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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Church of England (and therefore Anglicans) are Protestants??
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
In Kerygmania the question was raised as to the Protestantism of the Church of England; with one or two expressing surprise. I was going to post this there as a response but the hosting decision says I'm not allowed.
Is the following from the Coronation oath enough to settle the matter?:
quote:
Archbishop. Will you to the utmost of your power maintain the Laws of God and the true profession of the Gospel? Will you to the utmost of your power maintain in the United Kingdom the Protestant Reformed Religion established by law? Will you maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the Church of England, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established in England? And will you preserve unto the Bishops and Clergy of England, and to the Churches there committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges, as by law do or shall appertain to them or any of them?
Queen. All this I promise to do.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Before ordination, all candidates say the declaration of assent. The preface is first read by the bishop:
quote:
The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In the declaration you are about to make will you affirm your loyalty to this inheritance of faith as your inspiration and guidance under God in bringing the grace and truth of Christ to this generation and making him known to those in your care?
The candidates then say
quote:
I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorized or allowed by Canon.
[ 26. April 2015, 13:08: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Remembering the story of ++Fisher meeting some Portuguese seminarians on his travels.
PSs: Who are you? (all this in Latin, by the way, as their only common tongue)
++F: The Archbishop of Canterbury.
PSs (never having heard of the office): Oh. Are you a Catholic?
++F: Not what you mean by a Catholic.
PSs: Oh. Are you then a Protestant?
++F: Not what you mean by a Protestant.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Bingo!
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm Church of England, and I regard myself as Protestant.
I also regard myself as a member of the church of St Alban, St Augustine of Canterbury, St Cuthbert, and of this part of the world St Aldhelm and all saints then and since, including William Tyndale (also with local connections) and the Marian martyrs.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Oxonian Ecclesiastic
Shipmate
# 12722
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Posted
I once heard it put that Anglicans are Reformed but not Protestant, while Lutherans are Protestant but not Reformed. I think that is about right.
Posts: 174 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Invictus_88:
How about "Protestant-friendly"?
How about "catholic-Friendly"?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes Lutherans are Protestant but not Reformed. Calvin never totally pulled off the merger with Melanchthon although he did manage it with Bullinger. The Reformed tradition therefore is that which goes through Calvin and Zwingli but not Luther. However, Anglican's have never got their heads around such continental niceties.
Therefore the first statement has a totally different meaning to the second one because Anglican's define "Reformed" differently and "Protestant" differently. In other words its gibberish unless you accept Anglican internal definitions.
All I am trying to argue is that it is not up to the Anglican Communion to decide whether it it Catholic, Protestant or Reformed but up to the whole Church. Just because you create a definition that suits you does not mean others need to accept it. If they do not accept the redefinition then you do not get the label or loose the label.
So Anglicanism is Protestant. I am willing to concede is partly Reformed in that the 39 articles are really a low Reformed statement with Bishops added. In other words if Anglicanism wants to associate itself with any of the other sub-streams of Protestantism then the Reformed one which is also the most ecumenical is perhaps the historically correct one.
However the claims to be Catholic are not accepted by the main denomination claiming that title. Basically if you are not in communion with the Pope you are not Catholic in their understanding. Equally, the way Anglican does it gives "we are, you aren't" basis which too many other Protestants sounds very "uncatholic" because catholic is usually seen as acknowledging Christ's body is bigger than our own chapel, denomination or communion. Which is why we sometimes use universal instead, though that is still to narrow a concept for the bounds of catholic. In other words it gives offense to all other Christians one way or another.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Presumably the Old Catholics, and the Porvoo signatories, accept Anglican identification as Catholic. Besides, I fail to see why Rome should get to decide who is and isn't Catholic. Catholic hasn't meant "in communion with the Pope" since at least the Great Schism.
[ 26. April 2015, 20:45: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Lutherans do not claim to be Catholic that is your oddity not theirs! They are recognizing you as part of the church Catholic in the Protestant term. So Porvoo is irrelevant, indeed it might be seen as a sign that you are not Catholic.
Old Catholics are an obscure sect that make the URC look mainstream. If you have to get your validation from them then...
If Catholicism means nothing more than in communion with the See of St Peter then I am quite happy for the Roman Catholic Church to determine that. It is not something I aspire to. If you want catholic to mean the Body of Christ through out eternity I would desire you to be a little less precious about it.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
I'll stick my neck out and submit that as a very broad generalization, the US Episcopal Church more closely resembles the Roman Catholic Church liturgically. Much of this is due, I think, to the Prayer Book revisions that emphasized the centrality of the Eucharist.
Also, as a personal aside, among my Protestant friends, many have opined that TEC is "like the Catholics" (or even "Too Catholic"). Almost all of my Catholic friends seem to feel that it is at least liturgically very similar to their church .
[ 26. April 2015, 21:28: Message edited by: ldjjd ]
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Ask four Anglicans and get five opinions, but I'd happily go with the idea that the Church of England believes itself to quote:
embody the essential notes of the Church catholic and reformed.
In saying that I recognise that the Roman Catholic Church would not accept it to be thoroughly catholic, and within the reformed tradition some do not accept it as fully reformed.
[ 26. April 2015, 21:51: Message edited by: BroJames ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I'll stick my neck out and submit that as a very broad generalization, the US Episcopal Church more closely resembles the Roman Catholic Church liturgically. Much of this is due, I think, to the Prayer Book revisions that emphasized the centrality of the Eucharist.
Also, as a personal aside, among my Protestant friends, many have opined that TEC is "like the Catholics" (or even "Too Catholic"). Almost all of my Catholic friends seem to feel that it is at least liturgically very similar to their church .
I'd stick my neck out also. This is a particularly dangerous thing to do bearing in mind that I've never crossed the Atlantic and my entire awareness of the US Episcopal Church comes from what I have picked up since I embarked on the Ship.
Different provinces of the Anglican Communion differ a lot from each other. Although the CofE and the US Episcopal Church are in communion with each other, I get the impression that in culture and ethos they are actually quite a long way apart, and particularly since the introduction of Common Worship, moving in different directions, not so much directly away from one another but at right angles.
[ 26. April 2015, 22:16: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Some C of E Anglicans are definitely NOT "catholic".
Some C of E Anglicans are definitely NOT "reformed".
Some C of E congregations (and ministers) are barely Anglican.
Increasingly, I have difficulties with adequate definitions of the terms "catholic", "protestant", and especially "Anglican".
For myself, I would term myself "Anglican" because I am part of the Anglican family of churches - even though I disagree considerably with a lot of the more con-evo forces within the family.
As a self-termed "Anglican", I think of myself as "catholic", because I see myself (as an Anglican) as part of the worldwide Christian Church, in fellowship with RCs, Orthodox and all other denominations.
I recognise that, because I am not "in communion" with Rome (although that's Rome's fault, not mine), I would be regarded by some as "protestant". This is, however, a term that I would never use for myself as I find it meaningless.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
However the claims to be Catholic are not accepted by the main denomination claiming that title.
Well they wouldn't, would they?
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I'll stick my neck out and submit that as a very broad generalization, the US Episcopal Church more closely resembles the Roman Catholic Church liturgically. Much of this is due, I think, to the Prayer Book revisions that emphasized the centrality of the Eucharist.
Also, as a personal aside, among my Protestant friends, many have opined that TEC is "like the Catholics" (or even "Too Catholic"). Almost all of my Catholic friends seem to feel that it is at least liturgically very similar to their church .
I'd stick my neck out also. This is a particularly dangerous thing to do bearing in mind that I've never crossed the Atlantic and my entire awareness of the US Episcopal Church comes from what I have picked up since I embarked on the Ship.
Different provinces of the Anglican Communion differ a lot from each other. Although the CofE and the US Episcopal Church are in communion with each other, I get the impression that in culture and ethos they are actually quite a long way apart, and particularly since the introduction of Common Worship, moving in different directions, not so much directly away from one another but at right angles.
Hmmm......I don't feel this myself. I actually feel quite close to the TEC but then I'm not C-of-E but Welsh
The Welsh church actually has drawn closer to the English church with the introduction of the 2004 revision - there now seems little difference in the two liturgies and when I'm on holiday in England the CW liturgy seems very similar to what we use. The same with the TEC - just had a look at their Prayer Book and the three churches seem very close
I tend too to agree with Oscar the Grouch - I always describe myself as Anglican. 'Protestant' can mean a variety of things and the same could be said about Catholic particularly in an Anglican context! I don't to be honest really identify with either the Catholic or Reformed aspects of Anglicanism - or at least their extremes - but instead can see good things in both - and bad things in both! I can't call myself an Anglo-Catholic or an Evangelical....because I am neither. I wouldn't use 'Protestant' to describe myself although I don't object to it being used of myself either
If I were in the States I would certainly attend the TEC and I'm pretty sure I'd feel comfortable there too
The history of the C-of-E has resulted in an attempt to contain the Catholic and Reformed elements in one church. Whether it has been successful could be challenged and even maintained it's failed but it's not I think for lack of trying.....We have a 'Popish liturgy a Calvinistic set of articles and an Erastian clergy' I think has been said! More rhetoric than anything else? Maybe - but there is an element of truth in it! And if you're an Anglican that is what you have to deal with. It does create tensions I will grant you that. But do I want to change it? I don't think so,not really......
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Those Anglicans who call the Church of England catholic, do they/you also consider the Church of Scotland catholic?
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Those Anglicans who call the Church of England catholic, do they/you also consider the Church of Scotland catholic?
Two of the three (university-educated) I polled on this question this afternoon seemed to think that the Church of Scotland was Anglican so that would answer your question, sort of. The Jew at the table knew that it was Presbyterian.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Those Anglicans who call the Church of England catholic, do they/you also consider the Church of Scotland catholic?
In the sense of it being part of the wider church, yes. More narrowly, the CofS does not maintain the historic episcopate, and relies (or at least claims to rely) solely on scripture rather than recognising the role of the ecumenical councils and the historic teaching of the church. Historically the denial that much of the rest of the church was Christian (including the claim that the Pope was the anti-Christ) suggests deliberate separation. The CofS does not believe that, when ordaining, they are ordaining priests to the same orders that Anglicans, Roman Catholics and the Orthodox do. I'm inclined to think, then, that the CofS is deliberately non-Catholic.
[ 27. April 2015, 05:23: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
relies (or at least claims to rely) solely on scripture rather than recognising the role of the ecumenical councils and the historic teaching of the church.
It is possible to do both, assessing the latter in terms of the former.
quote:
The CofS does not believe that, when ordaining, they are ordaining priests to the same orders that Anglicans, Roman Catholics and the Orthodox do. I'm inclined to think, then, that the CofS is deliberately non-Catholic.
The NT knows nothing of "ordination" or of "priests".
It is perfectly possible to subscribe to the church's Nicene catholicity - and unity, sanctity and apostolicity - without falling for either.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The NT knows nothing of "ordination" or of "priests".
Which sums up nicely exactly why the C of E is catholic, not protestant.
Protestants take the Bible as its sole authority.
Catholics balance scripture with tradition and reason.
Tradition shows that we have ordained priests since at least the 2nd Century.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The NT knows nothing of "ordination" or of "priests".
Which sums up nicely exactly why the C of E is catholic, not protestant.
Protestants take the Bible as its sole authority.
Catholics balance scripture with tradition and reason.
Time the Reformers rather than the Protestant Popular theologians. Calvin for instance seems to quote the church fathers every other line. Of course there is Augustine!
No the Protestants retold the tradition just as Anglicans do.
Jengie
[ 27. April 2015, 08:46: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by Demas: Those Anglicans who call the Church of England catholic, do they/you also consider the Church of Scotland catholic?
Nope. The Church of Scotland is Presbyterian.
Trying to describe the Scottish Episcopal church has its moments though. Certainly where I am in the west of Scotland when people ask if you're catholic or protestant they mean are you Roman Catholic or Kirk/Church of Scotland/Presbyterian (or any of its various offshoots).
Of course, urban myth around here also suggests that if you say neither, you are (for example Jewish) the question is whether you are a protestant Jew or a catholic Jew...
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
'Holy Protestant Church of Japan' just doesn't seem to have the same ring of truth about it.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Presumably the Old Catholics, and the Porvoo signatories, accept Anglican identification as Catholic.
Yes, I am an Old Catholic by ecclesiology and (for the most part) theology. I belong to the Anglican Church of Canada because it is the church recognized by Utrecht for Old Catholics in Canada. I am not "protesting" Catholic doctrine, nor am I "pro testamente" as Protestants would understand it. I reject sola scriptura as a self-contradiction, and I believe that Christ's presence in the Eucharist is objective, local, and adorable. If I'm a Protestant, so were all Roman Catholics in 1869. On the other hand, I'm quite happy to be counted an Evangelical Christian.
This is a question I've been mulling over in quite another context: labels that apply well to collectives are inversely likely to be apt to the individuals who make them up. What makes a term useful as an umbrella term makes it equally contentious as a individual marker.
To give a more removed example, I know bishops of groups under the umbrella of the "Independent Sacramental Movement" who dislike the term: they would prefer to be called Old Roman Catholics, Liberal Catholics, or what have you. The elasticity of the term which makes it so convenient for sweeping, collective talk, makes it too anodyne to describe individuals. When discussing groups, a label that no one subset identifies especially closely with is an asset: when identifying individuals, it's obviously a handicap.
(For that matter, I have gay friends who chafe under the umbrella label "queer": it's a fairly established catch-all for the "LGBTQ..."etc. "communities" in aggregate. But the members of those communities may well just define themselves as members of those communities, rather than in terms of some perceived commonality across them. Academics like myself, however, can't really get around the need for the "meta" terms).
The Elizabethan settlement was by design aimed at "comprehending" the widest possible range of views, despite the efforts of some Anglo-Catholic and Evangelical authors to portray themselves as representing its intent, and the other as an anomaly. As a whole, the Church of England is an heir of the Protestant Reformation. As individuals, they vary. It would make sense to call John Stott or Michael Nazir-Ali a Protestant. It would be stretching the commonly understood meaning of the word to apply it to the Bishop of Ebbsfleet.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Lutherans do not claim to be Catholic that is your oddity not theirs! They are recognizing you as part of the church Catholic in the Protestant term.
Not quite: many Lutherans, especially, of an Evangelical Catholic persuasion, would use the term in a way similar to the way it is used by Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Old and Anglo-Catholics, etc. In fact, in describing myself as an Evangelical but not a Protestant, I'm taking a lead from many of my Lutheran acquaintances.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Protestants take the Bible as its sole authority.
Catholics balance scripture with tradition and reason.
Not all Protestants take the Bible as soul authority, some (ie Methodist) would take the same as the Catholics and add experience into the balance.
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Tradition shows that we have ordained priests since at least the 2nd Century.
I would say that Tradition (and Scripture and history) show that the church has ordained presbyters since the earliest days of the church. It wasn't until centuries later that the Greek or Latin words for "priest" in the sacrificial or intermediary sense (ἱερεύς/hiereus or sacerdos) began to be applied to the presbyterate.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
Whenever I see an argument that (some) Anglicans aren't protestant, it tends to involve characteristics of the Anglican church which either are also true of the Scandinavian Lutheran church.
I think we can assume that the Lutherans are protestant by definition, since any history of protestantism would assert that Luther started it. Therefore Anglicans are protestant.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
... The Elizabethan settlement was by design aimed at "comprehending" the widest possible range of views, despite the efforts of some Anglo-Catholic and Evangelical authors to portray themselves as representing its intent, and the other as an anomaly. ...
It's curious that it takes a non-Anglican to say something that is so important. There are so many people who refuse to admit this or to recognise that they aren't entitled to insist that everyone should be like them.
It's one of the reasons why I make a point of describing myself as Church of England, rather than Anglican.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Amanda in the South Bay
Apprentice
# 18185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm Church of England, and I regard myself as Protestant.
I also regard myself as a member of the church of St Alban, St Augustine of Canterbury, St Cuthbert, and of this part of the world St Aldhelm and all saints then and since, including William Tyndale (also with local connections) and the Marian martyrs.
Ah, so you ask for the intercession of the saints, pray for the dead, venerate relics, go on pilgrimages, and are in communion with the Bishop of Rome?
I find it strange that even Anglicans who embrace their Protestant heritage (Tyndale and the Marian Prots) claim to have a continuity with the pre-Reformation Catholic Church in England.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Aug 2014
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Amanda in the South Bay
Apprentice
# 18185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
relies (or at least claims to rely) solely on scripture rather than recognising the role of the ecumenical councils and the historic teaching of the church.
It is possible to do both, assessing the latter in terms of the former.
quote:
The CofS does not believe that, when ordaining, they are ordaining priests to the same orders that Anglicans, Roman Catholics and the Orthodox do. I'm inclined to think, then, that the CofS is deliberately non-Catholic.
The NT knows nothing of "ordination" or of "priests".
It is perfectly possible to subscribe to the church's Nicene catholicity - and unity, sanctity and apostolicity - without falling for either.
I always thought it fascinating that Protestants who take such a dim view of the episcopate can subscribe to creeds that were created by members of said episcopate.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Aug 2014
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Amanda in the South Bay
Apprentice
# 18185
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Posted
Especially amongst more confessional Lutherans (and amongst former Anglicans turned Catholic) there's a strong desire to bash Anglicanism as Calvinist, or Reformed (as if the 30 some years of Elizabethan Anglicanism defined Anglicanism FOREVER AND IN ALL PLACES).
Posts: 26 | Registered: Aug 2014
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
It's only on the Ship that I've come across Anglicans who deny they are Protestants. We came into existence by breaking away from Rome, at a time when there was a widespread recognition that Rome needed to be reformed. Therefore I find it hard to see how we can be anything other than Protestant.
(However, I also affirm that we are Catholic, and that we contain the best of all worlds. In my own, bigoted, mind I believe that when Rome finally catches up with the Reformation it will want to rejoin us!)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Some C of E Anglicans are definitely NOT "catholic".
Some C of E Anglicans are definitely NOT "reformed".
Some C of E congregations (and ministers) are barely Anglican.
Increasingly, I have difficulties with adequate definitions of the terms "catholic", "protestant", and especially "Anglican".
For myself, I would term myself "Anglican" because I am part of the Anglican family of churches - even though I disagree considerably with a lot of the more con-evo forces within the family.
As a self-termed "Anglican", I think of myself as "catholic", because I see myself (as an Anglican) as part of the worldwide Christian Church, in fellowship with RCs, Orthodox and all other denominations.
I recognise that, because I am not "in communion" with Rome (although that's Rome's fault, not mine), I would be regarded by some as "protestant". This is, however, a term that I would never use for myself as I find it meaningless.
This would be the mainstream approach in western Canada. Most people seem much more interested in what connects them and what they hold in common. While the RC denomination sometimes takes more trouble to differentiate themselves as unique, the diversity of all of the rest isn't generally lumped together as protestant here.
I also notice a tendency for people elsewhere to somehow use catholicity as some sort of benchmark against which all else would be measured. When I saw above the RC denomination, that is precisely all it is here. No more specially perceived as say, Mennonite or Doukabor.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda in the South Bay:
Ah, so you ask for the intercession of the saints, pray for the dead, venerate relics, go on pilgrimages, and are in communion with the Bishop of Rome?
I find it strange that even Anglicans who embrace their Protestant heritage (Tyndale and the Marian Prots) claim to have a continuity with the pre-Reformation Catholic Church in England.
The old (CofE) answer to the (RC) jibe 'where was your church before the reformation?' is 'where was your face before you washed it this morning?'
Of the practices that you list, the first two and the fourth are nowadays pretty unproblematic within the CofE although of course not univeralslly practiced, the third is a bit more problematic but I suspect not unknown, and as for the last, I think pretty much everyone in the CofE would say that it's not our fault that we aren't!
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
By the time I come to this thread, it has already accumulated a big response.
"Protestant" is one of those adjectives which means different things to different people and many Anglicans would not easily recognise themselves in that discription. To me, Anglicans are only protestant insofar as they are not Roman Catholics. As the posters have made clear above, "Catholic" rather than "Protestant" (the which word does not appear) is to be found in the formularies of most or all the branches of the Anglican Communion.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
My unease with the word 'protestant' is that it is so negative. It defines us by what we are against. The sort of Church the RCC was in the 16th century is very different from that of today, and even then the C of E only protested about certain aspects of it. The aspects of the RCC that I, and many if not most Anglicans, would still protest about are very few (albeit important); there are many more aspects of certain 'protestant' churches that I disagree with.
I don't disown the label 'protestant' but it's not very useful since it has to be redefined every time depending on who you are speaking to. 'Catholic' also needs explanation but at least it's a positive term and helps to give an idea of our general ethos - as the comments above about TEC indicate. It is interesting that in this city, which has a long history of sectarian 'catholic-protestant' rivalry, and two cathedrals to match, no-one every talks about the 'protestant' cathedral: it's always the 'Anglican' one.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
In the days of the Liverpool Protestant Party, would they have got votes from (even nominal) Anglicans?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I had to look that one up! They seem to have been Orange Lodge members which broke away from the Conservative Party ( gosh, that sounds familiar!!!!)
Well I wouldn't have voted for them but of course it would have been a secret ballot and a secret only remains such if only one person knows about it......
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It is interesting that in this city, which has a long history of sectarian 'catholic-protestant' rivalry, and two cathedrals to match, no-one every talks about the 'protestant' cathedral: it's always the 'Anglican' one.
Well - I didn't this year but I have in the past attended York Courses during Lent. The chief representatives other than ourselves have been Methodists and Roman Catholics, who are actually very active in ecumenical events. What surprised me initially at any rate was how much we actually agree on rather than disagree. The real disagreements seem to centre on church government
The other thing that strikes me is that divisions are a lot more acute within denominations than between them. These days you can have High church Presbyterians and Low Church Catholics.....
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
My unease with the word 'protestant' is that it is so negative. It defines us by what we are against.
It certainly has come to have that connotation, although in origin I think it had a rather different 'feel' - something more like testimony. The 'original' letter of protestation from which the term arose is, in fact, quite positive in tone - especially for the time.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
From what I have read there are just under 13 million Catholics in Canada and 200 thousand Mennonites in the same country.
This certainly does not mean that the majority group of these two is any more right than the minority group.
Nor does it mean that the majority grouping is any more Christian than the other .
But it does surely mean that with almost 40% of the Canadian population professing some sort of allegiance to Catholicism the Catholic Church has some sort of higher (not necessarily better )profile than the Mennonites.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
A bit over one and a half million Canadians identify as some sort of Anglican.
If we count the Anglicans as Catholic that might raise the profile (and possibly the quality) of Catholicism in Canada even higher.
It's good,however, if all Christians recognise the presence and the life of Christ in their Christian brothers and sisters who have different understandings of what is meant by the 'Church' as well as what is meant by the 'Catholic Church'.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The identification as being of a particularly denomination in Canada is pretty insignificant as a country wide statistic. The country is huge, with the religious denomination being less and less significant as you move west. Most of the country doesn't attend any church at all, even though they suggest they are religious or, more commonly, spiritual. They may turn to their family's cultural heritage when someone dies. It used to be when getting married too, but that's changing dramatically. It's the venue that's more important these days. It is quite possible to book nearly church and just pay the rental fee.
The statement "Anglicans are not Roman Catholics" would be as apt, as much as "Roman Catholics are not Lutheran". Notwithstanding that nearly every religious undertaking outside of a specific church is joint with those three, the United Church of Canada (several denominations came together in 1925, congregationalists, presbyterians, methodists) plus anyone else who is available and willing. Our future is together. It's probably different that the ecumenism that many elsewhere think of, where the differences are the starting point, and people are at pains to adhere to their traditions while finding common cause. The common cause often is first, and there's a tendency to minimize the differences, and only to consider these later if they're mentioned at all. And if they are mentioned it is usually in the context of the denomination with a bossy hierarchy in the context of apologising for it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As the posters have made clear above, "Catholic" rather than "Protestant" (the which word does not appear) is to be found in the formularies of most or all the branches of the Anglican Communion.
For what its worth, the first sentence of the Church of Scotland constitution is "The Church of Scotland is part of the Holy Catholic or Universal Church".
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
For what its worth, the first sentence of the Church of Scotland constitution is "The Church of Scotland is part of the Holy Catholic or Universal Church".
Also fwiw, a quick search of an electronic version of the Book of Confessions of the Presbyterian Church (USA) turned up around 25 uses of the word "catholic," all referring to being part of the the catholic church or teaching the catholic faith. Aside from the Nicene and Apostles' creeds, these references appear in the Scots Confession, the Heidelburg Catechism, the second Helvetic Confession and the Westminster Confession.
On the other hand, the confessions contain no uses of the word "Protestant." ("Reformed," of course, is another matter.)
Meanwhile, the official name of the primary expression of Anglicanism in the U.S. remains "The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, otherwise known as the Episcopal Church (which name is hereby recognized as also designating the Church)." (Preamble to the Constitution of The Episcopal Church.)
[ 28. April 2015, 02:17: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda in the South Bay:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
relies (or at least claims to rely) solely on scripture rather than recognising the role of the ecumenical councils and the historic teaching of the church.
It is possible to do both, assessing the latter in terms of the former.
quote:
The CofS does not believe that, when ordaining, they are ordaining priests to the same orders that Anglicans, Roman Catholics and the Orthodox do. I'm inclined to think, then, that the CofS is deliberately non-Catholic.
The NT knows nothing of "ordination" or of "priests".
It is perfectly possible to subscribe to the church's Nicene catholicity - and unity, sanctity and apostolicity - without falling for either.
I always thought it fascinating that Protestants who take such a dim view of the episcopate can subscribe to creeds that were created by members of said episcopate.
Neither fascinating nor surprising.
Protestants are grateful for any providential gift of Tradition which is scriptural, as they are for other aspects of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, ie Reason and Experience, which are scripturally valid.
As for "dim view" of the episcopate, episcopacy is a valid and orthodox biblical concept, and I have served as an episcopos/presbyteros (the NT does not discriminate) myself.
Whether there is one, historically continuous, homogeneous episcopate which began in the NT, continued through the ecumenical councils, and is represented seamlessly today in the RC, Orthodox, Anglican and other traditions, and can therefore be described as "the" episcopate, is another matter entirely.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
It's only on the Ship that I've come across Anglicans who deny they are Protestants.
Really? I'd come across this a lot, long before I'd even heard of the Ship. You're obviously mixing with the wrong people ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
'Protestant' is not a very useful term. Once (if ever) you agree that the Church of England is or is not Protestant you still haven't said anything much about it.
For most English speakers 'Catholic' is the name of a church - the Pope's church. 'Protestant' is a designation for churches that separated from Rome at or after the Reformation - like Anglicans - but differ in many respects from each other.
It's a bit like British politics. 'Conservative' is the name of a party (whatever else it might mean). It is opposed (or balanced) by 'the Left'. But the right wing of 'the Left' includes some who could have been in the left wing of the Conservative Party, and the Conservative Party includes some who could have been on the right wing of the left. And of course the right and the left wings of 'the Left' have little in common with each other.
As soon as you agree the Church of England is or is not 'Protestant' you have to start explaining what it is all over again.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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