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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kiss of peace in an American Greek Orthodox church
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I came across this youtube clip of the Divine Liturgy at an American Greek Orthodox church near Seattle using English.
At about 45 minutes in comes the kiss of peace. What happens is that the congregation kiss their neighbours in a restrained manner. I thought it was rather good. The priest comes down the nave shaking hands and some kiss his hand in return.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqtey_l-Uzo&index=4&list=PL_sDUxcRZTXFj9uvNN2N0nKejMB8Us6MO
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Did you have a question about this? What sort of a discussion were you hoping to engender? This by the way is Holy Apostles, where the rector is Fr. Tom Tsagalakis. I have a lot of dear friends who worship there, including one of my former Onion Dome writers.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
How common is a sign of peace like this in Orthodoxy? I have a friend who is a deacon in the Ukrainian Grek Catholic Church, and we have discussed the possibility of this being done in their churches as well. Haven't heard of any doing it so far. Is this something gaining ground in the USA? How about world Orthodoxy?
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
For my part, I haven't seen such a thing before.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
The Kiss of Peace is a fixed part of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. It is preceded by a litany with increased petitions for peace, and an exhortation by the deacon to "love one another", that we may confess the Creed with one mind.
At this point the kiss of peace is exchanged among the priests in the altar, and among the deacons on the solea. It's my understanding that this was anciently also exchanged among the people at the same time but simply fell into disuse as a practice. There's nothing to stop them from doing so, though, as far as I'm aware.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've been variously hugged and kissed at Orthodox Easter Vigils before now ...
The priest at our nearest parish is rather short in stature - even more so than me - and with his white beard it was rather like being kissed by some kind of Athonite gnome ...
Very endearing.
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It happens very briefly in our parish, as the choir doesn't stop singing and goes straight into the creed.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I wasn’t trying to start any acrimonious debate in linking this, although given the strong feelings a congregational peace raises here I was glad to show it happening in the least informal of Christian traditions.
I’m only used to experiencing Orthodox liturgy in London with ethnic congregations. What was interesting here was that the congregation behaved more like a Western congregation. They all stood up at the same time. They didn’t move around kissing icons. They didn’t chatter among themselves. They didn’t sit for the gospel (as I’ve seen Romanians) or Eucharistic prayer (as I’ve seen Greeks). They seemed to join in the chants and prayers. The sermon came after the gospel. And a congregational peace seemed part of that attitude.
Mousethief – do tell your friends at Holy Apostles how much I appreciated it. If only the camera had been from more than one position.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I know what you mean,venbede, or at least I think I do. However don't you experience 'ethnic congregations' also in the CofE ? Aren't English people also of an 'ethnic group' ?
Is not an old-fashioned group of CofE members of long standing, in a particular village just as much an 'ethnic congregation' as any group of Romanians or Greeks or Russians ?
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
O undoubtedly, although English ethnic attachment to religion is a thing of the past.
Actually I rather like what seems sloppy behaviour on the part of Greek or Romanian congregations - it shows there is no degree of self consciousness.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The way English people behave in church is bound to be in accordance of their ethnic identity. Because we are inside it, we can't see that. Ways of expressing that, though, do not remain permanently embedded in the 1950s.
[ 31. July 2015, 12:26: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I haven't regularly worshipped in a church with an all white congregation since I moved to London, so if there is ethnic English behaviour I wouldn't know.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I enjoyed once visiting an Anglican church in the south of France. As well as providing religious services the church operated a library with English books. Anyone could use the library, not just regular churchgoers.
On Saturdays they offered 'tea and biscuits'
They also had ,once a year, a special celebration for the Queen's birthday, before which there was earnest discussion as to whether 'foreigners' should be invited.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
On the other hand, churches in the (Anglican) Diocese in Europe that I have known tend to be very far from ethnic-British. The one I know best includes Italian, Japanese, Indian, US, Nigerian members along with long-term Italianised expats in a very small congregation.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Ethnic Orfie churches in the US run the gamut. The Greeks tend to be assimilationists, having pews and sometimes even organs. The Russians, infiltrating from the opposite end of the continent, tend to be "hold fast to the teachings and mannerisms that have been handed down to you" types, loath to have pews or any other trappings of "western" religion. You would be more likely to see people milling about, children running between parents and godparents and friendly teens, etc.
The converts (who in the latter fourth of the 20th/beginning of the 21st century have been coming in droves) for the most part want to stay the course of their old world forebears in the (Orthodox) faith, and quickly adopt the new (to them) practices that have been traditional (or at least became traditional by the 18th or 19th century) in slavic-speaking eastern European Orthodoxy.
Why any of this would be different in Blighty, I cannot guess.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I don't think there are many first generation converts in Greek Orthodox churches in London, despite their children being brought up in UK schools. The cathedral in Moscow Road has an English language liturgy on Saturdays once a month, and I did hear of a Greek church in Tottenham or somewhere towards the North Pole which had an English language liturgy early on Sunday before the main one in Greek.
I have attended an English language liturgy of the English speaking Antiochian Orthodox in a City of London church. That was the nearest to the Holy Apostles I have come across. Somehow something was missing for me as it was all tidied up.
And when Russians began coming over from the former USSR and the Blessed Metropolitan Anthony was dead there was schism in the Russian church in Britain between converts and Russians, as far as I could tell.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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