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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Too much wine
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
In most places I've been, the rule has been that you shouldn't really be administering a chalice if you can't finish what's left in it. If your chalices are so large that that's unreasonable, I'd say that's a decent reason to fill them less and have more of them. On the occasions where I have seen push come to shove, appropriate 'consuming helpers' have been found.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Alas, there are always difficulties in the calculation.How many in the congregation will take communion, how many will intinct, will a (rare) few not take the cup at all - these are only 3 matters which will vary the amount consumed. As a server for many years, I can still get it wrong.
As I said, there's always the aumbry. Of course, table wines will not remain usable for any length of time, but we use a good fortified wine and that easily keeps a couple of months once opened.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As I said, there's always the aumbry. Of course, table wines will not remain usable for any length of time, but we use a good fortified wine and that easily keeps a couple of months once opened.
Yes indeed. We habitually consume what was decanted into the chalices, and reserve what remains in the cruet.
AIUI, our brethren in the RCC do not reserve the Blood (or consecrate in the cruet).
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Alas, there are always difficulties in the calculation.How many in the congregation will take communion, how many will intinct, will a (rare) few not take the cup at all - these are only 3 matters which will vary the amount consumed. As a server for many years, I can still get it wrong.
This is especially difficult with weddings and funerals, where you have no idea of the make-up of the congregation.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
This is especially difficult with weddings and funerals, where you have no idea of the make-up of the congregation.
Quite a lot of hair gel, powder and lipstick I would have thought, especially at the former.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm embarrassed to say I don't know why they use the hot water instead of just water. I've seen them use a thermos if it's out somewhere they can't boil, so the boiling part perhaps isn't as important as just being hot. (Although we're a very make-do-with-what-you-have lot.)
Probably if you asked someone, what you'd get would be an after-the-fact rationalization because nobody actually remembers anymore why they started doing it in the first place. We're that kind of lot too.
quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
On the hot water/Orthodox practice: I too have seen the holy thermos of steaming water. My understanding is that the usual practice is to mix the bread, cut into cubes, into the cup. The hot water dilutes but also helps soften the bread, and helps “represent” the true warm body and blood.
This is the after-the-fact explanation that I've been given too.
Just as the use of leavened bread is understood to be because it is the risen, ascended, glorified Body of Christ that we receive, so the warmed wine is understood to be because it is the living and life-giving Blood of Christ that we receive. I'm guessing that symbolism was added later to what was simply the ancient custom of the Church.
As I understand it, the earliest Byzantine manuscripts make no reference to the hot water, and I suspect that it was introduced at a later time to reinforce the symbolism of the risen bread, perhaps during the azymite controversy.
quote:
Distribution is by spoon: a little bread with a little wine. At one monastery I was invited to receive (my understanding is this is contrary to usual practice forbidding non-Orthodox to do so). The priest did a sort of overhand catapult action: he snagged some bread and some wine, thumb supporting the spoon’s handle. Then a quick snap of the spoon against the bent index finger and bread/wine gained entry to the communicant’s open mouth without the spoon actually entering. Thank God two servers were holding a rather large dark red housling cloth in front of each communicant!
I have heard of this method of communion but never actually experienced it. I think it mainly exists in the Greek and Antiochian traditions, although it isn't universal even there. The more widespread practice, IME, is for the communicant's mouth to be closed firmly over the spoon, which is then withdrawn by the priest.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I forgot to add that the hot water is not universal Orthodox practice but is uniquely Byzantine. The practice isn't followed in the Western Rites or in the Liturgy of St James (although Byzantine Rite churches that occasionally serve these Liturgies sometimes add hot water anyway, to avoid causing unrest among the people).
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
To add an anecdote, I had a friend whose father was a vicar. One Sunday he got caught by the police and breathalysed. On finding him over the limit, they asked where he had been that day. He replied that he had been taking a communion service (he was still wearing his dog collar). They warned him to be more careful in future and let him go. It obviously didn't do his career any harm, as he later became a bishop.
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Wouldn't it safer to put a stopper in anything one is transporting a liquid in?
The law in Arizona and in most other states can be found here. Note:
quote:
"Open container" means any bottle, can, jar, container . . . or other receptacle that contains spirituous liquor and that has been opened, has had its seal broken or the contents of which have been partially removed.
Coming back to these questions, in places with this odd law, how do clergy transport consecrated wine to the sick? The little bottle it goes in has a stopper, but is not sealed. Nor is the black box the elements travel in. Or is it all right if the box is in the boot (?trunk - is that the right word?) or in a locked glove compartment?
By the way, Leo, I like your linked blog about ablutions.
[ 22. August 2016, 08:29: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Coming back to these questions, in places with this odd law, how do clergy transport consecrated wine to the sick? The little bottle it goes in has a stopper, but is not sealed. Nor is the black box the elements travel in. Or is it all right if the box is in the boot (?trunk - is that the right word?) or in a locked glove compartment?
As a matter of interest, how many Anglican clergy who take the consecrated elements to the sick , administer (or reserve) in both kinds? I suspect strictly (at least in the C of E) we are supposed to do, but the practice of most of the churches where I have served is to reserve and administer in the form of bread only. One church used to have the custom of pre-intincting (and letting the wine dry on the host before reserving). But separate containers/ chalices of wine I have never encountered.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
When I was in curacy I took reserved sacrament in both forms to the sick/housebound. We had a number of small cruets to use and at special festivals had them all consecrated ( we did have 10 churches to get around but only reserved in one).
Where I am now we don't reserve and I do a short communion service with those I visit.
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
In all the places I've worked in communion to the sick and housebound has been taken in both kinds, with the wine in a cruet. I've never encountered wafer/bread only reservation, indeed on more that one occasion I have administered to people who can only receive the wine.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
For many years we were able to acquire (expensive) superthin wafers to administer to the sick. They were so thin that they essentially dissolve on the tongue. Alas, they seem to have quit making them and now the sick people have to deal with ordinary wafers.
The other wafer angle that we have been coping with is the demand for gluten-free wafers. These are also expensive, and fragile -- made of rice flour. They go onto the Holy Table in their own little wafer box, so that they don't get contaminated by the regular wafers, and you have to know to ask for them at the rail.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Coming back to these questions, in places with this odd law, how do clergy transport consecrated wine to the sick? The little bottle it goes in has a stopper, but is not sealed. Nor is the black box the elements travel in.
About half of the people I know who regularly take communion to those of the infirm who are unable to travel to church drive SUVs, Minivans, or other vehicles with no separate trunk.
But that doesn't matter, because everyone I have seen has had the kit safely tucked in the passenger compartment with them.
I would guess two things: First, cops are unlikely to try and charge someone under these circumstances, and second, I suspect that a first amendment challenge to such an action would be successful.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other wafer angle that we have been coping with is the demand for gluten-free wafers. These are also expensive, and fragile -- made of rice flour. They go onto the Holy Table in their own little wafer box, so that they don't get contaminated by the regular wafers, and you have to know to ask for them at the rail.
I recommend to you the practice of inviting the gluten-free brigade to present themselves for communion first. That way, potential cross-contamination can be more easily avoided.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other wafer angle that we have been coping with is the demand for gluten-free wafers. These are also expensive, and fragile -- made of rice flour. They go onto the Holy Table in their own little wafer box, so that they don't get contaminated by the regular wafers, and you have to know to ask for them at the rail.
I recommend to you the practice of inviting the gluten-free brigade to present themselves for communion first. That way, potential cross-contamination can be more easily avoided.
Alas, not possible -- we are a honking big church, perhaps 200 communicants per service.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
We have a separate wafer box and (obviously) a separate paten, as well as a separate chalice. We announce, immediately before the invitation, that gluten free is available, and ask those who require it to make their need known at the rail to those administering.
To avoid cross-contamination, they are presented with the paten and take their own wafer, as the president's fingers will have been in contact with the other wafers. They need also to ask for their own chalice (which has its own separate purificator). Apparently a contamination of 20 ppm is enough to adversely affect a person with coeliac disease.
When asked at the rail, the person administering takes the gluten free paten/chalice from the altar for that communicant, and then replaces it and picks up the 'normal' paten/chalice again. Some places, I believe, have separate eucharistic ministers for the gluten free elements, but we don't have the personnel (or really the sanctuary space) for that.
[ 22. August 2016, 15:07: Message edited by: BroJames ]
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I've been in the 'opposite' situation of having to transport wine for a travelling Mass in a little (unsealed) vial in a travel kit.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I would guess two things: First, cops are unlikely to try and charge someone under these circumstances, and second, I suspect that a first amendment challenge to such an action would be successful.
I suspect you're probably right on both counts. (though IANAL). Realistically, I very much that a cop would think to search the black leather zippy thing that looks more like a covered Bible than a bag in order to find the wine vial.
I suppose, though, I've now just given any cop reading this PC to search black leather zippy things when they pull clerics over...
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I wonder whether 'the police confiscated the sacred elements' might count as a 'just impediment' in terms of the rubric in the 1662 BCP Communion of the Sick? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
But if a man, either by reason of extremity of sickness, or for want of warning in due time to the Curate, or for lack of company to receive with him, or by any other just impediment, do not receive the Sacrament of Christ's Body and Blood: the Curate shall instruct him that if he do truly repent him of his sins, and stedfastly believe that Jesus Christ hath suffered death upon the Cross for him, and shed his Blood for his redemption, earnestly remembering the benefits he hath thereby, and giving him hearty thanks therefore; he doth eat and drink the Body and Blood of our Saviour Christ profitably to his soul's health, although he do not receive the Sacrament with his mouth.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The travelling communion sets I am used to handling look something like this - a box with a handle. I used to fill them with either reserved sacrament from the aumbry or fresh stock from the vestry depending on who was taking the communion to the home. Readers or lay pastoral workers used reserved sacrament and the words for that, the rector usually took a full service with whoever he was seeing.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
The drink driving laws in Scotland have recently been made so strict that less than a glass of wine can put you over the limit, and the official advice is to drink nothing at all if driving. I wouldn't dare drain a chalice, and then drive. That's not a problem for us, as we pour the wine from the chalice into the foundations of the church (and the unused wee cuppies are returned to the bottle - we use a fortified wine, which lasts!). But I can see it being a big problem for Episcopal and Catholic colleagues.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Albertus -n what you just described would have been called by older Catholics ( and by some modern ones ) - a spiritual communion - when by reason of some impediment a person could not physically receive the Sacrament
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Albertus -n what you just described would have been called by older Catholics ( and by some modern ones ) - a spiritual communion - when by reason of some impediment a person could not physically receive the Sacrament
A few years ago I was having minor out-patient surgery (cataracts, possibly?) and could consume nothing the morning of the procedure, so I attended the weekday morning Eucharist without receiving.
(Oddly enough, I was the only one in attendance that morning who was a Eucharistic minister, so I wound up administering the Chalice, even though I was not receiving from it.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We also recycle the wine from the flagons, which each hold about a quart. The chalices are emptied down the piscina. Visitation wine is stored in a separate cruet, which is washed and refilled once a month by me, from the flagons after they have been consecrated. What makes me nervous is when I am not there to do it -- those poor shut-ins, drinking wine that is weeks and weeks old!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
I'm rather shocked at the number of Church of England clergy I know - even those who are fairly catholic in their practice - who believe "returning the element to the earth" is permitted. I can't work out where it's come from.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We have done this for as long as the church has been a building (the piscina sink is plumbed into tbe sacristy). This must make a practice at least eighty years old. Our older building, the chapel, doesn't have a piscina, so that gives you kind of a time line.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I'd never heard of it, and I'm C of E. Most of the comments about pouring the consecrated wine down the piscina seem to come from across the pond. I don't know what explains the difference in practice.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
The drink driving laws in Scotland have recently been made so strict that less than a glass of wine can put you over the limit, and the official advice is to drink nothing at all if driving. I wouldn't dare drain a chalice, and then drive. That's not a problem for us, as we pour the wine from the chalice into the foundations of the church (and the unused wee cuppies are returned to the bottle - we use a fortified wine, which lasts!). But I can see it being a big problem for Episcopal and Catholic colleagues.
Not a problem for RCs, surely? 'No, officer, there's not a drop of alcohol in me. It may have all the effects and external accidents of alcohol, but I assure you it's pure blood'.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Albertus -n what you just described would have been called by older Catholics ( and by some modern ones ) - a spiritual communion - when by reason of some impediment a person could not physically receive the Sacrament
Yes indeed. A valuable concept, I think.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We have done this for as long as the church has been a building (the piscina sink is plumbed into tbe sacristy).
This doesn't settle it. Most RC churches have piscinae, but they're not for pouring the precious blood down; rather, they're for pouring out the water used to clean the vessels in case that water still has traces of the Blessed Sacrament in it.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
[QUOTE} And it is definitely the fact that non-O's are not supposed to receive. That priest could get a stern talking-to from his bishop were this made known, up to and perhaps including defrockment, temporary or permanent, depending on how hard-assed the bishop was.[/Quote]
Heavens! Thank you, mousethief, I didn’t know the repercussions could be that strong. Hearing that I think it would have been much more appropriate for me to be thankful for the invitation, but also kind of my part to decline it. This event was over 25 years ago now. I do think they have since posted signs regarding the restrictions on receiving.
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
Hearing that I think it would have been much more appropriate for me to be thankful for the invitation, but also kind of my part to decline it. This event was over 25 years ago now. I do think they have since posted signs regarding the restrictions on receiving.
Certainly not your fault, if you didn't know the rule and were invited to receive. When in Rome (or Constantinople) all one can do is follow the prompts offered by the natives.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Vidi Aquam
Apprentice
# 18433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other wafer angle that we have been coping with is the demand for gluten-free wafers. These are also expensive, and fragile -- made of rice flour.
Gluten-free wafers are forbidden at the Traditional Latin Mass. Those with Celiac disease would have to receive a small fragment of the Host, or make a spiritual Communion.
Posts: 33 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Jun 2015
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vidi Aquam:
Those with Celiac disease would have to receive a small fragment of the Host, or make a spiritual Communion.
Spiritual then. The least speck of gluten often causes illness severe enough to miss all of life for 4 or 5 days, common among those with celiac who properly observe a proper gluten free diet. My offspring with it don't trust a host not ever in contact with "the wheat-filthy talons of the consecrating raven or the squarking magpies distributing their poison to eager birds not of their nest". (The image developed after identifying the cause of this communion food poisoning : God hating Celiacs and all. Our magpies are nest parasites apparently under the control of the Trickster, an indigenous Cree image. Why does God wish me to make sick with Jesus daddy?)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We have several parishioners at various levels of intolerance. For some, an ordinary wafer would cause no problems although a slice of bread or cake would. For others, the consequences would be much more severe.
The problem has been the subject of some discussion. To minimise risks, the first step of course is that there are separate "gluten free" wafers for those who need them. They come in individual cellophane wrappers and those serving estimate beforehand how many will be needed at a service. The wafers are removed from the wrapper without being touched and placed on their own paten. Instead of handing a wafer, the priest will offer the paten with the words of administration and the communicant takes one. Most who take gluten free intinct (we're used to just dipping one corner) as a way of minimising the risks even further. Those most at risk do not take the chalice itself.
I put gluten free in quotation marks, as the advice we have been given is that no 100% free product is available; that has been confirmed by parishioners. The amount of gluten is given on the box as being very, very low, somewhere well under 0.02% from memory. We're told by all concerned that this is acceptable.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vidi Aquam:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other wafer angle that we have been coping with is the demand for gluten-free wafers. These are also expensive, and fragile -- made of rice flour.
Gluten-free wafers are forbidden at the Traditional Latin Mass. Those with Celiac disease would have to receive a small fragment of the Host, or make a spiritual Communion.
How would a priest thus affected cope? The former RC Archbishop of Liverpool (the late Derek Worlock) used special gluten free (or maybe simply low gluten) wafers.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Vidi Aquam:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other wafer angle that we have been coping with is the demand for gluten-free wafers. These are also expensive, and fragile -- made of rice flour.
Gluten-free wafers are forbidden at the Traditional Latin Mass. Those with Celiac disease would have to receive a small fragment of the Host, or make a spiritual Communion.
How would a priest thus affected cope? The former RC Archbishop of Liverpool (the late Derek Worlock) used special gluten free (or maybe simply low gluten) wafers.
I seem to recall reading that some nuns had developed a wafer with very low gluten content that still met church requirements and received approval, at least from some bishops.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Not just the TLM, but gluten-free wafers are prohibited by the Catholic Church (no gluten, no bread).
Low-gluten wafers are permitted, of course.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
So does that mean that a gluten-intolerant priest would be prevented from ever saying Mass?
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I'd guess so, unless there were some provision for his receiving only in one kind.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'd never heard of it, and I'm C of E. Most of the comments about pouring the consecrated wine down the piscina seem to come from across the pond. I don't know what explains the difference in practice.
I once came across it in an MOTR parish (about 25 years ago), albeit I think the wine was poured directly into the consecrated ground. (I wasn't paying attention beyond the fact that my next port of call was lunch, which would include wine, and I didn't expect to have to neck a chalice of fortified wine in preparation when it was thrust under my nose by a desperate sacristan and was sufficiently relieved when the Vicar came to my rescue not to worry too much about the practicalities!)
Presumably, those who object to the pouring of the MPB into the consecrated earth also object to putting a half chewed wafer into a glass of water to disintegrate and then pouring the resulting concoction into the earth? Asking for a friend. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably, those who object to the pouring of the MPB into the consecrated earth also object to putting a half chewed wafer into a glass of water to disintegrate and then pouring the resulting concoction into the earth? Asking for a friend.
I would object to the former, but not the latter. My reasoning is that the chewed-and-regurgitated host is unfit for consumption, so dissolving and pouring down the piscina is the best you can do. Your half-empty chalice is fit for consumption, and so should be consumed.
This is more based on a sense of what feels right than on any rigorous theology, though.
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably, those who object to the pouring of the MPB into the consecrated earth also object to putting a half chewed wafer into a glass of water to disintegrate and then pouring the resulting concoction into the earth? Asking for a friend.
I would object to the former, but not the latter. My reasoning is that the chewed-and-regurgitated host is unfit for consumption, so dissolving and pouring down the piscina is the best you can do. Your half-empty chalice is fit for consumption, and so should be consumed.
This is more based on a sense of what feels right than on any rigorous theology, though.
If I did have to commit the wine to the earth, in theory, (I have never done so whilst it has been my call) I would pour it directly into the consecrated earth (ignoring the piscina) as a libation.
Would this be bad and wrong? If so, why?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I know many Catholics who commonly use the phrase "gluten-free host" to mean "incredibly low gluten hosts." I know priests and laity both who regularly receive these. I don't know of anyone who's unable to receive these for medical reasons, including people with diagnosed celiac disease.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
If I did have to commit the wine to the earth, in theory, (I have never done so whilst it has been my call) I would pour it directly into the consecrated earth (ignoring the piscina) as a libation.
Would this be bad and wrong? If so, why?
A libation is specifically an offering of wine to a god. It has nothing at all to do with Christianity.
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably, those who object to the pouring of the MPB into the consecrated earth also object to putting a half chewed wafer into a glass of water to disintegrate and then pouring the resulting concoction into the earth? Asking for a friend.
Actually, such a wafer would no longer be the Blessed Sacrament anyway, so long as the accidents (the appearance of being bread) had been so altered. A wafer dissolved in a quantity of water so that it no longer bore the discernable appearance of bread would no more remain the Bl.Sac. than (what remained of) a wafer that had passed through the digestive tract.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We have done this for as long as the church has been a building (the piscina sink is plumbed into tbe sacristy). This must make a practice at least eighty years old. Our older building, the chapel, doesn't have a piscina, so that gives you kind of a time line.
I think the piscina sink is used for rinsing the sacred vessels of the few drops that might bee left, not disposing of drinkable quantities. It is also a place to dispose of baptismal water. When I was a LEM we (priest, deacon, lay ministers) used to pass around the chalice if there was an inordinate amount of wine remaining. Then the altar guild folks washed it and poured the wash water down the piscina.
And according to Wiki, the piscina became a popular fixture in English churches during the thirteenth century.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
For us, anything that has held the consecrated bread or wine - patens (1 each for plain and gluten free wafers), chalice, ciborium etc - is rinsed into a chalice with plain water and that water is drunk by a server. Then after the service, everything is again washed in hot soapy water etc. A nice question about that practice is that there's always a drop of wine in the bottom. An under-age server will therefore be expected to consume this tiny amount of alcohol.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
When one considers beef burgundy, cherries jubilee, chicken marsala, and so on, I think the servers are well familiar with a taste of wine.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
They may be familiar, but here is a church having under-age people consume alcohol.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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