to like going to church, that's what makes it a spiritual discipline. In real life people active in church and on vestry have responded to my "church is boring" with "church is boring but you have to go."
Maybe one reason churches aren't attracting more people these days is that church is (for many of us) boring and inaccurately teaches by that example "God is boring." Unfortunately, the vestry members who agreed with me church is boring think it's supposed to be boring.
Something's wrong with how we express worship if it's boring.
Yes singing along can be just a singalong, and reciting the lords prayer can be just empty words, and sermon time can be daydreaming, but a word or phrase or a line from a song will sometimes catch attention in a new way, open the door to God awareness - whether in church or in conversation in the pub.
The question is how to trigger that God awareness more often in life, and in gatherings to worship.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The last time I was teaching in central Africa, on one memorable morning I was awoken by worship that began around 6 am and did not finish until close to 10 pm (with a few meal breaks). All very very joyful, intergenerational, communal. There's no "compelling", no "ah, ma, do a gotta?" This is where they want to be.
Which begs the question, "Why?" Is it that the good folk there are engaging with more heart and soul than the average European or American congregation? Are they less begrudging of time spent in worship? Is the rest of life so boring that worship is the one highpoint? Do they have a more lively and deeply-felt faith? Do they have more of a sense of worship as "communal event"? Have they found a worship style that is more fun? .... etc., etc.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
We are enjoined to love God with all our mind, soul, heart and strength. My understanding is that worship is intended to give glory to God and to refresh all of these elements. Surely, the more deeply worship engages, the more glory it gives, and the more intensely it achieves these aims too?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Orthodoxen never tire of telling the story of the emissaries that St. Vladimir the Great (ruler of Kievan Rus' in the 10th/11th centuries, called by us "Enlightener of the Rus" or "Enlightener of Russia") sent out in 987.
They visited Catholic, Muslim, and Orthodox countries, both with an eye toward political alliance, but also to observe their worship.
When they observed the Divine Liturgy in the Church of Holy Wisdom (Hagia Sophia) in Constantinople they sent back this report:
"We no longer knew whether we were in heaven or on earth... nor such beauty, and we know not how to tell of it."
We tend to feel that offering beautiful worship is a gift to God. Why not give our best? Boring worship is an affront to God.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
some catechism says we should 'enjoy Him foR ever.'
Indeed, not just that we should, but that is our chief end.
It's the Westminster Shorter Catechism.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I agree. But does "enjoy" in the Catechism have exactly the same meaning as its common usage today?
I ask this because one "model trust deed" for Baptist church buildings states that "The Trustees shall permit the said premises ... to be used occupied and enjoyed ...as a place of Public Worship for the service of Almighty God". I suspect that "enjoyed" here reflects a more archaic and legal meaning of the word, even though the trust deed itself is 20th-century.
[ 21. August 2016, 14:53: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
C.S. Lewis doesn't seem to have had a hang-up about enjoying worship.
Well, sort of... he could also be quite curmudgeonly about congregational singing:
quote:
"What we want to know is whether untrained communal singing is in itself any more edifying than other popular pleasures. And of this I, for one, am still wholly unconvinced. I have often heard this noise; I have sometimes contributed to it. I do not yet seem to have found any evidence that the physical and emotional exhilaration which it produces is necessarily, or often, of any religious relevance. What I, like many other laymen, chiefly desire in church are fewer, better, and shorter hymns; especially fewer." —CS Lewis in Christian Reflections p. 96.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The last time I was teaching in central Africa, on one memorable morning I was awoken by worship that began around 6 am and did not finish until close to 10 pm (with a few meal breaks). All very very joyful, intergenerational, communal. There's no "compelling", no "ah, ma, do a gotta?" This is where they want to be.
Which begs the question, "Why?" Is it that the good folk there are engaging with more heart and soul than the average European or American congregation? Are they less begrudging of time spent in worship? Is the rest of life so boring that worship is the one highpoint? Do they have a more lively and deeply-felt faith? Do they have more of a sense of worship as "communal event"? Have they found a worship style that is more fun? .... etc., etc.
Indeed. This would probably make a good doctoral thesis for somebody to unpack all the possibilities. From my somewhat limited experience, I'd probably guess: "yes". As in "all of the above." It certainly is a far far more communal culture so that's a huge element, as well as just the necessity to find joy in the ordinary. In some ways the joy I observed in worship services is not that different than the joy I observed everyday watching women interacting at the water hole-- engaging in long, tedious, repetitious work of washing clothes, filling water jugs, caring for kids-- yet doing it together and therefore finding joy in the talking the listening the laughing of community.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I agree. But does "enjoy" in the Catechism have exactly the same meaning as its common usage today?
I ask this because one "model trust deed" for Baptist church buildings states that "The Trustees shall permit the said premises ... to be used occupied and enjoyed ...as a place of Public Worship for the service of Almighty God". I suspect that "enjoyed" here reflects a more archaic and legal meaning of the word, even though the trust deed itself is 20th-century.
So are you suggesting the Westminster is telling us that man's aim is to "have use or benefit of" God? That's the debased meaning in the trust deed (debased from the etymological "find joy in"). It seems more likely that the catechism means just what it seems to mean to those unfamiliar with the utilitarian meaning.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That's an interesting discussion.
The equivalent word in French is jouir, which can and is used in property-related documents to mean "have the benefit of".
And also means "have an orgasm".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's an interesting discussion.
The equivalent word in French is jouir, which can and is used in property-related documents to mean "have the benefit of".
And also means "have an orgasm".
So if you don't enjoy it, is it really orgasm?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So are you suggesting the Westminster is telling us that man's aim is to "have use or benefit of" God?
Of course not. But I am saying that the nuanced meaning of the word may have changed slightly since the Confession was written, so its idea of "enjoyment" may not be quite the same as ours.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry, but here comes one of my both/ands not either/ors ...
It's a truism that what bores some people excites others. I have an uncle by marriage whose hobby is beetles. I'm glad he's interested in beetles but don't really want to sit down with him and discuss them for hours on end - although I'm sure I'd enjoy doing so as he started to expound some fascinating facts about the little fellas ...
I've been to the annual conference of the Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius this week. I found it heavier going than previously but worthwhile overall.
For those of you who don't know it's an ecumenical fellowship/conference to encourage dialogue and understanding between Eastern and Western Churches.
One of the priests who leads the Orthodox worship at the conference does so at a fair old lick - almost like a racing commentary or one of those rural cattle-market auctions ...
During one of the discussion times, one of the Orthodox delegates complained about this and noted how refreshing she'd found the slow, steady recitation of the Psalms antiphonally during the Anglican Evensong. It gave her space to reflect on the words.
The next morning, lo and behold, the Orthodox slowed down their Liturgy (although one or two prayers were rattled through at breakneck speed) and it was a thing of beauty and a delight to be present.
Back in the day, I'd have found it incredibly boring. I won't have 'got' it. Of course, we can't ever 'get' anything in its entirety and certainly not when we are dealing with Mystery and the numinous.
One of the things that struck me was how, when one of the choir went forward to receive Communion her face glowed with a kind of inner contentment and radiance. Talking to her later, I realised that she thoroughly 'enjoyed' her Orthodoxy in a very holistic way - the Feasts and fasts, the annual round of services, the words of particular hymns and prayers ...
Of course, we can find Methodists, Anglicans, evangelicals, Pentecostals, RCs, Copts and any and everyone else who would reflect a deep sense of joy and fulfilmnent in their own expression of faith - regardless of whether anyone else found it 'boring' or not.
This isn't to suggest that anything goes and that it's all subjective - far from it - but it is to acknowledge that these things operate on a 'soul' level and their paths are past tracing out.
I used to enjoy listening to cassette tapes (remember those?) of worship songs and choruses. I wouldn't do so now. That isn't to disparage the 'me' who did so at that time. That's where I was at and I found them helpful and meaningful.
I do so no longer but that doesn't mean that they don't remain helpful and meaningful to anyone else.
Worship can be hard work. It isn't always enjoyable. Whatever the tradition though, if it is true that the 'Whole Duty of Man' means that we 'enjoy him forever' then surely that means that we find some kind of joy and fulfilment in those things that are 'means' (to use an old Puritan phrase) that point us towards him.
None of these things are ends in themselves.
They point beyond themselves to the One who is the source of all joy and peace.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I agree. But does "enjoy" in the Catechism have exactly the same meaning as its common usage today?
I ask this because one "model trust deed" for Baptist church buildings states that "The Trustees shall permit the said premises ... to be used occupied and enjoyed ...as a place of Public Worship for the service of Almighty God". I suspect that "enjoyed" here reflects a more archaic and legal meaning of the word, even though the trust deed itself is 20th-century.
So are you suggesting the Westminster is telling us that man's aim is to "have use or benefit of" God? That's the debased meaning in the trust deed (debased from the etymological "find joy in"). It seems more likely that the catechism means just what it seems to mean to those unfamiliar with the utilitarian meaning.
I really can't believe I let others beat me to quoting the Westminster Shorter Catechism. Those from whom I learned it would be disappointed. I came back because I realized my omission. Oh well.
The legal meaning of "enjoy"/"enjoyment" is to have a right to use or benefit of for the purpose of deriving pleasure or satisfaction. It is related to the more usual use, though I have little doubt that the Westminster Divines had the more obvious meaning in mind—to find joy in glorifying God.
BTW, the answer to Q1 is on my in-laws' gravestone.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So are you suggesting the Westminster is telling us that man's aim is to "have use or benefit of" God?
Of course not. But I am saying that the nuanced meaning of the word may have changed slightly since the Confession was written, so its idea of "enjoyment" may not be quite the same as ours.
If so then it has changed back to the earlier meaning, and the meaning at the time of the confession was a temporary (and apparently unrecorded) aberration of the flow of the meaning of the word. Certainly there is nothing to suggest such a temporary change at etymonline, nor in my copy of the OED.
You seem to be inventing an unrecorded meaning of the word, apparently to avoid the simple and straightforward meaning of the text. There is absolutely no reason to believe it means anything other than what it says to our 21st century ears: we are meant to find joy in God.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Worship can be hard work. It isn't always enjoyable. Whatever the tradition though, if it is true that the 'Whole Duty of Man' means that we 'enjoy him forever' then surely that means that we find some kind of joy and fulfilment in those things that are 'means' (to use an old Puritan phrase) that point us towards him.
Right, but should it be expected to not be enjoyable? That seems to be the question raised in the OP. Some people, apparently, believe worship ought to be dreary, or it's not worship (hence the thread title). I don't see that you've spoken to this question.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
In some discussions various Shipmates have said you are not supposed to like going to church, that's what makes it a spiritual discipline. In real life people active in church and on vestry have responded to my "church is boring" with "church is boring but you have to go."
Maybe one reason churches aren't attracting more people these days is that church is (for many of us) boring and inaccurately teaches by that example "God is boring." Unfortunately, the vestry members who agreed with me church is boring think it's supposed to be boring.
I don't think there's any 'maybe' about it; boring, unengaging, uninspiring church worship has driven many people away from British churches over the past century, and such worship is going to do nothing to attract the unchurched in the century to come.
This isn't to say that 'enjoying worship' should mean the same thing to everyone, or that it's all about a particular worship style.
Regarding cliffdweller and Baptist Trainfan's comments about joyful worship in central Africa, I'm sure more could be said about particular African countries and cultures, but quite a lot has already been written about 'African spirituality', AFAIUI. What we know less about, it seems, is the kinds of spiritual expression which are meaningful and appealing to people in the secular West, especially in Europe.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Indeed, not just that we should, but that is our chief end.
It's the Westminster Shorter Catechism.
Curious isn't it, that St Ignatius says something very similar at the start of his Spiritual Exercises,
quote:
"Man was created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord and in this way to save his soul".
Incidentally, is the OP really saying that it's wrong to enjoy worshipping? Or is a version of 'they will know we are disciples by our disapproval one for another'?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I should point out this is in purg because I wanted genuine discussion, so this is good. I actually don't think, instinctively, that worship should be a chore. But I also wonder if for some people it is no more than a singalong session - more importantly, what is the difference? What is worship, and what is a singalong?
And there is nothing wrong with having a good sing song. I am going to Greenbelt this weekend, and hope to have an enjoyable time. I hope to worship, somewhere (probably not at the Sunday service though).
It was an attempt to raise a question that probably comes down to "what is worship?", and how does it differ from having a good time?
I suppose it is also raised by me because I am not with the Quakers. I don't think I "enjoy" spending an hour in silence, but it is a special time, when I often get to be with God, and I feel better when I return, I feel more spiritually engaged. So have I worshipped? Probably.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
If it ain't painful, it ain't holy
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Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
If it ain't painful, it ain't holy
So heaven will be hell.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Presumably, worship is in some way significantly directed towards God. It is pointed upwards. Whereas a singalong is just a singalong - enjoying the music, the experience, feeling cheerful or being with other people.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
This is where they want to be.
Which begs the question, "Why?"
Indeed. This would probably make a good doctoral thesis for somebody to unpack all the possibilities. From my somewhat limited experience, I'd probably guess: "yes". As in "all of the above."
In agreement with cliffdweller, I would also add that there is an interest in God and religion in West Africa that is amazing. I often observed people getting emotional at the very thought of God. Religious topics attract people's wholehearted attention.
I also observed that people in West Africa are more credulous than Westerners. This of course has its downside as well.
As to the form of worship, the long services are punctuated with a tremendous amount of very loud singing, often accompanied by a kind of dancing where people file out row by row and parade around the room. Then there is a punchy, engaging sermonette. Then more singing. Then another sermonette. It varies a lot, of course, from group to group. Catholic services in my village were actually very similar to Catholic services in my community here in Pennsylvania.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'd be a lot more impressed about the religious enthusiasm of west Africans if it didn't also include killing gays.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Worship can be hard work. It isn't always enjoyable. Whatever the tradition though, if it is true that the 'Whole Duty of Man' means that we 'enjoy him forever' then surely that means that we find some kind of joy and fulfilment in those things that are 'means' (to use an old Puritan phrase) that point us towards him.
Duty? It's not the "duty of man" to glorify God and enjoy God forever, at least according to the Westminster Shorter Catechism, which is what I assume you're referring to. Glorifying and enjoying God forever is "man's chief end"—what we were made for, our destiny.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok, I was mixing up my references. It's a good while since I read the Westminster Shorter Catechism.
I also didn't 'speak to' the issue MT raises.
Anyway, surely there's a lot of subjectivity in our assessment of what is or isn't 'boring'. I'd be in heaven in cathedral worship, but New Wine style charismatic worship would bore my butt off.
Thing is, though, the OP seems to suggest that worship is all about singing. It isn't.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Thing is, though, the OP seems to suggest that worship is all about singing. It isn't.
Well, that and preaching. Which if not boring seems to be so purely by accident.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's an interesting discussion.
The equivalent word in French is jouir, which can and is used in property-related documents to mean "have the benefit of".
And also means "have an orgasm".
Now that's an interesting line of thought. Having observed people singing modern worship songs, I would certainly say that they are not just having a 'sing-song', in fact they feel their relationship with God very intensely. But sometimes (just sometimes) that intensity does rather look like they are 'getting off' on it!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
If you don't enjoy worship, is it really worship? This depends, of course, on "enjoy". Ideally, we should find joy in worship, but that is different from saying that hard pews are comfortable or that all contemporary worship music is inspiring or that sermons always make sense. Can you experience joy even though you are physically or intellectually uncomfortable? I suspect this depends on the individual.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Thing is, though, the OP seems to suggest that worship is all about singing. It isn't.
I quite explicitly said that it wasn't.
The same issue applies to other areas of worship. If you find it enjoyable, if it is something you would do outside of church, what is it really about?
I guess the issue is as much about what makes something worship, not just yourself having fun?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Thing is, though, the OP seems to suggest that worship is all about singing. It isn't.
I quite explicitly said that it wasn't.
The same issue applies to other areas of worship. If you find it enjoyable, if it is something you would do outside of church, what is it really about?
I guess the issue is as much about what makes something worship, not just yourself having fun?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I guess the issue is as much about what makes something worship, not just yourself having fun?
So true.
The whole concept of "worship" is that it is about something that we absolutely adore. There are lots of things that not only seem interesting and attractive to us, but that we love, agree with, want to be close to, want to be associated with, want to hear, and want to follow and obey.
At least I think there are. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
In any case, things and people who are idolized attract crowds, their words are savored, their suggestions are heeded.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I actually don't think, instinctively, that worship should be a chore. But I also wonder if for some people it is no more than a singalong session - more importantly, what is the difference? What is worship, and what is a singalong?
And there is nothing wrong with having a good sing song.
Some people who experience it as a sing-a-long may eventually gain a much deeper understanding of what they're singing about. Moreover, they may pick up ideas from the non-singing parts of the service.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's an interesting discussion.
The equivalent word in French is jouir, which can and is used in property-related documents to mean "have the benefit of".
And also means "have an orgasm".
Now that's an interesting line of thought. Having observed people singing modern worship songs, I would certainly say that they are not just having a 'sing-song', in fact they feel their relationship with God very intensely. But sometimes (just sometimes) that intensity does rather look like they are 'getting off' on it!
You mean like this ?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Something's wrong with how we express worship if it's boring.
If we're bored worshiping, what must it be like for God having to listen?
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I guess the issue is as much about what makes something worship, not just yourself having fun?
What would you estimate the difference to be between "finding joy" and "enjoying oneself" and "having fun"?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If you find [worship] enjoyable, if it is something you would do outside of church, what is it really about?
You write as if everything we do outside of church is fun, therefore what we do inside church ought to be different from that. It's an interesting assumption. Probably cultural.
Consider, though, that everyday life may be full of fun for you, but for other people, church may be where they go to experience something better.
Moreover, the notion that Sunday worship should represent a completely different experience from what happens the rest of the week is also cultural. In mainstream, traditional Western contexts churchgoing is to some degree still envisioned as a moderately serious, cerebral event, having as little in common with the banality, passion and physicality of the rest of ours lives as possible.
Many of us on this website probably lean in this direction, but we need to realise that our religion doesn't have to be like that for everyone. Jesus said nothing about separating worship from life, or making church a cerebral experience. That's our choice, and some of us 'enjoy' it, but there's nothing inevitable about it.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
A thought:
'Worship' is the rendering to someone or something of what is due to them - what they are 'worth'. In Heaven we will all experience the perfect worship of God. The Saved will enjoy it - for Eternity. The Damned will be bored by it - for Eternity.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
If it ain't painful, it ain't holy
I remember being told as a child that if I liked the taste of medicine, it didn't do me any good.
Seems like a similar philosophy.
(Joesaphat, I suspect you are being tongue-in-cheek, but some people do actually think like that).
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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