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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Religion of Jesus, or religion about Jesus?
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Interesting leaflet in my local takeaway. Jesus from an islamic pov.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Their history's a bit muddled; the pamphlet seems to imply that the church in Jerusalem had an Arian christology, which seems a bit of a stretch.
I'm also not sure how the distinction between the "religion of Jesus" (Judaism, AFAICT) and the "religion about Jesus" (Christianity) even applies.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
I'm not sure what's interesting about it. What about Mohammed from a Christian point of view? A man probably from some kind of offshoot from Arianism who received a revelation from a demon?
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
The point that Christ did not tell anyone to worship him?
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
Interesting, perhaps, if you haven't already heard these retreaded stories about burned gospels and packing the NT with Pauline letters.
Bollocks, certainly, witness this oxymoron: Christian arguments against the Trinity.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
The point that Christ did not tell anyone to worship him?
Arguments from silence are pretty weak, mostly because they can go either way. And positively speaking, we know only that he is not recorded as having commanded people to worship him; I could just as easily and accurately say that he did not tell anyone *not* to worship him.
Consider that when he reappears after the Resurrection, those present worship him. He doesn't tell them to stop.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Like 'most ever body in the OT and their God eh Ad Orientem?
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Love wins
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Like 'most ever body in the OT and their God eh Ad Orientem?
No.
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
The point that Christ did not tell anyone to worship him?
Arguments from silence are pretty weak, mostly because they can go either way. And positively speaking, we know only that he is not recorded as having commanded people to worship him; I could just as easily and accurately say that he did not tell anyone *not* to worship him.
Consider that when he reappears after the Resurrection, those present worship him. He doesn't tell them to stop.
yes - i see that - and you also seem to be arguing from a very similar position - Christs silence is not a positive affirmation of anything specific. Being the only son of God in a trinity is a) not what he was asked, and b) is very specific.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What, Muhammad's God is worse than Moses', Samuel's, Peter's, John's? (God the Killer does bleed into the NT doesn't He?)
It's well written; coherent, simple, inclusive for a tract. A clever subtly adversarial argument, dividing and conquering.
It will work well.
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Love wins
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Being the only son of God in a trinity is a) not what he was asked, and b) is very specific.
Regarding "a" it's a conclusion arrived at by looking at all the scriptures and the faith received from the Apostles. Contrary to popular belief it wasn't something that suddenly appeared at Nicaea at the request of Constantine. Regarding "b", and?
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What, Muhammad's God is worse than Moses', Samuel's, Peter's, John's? (God the Killer does bleed into the NT doesn't He?)
It's well written; coherent, simple, inclusive for a tract. A clever subtly adversarial argument, dividing and conquering.
It will work well.
Mohammed's God is not the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Dialogue is still, I think, produced primarily to provide study material for AS/A level RS.
At that level the leaflet is good for opening up discussion and debate - although I'd have thought it was better done much earlier in a child's school career.
As for Jesus from a Mohammedan point of view its rarely changed in the past 500 years: Christ holy - yes, prophet - yes, Son of God- no.
Is this going to promote worthwhile discussion between moslems and Christians - of course not. A good moslem doesn't admit the possibility of debate since Islam doesn't admit the possibility of viewpoint: there is one God, Allah, and Mohammed is his Prophet.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So those four are the same? Are they the same as the four Gods of Moses AND Samuel AND Peter AND John?
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Love wins
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So those four are the same? Are they the same as the four Gods of Moses AND Samuel AND Peter AND John?
What the hell are you on about?
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
If it has to be explained ... it can't be.
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Love wins
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I can guess, knowing you're a Marcionite. The God of the OT is the same as the NT.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Really? So I don't see God in Christ then?
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Love wins
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
You've obviously missed something then, innit.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What?
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Like what? Something gnostic? Esoteric? Something that cannot be communicated to an invincibly ignorant heretic?
How strange coming from someone accusing another of dualism.
Ah, but we're invariably guilty of what we accuse.
I'm sure the simplisticity of my only seeing God in Jesus makes me a Manichee in that sense of dualism.
But I do not believe in the God of the Old Testament as a demiurge lesser deity.
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Love wins
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Dialogue is still, I think, produced primarily to provide study material for AS/A level RS.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) If that's true it's incredibly depressing given the level of historical inaccuracy. Since when did RS become a fact-free zone?
Off the top of my head:
- The Arians did not stress Jesus' humanity. They thought he was the incarnate Logos and the first of God's creations. An Arian view of Jesus is not much closer to Islam than the orthodox Christian view.
- The Arians did not have their own gospels (a fact which ISTM is actually more awkward for Christianity).
- The Arians were not the descendants of the Jerusalem church.
- Paul preached in the synagogues just as much as the Jerusalem church (at least according to Acts).
- The degree to which the Jerusalem church deviated from Paul is a matter of speculation. But they managed to get the Epistle of James into the canon and the Church Fathers speak fairly well of the Gospel of the Hebrews. I don't think they have left us enough literature to know if they believed anything radically different - and that's a consequence of the Jewish Wars, not of an orthodox cover-up.
- Nicea was relatively ineffectual at discouraging Arianism within the Empire and totally ineffectual outside of it (the Gothic kingdoms were Arian for centuries).
[ 10. December 2014, 11:39: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
from a Mohammedan point of view
This may appear to be 'picky' but the term is highly insulting to Muslims. It seeks to categorise Islam by Christian norms, i.e. 'Mohammedan' = the religion of Muhammad as 'Christian' is the religion of Christ.
The prophet is merely that. The Holy Qur'an is the word of God. The prophet isn't.
Jesus and Muhammad do not rank/function equally.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Mohammed's God is not the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
About that I don't agree. Muslims believe in the same One God Who Made Everything. They may believe some different (and I believe false) things about Him compared with the Christian understanding, but they would be errors about the same One God Who Made Everything, not about, say, Zeus or Odin or the like.
Heck, they regard us as worshipping the same God, Christians and Jews being "People of the Book."
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
How can any group which professes to believe that there is but one immortal, all-knowing, omnipresent creator of everything propose that the similarly-constituted god professed to by some other group is a different god from the one in which they themselves believe?
Does. Not. Compute.
Either there's one god, or there are multiple gods. As with pregnancy, you can't really be a "little bit" polytheistic, can you?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Or the other option is that they have been deceived. Didn't our Lord, for instance, refer to the Pharisees as children of the devil?
[ 10. December 2014, 19:00: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
So you think there are two Gods?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So you think there are two Gods?
When did I say that?
[ 10. December 2014, 19:52: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
You said that they might have been deceived rather than being mistaken about the predicates of a single deity
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
You said that they might have been deceived rather than being mistaken about the predicates of a single deity
I say that they have it so wrong they do not believe in the same God we do, that their God is a false God. An imposter, a non God.
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
It strikes me that it's better to just pray - thinking about the details seems to end up in an infinite rabbit warren.
That was helpful, btw, Ricardus - thankyou
[ 10. December 2014, 20:41: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
In terms of tolerance, Islam is my Achilles Heel. What is done in its name in the contemporary world is so odious, that I could never take seriously any Islamic critique of the religion of Jesus. That's not to say that I don't have the greatest of respect for some of the great Sufi mystics. A more realistic attempt to separate the religion of Jesus from the religious about Jesus was made by the late Geza Vermes in his books "Jesus the Jew" and "The Religion of Jesus the Jew." Vermes, and Orthodox Jew, sought to place Jesus firmly within the context of first century Galilean Hasidism.
However I think much of Vermes' scholarship is faulty. Other Jewish scholars such as the late David Flusser and Daniel Boyarin, see Jesus as truly believing in His calling as Son of Man. Boyarin explains that the often held view that "Son of God" is a divine title, and "Son of Man" a humble title is actually the reverse. Israel is the "Son of God" and the King Messiah is the personification of that sonship. So the titles, "Son of God," "Messiah" and "King of the Jews" are interchangeable. "Son of Man" is something else. He comes on the clouds of heaven to redeem the whole world.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ad Orientem. You sound like a Salafist.
PaulTH*. You're an honest man.
[ 10. December 2014, 21:46: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ad Orientem. You sound like a Salafist.
Having looked it up, what the hell are you on about?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
You said that they might have been deceived rather than being mistaken about the predicates of a single deity
I say that they have it so wrong they do not believe in the same God we do, that their God is a false God. An imposter, a non God.
Sounds like a conservative Muslim. Talking about 'us'.
[ 11. December 2014, 06:44: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Or unitarian or bin-there-itarian.
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Love wins
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Regarding the title of the thread: neither. Religion FROM Jesus.
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
How can any group which professes to believe that there is but one immortal, all-knowing, omnipresent creator of everything propose that the similarly-constituted god professed to by some other group is a different god from the one in which they themselves believe?
Does. Not. Compute.
Either there's one god, or there are multiple gods.
Yes. But one could say, they don't believe in the one god. The thing they believe in isn't a god at all, it's a phantasm of their own invention which they mistakenly THINK is the God of Creation. This is not an illogical position.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Muslims specifically are thinking about the God Who revealed Himself to Abraham and to Moses. And, unlike some groups like, say, the Mormons (whose conception of God is, as far as I can tell, something closer to Zeus--a being who is part of the system of a pre-existing cosmos, and who has other beings higher than himself, etc.), they believe that He is truly eternal, transcendent, and made the universe ex nihilo.
I'm sorry, but I can't see that as not being the same God. I think from a Christian point of view they are heretics (and of course vice versa), but they're simply not worshipping something like Odin or Mithras.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Muslims specifically are thinking about the God Who revealed Himself to Abraham and to Moses. And, unlike some groups like, say, the Mormons (whose conception of God is, as far as I can tell, something closer to Zeus--a being who is part of the system of a pre-existing cosmos, and who has other beings higher than himself, etc.), they believe that He is truly eternal, transcendent, and made the universe ex nihilo.
I'm sorry, but I can't see that as not being the same God. I think from a Christian point of view they are heretics (and of course vice versa), but they're simply not worshipping something like Odin or Mithras.
So anybody who claims to be worshiping the God of Abraham, as long as their theology is not TOO wonky, is not worshipping a false god?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So anybody who claims to be worshiping the God of Abraham, as long as their theology is not TOO wonky, is not worshipping a false god?
That would be correct, as I understand it, yes. Not that that, in and of itself, necessarily means a lot. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." (And even wonkier/heretical theology could still be aimed at the right God, just... in a really wonky way.)
So when Aaron said, "This is your god, which brought you up out of Egypt" he was right, but just had the colour wrong?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
[QUOTE]- The Arians did not have their own gospels (a fact which ISTM is actually more awkward for Christianity).
Ricardus, I'm curious what you mean by that. I assume it's because you can infer Arian doctrine from some parts of the New Testament. I can certainly see that. Especially since there are "Bible-only" sects even today that are more or less Arian (the Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind).
Yes, that's exactly it.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes. But one could say, they don't believe in the one god. The thing they believe in isn't a god at all, it's a phantasm of their own invention which they mistakenly THINK is the God of Creation. This is not an illogical position.
It's not really a normal use of language, though. If I said "Helsinki is a village in Yorkshire," your response would be either "You believe wrong things about Helsinki" or "You are talking crap". You wouldn't say "You believe in a false Helsinki" or "We believe in different Helsinkis" unless you actually did think there was some sense in which my Helsinki existed separately from the one in Finland.
[ 12. December 2014, 05:29: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So when Aaron said, "This is your god, which brought you up out of Egypt" he was right, but just had the colour wrong?
Considering he was getting them to specifically worship an actual, physical idol, um, no, I don't think so. (And Islam isn't particularly into graven images either.)
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It's not really a normal use of language, though. If I said "Helsinki is a village in Yorkshire," your response would be either "You believe wrong things about Helsinki" or "You are talking crap". You wouldn't say "You believe in a false Helsinki" or "We believe in different Helsinkis" unless you actually did think there was some sense in which my Helsinki existed separately from the one in Finland.
I agree with this, yes.
[ 12. December 2014, 05:33: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes. But one could say, they don't believe in the one god. The thing they believe in isn't a god at all, it's a phantasm of their own invention which they mistakenly THINK is the God of Creation. This is not an illogical position.
And one could also do this with pretty much any Christian group one disagrees with sufficiently.
Also, while poking around online, I found this:
"DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH LUMEN GENTIUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964"
quote:
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
John of Damascus, if I read him correctly here, also seems to consider Islam a heresy, rather than a different religion.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All Gods are equal ... to paraphrase Orwell.
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Love wins
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