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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Change and Nostalgia in All Around I See
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Exeter Cathedral has given up Sunday Mattins. Not sure how many other Cathedrals have done so.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps now that churches are joining together in groups, it would be more possible for each church to have a specialism, in addition to a main Eucharistic service. For example, in the summer months, a rather special church - well known to tourists - has a weekly Evensong by gaslight. There is a small regular congregation, supplemented by tourists during the season. That church would probably find it hard to keep going without such a specialism, and would probably cease to be viable. I guess the trick is to discern what each church would be particularly good at, and to offer that - so there is variety across the whole group. I like the idea of one church being seen as having a particular mission to offer Mattins! After all, there might be another church, perhaps close to a school, which goes great guns for Messy Church....
A friend has blogged on a version of this idea
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re-Mattins - with plans to reduce further the number of stipendiary clergy, it might make a comeback here.
Currently we have two churches sharing a vicar. When he retires, we shall get one vicar for 3 churches. So it's likely that two churches would get a eucharist in the morning - 9.30 and 11. The other would get it at 6pm.
I can imagine us doing a full blown choral mattins (with a said with hymns HC in the evening)- we last did so during the interregnum and it was quire popular.
The unfortunate thing is that those churches most likely to be deprived of a Priest on a Sunday morning are those least likely to be able to do justice to full blown choral matins.
Maybe - but we are lucky in that we have the university choir (in term time anyway)
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Regarding the use of the BCP litany and miserable sinners I found it both amusing and nostalgic (from a mis-spent childhood in Anglican circles) to rediscover it in a certain parish northist of Auckland, NZ.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Does anyone still sing the BCP Litany? I miss that, too.Have mercy upon us, miserable sinners.
The emphasis had to be on the first syllable of 'miserable', milking it for all it was worth.
Before Sunday Sung Mass at St Michay's Croydon every Sunday in Lent.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
And the seasonal plainchant anthem of Our Lady and the Angelus at the end.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Change of tack
I think the biggest difference (other than for RCs or Orthodox) is not to do with the form of service, but an attitude.
When someone went to church abouot twenty years ago, they knew what they were getting, or if they didn’t, they got what was typically done. That would be so in most non-liturgical churches as well I imagine. In a liturgical communion, you got the lectionary. With luck, the service would be taken with imagination and pastoral sensitivity, but most of the content was set.
But nowadays worship leaders often can’t trust the congregation to accept the Usual Thing. The president seems like a compère or primary school teacher trying desperately to ingratiate her or himself with an uninformed and reluctant body of laity. The congregation spends much of the service sitting down passively. There is no sense at such a service that they are themselves essential participants actively taking part in a serious business. The whole thing ends up unconvincing because the leader clearly has no confidence in the service and has to placate, simplify and explain the whole time.
The sense we are taking part in something greater than our personal experience has been lost and with it the possibility of worship redeeming or challenging us.
And I can no longer rely on getting the lectionary.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
When someone went to church about twenty years ago, they knew what they were getting. . . . But nowadays worship leaders often can’t trust the congregation to accept the Usual Thing. . . . The congregation spends much of the service sitting down passively. There is no sense at such a service that they are themselves essential participants actively taking part in a serious business. . . . The sense we are taking part in something greater than our personal experience has been lost. . . .
But that's what it was like in pre-Vatican II RC churches. No one had any real idea of what was going on at the altar. All anyone cared about was doing something vaguely religious, like telling their beads or lighting candles in front of statues, while the priest and altar boys mumbled to themselves in Latin. We heard the gospel read in the vernacular, we got a sermon (either an appeal for money or a hellfire-and-brimstone diatribe against wishy-washy Catholics), we took communion (sometimes, that is), we maybe sang a hymn or two that had nothing to do with the day's commemoration, and that's about it.
Not that I long for those days -- although I do long for mass celebrated with a sense of decorum; fortunately it is still found in some churches.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Change of tack
I think the biggest difference (other than for RCs or Orthodox) is not to do with the form of service, but an attitude.
When someone went to church abouot twenty years ago, they knew what they were getting, or if they didn’t, they got what was typically done. That would be so in most non-liturgical churches as well I imagine. In a liturgical communion, you got the lectionary. With luck, the service would be taken with imagination and pastoral sensitivity, but most of the content was set.
But nowadays worship leaders often can’t trust the congregation to accept the Usual Thing. The president seems like a compère or primary school teacher trying desperately to ingratiate her or himself with an uninformed and reluctant body of laity. The congregation spends much of the service sitting down passively. There is no sense at such a service that they are themselves essential participants actively taking part in a serious business. The whole thing ends up unconvincing because the leader clearly has no confidence in the service and has to placate, simplify and explain the whole time.
The sense we are taking part in something greater than our personal experience has been lost and with it the possibility of worship redeeming or challenging us.
And I can no longer rely on getting the lectionary.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Well said, venbede! This needs to be said many times and said loudly, especially to those in the C of E who have convinced themselves that they are in the marketing business and need to convince as many people as possible that the tasteless fast-food they are selling is nutritious and wholesome. We need an ecclesiastical (not just ecclesiantical) Jamie Oliver.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Amanda - I'm sure you're right about your experience of pre-Vat 2 RC worship.
But what you didn't get was the apologetic attitude which comes across in the C of E all too often. "I'm a vicar, I know it's funny but don't kick me and I'll cut out as much of the boring bits as I can and eke it out with feeble jokes and reduce the gospel to sentimental platitudes, OK?"
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Venbede
You must have been to my local church (not where I go, at least not willingly) and heard the incumbent doing her own version of liturgy lite.
Quite apart from the attitude of "I'm so stressed, its so hard being a pastor for so many people (population of parish less than 2,400), aren't I cutely forgetful" the sermons plumb depths that would shame the average 12 year old.
I'm told that even the wardens are in discussion with the bishop and archdeacon to see what can be done...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
I can assure you none of that apologetic and self-serving bleurgh comes from my pad ... but I'd have to say though it's a caricature I hear from time to time, I doubt many of my colleagues perpetrate it either (though I admit in this corner of the woods liturgy is badly taught if taught at all in theological college).
On the other hand I doubt you'll be able to overthrow the vicar, either. Bombard him/her with tomes that highlight the value of liturgy as sacred drama and gospel tool.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I've wondering whether the "I'm so stressed...." plea means that the wrong people are now being chosen to be priests?? Are they the ones trying to escape or avoid other jobs deemed as stressful? the ones with least stamina, perhaps? Or is it that priests are expected to do more now? Something has changed, certainly. Perhaps it's that today's smaller vicarages don't have room for a train set chill-out zone?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I think the biggest difference (other than for RCs or Orthodox) is not to do with the form of service, but an attitude...
And I can no longer rely on getting the lectionary.
Can I ask why the Lectionary is so important to you? Granted it gives a good balanced framework for, and commentary to, the Christian year. That is especially true if different people are presiding and preaching from week to week.
But there are whole chunks of the Bible it never goes near. And what about the preacher, instead of grappling with an unresponsive set text, seeking the mind of the Spirit about what God might want to say to THIS congregation TODAY? A risky business, I agree ...
[ 17. March 2015, 16:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I've wondering whether the "I'm so stressed...." plea means that the wrong people are now being chosen to be priests?? Are they the ones trying to escape or avoid other jobs deemed as stressful? the ones with least stamina, perhaps? Or is it that priests are expected to do more now? Something has changed, certainly. Perhaps it's that today's smaller vicarages don't have room for a train set chill-out zone?
We have room for a train set. But I'd feel guilty spending all that money on one, and it's cold up there in the winter ... I do have some (non-running) model buses and trams, though.
Speaking seriously: I can't speak for the competence of priests. But it strikes me that they now have to cope with multiple parishes, possibly less lay help (that former army of housewives), increased expectations of professionalism, more form-filling and safeguarding ... allied (dare I say it?) to doubts about their exact role in society, a crippling pressure to fill the pews and a huge sense of failure when they don't.
That's for starters, anyway. I also think that some priests/ministers are workaholics who are bad at "switching off" from the job.
[ 17. March 2015, 16:18: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But there are whole chunks of the Bible it never goes near. And what about the preacher, instead of grappling with an unresponsive set text, seeking the mind of the Spirit about what God might want to say to THIS congregation TODAY? A risky business, I agree ...
Risky, in part, because it can aid in the preacher pushing their own agenda and confusing that with the Spirit. The lectionary forces you to consider God's message, and sets you the question of what God is saying to this congregation through these passages. Often in the last few months the minister here has found in the lectionary passages that forced her to confront issues with the congregation that she might have avoided if left to choose the readings herself, but tackle them in a way that was grounded firmly in scripture.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
We have room for a train set. But I'd feel guilty spending all that money on one, and it's cold up there in the winter ... I do have some (non-running) model buses and trams, though. ...
The late Rev Peter Denny largely built his out of any bits and pieces he could lay his hands on. The mechanism for his signalling system was built round bits of old piano keys.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Ah, but he was one of the all-time greats of railway modelling!
Yet again one must ask: did he, as a Vicar in the 50s/60s, have more time on his hands? (One could ask the same of Wilbert Awdry).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Ah, but he was one of the all-time greats of railway modelling!
Yet again one must ask: did he, as a Vicar in the 50s/60s, have more time on his hands? (One could ask the same of Wilbert Awdry).
The answer he gave, was that this was his one hobby which he chose single-mindedly to concentrate on. Bishop Eric Treacy said the same about photography. Also, there wouldn't have been much television or other things to do in rural Cornwall then.
What, though, also represents a different era with different conditions, is that he described how he spent most mornings in his study. This would not just have been things like sermon preparation. The study would have functioned as an office - clergy didn't have secretaries in those days and largely had to do all their own admin - and people would have come and seen him there. He then spent the afternoons out and about in the parish. If he got any time for his hobby, he said it would usually be in the evenings. That's a big contrast with now, when the evening is the only time when a lot of parishioners are around,
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The study would have functioned as an office - clergy didn't have secretaries in those days and largely had to do all their own admin - and people would have come and seen him there.
How many clergy actually have secretaries these days? I know big parishes with resources often have a full time (or nearly) administrator; in a medium-sized and not desperately poor parish I could find the cash for a couple of hours admin help a week. But very many priests are still struggling singlehanded with a much bigger load of administration than would be the case in Peter Denny's day. Or am I just unlucky?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I of course cannot speak about the United Kingdom, but here in the U.S., we are finding it harder and harder to fund church employees and even clergy. UM churches in my Conference are combining jobs into one person, moving from two or more appointed clergy to just one, and moving from paid positions to volunteer. Those who are on payroll are thus finding themselves working harder for the same money. Saying "We'll get people to volunteer to do it" is fine and good, but recruiting, managing, and maintaining those volunteers is a job unto itself -- I know, because I worked it. It seems that volunteers think they can do whatever they like because they're free.
Many churches are combining the youth minister with the contemporary worship leader. Sometimes that's great, but sometimes it means that the great worship leader who is terrible at being a youth minister, or the great youth minister who is terrible at leading contemporary worship, find themselves in jobs that pay significantly less than they did a few years ago, with fewer and fewer options for a better position. Not only that, but the UMC made the (I think greatly mistaken) decision in 1992 to split ordination into either deacons or elders (presbyters), thus creating the permanent diaconate. Deacons must find their own jobs, and are then appointed by the bishop (not unlike the Anglican way of doing things), whereas elders are guaranteed an appointment. Deacons are clergy, though, and thus must be paid a minimum amount and given the same (conference standard) health benefits as the elders, which can be very cost-prohibitive to churches. Thus we have fewer and fewer deacons being ordained, and those we have are finding it harder and harder to stay in full time ministry. It usually seems better to a church to ask for an elder or two (or an elder and a part-time local pastor, whose salary minimums are less than either the deacon or the elder) instead of having an elder and a deacon.
Doing more with less is a good thing, but occasionally you hit a wall and end up getting less with less.
[ 18. March 2015, 16:49: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Many churches are combining the youth minister with the contemporary worship leader.
I have to say that that raises a smile for me, here in Britain - the number of churches that could employ either a youth minister or a paid worship leader must be tiny; the number who could think of having both must be miniscule (although I'm sure there are some).
I wonder if - on both sides of the Pond - we are seeing a growing division of churches into "small churches who are struggling to resource their activities, share paid ministry with other congregations and depend on a decreasing pool of volunteers" and "large professionalised churches who lack not for cash and can multiply their paid staff" - with fewer and fewer churches falling between?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
It would appear so.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Exeter Cathedral has given up Sunday Mattins. Not sure how many other Cathedrals have done so.
As someone who finds himself not infrequently in Exeter, this was a great loss. I've found an alternative on Sunday mornings.
What I miss, especially in the US, is the "I believe" for of the Credo. The "We believe" version is an option in the 1979 BCP, even in the Trad Language rite, and seems to creep in everywhere.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Astonishingly, I've been to a church in my city for the first time this morning that is entirely BCP* in its services (and it has services daily).
*except on the first Sunday of the month where it makes a concession to modernity by using CW Order 1 (Traditional Language)... So it's 8am BCP HC every Sunday, and then 1030 is 1st CW HC, 2nd BCP Mattins, 3rd BCP Holy Communion, 4th BCP Mattins.
I think I've gone to heaven. I've lived here 9 years, how on earth did I not know??.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I have certainly encountered groups of churches (where the grouping is fairly informal - it's a historically a very Nonconformist area so it's just a group of the MOTR and higher Anglican churches) which each have a different 'flavour' and it works well. One does indeed have BCP Mattins and BCP Evensong on Sundays along with a main morning CW Eucharistic service, and a midweek short BCP Eucharist. The church is part Saxon and thick-walled, so is fairly dark and quiet inside - the BCP seems to work well with that.
I am not from a Christian home and still in my 20s so haven't experienced a lot of change in church services, but would certainly welcome a resurgence in Prayer Book evangelicals to combat the lectionary-lite tendencies in CoE evangelicalism.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I think the biggest difference (other than for RCs or Orthodox) is not to do with the form of service, but an attitude...
And I can no longer rely on getting the lectionary.
Can I ask why the Lectionary is so important to you? Granted it gives a good balanced framework for, and commentary to, the Christian year. That is especially true if different people are presiding and preaching from week to week.
But there are whole chunks of the Bible it never goes near. And what about the preacher, instead of grappling with an unresponsive set text, seeking the mind of the Spirit about what God might want to say to THIS congregation TODAY? A risky business, I agree ...
IME churches that use a lectionary actually use a much bigger proportion of the Bible - when preachers set the text it's just the standard favourites. Recently in an online discussion group we were discussing Song of Songs, and many of those in churches with a heavy focus on preaching and where there is no lectionary were not familiar with it and had never heard it read in church at all (Baptists and other historical Nonconformist churches, and charismatics/Pentecostals). Admittedly those of us in churches which use a lectionary won't hear it much, but we will hear it and at weddings if nothing else.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Astonishingly, I've been to a church in my city for the first time this morning that is entirely BCP* in its services (and it has services daily).
*except on the first Sunday of the month where it makes a concession to modernity by using CW Order 1 (Traditional Language)... So it's 8am BCP HC every Sunday, and then 1030 is 1st CW HC, 2nd BCP Mattins, 3rd BCP Holy Communion, 4th BCP Mattins.
I think I've gone to heaven. I've lived here 9 years, how on earth did I not know??.
Were there many other people there apart from you?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Astonishingly, I've been to a church in my city for the first time this morning that is entirely BCP* in its services (and it has services daily).
*except on the first Sunday of the month where it makes a concession to modernity by using CW Order 1 (Traditional Language)... So it's 8am BCP HC every Sunday, and then 1030 is 1st CW HC, 2nd BCP Mattins, 3rd BCP Holy Communion, 4th BCP Mattins.
I think I've gone to heaven. I've lived here 9 years, how on earth did I not know??.
Were there many other people there apart from you?
70-odd plus choir. Average age about 35
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Astonishingly, I've been to a church in my city for the first time this morning that is entirely BCP* in its services (and it has services daily).
*except on the first Sunday of the month where it makes a concession to modernity by using CW Order 1 (Traditional Language)... So it's 8am BCP HC every Sunday, and then 1030 is 1st CW HC, 2nd BCP Mattins, 3rd BCP Holy Communion, 4th BCP Mattins.
I think I've gone to heaven. I've lived here 9 years, how on earth did I not know??.
Were there many other people there apart from you?
70-odd plus choir. Average age about 35
to clarify that was for a 1030 BCP Mattins
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Sounds like you've fallen on your feet there!
I think- and this point may have been made upthread- that the appeal of the BCP, and Mattins, are overlooked. They don't suit everyone, by a long chalk, but they appeal to, and so can draw in, more people than some might expect.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Although not spectacular, the most consistent figures at our place are for Matins - and the overall trend is of growth.
Similarly our Good Friday liturgy (basically just BCP readings with extended motets and anthems plus a few hymns, opening and closing prayers) attracted 3 times the usual numbers this year.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Chichester cathedral (a few years ago, and I imagine still) have Choral Mattins before the Eucharist (with a gap, so most people escape or arrive in between). It seems to be well-attended, with a congregation largely consisting of well-heeled, well-educated and retired people as one might expect in such a city. I am told they represent the sort of intelligent semi-agnostic cultural Anglicanism prevalent in those social circles; they enjoy the music and thoughtful preaching, but sacramental worship is a step too far for them.
That is a diminishing constituency but one that is important and needs to be catered for. However I'm not sure if there are enough people like that in the average parish to make a viable congregation, nor enough resources in the way of musicians and preachers to provide what they are looking for.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Sounds like you've fallen on your feet there!
I think- and this point may have been made upthread- that the appeal of the BCP, and Mattins, are overlooked. They don't suit everyone, by a long chalk, but they appeal to, and so can draw in, more people than some might expect.
I think that's very true - I'm perpetually torn between the two stools of full-on nosebleed anglo-catholicism with smells, bells, angelus, and the NEH; and on the other hand by-the-book BCP with Hymns A&M. Anything else doesn't quite do it for me. I think there was a thread a while ago that touched on weekly parish communion, and it was observed (validly, I thought) that the widespread disappearance of Mattins is a real babies-and-bathwater by-product.
I wonder if a bit less communion (and uncertainty about what to do/whether to go up/what's going on) might be a help in getting people through the door - for something which is basically hymns and prayers (I'm not going to say "just"). I can cope with monthly communion if it means people actually feel they can come the rest of the time.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
I don't think I could, or would necessarily want to, see every parish church doing it every Sunday. But I'd like to hope that certainly in moderately sized towns there would be at least one place that would.
I was looking at Trevor Beeson's little book of reminiscences of '50 years round the Church' and it seems pretty clear from his account of the Parish and People mobement, which pushed the Parish Eucharist in the 1950s and in which he was heavily involved, that it was actually almost entirely clerically-driven and clerically-led. That isn't in itself an objection, of course- the CofE's not a congregational church. (Cross-posted with betjemaniac.)
[ 14. April 2015, 14:23: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Angloid quote:
Chichester cathedral (a few years ago, and I imagine still) have Choral Mattins before the Eucharist (with a gap, so most people escape or arrive in between). It seems to be well-attended, with a congregation largely consisting of well-heeled, well-educated and retired people as one might expect in such a city. I am told they represent the sort of intelligent semi-agnostic cultural Anglicanism prevalent in those social circles; they enjoy the music and thoughtful preaching, but sacramental worship is a step too far for them.
I have five friends who are regulars at Chichester's Choral Matins: two could be described as 'well-heeled', 4 as well-educated and none are retired.
ALL would take exception to being described as 'semi-agnostic' and would be puzzled by your reference to "those social circles" (as I am, for that matter).
They go to Matins because they like the rhythm of the service: they appreciate a balance of readings from both Old and New testaments; find inspiration and food-for-thought in the Psalms (which are largely absent from most CofE services nowadays); and enjoy anthems on a wider selection of themes than the eucharist.
Far from seeing sacramental worship as a step too far, all my friends are very thoughtful, conscientious people who were well-prepared for confirmation and see their participation in a eucharist as a serious matter: that cannot be said for large swathes of people who attend week by week.
The only thing that is likely to drive them away is the noticeable change in the music since the departure of Sarah Baldock last year.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
I get the impression that many people these days expect to be entertained at church and often the church feels it has to comply. It is a relief to enter a church that is quiet and contemplative, but maybe these feelings are a symptom in me of aging and the march of time. My grandchildren expect to go to church and have fun which would have been unheard of when I was a child. It is very difficult to satisfy all of the people all of the time.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Angloid quote:
Chichester cathedral (a few years ago, and I imagine still) have Choral Mattins before the Eucharist (with a gap, so most people escape or arrive in between). It seems to be well-attended, with a congregation largely consisting of well-heeled, well-educated and retired people as one might expect in such a city. I am told they represent the sort of intelligent semi-agnostic cultural Anglicanism prevalent in those social circles; they enjoy the music and thoughtful preaching, but sacramental worship is a step too far for them.
I have five friends who are regulars at Chichester's Choral Matins: two could be described as 'well-heeled', 4 as well-educated and none are retired.
ALL would take exception to being described as 'semi-agnostic' and would be puzzled by your reference to "those social circles" (as I am, for that matter).
They go to Matins because they like the rhythm of the service: they appreciate a balance of readings from both Old and New testaments; find inspiration and food-for-thought in the Psalms (which are largely absent from most CofE services nowadays); and enjoy anthems on a wider selection of themes than the eucharist.
Far from seeing sacramental worship as a step too far, all my friends are very thoughtful, conscientious people who were well-prepared for confirmation and see their participation in a eucharist as a serious matter: that cannot be said for large swathes of people who attend week by week.
The only thing that is likely to drive them away is the noticeable change in the music since the departure of Sarah Baldock last year.
Oh dear! I was trying to be generous in my view of a group of people from a very different demographic and theological perspective from my own. I'm sorry if any snarkiness came across. I was simply relaying the views of a senior member of the clergy who was very sympathetic to this group albeit, like myself, not on their particular wavelength. I have preached at the Choral Eucharist there and witnessed the Mattins congregation 'from afar', as it were. My impression was as I have described it, but I didn't mean to imply that they were all elderly or rolling in wealth (though I doubt if many of them were on housing benefit either).
'Semi-agnostic' was not intended as a jibe but a description of many Anglicans brought up in the culture of the BCP who nevertheless have serious intellectual reservations about the faith. I can't believe that there is not a significant number of such people in that congregation, if not among your friends. I respect them and am glad that the Church is able to offer them a liturgical experience that respects their integrity.
But your point about serious preparation for the Eucharist is well-made and important. Those of us brought up on the view that 'it's the Mass that matters' need to recognise that there is a respectable Anglican tradition of reverence for the sacrament based on restraint and reluctance to be over-familiar with holy things. ++Michael Ramsey of blessed memory made much the same point many years ago.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Our Place has 930am BCP Matins every Sunday - the Parish Mass - Common Worship Order 1 - with (allowed) Carflick bits follows at 1030am.
Despite being advertised on the Prayer Book Society's website, and, of course, on our own websites and noticeboards, we have yet to see a congregation at Matins of more than 6. Where is the enthusiasm for this service of which some of you speak? Or should we be doing more to advertise it (sensible suggestions welcome!)?
I fully agree that not everyone might be able, willing, or spiritually ready to take on the Eucharist, so perhaps it's time for us to make something more of Matins.
The service is said 'by the book' from the opening versicles and responses up until the Grace, after the State Prayers. No hymns or other music/singing, but if the potential was there, I'd like to have at least an Office Hymn and the Benedictus sung......
Anyone like to come and join us???
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Angloid
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# 159
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Good point, Bishop's Finger. The Prayer Book offices are very popular (or at least Evensong is) when they are able to be offered with the sort of musical resources that are available in cathedrals but very rare in the average parish church (especially when, rightly, the priority is given to the Sunday eucharist). Many parishes have BCP Holy Communion at 8am or thereabouts, usually quietly said; congregations are usually in single figures.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
For example, I really miss the Mattins canticles - yes I know that, as a regular service, Mattins did really have to go. But those canticles were rather special, surely we could still sing them once in a while?
In the Canadian rubrics, the "Act of Praise" or Song of Praise in the beginning need not be the Gloria in Excelsis for the Eucharist. You could theoretically substitute the Te Deum for the Gloria in the Eucharist.
Same in the US BCP. At times I've suggested to our rector that we replace the Gloria sometimes during post-Pentecost with another canticle just for variation, and we've done that from time to time. The rubric says "Gloria in Excelsis or some other song of praise" or words to that effect.
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Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Our Place has 930am BCP Matins every Sunday - the Parish Mass - Common Worship Order 1 - with (allowed) Carflick bits follows at 1030am.
Despite being advertised on the Prayer Book Society's website, and, of course, on our own websites and noticeboards, we have yet to see a congregation at Matins of more than 6. Where is the enthusiasm for this service of which some of you speak?
...
How big a congregation does the Cathedral choral mattins get? If I were looking for Mattins in your neck of the woods, that's the first place I'd look.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Angloid quote:
Oh dear! I was trying to be generous in my view of a group of people from a very different demographic and theological perspective from my own. I'm sorry if any snarkiness came across. I was simply relaying the views of a senior member of the clergy who was very sympathetic to this group albeit, like myself, not on their particular wavelength. I have preached at the Choral Eucharist there and witnessed the Mattins congregation 'from afar', as it were. My impression was as I have described it, but I didn't mean to imply that they were all elderly or rolling in wealth (though I doubt if many of them were on housing benefit either).
Unless you've made some attempt to speak to them, how on earth can you possibly state that a whole congregation (numbering over 100) is entirely made up of people "from a very different demographic and theological perspective from my own" - anymore, I suspect, than the senior cleric you allude to.
Yes, a great deal of snarkiness came over - in both of your posts. And yet again you make a snide point about presumed wealth at the end of your paragraph.
But then in my church (different diocese) we've all recently been told from the pulpit (at the behest of a bishop's letter) that we can afford to give another £10 per week each. When I pointed out to our diocesan that the clerical salary plus housing, etc, package, puts incumbents on a good £14,000 per annum more than the national average he blanked it out, and carried on pleading poverty. Still, what to expect when parish share has just been put up by another 8% when salaries have barely risen and inflation is under 3%?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
The internet isn't very good at nuance. If we were able to discuss this face to face I'm sure our respective hackles wouldn't be raised. Can I just point out though that I didn't say the congregation was 'entirely' made up of people from a different background to myself. I just doubt that many of them would be working class northerners.
Not that that matters. I know from experience that ministering to people from a different cultural background can be enlightening and particularly that the common ground is much greater, and more important, than the differences. The common ground I was trying to suggest in this situation is that this congregation appeared to find great value and spiritual nourishment in that form of worship. The quality of their spiritual experience , rather than the context, is what matters.
Cathedrals are in the fortunate position that they can provide different experiences of worship to suit different personalities and backgrounds. The difficulty most of us in ordinary parishes find, is finding the 'one size' that truly 'fits all': few churches are able to put on more than one 'main' service and this is bound to be something of a compromise.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Angloid quote:
Cathedrals are in the fortunate position that they can provide different experiences of worship to suit different personalities and backgrounds. The difficulty most of us in ordinary parishes find, is finding the 'one size' that truly 'fits all': few churches are able to put on more than one 'main' service and this is bound to be something of a compromise.
Really? Since Matins (or any other non-Eucharistic liturgy) doesn't require the presence of an ordained minister it shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of any parish to provide a true choice of 'main' service.
Yes, some worshippers may prefer a Lay Reader (or at least someone in cassock and surplice) but it is possible to have full Choral Matins without a priest, deacon or reader - I know, because we do it.
The only thing therefore is to arrange the diary in such a way that the maximum number of people can find a service they're comfortable with at a time that suits them.
Pie-in-the-sky? Well no. We have a PinC who thought as you did about 8am BCP being a fair 'alternative' and we called his bluff by getting a vote for an experimental period of having Choral Matins at 09:45 and a BCP Choral Communion at 11:00. To his amazement the total numbers at both services went up and its become a fixture; in fact its enabled us to produce evidence that the service that attracts previously un-churched people is Matins - not well-received by either archdeacon or bishop!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Really? Since Matins (or any other non-Eucharistic liturgy) doesn't require the presence of an ordained minister it shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of any parish to provide a true choice of 'main' service.
Yes, some worshippers may prefer a Lay Reader (or at least someone in cassock and surplice) but it is possible to have full Choral Matins without a priest, deacon or reader - I know, because we do it.
Time-wise it should be possible to fit one in, but priority-wise, churches seem to want to spend their time on other things than services now. Perhaps it's more an idea of getting out amongst the people, rather than expecting them to come into church for a service. (Or maybe by Sunday evening, everyone is tired and don't want to turn out again for anything else.) How else to explain that a very large proportion do not even have a Sunday evening service these days (Evensong doesn't require leading by a priest, either).
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Many churches would feel either that they have no person capable of leading such a service, or that they are simply too small to put on two viable services.
(Which is not to say that those ways of thinking shouldn't be challenged!)
The provision of music could be an issue, too - especially if choir and organist are perceived to put all their resources into one service and "ignore" the other. There is also the danger of creating two separate congregations which rarely meet, although there are ways around this (e.g. coffee for all between the two services).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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