Thread: US election aftermath Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
I can't help feeling that the Democratic Party engineered its own defeat with arrogance. If they had run Bernie Sanders rather than someone whose brand they knew was toxic, I wonder how many of the protest votes that went Trump's way would have stayed with the Democrats.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.
 
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.

How so? Did Mrs Clinton's womanhood cause her, for example, to get a private e-mail server?

[ 09. November 2016, 07:37: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
No more than Colin Powell's manhood caused him to have one.

She had a private email server because the State Dept had crappy IT, because her staff didn't really give it a lot of thought, and because, like her opponent, she is not computer literate.
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.

How so? Did Mrs Clinton's womanhood cause her, for example, to get a private e-mail server?
The most over-rated issue in the election. Given that her predecessor (Powell, under Bush) used a private email account as well. Sure, not his own server, so more at the mercy of the security of a third party. At the very least, equally ill-advised, but as someone who has used his own phone for work purposes (reverse solution to same issue), also understood...
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
That's the Bush-Clinton establishment stuffed by the working class.

Clinton LOST.

She never won the working class, not just the lower either.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Shipmates I'm going to close this thread temporarily and allow analysis of the result to take place in the main thread. I believe in the value of an aftermath thread but that's about "what happens now?" rather than "why did that happen then?"

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
So with commentators linking this to movements like Brexit, rise in nationalism etc - to what extent is this the logical outcome of years of hearing about (and facing) terrorism?

The rallying call around nationalism, fear of minorities, immigrants etc.... It just feels like maybe this is the black and white view of the world the factions wanted to see.

Which isn't easy. We want security. Is there a move to deciding the way to do that is to close the world off more?
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Purgatory Hosts have discussed and are in agreement that this thread should now be re-opened for the purpose of discussing the possible consequences of the result of the 2016 election. The main thread will be kept open purely for postmortem analysis of the result e.g. the reason things turned out that way, or the pollsters got it wrong, or the demographics etc.

And you also now have two threads in Hell for venting. So you can be cross, look backwards, or look forwards! Please try to do those things in the appropriate places.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy in the main thread:
Possibly worth saying that it looks like the Republicans now have a majority in the House of Representatives and the Senate.

Which is a bit of a problem as (presumably) the Republican president will be able to get through anything that appeals to their base. Particularly undoing the climate change promises.

And here is a starter on one of the major forward consequences of the results of the Presidential Election and the Elections for Senate and House.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Does that mean that the USA is now in effect a one-party state?

IJ
 
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
Looks like the Christian right and those in power who pandered to them are going to have blood on their hands.
 
Posted by anne (# 73) on :
 
The questions that have been rattling about for me are about our response, as Christians and as Churches.

If this election result is, like Brexit, partly a consequence of fear of "other", how do we address that fear?

There will be millions of Christians who see this result as an answer to prayer - and millions who cannot reconcile their faith with the words and actions of the new President. How do we find common ground in a Gospel that we read so differently?

There are many frightened people in the USA and UK today as a result of democratic decisions that seem to say that they are unwelcome, unwanted or unimportant in the lives of the nation where they live. How do we respond to their fears?

What do I say on Sunday morning? What do I do on Monday?

anne
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
To quote myself from Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Firenze said
quote:
I see a Zeitgeist. A spirit of fear, retreat and isolationism
I think the 'Kingdom of God' response to that is embodying a spirit of grace, openness and connection.

 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
One of the aspects of Trump's acceptance speech (before he started to ramble) which surprised me was his "New Deal"-sounding promises on rebuilding infrastructure as a means of putting people back to work. Plus some open-trade-sounding words about global trading.

Warm words, but how are they to be paid for? Made me wonder what his first budget will look like.

Also, my gut feel is that he's going to tell the NATO states that they are going to have to put their own hands deeper in their pockets to pay for collective defence.

Looks like the UK stock market is treading water for the time being. I thought the uncertainty looking forward might give the FTSE a kicking - but not yet. European Markets look as though they've moved down about 1% so far. Early days.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Amen Eutychus.

anne, we stand with them, we comfort them, we defend them, we

... proclaim good news to the poor.
... proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
... set at liberty those who are oppressed,
... proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour

[ 09. November 2016, 10:34: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
One of the aspects of Trump's acceptance speech (before he started to ramble) which surprised me was his "New Deal"-sounding promises on rebuilding infrastructure as a means of putting people back to work. Plus some open-trade-sounding words about global trading.

Warm words, but how are they to be paid for? Made me wonder what his first budget will look like.

Also, my gut feel is that he's going to tell the NATO states that they are going to have to put their own hands deeper in their pockets to pay for collective defence.

Looks like the UK stock market is treading water for the time being. I thought the uncertainty looking forward might give the FTSE a kicking - but not yet. European Markets look as though they've moved down about 1% so far. Early days.

FWIW I think the markets are uncertain, and doing the best they can with the statements he's made (none of which I think should be taken as gospel but what else can they do?)

I agree NATO is uncertain, but there again we've (in the UK) swapped a president who said a post-Brexit UK would be at the back of the queue with one who's said it's going to be at the front. You'd expect in the short term the UK to suffer less than some other markets.

However, given we're in the unusual circumstances of hoping that an elected politician isn't going to keep many of his promises, I'd say it's uncertain waters for everyone.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
What do I need to do to live through this? That's my question about the aftermath.

For much of the world outside of the US, I suspect there will be a return to using the coping strategies we all employed to survive mentally during the Cold War.

For myself, if I contemplated what was openly discussed as a possibility, I would not be able to function. My wife is half Estonian. The threat to that region is well laid out and real. Under Trump, Russia can and probably will find a way to walk back into the Baltics. The ramifications of that, to my thinking, are...staggering.

If I allowed contemplation and awareness of that threat to become the focus of my thoughts, along with the other situations that have been discussed, daily living would be just too difficult.

Much like the Cold War threat would make you freeze if you let it.


Coping means compartmentalizing the personal world from the big picture & a return to focusing on the personally doable and attainable when it comes to social justice issues. It also means focusing on taking situations in hand and asking, "So, what are we going to do?" Not "What are we going to think?"

I purged about 1/3 of my twitter feed this morning in an effort to focus on things I enjoy and on places where I can make a difference. I am taking mental steps to move away from big picture discussions of grand schemes. I will also be rethinking where to attempt to make a difference.

That is how I and many others coped before under the threat of imminent nuclear destruction. We focused on what we could do personally, even if within a collective of ourselves.

I don't look upon this as a good thing, just a necessary thing.

So today I go back to work. And I [Votive]

And I suspect that is how much of the world will be gauging the aftermath - what do I need to do to live through this.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Well, we did it! We snatched the title of World's Stupidest Polity from Britain again! You thought you had us, with Brexit, but we topped you!

And now:
Obamacare is history. If you have no insurance, plan not to get sick. If you do, prayer is your only resort.
The Supreme Court is done, for our generation. It is now a partisan perk.
Gerrymandering and voter intimidation are now the rule.
Sorry refugees, you might want to go elsewhere and save on the energy of being deported again.
Latino and Muslim neighbors, I'm sorry for you.
Women, and persons of ethnicity, let's hunker down and hope that no amendments to the Constitution get rammed through.

But there is one indubitable up side. Alex Baldwin now has a steady gig for the next four years. I am so looking forward to this!

[ 09. November 2016, 11:02: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
So what does happen with the Supreme Court? The new president gets to appoint the casting vote justice with a nod through the Senate?
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
For those of us who wanted a female leader of the free world, we've got one. Her name is Angela Merkel.

Anyway, it behooves one to be gracious at such moments and to congratulate the winner of this election. So well done Mr Putin.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Il faut cultiver notre jardin*

A retreat into quietism is probably necessary in the short term, just to recuperate and recharge.

But there has to be a return to activism at some point, because sooner or later the outworkings of the change will have to be opposed (how long do we think before internment camps for Muslims?) or we have to deal with the frustrations of those who find their orange messiah has not delivered what they hoped.


*We must cultivate our garden.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
[Smile] she's the next domino to fall.

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
I think the Germans learned the hard way that right-wing nationalism causes more problems than it solves, in the long run.

Incidentally, you appear to have left Blacks and Hispanics out of your analysis of the working class.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Exit Poll

Look at the breakdown of the voters by income. Look at which proportion of which income groups voted for Clinton. She *won* among the two lowest categories. So can we all stop pretending this was a working class revolt and start using more salient terms for Trump's appeal like 'racism' and 'misogyny'.
 
Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.

What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So what does happen with the Supreme Court? The new president gets to appoint the casting vote justice with a nod through the Senate?

Yup. The senate will continue to ignore Obama's nomination, and President Trump will nominate a young Scalia, who will probably be confirmed on a largely partisan vote. Recall that he published his list of candidates, and every one has consistently published anti-abortion, anti-LGBT rights and anti-Federal regulation opinions.

Half the country is now going to be desperately hoping that RBG and the rest of the "old gang" on the supreme court hang on for another four years.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
As you know I'm talking the majority working class. White. Men and their dependent women. For now.

As for Germany: Alternative für Deutschland.

Liberals have to INCLUDE such.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.

What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?
This morning. As on June 24th.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.

What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?
In this election, at least, they didn't.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As you know I'm talking the majority working class. White. Men and their dependent women. For now.

As for Germany: Alternative für Deutschland.

Liberals have to INCLUDE such.

Not if the price is pandering to people's racism, we don't.

The AfD won't beat Merkel. The more likely scenario is Le Pen winning in France. If that happens you can kiss the Western Alliance goodbye.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Callan

I think you are right about the demographics. This thread is about effects going forward. Personally I think Trump's rhetoric has created for him various hostages to fortune. To what extent will he need to appease his angry, disaffected, misogynistic, xenophobic supporters? Particularly if costs and/or legal constraints get in the way.

For example, "lock her up". Now that the FBI have confirmed that there was no criminality found in the further emails, how can further legal questions be pursued. Will he appoint Rudi Giuliano as Attorney General? Will Comey get sacked?

[ 09. November 2016, 12:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
I think he will deploy the 'Brexit Shuffle', you know the sort of thing, did we put £350m for the NHS on a bus? Our bad, anyway, we won, get over it.

I think the economic stuff will be harder. Most of the Republicans in the Senate and in Congress are free-marketeers. So spending a shed load of money on infrastructure will come up against a bunch of people who sincerely think that any government spending not on the police or military is basically a waste of money. And stopping illegal immigration from a country with which you share a land border and which is signally poorer than your own is not going to be a walk in the park. But when they turn against him it will be because he didn't deliver military greatness and prosperity, not because he decides not to impeach Clinton.

Assuming, of course, that he doesn't miscalculate and blow us all up or decides after a set of bad mid term results that voting is a bit over rated and that he can manage without democratic legitimacy. Neither of which can be ruled out entirely.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
The more likely scenario is Le Pen winning in France.

Tell me about it [Votive]
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
An excellent article on what Trump's win says about misogyny.

"Trump’s win has trained a spotlight on the extent of the misogyny that runs through America. Importantly, however, it also reveals just how far women’s rights have come; how much has been achieved; how threatened the denizens of a fading America feel. Trump’s victory is the last gasp of a desperate white patriarchy. Clinton may have lost the election but that doesn’t mean women lost on Wednesday morning. Our fight isn’t over.'

I couldn't agree more with Arwa Mahdawi.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
An excellent article on what Trump's win says about misogyny.

"Trump’s win has trained a spotlight on the extent of the misogyny that runs through America. Importantly, however, it also reveals just how far women’s rights have come; how much has been achieved; how threatened the denizens of a fading America feel. Trump’s victory is the last gasp of a desperate white patriarchy. Clinton may have lost the election but that doesn’t mean women lost on Wednesday morning. Our fight isn’t over.'

I couldn't agree more with Arwa Mahdawi.

I'm not sure about the last gasp, but I think a backlash in this way is almost inevitable. For example, Obama is quite a cultured even intellectual guy, and inevitably some people are going to want something quite different, even opposite.

Clinton could not be that, as she was almost an extension of Obama, but then who would expect the shadow to come roaring from the caves in this manner? Well, yes, it does do that. History goes in zig-zags. Still, commiserations to all my friends in the US. Damn Brexit, damn Trump. A period of darkness now, but the opposition will grow.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
And that's the true answer. At last, there is actually something that is indeed Obama's fault. This is all a reaction to his excellent presidency.

Oh, and I forgot to add. Those brave women who stepped up and testified about pussy grabbing? Canada would be wise. The cases pending against the TFO? Smoke. We will never ever see his tax returns, you bet.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And that's the true answer. At last, there is actually something that is indeed Obama's fault. This is all a reaction to his excellent presidency.

Oh, and I forgot to add. Those brave women who stepped up and testified about pussy grabbing? Canada would be wise. The cases pending against the TFO? Smoke. We will never ever see his tax returns, you bet.

It's certainly not Obama's fault. But I think politics often proceed via reactions to previous periods, I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.

Psychologically, the shadow gets antsy, and wants to emerge. Reason leads to unreason. I don't think anyone has ever found a solution to this, have they, except to oppose unreason?

[ 09. November 2016, 13:05: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Looking at the demographics provides significant evidence of mysogyny. But there is an age differential at work. Rather as there is in attitudes towards LGBT and other minorities.

The aftermath will undoubtedly provide a check, a setback, to the aspirations to do away with glass ceilings - but I am hoping this will be a kind of dying gasp. I'm 73 years old. I may belong to the generation of those for whom supremacy and security go together, but these are not my values. Never have been. The source of my security is elsewhere.

For those supporters of his, the cycle with Donald Trump will be wild enthusiasm, confusion, disillusionment. Let's see how long it takes for those with supremacy attitudes to get disappointed by what they will see as "lack of progress".

And let us not give up. I'm not giving up on the values I hold most dear.

[ 09. November 2016, 13:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Exit Poll

Look at the breakdown of the voters by income. Look at which proportion of which income groups voted for Clinton. She *won* among the two lowest categories. So can we all stop pretending this was a working class revolt and start using more salient terms for Trump's appeal like 'racism' and 'misogyny'.

The problem with your analysis is that there isn't one "working class" that can be defined solely by income. As I said a few days ago, there are stark economic differences between people who on a simple "how much do you earn" analysis appear the same.

So yes, Clinton won 53% of the vote from people earning less than $30k. But look at some of the other measures - she only won 34% of people in small cities or rural areas. She only won 15% of those who think the nation's economy is poor, and they will presumably have judged that on their own experiences. And she only won 19% of people who think their family's financial position is worse today.

There is a difference between poor people who have seen their previous prosperity disappear and poor people who have always been thus and/or who can perceive improvements to their lot. It seems to me that that division falls primarily along the metropolitan/rural axis, and that that more than anything else is why it also falls along racial lines (the majority of ethnic minority citizens tend to live in big cities).

The metropolitan elites have ignored "flyover country" for too long, and I believe that is the main reason why the people of that area have rejected them. The same could be said of many formerly industrial areas of the UK. The establishment right wing doesn't care, and the establishment left wing is focused on increasing prosperity amongst ethnic minority populations. Meanwhile, there's a sizable population of poor white people who can see that neither side of the establishment cares about them. Can you really blame them if that leads them to vote for a non-establishment candidate, be it Trump or UKIP?
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
For those supporters of his, the cycle with Donald Trump will be wild enthusiasm, confusion, disillusionment. Let's see how long it takes for those with supremacy attitudes to get disappointed by what they will see as "lack of progress". And let us not give up. I'm not giving up on the values I hold most dear.

Exactly. We've survived Republican presidents before: Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2 (barely). We'll survive this one too. We just have to be careful.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.

Reagan-Reagan-Bush was 12 years.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A friend with more foreign-policy chops points out to me that nuclear war in the Middle East is far more likely now, since we are going to trash various treaties and peace plans.

Global warming? Get to know and love it. Safety and environment regulations, goodbye.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Welcome to The Dead Zone.

There can't be a nuclear war until somebody apart from Israel has (400) nuclear weapons. She would never use first ... unless overrun. But don't worry, Trump will never abandon her.

Iran will have to develop them and be saved from eating grass like Pakistan and worms like North Korea, by Russia. Israel won't be able to do a thing about that and neither will America. NATO won't exist. So yes, the Baltic, Georgia are lost.

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain will all develop nuclear weapons. America will make a fortune out of that. Israel and Pakistan too. I'm sure China and India will pile in. That's capitalism.

So yes, once that djinn is out of Pandora's box there will be no illusion of the illusion of hope. Any time after 2030 one will go off somewhere for a start. The ultimate Sunni car bomb in a Shia enclave.

Nobody will breathe out that day for sure!

Against a backdrop of inexorable global warming therefore drought, famine, hypercanes, flooding.

Anyone remember the Man of Sin?

[ 09. November 2016, 13:48: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.

Reagan-Reagan-Bush was 12 years.
Fair enough. I would think that for some people Clinton felt like more of the same. Of course, some would like that, and some would not. It's the electoral cycle, but it's also a psychological one, we get tired of the same tune, see the extreme reaction to Blair now. His erstwhile delightful manner now irks, or brings people out in a rash.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Obama-Obama-Clinton would have been the same from the lower white working class perspective.

[ 09. November 2016, 13:53: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Obama-Obama-Clinton would have been the same from the lower white working class perspective.

Don't agree. That is too monolithic. It might have been the same for some of them, and not for others. To find out, you need some very fine-grained empirical research.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
For those supporters of his, the cycle with Donald Trump will be wild enthusiasm, confusion, disillusionment. Let's see how long it takes for those with supremacy attitudes to get disappointed by what they will see as "lack of progress". And let us not give up. I'm not giving up on the values I hold most dear.

Exactly. We've survived Republican presidents before: Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2 (barely). We'll survive this one too. We just have to be careful.
The problem is that all three of them, even Bush jr., were competent. And look at the world after them. Trump can do more damage in four than they did in twelve.
A man who cannot handle twitter will now set policy for the most powerful and influential country in the world.
I have said I do not respect the electorate, but I am deeply saddened to be correct. Turkey, USSR 2.0 Brett and this idiot. The world is so much less safe right now and that is not rhetoric.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
The readings for Proper 28, this Sunday.

I don't think I have ever been this anxious for Sunday to come.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Oh dear.

It will be interesting to see just how many of DT's campaign pledges are implemented and where they take the USA. Maybe we should have a thread on this?

In the meantime, here are some of mine.

WALL won't be built for the simple reason that its unfeasible and no one will work on a project with no guarantee of payment. Caveat this assumes of course that the good people of Mexico don't choose to build one themselves to keep out a flood of people wanting to escape a Trump-led USA.

TAX cuts for the wealthy will happen thus giving everyone a chance to see (again) that so-called trickle-down economics don't work. It would be even better if they worked out why (rich already have money so save, whereas poor would spend) but I'm not holding my breath.

NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.

UN much more combative approach and likely to pull out of deals to do with climate change, etc.

As someone (mis)quoted on the TV coverage last night Fasten your seatbelts; its going to be a bumpy ride. Of course, the wonderful Bette Davis was only speaking of one night, not four years [Eek!]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
@ lilBuddha

It will test the strength of the separation of powers. Plus I reckon he may turn out to be a dilettante. It's not clear how dangerous he will turn out to be in practice. Watchful is a good attitude at this stage.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.
Silver lining possibility. If being in Bush's pocket did for Blair's reputation, just think what could happen to Theresa May if she went along with that sort of thing.
 
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Obama-Obama-Clinton would have been the same from the lower white working class perspective.

Don't agree. That is too monolithic. It might have been the same for some of them, and not for others. To find out, you need some very fine-grained empirical research.
The main similarity I see is neoliberalism. Which is a huge similarity...but one that Trump isn't going to change.

Apart from that, there have been some major differences, including many that we don't feel because we have three branches of government. It's a big system that maintains the status quo by default, I think. And it doesn't help that one branch of government has been completely obstructionist under the current President.

So I guess now we'll see what happens with no checks and balances, practically speaking.

Going forward, those of us on the left need to mobilize for the mid-term elections and flip Congress if we can.
 
Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :
 
Naftali Bennett, Israeli education minister, proclaims that Israeli/Palestine two state solution is dead.

Apparently Trump is expected to end US opposition to settlement building. And has also promised to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which was previously considered too sensitive to do.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.

I voted for four women, but not for her.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Does that mean that the USA is now in effect a one-party state?

IJ

We were one party rule on a national level after the 2008 election, too, except by a wider majority.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
My candidate came in third. That's at least better than my beloved Atlanta Braves did this year.

Perhaps the folks on the left will finally wake up and realize how much smug condescension costs them in the voting booth. I doubt they will, but am always willing to be pleasantly surprised.

Anyway, my guy got an astounding 3.3%. We can build on that, mmm hmm.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
The only thing to do is keep our eyes on God and keep doing the next thing, whatever it is.

Given his personality and refusal to accept guidance, he's very likely to crash and burn sooner rather than later. I'm not looking forward to the embarrassing spectacle, particularly as resolving it (via impeachment) will take a million times longer than it should, given that the people who will need to do it are the same people who couldn't bring themselves to deal with him successfully when he was an unwanted nominee.

But I'll be interested to see how the time goes between now and inauguration day. I really don't think he has ever sat down and soberly thought about how he'll do the job. We may see an attempt to run out on it, particularly when it becomes clear that in terms of ego stroking approval ratings, there's only one direction to go from here, and that's down. As it is for all newly elected presidents.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.

What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?
In this election, at least, they didn't.
I'm delighted the poor didn't.

Gard bless the male, white, Christian, technical, smalltown, straight lower middle class!

[ 09. November 2016, 16:55: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
People I've talked to today are shocked and very dismayed at the idea of Trump as President-elect. Approx how many Democrats are there in the two Houses who can oppose him?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
The GOP has the majority in both houses. Unless some of them peel off and vote with the minority, the party can ram through anything they like. The only upside to this is, now they have no excuse. They must govern. There's no one else to blame.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As you know I'm talking the majority working class. White. Men and their dependent women. For now.

As for Germany: Alternative für Deutschland.

Liberals have to INCLUDE such.

Not if the price is pandering to people's racism, we don't.

The AfD won't beat Merkel. The more likely scenario is Le Pen winning in France. If that happens you can kiss the Western Alliance goodbye.

Yeah we do. Without pandering. Polarizing, just confronting won't help. We have to subvert.

Merkel's been at the pinnacle for 11 years. Next year is 12. Then how much more? That's beginning to look like time for a change. Overdue already. In a confident democracy.

AfD I hope not, but she has internal, party competition in Jens Spahn.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

The only thing to do is keep our eyes on God and keep doing the next thing, whatever it is.

Amen. I am too emotional right now to know anything for sure except that I believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit at the worst times and in the Spirit's ability to be a guide to the eventual opening of a way forward.

quote:
Given his personality and refusal to accept guidance, he's very likely to crash and burn sooner rather than later. I'm not looking forward to the embarrassing spectacle, particularly as resolving it (via impeachment) will take a million times longer than it should, given that the people who will need to do it are the same people who couldn't bring themselves to deal with him successfully when he was an unwanted nominee.
This might be emotionally rewarding in the short term, but it may not result in the kind of healing the nation needs. And then we'd be left with President Mike Pence, a much scarier dude (most people don't pick up on this because he is pseudo-polite and soft-spoken).

quote:
But I'll be interested to see how the time goes between now and inauguration day. I really don't think he has ever sat down and soberly thought about how he'll do the job. We may see an attempt to run out on it, particularly when it becomes clear that in terms of ego stroking approval ratings, there's only one direction to go from here, and that's down. As it is for all newly elected presidents.
Indeed

sabine

[ 09. November 2016, 17:46: Message edited by: sabine ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A joke, reported by a friend:

UK after Brexit: "We are now officially the stupidest country in the world."

USA: "Hold my beer."
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
The more I look at the demographics, the more they bother me. Why aren't the lowest income bands not just half Democrat but 80%? Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope? That is a catastrophic failure to communicate by the Clinton Democrats. Where were the trade unions?

Why is the only 'outsider' a billionaire? Not a savvy, inclusive, non-demagogic, true working class hero who can win the hearts and minds of the reactionary working class despite themselves? Or the next FDR? Truman?

A beautiful black liberal American woman (hopefully lesbian!) on BBC 24 just acknowledged that the people she wasn't hearing have spoken and that we must all align together. Superb.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope?

Because it's not true, at least not for all of them. They've seen what's happened over the last eight years, and they don't want any more of the same.

Trump won't help them, of course. But he is something different and he said the right things about improving their lives, so they gave him a chance.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Poor fools, putting their faith in a con man.
Here is a post from the son of a friend, explaining why this is so sad.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The more I look at the demographics, the more they bother me. Why aren't the lowest income bands not just half Democrat but 80%? Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope? That is a catastrophic failure to communicate by the Clinton Democrats. Where were the trade unions?

Why is the only 'outsider' a billionaire? Not a savvy, inclusive, non-demagogic, true working class hero who can win the hearts and minds of the reactionary working class despite themselves? Or the next FDR? Truman?

A beautiful black liberal American woman (hopefully lesbian!) on BBC 24 just acknowledged that the people she wasn't hearing have spoken and that we must all align together. Superb.

American unions were eviscerated by the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947 and then by the failure of Operation Dixie and the CIO. It's very hard to start a union organizing drive in the US, for various reasons.

But on Trump, I reserve judgement. I believe he'll revert to type. He's a liar and a cheat, and he will cut and run rather than face the costs of his own actions. I truly believe he was lying about most of what he said in the campaign, it was hyperbole and what people wanted to hear.

He wouldn't be the first president-elect to repudiate their election platform and do a 180: FDR did the same thing in 1932. His 1932 campaign promised nothing of the New Deal, in fact his positions before his inauguration were quite right-wing and isolationist.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Trump encouraged people to vent. That can't be underestimated. Sometimes aggressive venting makes people feel better, but it can also cause people to miss the fact that their "leader" may not be taking them in the direction that leads to solutions that are good for them.

sabibe
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The more I look at the demographics, the more they bother me. Why aren't the lowest income bands not just half Democrat but 80%? Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope? That is a catastrophic failure to communicate by the Clinton Democrats. Where were the trade unions?

Why is the only 'outsider' a billionaire? Not a savvy, inclusive, non-demagogic, true working class hero who can win the hearts and minds of the reactionary working class despite themselves? Or the next FDR? Truman?

A beautiful black liberal American woman (hopefully lesbian!) on BBC 24 just acknowledged that the people she wasn't hearing have spoken and that we must all align together. Superb.

American unions were eviscerated by the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947 and then by the failure of Operation Dixie and the CIO. It's very hard to start a union organizing drive in the US, for various reasons.

But on Trump, I reserve judgement. I believe he'll revert to type. He's a liar and a cheat, and he will cut and run rather than face the costs of his own actions. I truly believe he was lying about most of what he said in the campaign, it was hyperbole and what people wanted to hear.


The thing is, it's hard to know exactly WHAT Trump was saying in the campaign(primary and general), because on numerous points he contradicted himself.

For instance, when originally asked about the status of Jerusalem, he replied that he couldn't comment on that because, if elected, he might have to mediate negotiations on the dispute. A few weeks later, he told a pro-Israel gathering that he favoured moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

My own guess is that his initial reply was the sincere one, since it wasn't the sort of thing you say in mainstream American politics if you've had any coaching. I also think this probably set a pattern for his positions on other contentious issues, whether he was moving from left to right(as in Jerusalem), or vice-versa(eg. if he eventually backs down on building his wall).

And a haunty salute to Sober Preacher's Kid if he can spot the Canadian historical-political echo in Trump's embassy posturing.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Thanks MtM, SPK - the beauty is Lisa Osborne Ross, Former Senior Clinton Administration Official.

Of course he 'lied', like FDR, GOOD! The glint, the silver lining of pragmatism. You can see him putting the stump behind him now. As long as he leaves Clinton alone AND Iran. That is critical.

Where's his Condy Rice? His Richard Perle? You don't run a billion dollar empire without HELP.

Clinton would ring Ivy League academics at 4 in the morning. Reagan had an awesome team.

The Bushes DIDN'T.

He could, should start with Lisa Osborne Ross!
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Trump said so many contradictory things, and is often so unclear (the phrase 'word salad' is relevant here) that it is obvious that what he says is not part of his appeal. Rather, his very incoherence allows people to project what they want onto the restless but amorphous surface. So, you hate black people, he's your guy. You think women are uppity, you feel he thinks the same.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The more I look at the demographics, the more they bother me. Why aren't the lowest income bands not just half Democrat but 80%? Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope? That is a catastrophic failure to communicate by the Clinton Democrats. Where were the trade unions?

Why is the only 'outsider' a billionaire? Not a savvy, inclusive, non-demagogic, true working class hero who can win the hearts and minds of the reactionary working class despite themselves? Or the next FDR? Truman?

A beautiful black liberal American woman (hopefully lesbian!) on BBC 24 just acknowledged that the people she wasn't hearing have spoken and that we must all align together. Superb.

American unions were eviscerated by the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947 and then by the failure of Operation Dixie and the CIO. It's very hard to start a union organizing drive in the US, for various reasons.

But on Trump, I reserve judgement. I believe he'll revert to type. He's a liar and a cheat, and he will cut and run rather than face the costs of his own actions. I truly believe he was lying about most of what he said in the campaign, it was hyperbole and what people wanted to hear.


The thing is, it's hard to know exactly WHAT Trump was saying in the campaign(primary and general), because on numerous points he contradicted himself.

For instance, when originally asked about the status of Jerusalem, he replied that he couldn't comment on that because, if elected, he might have to mediate negotiations on the dispute. A few weeks later, he told a pro-Israel gathering that he favoured moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

My own guess is that his initial reply was the sincere one, since it wasn't the sort of thing you say in mainstream American politics if you've had any coaching. I also think this probably set a pattern for his positions on other contentious issues, whether he was moving from left to right(as in Jerusalem), or vice-versa(eg. if he eventually backs down on building his wall).

And a haunty salute to Sober Preacher's Kid if he can spot the Canadian historical-political echo in Trump's embassy posturing.

Joe Clark FTW!
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.

How so? Did Mrs Clinton's womanhood cause her, for example, to get a private e-mail server?
No, it caused other people to care deeply about her private e-mail server.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
So with commentators linking this to movements like Brexit, rise in nationalism etc - to what extent is this the logical outcome of years of hearing about (and facing) terrorism?

The rallying call around nationalism, fear of minorities, immigrants etc.... It just feels like maybe this is the black and white view of the world the factions wanted to see.

Which isn't easy. We want security. Is there a move to deciding the way to do that is to close the world off more?

I don't think terrorism is necessary to have a fear of minorities and immigrants. Besides, you have a chicken-and-egg problem: at what point did minorities and immigrants, to the extent that they are involved in terrorism, become involved? Was it before or after they were demonised and marginalised?

For a long time most of the "Islamic" terrorism we were facing originated in other countries. In fact at first it only occurred in other countries. Then "they" started traveling "here" to commit terrorist acts. It was only after that people living "here" became involved.

And of course, the vast majority of minorities and immigrants aren't involved in any such thing.

Terrorism isn't required to resent a minority.
Mere loss of majority privilege is sufficient.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Trump said so many contradictory things, and is often so unclear (the phrase 'word salad' is relevant here) that it is obvious that what he says is not part of his appeal. Rather, his very incoherence allows people to project what they want onto the restless but amorphous surface. So, you hate black people, he's your guy. You think women are uppity, you feel he thinks the same.

Correct. The actual person Donald could well be none of the things everyone seemed so keen to accuse him off. He played a very very clever marketing trick.
As you say the "projecting" of tensions by the masses over racial and sexual politics, along with the power of denial on climate change. This is what got him past the winning post leaving most of us bewildered as in --- How in Hell did he do that?
Oldest trick in the book I'm afraid, and his opponent was powerless to stop it.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Made me wonder what his first budget will look like.

Just having an actual budget will be a big change since budget deadlock and continuing resolutions have been standard operating procedure. I expect to see big cuts in social programs, increases in military spending, and tax cuts for the top end.

I also expect that the Affordable Care Act will be quickly repealed without being replaced by anything.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Yeah, if you are poor and have no insurance you had better plan never to be ill again.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
Dumping 20K people off of the insurance rolls would be bad, to say the least.

I have heard a number of people claim that they wouldn't do it; either they are going to replace the ACA with something that will keep people who were uninsured prior to the ACA on private insurance, or expand Medicaid to cover those folks. I haven't seen that specifically proposed anywhere, though, so I have to wonder if it will really happen.

What scares the hell out of me is that the few people I know who are trying to tell me that everything is going to be fine tend to couch their assurances with "Oh sure he said that but there's no way he actually goes through with it." I don't find this comforting in the least.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh dear.

NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.


In at least Canada's case, the situation is far more complicated. We have three main links with the US -- the North America Free Trade AGreement (Canada, US and Mexico), which Trump has effecivbely promised to rip up; the North American Defence agreeemnt, which Trump is likely to decide to rip up unless Canada doubles or triples its financial contribution to US defence (we don't actually get anything out of this one -- any missiles incoming over the poles would be shot down over Canada to spare the US); and NATO.

In the context of likely ripping up two major US-Canada agreements, I hardly think Trump is going to attempt to deal with Canada on defence.

John
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
In good news, nuclear war with Russia is obviated when we become their client state.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In good news, nuclear war with Russia is obviated when we become their client state.

Harkening back to the cold war days rhetoric, wasn't there some stuff done proving that the explosion of about 3 Hydrogen bombs within a certain radius would tilt the earth's axis beyond repair?

Of course it was news during the cold war, pre web, so hardly something you could refute easily back then. But, given the times, I fully suspect all the cold war fears will come sweeping back across the zeitgeist.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
Daughter just called from New York saying there were people crying in the subway this morning. They are giving up a president who they love and admire for what? - a bag of offal. They are scared of the future, and hate the fact that Trump lives in their city.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope?

Because it's not true, at least not for all of them. They've seen what's happened over the last eight years, and they don't want any more of the same.
Most of the last 8 years America was under a republican senate and house that wouldn't do shit.
quote:

Trump won't help them, of course. But he is something different and he said the right things about improving their lives, so they gave him a chance.

I don't understand how they can be so stupid. He has spent all his career belittling people who are not rich. He will be working with a group of people whose stated motive is to end anything that helps the middle class and poor. People are so stupid.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh dear.

NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.


In at least Canada's case, the situation is far more complicated. We have three main links with the US -- the North America Free Trade AGreement (Canada, US and Mexico), which Trump has effecivbely promised to rip up; the North American Defence agreeemnt, which Trump is likely to decide to rip up unless Canada doubles or triples its financial contribution to US defence (we don't actually get anything out of this one -- any missiles incoming over the poles would be shot down over Canada to spare the US); and NATO.

In the context of likely ripping up two major US-Canada agreements, I hardly think Trump is going to attempt to deal with Canada on defence.

John

I am reliably informed that Mr Trump knows nothing about the Norad arrangement-- and he is certainly not aware that US forces are under infidel (sorry, Canadian) command for half of each year.

As far as trade goes, I recall some years ago in a previous incarnation seeing a survey that identified 14% of US folk correctly identifying their country's greatest trading partner (Canada, at that time). I suspect that Mr Trump is among the 86%. Given his habit of not receiving briefings....
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
Fortunately for President-elect Fart, there are many resources to help him transition into his new job. He's probably watching old Schoolhouse Rock clips right now. And I'm really, really looking forward to when he tries to impose a tariff on Chinese imports or get out of NAFTA and Walmart sues the USA government for billions of dollars of lost profits. [Snigger]
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
And I'm really, really looking forward to when he tries to impose a tariff on Chinese imports or get out of NAFTA and Walmart sues the USA government for billions of dollars of lost profits. [Snigger]

Please explain how you think that Walmart would have grounds for a lawsuit in such a case? The US government has no obligation to arrange its trade policy for the maximum benefit of Walmart.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
I'm guessing, but the NAFTA specifically gives companies the right to sue governments for actions that compromise their profit-making capability. Normally, this means that Walmart would sue the Canadian government if it took action that harmed WAlmart. It is within the meaning of the treaty, however, that Walmart could sue the US government for impairing its activity in Canada.

If Trump moves to tear up Nafta, as he has threatened -- not because of Canada, as A the A has pointed out, but because of MExico -- I would guess that there might be grounds for such a suit. WHether Walmart would win is probably a different issue, but that wouldn't stop it trying.

John
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
I'm guessing, but the NAFTA specifically gives companies the right to sue governments for actions that compromise their profit-making capability.

But surely if the US repudiates NAFTA, then any such rights evaporate along with the treaty?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
I'm guessing, but the NAFTA specifically gives companies the right to sue governments for actions that compromise their profit-making capability.

Boy if this doesn't flag NAFTA as evil. That a corporation should have sovereignty over a nation. Shee-yit.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.

Reagan-Reagan-Bush was 12 years.
Lincoln-Lincoln-Johnson-Grant-Grant-Hayes-Garfield-Arthur... 1861-1885; McKinley-Roosevelt-Taft... 1897-1913; FDR-Truman... 1933-1953; and supra.
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
One thing I learned a long time ago in political science was that the pendulum swings to the left and to the right.

The underlying current throughout this election was populism. Trump came at it from the right. Sanders came at it from the left.

There is just an overall mistrust of the establishment (something I remember even back in the 70's).

An interesting comment I heard this evening was America is made up of two groups: those who live on the coast, and the fly-over people. For too long the people in the middle, the flyover people, have felt their concerns were not being heard. Now, they have spoken. And America has heard their voice.

What does it mean? Time will tell.

I do know Trump will find it much harder to govern than being a business tycoon. He will have about 100 honeymoon days, and then will come the hard part. He can easily overturn many of the executive orders Obama signed. His cabinet will tweak their respective departments
Obamacare may be history. But I am thinking beyond that, it will be quite hard to get things done.

For one thing, eight Republican Senators did not vote for him. If half of them form a coalition with the Democrats, most of Trump's legislative agenda will not get through. The Supreme Court will remain centrist. Roe v Wade will remain. Equal Marriage will survive.

Give it two years. Then all of the House of Representatives and a third of the Senate will be up for re-election. If history repeats itself, like it did with Obama, I would think both chambers will then flip and then the brakes will be gradually applied.

In four years, if Trump can make it that far (there may be a number of reasons which can be grounds for impeachment), he will then have to answer to the American people. There will be a very strong opposition ready to take him on. Can anyone say Elizabeth Warren?

American has survived these pendulum swings before. It will again. And we will be the better for it.

I have been part of the loyal opposition before. I can be again.

We have been beaten, but we are not defeated.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I've just read a very pessimistic piece in The Guardian to the effect that Trump can do what he likes and keep any congressional opposition in line by pointing out his electoral success and its implications for their re-election if they are seen to oppose him.

The element that leaves out is the already manifest discontent of those who didn't vote for him, which is not going to subside if he turns many of his proposals into actions. Plus the enlistment of those presently tolerant or pro when they find their own lives adversely affected.

Extremes provoke extremes. As long as Republican and Democrat operated within a broad consensus, the majority would go along, but if you break that, then... obviously what we hope for is an energised and politicised population who will return a stonking number of Democrats at the mid term and a new President in 4 years. Rather than, say, another Civil War (though with the availability of guns that's always a worry).
 
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
...keep any congressional opposition in line by pointing out his electoral success and its implications for their re-election if they are seen to oppose him.

Is that likely to be an effective threat when they know as well as he does that he lost the popular vote? Surely, the first time he mentions his "electoral success" they will swiftly retort, "Um, Don - you came second."
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In good news, nuclear war with Russia is obviated when we become their client state.

It's kind of like saying "well I've seen to it that THAT poisonous snake won't kill you, but I'm thinking about poking some of the other ones".
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
...keep any congressional opposition in line by pointing out his electoral success and its implications for their re-election if they are seen to oppose him.

Is that likely to be an effective threat when they know as well as he does that he lost the popular vote? Surely, the first time he mentions his "electoral success" they will swiftly retort, "Um, Don - you came second."
A considerable number of members of Congress owe their positions to breathtaking gerrymanders. The Electoral College, despite its perceived faults, is at least based on some kind of rational principle about the federal nature of the country.

There's no basis for electoral boundaries like these ones other than blatant, corrupting conflict of interest.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
There may well be a swing back - but before there is, there will be 'collateral damage' of people whose lives are wrecked, as there are here.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
An interesting comment I heard this evening was America is made up of two groups: those who live on the coast, and the fly-over people. For too long the people in the middle, the flyover people, have felt their concerns were not being heard. Now, they have spoken. And America has heard their voice.

I've been saying something similar since before the election. It seems like the talking heads are finally catching up.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I'd have more sympathy for them if they'd stop blaming immigrants, Muslims, gays, et alia for the shape the country is in. That they've figured out that the Republican establishment doesn't give a shit about them is awesome. That they've decided the answer is to elect a guy who has made racist whites feel more free to attack and assault people on the street - not so much. (If you haven't seen the reports of this, say so, and I'll post links.)
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
There is a nasty smelling odour in the air from certain quarters that is trying to say that no, this isn't that bad and that those who are scared need to just calm down* because he isn't or might not be a racist xenophobic, homophobic arse.

As others have said, these kinds of statements seem only to be coming from the white privileged set who aren't likely to be much affected by a Trump administration.

*given that this is coming from Mad Melanie Philips, it is quite a statement
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
If you haven't seen the reports of this, say so, and I'll post links.
I was tempted to ignore this because I'm depressed enough already, but better know the worst.

I'm sorely tempted to revert to the archives and remind myself what we were arguing about during the Bush era. This is turning into that line from Crocodile Dundee. "OMG! That's a really bad Republican administration"
"Nah, that's not a really bad Republican administration. THIS is a really bad Republican administration!".
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I see turnout was below 50%. Of those that did vote, fractionally more favoured Clinton. Of the quarter of eligible voters who supported Fart, say a proportion were merely deluded - the he's-only-saying-that/I-always-vote-Republican/my-neighbour's-cousin-says-he's-a-nice-man brigade.

So on the plus side you might only have 10 or 20% of Americans who are spittle-flecked bigoted loonies.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'd have more sympathy for them if they'd stop blaming immigrants, Muslims, gays, et alia for the shape the country is in. That they've figured out that the Republican establishment doesn't give a shit about them is awesome. That they've decided the answer is to elect a guy who has made racist whites feel more free to attack and assault people on the street - not so much. (If you haven't seen the reports of this, say so, and I'll post links.)

Post them Ruth. I haven't been so ashamed to be English until it happened here up to and after Brexit. Including murder.

We must subvert Caesar's tyranny loyally on both sides of the Atlantic now.
 
Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
As I see US Republican friends on FB claiming that such things have never happened, I would like to see links to reports too. Always nice to have something verifiable to bring into a debate.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is a nasty smelling odour in the air from certain quarters that is trying to say that no, this isn't that bad and that those who are scared need to just calm down* because he isn't or might not be a racist xenophobic, homophobic arse.

As others have said, these kinds of statements seem only to be coming from the white privileged set who aren't likely to be much affected by a Trump administration.

*given that this is coming from Mad Melanie Philips, it is quite a statement

If Mad Mel is telling us to calm down, then in reality it's time to stock up the fall out shelter with long life tinned food. Or just run. Run! Run!!!

[ 10. November 2016, 13:40: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Yes, I caught a bit of Mad Mel last night, my God, what doubletalk. It's not really racist to say that you don't want nasty smelly brown folk next door, making curries, worshiping Baal, and FFS, having funny names that begin with Al.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
It's a new day. I'm alright now. So long as I stay in the house and don't go out where there are people. People talking, people with faces who probably comprise part of the 7,700 in my county who voted for him. And I keep the TV off and have vowed never to watch the news again. Because I don't think I'll ever be able to stand seeing Hewhoshallnotbenamed standing on the White House lawn with The First Bimbo squinting beside him, or God forbid, sitting behind the big desk in the Oval Office. Wait. I've imagined too much. I must go listen to old fifties music by the Platters for awhile.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

Nice [Disappointed]
 
Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :
 
I woke up yesterday to the first snow of the year (in North Yorkshire) and a fairyland vista through the trees. The night before I had watched the Ripon Hornblower warning all who had ears to hear that the Danes (or was it the Vikings?) were coming.

Then I switched on the TV.

My first (rational) thoughts were, with Britain out of Europe and America out of its mind, perhaps it's appropriate that the first American title to win the Booker Prize is "Sellout".

But wait! Not all Americans are crazy, and the USA is still a democratic country. Isn't it? So may it just be that Americans have chosen the leader they deserve? Time will tell. We've made some mad choices, apparently, this side of the pond. But isn't this absolutely the best argument for the Australian system (IIRC) of compulsory voting? Disasters by default might not...oh, wait another minute! Some of those Australian winners, now...
 
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I haven't been so ashamed to be English until it happened here up to and after Brexit. Including murder.

How do you know what happens "after Brexit"? It hasn't happened yet. Things might get hell of a lot worse when it does. Or they might not.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
The boil came to a head in June. Everything else is drainage.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

Nice [Disappointed]
I actually had First Slut, but changed it to try to be nicer. Forget that. I shouldn't have called her a bimbo, I'm not really sure if she is one, which implies a certain airheaded stupidity. I haven't heard her talk much, at least not using her own words, so maybe she's actually fairly smart. But I do think the slut word is perfectly fair considering how she supported herself (nude modeling, mistress of rich men,) before she landed the big charge account at Tiffany's. This was never a case of third world desperation either, she had started college when she decided to drop out and make easier money. That's a moral choice, just like the moral choice of walking in on pageant girls while they're dressing. She is as responsible for her actions as he is. I know our climate today disallows "slut shaming," (which is, correctly speaking, not this but a form of bullying young girls) but we don't hesitate to call a man like Trump to task for his immoral sexual behavior. I think they should both be held equally accountable or not at all.

In one magazine interview Melania Trump was quoted as saying, "Donald married me for my looks and I married him for his money, what's wrong with that?" I guess it's a matter of opinion whether there's something wrong with that, just like it's probably a matter of opinion whether or not there's something wrong with men indulging in "locker room talk," but I would call both things slutty and a marriage like theirs of the lowest order, demonstrating the shallowest of values.

I still have an ideal in my head where the people in the White House represent higher values than the average person on the street. This couple is a big step below average. I hate to think this woman will be in the same position as Eleanor Roosevelt or Michelle Obama, setting an example for young women as to the goals they should have and the contributions they should strive to make.

It's part of the whole tragedy of this election that we've passed up a chance to show young girls that they can achieve the highest office in the land if they study hard in school and work hard at productive jobs, and have exchanged it for showing them that they can skip all that and just let people take pictures of them with their clothes off and almost end up in the same place.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
One of the reasons why I expect the Trump White House to be a surreal place. There seems to be a built in selfish and self-centred shallowness at work. I said it in another thread but Obama's face and body-language spoke volumes today.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
And I keep the TV off and have vowed never to watch the news again.

Ditto. If news is important enough to reach me, it can do so by certified mail, return receipt requested.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Well, there's this. I had a job interview this morning for a staff writer position, and came away with this test assignment: "Write a piece about post-election stress."

[Ultra confused]
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Twilight, I hold no brief for Melania, but she didn't ask to be in the White House,* and she will hold no elected position. Why not have mercy on her and bury her in decent obscurity?

* Do you really think the Donald asked for her input?
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why not have mercy on her and bury her in decent obscurity?

OK, so long as she doesn't have Ikea in to redo the Lincoln Bedroom. [Eek!]
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Meanwhile, here's the considered opinion of another well-known world leader:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YEhNHNydIs&nohtml5=False

I'll get me jackboots...

IJ
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Og--

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Dumping 20K people off of the insurance rolls would be bad, to say the least.

Maybe "20k" is a typo, or refers to something I've missed. But if you really mean that as the total of people on Obamacare, read this from the official site (Obama Care Facts):

quote:
The Current 2016 enrollment numbers: The current enrollment numbers (as of February 2016) are roughly: 12.7 million in the marketplace, and very roughly 20 million total between the ACA between the Marketplace, Medicaid expansion, young adults staying on their parents plan, and other coverage provisions.
And from HuffPost:
" Trump Renews Call For Obamacare Repeal As Enrollment Begins About that replacement 'plan', though...."
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Twilight, I hold no brief for Melania, but she didn't ask to be in the White House,* and she will hold no elected position. Why not have mercy on her and bury her in decent obscurity?

* Do you really think the Donald asked for her input?

Because Bill Clinton's sexual past and qualifications as First Gentleman have been hashed over and brought up incessantly during this election. She may not have "asked," to be in the White House, however you're picturing that, but she certainly has been front and center during the campaign, speaking about what a good man her husband is and marching up on the stage at every opportunity. I doubt very much that she's wanting to sink into obscurity now.

I'm hearing, from all the people who maintain a hands-off poor Melania position, a bit of the protective, patronizing attitude that says she's just a poor little woman who can't think for herself and as a good wife must follow her husband's path without opinions of her own. As such she's not responsible for her actions, or the positions she endorses, in the same way the man is.

That's the residual 1950's attitude about women that's caused so many Americans to find it impossible to really picture a woman as president.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Stay on the Battlefield
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
The beginning of the end of the First Amendment?
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I see turnout was below 50%. Of those that did vote, fractionally more favoured Clinton. Of the quarter of eligible voters who supported Fart, say a proportion were merely deluded - the he's-only-saying-that/I-always-vote-Republican/my-neighbour's-cousin-says-he's-a-nice-man brigade.

So on the plus side you might only have 10 or 20% of Americans who are spittle-flecked bigoted loonies.

How very like our own dear Britain, although we do get slightly better turnout. Bang on about the 10-20% though.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
If this doesn't chill your blood, you are made of sterner stuff than I.

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is calling for the creation of a new House Committee on Un-American Activities, invoking the infamous "Red Scare"-era congressional body as a blueprint for weeding out American ISIS adherents and sympathizers.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Twilight, I hold no brief for Melania, but she didn't ask to be in the White House,* and she will hold no elected position. Why not have mercy on her and bury her in decent obscurity?

* Do you really think the Donald asked for her input?

Because Bill Clinton's sexual past and qualifications as First Gentleman have been hashed over and brought up incessantly during this election. She may not have "asked," to be in the White House, however you're picturing that, but she certainly has been front and center during the campaign, speaking about what a good man her husband is and marching up on the stage at every opportunity. I doubt very much that she's wanting to sink into obscurity now.

I'm hearing, from all the people who maintain a hands-off poor Melania position, a bit of the protective, patronizing attitude that says she's just a poor little woman who can't think for herself and as a good wife must follow her husband's path without opinions of her own. As such she's not responsible for her actions, or the positions she endorses, in the same way the man is.

That's the residual 1950's attitude about women that's caused so many Americans to find it impossible to really picture a woman as president.

Oh seriously. Because Trump et al have been assholes by bringing up everything regarding Clinton's spouse, therefore it's meet, right and proper that we should be assholes now by attacking Melania?

As for the rest of your post--you haven't got much experience with emotionally abused women, have you. You really think that she has any freaking agency in this marriage?

It doesn't matter what gender you are or what century you live in--if you're married to a partner who holds all the power cards and has no human decency but a great regard for what suits him(her), you're screwed.

When Melania does something clearly of her own accord which is worth skewering, I'll be there. But at this point, all I can see is the major, major mistake of having an affair with and then marrying a narcissistic bastard--and I imagine she has paid for that in full, several times over.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Garrison Keillor weighs in, via the Washington Post:

"Trump voters will not like what happens next."

I particularly like the paragraph beginning "We liberal elitists...". Hmmm...I wonder if heirloom tomatoes can be grown indoors?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re Melania:

When watching, a while back, an interview of a man who knew her back home, I got the feeling that maybe Melania saw modeling as the only way to get out. AIUI, that can be a dangerous kind of work, in many ways (drugs, abuse, forced eating disorders...). And she's hardly the first woman to get involved with a powerful, rich man, or men.

I'm hoping that she'll fulfill the traditional first lady role of picking a good-works project. She could do some good on her own, away from her husband.

She should be treated decently, ISTM.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

As should all women.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ok, you know that meme that is going around that shows Trump leaning over Melania at the polls? Really look at the body language. That girl is in trouble.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Garrison Keillor weighs in, via the Washington Post:

"Trump voters will not like what happens next."

I particularly like the paragraph beginning "We liberal elitists...". Hmmm...I wonder if heirloom tomatoes can be grown indoors?

I like that - thanks.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Martin--

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I haven't been so ashamed to be English until it happened here up to and after Brexit. Including murder.

Was the murder that of the woman politician who was shot in the street? (Remembering a little of the news.)

[Votive]
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

Nice [Disappointed]
Well, her current title is Third Trophy Wife. Is that any better?

Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

As should all women.
Memo: D Trump .....
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
mt--

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

As should all women.
Thanks. [Smile] And thanks to all the other men of the Ship who've said supportive things. First, Enoch posted a link to an awesome article by a *man* who really gets it and said it. Then I started noticing several men of the Ship also getting it and saying it.

IME, it's rare for men to do that.

[Overused]
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And she's hardly the first woman to get involved with a powerful, rich man.

Didn't someone named Marilyn Monroe precede her?
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Ok, you know that meme that is going around that shows Trump leaning over Melania at the polls? Really look at the body language. That girl is in trouble.

OTOH, now that The Donald is President-Elect, he won't be able to trade her in for a Fourth Trophy Wife, at least not while they're in the White House.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Soror Magna--

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

Nice [Disappointed]
Well, her current title is Third Trophy Wife. Is that any better?

Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

Someone doing work that US popular culture highly values? That fashion houses value? That seemed to be a better choice for her than what was available at home? And possibly someone in a situation she can't get out of?
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Abusive tendancies don't just go away.

Ok, I may have brought this up before, but remember that silly romp of a movie, The First Wives' Club? It was based on a rather scathing potboiler by New York socialite Olivia Goldsmith. One of the characters, Gil Griffin, was a serial adulterer on his second wife, and also a serial abuser, as it turned out. He was also depicted as a scorched earth type Wall Street tychoon, who did a lot of the kind of budget fiddling that has now been attributed to Trump.

Ivanka is listed in the opening acknowledgements as one of "The brave women who shared their stories." Some speculate that Gil Griffin is based on Trump.

The reason I bring this up is that the photo of Melania in the meme really reminded me of the descriptions of the trophy wife in the novel, her withdrawn, hunched- shoulder stance. Probably just projection, but it really gave me chills. You'd have to read the book to really understand how unsettling a mental connection that was for me to make.

[ 11. November 2016, 01:48: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 
Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

Has she hurt anyone by doing so? If not why the insult?

On another note four local Pet Partners brought their dogs on campus today. I think the university libraries organize this about once a month so that stressed out students can pet a dog and usually there are a handful of students at a time. Today each dog was surrounded by a crowd of students (and lapping up the attention).
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Ok, you know that meme that is going around that shows Trump leaning over Melania at the polls? Really look at the body language. That girl is in trouble.

OTOH, now that The Donald is President-Elect, he won't be able to trade her in for a Fourth Trophy Wife, at least not while they're in the White House.
I don't see any reason for that to be the case. There's certainly no legal barrier. And even appeasing voters need not be a concern. If they weren't concerned about his prior adulteries and sexual assaults why would they care about something as garden variety as a divorce. It's not like he was (gasp)
gay married
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

Nice [Disappointed]
Well, her current title is Third Trophy Wife. Is that any better?

Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

Desperate.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
OK, links about assaults and harassment committed in the wake of Trump's election:

From CNN: racist graffiti and several hate crimes.

If you're on Facebook or Twitter, look up Shaun King - he's compiling these things. Or see some of what he's collected here on popsugar.

Here's a collection on Twitter from people documenting things that have happened in the last day or two. Here's a sample: a young woman writes, "Today, I was harassed by an older white man who presumed I was Mexican. 'I can't wait until Trump asks us to rape your people and send you back over the biggest damn wall we're going to build. Go back to hell, wet back.' After saying all of that, he threw the water in his cup in my face, gave me the middle finger, and ran off. It took every fiber of my being to hold my tongue and not chase him down. I'm in tears right now. I've never been terrified of being a woman and a minority until today."

From The Advocate: Trump supporters smashed a beer bottle in a gay guy's face in Santa Monica, CA (known by those of us in the area as "The People's Republic of Santa Monica" because it so friggin' liberal -- this isn't just happening in red states).

More generally, and still local to me, from the LA Weekly: hate crimes in Los Angeles County declined seven straight years until 2015, at which point they rose 24 percent. Hate crimes against Latinos went up 69 percent last year.

Anyone here who supported Trump: this is on you.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I will add that I just read on Facebook that a friend from the Ship has a transgender friend who has received a death threat.
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
This morning I had yet to turn off CBS News when my local station switched to the 700 Club.

First thing Dinosaur Robertson said was, "Welcome to day two of the liberation of America."

Sorry, Mr. Robertson, America will be liberated only when Mr. Trump is defeated four years from now.

(Feeling Angry).
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Miss Amanda--

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And she's hardly the first woman to get involved with a powerful, rich man.

Didn't someone named Marilyn Monroe precede her?
And she was underestimated.

I never really understood what all the great fuss surrounding her was about, other than the obvious physical attributes. But people were so *obsessed* with her.

Then I found out 3 things that got me a little interested:

--She was a foster kid, and AIUI had a rough time.

--After she died, I saw a film clip of her bedroom or dressing room. Lots of books. I don't recall the titles, now. But I recall thinking, at the time, that if she was reading those particular books, she sure wasn't the dummy that so many people thought.

--I saw an outtake clip from a movie set she worked on. She was on break, and playing with this little dog. Marilyn was so happy and so natural. That was a Marilyn I would've liked to know.
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
For those of you who are trying to figure out how the American Electoral College works, this is about the best explanation out there.
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I see turnout was below 50%. Of those that did vote, fractionally more favoured Clinton.

I don't like Trump, I'm sorry he won, and I look forward to his term in office with trepidation.

However, I am not sure that psephological analysis is an adequate therapeutic consolation.

After all, Salavdor Allende, who is generally regarded as one of democracy's martyrs, won Chile's 1970 presidential election with the support of only about 20% (1,070,334 of 5,200,790) of those eligible to vote.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re the hate crimes, etc.:

I feel like I'm in that "Star Trek: TOS" episode where a town follows "the will of L'Andru". (A malfunctioning computer, but they don't know that.)

Anyway, they are very good and very repressed, except for a celebration where they are *mandated* to let out everything they repress the rest of the year--ALL of it. Acting out all those ugly, selfish, evil, uncontrolled things that run around inside us. Murder, rape, and who knows what else. At the end of the "celebration", the survivors go back to their repressed lives, and don't talk about what happened.
[Paranoid]

I used to think that if the US and allies ever completely pull out of Afghanistan, it would be a very good idea to teach all girls and women self-defense, and somehow arm the women. Against acid attacks, and all that Taliban crap.

The self-defense training might be a really good thing here. I hope we don't need weapons.

I periodically take basic self-defense classes, to make sure I've got the basics. It's been a long time since my last. I should seek out a new one.


[brick wall] [Votive]

[ 11. November 2016, 06:02: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

Why are people here so quick to sit in judgement on Melania Trump? Maybe she just hasn't yet collected her alabaster jar
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
So far as Melania is concerned, it's better to aim high, rather than low. I wondered if Michelle Obama had given her phone number - "ring me if it gets tough - for any reason. In confidence. I mean that".

Michelle is a class act; she probably appreciates the unique difficulties Melania is facing.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Yep, Golden Key. I always had Gene Roddenberry down as a clairvoyant with some of his futuristic ideas. Him and woody Allen with 'Sleeper'.

I learnt last night just how big an influence Facebook News feeds, along with other Internet outlets, were in regard to the outcome of the presidential election. Trump exploited it to stunning effect, but then it still doesn't escape the fact that the feeling had to be there in the first place.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Wow, the criticisms of Melania Trump are really ugly. Misogyny is still misogyny, even if you vote Democrat.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I'm guessing that this is the thread that will continue?

Reading various bits of economic analysis - Clinton lost in the rust belt, because of free trade, and so forth. Trump wants to abolish free trade agreements, and put tariffs up against Chinese goods?

Wow, is this real? Then what?

Also, he is promising big spending on infrastructure - very Keynesian! Should I laugh or cry?
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

As should all women.
As should all men? I haven't noticed this board demanding that her husband be treated with respect.

I haven't seen the slightest indication from any source that she has been abused, but some are going to just assume that. Just as some are going to assume that nude modeling, and being the mistress of various men was her "only way out," as though she was living in poverty. She grew up in a middle class home and was attending college when she decided to go another, easier way. Why would anyone think she "powerless?" She is not a hillbilly wife living in the mountains with ten children no money and no literacy and no driver's license. She, like the two wives before her, could leave anytime with millions of dollars if she wanted to.

All the "poor Melanie, the victim" remarks above, starting with the assumption that she deserves to be treated with respect because of her gender, is just what I was talking about.

Women can not expect to have it both ways. We can't pretend that our husbands, or fathers, or society in general have forced us to use our bodies to make easy money if they have not. We can't blame every irresponsible choice on the men in our lives. We cannot expect to be treated with respect if we've not respected ourselves. We can not continue to claim powerlessness if we expect to ever be given powerful positions.

This double standard has to stop. We are either powerful, intelligent agents of our own lives, or we are helpless little ladies who need patronizing protection from the big bad men. We will never have a woman president if we keep pushing the latter.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Wow, this is ugly stuff, the attacks on Melania. Nude modelling and various boy-friends, so she's a slut? Where are my Victorian smelling-salts?
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This double standard has to stop. We are either powerful, intelligent agents of our own lives, or we are helpless little ladies who need patronizing protection from the big bad men. We will never have a woman president if we keep pushing the latter.

All well and good, but no justification or need to call her a bimbo.

[ 11. November 2016, 11:22: Message edited by: mdijon ]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm guessing that this is the thread that will continue?

Reading various bits of economic analysis - Clinton lost in the rust belt, because of free trade, and so forth. Trump wants to abolish free trade agreements, and put tariffs up against Chinese goods?

Wow, is this real? Then what?

Also, he is promising big spending on infrastructure - very Keynesian! Should I laugh or cry?

He's basically posturing as an economic populist in the mode of Huey Long or Evita Peron(and I'm trying hard to avoid godwinning the list). I'm rather doubtful that he's gonna do anything signifcant in that direction, though.

I seem to recall Bush Jr. slapping a tariff on steel imports or something, and this being written up as an ideologically atypical appeal to the Rust Belt. Look for Trump to do a couple of similar things, but tweet a bunch of xenophobic slurs while doing so, to make sure his populist gesture stays in the news for a bit longer.

[ 11. November 2016, 11:32: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
To quetz,

Yes, dear. Taking off your clothes for money, posing nude lying alongside another woman, living with men who pay all your expenses. That's trading your body for money. That's pornography and prostitution. Just because she was born good looking enough to be a "mistress," rather than a street walker doesn't change anything, other than the street walker being deserving of pity while she could easily have had many other jobs. It's not a matter of smelling salts, it's a matter of doing work that does nothing to contribute to the world, work that doesn't use her mind but turns herself into an object. Is this what you think young women should aspire to? Not doctor or engineer or teacher, but pornography?

You call criticism of her misogyny. You're just revealing your own prejudice, evidently you think all women are right no matter what they do. It's okay to plagiarize another woman's speech. It's okay to express agreement with her husband's bigoted views of Muslims. It's all okay coming from her because she's a woman and to criticize her is misogyny. She has backed her husband every step of the way, particularly about illegal immigrants, always explaining that she is a legal immigrant.

This notion that she is not responsible for her views, but is just repeating what her husband says goes all the way back to the words of the men who thought women shouldn't have the vote because they would all just vote the way their husbands voted. The really ugly attitude coming from this thread is the one that says this 44 year-old woman is just an appendage of her husband with no mind or power of her own. The wedding ring on her finger is worth one and a half million. If she doesn't agree with the bigoted jerk she married she could walk any time she felt like it.

[ 11. November 2016, 11:47: Message edited by: Twilight ]
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
I guess Britain can breath a sign of relief that it is now the second dumbest country in the room. I know lots who believe in their own little insular world will say that Brexit and Trump doesn't really have any noticeable effect on the rest of the world, but sadly they are wrong. We've now entered a new world where leaders can make all manner of crazy claims against their rivals and make all manner of rash promises to get into power. We've entered a political fog without knowing what direction we are travelling in but in the full awareness that the sea ahead is littered with rocks to flounder on and it's all being driven forward by this new approach. It is an approach that will happily tell bare faced lies to the electorate, make promises they know cannot be kept, make claims they know are not true in any respect, will happily use xenophobia, paranoia, racism, sexism and fear to grab power and control. Only this morning I saw the official Facebook page of a legitimate political party publish a photoshopped picture of a political rival in a compromising situation with the deliberate attempt of raising anger and frustration. This is a whole new era of politics; the politics of lies. I guess you could argue that the nonsense fed in the last twenty years has finally come back to bite us all in the ass, but I feel we are entering a very uncertain time and a deeply troubling future.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
To quetz,

Yes, dear. Taking off your clothes for money, posing nude lying alongside another woman, living with men who pay all your expenses. That's trading your body for money. That's pornography and prostitution. Just because she was born good looking enough to be a "mistress," rather than a street walker doesn't change anything, other than the street walker being deserving of pity while she could easily have had many other jobs. It's not a matter of smelling salts, it's a matter of doing work that does nothing to contribute to the world, work that doesn't use her mind but turns herself into an object. Is this what you think young women should aspire to? Not doctor or engineer or teacher, but pornography?

You call criticism of her misogyny. You're just revealing your own prejudice, evidently you think all women are right no matter what they do. It's okay to plagiarize another woman's speech. It's okay to express agreement with her husband's bigoted views of Muslims. It's all okay coming from her because she's a woman and to criticize her is misogyny. She has backed her husband every step of the way, particularly about illegal immigrants, always explaining that she is a legal immigrant.

This notion that she is not responsible for her views, but is just repeating what her husband says goes all the way back to the words of the men who thought women shouldn't have the vote because they would all just vote the way their husbands voted. The really ugly attitude coming from this thread is the one that says this 44 year-old woman is just an appendage of her husband with no mind or power of her own. The wedding ring on her finger is worth one and a half million. If she doesn't agree with the bigoted jerk she married she could walk any time she felt like it.

No, I don't think criticism of her is misogyny. I think slut-shaming is. Oh, and less of the 'dear'.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QB] To quetz,


This notion that she is not responsible for her views, but is just repeating what her husband says goes all the way back to the words of the men who thought women shouldn't have the vote because they would all just vote the way their husbands voted. The really ugly attitude coming from this thread is the one that says this 44 year-old woman is just an appendage of her husband with no mind or power of her own. The wedding ring on her finger is worth one and a half million. If she doesn't agree with the bigoted jerk she married she could walk any time she felt like it.

From where I'm sitting, I try to give people a chance before castigating them because of an association with someone else. We know what Trump is like because he's said it in public.

It is less clear what Melania is like because we haven't heard much from her. Her views may indeed be vapid and she may indeed be a mirror of Trump's own, but we simply don't know yet.

It is true that she's married to an arse. That, more-or-less, is all we know.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
Ahem. Sorry about that deleted post everyone, I forgot where I was posting.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Reminds me of a time when I used to go to a little Catholic church round the corner, anyway, a bunch of prostitutes started attending Mass. A group of women from the congregation complained to the priest, and asked him if he could divert them somewhere else. Well, the irony, the irony.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

Why are people here so quick to sit in judgement on Melania Trump? Maybe she just hasn't yet collected her alabaster jar
What has Melania Trump in common with this woman? Have you heard that she has begged Jesus for forgiveness? Has she washed his feet? Does she even believe in him? Do we even know what sort of sin the woman in the parable has committed? You might as well say that Donald Trump hasn't collected his alabaster jar, and ask why we sit in judgement of him.

We can't know what's in the heart of anyone, yet we criticize public figures based on what we know of them all the time. There's no reason why women should be exempt from this when men are not. Also criticism is not the same as "sitting in judgement." No one has called her evil or said she should burn in hell. I don't think she's an admirable woman and as such don't like to have her in such a prominent position for our children to look up to, that's all.

I know some Christians, particularly men and some pastors, have begun to see prostitution as an exalted occupation. Any woman in the Bible who is called sinful is assumed to be a prostitute, never a thief or idolater, and the desire to forgive her is extended to admiration of a kind. I think it's become sort of a sick and rather lascivious thing. The woman in the parable is humble, repentant and a believer. That's why we should try to be like her, not because she is (possibly) a prostitute.

Jesus forgave murderers, it doesn't mean it's a cool thing and we should admire them and never criticize them.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Reminds me of a time when I used to go to a little Catholic church round the corner, anyway, a bunch of prostitutes started attending Mass. A group of women from the congregation complained to the priest, and asked him if he could divert them somewhere else. Well, the irony, the irony.

Has anyone here suggested Melania Trump should not go to church? How false your argument is getting.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Reminds me of a time when I used to go to a little Catholic church round the corner, anyway, a bunch of prostitutes started attending Mass. A group of women from the congregation complained to the priest, and asked him if he could divert them somewhere else. Well, the irony, the irony.

Has anyone here suggested Melania Trump should not go to church? How false your argument is getting.
No, no-one has suggested that, and I haven't suggested that they have. I was using an example of slut-shaming by Christians.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Interestingly when you have a woman in Melania Trump's situation (as defined by Twilight, anyway), she is blamed, as Twilight is blaming her.

On the other hand when you have the situation here described by Leorning Cniht, it's the woman who is blamed, not the young man.

Odd that?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

I would have thought that would be male slut-shaming, by which I mean, blaming the boy-friend of a richer older woman.

I don't see the difference, although as mousethief points out, it tends to be the woman who's blamed as the cougar, ball-breaker, cradle snatcher, etc.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

No, it's an attack on her choice of occupation. Only you, in your last sentence have attacked whole people as, "shameful."
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

That's just what you said, no one else did.

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children. I would like to see people who studied hard and got degrees for useful occupations rather than simply using their looks to make money. It's true that our society worships models and avidly follows the fashion industry. I don't think that's a good thing that we need to encourage. It values our outward appearance and wealth above anything else.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

I can't imagine what sites you're using. I found nothing but glowing articles about her in all sorts of online newspapers and magazines. She's being compared to Jackie O and her poor beginnings are being written as an inspiring rags to riches story.

I think she's well on her way to becoming America's Princess Diana; beautiful, with very little to say, all she needs to do is lend her name to a few charities, show up for the occasional photo op holding a sick child, and she can become the beloved First Lady of our hearts.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

That's just what you said, no one else did.

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children. I would like to see people who studied hard and got degrees for useful occupations rather than simply using their looks to make money. It's true that our society worships models and avidly follows the fashion industry. I don't think that's a good thing that we need to encourage. It values our outward appearance and wealth above anything else.

And I would like to focus on the person who actually runs for office. Why the hell should family members be relevant? Are there other jobs where you'd like to assess not just the skills and competence of the person occupying the position, but pass judgement on all their relatives?

That's regardless of the gender of the person occupying a job, but I'd particularly quite like to get rid of the idea that a woman is an appendage of her husband and must be taken into account when her husband is in a public position.

But I also don't give a damn if Hillary decided to divorce Bill and go for a Chippendale. "Spouse to the President" is not a job you will find in the constitution.

[ 11. November 2016, 14:30: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children...

Did you want Hilary Clinton in the White House with that paragon of moral virtue, and role model for children everywhere, Bill?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
The true thing is that probably nothing Mrs. Trump says or does is by her own will or choice. Certainly every speech she gives or action she takes is controlled tightly by her husband. (There was a picture of them, voting on Tuesday, that shows you what I mean.) She probably had little choice but to marry him (nude modeling is not a career that you can carry into your fifties) and being a model is what you do when you are lovely but haven't any acting talent. She did what she could to stay alive and to get out of Slovenia. We will probably never learn her true feelings or nature; they are well-hidden now for her own safety and in future she is probably bound by prenups that will gag any true confessions. If I were her I would write novels, and publish them under a closely-held pen name.

In the meantime over at the POST columnist Richard Cohen summarizes what Trump will have to do, to unite the country. My fellow genre writers agree that this could be a candidate for one of our short-fiction awards; it is fantasy and will never happen.

And John Pavlovitz calls upon pastors everywhere to speak as Christ to their Trumpery congregations. This is excellent and is a free click. I am informed that about 80 percent of evangelical Christians voted for the pussy grabber. I may have to join the Unitarians.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Did you want Hilary Clinton in the White House with that paragon of moral virtue, and role model for children everywhere, Bill?

Let's see. Trump is a racist, xenophobic, sexist, cheating, sexually assaulting, KKK-enabling, philandering, thrice-married homophobic business failure with no government experience.

Hillary used an illicit email account, is married to a philanderer, and has spent her life in public service.

How can I decide? They're exactly the same.

[ 11. November 2016, 14:52: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The true thing is that probably nothing Mrs. Trump says or does is by her own will or choice. Certainly every speech she gives or action she takes is controlled tightly by her husband. (There was a picture of them, voting on Tuesday, that shows you what I mean.) She probably had little choice but to marry him (nude modeling is not a career that you can carry into your fifties) and being a model is what you do when you are lovely but haven't any acting talent. She did what she could to stay alive and to get out of Slovenia. We will probably never learn her true feelings or nature; they are well-hidden now for her own safety and in future she is probably bound by prenups that will gag any true confessions. If I were her I would write novels, and publish them under a closely-held pen name.

In the meantime over at the POST columnist Richard Cohen summarizes what Trump will have to do, to unite the country. My fellow genre writers agree that this could be a candidate for one of our short-fiction awards; it is fantasy and will never happen.

And John Pavlovitz calls upon pastors everywhere to speak as Christ to their Trumpery congregations. This is excellent and is a free click. I am informed that about 80 percent of evangelical Christians voted for the pussy grabber. I may have to join the Unitarians.

Well, I can see that you are not slut-shaming her, Chthulu be praised, but I'm curious how you know that 'nothing Mrs Trump says or does is by her own will or choice'. Do you really mean nothing? 'Every action she takes is controlled tightly' - really?

You must have some amazing access to her private life, at any rate.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And I would like to focus on the person who actually runs for office. Why the hell should family members be relevant? Are there other jobs where you'd like to assess not just the skills and competence of the person occupying the position, but pass judgement on all their relatives?

That's regardless of the gender of the person occupying a job, but I'd particularly quite like to get rid of the idea that a woman is an appendage of her husband and must be taken into account when her husband is in a public position.

But I also don't give a damn if Hillary decided to divorce Bill and go for a Chippendale. "Spouse to the President" is not a job you will find in the constitution.

This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife. Our first lady is the closest we have to a queen or princess. All of our first ladies have been highly visible, some like Pat Nixon have been more retiring than a Jackie O, but still watched by the country and given great respect and attention to everything she says. She doesn't need to be an appendage of her husband and she may work on issues that he has little interest in.
-------------------------
That photo of Trump leaning over his wife in the voting booth does not represent their marriage. The obvious thing is that he is helping her figure out the format and wording on issues which are hard enough for people who have English as their first language -- see "hanging chads and Florida's across-the-seam voting booklet," as examples. Our local issues are always written in convoluted double negative language that seems purposely meant to get the opposite answer as intended.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

That's just what you said, no one else did.

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children. I would like to see people who studied hard and got degrees for useful occupations rather than simply using their looks to make money. It's true that our society worships models and avidly follows the fashion industry. I don't think that's a good thing that we need to encourage. It values our outward appearance and wealth above anything else.

And I would like to focus on the person who actually runs for office. Why the hell should family members be relevant? Are there other jobs where you'd like to assess not just the skills and competence of the person occupying the position, but pass judgement on all their relatives?

That's regardless of the gender of the person occupying a job, but I'd particularly quite like to get rid of the idea that a woman is an appendage of her husband and must be taken into account when her husband is in a public position.

But I also don't give a damn if Hillary decided to divorce Bill and go for a Chippendale. "Spouse to the President" is not a job you will find in the constitution.

All of this. Especially in light of the fact that most of us were very protective of Hillary's right to be judged as a candidate apart from whatever her boob of a husband did.

Why are we even talking about Melania?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Because she is a slut, obviously.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Why talk about her? Because this is a thread about the aftermath of the election and part of that aftermath is when the new first family takes over the White House.

I wonder how often the "Why are we even talking about her?" crowd has talked about Michelle Obama, praising her and expressing gratitude that we have such a classy, intelligent woman in that position?

[ 11. November 2016, 15:20: Message edited by: Twilight ]
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
That was because Michelle Obama actually got out there and made herself a prescence. She gave us plenty of material to coment on. When Melania does the same, then we can judge her by her actions just as we did Michelle.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Is the whole concept of 'first lady' sexist?
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children...

Did you want Hilary Clinton in the White House with that paragon of moral virtue, and role model for children everywhere, Bill?
Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar who worked his way up in politics to become one of our best presidents ever. He created millions of new jobs, was great for our economy, improved international relations, increased college attendance, gave the military its highest raises ever, to name a few accomplishments. I think he was a fine role model.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
It's kind of like "pastor's wife."
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

Here is a Christian who is saying decidedly the opposite. Please avoid the big brush, would you?
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
No, that would be "president's wife." What's insulting about "First," anything? Bill was hoping to be called, "First Gentleman."

It's like the plagiarism thing never even happened.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like "pastor's wife."

Thanks. Good clarification.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
And, just like the FL, people will try to get at her husband by attacking her.

By the way, didn't all kinds of ugly people crawl out of the woodwork and carp on Michelle's muscular arms and the darkness of her skin and her sturdy physique when she came on the scene?

If you don't remember, it was pretty godawful.

[ 11. November 2016, 15:49: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Wait till they start on Ivanka. She could become President as well.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children.

Twilight, and here's your mistake. Melania Trump was not elected. Mr. Clinton would not have been elected if the election had gone the other way. The spouse of a president is not elected. The presidency is not that person's job. Setting a good example is not that person's job except in so far as it's the job of any adult human being. For all the waffly yiffle yaffle about FLOTUS and potential FGOTUS positions, these are not elected or chosen positions. Nor are they compensated, to the best of my knowledge, though they may be supported with staff, budgets, etc. since the rest of the world stubbornly insists on thinking that marriage to a leader = being a leader oneself, and it would be plain crappy to abandon a presidential spouse to cope with those expectations with no support whatsoever.

If you fall into a job-not-real-job through no choice of your own, you ought not be blamed for any past behavior that censorious persons think makes you unfit to have that job. You didn't ask for it, and you could not reasonably foresee you were going to wind up in it.

It is, in short, the old pastor's wife dilemma.

Melania freely chose one position: that of life as the Orange One's wife. She did not choose the FLOTUS position. I doubt TOO ever mentioned it when he discussed getting married. She has fallen into that position, just as women have done since George Washington's day, and now must make the best of it. And it's going to be very sucky doing so with the kind of past she has. Why do you insist on making things worse?

And don't say "Oh, but she could walk away." Yes, she could--at the cost of her marriage. She has a child. Presumably she has concerns for his relationship with his father. Do you still think it so easy to walk away?

Personally you couldn't pay me to live with TOO. But she has made a different decision, and it's foolish to expect her to ditch him simply because his new position comes with FLOTUS burdens for her. And for you to bitch at her for not having an appropriate past for the FLOTUS position--tell me, just exactly how is she to go back in time and rectify that problem?

Now if she continues to behave in those ways, have at her, by all means. Not because she is an elected official (she still won't be) or chose her job (she still won't have done so) but for general foolishness and lack of prudence and charity when suddenly placed in the public eye.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like "pastor's wife."

Ha.

Great minds...
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

Here is a Christian who is saying decidedly the opposite. Please avoid the big brush, would you?
... So is that clear yet, quetz? [Big Grin]

Btw, LC, spot on.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Yes, ma'am, clear as fucking mud.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ok, what do you think of LC's actual post? Because I though it was brilliant and I agree with every word.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I see Trump alternately attacked the protesters, and then praised them today for being passionate. Wow, this guy goes beyond chameleon.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.
Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
[Ultra confused] )

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Kelly - Hester Prynne? (The Scarlet Letter).
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

Oh bullshit. We had prisoners and --well, not quite prostitutes, because she didn't take money, but in every other way-- as members of our church, and nobody batted an eye. That is, until a handful of people left the faith and promptly developed goody-two-shoe-ism.

Our host congregation, too, includes the kind of people most would pillory.

I have never personally met a Christian congregation that made assholes of themselves this way. No doubt they must exist--you seem to have met them--but I see them only in news headlines, which frankly gives me some doubt.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

I must say this is a great temptation.

I have an ethical problem, though, with claiming another religion. Will it do if I say nothing verbally but just show up in a hijab?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.
Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
[Ultra confused] )

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

Yes, although I think it's fair to point out that the attempt to market these books/seminars to "pastor's spouse" while sweetly gender-inclusive is totally missing the point. As the female pastor with a male spouse and former "pastor's wife", I have to say, being a "pastor's husband" is completely different from being a pastor's wife. A few ways:

1. At this point in time, there are no prior "pastor's husbands" and so no predecessors to live up to. There simply are no expectations for pastor's husband. You can write your own ticket.

2. Pastor's wives have an impossible to-do list, with all sorts of mutually exclusive expectations-- they must be involved in every enterprise & insure it's success, but without "taking over". They must devote hours per day to the church and listen to each and every person who "needs to talk" (even if that is to complain about her husband)-- but not neglect their kids, and oh yeah, pray 20 hours a day. Pastor's husbands, otoh, are considered with something like awe and wonder if they manage to do half of what a pastor's wife does-- "he teaches Sunday School AND he picks his kids up from school!"-- as if they were watching a fish ride a bike.

3. When you tell someone you are a pastor's wife, they will immediately ask you about your husband's church/ministry/work. When you tell someone you are a pastor's husband, they will immediately ask you about YOUR church/ministry/work.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
sorry-- that was a bit of a tangent, but a bit of feminist ranting is perhaps to be expected right now.
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Tangent. Lamb Chopped, why don't people just refuse to accept the role of 'pastor's wife'? It's what I did. I have never had a calling to ministry and have a career. I made it quite clear to churches before Macarius was appointed that I didn't accept the 'two for one' expectation.

End of tangent.
M.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

I must say this is a great temptation.

I have an ethical problem, though, with claiming another religion. Will it do if I say nothing verbally but just show up in a hijab?

I am sure you could also show up with some useful and apposite sign. Quoting Jesus, perhaps. A guy notorious for loving strangers.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

I must say this is a great temptation.

I have an ethical problem, though, with claiming another religion. Will it do if I say nothing verbally but just show up in a hijab?

I am sure you could also show up with some useful and apposite sign. Quoting Jesus, perhaps. A guy notorious for loving strangers.
The point though is not just an act of solidarity (although that's valuable) but rather to render the registry meaningless-- much like the (mythical, but based on a very real & effective threat/promise) Lutheran Danes wearing the star of David when under Nazi occupation.

Perhaps this is the solution to my "who/what am I?" thread. We register as Muslim, but when they ask which sect instead of sunni or shiite we write "evangelical Christian". We are evangelical Christian Muslims.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Tangent. Lamb Chopped, why don't people just refuse to accept the role of 'pastor's wife'? It's what I did. I have never had a calling to ministry and have a career. I made it quite clear to churches before Macarius was appointed that I didn't accept the 'two for one' expectation.

End of tangent.
M.

Many of us do. But it takes a damn strong-minded woman to do so. Which leads us nicely back to the question of whether Melania could handle doing that.

Some of us have no problems with sliding into the expectations, spotless house and perfect childen all included.

Some of us firmly inform the congregation that we are going to another church and they should not expect to ever see our faces.

Some of us try to pick and choose based on our own particular gifts and interests.

Some of us are fortunate enough to be missionaries in a field where there have been no pastors' wives, and we get to write our own stereotype.
[Devil] The one I'm writing includes getting a PhD, tutoring teenagers, and doing an ungodly amount of bureaucratic paperwork for people with no English [Waterworks] . God help the woman who comes after me. [Devil]
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
There are in fact Muslim-identifying "followers of Isa." They are Christian by any reasonable standard, but cling to the old name.
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
quote:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
That's frightening. I don't remember hearing that he'd spoken on that before.

I woke up from a nightmare last week where I thought I was in a modern-day re-telling of Jews registering in pre-war Germany. What will they do to me if I don't register? What will they do to me if I do register? Can they tell just by looking at me that I'm supposed to register?
 
Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

And probably he/she thinks the same about Hilary Clinton, for being married to an abuser and cheater, but still keeping the marriage to increase her popularity?

Or is the indignation selective?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

Oh bullshit. We had prisoners and --well, not quite prostitutes, because she didn't take money, but in every other way-- as members of our church, and nobody batted an eye. That is, until a handful of people left the faith and promptly developed goody-two-shoe-ism.

Our host congregation, too, includes the kind of people most would pillory.

I have never personally met a Christian congregation that made assholes of themselves this way. No doubt they must exist--you seem to have met them--but I see them only in news headlines, which frankly gives me some doubt.

How about my general point? That slut-shaming is closely linked with Christianity historically and culturally?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
There are in fact Muslim-identifying "followers of Isa." They are Christian by any reasonable standard, but cling to the old name.

So perhaps that's the best way to proceed should the registry be established. The point is to render it useless, to make the data meaningless.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Frankly, slut-shaming is closely linked historically and culturally with ANY form of establishment, whether of a religion, an aristocracy, or an ethnic group. It is a form of (nasty) social control. If the powers-that-be in that particular culture claim the Christian label, they will of course end up by associating Christianity with slut-shaming in the popular mind. The parallel is true in Islamic countries. The particular form of slut-shaming may take on racial overtones (love across racial lines) or ethnic ones (inter-caste marriage or romance). It's a freaking HUMAN phenomenon not linked to a single religion or other cultural group.

Most unfortunately, there is also a species-wide tendency to focus the blame for it on any religion or group one does not belong to.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Clever dodge.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef.

Yep. Hard to argue with this. It is the love child of Christian attitudes about sex, and hatred for women. Christianity created it. Christianity has to answer for it.
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
Someone already mentioned something about alabaster jars. Christ didn't shame her, whatever the church, mosque, synagogue, bridge club did, and does, subsequently.

Mind, he did want change for her. Maybe that bugs some of us, these days. Ooooh, the temerity of the man.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Clever dodge.

Should I thank you, or should I demand that you produce a real argument against what I said?
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

And probably he/she thinks the same about Hilary Clinton, for being married to an abuser and cheater, but still keeping the marriage to increase her popularity?

Or is the indignation selective?

Somewhere along the line, for the purposes of their rants, someone decided that I thought Melania Trump should leave her husband. I do not. I think that misconception came along when someone said Melania had no choice but to stay with Donald and I doubted that, that was true. Rich, beautiful women usually have many choices.

I do think she's a bit of a slut based on her past career choices. I would feel the same no matter who she was married to and contrary to Lamb Chopped's long post I don't think it matters at all whether or not she chose her position as First Lady. Still a slut. She may be a very nice person in other ways, a kind soul with a great sense of humor and a special place in Heaven, who knows? But in that one aspect I think she fits the definition. To me, selling your body, for sex or photographs equals slut. YMMV
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Okay, fine. So according to your definition she is a slut. Now what do you do with that information? That's where the rubber meets the road.

You have used it to blast her on the Internet precisely because you believe a slut ought not occupy the position of president's spouse.

We have challenged you by asking precisely what you expect her to do about it.

You have come up with no answer (bar the theoretical one of "leave her husband," which you have just disavowed).

How precisely do you expect Melania Trump to avoid your scathing criticism? What actions must she take?

Or is the answer "none are possible," in which case you are shooting helpless fish in a barrel?
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Twilight wrote:

quote:
To me, selling your body, for sex or photographs equals slut.
Twilight, I know that you claim to be even-handed in your criticism of both genders for selling their physical attributes(eg. Chippendales dancers as well as Playboy centrefolds), and I can give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

But if that is true, I would politely advise you against using the word "slut" to describe people in those occupations. In my experience, that word is closely linked to condemnation of supposedly immoral WOMEN.

So using that word is pretty much asking to be misunderstood.

[ 11. November 2016, 19:25: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I expect the answer is 'none is possible.' Women always get the blame; it is her fault, solely. He doesn't believe what I think, that she had no choice. Most prostitutes have no choice, either. They're not streetwalking as a career choice, or from lust. They choose between prostitution, or starvation.

In any case, the discussion is pointless -- as Lamb points out, there's nothing Melania or we can do about any of it. At this moment she, like we, are victims of events. I anxiously await her initiative on cyberbullying.

Here's different aftermath: the effect on the evangelical movement. They are accused of hypocrisy; it's hard to see how for some church leaders it's not true.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
This is not an entirely frivolous question, but supposing Mr. Catgrabber is prevented from being sworn in as President by (say) illness, imprisonment, natural death, assassination, or a final descent into complete insanity, who would fill the Orange-shaped hole?

Would you all have to go through the whole ghastly process again?

Would Mrs. Clinton take over, as being second in line with the votes?

Would Mr. Obama have to stay in office pro tem ?

IJ
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I suspect Pence might become president. I'm not sure whether he'd pick a new VP, or whether Paul Ryan (Speaker of the House) would move up. The Speaker is next in the line of succession, after the VP.

However, I'd be thrilled if Hillary became president.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Twilight wrote:

quote:
To me, selling your body, for sex or photographs equals slut.
Twilight, I know that you claim to be even-handed in your criticism of both genders for selling their physical attributes(eg. Chippendales dancers as well as Playboy centrefolds), and I can give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

But if that is true, I would politely advise you against using the word "slut" to describe people in those occupations. In my experience, that word is closely linked to condemnation of supposedly immoral WOMEN.

So using that word is pretty much asking to be misunderstood.

I agree with you, Stetson. I don't think I've ever used it until this thread. It all started with me lamenting the day Trump and wife took residence and I called her the First Bimbo. (To me bimbo is not very bad and only means a mental lightweight, my friends and I used to use the word on ourselves all the time.) Marvin complained about "bimbo," so I said, facetiously, well, First Slut then. First Lady who has a past of selling her body didn't have the same ring.

No, there's nothing she can do about it now. (tm Willie Nelson) That's one reason pretty young women are often warned by friends and family not to pose nude for magazines, no matter how much money they offer, because once you do, it's out there and you can't take those pictures back when you get older and want a more dignified image. Likewise we tell them not to take the easy road to comfort by letting rich men fund them in return for sex.

I cannot agree that she had no choice. She lived a comfortable life in her home country with both parents working, and she was a freshman in college when she chose to drop out. Clearly she had the choice of staying in school until she graduated, afterwards getting a good job which her degree would probably have assured her, and then supporting herself -- just like women around the world do. Why should she have as much respect as those other young women? If it's all the same, why shouldn't we tell our teenage daughters to skip college and find a rich sugar daddy to support them? Why not suggest she send some pictures to Playboy and hope for a big check in return for a centerfold?

Christians have a history of disapproving of prostitution because Jesus disapproved of it. He forgave prostitutes and told them to go and sin no more. He didn't say there was nothing to forgive. Pretending that Jesus didn't care about this, for the sake of a 2016 social taboo against "slut-shaming" doesn't make it so. He seemed to think none of us should "fornicate," outside marriage.

Yes, this disapproval is a social control, but not a "nasty," one. By encouraging people to have sex only inside marriage we make it far more likely that the children who result from that sex will have a safe, stable home life. We also keep the sex act more meaningful and more bonding within the marriage.
 
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
That photo of Trump leaning over his wife in the voting booth does not represent their marriage.

How do you know?

quote:
The obvious thing is that he is helping her figure out the format and wording...
Why is it "the obvious thing"? It strikes me that "the obvious thing" is that the photographer happened to catch the one fraction of a second when he was looking that way; the next most obvious thing is that he's having a sneaky peek at her vote. "Helping her figure out" anything is not only the least "obvious thing", it's so far from "the obvious thing" that it's invisibly, vaguely, obscurely inconspicuously doubtful.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Here's different aftermath: the effect on the evangelical movement. They are accused of hypocrisy; it's hard to see how for some church leaders it's not true.

See my thread "who/what I am now?". The top story in today's
Christianity Today (the most influential evangelical magazine, although their late-in-the-game but in-the-game-nonetheless denouncement of Trump as "impossible" for a Christian to vote for didn't seem to have much effect) is whether or not evangelicals will/ should/ need to split. There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

The bright side I think is this crystallization of left wing evangelicalism. For most of my life I've felt very much alone in this. I can remember of course election cycles when I was celebrating a Dem win and cycles when I was mourning a tragic loss, but always I felt alone. A few lone leaders of the lefty movement but always marginazlied. That has shifted over the last few years, but I hadn't realized quite how much until Wed. of this week. I saw my facebook feed full with messages-- beautiful, heartbreaking messages from members of my own evangelical church-- mourning the loss and vowing to stand with our African American, Hispanic, GLBTQ, and Muslim neighbors. Forming action plans. For the first time, I feel a part of a community, and not just on the Ship (altho that's pretty awesome too. But it's always nice to have someone to go out for a beer with who's feeling what you're feeling-- as I did yesterday).
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

But if one simply accepts this, it seems to me it's handing Trump and his ilk more ammunition for their tactic of division, and retreating still further into an echo chamber.

We can disagree about lots of things, but it seems so important to me to keep conversations going across seemingly unbridgeable divides. I think this is the real, and really countrer-cultural, challenge.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

The bright side I think is this crystallization of left wing evangelicalism. For most of my life I've felt very much alone in this. I can remember of course election cycles when I was celebrating a Dem win and cycles when I was mourning a tragic loss, but always I felt alone. A few lone leaders of the lefty movement but always marginazlied. That has shifted over the last few years, but I hadn't realized quite how much until Wed. of this week. I saw my facebook feed full with messages-- beautiful, heartbreaking messages from members of my own evangelical church-- mourning the loss and vowing to stand with our African American, Hispanic, GLBTQ, and Muslim neighbors. Forming action plans. For the first time, I feel a part of a community, and not just on the Ship (altho that's pretty awesome too. But it's always nice to have someone to go out for a beer with who's feeling what you're feeling-- as I did yesterday).

From the other side of the pond ...

cliffdweller, I think it's been much harder for you than for me, and for others of my friends. There isn't this direct political connection in the UK, though if it begins to harden over here, I'll ditch the evangelical identification on the grounds that the word has collected too much baggage. (I think that is what Tony Campolo has felt compelled to do).

It's a great shame, but maybe some kind of realignment is necessary now?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

The bright side I think is this crystallization of left wing evangelicalism. For most of my life I've felt very much alone in this. I can remember of course election cycles when I was celebrating a Dem win and cycles when I was mourning a tragic loss, but always I felt alone. A few lone leaders of the lefty movement but always marginazlied. That has shifted over the last few years, but I hadn't realized quite how much until Wed. of this week. I saw my facebook feed full with messages-- beautiful, heartbreaking messages from members of my own evangelical church-- mourning the loss and vowing to stand with our African American, Hispanic, GLBTQ, and Muslim neighbors. Forming action plans. For the first time, I feel a part of a community, and not just on the Ship (altho that's pretty awesome too. But it's always nice to have someone to go out for a beer with who's feeling what you're feeling-- as I did yesterday).

From the other side of the pond ...

cliffdweller, I think it's been much harder for you than for me, and for others of my friends. There isn't this direct political connection in the UK, though if it begins to harden over here, I'll ditch the evangelical identification on the grounds that the word has collected too much baggage. (I think that is what Tony Campolo has felt compelled to do).

It's a great shame, but maybe some kind of realignment is necessary now?

Yes. And perhaps that will help us feel less alone, when we stop trying to pretend we are all one big happy family.

I just know that this week has been heartbreaking, disappointing, and sorrowful... and yet I've never felt so connected to my faith community. Whatever we end up calling ourselves.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

But if one simply accepts this, it seems to me it's handing Trump and his ilk more ammunition for their tactic of division, and retreating still further into an echo chamber.

We can disagree about lots of things, but it seems so important to me to keep conversations going across seemingly unbridgeable divides. I think this is the real, and really countrer-cultural, challenge.

Well, that's a good point, and well worth considering. Perhaps later, when the wound is less raw.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Cliffdweller, (I'm on my phone so cutting and pasting is too hard), your post about the crystallization of lefty evangelicalism was very moving. I wish it were easier for lefty Orthodox to raise their heads above the parapet without fear of decapitation. I wonder how, if at all, the next four years will affect this.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I will not quit my church now, because the plan is for us to move in a few years anyway. But when we do move, I'm going to be ISO one of those nice lefty evangelical churches. I don't feel I have much in common with people who can excuse crotch groping.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Kelly - Hester Prynne? (The Scarlet Letter).

... You do realize that this book was written by a Christian man, as a protest against hypocritical attitudes within Christianity, and was widely celebrated within Christianity. Hester was the hero of the story.

If you think of the primordial soup of Middle Eastern/ Medditerranian cultures as what Christianity emerged from, then you'll see that all of them were slut- shaming in one way or another. People in power have generally kept them in place, there has always been a majority of people who just went along, there has always been people who ( in measures large and small) have spoken against it. Nathaniel Hawethorn was one of them.

[ 11. November 2016, 23:50: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
That photo of Trump leaning over his wife in the voting booth does not represent their marriage.

How do you know?

quote:
The obvious thing is that he is helping her figure out the format and wording...
Why is it "the obvious thing"? It strikes me that "the obvious thing" is that the photographer happened to catch the one fraction of a second when he was looking that way; the next most obvious thing is that he's having a sneaky peek at her vote. "Helping her figure out" anything is not only the least "obvious thing", it's so far from "the obvious thing" that it's invisibly, vaguely, obscurely inconspicuously doubtful.

First of all, to add to your point, I don't know how it goes in the UK, but voting etiquette here says leaning over someone to look at their ballot is a big no-no. If she was having trouble, he should have left it to the poll staff. I just have a thing about that. At best, it's plain bad manners, IMO.

Second, his posture is one thing, but there was something about the way the young woman was hunching her shoulders-- like she didn't like him looking over-- that made me go all mother bear. I'm inclined to keep my mouth off her past and keep her in my prayers.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.
Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
[Ultra confused] )

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

John
 
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
Just a question from a Canadian:

What is different about voter registration in the United States than in Canada? Here in Canada, I registered as a voter on voting day at my first election by bringing 2 pieces of ID. Even if I didn't have any ID, as long as I had someone with 2 pieces of ID to vouch for me, I could be registered. It was pretty simple and straight forward.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.) [/QB]
The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod does not ordain women, something a lot more sexist than condemning Melania Trump for selling herself. It is also homophobic.

[ 12. November 2016, 00:55: Message edited by: RuthW ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
In the Orthodox Church the priest's wife has a title (slavonic: Matushka; arabic: Khouria; Greek: Presvytera) and is considered an unofficial spiritual leader in the parish. How this plays out varies from country to country and parish to parish.
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

John

Mileage will vary, but in cases I have seen where there has been a female pastor with a husband, the church has accepted that "he should have his own career" and not seen him as a freebie extra employee. In those circles (admittedly a small sample compared with the world) it appears to be only pastor's wives who ought to be defined by the pastoral calling of their spouse.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod does not ordain women, something a lot more sexist than condemning Melania Trump for selling herself. It is also homophobic.

Don't we have a whole thread in Dead Horses for bashing my church body? Sheesh.

If anybody wants to PM me about the whys and wherefores of our non-ordination of women or our stance on homosexuality, you are welcome to. I'm not derailing this thread any further here.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Just a question from a Canadian:

What is different about voter registration in the United States than in Canada? Here in Canada, I registered as a voter on voting day at my first election by bringing 2 pieces of ID. Even if I didn't have any ID, as long as I had someone with 2 pieces of ID to vouch for me, I could be registered. It was pretty simple and straight forward.

It varies by state, so you have roughly 50 variants. By and large, you have to register some period of time before the actual election day -- a month, a week, whatever. You do have to prove that you live in the jurisdiction. On election day in my state, when you go to your polling place, they have a large printout of all the voters in the district. You march up, announce your name, and they find you on the gigantic list. Usually you have to answer a simple question, like "and what is your street address?" which if you rattle off easily gets you right on in.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
What about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

John

See my post following closely after Lamb's. In our experience, the two are not at all comparable at this point in time. In a few decades though, when there's 3 or 4 generations of "pastor's husbands" for the newbie to live up to, yeah, they'll probably be in the same boat.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
(I'm not sure what I think of this, but it's probably worth considering.)

In December, the US Electoral College meets to solidify which candidate is president. While electors are assigned to vote a certain way, they can do otherwise. It's been done many times.

So there's a Change (dot org) petition (gone viral) to ask the electors to spare us Trump and cast their votes for Hillary. (Remember: she did win the popular vote.)

As of now, the petition has 3,224,732 supporters!

I know we can't put direct links to petitions in our posts; but the very first sentence of this "People" article has a link to it.

Very much FWIW and YMMV.

NOTE: This petition is for Americans ONLY, in keeping with our laws.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
And probably he/she thinks the same about Hilary Clinton, for being married to an abuser and cheater, but still keeping the marriage to increase her popularity?

I don't think any of us are in a position to judge why Hillary remains married to Bill. Perhaps she just has old-fashioned views about what a marriage vow means.

And the same goes for Melania Trump. Asking why she married him in the first place is one thing, but asking why she remains married to him is quite another thing. (And yes, this is Trump's third marriage. It's Melania's only marriage, and perhaps she takes her vows a little more seriously than her husband did.)
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
GK - what would happen if they did, and she got it?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Wes--

I think that the final electoral college result would go to Congress for approval...and, of course, Republicans are in power, so they'd *probably* vote it down. (Saw that mentioned in a relevant article.)

But...it could give any of the saner Republicans an out. "Precedent...will of the people...and we know how to deal with a Clinton", etc. Some of them said they wouldn't vote for Trump, and maybe they've begun to sense some of the repercussions of a Trump presidency.

I'd been hoping the electors might change their votes to Clinton. The petition is just a way to try to nudge them.

Worth a try, so I've signed it.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
This is not an entirely frivolous question, but supposing Mr. Catgrabber is prevented from being sworn in as President by (say) illness, imprisonment, natural death, assassination, or a final descent into complete insanity, who would fill the Orange-shaped hole?

Would you all have to go through the whole ghastly process again?

Would Mrs. Clinton take over, as being second in line with the votes?

If something happened to Trump between now and the Electoral College casting their votes, the republican electors would have to cast their votes for someone else. Presumably the republican party would nominate someone (may or may not be Mike Pence). If it was Mike Pence, they'd have to come up with a different nominee for VP.

If something happened to Trump after he became President, Mike Pence would become President, and
would nominate some other person to be VP.

If something happened to Trump between the electoral college vote and the inauguration, I don't think I know what happens. I'd guess you'd inaugurate Pence as President and he would pick a VP.

The only way Paul Ryan gets in the frame is if something happens to both Trump and Pence at the same time. Otherwise the new President picks a VP.
(When Spiro Agnew resigned as VP, Nixon picked Gerald Ford, who became President when Nixon resigned. Ford became both VP and President without being elected to either office.)
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:


And the same goes for Melania Trump. Asking why she married him in the first place is one thing, but asking why she remains married to him is quite another thing. (And yes, this is Trump's third marriage. It's Melania's only marriage, and perhaps she takes her vows a little more seriously than her husband did.)

In general I agree. Marriages are complicated and personal things, we really can't speculate. I would speculate however, that the fact that Melania's affair with Trump is what broke up marriage #2 (much like #2 did for #1) that "taking marriage vows seriously" may not be high on either one of their lists.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would speculate however, that the fact that Melania's affair with Trump is what broke up marriage #2

I don't think that's a fact. Whilst Trump didn't get a divorce until after he'd met Melania, he had been separated from Marla for 18 months or so, and dating other women, before he met Melania.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod does not ordain women, something a lot more sexist than condemning Melania Trump for selling herself. It is also homophobic. [/QB]
I dunno. I would think if anyone has a problem with misogynistic language or slut- shaming, they would be encouraged that people from traditionally conservative churches would call it out.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I would think if anyone has a problem with misogynistic language or slut- shaming, they would be encouraged that people from traditionally conservative churches would call it out.

It might be encouraging in some instances, but I find the comparison of the role of First Lady to the role of a pastor's wife in a conservative church weirdly apt, in that these are both highly gendered roles, and also evidence of the continued sexism in both church and state. They both do a hell of a lot of unpaid labor to which they might or might not be suited and they both occupy their positions because of their husbands' positions.

And Lamb Chopped, there are actually at least two threads on which your church can get bashed in Dead Horses, one for the sexism and one for the homophobia, and I don't consider bringing those issues up in this thread to be at all out of line. The sexism that continues to permeate our culture was in obvious display throughout the campaign, and the next VP thinks conversion therapy for gays is a good thing. Churches such as yours are promoting the backward kind of thinking that is going to "make America great again." If churches don't treat women and gay people like full and complete human beings made in the image of God, they simply drag the culture down until people figure out they're completely wrong about these things, whereupon they ditch the churches, which then become culturally irrelevant.

A further thought on the sexism evident in the campaign: I watched two hours of PBS news this evening, full of analysis of how Trump won and Clinton lost, and not one single word was spoken about even the possibility that sexism was a factor. This chimes with something I have long thought: sexism is so ingrained that it is normal and natural and unremarkable, and thus very hard to see, even for women.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I would think if anyone has a problem with misogynistic language or slut- shaming, they would be encouraged that people from traditionally conservative churches would call it out.

It might be encouraging in some instances, but I find the comparison of the role of First Lady to the role of a pastor's wife in a conservative church weirdly apt, in that these are both highly gendered roles, and also evidence of the continued sexism in both church and state. They both do a hell of a lot of unpaid labor to which they might or might not be suited and they both occupy their positions because of their husbands' positions.

Well, when you put it that way, I totally agree with you. But based on LC's post, I suspect she does, too. With a lot of it, anyway.

I left the LCMS church for a lot of the reasons you state, but I would have stood on my head with joy if I heard one of my former church mavens stand up for one of us girls the way LC just stood up for Melania. As it was, boy- coddling and slut- shaming went hand in hand at my old church-- the very boys who were turning the girls into sluts were being groomed for the ministry, every one of them. It doesn't matter what church a girl happens to be in, an older woman condemning her being shamed and supporting her being treated with respect can't but help. So I have enough respect left for my former church to be glad someone like LC, who doesn't brook that shit, is in it.

[ 12. November 2016, 06:08: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

But if one simply accepts this, it seems to me it's handing Trump and his ilk more ammunition for their tactic of division, and retreating still further into an echo chamber.

We can disagree about lots of things, but it seems so important to me to keep conversations going across seemingly unbridgeable divides. I think this is the real, and really countrer-cultural, challenge.

Well, that's a good point, and well worth considering. Perhaps later, when the wound is less raw.
I take your point. But I wouldn't slam any doors in your pain.

This may sound needlessly dystopian, but consider how in soviet Russia the authorities constantly played off the registered, party-line-toeing churches against the non-registered ones as a way of neutering Christian influence overall.

(I have a book called Irina which claims to be the semi-fictionalised story of a group of Russian believers who want to challenge the communist system. In it, registered and non-registered baptists, Orthodox, and pentecostals learn to work together to achieve this aim. Of course they also end up in jail, and this cements their ties still further - but that relies on there being at least some back channels in place from the start.)
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Kelly: I think I see your point, but Melania Trump is not a girl, nor was she a young woman when she married Donald. It's a complicated thing, trying to figure out to what extent any particular woman is a victim of or a perpetrator of the systems of sexism, because it's frequently both.

Hillary Rodham took her husband's name to help his political career - in doing so she was both victim and perpetrator. Michelle Obama gave up her job to be First Lady. I personally think the whole First Lady thing is bullshit and that the President's spouse should be allowed to keep their regular job if they have one. So I see her as a victim of sexism, but I also think every woman who knuckles under the pressure to be the ultimate corporate wife while she is First Lady is perpetuating a very public sexist role.

I also think slut-shaming isn't exactly what Twilight was doing. Slut-shaming is criticizing a woman for having too much sex with too many different people, not criticizing her for selling herself. I think it's fine for women to have lots of sex with lots of different people, but both Twilight and Lamb Chopped would disagree.

Whether it's okay for a woman to sell her body in pornography or prostitution is a very different thing. Traditionally it's held to be a bad thing, but I think the victim/perpetrator dichotomy applies, weighted differently in different circumstances. The woman who doesn't have other good options I see as more of a victim. The woman who could have done other things - she's more of a perpetrator of a sexist system.

[ 12. November 2016, 06:57: Message edited by: RuthW ]
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Kelly: I think I see your point, but Melania Trump is not a girl, nor was she a young woman when she married Donald. It's a complicated thing, trying to figure out to what extent any particular woman is a victim of or a perpetrator of the systems of sexism, because it's frequently both.

Hillary Rodham took her husband's name to help his political career - in doing so she was both victim and perpetrator. Michelle Obama gave up her job to be First Lady. I personally think the whole First Lady thing is bullshit and that the President's spouse should be allowed to keep their regular job if they have one. So I see her as a victim of sexism, but I also think every woman who knuckles under the pressure to be the ultimate corporate wife while she is First Lady is perpetuating a very public sexist role.( snip)

I also think slut-shaming isn't exactly what Twilight was doing. Slut-shaming is criticizing a woman for having too much sex with too many different people, not criticizing her for selling herself. I think it's fine for women to have lots of sex with lots of different people, but both Twilight and Lamb Chopped would disagree.

First of agll, yeah I know Melania is an adult, but I was assuming LC doesn't restrict her repulsion of calling women sluts to Melania, and I repeat, LCMS youngsters need to hear that that is not respectable.

Second-- precise definition of slut shaming aside, how is calling someone First Slut not misogynistic language ?
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
RuthW

A tangent. As a West Wing episode pointed out a dozen years ago, the real security nightmare is the abduction by terrorists of a member of the President's family. There are real additional security risks associated with a President's partner continuing a career if that career involves substantial daily and routine contact with the public.

This isn't an argument against your criticism of the ceremonial supportive role. Some Presidential partners can carry that off with ease and do a lot of good, others not so. But the choice to continue a career may be a lot more difficult than we think.
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
TFO 'appears to soften stance on range of pledges'.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
A Politician gets into power and isn't going to do the things they said they would in the Election campaign. Well knock me down with a feather [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Sorry, rolyn, this has caused a lot of fear, profound grief and even panic among some living in the USA, well-reasoned or not as these emotions may be. Some vulnerable (or perceiving themselves as vulnerable) people have to my knowledge committed suicide since the election.

Whether the fear is based on real events or on a feared, imagined potential outcome does not matter at this point.

Therefore, if the incumbent tones down at least some of his earlier statements, this may help some people perhaps to be slightly less fearful, and see what real change they can help with - which could of course be both with the new Prez and gov't, or in a clearly necessary (even grassroot) opposition.

Anything which somewhat softens the tone of the incumbent's campaign trail madness - which undoubtedly was there -, and its outlandish, even obscene propositions ought to be welcomed. The shock in America, and in parts of the world, has been too big to see any of the TFO's now apparently softening as 'normal', in my opinion.

It may be difficult to trust, but this here to me seems a (small) step in the right direction.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

You have used it to blast her on the Internet precisely because you believe a slut ought not occupy the position of president's spouse.

How precisely do you expect Melania Trump to avoid your scathing criticism? What actions must she take?

Or is the answer "none are possible," in which case you are shooting helpless fish in a barrel?

This plus Kelly's vow to pray for poor Melania, make me wonder where this holier than thou attitude was when you were both "blasting [Donald] on the internet." Where were your sad prayers then? How was he supposed to avoid your scathing criticism? Where was your new rule that says if he can't change his past then he's a helpless fish in a barrel?

Trump looks over at Melania at the polls and he's an abuser, her round shoulders are proof she's afraid of him. I looked over at my husband when we were at the polls the very same way. He is tall, like Melania, and his shoulders were rounded over the low table. My look said, "Are you ever going to be finished?" just like Trump's.

I can't believe the double standard here. Oh yes, she isn't running for President, she didn't grab anyone's crotch, etc. but they are both in the public eye, part of the top establishment, happy to live their lives in front of the media when it comes to GQ and Vogue interviews with flattering covers on the fronts. So why, after 137 pages of Trump criticism,is one word against Melania so cruel?

It simply is not misogyny every time a woman is criticized. Misogyny has to be much more generalized than saying "I don't like Kristen Stewart's acting." It has to be "Women shouldn't have serious roles." We don't have to admire every woman in the public eye. We don't have to like our boss just because she's a woman. Feminism isn't supposed to be like the sort of blind patriotism that carries signs saying,"My country right or wrong." If women have the right to make their own choices then those choices should be as subject to criticism as any man's. I thought we wanted equality, not coddling.

Blasting Donald while praying for Melania. Treating grown women like children who must be protected from imaginary abusers. Writing imaginary, sympathetic scenarios to explain the women's actions while imagining the very worst where the men are concerned -- that's making special rules for the weaker set. That's misogyny in disguise.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

You have used it to blast her on the Internet precisely because you believe a slut ought not occupy the position of president's spouse.

How precisely do you expect Melania Trump to avoid your scathing criticism? What actions must she take?

Or is the answer "none are possible," in which case you are shooting helpless fish in a barrel?

This plus Kelly's vow to pray for poor Melania, make me wonder where this holier than thou attitude was when you were both "blasting [Donald] on the internet." Where were your sad prayers then? How was he supposed to avoid your scathing criticism? Where was your new rule that says if he can't change his past then he's a helpless fish in a barrel?

Trump looks over at Melania at the polls and he's an abuser, her round shoulders are proof she's afraid of him. I looked over at my husband when we were at the polls the very same way. He is tall, like Melania, and his shoulders were rounded over the low table. My look said, "Are you ever going to be finished?" just like Trump's.

I can't believe the double standard here. Oh yes, she isn't running for President, she didn't grab anyone's crotch, etc. but they are both in the public eye, part of the top establishment, happy to live their lives in front of the media when it comes to GQ and Vogue interviews with flattering covers on the fronts. So why, after 137 pages of Trump criticism,is one word against Melania so cruel?

It simply is not misogyny every time a woman is criticized. Misogyny has to be much more generalized than saying "I don't like Kristen Stewart's acting." It has to be "Women shouldn't have serious roles." We don't have to admire every woman in the public eye. We don't have to like our boss just because she's a woman. Feminism isn't supposed to be like the sort of blind patriotism that carries signs saying,"My country right or wrong." If women have the right to make their own choices then those choices should be as subject to criticism as any man's. I thought we wanted equality, not coddling.

Blasting Donald while praying for Melania. Treating grown women like children who must be protected from imaginary abusers. Writing imaginary, sympathetic scenarios to explain the women's actions while imagining the very worst where the men are concerned -- that's making special rules for the weaker set. That's misogyny in disguise.

First of all, Twilight, it would help if you got straight who was saying what. I never accused you of misogyny, nor am I saying that we ought to have special rules for either sex. What I object to is publicly shaming someone who is in the public eye NOT by their own choice for actions/situations they cannot alter. I don't give a damn if it's a man or a woman this applies to.

You bring up Donald. Donald is in the public eye PRECISELY by his own choice, which gives the universe a right to criticize him. He has offered himself up for that purpose. Anyone running for the presidency has pasted a big "CRITICIZE ME" sign on his or her forehead. You never heard a word from me criticizing the (very criticizable) man BEFORE he ran for public office.

You may have noticed that I have not been similarly protective of Hillary Clinton, although I voted for her. That's because she, too, is in the public eye by her own choice. Male or female, if you choose to paint a bulls-eye on yourself, you need to deal with the resulting shots. Including the unfair ones. The way to do that is through vigorous argument, not silence.

Melania is in the public eye because her husband (NOT SHE) has gained public office. She has not taped a bulls-eye on herself--a helluva lot of other people have done so, and she has no realistic way to avoid it. She cannot, for example, resign. She therefore deserves protected status regarding her past from anyone to whom fair play is still a consideration. And I would be saying the same damn thing right here were Trump married to a man.

This is not about gender. This is about justice.

I will make one concession. If Melania or anyone similarly circumstanced is fool enough to CONTINUE behaving in an obviously criticizable manner, go ahead, shoot at her. Because stupidity is not a status protected by decency.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Ruth, I'm surprised at you. Anybody would think that my role on this thread was to defend Donald and attack Melania. I can find no other reason why you think my church membership is at issue.

If you must know, I voted for Hillary. So did a damn lot of other LCMS Christians I know.

And I'm not bloody dragging this thread into another round of Dead Horse issues.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Melania Trump was in the public eye before she married her husband. Donald Trump was a public figure when she married him. I do think slut and bimbo are misogynistic terms, but I also think there is nothing wrong with Twilight's overall judgement of Melania Trump's choices.

Any institution which does not treat women and gay people as whole and complete people made in the image of God is perpetuating sexism and homophobia. Churches such the LCMS, the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention, and many evangelical churches are a big part of the reason sexism and homophobia remain normal and acceptable in our society. They are holding us back, and for this I hold them as institutions on contempt. I have zero interest in a Dead Horses debate here or elsewhere, because there is nothing to debate. However individuals have voted, these institutions are supporting sexism and anti-gay bigotry. In the aftermath of this horrific election, they have a portion of guilt for their roles in making it okay for some people to see women and gay people as less than fully human.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
In the poverty-ridden artistic circles I move in the burning issue is health insurance. There is always of course the hope that Trump will not follow through on his promises, but the GOP has been planning to gut Obamacare for years now, so I think it is going to happen.

I am blogging about this issue today, and am collecting accounts of people who were saved by Obamacare, or who cannot now survive without it and the other safety nets. It may be useful someday, to have all these in one place.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Melania Trump was in the public eye before she married her husband. Donald Trump was a public figure when she married him. I do think slut and bimbo are misogynistic terms, but I also think there is nothing wrong with Twilight's overall judgement of Melania Trump's choices.

Any institution which does not treat women and gay people as whole and complete people made in the image of God is perpetuating sexism and homophobia. Churches such the LCMS, the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention, and many evangelical churches are a big part of the reason sexism and homophobia remain normal and acceptable in our society. They are holding us back, and for this I hold them as institutions on contempt. I have zero interest in a Dead Horses debate here or elsewhere, because there is nothing to debate. However individuals have voted, these institutions are supporting sexism and anti-gay bigotry. In the aftermath of this horrific election, they have a portion of guilt for their roles in making it okay for some people to see women and gay people as less than fully human.

Again, I don't understand how individuals within a sexist/ homophobic institution basically saying no to those things is anything but really good news. When I was a kid, both the ALC and the ELCA held the same basic views on women/ gays that the LCMS did, then one day someone simply declared it was ok to disagree, and ten years later they were ordaining women.

HRC pretty much owned the Catholic vote, if my info is right, and even though Pope Francis is kindly about it, everything you've said about the LCMS can be applied to policies he has verbally reinforced in the Roman Catholic Church. What should we do, toss out all those votes on the grounds of institutional hypocracy?
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In the poverty-ridden artistic circles I move in the burning issue is health insurance. There is always of course the hope that Trump will not follow through on his promises, but the GOP has been planning to gut Obamacare for years now, so I think it is going to happen.

I am blogging about this issue today, and am collecting accounts of people who were saved by Obamacare, or who cannot now survive without it and the other safety nets. It may be useful someday, to have all these in one place.

I've heard rumors that some where in Trump's sit down with Obama, Obama tried to talk him down off that ledge, and that Trump was holding off on changes to the ACA until further notice. A straw of hope to grasp.

In my personal life, I have noticed this is the dividing line between between " OMG please God let the electoral college turn on him! FML, it's all over!" Dems and "Be at peace and have faith" Dems, Although everyone is in favor of getting loud.
As a contract sub, I rely on the ACA. I am one of the working poor the Dems rail about. Here I am!

But I have had upper middle class, situationally well- appointed, white collar, 401K- bearing liberal Christian Dems say some pretty damn clueless things to me, and others in my position. There is a disconnect between the philosophical idea of the working poor, and a genuine understanding of what it is like to be working poor.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
RuthW

A tangent. As a West Wing episode pointed out a dozen years ago, the real security nightmare is the abduction by terrorists of a member of the President's family. There are real additional security risks associated with a President's partner continuing a career if that career involves substantial daily and routine contact with the public.

This isn't an argument against your criticism of the ceremonial supportive role. Some Presidential partners can carry that off with ease and do a lot of good, others not so. But the choice to continue a career may be a lot more difficult than we think.

I don't think I've seen that episode. But, of course, in The West Wing an abduction is the preferred scenario because it ratchets up dramatic tension and allows for the possibility of a happy ending. If one was a terrorist and wanting to make a dramatic point one could forego abducting the First Spouse and the complicated logistical arrangements that would and settle for something a little less complicated and a little more terminal. And if it's occurred to me, it's also occurred to The Secret Service and to the bad guys as well.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
At any rate, a First Spouse working at a "regular" job would be a security nightmare.
 
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
HRC pretty much owned the Catholic vote, if my info is right

Apparently not.
quote:
In the run-up to the election, only the IBD-TIPP poll consistently pointed to a Trump win among Catholics, as CRUX noted last week. Almost all the others suggested a significant margin of victory for Clinton.

Now that the voting is over, however, preliminary results indicate Trump decisively won a majority of those self-identifying as Catholics, by 52 to 45 percent.


 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ok, maybe just the Catholics I knew. California can be kind of a bubble, politically.
 
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :
 
Sure, Kelly. And, as with the population at large, many Trump voters amongst Catholics were probably shy of saying so out loud.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Good point. The "silent vote" was buzzed about pre election, but I guess the hope was "silent votes" for both candidates would cancel themselves out.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Lots of election demongraphics here, if you scroll down aways. Including the Catholic vote.

As mentioned in the other thread, the killer stat is that over 80% of white evangelicals voted for Donald Trump.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
My sis belongs to one of those huge con-evo megachurches, where they literally put little voting guides on the Bible Study tables during election time. Everyone in her family voted Democrat. These are folk who have voted Republican for years. Like I said, I'll take it.


Some blogger said somewhere that the failure of the lib/dems was to more actively take people's spiritual lives into account, to actually make some sort of active appeal to people from evangelical backgrounds. I think this goes hand in hand with what I said above about the social disconnect with the working poor.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Melania Trump was in the public eye before she married her husband. Donald Trump was a public figure when she married him. I do think slut and bimbo are misogynistic terms, but I also think there is nothing wrong with Twilight's overall judgement of Melania Trump's choices. ...

My hyuuuuuge problem with Melania Trump as First Lady is that this election sends a very clear message to girls and women: If you want to get to the White House, don't waste any time or energy getting a law degree and being an activist and running for office. That won't work, no matter how accomplished you are, and many people will hate you for it. Drop out of college, do some modeling and soft porn, and catch the eye of a megalomaniacal real estate heir instead.

And what about her recent, public anti-cyberbullying statement? Is she clueless? Ironic? Trying to communicate with the Cyberbully-in-Chief through the media? Or is she just tossing rocks from a hyuuuuuge glass tower?
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Y'know, I thought Trump would revert to type, and sure enough he did. He is, at his very core, a bullshitter and a confidence man, pure and simple. He promises everything and delivers nothing.

And his recent announcements that he would leave Obamacare alone are pure type.

The only thing to expect from him is never to expect delivery.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
And what about her recent, public anti-cyberbullying statement? Is she clueless? Ironic? Trying to communicate with the Cyberbully-in-Chief through the media? Or is she just tossing rocks from a hyuuuuuge glass tower?

The campaign wonks probably just told her to come out against cyberbullying in order to distract attention from her husband's own bullying, so she did.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
At any rate, a First Spouse working at a "regular" job would be a security nightmare.

I'm not so sure - after all, children of presidents attend normal(ish) schools alongside civilians without too much trouble. And setting up security in a single location (like an office) might be easier in some ways than doing the same in a multitude of different locations, as is currently required for a First Spouse with a busy travel schedule.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
There is also the point that other countries do it. Isn't there a Mr. Merkel, somewhere?
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
SPK wrote:

quote:
Y'know, I thought Trump would revert to type, and sure enough he did. He is, at his very core, a bullshitter and a confidence man, pure and simple. He promises everything and delivers nothing.

Yep. And I'm expecting him to have many other Road To Damscus conversions, under pressures from both the left, eg. Obamacare, and the right, eg. when the GOP corporate donors take him aside and say "Okay, Hair Boy, we don't care what the hell you got those lunkheads out in Michigan to believe, unless you wanna be back hosting Playboy videos in four years, NAFTA stays on the books."

[ 12. November 2016, 19:45: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Frankly, that's his attraction for me. He's a RINO (Republican in Name Only): the party elites hate him, he doesn't get along with the GOP's corporate donors, and he has at least as many problems relating to his own party as he does with the Democrats.

I predict he'll settle for a cap on Obamacare rate increases.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Again, I don't understand how individuals within a sexist/ homophobic institution basically saying no to those things is anything but really good news. When I was a kid, both the ALC and the ELCA held the same basic views on women/ gays that the LCMS did, then one day someone simply declared it was ok to disagree, and ten years later they were ordaining women.

It is good news. But the institutions go right on being sexist and homophobic. Maybe the LCMS will change, but it seems more likely to me that Lutherans who feel strongly about sexism and homophobia have by this point defected to other Lutheran churches. The Catholic Church is clearly not going to change. So while I'm very glad for every vote against sexism and homophobia in the political realm, the fact remains that people's participation in and support for sexist and homophobic institutions also has an effect on our society.

In the wake of this election, with the hate crimes piling up every hour, I think people should ask themselves what they can do to ameliorate its effects and also make the outcome different next time. Churches that say women can't lead need to be called out for their bullshit. Every time I heard people wonder if the country was ready for a woman to be president, it reminded me of being on the rector search committee and listening to people wonder if our church was ready for a woman to be rector. When churches don't view women as able to lead them, it matters. It's bullshit, and it has real consequences. This was a close election, and just a few more people being comfortable with a female president could have put Clinton into office.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Frankly, that's his attraction for me. He's a RINO (Republican in Name Only): the party elites hate him, he doesn't get along with the GOP's corporate donors, and he has at least as many problems relating to his own party as he does with the Democrats.

I predict he'll settle for a cap on Obamacare rate increases.

My bet right now is that the worst things he will do(from a progressive perspective) are things that any Republican POTUS would have done. And, to the extent that he deviates to the left on some things(eg. the possible Obamacare turnaround), it'll be because of his idiosyncratic, RINO tendencies which you reference.

The big question-mark is foreign-policy, where, if Trump follows his campaign rhetoric, we should be seeing a dovish approach to Russia, fewer middle-east interventions, and the closing of overseas military bases. But I think that's ONE issue where he is likely to be over-ruled by Republican hawks.

[ 12. November 2016, 20:41: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There is also the point that other countries do it. Isn't there a Mr. Merkel, somewhere?

Quite so - that Mrs Blair managed to keep raking in the pennies as a lawyer, although I was quick to point out to several people on several occasions that she was not the "First Lady" - there's only one "First Lady" in the UK and she's the one in the sparkly hat on the big gold chair!

[I also once had a conversation with a pupil who thought that the wife of the Prime Minister and First Lord of the Treasury ought not to undertake demeaning work "like working at Costa or something."
"No, dear," I assured her, "Mrs Blair is a barrister. That's not the same as a barista."
"Ohhhh..."]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
My bet right now is that the worst things he will do(from a progressive perspective) are things that any Republican POTUS would have done.

It's not just him. It's the neonazis and other hategemongers he has unleashed, who are spreading fear and injuries (no deaths we know of yet, although a shooting in Portland looks suspicious) across the country.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
My bet right now is that the worst things he will do(from a progressive perspective) are things that any Republican POTUS would have done.

It's not just him. It's the neonazis and other hategemongers he has unleashed, who are spreading fear and injuries (no deaths we know of yet, although a shooting in Portland looks suspicious) across the country.
Indeed. But I was talking specifically about the policies that he will actually pursue in governing.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Maybe the LCMS will change, but it seems more likely to me that Lutherans who feel strongly about sexism and homophobia have by this point defected to other Lutheran churches.

You know, thanks for fucking nothing. What am I and those like me, chopped liver?

Talk about the LCMS when you actually know something about us.
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I've heard rumors that some where in Trump's sit down with Obama, Obama tried to talk him down off that ledge, and that Trump was holding off on changes to the ACA until further notice. A straw of hope to grasp.

I too was heartened to hear this development, and that a little sit-down-and-talk with Obama had let him see a glimmer of light. But then that was all blown apart when I remembered that Obama won't have his ear for much longer. if the President Elect is this easily swayed, then woe betide us when the likes of Newt Grinch and Gooliani are the ones barking their view of the world into T's confused little head.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
SPK--

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Frankly, that's his attraction for me. He's a RINO (Republican in Name Only): the party elites hate him, he doesn't get along with the GOP's corporate donors, and he has at least as many problems relating to his own party as he does with the Democrats.

I predict he'll settle for a cap on Obamacare rate increases.

Um...but is Trump emotionally/mentally stable?
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
My former church is full of women who have chosen to keep ties, stay in communion with their church family, and make a loud noise in Bible study. Gay women, feminist- leaning women, mothers of girls who have had abortions. Just because I ultimately decided not to inflict my contrary ideas on my elders, does not mean I don't respect those women's choice to stay with the people they have gotten to know and have formed attachments to. ( and it just happens to be mostly women, in my former church's case).

The least productive thing I can imagIne myself doing, if I want to encourage such women to speak up about the dignity of women, is to say their decision to do so means nothing because of where they take the Sacrament. I wouldn't say that to a Catholic woman, or an Orthodox woman, or an LCMS woman.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I didn't say it means nothing. I said they are participating in and supporting sexist and homophobic institutions. It's not all they're doing, but it's important. You and Lamb Chopped both have additional values that come into play for you. I don't share them.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Fair enough. Out of curiosity, what values do you mean?
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Um...but is Trump emotionally/mentally stable?

The general description is that he is personality disordered. Narcissist who is the only person who matters, everyone else is an object to be manipulated or used. People are disposable like tissues or plastic bags. None of which explains his totally culpable behaviour. The sort who has left by age 70, probably thousands of casualities in his wake.

William Shakespeare as I misuse him:
quote:
Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown. in his simple show he harbours Treason...the welfare of us all, hangs on the cutting short that fraudfull man.
(Henry IV Part II)
No disorder spares the guilty from their execution.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
The value placed on an individual's attachments to other people and to their church, because to me in the case of homophobia they are sacrificing others' rights to maintain relationships in order to maintain their own, and in the case of sexism they are carving out spaces and making compromises that work for them that might make it possible for them to work from within but that also mean the sexism continues. If women all just walked out of all the voluntary associations where they are subject to sexism, we'd get change a lot quicker. The seemingly endless temporizing and compromising makes me crazy and angry.

I left a sexist, homophobic church. My parents were really not happy about it. But my self-respect mattered more to me than their approval. One minister there preached on Mother's Day about the evils of women working outside the home. My mom thought it was awful, but she stayed. The female church secretary employed there stayed. No one said anything to this jackass. They all just took it, and over 30 years later, they still don't have any female leadership, even on the governing board.

And I am banging on about this on this thread because after this election, I think we must be umcompromising. I am not going to smile to make people like me. I don't give a shit if people like me when respect as a human being is the real issue. We would despise a church that tolerated racism to the extent that some churches tolerate and even promote sexism and homophobia.

You wouldn't ask a woman to leave her church because it's sexist. I would.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I see my self as encouraging every woman to do the best she can to support other women wherever she is, without requiring her to be where I am at. Meeting people where they are rather than where you want them to be. Bridge building. Network building. Finding common ground and going from there.

If you are a wired differently, so be it, but I'd like to believe I am wired the way I am for a reason.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Don't miss this!!!

"Saturday Night Live" did something truly beautiful tonight. An absolutely perfect tribute to Hillary, to hope, and to someone who died this week.(YouTube) It is one of the best things I've ever seen, anywhere.

The host was comedian David Chappelle, who did a mostly-serious opening monologue about the election. It's longer than usual. There's a link in the sidebar of the page above.

I'm only about 20 min. into the show, and the next sketch is election-related, too. Maybe they all will be.

But please, please watch that first video. It's beautiful.
 
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I see my self as encouraging every woman to do the best she can to support other women wherever she is, without requiring her to be where I am at. Meeting people where they are rather than where you want them to be. Bridge building. Network building. Finding common ground and going from there.

A year ago, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Now I'm not certain. I think both the Brexit vote and the Trump election have demonstrated that bridge building and finding common ground is currently failing on an epic scale. That we are in a society where demagoguery wins in the face of gentle reason. And that scares me silly. I don't know what the answer to it is, but it seems clear to me at the moment that rationalising, bridge building and networking with a large number of people simply doesn't work.

[ 13. November 2016, 07:24: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
That was outstanding. Kate McKinnon is a real trooper; you could tell she was fighting back tears. And not a bad voice at all.

Excellent choice for a cold open. It kind of reminded me of the opening for the 2001 Independant Spirit awards, which was Elvis Costello quietly stepping to the mic with an acoustic guitar and, without fanfare, beginning "What's So Funny 'Bout Peace, Love, and Understanding?"

Remembering that-- and the crowd response-- I kind of wished team SNL had mic'ed the audience-- I'm sure people were singing along.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I see my self as encouraging every woman to do the best she can to support other women wherever she is, without requiring her to be where I am at. Meeting people where they are rather than where you want them to be. Bridge building. Network building. Finding common ground and going from there.

A year ago, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Now I'm not certain. I think both the Brexit vote and the Trump election have demonstrated that bridge building and finding common ground is currently failing on an epic scale. That we are in a society where demagoguery wins in the face of gentle reason. And that scares me silly. I don't know what the answer to it is, but it seems clear to me at the moment that rationalising, bridge building and networking with a large number of people simply doesn't work.
It works at a glacial pace, is the problem. And in small batches. So, that approach is frustrating to people who are wanting quick and wide sweeping.

I said in a women's study class once that both approaches really need to be happening simultaneously-- the uncompromising juggernaut of change and the close up, patient growing. Of course people gifted with juggernaut skills are going to be called the heroes, but that's not looking at the big picture, IMO. ( The teacher agreed with me, BTW-- even cited a couple suffragettes to back it up.)

One of the gifts God has kind of thrust on me, via my fantastic family dynamics, is the gift of being able to shut up, listen, and consider where someone is coming from. That giftbis important. I am not Gloria Steinham. I don't have to be Gloria Steinham. Fuck, I think even Gloria Steinham would tell me that I don't have to be Gloria Steinham. And I can be disappointed at a woman capitalizing on her own objectification without calling anyone a slut, and I can support another woman's attempts to promote the dignity of other women without asking her to answer for her entire church body.

[ 13. November 2016, 07:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
I hope this BBC Radio 4 programme may provide some insights into the hearts and minds of some Americans just after the election:

'Don't Log Off, Mr President' (30 mins; Podcast available):
quote:
Alan Dein talks to his Facebook friends across America about the election of Donald Trump. Just hours after the result, Trump and Clinton supporters alike talk passionately about why they voted the way they did - and share their hopes and fears about the future of the United States. Working through the night, Alan tries to understand what the election has revealed about modern America - from California to Tennessee.
I found this very moving and helpful.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Don't miss this!!!

"Saturday Night Live" did something truly beautiful tonight. An absolutely perfect tribute to Hillary, to hope, and to someone who died this week.(YouTube) It is one of the best things I've ever seen, anywhere.

But please, please watch that first video. It's beautiful.

It's my Sunday morning ritual to watch the SNL clips and I wondered what they could possibly find funny in all this. I'm so glad they didn't try, but instead did that beautiful tribute to Leonard Cohen and Hillary's run for president. Kate McKinnon is a treasure.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

I have plenty of great anecdotes about human beings. Shall we swap a few?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

I have plenty of great anecdotes about human beings. Shall we swap a few?
Well, if you really want to miss my point, sure.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I was going to invite people to crash here at my house, when the March on Washington takes place on Jan. 21. But I learn that very many cities (CHicago, Boston) are doing similar marches that weekend. So maybe you don't have to travel, you can march near your home!
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, if you really want to miss my point, sure.

Maybe if you had some evidence I wouldn't miss your point.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Many of the Japanese "comfort women," who had been forced into prostitution with the military, committed suicide afterward because they could not live with the shame they felt. They didn't learn to feel that shame from Christians.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, if you really want to miss my point, sure.

Maybe if you had some evidence I wouldn't miss your point.
It would be a heck of a derail. I'm surprised that anyone would dispute that misogyny has been a core theme in Christianity. I will think about a new thread.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
It's a core theme of humanity. Yorkshire pudding goes with beef but not sushi or fruit salad. Misogyny goes with Christianity, but also Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Labour party, video gaming and fashion.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It's a core theme of humanity. Yorkshire pudding goes with beef but not sushi or fruit salad. Misogyny goes with Christianity, but also Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Labour party, video gaming and fashion.

I don't see how that contradicts what I am saying. But this is surely well o/t.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
We used to have Yorkshire pudding with raspberry vinegar as a starter, allegedly to fill you up.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I think you are both wrong. Patriarchy was the old social model, within which you could find both kindness and misogyny, sometimes mixed up. Patriarchy was an unfair social model, since the stereotypes it implied simply didn't recognise human diversity, in terms of character, gifts and talents.

But some people just don't want to let go. Included in 'some people' are social conservatives who are not misogynists, and some misogynists who are just that.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I see my self as encouraging every woman to do the best she can to support other women wherever she is, without requiring her to be where I am at. Meeting people where they are rather than where you want them to be. Bridge building. Network building. Finding common ground and going from there.

If you are a wired differently, so be it, but I'd like to believe I am wired the way I am for a reason.

I'm sure you are! And so am I.

I don't like having to compromise. I know a certain amount of compromise is necessary, given the all too apparent reality of how many different views people have in this country. But I keep thinking about how Obama spent so much of his first term trying to compromise with Republicans in Congress who refused to budge an inch. I thought then, and I think now, that it was a huge mistake for him to spend more than a few months trying to compromise with them. After 3-6 months of not getting anywhere, he should have said "fuck it" and shoved the Democratic legislative plan down their throats while the Democrats held both houses of Congress and that was still possible. He gave and gave and gave and got nothing in return.

And while compromise is necessary and sometimes it's the only kind thing to do, sometimes it's simply a betrayal of the things I believe in and of the people who are going to be hurt by compromise.

Trump's planning to deport 2-3 million people, according to excerpts from his 60 Minutes interview already released. People at my church have worked very hard at settling some gay and lesbian refugees from Uganda, people who are legally in the US because their lives were in danger in Uganda because of their sexual orientation. They are now trying to change their African accents to African American accents so they will sound like they were born here, because they are terrified of what will happen next.

None of this puts me in a compromising frame of mind.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
The appointmen of Priebus as Chief of Staff wasn't much of a surprise, might even be seen as quite smart, but the appointment of 'Breitbart' Bannon as Chief Strategist seems to me to have 'look out!' written all over it. Anyone who thinks that campaign rhetoric was just that may be in for a shock.

Rampant Rudi as Attorney General now looks very much on the cards.

Think I'm with RuthW. Compromise doesn't look as though it's going to cut it. Liberal attitudes and reforms are in the cross hairs. And Gingrich spoke favourably during the campaign about the need for some latter day version of the House UnAmerican Activities Committee. The 'hidden enemy' may also be in the cross hairs.

I really hope I'm wrong.

[ 14. November 2016, 03:07: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Stephen Bannon as W.H. strategist? (WaPo link) Can we stop pretending now (he said to America as a whole) that this is going to be business as usual?
 
Posted by Joesaphat (# 18493) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Stephen Bannon as W.H. strategist? (WaPo link) Can we stop pretending now (he said to America as a whole) that this is going to be business as usual?

Yes, we must, Mouse. It's Dr Goebbels all over again. How to fight the disinformation in our days, though? It's happening everywhere: Turkey, Hungary, UK, US, Russia... look at what's left of the Israeli left as well. I'm the son of communist immigrants, Jewish enough to be rounded up by the morons, gay, and a foreigner myself, technically and yes, Latino, though not Mexican or in the US.

I am not usually into competitive victimhood but I'm getting scared, and I'm getting scared of people who keep telling me that I should not get scared, really, it's just a working class political convulsion. Steven Bannon has been spouting poison for decades now. The Le Pen daughter has just accepted his invite to become the French voice of his trolling hub... This is a bit more than mere protest voting across the globe.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Has America "fallen"?
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Godwin's Law looms, almost inevitability, over the aftermath discussions! But who can blame us? 'Breibart' Brannon's appointment in that role is an act of aggression.

I wonder what effect it might have on some fairly jittery stock markets? Never mind the already rattled Washington circles.

I suppose the 'madman' theory may be in play again. But I doubt it. This looks for real. As mousethief says.
 
Posted by Joesaphat (# 18493) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Godwin's Law looms, almost inevitability, over the aftermath discussions! But who can blame us? 'Breibart' Brannon's appointment in that role is an act of aggression.

I wonder what effect it might have on some fairly jittery stock markets? Never mind the already rattled Washington circles.

I suppose the 'madman' theory may be in play again. But I doubt it. This looks for real. As mousethief says.

Screw Godwin, when it walks like a Fascist, quacks like a Fascist, lies, publishes and trolls like a fascist, by G-d, it is a fascist.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
np--

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Um...but is Trump emotionally/mentally stable?

The general description is that he is personality disordered. Narcissist who is the only person who matters, everyone else is an object to be manipulated or used. People are disposable like tissues or plastic bags.
Thanks for the info. [Smile]

Actually, I'm hoping SPK will respond because s/he seems very much in favor of Trump, and I wondered if SPK perceived the imbalance that many of the rest of us see.

If someone doesn't perceive the imbalance, or thinks it's more or less election performance art (something I heard on the radio), then supporting Trump is a little more understandable.

FWIW.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Ruth--

Re Obama and not compromising:

What, please, do you think he could have done differently? He has only so much direct, executive power. And IIRC the Democrats weren't always happy with him, so he didn't have partnership there, either.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
The view from 'Airstrip One' will not be of much comfort to you, Golden Key.

Seriously, we're not yet at the formation of Neofascist International Inc. but I can well understand the nervousness.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ruth--

Re Obama and not compromising:

What, please, do you think he could have done differently? He has only so much direct, executive power. And IIRC the Democrats weren't always happy with him, so he didn't have partnership there, either.

I was referring to the first half of his first term, particularly his efforts to get Republicans on board to vote for the Affordable Care Act. He put forward a proposal based on ideas from the conservative Heritage Foundation, single-payer healthcare was never really even on the table, the bipartisan Senate Finance Committee went round and round and round figuring the damn bill out, and in the end not one single Republican voted for it, including the Republicans who had helped write it in the Senate Finance Committee. He started with a willingness to compromise without recognizing that he was dealing with people who had no intention of working with him, and thus gave up valuable ground.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Barnabas--

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The view from 'Airstrip One' will not be of much comfort to you, Golden Key.

???
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Ruth--

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
He started with a willingness to compromise without recognizing that he was dealing with people who had no intention of working with him, and thus gave up valuable ground.

Hmmmm...I would've thought that attempting compromise makes sense, if no one will work with you.

One of the criticisms of Pres. Jimmy Carter was that he didn't compromise, didn't build up the relationships that would help him develop compromises. He said later that he'd taken seriously the "no more gov't as usual!" message from voters, and tried to do things differently. IIRC, he recognized that as a mistake.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Barnabas--

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The view from 'Airstrip One' will not be of much comfort to you, Golden Key.

???
Airstrip One is the name of the UK in 1984. Its name presumably indicates its meagre significance in relation to the rest of Oceania(aka the American Empire).
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ruth--

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
He started with a willingness to compromise without recognizing that he was dealing with people who had no intention of working with him, and thus gave up valuable ground.

Hmmmm...I would've thought that attempting compromise makes sense, if no one will work with you.
You can't compromise with someone who won't compromise in return.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Stetson--

Ah, thanks! For a different take on that kind of thing, read Daphne du Maurier's "Rule, Britannia".

I suspect you'll like it.
[Snigger]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Thanks Stetson. Despite confident diplomatic noises in the UK re the Trump Presidency I think 'Airstrip One' might turn out to be more realistic. A different kind of 'special relationship', based on 'we'll get on fine provided you agree wholeheartedly with all our new moves'.

[ 14. November 2016, 06:29: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Stetson--

Ah, thanks! For a different take on that kind of thing, read Daphne du Maurier's "Rule, Britannia".

I suspect you'll like it.
[Snigger]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
(This could really go on any of the election threads, but figured this is probably the best.)

Re "what now", coping, understanding the other side (whichever it is), etc.:

Yes! magazine has several relevant articles.

From their "About" section:

quote:
YES! Magazine reframes the biggest problems of our time in terms of their solutions. Online and in print, we outline a path forward with in-depth analysis, tools for citizen engagement, and stories about real people working for a better world.


Powerful Ideas, Practical Actions

Today’s world is not the one we want—climate change, financial collapse, poverty, and war leave many feeling overwhelmed and hopeless.

YES! Magazine empowers people with the vision and tools to create a healthy planet and vibrant communities. We do this by:

--Reframing issues and outlining a path forward;
--Giving a voice to the people who are making change;
--Offering resources to use and pass along.

YES! Magazine is printed on 100% post-consumer waste, chlorine-free paper. We reach more than 150,000 readers quarterly. More than 140,000 people visit our website each month, where we post new stories every day.


IME, it's a really good magazine--just not terribly well known. Worth a read.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
There is a petition circulating to abolish the electoral college, so that the candidate with the most votes can be the winner. I imagine there would be massive opposition to the idea now, and any attempt by the electoral college to change the result now would likely lead to civil war of the most uncivil kind. At least there are a few people for whom hope didn't die last week.
 
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
Really don't think that petition will come to anything. If you have objections to the methodology of an election, they need to clearly articulated before the result is announced.

Contesting the electoral college system now is nothing more than l'esprit d'escalier.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Really don't think that petition will come to anything. If you have objections to the methodology of an election, they need to clearly articulated before the result is announced.

Contesting the electoral college system now is nothing more than l'esprit d'escalier.

To be fair, their website does say, "We need to get this done so that the winner of the 2020 election actually reflects the will of the people", so I think they understand that the current election is a lost cause.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I too believe that nothing can be done about the Electoral College. Recall that a constitutional change calls for passage by both houses of Congress, and it is Democratic candidates who always win the popular vote. Can we imagine Republican candidates giving up their toehold? Nah.

And then two-thirds of the states must ratify the change. The EC weights in favor of smaller states. Can you envision Rhode Island, or Wyoming, voting to strip themselves of their slice of power? Impossible.
 
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
To be fair, their website does say, "We need to get this done so that the winner of the 2020 election actually reflects the will of the people", so I think they understand that the current election is a lost cause.

Serves me right for not reading the link. [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Are we going to follow the trump presidency on this thread or should there be a new one?

Anyway. Yesterday, I heard on BBC World news that many experts believe Trump's win owes a lot to right wing online "news" sites, like Breitbart. I had never heard of it, but I gather it's quite popular with white nationalists. Today, I read that Trump has given Steve Bannon, who once headed Breitbart, a job as Chief Strategist. This is a terrible sign. Just when I was hoping Trump only used those types to get elected and would distance himself from them now.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Trump likes people who like Trump. That is all you need to understand.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
np--

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Um...but is Trump emotionally/mentally stable?

The general description is that he is personality disordered. Narcissist who is the only person who matters, everyone else is an object to be manipulated or used. People are disposable like tissues or plastic bags.
Thanks for the info. [Smile]

Actually, I'm hoping SPK will respond because s/he seems very much in favor of Trump, and I wondered if SPK perceived the imbalance that many of the rest of us see.

If someone doesn't perceive the imbalance, or thinks it's more or less election performance art (something I heard on the radio), then supporting Trump is a little more understandable.

FWIW.

Whoever said I was in favour of Trump?!?
[Mad]

I am a Canadian New Democrat, I am so far to the left that I am on another planet.

Yes, the man is imbalanced. I would not say in a clinical sense, but he clearly has issues of a literary hubris nature. His character is deeply flawed, to the point where I would say he has a spot on his soul. But what man's soul is pure when your career was in New York real estate development?

But I won't demonize him to death when his compromise could save millions of people's medical bills.

Besides, I refuse to feed the troll. He is a wind-up merchant and a bullshitter. Politics abounds with these people. But it was said to me that in Canada, the Maritimes expected their politicians to be over-the-top and not completely serious in their promises, while central and western Canadians take every word a politician says literally as either a certain promise or an outright lie.

A little perspective goes a long way.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Are we going to follow the trump presidency on this thread or should there be a new one?

My gut feel is that someone may want to start a long running Hell thread (a kind of "Fred-Phelps-type" watch), but if anyone wants to start a Trump Presidency thread in Purgatory, rather than just continue to rap here, then Inauguration Day might be a good time.

We'd then close this one. But as always, you're all free to start any thread on anything, provided it doesn't lead to duplicate discussions.

How does that sound?

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
SPK wrote:

quote:
Whoever said I was in favour of Trump?!?
[Mad]

Well, you did say earlier something like "One of the attractions that Trump has for me is...". Someone who doesn't know you might be liable to misunderstand that.

Overall, though, I'm inclined to agree with you. As I said, I think the main problem with Trump will turn out to be simply that he is a Republican, and a particularly dupable one at that, vulnerable to the manipulations of his wilier cohorts in the congress and party establishment. Basically, a Ronald Reagan for the generation raised on shock-radio, instead of the generation raised on Leave It To Beaver.

And, since we've gotten onto the subject of dark souls, anyone care to guess who the most high-profile Canadian cheerleader for the Trump-backed Keystone pipeline has been? Yep, it's Justin Trudeau, positioned well to the right of Hollywood liberals and even US Democrats on pipeline issues. I'm sure he still prefers the photo-ops with Barack, but when it comes to business, well, he knows who's buttering his bread.

[ 14. November 2016, 22:28: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
It's all fine with me, I just didn't want to be bringing new stuff to this thread if it was over. Thanks, Barnabas.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Trump calls Alex Jones again, vows to re-appear on show

Pond clarification...

This would be the equivalent of Teresa May calling up David Icke to thank him for his support and offering to be interviewed on the show(again).

As I said above, I think Trump will soon-enough end up as just a clueless dupe of the Republican establishment. But still, those guys must be having a bit of a time figuring out just how they're gonna bring the Donald over to the side of(relative) sanity.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Barnabas--

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think you are both wrong. Patriarchy was the old social model, within which you could find both kindness and misogyny, sometimes mixed up. Patriarchy was an unfair social model, since the stereotypes it implied simply didn't recognise human diversity, in terms
of character, gifts and talents.

(Emphasis mine.)

"Was"? "Implied"? Seriously???
[Mad]
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ruth--

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
He started with a willingness to compromise without recognizing that he was dealing with people who had no intention of working with him, and thus gave up valuable ground.

Hmmmm...I would've thought that attempting compromise makes sense, if no one will work with you.
You can't compromise with someone who won't compromise in return.
It depends if you are talking about compromising with politicians and their policies or compromising with the otherwise conservative Catholic woman down the street who voted blue and has to teach her three boys values to counteract every thing they have heard for the last five months.

While this has drifted away from the comments I made about using misogynistic language to punish women in their husband's stead, I thought I was making it clear I was talking about how we treat individuals with whom we already know we have the common ground of resisting Trump.

I can't believe it would help anything to tell the woman above that she is letting down the team by staying in a sexist institution, or that if she had a problem with the Phrase "First Slut" she isn't really committed. We've had almost a year of every kind of hateful demeaning language thrown at women you can think of; whatever way I am going to fight, it will be in a way that respects the women I am fighting with. They have had enough.

One of the things that felt good to be a follower of Hillary is that women of all kinds of backgrounds seemed united under her banner, or at least contra-Trump, at least in the very diverse area in which I live. The natural thing to me would be to try to think of ways to keep that going. To build on what united us in the first place. To actually find out what that was.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

I can't believe it would help anything to tell the woman above that she is letting down the team by staying in a sexist institution, or that if she had a problem with the Phrase "First Slut" she isn't really committed. We've had almost a year of every kind of hateful demeaning language thrown at women you can think of; whatever way I am going to fight, it will be in a way that respects the women I am fighting with. They have had enough.

This would be wonderful. To take my own case, I've had I don't know how many years of having crap thrown at me from both sides. The Ship used to be a place where I could catch a breath once in a while, but for some time the pressure has been on to conform entirely to one or the other side. I suspect this is why many of our beloved former Shipmates have gone MIA.

You just get tired. Way, way tired.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
The constant thing about politics is that successful politicians create coalitions. You get group A who are concerned about one thing, group B who are concerned about another and so on and so forth and this coalition carries you over the line. These coalitions are invariably unstable and gradually bits fall away until the other lot win. So the task for any defeated political party is to put together a new coalition and the way to do that is to force apart the coalition currently in power.

So Kelly is quite correct not to tell her Catholic friend that she is propping up a sexist institution. That helps precisely no-one. As far as the electorate is concerned it must be remembered that one catches more flies with honey, than with vinegar.

As far as the Senate and the House are concerned, there are two words that the Democratic leadership should have woven into samplers and hung over their beds. Scorched Earth.

When Obama was elected the Republicans announced that their aim was to make him a one term President. The Democrats should return the compliments with knobs on. It was in the interests of democracy that Hilary should concede graciously and Obama should be gracious about the transition. Everyone else should take heed of the good advice of Crowley to Aziriphale in 'Good Omens'; "You're there to thwart the wiles of the devil. You see a wile, you thwart, correct?" The object of the exercise is to break apart Trump's coalition and to force him to choose between the various incompatible goals he has set forth. At some point, some talking head is going to tell the Democrats to be statesmanlike and bipartisan. The Democrats should tell him or her to go and get fucked. At some point a Democratic Senator or Congressman is going to express similar sentences and it should be made clear to them, that this is not how we do things any more. No surrender, no retreat, no compromises.

The electorate were played. The politicians were not. Temper your responses accordingly.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I understand the reasoning, Callan, but in my naivete I hope the primary goal would remain doing what is best for the nation and the world, even over and above thwarting Trump. I grant you, the two goals may run in tandem.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
I would have thought that the national interest was best served by not having a Russian Asset in the White House. Everything else is a matter of detail.

I don't wish to sound alarmist - bugger that, I wish to sound extremely alarmist. I honestly think that the survival of The West as we have known it since World War II is at stake. Read this. I have a horrible feeling that it may well be too late. But as a wise friend once said to me, in admittedly less geopolitically significant circumstances, if we fight we could lose. If we don't fight we'll definitely lose.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I didn't vote for the guy, and we have the option of impeachment. I don't want to destroy more of the country's mental infrastructure than necessary in the process of protecting it.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
If I knew what you meant by 'mental infrastructure' I could either agree or disagree with you. I'm not trying to be facetious, just asking for a clarification.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I mean that if we take illegitimate means to get rid of him, either in the sheerly illegal sense or (more likely) in the "let's change our whole history of how we deal with election results" sense, we will probably end up doing more harm in the long run than if we used traditional means of bridling Trump.

For example, the folks who want to abolish the electoral college. A time of crisis is generally not the best time to make new experiments. It also leads people to consider other aspects of government equally changeable, which is a problem if you want a quiet life and not 15 constitutions in a hundred years.

I'm not against change of any sort. I'm just wary of taking extreme measures now under these circumstances. Better to see if the usual measures (congressional gridlock, protests, Supreme Court checks, etc.) can do the job.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Ah, in which case I agree completely. The rule of law is one of the things we are fighting for.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Interesting insight reported in the Economist editorial this week:

Trump's supporters took him seriously but not literally;

Trump's opponents took him literally but not seriously.
 
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Boy is that true! I think it's still hard to tell which statements we should be taking literally.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I doubt if he himself could tell you. The Orange One said anything he needed to, to get the approbation of his audience. It changed, at need, daily if necessary. The idea that people should remember from day to day, or expect him to stand upon a solid principle, startled and enraged him -- even having his statements on videotape had no impact. The only core he has is himself, his own good.

And what this means is that the people who do have a solid principle can sneak in and drive their agenda through. As long as your plan doesn't impact the Donald's bottom line or ego, you're good to go.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Though the problem is watching out for that ego. It could easily become a question of who can flatter him the most.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I think it's still hard to tell which statements we should be taking literally.

People have motives to make ourselves out to be better people than we are. We don't have motives to make ourselves out to be worse people than we are.

Nobody who isn't racist is going to pretend to be racist; nobody who isn't sexist is going to pretend to be sexist; nobody who respects liberal democracy and the rule of law is going to pretend not to respect liberal democracy and the rule of law.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:

Nobody who isn't racist is going to pretend to be racist; nobody who isn't sexist is going to pretend to be sexist; nobody who respects liberal democracy and the rule of law is going to pretend not to respect liberal democracy and the rule of law. [/QB]

Umm... unless it is your goal to get those racists, sexists and pocket fascists to vote for you. And of course if you have no morals. Then you say what you need to say, to get them to do what you want. Afterwards, you may or may not throw them over the side. Depending upon your own needs and convenience.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
What Brenda said! Politicians do and say all sorts of things to get elected. You have to wait and see what they actually do in office. Then there are the questions of what deals they've made, who they owe, what their party demands, what their constituents want, and what the politicians actually believe. I think sometimes all of that gets so mixed up that they don't know what's real.

ETA: And, in everyday life, people often act like the bad thing they're not, or allow others to believe that, so they can get through the moment with the people they're around. Ever laugh at a prejudiced joke? Stayed silent? I have.

[ 15. November 2016, 23:08: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I do believe that our current president-elect has them all beat hollow, for lying without fear or memory. Even when it's on videotape, he'll change. I wonder if anyone will ever believe a politician ever again.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:

Nobody who isn't racist is going to pretend to be racist; nobody who isn't sexist is going to pretend to be sexist; nobody who respects liberal democracy and the rule of law is going to pretend not to respect liberal democracy and the rule of law.

Umm... unless it is your goal to get those racists, sexists and pocket fascists to vote for you. And of course if you have no morals. Then you say what you need to say, to get them to do what you want. Afterwards, you may or may not throw them over the side. Depending upon your own needs and convenience. [/QB]
I agree. However... if you are willing to say anything to pander to racists & sexists, you're saying racism and sexism aren't very much of a concern for you-- certainly far less than getting elected. And yes, politicians will say/do a lot of disreputable things to get elected. But precisely how far they will go to be elected says a lot. If you're willing to pander to racists to get elected, I say that in and of itself makes you a racist, simply because you're demonstrating that pandering to racists is less significant to you than getting elected. Even if "some of your best friends are black".
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
There are people like this. Who, after an comments that I am sure you will agree are inarguably racist, can still plead: "I am truly sorry for any hard feeling this may have caused! Those who know me know that I'm not of any way racist!"
In other words, their definition of the word is quite different. Perhaps they think of racism solely as lynching black people, or beating them up in the street, and everything that doesn't involve bloodshed doesn't count.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
So the task for any defeated political party is to put together a new coalition and the way to do that is to force apart the coalition currently in power.

So Kelly is quite correct not to tell her Catholic friend that she is propping up a sexist institution. That helps precisely no-one. As far as the electorate is concerned it must be remembered that one catches more flies with honey, than with vinegar.

As a practical matter I think the Catholic Church can be an important part of this coalition. The US Conference of Catholic Bishops has just elected Archbishop Gomez of Los Angeles, a Mexican American immigrant, to be their next VP, and that makes him likely to be their president three years later. I don't imagine he was chosen simply because he's Mexican American, but that does send a message, and he's going to defend immigrants as best he can.

At the same time, though, replace the word "sexist" with "racist" in your statement above and tell me how it would sit with you to consider being in a coalition with an institution you considered racist. Then think about looking a black or brown person in the eye and telling them they needed to just be cool with a racist institution.

I'm going to tolerate being in a coalition with a sexist institution. It's just reality, and I'll have to live with it for the time being. But there is no way on earth I will back down from my position about the sexism in some of the groups I'll be making common cause with over the next few years. I'll do my best not to choke on the irony that sexism is a primary reason we are facing at least four years of shameless kleptocracy, abuse of power, and outright stupidity.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

I'm going to tolerate being in a coalition with a sexist institution. It's just reality, and I'll have to live with it for the time being. But there is no way on earth I will back down from my position about the sexism in some of the groups I'll be making common cause with over the next few years. I'll do my best not to choke on the irony that sexism is a primary reason we are facing at least four years of shameless kleptocracy, abuse of power, and outright stupidity.

[Overused]

A home run. See it soar into the stands.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:

Nobody who isn't racist is going to pretend to be racist; nobody who isn't sexist is going to pretend to be sexist; nobody who respects liberal democracy and the rule of law is going to pretend not to respect liberal democracy and the rule of law.

Umm... unless it is your goal to get those racists, sexists and pocket fascists to vote for you. And of course if you have no morals. Then you say what you need to say, to get them to do what you want. Afterwards, you may or may not throw them over the side. Depending upon your own needs and convenience.
I quite hope he'll throw them over the side. And I'm sure that if they no longer are of any use to him for either power or money or ego-validation he'll do just that. If he thinks the white supremacists are beginning to take him for granted he'll go all liberal until they're properly grateful again.
But if he has no morals he's hardly going to have much respect for the rule of law.

(Why is this different from the conservatives claiming Obama was going to lock up his political opponents? Well, Obama never said he was going to lock up his political opponents, and Trump did.)

[ 16. November 2016, 10:40: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
 
Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Interesting insight reported in the Economist editorial this week:

Trump's supporters took him seriously but not literally;

Trump's opponents took him literally but not seriously.

Peter Thiel, Silicon Valley tech zillionaire and Trump supporter, said this in a speech before it showed up in the Economist.

Interesting viewpoint, but I am rather skeptical. Thiel may just be speaking for himself.

Trump constantly said throughout his campaign that he would personally stop a large manufacturing factory (Carrier) from moving its operations from Indianapolis, Indiana to Monterrey, Mexico. He said this time and again.

There was a front-page article in the NY Times 4 days ago about the employees at the Carrier Indianapolis factory. The jobs at Carrier are high-paying and it will not be possible for the employees to make that kind of money and/or receive those kind of benefits at other jobs in the Indianapolis area. Jobs like working at the local Walmart distribution warehouse, for example--wages there are $12 per hour, and Carrier is paying people $23 per hour --- thanks to unions (United Steelworkers, for one).

Many of the employees voted for Trump precisely because they took him at his word that he'd stop the Carrier factory from moving. They also stated that if it didn't happen, they'd vote for someone else next time. According to the article, it is quite clear that the move to Mexico is a done deal. Trump cannot stop it by fiat. Carrier reports to its stockholders, not the president of the US.

Trump promised he'd bring back manufacturing jobs, build a wall, deport people, register Muslims, crack down on minorities, and so on. Most of these promises will probably turn out to be verbal vaporware, like so much of what comes out of Trump's mouth, but he got into office because of those promises. I think a large number of his voters took him literally and will expect that these promises will come to pass. If not, they'll turn on him.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:


(Why is this different from the conservatives claiming Obama was going to lock up his political opponents? Well, Obama never said he was going to lock up his political opponents, and Trump did.) [/QB]

Tch. It is only mid-November. Obama has a good two months, to initiate the Muslim Caliphate, take away all the guns, impose sharia law, make everybody either gay or lesbian, lock up his opponents, and build prison camps in the parking lots of WalMart. But he had better get it in gear. Personally I would be content if he rammed Merritt Garland through into the Supreme Court. There's a petition on, urging him to do that.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

I'm going to tolerate being in a coalition with a sexist institution. It's just reality, and I'll have to live with it for the time being. But there is no way on earth I will back down from my position about the sexism in some of the groups I'll be making common cause with over the next few years. I'll do my best not to choke on the irony that sexism is a primary reason we are facing at least four years of shameless kleptocracy, abuse of power, and outright stupidity.

[Overused]

A home run. See it soar into the stands.

I think we've all seen a team make a home run but lose the game.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

I'm going to tolerate being in a coalition with a sexist institution. It's just reality, and I'll have to live with it for the time being. But there is no way on earth I will back down from my position about the sexism in some of the groups I'll be making common cause with over the next few years. I'll do my best not to choke on the irony that sexism is a primary reason we are facing at least four years of shameless kleptocracy, abuse of power, and outright stupidity.

[Overused]

A home run. See it soar into the stands.

But if the institution that is so fraught with sexism stands to change if we engage with the person in front of us, doesn't it stand to reason to build that person up with good things to take back into that institution with her? Like a sense of her own worth and power, and the respectful interchange of ideas?

Maybe institutions need to be tolerated, but eventually you need to think about how you deal with people. Because people can change.

I stand to go back to my Head Start assignment next week.( Aside-- it's been interesting to me how issues in federal childcare mirror women's rights issues in general). The woman I described in my what- if was not hypothetical, she represents a composite of all the women I will be facing when I go back-- Catholic, Latina, pro- life, pro birth control! Anti- misogyny, definitely anti-racism, anti- Trump, pro- Hillary. Whateverthehell about the institution of Catholicism, they deserve a lot more than my tolerance.

If they are still there. My fear is, despite the soothing words of the state of CA about no change in immigration policies, they might clear out anyway.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Sioni: the answer in such cases is NOT to stop swinging.

[ 16. November 2016, 14:37: Message edited by: RuthW ]
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Kelly and Callan: replace "sexism" with "racism" in what you've written on this page and tell me if you're just as comfortable with it. Which racist institutions will you collaborate with for the next four years?
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
None. I was talking about people. I would have no problem at all collaberating with the women I described, and if you knew them, you would't either.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by Callan:
So Kelly is quite correct not to tell her Catholic friend that she is propping up a sexist institution. That helps precisely no-one. As far as the electorate is concerned it must be remembered that one catches more flies with honey, than with vinegar.

Indeed you do. However, the plan appears to be double down on the othering of Trump supporters hoping that this time shame works. Secret ballot makes that problematic. The more Trump's foes demonize Trump and his supporters the less Trump actually has to do. Heck, the mass freakout has already given some Trump voters what they wanted. Already, they are thinking, "What will they do if he wins twice?"

quote:
originally posted by Callan:
When Obama was elected the Republicans announced that their aim was to make him a one term President. The Democrats should return the compliments with knobs on.

No doubt they will. Problem is it won't have the same effect as when the Republicans did it. Republicans knew when they used that tactic the Democrats would return the favor when they were in the minority yet they did it anyway. Why? Republicans don't care about passing legislation as much as Democrats. Plus, Obama set the precedent of overcoming gridlock by using executive order. Now, Trump can accomplish much of what he wants to do by cancelling Obama's executive orders and issuing his own. Most of what he wants to do with immigration won't require a vote from congress. Much of what you fear regarding foreign policy doesn't require a vote from congress. Democrats passed much of ACA using a parliamentary trick. Republicans can use the same trick to repeal it. Wait...it gets worse. Of the things Trump needs congressional approval to implement, much of it is stuff Democrats want to get done more than Republicans (trade, infrastructure, increasing the minimum wage, etc...). Are they going to refuse to work with him on issues important to the voters who switched to Trump after voting Democrat in the last 7 elections? Furthermore, when it boils down to it, Trump is a moderate on most political issues. Trump could play both sides against the middle a la Bill Clinton.

What about the 2010 midterm election where a wave of Tea Party anger swept tons of Republicans into office? Could that happen? It's possible. The presidents party usually loses seats in congress after in midterm elections. Plus, Trump most certainly will do stupid stuff that inspires anger. Now, here is the problem. After 2010, the Republicans won control of a surprising number of state legislatures. They redrew the district maps to create as many safe house seats as possible. In the Senate, 33 seats will be contested. Of those, 33 seats only 8 are currently held by Republicans. Of those 8 held by Republicans, only 1 of them is in a state won by Clinton. Of 25 held by Democrats, 10 of them are in states carried by Trump. You do the math. Again, Trump is the president so it's certainly possible.

quote:
originally posted by Callan:
I would have thought that the national interest was best served by not having a Russian Asset in the White House. Everything else is a matter of detail.

Trump did ask individual nations in NATO to increase their defense spending. Hard to see why the United States should be more worried about Russian encroachment into the Baltic than Germany. Just looking at a map, there is the Atlantic Ocean and every single member of NATO between the US and Russia. I'm thinking the whole rest of Europe can check Russian aggression regardless of what the United States does.

quote:
originally posted by Callan:
Read this.

I love stuff like that, thanks!!! Let me leave you this in return. Start with Open Letter and Gentle Introduction. At least one small corner of the alt right believes exactly what your guy thinks it believes. Conspiracies are so fun!
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I can't provide a link from the UK, but John Oliver's "Last Week Tonight" (HBO) on Trump's victory, aftermath, and "what to do" is a comic-serious masterpiece.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
This one?
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
John Oliver and company deserve an assist in getting Trump elected.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
W Hyatt

Probably. Access is denied to that link in the UK.

Beeswax Altar

If true, that would suggest either xenophobia (how dare a Brit make fun of OUR candidate) or a loss of belief in the First Amendment as a freedom for folks of contrary views. And it was on HBO, for goodness sake.

Plus he told the truth. Oh wait. Maybe that was the big error?
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
Oh..John Oliver's company includes Americans as well. Nobody said they didn't have a right to say what they said. Of course, you can't control how others are going to react to what you say. Maybe, continuing to call 60 million people names will work this time. How sure is everybody it will work this time? What if it doesn't? What if Donald Trump is as bad as he can be while obeying the law? What if the name calling is every bit as effective as it was this election? What then?
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar

Now, here is the problem. After 2010, the Republicans won control of a surprising number of state legislatures. They redrew the district maps to create as many safe house seats as possible. In the Senate, 33 seats will be contested. Of those, 33 seats only 8 are currently held by Republicans. Of those 8 held by Republicans, only 1 of them is in a state won by Clinton. Of 25 held by Democrats, 10 of them are in states carried by Trump. You do the math. Again, Trump is the president so it's certainly possible.

Can you help me please. What are the problems with setting up an independent federal electoral commission to draw boundaries, staff polling booths, maintain electoral rolls etc, purely for federal elections of course. Are these legal problems or political?
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Hilda wrote:

quote:
Trump promised he'd bring back manufacturing jobs, build a wall, deport people, register Muslims, crack down on minorities, and so on. Most of these promises will probably turn out to be verbal vaporware, like so much of what comes out of Trump's mouth, but he got into office because of those promises. I think a large number of his voters took him literally and will expect that these promises will come to pass. If not, they'll turn on him.

I dunno. I think Trump's supporters are the kind of people who are easily impressed by symbolic gestures. So, even if he doesn't build that wall, if he throws a bit more money at Homeland Security to fortify the border here and there, and then fires off a few obnoxious tweests about how this is gonna keep out all the rapists and drug-dealers(thus provoking outrage from liberals and Democrats in the media), a lot of his fans will probably think he's really taking action on the issue.

Granted, if you were expecting Trump to save your particular factory, and if that factory shurs down on his watch, you're gonna be pretty disillusioned with him. But if you were just expecting him to protect jobs in general, and he slaps on a tariff on something or other(see GW Bush and steel), and the media reports that this has kept a few factories afloat somewhere in the Rust Belt, you'll probably be satisfied enough to vote for him again.

[ 16. November 2016, 20:32: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Sioni: the answer in such cases is NOT to stop swinging.

The problem with going to the latest post first and then scrolling up is that you might see posts out of context...
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
BA--

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Hard to see why the United States should be more worried about Russian encroachment into the Baltic than Germany. Just looking at a map, there is the Atlantic Ocean and every single member of NATO between the US and Russia. I'm thinking the whole rest of Europe can check Russian aggression regardless of what the United States does.

Pssst...they can also come across the Pacific, you know...
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Gee D--

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Can you help me please. What are the problems with setting up an independent federal electoral commission to draw boundaries, staff polling booths, maintain electoral rolls etc, purely for federal elections of course. Are these legal problems or political?

There's be cultural problems: distrust of the federal gov't, attitudes about states' rights, hating being told what to do. Those things are really entrenched.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
AIUI Congress could regulate and run congressional elections, but it cannot regulate presidential elections.

It's an old sport in Canada to think that's nuts, as there has been a single national electoral office, Act of Parliament and staff for federal elections since 1920.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
BA--

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Hard to see why the United States should be more worried about Russian encroachment into the Baltic than Germany. Just looking at a map, there is the Atlantic Ocean and every single member of NATO between the US and Russia. I'm thinking the whole rest of Europe can check Russian aggression regardless of what the United States does.

Pssst...they can also come across the Pacific, you know...
And the Bering Strait between Russia and Alaska is all of 51 miles wide.

[Mind you, I do think other members of NATO should dig more into their pockets to pay for the overall costs.]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh..John Oliver's company includes Americans as well. Nobody said they didn't have a right to say what they said. Of course, you can't control how others are going to react to what you say. Maybe, continuing to call 60 million people names will work this time. How sure is everybody it will work this time? What if it doesn't? What if Donald Trump is as bad as he can be while obeying the law? What if the name calling is every bit as effective as it was this election? What then?

I prefer Oliver's own explanation.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Thanks Golden Key - I was thinking purely of federal elections, not presidential (which I understand is constitutional) or state.

SPK - we have different commissions for state and federal elections. Much data exchange between them of course and other co-operation. All have independence with judicial oversight.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Gee D--

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Thanks Golden Key - I was thinking purely of federal elections, not presidential (which I understand is constitutional) or state.

Ok, so you mean members of Congress? Representatives and senators? They represent the (people of) the states, so the same things I mentioned would apply. 2 senators per state, and representatives according to the state's population.

Plus we bundle our elections together, and take care of many things at the same time. So, in the recent election, San Franciscans voted for president, members of Congress, California legislators and officials, California legal measures, San Francisco officials, and San Francisco legal measures.

ISTM that your suggestions would be best implemented by a separate election. That would cost extra. And an extra election would probably draw fewer voters.

FWIW.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Oh, yes, I know the constitution of the houses of Congress, but am questioning the ability of Congress to establish a federal electoral commission to oversee elections, maintain the rolls, staff to booths, count the votes, draw the electoral boundaries etc. Here, all that is done by such a commission for federal elections, and by state equivalents for state elections.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
{Don't know if anyone's posted this...}

From Hillary's campaign blog, posted the day after the election:

"Thank you. I am so grateful to stand with all of you."

[Tear]
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
It is quite telling, in lots of disturbing ways, that Bannon appears to be at very least courting white supremicists and anti-semites whilst at the same time (along with some of those groups) supporting Zionism and Israel.

Indeed, in that radio programme I posted before, Richard Spencer specifically references Israel as a model for his white-only homeland.

It is also pretty telling that even Glenn Beck thinks the alt-right are beyond the pail.

But then Mad Mel and Dershowitz think we should all calm down and give Bannon the benefit of the doubt. So that's ok then.
 
Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :
 
I apologise for using this thread to ask a question which may be off-piste, since I am not generally engaged in the thread. So . .

Does anyone know of research that indicates what effect third-party candidates had on the election result?

I'm just interested.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I apologise for using this thread to ask a question which may be off-piste, since I am not generally engaged in the thread. So . .

Does anyone know of research that indicates what effect third-party candidates had on the election result?

I'm just interested.

Did Gary Johnson and Jill Stein tip the 2016 election?

The answer, according to that article, is no, they did not. I didn't give it that close a read, so can't comment.

[ 17. November 2016, 10:33: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It is quite telling, in lots of disturbing ways, that Bannon appears to be at very least courting white supremicists and anti-semites whilst at the same time (along with some of those groups) supporting Zionism and Israel.


None of which will fly in any cordial relationship between Trump and Putin. But I doubt whether Trump has thought that through. On the evidence of the campaign and his business life, he's not that good at thinking things through. Despite the admitted succcess of his "aim-low" campaign tactics, I think he doesn't have a lot of patience with the complexities of normal diplomatic considerations.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Hmm...there is a lot of twitter chatter about the Muslim registry thing being planned. Included in the chatter is a video on Fox New of a surrogate suggesting as precedent Japanese internment camps and saying its OK to take away constitutional rights and protections of some "until we know what the threat is". To Fox news credit, the host told him how wrong the precedent was and how wrong he was about the constitutional rights idea.

If the Trump administration attempts to implement this, there will be a boycott USA backlash. Get ready for adverts saying "How can you go to the Magic Kingdom while America does this?"
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
@ Og overleaf

Not wishing to tempt fate, but the situation on that front feels tinder-dry. All it needs is one provocative attack linked to ISIS and constitutional niceties will fly out of the window.

A pot shot at the Inauguration - or something similar, would light the blue touchpaper.

[ 17. November 2016, 11:14: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gee D--

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Can you help me please. What are the problems with setting up an independent federal electoral commission to draw boundaries, staff polling booths, maintain electoral rolls etc, purely for federal elections of course. Are these legal problems or political?

There's be cultural problems: distrust of the federal gov't, attitudes about states' rights, hating being told what to do. Those things are really entrenched.
Interesting that, with the exception of a few states-rights purists like Ron and Rand Paul, conservative opponents of federal interference never seemed to have much problem with the War On Drugs.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
There was some angry person from Breitbart tearing into the Today programme this morning on the BBC accusing them of poor journalism because of their suggesting that Bannon was antisemitic. Not doing his own cause any good, except in the ears of his alt-right followers, I should imagine.

He blamed the idea on an accusation from Bannon's divorced wife. "Are you divorced?" he attacked - implying that if not the interviewer could not know that remarks made in divorce cases were lies.

They didn't pick up on the anti-woman stuff.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I can't find the link now, but a legislator in Georgia has proposed banning the hijab. Ladies in my circle are already discussing asking Catholic nuns to weigh in. Also Mennonites (if there are any in Georgia), and someone has produced the relevant text from 1Cor, the one about how women ought to cover their hair.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can't find the link now, but a legislator in Georgia has proposed banning the hijab. Ladies in my circle are already discussing asking Catholic nuns to weigh in. Also Mennonites (if there are any in Georgia), and someone has produced the relevant text from 1Cor, the one about how women ought to cover their hair.

Ack. I fear I will need to take up the hijab, something I"m loathe to do but would feel compelled to do as an act of Christian witness should such a ban be enacted nation-wide (fortunately my very blue state is unlikely to do so on a state level). Same as registering on the Muslim registry should such come to pass.

Bleh.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Hmm...there is a lot of twitter chatter about the Muslim registry thing being planned. Included in the chatter is a video on Fox New of a surrogate suggesting as precedent Japanese internment camps and saying its OK to take away constitutional rights and protections of some "until we know what the threat is". To Fox news credit, the host told him how wrong the precedent was and how wrong he was about the constitutional rights idea. "

Perhaps pointing out to the "starve the beast" "no government spending" GOP budget wonks that that little stunt cost the US $500 million in reparations would be a dash of cold water.


quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

If the Trump administration attempts to implement this, there will be a boycott USA backlash. Get ready for adverts saying "How can you go to the Magic Kingdom while America does this?"

Forget about the magic kingdom-- can we be a part of God's Kingdom if we stand idly by?
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Maybe get yourself one with crosses on it just to freak out the ignorant and rude. Bonus points if you can get stars of David mixed in.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Oh fabric, always helpful. I am thinking cards with the ICor passage would also be good to hand out.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by GeeD:
Can you help me please. What are the problems with setting up an independent federal electoral commission to draw boundaries, staff polling booths, maintain electoral rolls etc, purely for federal elections of course. Are these legal problems or political?

The constitution gives the states the power to determine how their representatives are elected but allows Congress to pass laws changing the rules. So, in theory, congress could establish such a commission that drew boundaries, staffed poll booths, and maintained electoral rolls. The problem is political. Not enough people with a vote believe such a commission is in their best interest. So, it won't happen.

quote:
originally posted by Stetson:
So, even if he doesn't build that wall, if he throws a bit more money at Homeland Security to fortify the border here and there, and then fires off a few obnoxious tweests about how this is gonna keep out all the rapists and drug-dealers(thus provoking outrage from liberals and Democrats in the media), a lot of his fans will probably think he's really taking action on the issue.

Bingo

Plus, Trump will deport some people. Any increase in deportations by the Trump Administration will induce freakout. Freakout will convince Trump's supporters that he is keeping his promises and they will be happy.

quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
Pssst...they can also come across the Pacific, you know...

Depends on what you mean by come across the Pacific. Do you mean the Russians have naval vessels that can make it across the Pacific? Then, yes, they can in fact come across the Pacific. On the other hand, if you mean that the Russians can invade the West Coast of the United States by crossing the Pacific, then the answer is no, no, they can't come across the Pacific.

quote:
originally posted by Barnabas62:
And the Bering Strait between Russia and Alaska is all of 51 miles wide.

Yes, in theory, the Russians could invade Alaska. Invading Alaska would make the Russian invasion of Afghanistan look like a good idea. Putin wants to expand Russian influence in the West not start a suicidal war with the United States.

quote:
originally posted by mr. cheesy:
It is quite telling, in lots of disturbing ways, that Bannon appears to be at very least courting white supremicists and anti-semites whilst at the same time (along with some of those groups) supporting Zionism and Israel.

Bannon runs a clickbait site that attracts all sorts of people. Left wing click bait sites attract people conservatives find beyond the pale also. So what? What argument against Donald Trump can you make that doesn't require a Trump supporter to accept your definition of racism, sexism, and xenophobia? You absolutely can. I'd focus on those.

quote:
originally posted by Barnabas62:
But I doubt whether Trump has thought that through.

I don't know if he did or not. Trump doesn't want to be president. Trump is surprised he is president. Trump really wanted to keep on hosting Celebrity Apprentice. However, there is a reason Trump is the president elect instead of hosting a reality show. Wouldn't be nice if NBC hadn't cancelled Celebrity Apprentice and cut ties with Trump?

quote:
originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
If the Trump administration attempts to implement this, there will be a boycott USA backlash. Get ready for adverts saying "How can you go to the Magic Kingdom while America does this?"

I'm guessing if we are at the point where Muslims are being rounded up and put into concentration camps that Disney's profit margins won't be high on a list of national priorities.

quote:
originally posted by Penny S:
Not doing his own cause any good, except in the ears of his alt-right followers, I should imagine.

Yes, but alt-right has replaced "tea party" which had replaced "neocon" as the left's new scare label. Basically, it means the vast majority of people who voted for Trump. So, only doing good in the ears of his alt-right followers means doing quite a bit of good. Now, all the people who are actually alt-right could go to Disney World on the same day and the park wouldn't be that crowded. Neoconservatives...now they were bad. Everybody knew they were a cabal of Jewish intellectuals and bureaucrats who seized control of the Republican Party and used the United States to do the bidding of Israel. Wait...is stuff like that anti-semitic now?
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Yes, but alt-right has replaced "tea party" which had replaced "neocon" as the left's new scare label. Basically, it means the vast majority of people who voted for Trump. So, only doing good in the ears of his alt-right followers means doing quite a bit of good. Now, all the people who are actually alt-right could go to Disney World on the same day and the park wouldn't be that crowded. Neoconservatives...now they were bad. Everybody knew they were a cabal of Jewish intellectuals and bureaucrats who seized control of the Republican Party and used the United States to do the bidding of Israel. Wait...is stuff like that anti-semitic now?

Well, in addition to being oversued scare labels, I do think neo-conservative and alt-right have clear meanings, useful for sorting out just who's who on the right side of the spectrum.

Neo-cons, who I believe actually went by that label, were a group of left-wingers in the 1960s, centreed around Commentary magazine, who eventually gravitated to the right, and ended up having some not inconsiderable influence in the Reagan administration, and later Bush II. As you reference, they were uniformly pro-Israel, but did not always take their cue from Likud, eg. they supported Clinton's bombing of Serbia, even though that was opposed by the Israelis.

So-called alt-right(not sure if anyone actually cops to that label) are more pre-occupied with race, in a Bell Curve sort of a way. Their roots seem to be more on the internet, various "white nationalist" bloggers etc. Some of them tend to be anti-Israel and isolationist, in a way that veers into Charles Lindbergh territory. They generally don't care for the people labelled neo-con.

(Tea Party, I think, was never more than a GOP astroturf movement consisting of people who never voted for Obama to begin with, marching around with signs announcing how much they hated Obama.)

Trump, I am predicting, will talk alt-right, but govern neo-con. We'll have a better idea when we see his nominees for State, Defense, UN ambassador etc.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Beeswax Altar:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
Pssst...they can also come across the Pacific, you know...

Depends on what you mean by
come across the Pacific. Do you mean the Russians have naval vessels that can make it across the Pacific? Then, yes, they can in fact come across the Pacific. On the other hand, if you mean that the Russians can invade the West Coast of the United States by crossing the Pacific, then the answer is no, no, they can't come across the Pacific.


O...k... Look, this conversation would be much easier if you'd detail what you mean. E.g., "There's nothing worthwhile enough on the West Coast"; "They'd get tangled in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch"; "Here there be sea monsters".


According to the Pacific Centric World Map (Maps Of World), they really *can* get here from there.
[Biased]

Enlighten us, please.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Thanks to all for your comments and advice. It's a pity in many ways that there is no federal commission - that would deal with behaviour noted on earlier threads about intimidation, restrictions on voting access and so forth. Also have a more equal drawing of electoral boundaries.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
It would be an excellent thing indeed, and all wiser observers agree that it would be good to implement. Alas, the upcoming regime is unlikely to be interested. They won on the dodgy tactics, and cannot now concede any flaw,
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
So-called alt-right(not sure if anyone actually cops to that label) are more pre-occupied with race, in a Bell Curve sort of a way. Their roots seem to be more on the internet, various "white nationalist" bloggers etc. Some of them tend to be anti-Israel and isolationist, in a way that veers into Charles Lindbergh territory. They generally don't care for the people labelled neo-con.

AIUI alt-right was coined by the people it refers to.
As I understand it, alt-right differs from the traditional far right in being largely atheist, libertarian, pro-elitist, and pro-STEM(*). Basically they're Randwankers.

(*) Science, technology, engineering, mathematics / medicine.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
From everything I can see, the core of alt-right is racism and misogyny. Whatever other flavours mixed into individula recipes, this stock is in its base.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From everything I can see, the core of alt-right is racism and misogyny. Whatever other flavours mixed into individula recipes, this stock is in its base.

I think that goes for the far right generally. (And the not so far right. And if we're honest some parts of the centre and the left.) It's the other bits that distinguish the alt-right from the traditional far right.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that goes for the far right generally.

Bzzt! Not so fast.

Marine le Pen

and her niece

Marion Maréchal-Le Pen
 
Posted by Hiro's Leap (# 12470) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
AIUI alt-right was coined by the people it refers to.
As I understand it, alt-right differs from the traditional far right in being largely atheist, libertarian, pro-elitist, and pro-STEM(*). Basically they're Randwankers.

That's more or less my understanding too, although the term is a bit nebulous. The 'original' alt-right is very much about race and is deeply antisemitic - there's a disturbing trick where alt-right posters will enclose a Jewish person's name in three parentheses, e.g. "General relativity was developed by (((Albert Einstein)))".

There's also a much broader online anti-SJW movement (for lack of a better phrase) which sometimes gets lumped in with them by opponents. This is pretty misleading - many of them identify as disgruntled lefties- but there's some overlap.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From everything I can see, the core of alt-right is racism and misogyny. Whatever other flavours mixed into individula recipes, this stock is in its base.

I think that goes for the far right generally. (And the not so far right. And if we're honest some parts of the centre and the left.) It's the other bits that distinguish the alt-right from the traditional far right.
Yes, the Far right are as you say, but from right to far right is a spectrum with indistinct lines and dog whistle terminology. Alt-right is a clean wall separation with no hidden agenda.

Well, not a clean wall, covered racist and misogynist graffiti, but a distinct separation.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
"Alt-right" is simply a new name for neo-Nazi white nationalists. Robert Spencer claims to have invented the term. He wants the US to be a safe space for Americans of European descent. He was interviewed on All Things Considered (National Public Radio news show) last night. You can listen or read the transcript here. Try not to throw up.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
"Alt-right" is simply a new name for neo-Nazi white nationalists. Robert Spencer claims to have invented the term. He wants the US to be a safe space for Americans of European descent. He was interviewed on All Things Considered (National Public Radio news show) last night. You can listen or read the transcript here. Try not to throw up.

This bit from the repulsive toad
quote:
SPENCER: Whenever many different races are in the same school, what will happen is that there'll be a natural segregation at lunchtime, at PE, at - in terms of after-school play.
is a clue as to why President-elect Cheeto came to be.
The statement portrays a result as an origin. Uncritical acceptance of such shite draws the bordering, less hardened racist-ish people.
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
The TFO appears to have settled a lawsuit relating to his Trump University alleged fraud.

Good thing? Bad thing? Any thoughts on this?
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that goes for the far right generally.

Bzzt! Not so fast.

Marine le Pen

and her niece

Marion Maréchal-Le Pen

Serious question - do the Le Pen's show any sign of misogyny? Because I know its possible to be, for lack of a phrase, self-misogynistic.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
The TFO appears to have settled a lawsuit relating to his Trump University alleged fraud.

Good thing? Bad thing? Any thoughts on this?

In the terms of the settlement, IIRC, he does not admit guilt. Therefore can claim it was not because of guilt, but out of expediency that it was done.
Those who support him will believe/not care and those who don't will assume guilt.
The reality is that by the trial being postponed and the case being settled, it has no effect on anything.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This bit from the repulsive toad
quote:
SPENCER: Whenever many different races are in the same school, what will happen is that there'll be a natural segregation at lunchtime, at PE, at - in terms of after-school play.
is a clue as to why President-elect Cheeto came to be.
The statement portrays a result as an origin. Uncritical acceptance of such shite draws the bordering, less hardened racist-ish people.

I can attest that this is not a universal truth. The school I taught at the last 2 years could have been invented to disprove that claim. The lunchroom was fully integrated, there were no signs of racial antagonism in the hallways or classrooms. Pairs in the halls were of ever conceivable configuration given the make-up of the student body. Black with white, white with hispanic, black with Asian, boy with boy, girl with girl* -- nobody seemed to care who was holding hands with whom. As it should be.


_______________
*A sampling. Complete the chart yourself.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
My early childhood was in an atmosphere were race wasn't a concept. It wasn't "not mentioned", it simply was not a thing. I did not know that colour was "important" until I was exposed to greater society.
Racism is taught. A problem is that adults think they are more subtle than they are. Their attitudes are communicated and passed to their children with words and actions they think children will miss and/or that they do not know they are expressing.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is well known. As the song goes, "You've got to be taught to hate and fear; you've got to be carefully taught."
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Mike Pence received a few boos when he attended a performance of "Hamilton." Then the cast delivered a short statement to him.

Well, our twitter-happy president-elect couldn't resist tweeting about it

So a new twitter meme has emerged Name a Pence Musical

My favorite is "The Lyin' King" [Smile]

sabine
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
My early childhood was in an atmosphere were race wasn't a concept. It wasn't "not mentioned", it simply was not a thing. I did not know that colour was "important" until I was exposed to greater society.
Racism is taught. A problem is that adults think they are more subtle than they are. Their attitudes are communicated and passed to their children with words and actions they think children will miss and/or that they do not know they are expressing.

My early childhood was spent in 1960s South Africa. Racism was enshrined in law. I was taught to be the opposite, my parents broke the law all the time.

But yes, attitudes to everything are learned from the adults (and peers) around us.

I'm appalled that it looks like the only woman in Trump's line up will be Sarah Palin [Disappointed] [Eek!]

It feels like the world has suddenly regressed 70 years. Why did none of us see this coming? Echo chamber effect?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is well known. As the song goes, "You've got to be taught to hate and fear; you've got to be carefully taught."

I realise the song is simple to make a point, but in reality one doesn't need to be carefully taught. Your* discomfort with a particular group is apparent even if you never verbally express it. And this is transmitted to your family and friends. Who often have a similar, low/sublimated level of feeling.
And this is why racism, misogyny and xenophobia were a greater factor than many would think of themselves.


*General you, not specifically you
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

It feels like the world has suddenly regressed 70 years. Why did none of us see this coming? Echo chamber effect?

ISTM, the echo chamber effect is part of the reason people bought into the the lies perpetrated by Trump. And Brexit, for that matter. I suppose it also allows people to be insulated from the crazy as well. The idea of self imposed bubbles is so bizarre to me.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The idea of self imposed bubbles is so bizarre to me.

How much do you hang out on, say, Free Republic as compared to the Ship?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The idea of self imposed bubbles is so bizarre to me.

How much do you hang out on, say, Free Republic as compared to the Ship?
It is not so much who I hang out with as opposed to who and what I am aware of.
However, if you include the entirety of my circles of interaction (friends, family, and their friends and family; work encounters and chance encounters) I am exposed to quite a variety of opinion.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Some people undoubtedly have broader social circles than others, but I think it's perilous to entertain the notion that we don't live in a self-imposed bubble ourselves. In real life I try hard not to, for instance by doing assignments in worlds I would normally never go anywhere near, but it takes a positive effort.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Some people undoubtedly have broader social circles than others, but I think it's perilous to entertain the notion that we don't live in a self-imposed bubble ourselves. In real life I try hard not to, for instance by doing assignments in worlds I would normally never go anywhere near, but it takes a positive effort.

I'm not going to pretend that I don't have cognitive biases or that I am more likely to trust sources that have the a similar POV to mine. I simply find the level that people take these natural inclinations strange. Like Facebook, Twitter, instagram, etc. People are using a tool that allows them to sample the world to isolate themselves further.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Mike Pence received a few boos when he attended a performance of "Hamilton." Then the cast delivered a short statement to him.

Well, our twitter-happy president-elect couldn't resist tweeting about it

Specifically, because of the current discourse it was equally amusing, sad and ironic that he phrased it as "The Theater must always be a safe and special place."

The booing was a bit crass, but the prepared speech seemed a fairly legitimate response. Someone should tell Pence and Trump that if you go to the theatre sooner or later you are going to have to face ideas that challenge your own.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
As long as it's just ideas.

Trump's tweet seemed to show a misunderstanding about what happened, confirming the impression that he's a man who hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. 'All lies and jests'.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The booing was a bit crass, but the prepared speech seemed a fairly legitimate response. Someone should tell Pence and Trump that if you go to the theatre sooner or later you are going to have to face ideas that challenge your own.

Pence calls for electrocuting gay+ people into being straight. There are a lot of gay+ people in theatre. Getting booed is getting off easy.

Worse things have happened to Republicans who went to the theatre.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Worse things have happened to Republicans who went to the theatre.

[Killing me] [Overused]
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Politicians get booed at sporting events all the time. Including Pence in the past in Indiana, by some accounts I saw today.

Typical how those who claim their opponents have thin skins and can't take criticism are showing an inability to take any criticism.

[ 20. November 2016, 01:03: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
--Re being booed:

Condi Rice, then Secretary of State, was booed when she went to a Broadway play during Hurricane Katrina, and also got a backlash for doing expensive shopping then. Several years later, she said she should've realized that was a bad idea.


--Re Trump and possible conflicts of interest:

All kinds of fun things going on. (HuffPost)
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Evidently, when Mike Pence attended "Hamilton", he was the least popular vice president in the room. Remember Aaron Burr was onstage.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Some people undoubtedly have broader social circles than others, but I think it's perilous to entertain the notion that we don't live in a self-imposed bubble ourselves. In real life I try hard not to, for instance by doing assignments in worlds I would normally never go anywhere near, but it takes a positive effort.

The complete and utter shock I experienced when the words "Trump elected president" flashed across my screen was all the evidence I needed that I do in fact inhabit an echo chamber/ bubble
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Amen to that. For me it was the percentage tally at the bottom of the 538 page.

Dave Chappelle's "Election Night" skit on SNL nailed it. Can't link at the moment, but do Google it if you haven't seen it.

[ 20. November 2016, 04:02: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Evidently, when Mike Pence attended "Hamilton", he was the least popular vice president in the room. Remember Aaron Burr was onstage.

(Wry smile.)
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
cliffdweller--

And I'm still hoping that it's some weird, extended nightmare, and I'll wake up soon.

I'm less driven to look up all sorts of Trump news, but I do come across some of it. I'm watching a lot of retro TV--even Dr. Who, though it was weird to see it on a commercial station!

I hate the way that Trump et al have scared everyone, including little kids who're worried they're going to be shipped off.

I'm also intrigued by all the reality water balloons that are headed Trump's way--illegal nepotism, assorted other protocol and legal problems. I think even the pope made a thinly-veiled reference to him, about being good to immigrants and not walling them out. (Something he reportedly said, in the last couple of days.)

Cue more creative protests, like the "Hamilton" cast's.

I'm not sure whether T's Twitter habit is bad (we have to hear about it, and he may say all sorts of stuff he shouldn't, and give away secrets), or good (the more he talks, the more he spills about himself and his ideas). Probably both.

[Votive]
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I assume that this is the right thread for this. General Flynn has been nominated to be National Security Advisor. That gives Putin a man in the White House, at a very senior level, who has taken his money.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I assume that this is the right thread for this. General Flynn has been nominated to be National Security Advisor. That gives Putin a man in the White House, at a very senior level, who has taken his money.

This farce gets more farcical by the day.

[Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Just saw a promo for the new version of "Celebrity Apprentice", hosted by...Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Given various news stories and allegations, back when Arnold was governor here, NBC may not have improved the interpersonal behavior of the host.

Years back, someone in Congress wanted to change the "natural-born citizen" clause, specifically so that Arnold could be president. Fortunately, that didn't get very far.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh God oh God oh God ohGod. I hope this doesn't mean he has dropped his newfound eco- consciousness.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Iran. What is the US going to do about the nuclear deal? Hopefully it's irrelevant as Europe and Russia will keep to the deal. What would Trump do then? He won't alienate Russia. Will he continue Obama's sanctions on it for Ukraine? I doubt it and I doubt he gives a damn what Europe thinks: he'll just do deals with everybody on a bilateral basis. Win-win like Krupp in the Boer War: supply both sides. The liberal multilateral West is dead. So why not continue the deal with Iran?

[ 20. November 2016, 12:37: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I assume that this is the right thread for this. General Flynn has been nominated to be National Security Advisor. That gives Putin a man in the White House, at a very senior level, who has taken his money.

This farce gets more farcical by the day.

[Roll Eyes]

I disagree. The farce is becoming clearer, but no greater.
But it will not change his base; the farce can have a strong influence on the weak minded.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
lilBuddha--

Hmmm...so what we need is for Obi Wan Kenobi to tell the Trump machine "this is not the country you are looking for"?
[Biased]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Gwai--

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Boy is that true! I think it's still hard to tell which statements we should be taking literally.

Best, I think, to take all of what Trump's said and done both literally *and* seriously. That way, we can be prepared.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I wonder what Mitt Romney will do about the Sec State offer? Looks like a poisoned chalice to me. But it must be tempting. I'd like to have been a fly on the wall. Here's an imagined snippet

"DT. Well, what do you think?

MR. Who else do you have in mind?

DT. You're first. But I'm still thinking about which job to give to Rudi (Giuliani)

MR. Mr President-elect, you sure know how to pressurise a man."

And in other news, it seems that Melania and youngest son Barron won't be joining the Donald in the White House for several months - schooling cited.

Such "fun" for the security detail - not.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Michelle Obama did the same thing for her daughters, at least until the school year was ended.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Iran. What is the US going to do about the nuclear deal? Hopefully it's irrelevant as Europe and Russia will keep to the deal. What would Trump do then? He won't alienate Russia. Will he continue Obama's sanctions on it for Ukraine? I doubt it and I doubt he gives a damn what Europe thinks: he'll just do deals with everybody on a bilateral basis. Win-win like Krupp in the Boer War: supply both sides. The liberal multilateral West is dead. So why not continue the deal with Iran?

Hard to say. Probably try to renegotiate the deal. If that doesn't work, who knows? My guess is say he tried but Obama and the Europeans negotiated a lousy deal so we just have to live with it. Trump isn't a true believer in neoconservative foreign policy. We may no more when he picks a Secretary of State.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Smart. You and him. Let's hope he is eh? And yeah, he believes in nothing at all but the deal.

[ 21. November 2016, 19:42: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
{This is hilarious, straight out of a suspense movie, and very serious--all at the same time. Please bear with me.}

So an AP photographer, a camera, and a candidate to head Homeland Security (and his secret papers) all walk into a bar...ok, walk up to Trump's golf clubhouse.

The HS candidate isn't careful with his papers, and the photographer notices.

[Killing me]

You'd almost think it was done on purpose.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
From Time Magazine, a sobering analysis of what supporting Trump has done for evangelicals. For instance, the idea that a candidate has to be moral has completely gone by the board, a 180-degree reversal in direction.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
From Time Magazine, a sobering analysis of what supporting Trump has done for evangelicals. For instance, the idea that a candidate has to be moral has completely gone by the board, a 180-degree reversal in direction.

One of those obnoxious articles that slams shut just as it's getting interesting.
 
Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :
 
Some good news this morning:
President-elect Trump has said that Nigel Farage should be the United Kingdom's ambassador to the United States.

Obviously that's not the good news. In response, Mr Farage said: "If I can help the UK in anyway, I will."

Suggestions on a postcard for how Mr Farage might help the UK.. [Biased]

AFZ
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
And it gets better [Roll Eyes] :

Pence is in the pocket of Big Tobacco, and may try to undo regulations thereof. (Yahoo)

To the extent that his 2000 campaign website said "smoking doesn't kill".

Grrrr.

I think these guys are playing Bingo, and are trying to win with blackout. (Marking off every square on the card.)
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Evidently we have not yet plumbed the depths of Mr Trump's ignorance. Ambassadors are civil servants, not politicians.

I see the Kippers are being accused of misuse of EU funds now, though I doubt it will bother their supporters.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
What do you all think about the speech made by the "Hamilton," star to Pence? For those who haven't heard anything about it, Mr. Pence attended the play with his daughters. At the end of the play, while the cast was on stage, one of the stars read a prepared speech to Pence as he was getting up to leave with the Secret Service:
quote:
We, sir — we — are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights,” he said. “We truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us.”
Although I disagree with everything Pence stands for and think he may be even more dangerous than Trump, this doesn't sit well with me at all. The actor has a stage, a captive audience full of rabid fans, and a microphone, while Pence had none of those things and was just trying to see a play with his family.

I hate that I'm on Trump's side about this.
 
Posted by Hiro's Leap (# 12470) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What do you all think about the speech made by the "Hamilton," star to Pence?

Twilight, there was a bit of discussion about it on the previous page.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.

If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Donald J Trump wants Nigel Farage to be appointed the UK's ambassador to the USA [Killing me]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Speech is (as of this writing) free in this country. The Tiny Fingered One's complaints about how the media is unfair to him (today on NPR a mention of his complaint that NBC keeps on using a stock photo of him that shows his double chins) are folly. It shows that he has no idea how a free press works, not to mention his obsession with the petty minutiae. (Although I am tell those chins are not exactly minute. Enquiring minds want to know, Mr. Prez -- when are you having a face-lift? Will Pence be in charge while you're under anesthesia?)
It is the job of the president to take the hit and smile. God alone only knows that Obama did. Suck it up, buttercup.
 
Posted by Hiro's Leap (# 12470) on :
 
Yes, I couldn't get too worked up about the theatre. Business as usual for politics.

One issue which *did* make me sympathise with Trump et al was when those naked statues of him appeared in various US cities, and the left (and the media) just sniggered and high-fived each other. So much for being against body-shaming.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I didn't. Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women! Let him see how it feels, and maybe notice that it is not so fun.
And word is he's considering one (token) woman for an appointment. She had better bring a big handbag, and hold it in front of her at all times.
 
Posted by Hiro's Leap (# 12470) on :
 
Perhaps "sympathise with Trump" is the wrong phrase. He's not a character I find it easy to feel sympathy for - he's awful, plus I'm not sure what would genuinely hurt him.

But those statues, and the media's reaction to them, still irritated me. It was a massive bit of body-shaming, and if Trump supporters had done that to HC first, the response would have been very, very different.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.

If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.

How far do we carry this though? It's okay to humiliate people in the audience if the stars don't like them? Think they're not nice? Isn't this blaming the victim? Where is the line drawn? Would it be okay to beat Pence up because he's a bigot?


It's not really free speech when only the instigator has a microphone. The right to protest has a proper time and place. Suppose some homophobe had started yelling abuse from the audience during a pivotal scene of the play? Would that have been free speech?

Pence went to a play with his family. He wasn't on the campaign trail or working in any sense of the word.

Suppose Hillary had been in the audience of a Beethoven concert, and she had been called out from the stage as a person who supports abortion when (legend says) Beethoven was almost aborted.

I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by twilight:
Although I disagree with everything Pence stands for and think he may be even more dangerous than Trump, this doesn't sit well with me at all.

How do you think it sits with the people who voted for Trump or who were sympathetic to some of Trump's policies but couldn't bring themselves to vote for him?

quote:
originally posted by mdijon:
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.

You aren't Trump's target audience.

quote:
originally posted by mdijon:
If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.

Trump voters couldn't care less how Broadway actors and a crowd of people who can afford to pay $800 for a ticket feel about politics or anything else. Of course, rich people and Broadway actors don't care much about the feelings of underemployed rednecks in the South or Midwest either. Democrats have basically told their traditional base that they no longer need or even want them and they have no place else to go. Turns out they were wrong. So...who should be listening?

quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Speech is (as of this writing) free in this country. The Tiny Fingered One's complaints about how the media is unfair to him (today on NPR a mention of his complaint that NBC keeps on using a stock photo of him that shows his double chins) are folly.

You aren't Trump's target audience either. Nearly everybody who voted for Trump or considered voting for Trump believes that the left cares only about free speech for themselves and have no problem shaming and attempting to destroy anybody who says something they find offensive. Trump isn't going to stop the media or anybody else from talking. Why would he? The media got him elected. No, Trump wants everybody who voted for him or even considered voting for him to take the major networks and newspapers every bit as seriously as you take Fox News and Rush Limbaugh. Yes, I know what Trump said about libel laws. Is it your contention that the UK doesn't have freedom of speech or freedom of the press? Some shipmates from the UK sure do complain about the biased right wing press. Do they need more freedom?

quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
(Although I am tell those chins are not exactly minute. Enquiring minds want to know, Mr. Prez -- when are you having a face-lift? Will Pence be in charge while you're under anesthesia?)

So much for going high when he goes low. By the way, Trump wants you to go low. He's counting on you going low. Heck, Trump and his people are pleased as pie at how things are going.

quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is the job of the president to take the hit and smile. God alone only knows that Obama did. Suck it up, buttercup.

And what if he doesn't? He loses all his support in Washington D.C., New York City, and California? I bet he's going to risk it.

[ 22. November 2016, 15:51: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Trump voters couldn't care less how Broadway actors and a crowd of people who can afford to pay $800 for a ticket feel about politics or anything else. Of course, rich people and Broadway actors don't care much about the feelings of underemployed rednecks in the South or Midwest either. Democrats have basically told their traditional base that they no longer need or even want them and they have no place else to go.

Didn't the exit polls make it clear that Hillary won the vote under 50k per year income handsomely?

And wasn't Mike Pence in the audience paying $800 for his ticket?

Making this rich vs poor seems pretty screwed up.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women!

Oh...I missed this.

Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
How far do we carry this though? It's okay to humiliate people in the audience if the stars don't like them? Think they're not nice? Isn't this blaming the victim? Where is the line drawn? Would it be okay to beat Pence up because he's a bigot?

Obviously it wouldn't be OK to beat him up. I really don't see the VP as a victim. To be honest I think round-audience booing is hopeless and not very nice and I wouldn't do it. Delivering a well-written and non-abusive message about very well justified concerns in a dignified manner is perfectly on. In fact that is an exercise in freedom of speech. Freedom of speech doesn't mean everyone in the audience gets a microphone. It means everyone has an opportunity to put together a play and deliver the message they want to.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?

This false moral equivalence to justify a guy who boasts about sexual assault and boasts about his rating of women isn't seemly.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.

It's not a precedent when the ugliness has already happened, it is a response. It's a loosing of the dogs of a rhetorical war. Once such a beast is unleashed, it is hard for one side to restrain from any form like tactic. Though I haven't heard the group against the elected people mock disabled people, get accused of sexual assault, suggest their opponents be jailed, want to ban a religion, and anything comparable. The attempts to normalize the people who were elected doesn't seem reasonable from the outside when they so clear aren't.

The idea that the theatre should apologise is unbalance I think when the candidate might need to apologise quite broadly to many. Because these elected people are now elected doesn't mean they automagically deserve and command respect when they have been so evil previously.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Trump voters couldn't care less how Broadway actors and a crowd of people who can afford to pay $800 for a ticket feel about politics or anything else. Of course, rich people and Broadway actors don't care much about the feelings of underemployed rednecks in the South or Midwest either. Democrats have basically told their traditional base that they no longer need or even want them and they have no place else to go.

Didn't the exit polls make it clear that Hillary won the vote under 50k per year income handsomely?

And wasn't Mike Pence in the audience paying $800 for his ticket?

Making this rich vs poor seems pretty screwed up.

Yes, the Democrats can reliably count on minorities who make under $50,000 to vote for them in large numbers but not always enough to make up for the poor whites that voted for Trump. Plus, those were the same polls that led the media to predict Hillary winning in a landslide. It isn't so much about rich and poor. It's about elite and non-elite. As long as that's the dichotomy, Democrats are playing Trump's game. Democrats need to make it about rich versus poor. Doing that will require abandoning identity politics. And they aren't willing to do that as of yet. So, Republicans will continue to have home field advantage and Democrats will struggle to regain power. Republicans will probably take the white working class for granted and pander to their wealthy donors leaving Democrats the possibility of returning to power in 2020. Of course, continuing to demonize Trump voters as all manner of phobists will give Republicans more cover to please their donors. Both parties are run by idiots and that's why Trump will be president.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yes, the Democrats can reliably count on minorities who make under $50,000 to vote for them in large numbers but not always enough to make up for the poor whites that voted for Trump.

But on this occasion the exit polls showed that overall those earning <50k voted for Hillary. Not just minorities earning <50k.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?

This false moral equivalence to justify a guy who boasts about sexual assault and boasts about his rating of women isn't seemly.
I will give you that the religious right are hypocrites for supporting Trump after calling out Clinton. Problem is all the people calling out Trump gave Clinton a pass. So, in calling out Trump after giving Clinton a pass, they become hypocrites. So...everybody is a hypocrite. Would four more years of George H.W. Bush have been so bad? Democrats have sacrificed a lot for the Clintons. As to Hollywood and treatment of women, does the phrase casting couch mean anything to you?
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yes, the Democrats can reliably count on minorities who make under $50,000 to vote for them in large numbers but not always enough to make up for the poor whites that voted for Trump.

But on this occasion the exit polls showed that overall those earning <50k voted for Hillary. Not just minorities earning 50k.
So? Democrats need to win more of the white working class. Well, actually, the Democrats could have offset that with more of the Latino vote. Latinos voted for Trump at a higher percentage than they voted for Romney. I'm guessing a large percentage of Latino Trump voters were Cuban and lived in Florida.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
The democrats needed to win more of everybody. So? Well the so is that the Hamilton thing seemed to be cast as a rich vs poor, I pointed out that Clinton won among the poor, I thought you were implying only among the minority poor so I corrected that.

I thought B Clinton was a sleaze bag for what he did and he went on to lie about it. I thought he should have resigned at that point. I don't see moral equivalence though between that and voting in a guy who brags about sexual assault.

So Hillary had a husband who was guilty of sexual harassment at work. And supporters from an industry with a bad record on treatment of women.

Trump bragged about sexual assault.

One is guilty by association the other is actually personally guilty by their own admission.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women!

Oh...I missed this.

Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?

It is clearly impossible to demand that a political party overthrow the entire structure of sexism in the entertainment industry. That's going to be the work of many hands over years. However, Trump is but one man, and he was egregious, calling a woman fat and forcing her to exercise in front of the cameras. Google 'Trump beauty queen' and read about it -- it was ugly. And his oppression is not hidden -- he has boasted of it -- you can see it on tape. He has boasted of going into dressing rooms of teen (underaged) contestants and ogling them while they dress. This is not institutional. It is individual, and so may be addressed by the one man.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
I don't we view everybody who makes over $50,000 as rich. I make over $50,000 and I can't afford a ticket to Hamilton. Besides, Hillary also did well among college students who are unemployed. In other words, that statistic doesn't say much of anything about the Democrats appeal to working class. The electoral map that shows blue collar areas that had voted Democrat for decades turning red says far more about the problem Democrats have with the working class.

Sorry, I'm still not buying Trump being worse than Clinton.

Trump bragged that because he was rich and famous women were more sexually available to him. A quote often attributed to Kissinger is that power is the best aphrodisiac. Now, outside of the Kennedy family, nobody, and I mean nobody, takes advantage of that fact more than Bill Clinton. Yes, Clinton bragged about it. When Clinton confidant, Vernon Jordan was asked what he and the president talked about he said...well...something very similar to what Trump said.

Democrats and many in the media went out of their way to excuse Bill Clinton and downplay what he did. They didn't not hesitate to slut shame all of the women who came forward to accuse Bill Clinton. James Carville said if you drag a dollar bill through a trailer park you never know what you will get. He hasn't had problems finding work since then.

quote:
originally posted by mdijon:
So Hillary had a husband who was guilty of sexual harassment at work. And supporters from an industry with a bad record on treatment of women.

Guilt by association? Hillary was worried about "bimbo eruptions" and aided in discrediting every woman who came forward. She isn't guilty by association. She is his accomplice. As to her supporters, the industry is the entertainment industry and they provide the Clintons with a ton of money. To then expect those who aren't already supporting her to believe she and her supporters within the entertainment industry really care about other women or are shocked by Trump's behavior is a bit much.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is clearly impossible to demand that a political party overthrow the entire structure of sexism in the entertainment industry.

Yeah, the entertainment industry would stop giving them money then, huh? [Killing me]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Originally posted by Beeswax Alter:
quote:
The electoral map that shows blue collar areas that had voted Democrat for decades turning red says far more about the problem Democrats have with the working class.
It is a weird problem. Because the blue collar Republican voters are voting against their own financial interests. What some blue collar voters object to with the Democrats is about the promotion of the freedom of others.
How are the Democrats supposed to balance that?
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
No, the blue collar workers voted for a candidate running on a platform that moderate to liberal Democrats were running on when blue collar workers reliably voted for them in every election. Democrats are in a bit of a pickle. Middle and working class white people could start voting as a block now. They have one of two options. One, drop the identity politics and out populist Trump which will cut into their support from minorities. Two, buy off the poor and middle class by drastically raising taxes and establishing a welfare state that makes the Swedes jealous. All the cool rich people will then join the Koch Brothers and Peter Thiel in voting for and more importantly financing Republicans. Option three is to wait for the
Republicans to take the working class for granted and get thrown out of office. Odds are they will. However, if Trump and the Republicans play his first two years in office right, the Democrats could be in the wilderness for a long, long time.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, the blue collar workers voted for a candidate running on a platform that moderate to liberal Democrats were running on when blue collar workers reliably voted for them in every election.

No they didn't. Trump's "platform" was largely racist and xenophobic sound bytes with pandering to religious conservatives. One of the few actually defined planks of his platform was his economic policy which favours the rich.
If you could define his platform, it would be fear-based.
Identity politics. A dogwhistle for repeal right for minority groups.
Not saying all Trump supporters are racist. But many of those that are not fear that preference is given to minorities and fear for their own jobs. This isn't a practical reality, but it is a perception the Republicans have played on for years. Trump is less a result of Democratic missteps than it is a fruition of Republican strategy. Though not, perhaps, exactly as they intended.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.

It's not a precedent when the ugliness has already happened, it is a response. It's a loosing of the dogs of a rhetorical war. Once such a beast is unleashed, it is hard for one side to restrain from any form like tactic. Though I haven't heard the group against the elected people mock disabled people, get accused of sexual assault, suggest their opponents be jailed, want to ban a religion, and anything comparable. The attempts to normalize the people who were elected doesn't seem reasonable from the outside when they so clear aren't.

The idea that the theatre should apologise is unbalance I think when the candidate might need to apologise quite broadly to many. Because these elected people are now elected doesn't mean they automagically deserve and command respect when they have been so evil previously.

I don't think the theatre should apologize. I think Pence shouldn't have been called out in this venue in the first place, but I would never suggest an apology was in order.

I can't think of anytime when Obama attended a play or concert and had someone from the stage question his policy and advise him on what they hoped he would do. Nor any other president or VP that I know of, ever. It is certainly not politics as usual, because politics are not usually played out from the stage to an individual in the audience.

I don't think it's a matter of "respect," deserved or otherwise. No one suggested he stand for applause. I just think he should have been left alone like everyone else in the audience.

*Pence was in the audience, not Trump. He was in no way there as a representative of Trump.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
OK...keep telling yourself that voters who voted for Obama twice voted for Trump because they are all stupid racist xenophobes. Trump would like nothing better than for Democrats to double down on the same strategy that made his election possible. How many judges do you want Republicans to appoint before the Democrats get back in power? Think you will get any David Souters or even Anthony Kennedys this time?
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
OK...keep telling yourself that voters who voted for Obama twice voted for Trump because they are all stupid racist xenophobes.

So be careful with this argument; we just do not know to what extent the 'swing' seen was a result of voters who voted for Obama voting for Trump vs voters who voted for Obama staying at home and a different set of voters being energised into going to the polling stations and voting for Trump.

Ironically I actually agree on your wider point; anti-racism is best dog-whistled when campaigning - better to build a coalition of people who are attracted to a anti-racist set of policies than wasting energy accusing the opposition of racism. [*]

[*] which is completely different from saying that racism should be ignored.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
An issue that has not been addressed so much is how we now are going to get a Republican Congress. This is not going to be pretty.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
An issue that has not been addressed so much is how we now are going to get a Republican Congress. This is not going to be pretty.

Oh believe me, those of us in the blue states are discussing it. A lot.

And thinking ahead to '18...
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.

It's not a precedent when the ugliness has already happened, it is a response. It's a loosing of the dogs of a rhetorical war. Once such a beast is unleashed, it is hard for one side to restrain from any form like tactic. Though I haven't heard the group against the elected people mock disabled people, get accused of sexual assault, suggest their opponents be jailed, want to ban a religion, and anything comparable. The attempts to normalize the people who were elected doesn't seem reasonable from the outside when they so clear aren't.

The idea that the theatre should apologise is unbalance I think when the candidate might need to apologise quite broadly to many. Because these elected people are now elected doesn't mean they automagically deserve and command respect when they have been so evil previously.

I don't think the theatre should apologize. I think Pence shouldn't have been called out in this venue in the first place, but I would never suggest an apology was in order.

I can't think of anytime when Obama attended a play or concert and had someone from the stage question his policy and advise him on what they hoped he would do. Nor any other president or VP that I know of, ever. It is certainly not politics as usual, because politics are not usually played out from the stage to an individual in the audience.

I don't think it's a matter of "respect," deserved or otherwise. No one suggested he stand for applause. I just think he should have been left alone like everyone else in the audience.

*Pence was in the audience, not Trump. He was in no way there as a representative of Trump.

Although I think Pence was being singled out for his own homophobic policies/statements, as opposed to being a stand-in for Trump. In terms of policy, Pence is not much different from Trump. In terms of temperament-- huge difference, as evidenced by their very differing responses to the speech. I have some sympathy for Pence-- not a lot, but some-- being caught off guard in a social setting, not expecting even the very restrained speech of the cast (much less the booing of the crowd). Yet he responded calmly and appropriately. The Donald-- with all the benefits of distance and opportunity for reflection-- not so much.

I probably wouldn't have given the speech, but I don't think they should apologize. It was an act of resistance, and that's never comfortable. But it was done with restraint and with some respect.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
And done within the style of the show, from the clip I saw--more or less in character.

The booing was probably too much, at this point--though, as I said earlier, Condi Rice went through it, too.

IMHO, the speech (with full cast) was a chance to *peacefully* get a message directly to someone in power, creatively.

When you do something like that, it's important to think first about possible consequences, have a safety net, and go in with your eyes open. I think it was basically a good thing to do. I just hope they don't suffer for it.

IIRC, Trump tried to be involved with theater, when he was young. (Maybe as a producer??) It didn't work out. I wonder if that fed into his reaction?
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Beeswax Altar

You've changed the terms of the discussion. At least so far as I am concerned. What happened in the UK over Brexit was political pandering. There was a legitimising of racist and xenophobic instincts amongst the have nots. Instead of an argument which says 'We recognise that many of you have been ignored and we will do better for you' the anger was focused against 'them'. Those who are different. 'They come here and benefit from our taxes and services. The fat cats take our jobs and sell them overseas to the cheapest sources'.

It becomes about 'them'. And that is precisely what Trump did. And in the process he legitimised the worst racist, xenophobic and misogynistic instincts out there. He mobilised deplorable instincts. Of course not all his supporters have deplorable instincts. But we saw the rallies and can be satisfied beyond contradiction that a sizeable element do. Without the deplorables, he would not have won. Without Hillary lumping them all together under the deplorable label, he also may not have won.

That being said, it is undoubtedly true that the Clinton campaign lost those key Northern States because it did not speak clearly and constructively enough to the legitimate rust bucket grievances. It allowed the debate to go 'low' so far as that was concerned, rather countering by aiming 'high'.

The crowning irony of this is that the GOP is the traditional party of free trade, low taxes and balanced budgets. The Democrats are the party of 'New Deal' investments in jobs and infrastructure and similar Keynesian type approaches.

How the hell Trump produces any kind of budget to meet the aspirations he has generated I really can't say. New Deals involve borrowing from the future you hope to generate to enable an escape from an intolerable present. But without some kind of neo-Keynesianist approach, the rust bucket states will find they have voted for a pig in a poke. If free trade kills jobs at home, protectionism kills jobs all over the world.

The end result is more fuel for the growing fires of racist and xenophobic nationalism. The genie has been let out of the bottle and we will pay a price for that which goes way beyond political party arguments.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
It seems like the President-elect has been having a bit of a think and has decided a few things.


You've just elected someone who doesn't care what he said in the election and is making up shit as he goes along.

Perhaps less frightening than the idea that he'd spend his days pandering to the neo-Nazis, but still rather worrying that the US President is going to be following whichever way the wind blows on any given day.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

[*]He thinks he might do something about Climate Change after all

Possibly. It isn't really reflected in terms of appointments though.

quote:

You've just elected someone who doesn't care what he said in the election and is making up shit as he goes along.

Or he craves the approval of the wealthy and powerful and so his views are just a reflection of whoever he met last.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
What my dream is, is that Trump will fall prey to pride and vanity. Even more overweening pride and vanity, that is to say, because it's not like those aren't already familiar to him.

He will contemplate the idea of a failed presidency, and his soul will scald. He will do good things, not because he is in any way interested in doing anything in particular, but because otherwise he will go down in history as a Loser President, down there with Millard Fillmore.

To peel off the name Obamacare and slap on a new label Trumpcare would be perfectly fine, as long as it is the same or improved underneath. To put a plaque onto every single renovated bridge and rebuilt highway with his name on it, bliss. To save Medicare and Medicaid so that old people cheer his name, he would adore it. To go to war with random nations (Mexico? Britain? Finland?) would make him wince -- what, be another crummy little Bush Jr? Ew. Poverty must be combated, because otherwise how will they love me?

He wants to be admired and adored. If he would only see the path to that state!
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He wants to be admired and adored. If he would only see the path to that state!

But he primarily wants to be admired and adored by the people directly in front of him at any given moment. Then when he's in front of other people, he wants to be admired and adored by them.

That's why it's so horrific that he has packed his cabinet with white supremacists and big business lackeys and other people whose wants and desires are inimical to the good of our nation and its people. Those are the people he will be "playing to" most of the time. And they're smart enough to play him like a violin by preying on his insecurities.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If free trade kills jobs at home, protectionism kills jobs all over the world.

If you give me a choice between my job being killed or six jobs in the rest of the world being killed, take a wild guess which one I'll vote for.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He wants to be admired and adored. If he would only see the path to that state!

But he primarily wants to be admired and adored by the people directly in front of him at any given moment. Then when he's in front of other people, he wants to be admired and adored by them.

That's why it's so horrific that he has packed his cabinet with white supremacists and big business lackeys and other people whose wants and desires are inimical to the good of our nation and its people. Those are the people he will be "playing to" most of the time. And they're smart enough to play him like a violin by preying on his insecurities.

I have a powerful imagination. And so I can see the solution to this. It lies in the fact that Sasha Obama has not yet graduated from high school. This has forced her parents to stay in DC for at least a while. And that means that Barack Obama will be in town to be consulted: the only man who knows the job.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If free trade kills jobs at home, protectionism kills jobs all over the world.

If you give me a choice between my job being killed or six jobs in the rest of the world being killed, take a wild guess which one I'll vote for.
I thought that in the end, protectionism will kill jobs at home and abroad. There is however, a brilliant solution to this, and a traditional one, indeed a hallowed one: war.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is why so many women I know are afraid. And why a Women's March on Washington spontaneously generated, independent of things like funding or permits.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I think what we will see is a confused mix of Brenda's dream and mousethief's nightmare, combined with plenty of warmongering.

Ho hum. The old curse has come true 'May you live in interesting times'.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Boogie--

Yes, I'm search of whoever uttered that curse.
[Mad]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If free trade kills jobs at home, protectionism kills jobs all over the world.

If you give me a choice between my job being killed or six jobs in the rest of the world being killed, take a wild guess which one I'll vote for.
All over the world includes at home.

Unless you go "North Korean".

Of course, there are half way houses. Governments may act to protect strategic interests, invoke penalty arrangements for covert protectionism by others. Mostly what they can do is aid the transition.

But in general trying to stop the tide of free trade is like imitating King Canute (as I said earlier). All citizens need to do is examine the labels on their clothes, their hi-tech goods, white goods, cars etc.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
The TransPacific Partnership looks dead, a real slap in the face for the Aust Govt which had been trying hard to sell the treaty here. There was a lot of opposition founded upon such matters as increased costs of pharmaceuticals, the ability of US companies to force their will on the Aust government and so forth. So some good from a Trump victory.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Is it known to what extent free trade is responsible for the economic problems of the rust-belt? A report I read recently suggested that automation was a factor accounting for 85 per cent of the job losses. Protectionism may slow down job losses but discourage innovation and increase prices. More importantly, what do Trump and the Republican Congress think about this, and what will they do?
 
Posted by Gillmck (# 12870) on :
 
Thanks for all of this ... For more ethical dissection of the US Election, there's a discussion of the result, implications, the role of US evangelicals, that sort of thing here: http://www.smallvoice.org.uk/podcast-extra-the-last-trump/

P.S. I have a vested interest as part of the the smallVOICE podcast production team, but we keep being nominated for awards, so other people think it's quite good too!
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gillmck:
Thanks for all of this ... For more ethical dissection of the US Election, there's a discussion of the result, implications, the role of US evangelicals, that sort of thing here: http://www.smallvoice.org.uk/podcast-extra-the-last-trump/

I wanted to hate this, but it is actually pretty good. If you could bring some of the ideas and comments from your podcast here to discuss rather than a hit-and-run link, that'd be much more helpful.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
A sliver of hope?


"Curiosity about Wisconsin has centred on apparently disproportionate wins that were racked up by Trump in counties using electronic voting compared with those that used only paper ballots.

Use of the voting machines that are in operation in some Wisconsin counties has been banned in other states, including California, after security analysts repeatedly showed how easily they could be hacked into."
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
On a rather whimsical note...

...the idea of our beloved Nigel Kipper Garbage emigrating to the US of A (as if you poor folk haven't enough to put up with) rather reminded me of the bit in Lord of the Rings where the weaselly traitor Wormtongue (Garbage) is condemned to be immured in the Tower of Orthanc (Trump Tower?) with the would-be Dark Lord Saruman (The Orange One)...

[Paranoid]

IJ
 
Posted by Gillmck (# 12870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Gillmck:
Thanks for all of this ... For more ethical dissection of the US Election, there's a discussion of the result, implications, the role of US evangelicals, that sort of thing here: http://www.smallvoice.org.uk/podcast-extra-the-last-trump/

I wanted to hate this, but it is actually pretty good. If you could bring some of the ideas and comments from your podcast here to discuss rather than a hit-and-run link, that'd be much more helpful.
Thanks Mr Cheesy - and point taken!
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Trump would not have had my vote had I been an American,

But...........

Clinton: smug, self-satisfied, self-righteous, sense of entitlement. Candidate of Wall Street, candidate of the Democratic and Republican elite consensus, candidate with no fire in her belly, candidate with no dragons to slay, candidate without charisma, candidate for all America seeking a miserly 269+1. Feminist without sisters, mother without sons, perpetually buttoned up in a botoxed (?) cocoon.

Let's face it, shipmates, she missed an open goal. She bombed!
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Feminist without sisters? You need to clean your glasses. Your need for tidy parallelisms has dragged you into untruth.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
candidate for all America seeking a miserly 269+1. Feminist without sisters, mother without sons, perpetually buttoned up in a botoxed (?) cocoon.

Kwesi, you made all of one post on the election thread about 2 years ago; faced with the grotesque that is President-elect Donald Trump, this is what you're moved to write?

WTF?

"seeking a miserly 269+1" As if she were carefully trying to avoid winning by more than the barest minimum.

"mother without sons?" Yes, how dare she consider herself a valid candidate - a female whose claim to motherhood consists only of a solitary daughter!

"botoxed (?)" What's with the question mark? You don't know, but can't miss the opportunity to take a swipe at her appearance?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Brenda--

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He will do good things, not because he is in any way interested in doing anything in particular, but because otherwise he will go down in history as a Loser President, down there with Millard Fillmore.

AIUI, Fillmore is known for putting the first bathtub in the White House. [Smile]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
All right, let's have something fun. Here is the Amazon listing for a Trump Christmas ornament. Go down and read the comments. There must be thousands of them, all of them LOL funny. This is as good as the Binder Full of Women reviews.
 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Brenda [Overused]
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Brenda has some sort of magical Trump-shit detector thing going on. I love that link! Amazon just wants to seriously sell the ornament, but humans have turned it into a free form parody. I have hope. [Smile]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
In those dear dead days beyond recall, when Mitt Romney boasted of his binders full of women, a cheap ordinary 3-ring binder on Amazon was designated as That Binder. The reviews must have numbered in the thousands, page after page of complaints about how it was not pink, how women did not have three-hole punches, etc. etc. You could laugh until you fell off your desk chair.

Pure crowd-sourced humor. It is delightful to see that some traditions do not die.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
there are also apparently Trump diapers and menstrual pads.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Dave W
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
candidate for all America seeking a miserly 269+1. Feminist without sisters, mother without sons, perpetually buttoned up in a botoxed (?) cocoon.

Kwesi, you made all of one post on the election thread about 2 years ago; faced with the grotesque that is President-elect Donald Trump, this is what you're moved to write?

WTF?

"seeking a miserly 269+1" As if she were carefully trying to avoid winning by more than the barest minimum.

"mother without sons?" Yes, how dare she consider herself a valid candidate - a female whose claim to motherhood consists only of a solitary daughter!

"botoxed (?)" What's with the question mark? You don't know, but can't miss the opportunity to take a swipe at her appearance?

269+1. The office which Hilary Clinton was seeking was that of President of the United States, to represent all Americans. That vision seemed absent from campaign tactics aimed to mobilise identified gender and ethnic categories to achieve narrowly what was necessary to win. Her reference to “deplorables" to described supporters of Trump betrayed the mindset, just as Romney indicated the Republicans could forget 47 percent of the electorate when he ran against Obama. Candidates, of course, are aware of the importance of sectional difference and the importance of core supporters, but there needs to be a vision for all. Harry Truman, Lyndon Johnson, Ronald Reagan Bill Clinton, were happy warriors who loved America and its people. The trick is to have a campaign focus that stretches beyond core support and offers a vision, however vacuous (“Morning in America”, “Shining City..” “We can do it,... and all that) was remarkably absent from the Democrats’ appeal in 2016. Sectional appeals, the politics of tactics, are lost without a generally optimist, hopeful, and inclusive appeal. That should not have been difficult in 2016 for Clinton against an offensive and divisive Trump, but even he saw things getting better for everyone (even a beautiful wall), once America united behind “getting our country back.”

My further comments are specifics on my general point.

“Mother without sons.” I’m not criticising Hilary for not having given birth to a son, but she seemed aware that a large number of women have sons for whom they have aspirations. She talked about mothers having daughters who might become President etc., but not about the possibilities for sons whose disadvantages of social background, particulary in the black community, were far greater than the glass barrier she was assaulting.


“Feminist without sisters.” Hilary campaigned hard to attract the female vote, emphasising the misogyny of the egregious Trump and her desire to become the first female president. Not only was this unlikely to appeal to male voters, who might have concluded they were not part of the script, but she failed to enthuse young women and was less attractive to female white voters than her macho opponent.

“Botoxed (?)”. This was not intended as a reflection on Hilary’s appearance in a sexist sense, and is more aptly applied to John Kerry in a cosmetic context. Rather I was reflecting more on her literally buttoned-up appearance, and the general lack of spontaneity in her expressions and uncertain rapport on the stump. Meeting the people seemed difficult for her. Compare her, for example, with Bill Clinton and predecessors such as Harry Truman and Ronald Reagan, and even Donald Trump whose outrageous performances were undertaken with relish and received with popular enthusiasm.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
So now there is a recount in Wisconsin, and potentially recounts in 2 other states. Should The Donald be worried? After all, we already know(ish) that he polled 2 million fewer votes than Hillary.

Does the system need an overhaul?
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
This is like Remainers trying to challenge the outcome of the Brexit referendum, except with any chance of succeeding in overturning the result an order of magnitude or two smaller.

All it is likely to do is make the transition more troubled and bitter.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Dave W
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
candidate for all America seeking a miserly 269+1. Feminist without sisters, mother without sons, perpetually buttoned up in a botoxed (?) cocoon.

Kwesi, you made all of one post on the election thread about 2 years ago; faced with the grotesque that is President-elect Donald Trump, this is what you're moved to write?

WTF?

"seeking a miserly 269+1" As if she were carefully trying to avoid winning by more than the barest minimum.

"mother without sons?" Yes, how dare she consider herself a valid candidate - a female whose claim to motherhood consists only of a solitary daughter!

"botoxed (?)" What's with the question mark? You don't know, but can't miss the opportunity to take a swipe at her appearance?

269+1. The office which Hilary Clinton was seeking was that of President of the United States, to represent all Americans. That vision seemed absent from campaign tactics aimed to mobilise identified gender and ethnic categories to achieve narrowly what was necessary to win. Her reference to “deplorables" to described supporters of Trump betrayed the mindset, just as Romney indicated the Republicans could forget 47 percent of the electorate when he ran against Obama. Candidates, of course, are aware of the importance of sectional difference and the importance of core supporters, but there needs to be a vision for all. Harry Truman, Lyndon Johnson, Ronald Reagan Bill Clinton, were happy warriors who loved America and its people. The trick is to have a campaign focus that stretches beyond core support and offers a vision, however vacuous (“Morning in America”, “Shining City..” “We can do it,... and all that) was remarkably absent from the Democrats’ appeal in 2016.
I don't think your description of her campaign message is even remotely close to the content of her typical stump speech.
quote:
Sectional appeals, the politics of tactics, are lost without a generally optimist, hopeful, and inclusive appeal. That should not have been difficult in 2016 for Clinton against an offensive and divisive Trump, but even he saw things getting better for everyone (even a beautiful wall), once America united behind “getting our country back.”

For everyone? Ok, evidently you weren't paying any attention to the Trump campaign either. Once again - Donald Trump is standing right in front of you, big as life and twice as ugly, and yet somehow you think Clinton is the one who deserves criticism for not being an inclusive happy warrior?
quote:
“Mother without sons.” I’m not criticising Hilary for not having given birth to a son, but she seemed aware that a large number of women have sons for whom they have aspirations. She talked about mothers having daughters who might become President etc., but not about the possibilities for sons whose disadvantages of social background, particulary in the black community, were far greater than the glass barrier she was assaulting.

Again, WTF? (See previous link for what she actually talked about.) The idea that this criticism (weak as it is, in my opinion) could be expressed as "mother without sons" is still repellent to me.
quote:
“Botoxed (?)”. This was not intended as a reflection on Hilary’s appearance in a sexist sense, and is more aptly applied to John Kerry in a cosmetic context. Rather I was reflecting more on her literally buttoned-up appearance, and the general lack of spontaneity in her expressions and uncertain rapport on the stump. Meeting the people seemed difficult for her. Compare her, for example, with Bill Clinton and predecessors such as Harry Truman and Ronald Reagan, and even Donald Trump whose outrageous performances were undertaken with relish and received with popular enthusiasm.

"You can say what you want about that Hitler fellow, but he sure knows how to get a crowd excited!"

It's hardly news that Clinton isn't a charismatic speaker - but the implication that this might be due to the use of a chemical widely derided as an expression of female vanity is, once again, your infelicitous choice of expression.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This is like Remainers trying to challenge the outcome of the Brexit referendum, except with any chance of succeeding in overturning the result an order of magnitude or two smaller.

All it is likely to do is make the transition more troubled and bitter.

Except it's not the Remainers who are instigating it. Jill Stein didn't lose the election, Hillary did.
 
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
I think this short speach says a great deal about how many people are feeling now.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Except it's not the Remainers who are instigating it. Jill Stein didn't lose the election, Hillary did.

The Clinton campaign has signed up to the effort.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Except it's not the Remainers who are instigating it. Jill Stein didn't lose the election, Hillary did.

The Clinton campaign has signed up to the effort.
It has now, yes, but had not when you made your comment.

[ 27. November 2016, 03:20: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I saw a headline that some computer experts asked Hillary to consider challenging the election results. Didn't read further.
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
In my mind, there are four states that stand out for closer examination: Wisconsin; Michigan; Pennsylvania

The total vote difference of these combined states is 107,000 more for Trump. Wisconsin has a difference of 27,000. Michigan is actually still counting its votes, but their is a 10,000 vote lead for Trump. Pennsylvania has less than a 75,000 vote difference. Yet, the national tally shows Clinton is currently ahead by 2 mil votes.

Wisconsin turned away 300,000 voters for not having proper ID. That is huge.

Pennsylvania has no paper trail to cross check the voting machines. But the finally tally did not match what the exit polls were saying, so computer experts are wondering about the anomaly.

If, for some reason Clinton can win the recount in these three states she would become the president elect.

But a larger question remains about Trumps large business holdings across the world. Some people feel if he does not put his assets in a blind trust he will be running up against the foreign gifts clause which says:

quote:
Article I, Section 9, Clause 8: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.
Deal of it is, I have never seen such a contested election result.

It is not over yet and probably will not be over for a very long time (even though the Orange One may hold the office for four years, if he is lucky)
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So now there is a recount in Wisconsin, and potentially recounts in 2 other states. Should The Donald be worried? After all, we already know(ish) that he polled 2 million fewer votes than Hillary.

Does the system need an overhaul?

I can throw peanuts from another country here, because that's how I roll.

An overhaul may happen, but it seems to me there's a deliberate design here. This is the "United States" we are talking about, and the President is elected by the states in that union, not by popular vote. That may be something people want to change, but any such change may change the nature of State identity and how the states interrelate. This could be an improvement, but it could undermine state identity. And as an outsider, something in me finds it kinda cool how Americans tend to introduce themselves by state, like there's a pride in that.

And the union of diverse states, for all its flaws, has merit. IMHO
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Kwesi--

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Trump would not have had my vote had I been an American,

But...........

Clinton: smug, self-satisfied, self-righteous, sense of entitlement. Candidate of Wall Street, candidate of the Democratic and Republican elite consensus, candidate with no fire in her belly, candidate with no dragons to slay, candidate without charisma, candidate for all America seeking a miserly 269+1. Feminist without sisters, mother without sons, perpetually buttoned up in a botoxed (?) cocoon.

Let's face it, shipmates, she missed an open goal. She bombed!

I know you gave explanations down thread. But, frankly, you still said all these extremely misogynistic, hateful things.
[Mad]

Your words here put your explanation in doubt, IMHO. And you said you wouldn't vote for Trump, but you're talking like him.

So...is what you said above your personal opinion? Is it somehow cultural? Or are you purposely posting rude and obnoxious comments?

Kwesi, do you get that this situation *MATTERS* to Americans? It affects other people, too--but we Americans and American Shipmates have to live with this, up close and personal, every moment.

Are you familiar with Trevor Noah? He's a bi-racial talk show host and comedian from South Africa. He took over the American "Daily Show" from Jon Stewart. He said, quite seriously, that Trump makes him think of African despots.

I proudly, enthusiastically, and thoughtfully voted for Hillary--as did many other people. (She *did* win the popular vote, you know, as of Nov. 8th. And it's *still* being counted.) But many other people voted for her to keep Trump out.

If you had a very difficult and dangerous election in your country, between a potential despot and someone who drew mixed opinions, would you want Americans--esp. American Shipmates--throwing around insults about the 2nd candidate, and how awful and ugly they are?
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Pennsylvania has no paper trail to cross check the voting machines. But the finally tally did not match what the exit polls were saying, so computer experts are wondering about the anomaly.

Can I ask for a source for that? The reasons I have seen put forward for recount was the fact that counties that used electonic voting returned substantially different proportions from those that used paper and scanner, introducing the possibility of hacking. The word Russians was thrown in there because why not. I'd think that the electronic booths would be well tested and protected from hacking (hacking an email account is one thing, a specifically designed federal election pooling booth another - unless the design was shonky.)

Since I asked you for a link regarding the exit polls, it only seems fair to link my source showing the county differences as a reason for recount.

Of course the other explanation for the variation in outcome is that the different technologies used in different counties in part reflects different demographics.

quote:
It is not over yet and probably will not be over for a very long time (even though the Orange One may hold the office for four years, if he is lucky)
My worry is that an overturned result from this process could be even more inflammatory and divisive than a Trump presidency. Which is odd, as my thinking thus far throughout this campaign/election has been naive and optimistic to the extreme.

[ 27. November 2016, 05:14: Message edited by: Goldfish Stew ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re electronic voting, etc.:

Check out Black Box Voting.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
My worry is that an overturned result from this process could be even more inflammatory and divisive than a Trump presidency. Which is odd, as my thinking thus far throughout this campaign/election has been naive and optimistic to the extreme.

Yes, I could see some redneck 'anti establishment' gun toting idiots feeling the need to take up arms [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Inclined to think there may have been more danger of that if trump had lost the 8th.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I know you gave explanations down thread. But, frankly, you still said all these extremely misogynistic, hateful things.
[Mad]

Your words here put your explanation in doubt, IMHO. And you said you wouldn't vote for Trump, but you're talking like him.

I am reminded of Sam in The Scouring of the Shire, speaking about fellow-hobbits: "All right, all right! That's quite enough. I don't want to hear no more. No welcome, no beer, no smoke, and a lot of rules and orc-talk instead."
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Kwesi, do you get that this situation *MATTERS* to Americans?

It matters to the world. America is not a tiny nation tucked away where abuses are mostly internal. Whether any like it or not, the rest of the world is affected.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
I don’t think my remarks have been fully understood. True, they were deliberately couched in a provocative manner, but i would argue they are substantially true.

My beef is that the defeat of the Democrats in the 2016 respecting the Presidency and both houses of Congress rests to a significant extent on the Democrat campaign leadership (mostly blokes, I assume) and the unsuitability of the candidate at the top of the ticket. Of course it matters that Trump thus far has proved himself an utterly unsuitable person to lead the United States both at home and abroad. If I were an American I would be embarrassed by both his success in the primaries and in the election proper, especially if I were a Republican. Clearly, I don’t have to argue that with the contributors to this thread. My irritation, anger, if you like, is that the Democratic leadership has failed to protect both America and its friends and foes overseas from such a man. Trump’s unsuitability was so egregiously demonstrated by the candidate himself that it is a disgrace that his opponents with all their money and organisation were unable to defeat him. Given that he was so bad what does it tell us about Hilary Clinton? She and her advisors have let us down badly, and that is why they are in the dock.

As to Trump being like an African dictator I think the contexts and political circumstances between the USA and African states are too diverse for a useful comparison to be made . He is more like Berlusconi, who used his premiership of Italy to keep himself out of prison and advance his media interests. Fortunately, one believes the administrative, political and legal institutions of the USA will prove too strong to bow to any attempt by Trump to impose his personals rule by intimidation and bribery.

Trump may turn out to be a surprisingly good president, my guess his leadership will lack focus and end in frustration, or even impeachment if he messes up his roles of president and businessman. For what it’s worth, the leader i most admire in the modern world is Angela Merkel.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
My irritation, anger, if you like, is that the Democratic leadership has failed to protect both America and its friends and foes overseas from such a man.

This is not complete. Trump is also the result of Republican fear-mongering and rabid anti-Obama rhetoric. The media have also played this card and gave Trump free campaign commercials.

quote:

Trump’s unsuitability was so egregiously demonstrated by the candidate himself that it is a disgrace that his opponents with all their money and organisation were unable to defeat him. Given that he was so bad what does it tell us about Hilary Clinton?

Clinton is perceived to be part of the Establishment that many Americans are tired of. She did not distance herself from this and she has little telepresence.

She and her advisors have let us down badly, and that is why they are in the dock.
quote:

As to Trump being like an African dictator I think the contexts and political circumstances between the USA and African states are too diverse for a useful comparison to be made . He is more like Berlusconi, who used his premiership of Italy to keep himself out of prison and advance his media interests.

ISTM, he is a combination and it is only circumstance that pushes him to the milder comparison.
quote:

Trump may turn out to be a surprisingly good president,

I do not think this is possible. He will either fall in line with the Republican agenda or they will fight him.
That is aside from the fact that he has not the temperament for the office.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
On November 8, 50% of USA citizens didn't care enough about their country to vote. On November 11, the country paid respect to those who gave their lives to save their country. Maybe if the dates had been reversed, more people might have voted.

I don't really care what the percentages would have been without Johnson, or with Sanders, or whatever, when 50% of the electorate didn't show up, even with a racist, fascist, sexist grifter on the ballot. Obviously the biggest factor in this election was irresponsibility.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
On November 8, 50% of USA citizens didn't care enough about their country to vote.

There are places people risk their lives to vote. This is disgraceful.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
lB--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Kwesi, do you get that this situation *MATTERS* to Americans?

It matters to the world. America is not a tiny nation tucked away where abuses are mostly internal. Whether any like it or not, the rest of the world is affected.
And I said as much in the next sentence. [Angel]

Kwesi said particularly vile things--on-purpose provocation, according to a more recent post. IMHO, there's a difference between saying "wow, your election seems really complicated, and so-and-so seems unqualified/dangerous, and that may affect me and my country", and saying "that so-and-so is mean and ugly and doesn't have sons".

This is an echo of the gun thread in Hell, and many Purg threads: Americans are stupid, evil, and there's no possible reason for the way they do things. If they all followed our lead, everything would be kittens and rainbows and dancing in the fields.

If we try to explain, particularly on the gun thread, we're flat-out told we're wrong. If we fight back, sometimes things calm down--then the cycle starts over again.

Off the top of my head, I don't recall other countries being treated that way here. The US may be an empire, God help us and everyone else, but we're still human beings--and Shipmates.

When we went through this around the time of the election, I and others others pointed out that weren't really being allowed to express our grief and turmoil and concern about our own country, and that non-American posters didn't seem to really care. People started apologizing, and one said many posters had assumed we'd just *know* that people were concerned for us. And things got better, for a while.

Going through this over and over, on many threads, is both tiring and profoundly disheartening.

[brick wall]
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Exit poll anomaly source http://www.inquisitr.com/3719288/exit-polls-indicate-hillary-clinton-might-have-won/
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
I don’t think my remarks have been fully understood. True, they were deliberately couched in a provocative manner, but i would argue they are substantially true.

Oh? Who were you trying to provoke, and why? What did you hope to accomplish with your weird talk of "mother without sons" and Botox?
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

But a larger question remains about Trumps large business holdings across the world. Some people feel if he does not put his assets in a blind trust he will be running up against the foreign gifts clause

Trump can't put his assets in a blind trust. His assets are a large number of buildings with "Trump" written on them in big letters. He knows where they are, and everyone else knows where they are. Nobody can credibly pretend that they think that a big "Trump" building has nothing to do with him.

It is, I think, a genuine puzzle what the "correct" behaviour is in his case. Suppose one were to ask him to sell all his holdings and place his money in an actual blind trust. One could do that, but that would leave the Trump organization owned and run by his children. And again, everyone knows that. All the same potential conflicts of interest exist.

So do you make them quit and sell up too?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I've wondered what he'd do if given the stark choice of a) keeping his assets, but giving up the presidency; and b) being president, but selling off all his assets, along with divesting the kids of any control over them.

An empire that's taken him decades to build, or "most powerful man in the world" for 4 years?
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
On November 8, 50% of USA citizens didn't care enough about their country to vote.

The Americans I know who don't vote tell me that they don't vote because they don't think voting really matters; rich and powerful people will remain rich and powerful and the rest of us will get screwed no matter what.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
On November 8, 50% of USA citizens didn't care enough about their country to vote.

The Americans I know who don't vote tell me that they don't vote because they don't think voting really matters; rich and powerful people will remain rich and powerful and the rest of us will get screwed no matter what.
By not voting they guarantee they will make no difference. It takes more than just voting, it takes being informed and getting involved. And the lack of willingness to but in that effort is what will doom democracy.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
What will doom American democracy is them being right to a certain degree.

More encouraging news about the direct aftermath of the election: women are deciding they need to run for office. I can't find the article I was reading earlier today, but here's the USA Today article.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
And, if you pair what Ruth said with people being exhausted, over-worked, financially-challenged, "the sandwiched generation" (taking care of both their parents and their own kids), etc., it makes sense.

What are the voting rates in other Shipmates' countries? IIRC, the rate for Brexit was unusual.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

What are the voting rates in other Shipmates' countries? IIRC, the rate for Brexit was unusual.

Here's a chart for post-war UK general elections. Turnout plummeted to 60% in 2001 and has recovered a bit since.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It is, I think, a genuine puzzle what the "correct" behaviour is in his case. Suppose one were to ask him to sell all his holdings and place his money in an actual blind trust. One could do that, but that would leave the Trump organization owned and run by his children. And again, everyone knows that. All the same potential conflicts of interest exist.

Policies that benefit (or potentially harm) the interests of family members, especially spouses or children, are usually considered conflicts of interest.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
By not voting they guarantee they will make no difference. It takes more than just voting, it takes being informed and getting involved. And the lack of willingness to but in that effort is what will doom democracy.

There's a standard line of "if you don't vote, you don't have a right to complain". (Often said somewhat humorously.)

That's helped nudge me, on occasion, when I felt the way Ruth described or I was borderline too sick to go out.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
According to Wikipedia, voter turnout dropped rather dramatically in Canada and then went back up again in 2015 (which is for some reason not on the chart). Even the low numbers were higher than in the US.
 
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :
 
From my Country to the North of You, we are all terribly confused and upset by messages of healing, which are fairly presidential mixed with a lot of Oooooh looka me on Twitter taking on the establishment. Great start. I love all his far-right wing billionaire friends he has placed in his cabinet and in other places of power. And the poor and disenfranchised think he is on their side? Fat chance, I say. Your rich will get richer and your middle class and poor will get poorer. Make America Great Again? A slogan for a hat would be: Let the 1% get richer!
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
Make America Unequally Fat Again.
 
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Make America Unequally Fat Again.

MAUFA - Mafia with I
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Over where I work we are trying to come up for a collective super-villain name for Tiny Fingers' cabinet. "Basket of Deplorables" is last month, and "Legion of Super Villains" is protected by trademark. We are thinking of combining them to be "Legion of Deplorables," which would give us a nice logo for their Secret HQ building. (In spite of being secret these things always have huge gaudy logos.) Next up: the costumes and combat armor.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
And the poor and disenfranchised think he is on their side? Fat chance, I say.

Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll be another Castro.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
hosting/

Hell is that way =>

/hosting
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
I think the electoral college actually discourages the vote.

For instance, in my state it has voted Democrat ever since Richard Nixon. I live in a part of the state that is heavily Republican, but it always gets out voted by the western part of the state--the city vote. Therefore, I can understand how other people may think their vote doesn't count.

Myself, I always vote and most often vote Democratic.

States with smaller populations actually have more power in the electoral college. On average, a state is awarded one electoral vote for every 565,166 people. However, Wyoming has three electoral votes and only 532,668 citizens (as of 2008 estimates). As a result each of Wyoming's three electoral votes corresponds to 177,556 people. Understood in one way, these people have 3.18 times as much clout in the Electoral College.

So, why should a citizen in California want to vote if the election is decided or or small state has more voting power than a larger state?
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I think the electoral college actually discourages the vote.

For instance, in my state it has voted Democrat ever since Richard Nixon.

Is that different from anyone that lives in a safe parliamentary constituency? You might be right that electing a President by strict popular national vote would increase turnout a bit in safe states (in 2012, swing states had a 7% higher turnout than safe states).

By contrast, I don't find a significant correlation between security of constituency and turnout in the UK.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I think the electoral college actually discourages the vote.

The electoral college also provides perverse incentives for voter suppression by giving each state the same electoral "weight" regardless of whether 99% of its eligible voters actually vote or only 1% do. Some state-level Republicans have actually used this as a deliberate strategy, making voting more onerous and bureaucratic in ways that disproportionately affects likely Democratic voters. The key there is "disproportionately". They're willing to slightly depress their own supporter's turnout if they can depress their opponent's turnout to a greater degree. This works if you're controlling the entire voting system (like in a state-level election), but would be disadvantageous in a national popular election when competing with states that do not inflict a lot of needless red tape on their voters.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Dave W
quote:
quote: Kwesi:
“Mother without sons.” I’m not criticising Hilary for not having given birth to a son, but she seemed aware that a large number of women have sons for whom they have aspirations. She talked about mothers having daughters who might become President etc., but not about the possibilities for sons whose disadvantages of social background, particulary in the black community, were far greater than the glass barrier she was assaulting.

Dave W Again, WTF? (See previous link for what she actually talked about.) The idea that this criticism (weak as it is, in my opinion) could be expressed as "mother without sons" is still repellent to me.

My reference to “Mother without sons” was not a reference to some sort of social reproductive deficiency on Hilary Clinton’s part, but to her political lacuna. She made a strong pitch on grounds of her sex and on expanding opportunities for girls. My point is that she ignored the fact that almost half the children born are male, and that women, mothers, have aspirations for their sons looking for jobs in the rust belt as well as for their daughters. Could it be that her difficulty in persuading most white women to vote for her was partly that her feminism in this regard made her blind to that fact? Where did male voters fit into the script? Similarly, Michelle Obama, who was the star performer of the campaign, talked about the future of her daughters. Fair enough, but the really disadvantaged group in the USA are black sons who seem to be shot with impunity by the police and persecuted by a racially- biased penal system that hands out severe sentences and crams them disproportionately into jails. Who spoke for them? Where was the outrage one should expect from the Democratic Party?

On a somewhat different point shipmates have rightly raised the question of turnout, but I would suggest have tended to draw the wrong conclusions. Blaming the electorate for Clinton’s defeat on the failure of Democrat sympathisers to vote is to miss the point. The real question is why so many Democrats were so unenthused, and culpability for that lies less with the electors than those responsible for the party’s campaign. It was quite clear from Sanders remarkable insurgent performance in the primaries that Hilary Clinton, awash with money and organisation, failed to inspire. Truman retained the presidency in 1948 in response to the request: ”Give ‘em Hell, Harry!” The Democrat base in particular needs to feel that the election is some sort of crusade promising better times, and especially so in the context of 2016. Unfortunately, Hilary Clinton, with her impressive curriculum vitae and establishment endorsement across the political spectrum (tacit in the case of the Republicans) offered nothing new, and temperamentally she is not a campaigner. She was not a good candidate for a contest, given the grotesque choice of the GOP, that should have been a cake-walk for the Democrats.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
My reference to “Mother without sons” was not a reference to some sort of social reproductive deficiency on Hilary Clinton’s part, but to her political lacuna. She made a strong pitch on grounds of her sex and on expanding opportunities for girls. My point is that she ignored the fact that almost half the children born are male, and that women, mothers, have aspirations for their sons looking for jobs in the rust belt as well as for their daughters. Could it be that her difficulty in persuading most white women to vote for her was partly that her feminism in this regard made her blind to that fact? Where did male voters fit into the script? Similarly, Michelle Obama, who was the star performer of the campaign, talked about the future of her daughters.

Yeah, because men have traditionally been completely left out of political discussions. [Roll Eyes] Do you have any notion of how sexist your stance is? Saying people who talk specifically about opportunities for girls don't care about boys is on a par with saying that women's history classes make it sound like men aren't historically significant.

quote:
Fair enough, but the really disadvantaged group in the USA are black sons who seem to be shot with impunity by the police and persecuted by a racially- biased penal system that hands out severe sentences and crams them disproportionately into jails. Who spoke for them? Where was the outrage one should expect from the Democratic Party?
From April 2015:
quote:
Hillary Clinton called on Wednesday for broad criminal-justice reform and renewed trust between police officers and communities, reflecting the former first lady’s evolution from supporting the policies instituted by her husband two decades ago in a period of high crime rates.

Clinton called for body cameras in every police department in the country, as well as an end to an “era of mass incarceration.” Her speech came two days after the funeral in Baltimore of Freddie Gray, a 25-year-old black man who died while in police custody, and amidst ongoing civil unrest in that city.

...

The views Clinton expressed Wednesday aren’t new. In her first presidential campaign, Clinton called it a “disgrace” that “so many more African Americans” were incarcerated than whites, and as early as 2000 decried policing practices that appeared to target African Americans and Latinos. “Let us start by recognizing that crime is down dramatically — and lives have been saved in this city — because every day, brave men and women put on a uniform and place themselves in harm’s way to protect us,” she said in 2000. “And let us also recognize that far too many people believe they are considered guilty simply because of the color of their skin.”

Hillary Clinton didn't lose because of a lack of passion. Have you looked at the popular vote? She won it by over two million votes, and they're counting absentee ballots in California, which will go to her by better than 2-1. She lost because her votes are concentrated in urban areas. And she lost because sexism is still so unbelievably ingrained in our culture that people can't even see it when it's right there in front of them.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
What Ruth said, in spades.
[Overused]
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
My reference to “Mother without sons” was not a reference to some sort of social reproductive deficiency on Hilary Clinton’s part, but to her political lacuna. She made a strong pitch on grounds of her sex and on expanding opportunities for girls. My point is that she ignored the fact that almost half the children born are male [snip]

It remains a repulsive phrase in service of a ridiculous caricature.
quote:
It was quite clear from Sanders remarkable insurgent performance in the primaries that Hilary Clinton, awash with money and organisation, failed to inspire.

It may have escaped your notice but Sanders lost the nomination by a lot of votes (though I don't suppose you ever would have faulted him for not having any daughters.)
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Dear Accusers,
What we are trying to discuss here is why the Democrats failed to win the presidency in 2016 when confronted with a GOP candidate who was eminently unsuited to the office. That discussion must in some measure raise issues concerning the appeal of the Democratic candidate. Inevitably, that must include attitudes of the candidates towards gender issues, and why, given the publicity regarding Trump’s disgusting remarks about women, that white women were more likely to vote for him than Hilary Clinton. It was also observed that young women were not particularly enthused by her candidacy. The Centre for American Women and Politics concluded:

“With such factors at play (along with more generic electoral trends, like how tough it is for either party to win a “third term”), Clinton couldn’t just lure white women to the blue team based on a sense of sisterhood. She needed to inspire them. And that’s not what Clinton does. Even those who love her acknowledge that she is a lackluster candidate. She is too private, too reserved, too cerebral. It’s a key reason that Obama, with his scant political experience, beat her in 2008.” <http://presidentialgenderwatch.org/author/kdittmar>

That judgement regarding Hilary Clinton on gender issues, to my mind, can be applied to other issues influencing the core traditional Democratic base, which you may feel I’m pressing ad nauseam. Evidently you don’t like this messenger, but electoral politics is a brutal business and harsh question however unpalatably expressed have to be posed in defeat. Don’t assume that the messenger is at all happy with the content and tone of his/her message.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
OK, what Kwesi said represents something that is messed up, but it doesn't completely conflict with RuthW's conclusion.
Men who think they are threatened by a strong female are whiny little bitches. But those whiny bitches voted. And they voted for Trump. Not because he is admirable or strong, but because he did not threaten their fragile manhood.
Clinton did not represent a real threat, but some will have perceived it that way.
I am not sure, though, what she could have said if reality wasn't enough. A black president didn't erase racial inequity, so a female president certainly wouldn't marginalise men.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Evidently you don’t like this messenger, but electoral politics is a brutal business and harsh question however unpalatably expressed have to be posed in defeat. Don’t assume that the messenger is at all happy with the content and tone of his/her message.

Whoa there, pardner, you might want to learn to ride before getting on that high horse.
Your presentation is the problem.* You could have made your point without contentious and insulting language.


*And some inaccuracies, but tone is what kicked it of.

[ 29. November 2016, 04:59: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
What lB said. [Overused]

Kwesi, your continuing posts show no acceptance of responsibility for your rudeness, no apology--just a sense of being annoyed that *we're* annoyed.

That makes this discussion more difficult.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
What lB said. [Overused]

Kwesi, your continuing posts show no acceptance of responsibility for your rudeness, no apology--just a sense of being annoyed that *we're* annoyed.

That makes this discussion more difficult.

That is why Hell exists. If you (plural) want to take Kwesi to task for his attitude, do so there.

/hosting
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Eutychus
quote:
That is why Hell exists. If you (plural) want to take Kwesi to task for his attitude, do so there.
At least if I end up there the righteous can gain solace from my endless torture!
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Ok, let me try and draw a line under this. i would defend my right to offend, but not to be offensive. If I have transgressed that line, particularly in my original post, i unreservedly apologies. (Sensitivities in these matters operate differingly from culture to culture). You will appreciate that first post was pithy in order to avoid a lengthy discourse and to shift the focus of blame from Trump and his supporters to the failings of the Democrat campaign. I regret, too, any inaccuracies, as must always be the case, misunderstandings of intent, and agree that I should dismount the horse of self-pity. I stand by my charges, however, though they might have been more moderately expressed, and would welcome a chance to defend them in a less emotionally charged manner.

It is difficult the defend myself against the charge of misogyny as only women who know me can do that, but i like to think I am not so. What more can I say?

2016 has not been a good year for the open-hearted and the congenitally optimistic, as i see myself. Its been a year of barbed wire in Europe, the rise of divisive nationalism (Brexit , anti-immigrant sentiment, and the rise of the far right generally), and a “beautiful wall” between the USA and Mexico, together with the exacerbation of a variety of cultural and identity differences. The hope was that the USA would offer a ray of hope with the rejection of Trump. It was not to be. As Yeats wrote of his time, so in ours:

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

It’s that, not misogyny, that drives my mood, sisters and brothers.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I have just been watching an African production of Julius Caesar. (Cinna the poet dies with a South African burning tyre around him.)

It joins up with the Noah comparison of Trump with African dictators, making the comparison itself of them with Julius Caesar.

One wonders what Shakespeare was comparing the events with - it seems rather glib to suggest a fear of the return of the Wars of the Roses, it seems more immediate than that. Who did he know who spoke like that?

And I am toying with a rewrite of Brutus' speech, full of beautifuls and bests and yuges, and sound and fury signifying nothing.

And then, 'The noble Donald has told you Clinton was ambitious - if it were so, it were a grievous fault, and grievously has Clinton answered it.'

[ 29. November 2016, 16:01: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:

2016 has not been a good year for the open-hearted and the congenitally optimistic, as i see myself.

I am hardly little miss sunshine, but you are not alone in feeing dragged down by this year. The Ship is more liberal than conservative, so there are quite a few people here who feel the same frustration.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I went to my doctor for some minor issues, and they are doing something new: a two-question depression survey. The question was, "Have you felt very sad in the past few weeks?" I replied, "Of -course- I felt very sad the past few weeks!" The nurse admitted that this was not a good time to do the screening.
In other downers,
Obamacare is doomed. There'll be a lot more poor sick people in America.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
2016 has not been a good year for the open-hearted and the congenitally optimistic, as i see myself.

It has been much improved in Canada. Not perfect, but much much better since our federal election.

On a different USA election aftermath issue, if Russia and USA are now going to be closer, and Trump and Putin will soon pose, shirts off (shudder), horse riding or spearing some animal, does Russia deport Snowden into Trump's welcoming, ahem, hands?

[ 29. November 2016, 21:07: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Brenda Clough
quote:
I went to my doctor for some minor issues, and they are doing something new: a two-question depression survey. The question was, "Have you felt very sad in the past few weeks?" I replied, "Of -course- I felt very sad the past few weeks!" The nurse admitted that this was not a good time to do the screening.
Not wishing to give Trump the honours of victory he thinks he deserves, I console myself with the observation of Marx: "“History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." Hope it doesn't relate to a two-term presidency!
 
Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
I do not post here anymore and so accept my apologies for entering the thread at this point. I wrote a post but realized Jay said it better. No reason to sugar coat it.
Jay Smooth
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
On a different USA election aftermath issue, if Russia and USA are now going to be closer, and Trump and Putin will soon pose, shirts off (shudder), horse riding or spearing some animal, does Russia deport Snowden into Trump's welcoming, ahem, hands?

In the name of all that's holy, please refrain from painting such mental pictures, at least until the invention of giant brain scrubbers.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
It is difficult the defend myself against the charge of misogyny as only women who know me can do that, but i like to think I am not so. What more can I say?

I said your stance was sexist, not that you are a misogynist. The distinction is important.

You claim that she lacked passion - is that because Clinton's most passionate and meaningful appeals were to women and talked about girls? I wonder if you can even feel the appeal of that, not being one of us she was talking to. I was more than once moved to tears. You accuse her on the basis of her appeals to women of ignoring men and boys, as if caring especially about the future of people drastically under-represented in the American political process meant she didn't care about the ones who have been over-represented throughout our history.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Ruth, you were clearly inspired by Hilary Clinton's campaign. That does not, however, appear to have been the general experience of white women according to the CAWP (Centre for American Women and Politics) at Rutgers, as I earlier reported:

“With such factors at play (along with more generic electoral trends, like how tough it is for either party to win a “third term”), Clinton couldn’t just lure white women to the blue team based on a sense of sisterhood. She needed to inspire them. And that’s not what Clinton does. Even those who love her acknowledge that she is a lackluster candidate. She is too private, too reserved, too cerebral. It’s a key reason that Obama, with his scant political experience, beat her in 2008.” <http://presidentialgenderwatch.org/author/kdittmar>

What I'm asking you is why you think most white women reacted differently to yourself.

On a different point, I don't think it sexist to point to the judicial treatment of young black men, who seem to be more exposed than their sisters? Nor is it unfair to show concern for the situation of poor young white men who have been denied the work opportunities available to their fathers and grandfathers. It is not unfair and pragmatically advisable for candidates to show concern for their blighted aspirations. Not a few mothers would say amen to that.

In democratic politics it is advisable to make as wide a democratic appeal as possible. My question respecting the Hilary Clinton campaign is whether its overt feminism, however justified, failed to cover both gender bases. I don't think that's a sexist observation. At the same time i agree that males are over-represented in the political process so that too many ordinary brothers crowd out gifted sisters to the detriment of all. The defeat of Hilary Clinton, for me, is regretted not because she would have broken a glass ceiling but because she was the more able and better reflected my values to put it mildly. Of course, others may think differently.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Kwesi: may I quote a young family member re Hilary:

"I thought they were getting getting a woman president. Instead they got a man who sexually assaults women."

You don't have to be inspired to get that. Merely a human being.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
No Prophet, I would have thought so, too, but not sufficiently so according to Rutgers, respecting white females.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
With the election, it's prosperity gospel for the win! Two out of three Americans identify with some of its tenets.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
A lot of the elect have been deceived, Brenda. The electorate too. Trump looks increasingly like a man who really didn't think it would come to this.

I wonder who is really going to be in charge?
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
According to Wikipedia, voter turnout dropped rather dramatically in Canada and then went back up again in 2015 (which is for some reason not on the chart). Even the low numbers were higher than in the US.

Three reasons for that.

1) Canada has a multi-party system, and each riding has its own distinct culture. There are ridings which are Liberal/Tory battlegrounds (suburban Toronto), NDP/Liberal fights (Downtown Toronto), three-ways (BC Lower Mainland and Southwestern Ontario) and NDP/Tory contests (most of the Prairies and BC).

So each riding can get the competitors it wants, it doesn't have to stick with two national parties.

2) Canada has a strong history of waves with large turnovers of elected officials federally and in most provinces.

3) Riding boundaries are exclusively set by federal and provincial boundary commissions, chaired by a Superior Court Judge with academics as the co-commissioners. The chances of getting a blatantly partisan boundary proposal through are nil, I have presented to one of those commissions. Your proposal either makes sense geographically and fits the population quota or it will be dismissed, period.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I went to my doctor for some minor issues, and they are doing something new: a two-question depression survey. The question was, "Have you felt very sad in the past few weeks?" I replied, "Of -course- I felt very sad the past few weeks!" The nurse admitted that this was not a good time to do the screening.
In other downers,
Obamacare is doomed. There'll be a lot more poor sick people in America.

Our daughter put it quite simply. "Barack Obama gave us health care. Donald Fart will take it away".
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
No Prophet, I would have thought so, too, but not sufficiently so according to Rutgers, respecting white females.

Abortion played a part in the conservative states. Also in those states, a significant number of women think their place is below that of men's. So those women were not going to vote for Clinton anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
With the election, it's prosperity gospel for the win! Two out of three Americans identify with some of its tenets.

Still amazes me. The prosperity gospel is not only anti-Jesus, trickle down prosperity is demonstrably false.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Ruth, you were clearly inspired by Hilary Clinton's campaign. That does not, however, appear to have been the general experience of white women according to the CAWP (Centre for American Women and Politics) at Rutgers, as I earlier reported:

“With such factors at play (along with more generic electoral trends, like how tough it is for either party to win a “third term”), Clinton couldn’t just lure white women to the blue team based on a sense of sisterhood. She needed to inspire them. And that’s not what Clinton does. Even those who love her acknowledge that she is a lackluster candidate. She is too private, too reserved, too cerebral. It’s a key reason that Obama, with his scant political experience, beat her in 2008.” <http://presidentialgenderwatch.org/author/kdittmar>

What I'm asking you is why you think most white women reacted differently to yourself.

No. It was not "most white women". It was a subgroup of white women in particular battleground states. This was electoral math at it's finest. The majority of white women voted for Hillary.

I'm not suggesting that that does or should change the outcome-- unless some shenanigans, intentional are not, are proven to be at play (an incredibly slim chance). Those were the rules we signed on for. But it bears repeating that this is NOT what the majority of Americans, the majority of whites, the majority of women, or even the majority of evangelicals believe or want. Any notion that there's a "mandate" of any sort, even within one of those subsets, is simply not warranted. To get any sort of majority you really have to get very sub-sub group: "white rural evangelical men in the Bible belt".
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Is there a Misery Gospel?
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Any notion that there's a "mandate" of any sort, even within one of those subsets, is simply not warranted. To get any sort of majority you really have to get very sub-sub group: "white rural evangelical men in the Bible belt".

Trump won the majority of counties in the United States as highlighted in this map. That extends in to almost all areas except the coastal edges. I don't know what proportion he won of lower income brackets, but I would not be surprised if he captured a majority of people earning less than $50,000. Clinton certainly won the largest and most prosperous counties.

None of that is to say there is a mandate, although I think mandate is a nebulous idea. Executive action (widely used now and presumably will be under President Elect Trump) combined with a filibuster proof majority in Congress (a distinct possibility in 2018), would be the most effective mandate.

[ 01. December 2016, 01:02: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I don't know what proportion he won of lower income brackets, but I would not be surprised if he captured a majority of people earning less than $50,000. Clinton certainly won the largest and most prosperous counties.

According to these exit poll results, Clinton won the majority of votes of those earning $50K or less.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Any notion that there's a "mandate" of any sort, even within one of those subsets, is simply not warranted. To get any sort of majority you really have to get very sub-sub group: "white rural evangelical men in the Bible belt".

Trump won the majority of counties in the United States as highlighted in this map.
But counties don't vote, people do. The constituent pieces of a country are its people. The majority of counties in this country are all but empty, actually.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
According to these exit poll results, Clinton won the majority of votes of those earning $50K or less.

Thanks, that's an interesting infographic. Looks like he got the majority of $50,000 to $90,000. It's interesting that the upper brackets are almost evenly split.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Clinton certainly won the largest and most prosperous counties.

Here in the largest county in the country, Los Angeles County, almost 25% of the people under 18 live below the federal poverty line -- which of course being a national benchmark does not take into account how freakin' expensive it is to live here. Tell me again about our prosperity.

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Ruth, you were clearly inspired by Hilary Clinton's campaign.

I was not. I found her specific references to the future of young girls very moving. But as I am an ultra-liberal pacifist, I wasn't inspired by the centrist hawk.

quote:
That does not, however, appear to have been the general experience of white women according to the CAWP (Centre for American Women and Politics) at Rutgers, as I earlier reported:
Yeah, I read it the first time. It's opinion, not fact.

quote:
What I'm asking you is why you think most white women reacted differently to yourself.
What cliffdweller said.

And about the white women who did vote for Trump -- plenty of them are to one degree or another sexist and/or racist, or at least willing to tolerate sexism and racism in their tribal loyalty to the Republican party, no matter how shitty the candidate is.

quote:
On a different point, I don't think it sexist to point to the judicial treatment of young black men, who seem to be more exposed than their sisters? Nor is it unfair to show concern for the situation of poor young white men who have been denied the work opportunities available to their fathers and grandfathers. It is not unfair and pragmatically advisable for candidates to show concern for their blighted aspirations. Not a few mothers would say amen to that.
It is sexist to say that because she made special and very appropriate pleas to female votes and discussed girls' futures, she doesn't care about men. And you have ignored the link I posted about what she said about the mass incarceration of black men in April 2015.

You also don't seem to have been paying attention to the economic plan she put forward that was in fact intended to create economic opportunities for all sorts of people who aspirations have been blighted. Of course, the white working class wasn't either, being too busy chanting "lock her up!" or too uninformed to realize Trump can't bring back jobs from China that have actually been lost to mechanization.

quote:
In democratic politics it is advisable to make as wide a democratic appeal as possible.
Oh really? Is that how Trump won the presidency? Is failing to do so how Clinton won the popular vote?
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Here in the largest county in the country, Los Angeles County, almost 25% of the people under 18 live below the federal poverty line -- which of course being a national benchmark does not take into account how freakin' expensive it is to live here. Tell me again about our prosperity.

RuthW, I did a quick google search for median household income and it appears Los Angeles County is slightly above national average. Similar for San Benardino and Riverside. Orange and Ventura appear to be well above the national average. I would not be surprised if California as a whole fits this pattern, with many around the median and several well above it.

Donald Trump did not win the areas of the country that are economically advantaged, that's outlined in the Washington Post.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Here in the largest county in the country, Los Angeles County, almost 25% of the people under 18 live below the federal poverty line -- which of course being a national benchmark does not take into account how freakin' expensive it is to live here. Tell me again about our prosperity.

RuthW, I did a quick google search for median household income and it appears Los Angeles County is slightly above national average. Similar for San Benardino and Riverside. Orange and Ventura appear to be well above the national average. I would not be surprised if California as a whole fits this pattern, with many around the median and several well above it.

Now do a google search of housing prices/ rents in L.A. county compared with the rest of the nation and get back to me.

Ruth's analysis was spot on. Median income has to find the midpoint between that 25% below the poverty line and those living in Bel Air/ Beverly Hills/ San Marino/ Malibu/ Flintridge. Within a few miles from my home is the largest concentration of homeless in the country-- more than 5000 living on the streets in a few square blocks. In addition to Skid Row, the suburb where I serve had more than 600 at our last homeless census--it's even higher in other suburbs.

It's a very very diverse county.

[ 01. December 2016, 04:49: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Now do a google search of housing prices/ rents in L.A. county compared with the rest of the nation and get back to me.

This map indicates to me there is diversity of income levels in Los Angeles County spread across the various neighborhoods, with many above and below the national median. Housing prices being 50% above the national average which is what google reports back tells me there is a concentration of wealth in Los Angeles County (same with Seattle, Honolulu, San Francisco, etc.) that can support such prices, even if that wealth is not evenly distributed within the county. The Washington Post article indicates that the areas of concentrated wealth on both coasts went to Clinton, and the fact that Clinton lost with the support of the most economically advantaged sections of the country is unprecedented.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Housing prices being 50% above the national average which is what google reports back tells me there is a concentration of wealth in Los Angeles County (same with Seattle, Honolulu, San Francisco, etc.) that can support such prices,

Well, no. There is a concentration of people that can. Yes, there are rich pockets, but there are a lot of homes designed for single families that house multiple families, flats that are well over design capacity. The LA area is the part of the America with which I am most familiar and there are large amounts of poor and low income people.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Now do a google search of housing prices/ rents in L.A. county compared with the rest of the nation and get back to me.

This map indicates to me there is diversity of income levels in Los Angeles County spread across the various neighborhoods, with many above and below the national median. Housing prices being 50% above the national average which is what google reports back tells me there is a concentration of wealth in Los Angeles County (same with Seattle, Honolulu, San Francisco, etc.) that can support such prices, even if that wealth is not evenly distributed within the county. The Washington Post article indicates that the areas of concentrated wealth on both coasts went to Clinton, and the fact that Clinton lost with the support of the most economically advantaged sections of the country is unprecedented.
"Unprecedented"? Who won the west coast and the northeast in 2000 and 2004?
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Sky-high housing prices mean a lot of people are paying half their income or even more in rent. You need to make over $30 an hour to afford the average LA apartment. Minimum wage is $10. I make roughly $24, at a decent job in a slightly cheaper city, and the only reason I can afford to live in my neighborhood and also save for retirement is because I've been in my apartment over 20 years and for some unknown but blessed reason my rent increases have not kept up with the market. (My guess is the elderly landlady doesn't know what the place is worth and I'll be screwed after she dies.)

The point is, it is not just rich people in LA who make this county go blue. The graph cited above measures prosperity by GDP. It doesn't mean the people here share all that prosperity. The US GDP is huge, but there are still plenty of people in poverty. Same with the country's largest county. 20% of the people in my city live in poverty. That's a hell of a lot of poor people, and that's just the very poor - the tranche of folks just above them are not experiencing prosperity.

So when we're supposed to forgive poor people in other parts of the country for voting for a completely unqualified gasbag who doesn't believe in the principles of our democracy - no. Not going to happen, not on my end. Poor people where I live managed on the whole to figure out what a despicable asshole he is.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Housing prices being 50% above the national average which is what google reports back tells me there is a concentration of wealth in Los Angeles County (same with Seattle, Honolulu, San Francisco, etc.) that can support such prices,

Well, no. There is a concentration of people that can. Yes, there are rich pockets, but there are a lot of homes designed for single families that house multiple families, flats that are well over design capacity. The LA area is the part of the America with which I am most familiar and there are large amounts of poor and low income people.
Yes. You can't just jump from "rents are higher in LA" to "therefore people in LA must be wealthy to afford them." For some people, yes-- as I said, there are pockets of significant wealth-- mostly on the Westside. But (particularly in central and eastern LA) there are pockets of extreme poverty. As a lifelong LA resident, the 25% figure Ruth cites sounds about right to me. Higher rents do not automatically equal greater wealth, in many cases higher rents just mean those below the poverty line have an even greater struggle to make ends meet-- which was the point I thought would be obvious when I suggested you look at that. Which is why, as I noted in my post above, we have a greater concentration of homeless persons-- as well as whole families living in substandard conditions (e.g. not-up-to-code garage conversions).

[ 01. December 2016, 14:38: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
I focused more on rent rather than housing prices per se, since most lower income persons in LA are renters-- having been priced out of the housing market.

But there are huge inequities there as well, as noted by billionaire Warren Buffet. California property taxes are tied to the value of the property at time of purchase, not the current value or financial circumstances of the owner.

This means that for the home Buffet purchased in the 1970s in tony, upscale Laguna Beach, currently valued in excess of $4 million, Buffet pays only $2000 annually in property taxes. In contrast, a small 2-bedroom condo in less tony Santa Ana or Anaheim would cost at least $600,000-- with an annual tax of $6,000-- 3x what Buffet pays. We are subsidizing old wealth with new (relative) wealth-- someone born to poverty working the way up the ladder to home ownership is subsidizing services to older, often inherited wealth.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
someone born to poverty working the way up the ladder to home ownership is subsidizing services to older, often inherited wealth.

In the Panama Papers scandal, there were relatively few American found to be investing offshore in those papers is because the US is inordinately friendly to the rich. The US is a tax haven.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
Well this [PDF] is interesting:

quote:
We believe there is additional information concerning the Russian Government and the U.S. election that should be declassified and released to the public. We are conveying specifics through classified channels.
The signatories are all the Democratic members of the Senate Intelligence Committee except Diane Feinstein. According to The Guardian Feinstein did sign the classified version of the letter. Also according The Guardian "this is the first declassification request by eight senators in at least twelve years".

So apparently there's something these senators think the American public needs to know, and that the need to know it is of greater importance than whatever justified the information being classified in the first place.

I expect much rampant speculation.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
An exhaustive analysis of what happened in the election now that the dust has settled a little.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"Unprecedented"? Who won the west coast and the northeast in 2000 and 2004?

The part that appears to be unprecedented is the fact that Clinton carried counties that are responsible for about 65% of U.S. economic output, and still lost. We are seeing a first. The concentration of wealth in the coastal areas has accelerated since 2004. Presumably this economic disparity, if it continues, could continue to have unexpected consequences. I think that is a lesson of this election.

In regards to Los Angeles County, I don't believe I anywhere stated that it is uniformly or even majority high income. I'm simply saying it has a concentration of wealth, and is one of the types of counties Clinton carried. Looking at the LA times neighborhood income map, it appears to me Los Angeles has roughly the same number of neighborhoods with median family income above $90,000 as it does below $40,000. That to me indicates both a concentration of wealth, as well as significant numbers of haves and have nots with a wide disparity between them.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
In regards to Los Angeles County, I don't believe I anywhere stated that it is uniformly or even majority high income. I'm simply saying it has a concentration of wealth, and is one of the types of counties Clinton carried. Looking at the LA times neighborhood income map, it appears to me Los Angeles has roughly the same number of neighborhoods with median family income above $90,000 as it does below $40,000. That to me indicates both a concentration of wealth, as well as significant numbers of haves and have nots with a wide disparity between them.

Yes, that's precisely what Ruth and I have been saying. But of course, as is usually the case with urban poverty, the lower income neighborhoods are significantly denser/ more populous than the high income neighborhoods. So the implication that only wealthy west coasters voted for Clinton just isn't warranted.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"Unprecedented"? Who won the west coast and the northeast in 2000 and 2004?

The part that appears to be unprecedented is the fact that Clinton carried counties that are responsible for about 65% of U.S. economic output, and still lost. We are seeing a first. The concentration of wealth in the coastal areas has accelerated since 2004. Presumably this economic disparity, if it continues, could continue to have unexpected consequences. I think that is a lesson of this election.
But that's where most of the population is! They're responsible for a lot of economic output primarily because they have a lot of people, not because they're simply full of rich people.

You seem determined to try to find some interpretation, however strained, which makes the Democrats out to be the party of the rich elite. But acreage doesn't vote, counties don't vote - people do. And the exit polls I linked to before show the only income ranges the Democrats won were below $50k.

This is hardly new - check out these plots of party identification by income quintile, 2000-2009 (from here), and see how Democratic ID falls with income and Republican ID rises. Same story in similar plots for Democratic presidential vote by income quintile, 1980-2000.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Clinton lost, in part, due to the over-representation of areas low in population, IIRC. It seems that the electoral college, instead of being balanced, skews towards empty space.
If I understand it correctly.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
After lilBuddha above:

Bias in the electoral college is conventionally understood as the difference between the outcome in the college and the popular vote. Consequently, the critical factor is not the distribution of the vote between urban, suburban and rural locations, but the efficiency of the vote distribution between states. The bias towards the Republicans and Democrats has varied over time, though the winner has almost always won in both the college and in the popular vote. At present, however, the system is biased towards the Republicans, which seems to have become critical in closely-fought contests, occasioning the defeat of the more popular Democrats, Al Gore and Hilary Clinton. Clearly, the credibility of the system will come into question increasingly if the more popular candidate regularly loses in the college.

As I pointed out earlier, however, one has to bear in mind the rules under which elections are conducted because they affect the campaign strategies of the parties and voting behaviour. One cannot, therefore, assume that Gore and Clinton would have won if their contests had been based on the outcome of the popular vote. Trump, for example, would have fought more vigorously in the heavily-populated blue states, especially in California. In many ways, however, the discussion is academic because one cannot see how practically the system could be reformed.

More reformable, however, is access to the electoral register and the opportunity to vote. The Southern states in particular make voter registration and voting difficult and restrictive. The number of registration offices are minimal and their hours of opening limited to conventional office hours. Similarly, polling stations there are fewer and close earlier than elsewhere. Action by a liberal Supreme Court (if ever!) interpreting the Voting Rights Acts more astringently could produce progress in these matters. The outcome, of course, is likely to advantage the Democrats in terms of the popular vote but increase the Republican bias in the college.

I don’t know the answer, but how many congressional districts having Republican Congressmen (women) voted for Hilary Clinton? That could have consequences for the first half of Trump’s first term.

The issue of urban, suburban and rural locations is more important in terms of power within states, as the more conservative rural areas tend to be over-represented in their legislatures, which has important consequences for the decennial re-districting process for the U.S. Congress.

It all goes to show that the USA has had great difficulty in becoming a democracy even in the most conventional sense of equal opportunity of access to the ballot.
 
Posted by Erik (# 11406) on :
 
Following on from lilBuddha's post about the electoral college being biased towards empty space...

If I understand correctly, the number of electoral college votes assigned to each state was originally based on the population of those areas. Has the number of electoral votes a state has ever been altered to reflect changes in population?
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Yes, because the number of House seats awarded to a state is re-calculated every ten years on a population basis. There is, however, a bias towards the smaller states due to each state having two senators. (The number of college votes equals the combined number of Representatives and Senators it has).
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
As a reminder from stuff way upthread by now--

The bias in the electoral college (and Congress) was intentional to avoid having low-population states overwhelmed. Without this intentionally-created bias certain states (notably the farming ones, but also islands and Alaska) would have basically no voice. I mean, do you really want a U.S. ruled almost wholly by Texas, Florida, and California? (stop and think about that combo, if you know the cultures--it'd make for some REALLY interesting fights in Congress, as well as some odd alliances)

That's what you'd get if you did everything by population alone.

And I love California (my native state) but I don't imagine for a moment they are saints enough to refrain from pushing their particular interests through at the expense of the rest of the country. Nor any state, really.
 
Posted by barrea (# 3211) on :
 
Why don't they just have a simple voting system like over here UK. the person with the most vote wins?
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
That's a joke, right? You didn't see my last post?
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The bias in the electoral college (and Congress) was intentional to avoid having low-population states overwhelmed. Without this intentionally-created bias certain states (notably the farming ones, but also islands and Alaska) would have basically no voice.

A reminder that when LC says "no voice", she means "a voice proportional to population". As always, the reason why some constituencies need to be given a disproportionate amount of power in a given political system is left vague, other than some stereotypes about urban corruption and rural virtue.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I mean, do you really want a U.S. ruled almost wholly by Texas, Florida, and California? (stop and think about that combo, if you know the cultures--it'd make for some REALLY interesting fights in Congress, as well as some odd alliances)

That's what you'd get if you did everything by population alone.

And I love California (my native state) but I don't imagine for a moment they are saints enough to refrain from pushing their particular interests through at the expense of the rest of the country.

Yeah, like that.

Like many things about the U.S. Constitution, the electoral college wasn't some coherent, philosophically necessary system dictated by overall structure of the rest of the Constitutional order, it was an ad hoc compromise designed to fit the political expediencies of the day. In this case, the expediencies were a sweetener for the slave-intensive states of the South and an acknowledgement of the political realities of decentralized, state-based centers of political power. But it should be remembered that it was controversial even in its day. James Madison (sometimes known as the "Father of the Constitution") preferred a direct, national election for the President. Others proposed that the President be selected by Congress. The electoral college was, as I said earlier, an ad hoc compromise rather than any philosophically necessary system.

Still, when you advocate for something other than "whoever gets the most votes wins", I think the onus on you is to provide a more substantial case for minority rule than "those bastards in populous states can't be trusted". It's not very far from there to Why the South Must Prevail [PDF].

[ 02. December 2016, 17:15: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

That's what you'd get if you did everything by population alone.

But what you get now is the majority held hostage to isolated ignorance. That the shift is in the reverse is not a better thing.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
From an article discussing the electoral college:

quote:
Some will defend the Electoral College on the grounds that it requires presidential candidates to pay more attention to small states. But there is little reason to give small states, already overrepresented somewhat in the House and massively overrepresented in the Senate, yet another thumb on the scale. Besides, if it were a good idea in theory, it doesn’t work in practice. As Ari Berman of The Nation observes, “94 percent of campaign visits and money went to just 12 states.” To defend the Electoral College on the grounds that it broadens the scope of presidential campaigning is truly perverse.

 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Would a compromise of one electoral vote for each state work?

I have a cold, so that may well not make much sense. I lean towards getting rid of the EC, even though I don't generally like to mess around too much with what the founding guys set up. Except for human rights issues...and this, arguably, could be one.

But if we need the EC for checks and balances, would one electoral vote per state do that? All states would be equal. Though we could still wind up in the current popular/electoral situation.

We could have each state's popular winner automatically be their electoral choice. But states currently do their own thing. There'd be a huge fuss over states' rights.

Any changes would take a long time to put together, approve, and implement. Probably wouldn't be done for the next presidential election.

what a mess. [Frown]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Would a compromise of one electoral vote for each state work?

That's not really a compromise; that's lurching further in the direction of overrepresentation of small states.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As a reminder from stuff way upthread by now--

The bias in the electoral college (and Congress) was intentional to avoid having low-population states overwhelmed. Without this intentionally-created bias certain states (notably the farming ones, but also islands and Alaska) would have basically no voice. I mean, do you really want a U.S. ruled almost wholly by Texas, Florida, and California? (stop and think about that combo, if you know the cultures--it'd make for some REALLY interesting fights in Congress, as well as some odd alliances)

Time to give up the experiment. The left coast, or at least the west half of the left coast states, would make an awesome sovereign nation. Where do I sign?
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Would a compromise of one electoral vote for each state work?

As mousethief already pointed out, it wouldn't.

Allow me to propose a counter-compromise: each state has a number of electoral votes equal to the number of U.S. citizens over the age of eighteen residing within its borders and these votes are divided up as per the preferences of those same citizens. [Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But if we need the EC for checks and balances, . . .

That's rather begging the question, isn't it? Does the electoral college contribute in any significant way to the American system of checks and balances? I don't see that it does. Is the lack of such a system in every other election conducted in the U.S. evidence that tyranny is nigh? Quite frankly, the fact that no other election (in the U.S. or elsewhere) is conducted in this manner speaks volumes against all the pragmatic "reasons" advanced for the electoral college.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Would a compromise of one electoral vote for each state work?

As mousethief already pointed out, it wouldn't.

Allow me to propose a counter-compromise: each state has a number of electoral votes equal to the number of U.S. citizens over the age of eighteen residing within its borders and these votes are divided up as per the preferences of those same citizens. [Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But if we need the EC for checks and balances, . . .

That's rather begging the question, isn't it? Does the electoral college contribute in any significant way to the American system of checks and balances? I don't see that it does. Is the lack of such a system in every other election conducted in the U.S. evidence that tyranny is nigh? Quite frankly, the fact that no other election (in the U.S. or elsewhere) is conducted in this manner speaks volumes against all the pragmatic "reasons" advanced for the electoral college.

Yes.

It seems like the EC is established to "balance" power between populous urban areas and less populous rural areas (which conveniently also aligned with the balance between northern and southern slave states). The suggestion being that those rural areas are disadvantaged in ways that require special pleading to let their voices be heard.

And in some ways that might be true. Certainly the result of the election appear to suggest rural whites feel "unheard"-- and that there is some truth to that, given that the rest of the country, even the pollsters, didn't see Trump's victory coming. So we have a real minority with concerns and/or fears that are, at least in their minds, significant, and are not being addressed or even heard by the majority of Americans.

The question, though, is whether THIS minority is any more deserving of special pleading than any other minority group. Do rural whites need to be protected from urban diversity any more than racial, religious, or LGBT minorities need to be protected? By singling out just one "minority" group and giving it this special status we have made the marginalizing of all these other groups all the greater.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
The voting systems for Senate and the EC in the US, and the Senate here, give disproportionate weight to votes of those in smaller states. A referendum to amend the constitution here has to be passed by a majority of voters in a majority of states; again, that gives disproportionate weight to votes in smaller states. At least we can vote for the Senates - unlike Canada where Senators are appointed, and the House of Lords in the UK with a strange system combining those appointed for life with the remainder voted in by an extremely limited franchise.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I'm going to sit on my temper real hard here.

Look, the premise of the United States is that we are not organized only as individuals, but as -- wait for it -- actual STATES. That is, communities of people whose geographical location causes them to share certain interests. And those interests are NOT purely slavery, thank-you-very-much. In fact, the least-populated states are just as much in the North or middle as in the South. More so, if you consider Texas and Florida to be in any way "South."

There is nothing wrong with shared interests. There is nothing wrong with seeking consideration for those shared interests on a federal level. That's why we have the United States, rather than 50 independent states. The intention was some sort of cooperation. And cooperation ought to flow more than one way.

It's damnably rude to characterize all of rural America as "ignorant." It also makes any reasonable discussion go right down the crapper. Rural America did not elect Donald Trump on its own. Some of rural America voted blue. Some of heavily-developed America voted red. And it isn't rural America that has him holed up in a tower right now, planning God-knows-what kind of shit.

If you want to get rid of the electoral college, I have one question for you: If this election had turned out the other way (and how I wish it did!), would you honestly still want the EC gone?

Times change. Killing the EC because you're pissed about two elections is silly. (Don't anyone tell me you're still angsting about Benjamin Harrison.)

If you're going to kill the thing, first figure out how you're going to handle fairness to places like Alaska.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Look, the premise of the United States is that we are not organized only as individuals, but as -- wait for it -- actual STATES. That is, communities of people whose geographical location causes them to share certain interests.

And that made more sense in a time where it took days or months to communicate between areas.

quote:

The intention was some sort of cooperation. And cooperation ought to flow more than one way.

Being divided into states that seek to protect their POV, regardless of whether or not it is actually threatened, isn't conducive to cooperation.
quote:

It's damnably rude to characterize all of rural America as "ignorant."

I did not characterise all of rural America as ignorant. But I find it hard to find reasons people voted for Trump other than racism, misogyny, xenophobia and ignorance.
quote:

Rural America did not elect Donald Trump on its own.

This population density map is very similar to this voting map.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm going to sit on my temper real hard here.

I'm not sure how much of that is a response to my prior post and how much is others', but I'll respond/ take responsibility for my share as best I can:


quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Look, the premise of the United States is that we are not organized only as individuals, but as -- wait for it -- actual STATES. That is, communities of people whose geographical location causes them to share certain interests. And those interests are NOT purely slavery, thank-you-very-much. In fact, the least-populated states are just as much in the North or middle as in the South. More so, if you consider Texas and Florida to be in any way "South."

Sure. My comment about slavery was re the original compromise that led to the EC-- at least as I understand it. There is a lot that has been written speculating on why the founding fathers gave us this particular compromise, but it is clear at least that it was a compromise, and in fact, primarily a compromise between north and south. Of course, at the time of the constitution, slavery was legal in both north and south, and much of the country on both sides of Mason/Dixon was agricultural-- and more people lived in small towns than large cities. But... the plantation system with large numbers of slaves was more unique to the South, and that has been suggested as a rationale for the EC/differing interests.

None of which is really relevant today- as you rightly point out. I brought it up merely as a historical point when replaying the history, but failed to make that clear.


quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's damnably rude to characterize all of rural America as "ignorant." It also makes any reasonable discussion go right down the crapper.

Agreed. I'm not sure that argument has been made here, but it certainly has in the wider media.


quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Rural America did not elect Donald Trump on its own. Some of rural America voted blue. Some of heavily-developed America voted red. And it isn't rural America that has him holed up in a tower right now, planning God-knows-what kind of shit.

I'm having a hard time getting a handle on who DID elect Trump-- just as I did all thru the election. Which goes of course to the echo chamber effect. But the best I can see is that "rural white evangelical male" was the best predictor of being a Trump voter-- with at least three of the four needing to be in place to be an accurate assessment. So it certainly isn't "rural" alone, just as "white" isn't and neither is "evangelical". Similar to what I said earlier when it was laid at the feet of white women and/or evangelicals. And of course, there are outliers on both sides of that equation.

fwiw, the largest agricultural producer in the country is, as you no doubt know, blue-state California (although the San Joaquin valley is a red enclave within our blueness).


quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
There is nothing wrong with shared interests. There is nothing wrong with seeking consideration for those shared interests on a federal level. That's why we have the United States, rather than 50 independent states. The intention was some sort of cooperation. And cooperation ought to flow more than one way.

Sure. And both parties play that by cobbling together coalitions with shared interests. My question-- and it was purely off-the-cuff musing that may not bear up to scrutiny-- was whether the ONE particular "shared interest" being protected by the EC-- i.e. the shared interests of voters in less-populated vs more-populated areas-- need or should be protected any MORE than other sorts of shared interests-- e.g. the shared interests of racial minorities, or immigrants, or LGBT folks? Why does this ONE group need special protection?


quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

If you want to get rid of the electoral college, I have one question for you: If this election had turned out the other way (and how I wish it did!), would you honestly still want the EC gone?

Certainly a fair question, and one that has been asked all along, as well it should. One I've asked myself.

And to be honest, I doubt I would feel as strongly about it if it weren't having this outcome, and particularly if we hadn't seen such a dramatic shift from the popular vote. We have all lost elections before, but this election was experienced differently by liberal voters in blue states because of the echo-chamber effect and the misleading predictions. We went into it so, well, cocky & sure of ourselves (which, of course, is one of many, many factors to blame in the whole mess) that we were blindsided by the result. Which then is amplified when we hear the results of the popular vote.

Really, it can probably best be described as the "five stages of grieving", and we're all at different stages. There was/is a lot of denial-- which is feeding conspiracy theories and possibly the calls for recounts/accusations of Russian tampering, etc. Then there's bargaining-- the EC debate probably comes under that. Not very many of us have gotten to "acceptance" yet. Perhaps we never will.

I was just sharing with a RL friend today that I haven't really figured out for myself what a healthy response to the election would look like. I am aware of this huge disconnect between my own experience and that of Trump voters-- that I don't get them, don't understand them, and am not hearing their voices represented in the media I consume. So, on the one hand, I feel a responsibility to read/listen more widely. Yet, otoh, that sort of wider conversation seems (for me personally) to only feed the unhealthy responses-- fear, anger, bitterness-- on my part. It just hasn't been healthy for my soul. But then (if I'm allowed a 3rd hand) I'm thinking about how to organize to protect/ advocate for the interests I'm concerned about-- the things that motivated my lefty vote in the first place. I'm still wrestling with all of that on a personal level, much less trying to think about what it should look like for the DNC or lefty voters as a whole.

So, your question is well-placed, but for me personally, just a drop in a bigger morass of soul-searching.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
It's not you, Cliffdweller. You have nuance and tend to see both sides.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Look, the premise of the United States is that we are not organized only as individuals, but as -- wait for it -- actual STATES. That is, communities of people whose geographical location causes them to share certain interests.

And that made more sense in a time where it took days or months to communicate between areas.
Tell me, lilBuddha, are you an American? Because you don't seem to get the point of having states. Your problem appears to be, not so much with the electoral college, as with the concept of states per se.

You might want to go and do some thinking on why we bother with states at all, as opposed to countries who keep everything in a single population group.

Hint: States are NOT simply convenient administrative units. Nor are they gerrymandered district lines--their origins are more organic than that.

Which is why the EC takes notice of states and not merely individuals.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
But that's where most of the population is! They're responsible for a lot of economic output primarily because they have a lot of people, not because they're simply full of rich people.

I don't really think it's either. There areas with high population, and high population density that have low economic output. I also don't think I've said anything along the lines of economic output being tied to the presence of a bunch of "rich people". Rather, what seems to be happening as evidenced in the Brookings Institution research, is the economic output is being shifted to a narrower slice of geography and that this is also creating a concentration of wealth. I don't think this is actually due to a population shift, rather it seems to be an economic shift. The shift being to technology and services focus and away from manufacturing. This has been going on for a while, and seems to have reached a tipping point in this election. The losers in the new economic climate seemed to have said they have had enough, and were willing to elect someone who in any other circumstances would be seemingly unelectable (and who it seems tried to do everything possible to ensure his own defeat).

quote:
You seem determined to try to find some interpretation, however strained, which makes the Democrats out to be the party of the rich elite. But acreage doesn't vote, counties don't vote - people do. And the exit polls I linked to before show the only income ranges the Democrats won were below $50k.

I really don't feel like I'm straining to find an interpretation here, I'm looking at the numbers (not that it matters, but I am a registered independent who did not vote for Trump or Clinton), so I also don't think I'm trying to advance anyone's agenda.

You did earlier point out in the exit poll data that my guess that Trump may have carried the sub $50k median income range was wrong. I did mention earlier I was surprised at how close the upper income brackets were in terms of the split between Trump and Clinton in that exit poll data. Where Trump did have the largest edge in the poll data you posted was in the $50 to $90k range, and that was really where his victory probably came from. In most other circumstances, those $50 to $90k range voters in Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania would probably vote Democratic. That was the deciding factor.

quote:
This is hardly new - check out these plots of party identification by income quintile, 2000-2009 (from here), and see how Democratic ID falls with income and Republican ID rises. Same story in similar plots for Democratic presidential vote by income quintile, 1980-2000.

The plots are very interesting and seem to line up with the exit poll data you posted. You are correct about the falling and rising with the party affiliation graphs, but there is an interesting shift within the numbers. If you look at the third and fourth quintiles (income brackets probably normally considered middle class), you see the number who identify as Democrat started to dip, it appears around 2007/2008 as I make out the x axis. In the highest quintile, there has been a steady rise in those who identify as Democratic starting in around 2004. It's an interesting shift, and I think lines up with what I was saying earlier. In the who votes column charts you posted you can see the proportion of those who voted Democratic in 1980 that were in the highest income bracket was 35%, and it went up to 43% in 2000.

I really enjoyed looking the numbers you found, so thanks for posting them.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If you want to get rid of the electoral college, I have one question for you: If this election had turned out the other way (and how I wish it did!), would you honestly still want the EC gone?

I think it’s fair to say that had the election gone to Clinton, there would not be a murmur about the electoral college. Whether we wish it gone or not, it is incredibly unlikely if not essentially impossible that it will be going away. If I were in the Clinton camp I would not waste time with sour grapes over this, I would try and figure out how a slam dunk was bricked.

One thing I do think should change, although I doubt will, is the nominating process.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

You might want to go and do some thinking on why we bother with states at all, as opposed to countries who keep everything in a single population group.

The states are precisely administrative units. That is why they were developed.
No country is homogeneous. And yet many manage to have a more centralised government. I am suggesting that states are less necessary now than in the past.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I repeat--are you an American? Because your bare assertion is remarkably unconvincing if not.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Either my statement has merit or it does not. If it does not, can you explain why it does not?
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
But that's where most of the population is! They're responsible for a lot of economic output primarily because they have a lot of people, not because they're simply full of rich people.

I don't really think it's either. There areas with high population, and high population density that have low economic output. I also don't think I've said anything along the lines of economic output being tied to the presence of a bunch of "rich people". Rather, what seems to be happening as evidenced in the Brookings Institution research, is the economic output is being shifted to a narrower slice of geography and that this is also creating a concentration of wealth.
No - from your own WaPo link:
quote:
But it's not the case that the counties Clinton won have grown richer at the expense of the rest of the country — they represent about the same share of the economy today as they did in 2000.
quote:
The losers in the new economic climate seemed to have said they have had enough, and were willing to elect someone who in any other circumstances would be seemingly unelectable (and who it seems tried to do everything possible to ensure his own defeat).

Only if the definition of "losers" somehow manages to exclude the people at the bottom of the income distribution, most of whom supported the Democratic candidate (as per usual.)
quote:
quote:
You seem determined to try to find some interpretation, however strained, which makes the Democrats out to be the party of the rich elite. But acreage doesn't vote, counties don't vote - people do. And the exit polls I linked to before show the only income ranges the Democrats won were below $50k.

I really don't feel like I'm straining to find an interpretation here, I'm looking at the numbers (not that it matters, but I am a registered independent who did not vote for Trump or Clinton), so I also don't think I'm trying to advance anyone's agenda.
A favored but unsupported theory doesn't necessarily have to be someone else's agenda, or even your own agenda. But if, after you find yourself surprised by facts that seem to contradict what your narrative would have lead you to expect, you then find yourself still looking for support in ever smaller features of the data, perhaps it's a sign that what you took to be useful view of what's going on isn't as helpfully explanatory as you thought it might be.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Either my statement has merit or it does not. If it does not, can you explain why it does not?

I can and will, but not over this crappy wifi. Are you going to answer, or keep evading the question?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Either my statement has merit or it does not. If it does not, can you explain why it does not?

I can and will, but not over this crappy wifi. Are you going to answer, or keep evading the question?
I don't do much in the way of direct biographical information. But I do not see how that matters to this bit of this discussion.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Not American then. Right.

I'll make it as clear as I can.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
hosting/

Lamb Chopped, persisting in trying to elicit personal information from another Shipmate when they have already made it clear they don't want to divulge it qualifies as a personal attack from my perspective. Back off.

/hosting
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
ISTM the two-vote state element in the college is of no great importance, and has far as I am aware has not been decisive in determining the outcome of any presidential election, at least in recent times. It's a red herring.

Surely, more problematical in democratic terms is the composition of the Senate.

The democratic credentials of US institutions are also called into question by the Supreme Court, which exercises considerable political power but is unaccountable to the public for its decisions.

The US, in short, is a funny sort of democracy, aint it?
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
No - from your own WaPo link: But it's not the case that the counties Clinton won have grown richer at the expense of the rest of the country — they represent about the same share of the economy today as they did in 2000.



Right, but I don't believe that actually contradicts anything I've said. To quote the fuller section

This appears to be unprecedented, in the era of modern economic statistics, for a losing presidential candidate. The last candidate to win the popular vote but lose the electoral college, Democrat Al Gore in 2000, won counties that generated about 54 percent of the country's gross domestic product, the Brookings researchers calculated. That's true even though Gore won more than 100 more counties in 2000 than Clinton did in 2016. In between those elections, U.S. economic activity has grown increasingly concentrated in large, “superstar” metro areas, such as Silicon Valley and New York. But it's not the case that the counties Clinton won have grown richer at the expense of the rest of the country — they represent about the same share of the economy today as they did in 2000. Instead, it appears that, compared to Gore, Clinton was much more successful in winning over the most successful counties in a geographically unbalanced economy.

To sum up what the analysis is saying can be described this way

1. There is a long standing imbalance in the economy which is manifesting itself in an increasingly divided geography.
2. The imbalance is being further exacerbated by a concentration of the parts of the geography not just doing well, but doing really well.
3. Clinton took 100 fewer counties than Gore, but 10% more of the economic output of the country. This has never happened before.
4. To quote again "the Democratic base aligning more to that more concentrated modern economy, but a lot of votes and anger to be had in the rest of the country."

My own interpretation of the other numbers you posted is that

1. The lower income brackets remain solidly blue.
2. The middle tiers are dipping in blue affiliation.
3. The upper tier is rising as a blue demographic.

San Francisco might be a microcosm of this.

Overall, in light of this concentration, the electoral college now seems suddenly incredibly relevant for the foreseeable future.

quote:
Only if the definition of "losers" somehow manages to exclude the people at the bottom of the income distribution, most of whom supported the Democratic candidate (as per usual.)
My apologies for lack of clarity there. The economic losers whose interests are typically thought to be solidly blue, but that went red. A breaking point seems to have been reached in this election because they don't feel like their economic concerns were being addressed.

quote:
But if, after you find yourself surprised by facts that seem to contradict what your narrative would have lead you to expect, you then find yourself still looking for support in ever smaller features of the data, perhaps it's a sign that what you took to be useful view of what's going on isn't as helpfully explanatory as you thought it might be.

I have not seen the contradictory facts, but I am absolutely open to an alternate explanation of what's going on utilizing the data at hand. Focusing on the subsets of data would indeed be wrong, if done at the exclusion or without reference to the larger data set. The averages are important, but so are the deviations and outliers. They do not negate each other. Looking for the small changes in the overall picture helps you figure out the part we can't see, and that's what the model will look like going forward. I am quite curious to hear your interpretation of what happened, again based on what the data makes available to us.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
No - from your own WaPo link: But it's not the case that the counties Clinton won have grown richer at the expense of the rest of the country — they represent about the same share of the economy today as they did in 2000.

Right, but I don't believe that actually contradicts anything I've said.
It contradicts this:
quote:
what seems to be happening as evidenced in the Brookings Institution research, is the economic output is being shifted to a narrower slice of geography and that this is also creating a concentration of wealth.
According to the WaPo article, those counties haven't grown relatively richer since 2000.

The problem may simply be incoherence in the WaPo article itself:
quote:
In between those elections, U.S. economic activity has grown increasingly concentrated in large, “superstar” metro areas, such as Silicon Valley and New York.
In what sense has economic activity grown increasingly concentrated if the counties in question have about the same share of the economy as before?

This whole WaPo/Brookings attempt to explain the results through the lens of county-level income seems dubious to me. The WaPo article seems to have no link to any Brookings publications on this, if there are any; I'd be reluctant to place a lot of weight on an article which contains apparently contradictory statements about what's supposed to be a key explanatory factor for which historical trends aren't presented. The article says Brookings researchers found this while "sifting the election returns"; without the context of any previous supporting analyses, it sounds suspiciously like data dredging.
quote:
My own interpretation of the other numbers you posted is that

1. The lower income brackets remain solidly blue.
2. The middle tiers are dipping in blue affiliation.
3. The upper tier is rising as a blue demographic.

I think the blue lines in the party ID graphs are remarkably steady - I highly doubt you could find any significant trends that would support this interpretation. (The only consistent trend over time that I see is an apparent shift in ID from Republican to independent, which seems to be common across all quintiles.)
quote:
quote:
But if, after you find yourself surprised by facts that seem to contradict what your narrative would have lead you to expect, you then find yourself still looking for support in ever smaller features of the data, perhaps it's a sign that what you took to be useful view of what's going on isn't as helpfully explanatory as you thought it might be.

I have not seen the contradictory facts,

I was referring to your surprise that Clinton won low income voters, a fact that contradicted what you said you expected.
quote:
[snip]
I am quite curious to hear your interpretation of what happened, again based on what the data makes available to us.

And if I had a compelling interpretation, I'd be happy to share it with you! Sadly, I haven't heard one yet. And if I had, I doubt it could be entirely based on "data" - certainly not just on things at the level of county wealth statistics. It would have to take into account such things as the fact people's preference for Trump over Clinton was better predicted by their belief that Obama is a Muslim than by their level of economic anxiety, the collapse of the Republican party establishment's role as gatekeeper to its own nomination process, and the Democratic party's own severe but different failures in that process.

The result of the election was decided by very thin margins in a few swing states. That suggests there are probably a large number of factors which could have made the difference if they had been slightly different; in such circumstances, it's probably not meaningful to point at any one of them and say "This explains it!"
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
ISTM the two-vote state element in the college is of no great importance, and has far as I am aware has not been decisive in determining the outcome of any presidential election, at least in recent times. It's a red herring.

[Confused] How is it NOT a factor in this election? Is this not precisely the reason that HIllary lost, despite being ahead more than 2 million votes in the overall tally?
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

You might want to go and do some thinking on why we bother with states at all, as opposed to countries who keep everything in a single population group.

The states are precisely administrative units. That is why they were developed.
No country is homogeneous. And yet many manage to have a more centralised government. I am suggesting that states are less necessary now than in the past.

I have always been a bit (not a lot) puzzled as to why there has been no serious move to redraw state boundaries. The logic for a number of states no longer exists, either because the politics of their formation no longer applies (e.g., Nevada) or the improvement in communications renders their continuance wasteful (why two Dakotas?). Surely Alabama and Mississippi could be united? as could Idaho and Montana, saving a substantial sum in state government. Bits of states could be hived off to form a more natural entity, such as northern Minnesota and Wisconsin with the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
 
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :
 
How would a similar proposal be met in Canada? Particularly if Quebec was involved?
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
It's kind of immaterial anyway. You fight elections with the electoral system your country's got, not the sort that you would design if you were allowed to start from scratch.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
cliffdweller
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
ISTM the two-vote state element in the college is of no great importance, and has far as I am aware has not been decisive in determining the outcome of any presidential election, at least in recent times. It's a red herring.
[Confused] How is it NOT a factor in this election? Is this not precisely the reason that HIllary lost, despite being ahead more than 2 million votes in the overall tally?

Trump 30 States = 60 college votes
Clinton 20 States = 40 college votes

If the 2- vote state element is removed the result is:

Trump 306-60 = 240 votes
Clinton 232-40 = 192 votes

Therefore Trump still wins without the 2- vote per state element
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Yes, Eutychus.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Combining small states would reduce their representation in Congress so would never be allowed. Same with dividing up big states - chop up California into several pieces and we'd have more Senators. It's not administrative convenience or sense that matters, it's power.

Trump has now gone against decades of carefully worked out US foreign policy and had a chat with Taiwan's president. I am no huge fan of much is US foreign policy, but I do appreciate that people generally sit down and think about it before making a move. If Trump persists in conducting it on the fly, he stands a good chance of getting us all killed.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Trump 30 States = 60 college votes
Clinton 20 States = 40 college votes

If the 2- vote state element is removed the result is:

Trump 306-60 = 240 votes
Clinton 232-40 = 192 votes

Therefore Trump still wins without the 2- vote per state element

This is because Representatives are not, in fact, doled out among the states based on equal numbers of population. In California each Representative represents 465k people. In Arkansas, 29k. So the House is skewed toward smaller states also. Grossly so.

Source

[ 03. December 2016, 16:34: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Mousethiief, I think you are confusing the ratio of population per state senator not United States Senator. That has nothing to do with the distribution of electors in the electoral college. (Check your source).
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
House representation isn't as skewed as that, and it's not so clearly in favor of small states; the most over-represented per (voting) House seat are in small states (RI, WY, WV) but so are some of the most under-represented (MO, DE, SD). Basically it's a small-integer problem - states just under the cutoff for getting a second rep will be under-represented; states just over will be over-represented.

But even if you equalized the representation so that each state got a number of electors strictly proportional to its population, Trump still would have won if all the states were winner-take-all, as nearly all of them now are: although she won a plurality of the popular vote overall, the 20 states Clinton won have 43% of the population.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Mousethiief, I think you are confusing the ratio of population per state senator not United States Senator. That has nothing to do with the distribution of electors in the electoral college. (Check your source).

Here is a mjor flaw in how the electoral college is set up.

quote:
most states have an all-or-nothing approach to the Electoral College. A candidate can win a state by just a handful of votes but get all the electors. That happened in 2000, when George W. Bush, after much dispute, won Florida by 537 votes out of about 6 million and got all 27 electoral votes. He won the presidential election but lost the national popular vote that year.
{From a Huffington Post article on the 2012 election.)

So not only is the electoral college a misrepresentation of the population in general, but of many states as well.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
The thing about states is that they are essentially 50 tiny (or not so tiny) cultures. Each has its own origin story (one of the thirteen colonies? Part of the Louisiana Purchase? Spanish or Russian history?). Each came into the Union at different times and under different circumstances—Texas was briefly an independent republic; California history involves a military “do-over” if I recall correctly, in which someone raised a flag a couple days early and had to take it down, then officially do it right a few days later. Hawaii had royalty. Pennsylvania had a considerably more relaxed history of religious tolerance than its neighbors with a lot of Quaker influence. Missouri was one of the states that came into the Union in pairs, one slave and one free, in order to keep the numbers balanced.
As a result, each state has its own local cultural traditions (including food, language, architecture, etc.) California is heavily influenced by Spain and Mexico, of course, but also by Asia (Chinese laborers were IRC the first big influx). School flyers always came home in Spanish as well as English. Oklahoma had Indian territory, where some of my ancestors lived. Louisiana of course has a heavy French influence.
Civil War history divides the states still. There are Northern states, former Confederate states, and states like Missouri, where you can find monuments to both sides—the result of being caught in the middle. There are also states like California for whom the Civil War is largely “something that happened elsewhere” and does not loom nearly so large in the public consciousness as it does elsewhere.
There are climate and weather differences—desert, coastal regions, forest, Great Plains. There are industry differences—Michigan with its auto industry has had very different concerns to Iowa with farming, or California with fruit growing and Silicon Valley and communications/media.
The point I’m trying to make is that these 50 cultures grew from the bottom up to form the United States—it was never the case that someone in the federal government simply marked out 50 administrative divisions which were more or less arbitrary and called it good. Which is why it is virtually impossible to imagine simply redrawing state boundaries or combining states without a huge mess. The people would refuse. Imagine what it would be to expect, say, Scotland, Wales, and England to give up their own distinctness and form one big blob. Not happening.
(This, by the way, is why the people of Washington D.C. just voted to petition for statehood. They did not vote to ask to be absorbed by either neighboring state, which would have made more sense, administratively speaking. They have their own culture, their own industry (government, ach!) and want to be treated as the states are. But separately, on their own.)
And this (the culture thing) is the deepest reason why the electoral college (and Congress) give every state a guaranteed allotment of representatives. It is not, and has never, been about simply dealing with individuals in the population as a whole. The U.S. has always had to give voice, not just to persons, but to each of those 50 cultures I mentioned—that is, the states. It is the states which built the Union. It was never the other way around. Even within the gigantic semi-empty-slate territories, it was left to the local people to get their act together, establish a government, and petition for admission as a state—or not, as they chose. The proto-state had to start it.
No state is going to accept the federal government hacking away at it. (It MAY accept its own population choosing to redraw stuff, but those weirdos from Washington? Heck no.) No state is going to give up its precious two senators in Congress, or the corresponding bare minimum number of electors in the college, no matter how low its population. A state is a living community, a group organism of sorts, if you will. And it’s not going to accept being voiceless. (IMHO the only people who would consider such possibilities are those who come from high population states, as they know they will have a voice regardless.)

Oh, and it's not going to allow the feds to dictate how its electors get used either. Whether all its electors vote as a bloc, or whether they get apportioned to reflect the state popular vote--and what happens in the case of a faithless elector--those are local state considerations, and the federal government gets no say in it. You'd probably need a Constitutional amendment to rip that decision out of individual state hands.

[ 03. December 2016, 19:02: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
To me that's an argument for precisely why the EC should be eliminated. We aren't apt to redraw the arbitrary state lines, but as long as they are drawn in this way, it means certain interests are over-represented and others are under-represented. Some special interests fall along geographical lines (e.g. rural vs. urban, immigration) but others much less so (disabilities, LGBT issues). The current division amplifies division and advocates for some special interests over others.

Of course, changing anything about the current system which is pretty much impossible-- precisely because it is already stacked with representatives who advocate for those prioritized geographical special interests and therefore have no motivation to change anything to advocate for different (non-geographical interests).
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If you want to get rid of the electoral college, I have one question for you: If this election had turned out the other way (and how I wish it did!), would you honestly still want the EC gone?

Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If you're going to kill the thing, first figure out how you're going to handle fairness to places like Alaska.

Again that begs the question. What you're describing as "fair" is that in addition to a slightly disproportionate advantage in the House of Representatives and a massively disproportionate advantage in the Senate, the people of Alaska also need to have a disproportionate amount of influence over the selection of the President. Left unsaid is why this qualifies as "fair". What so special about the 710,231 residents of Alaska (2010 census) that makes it "fair" to boost their electoral influence in a way that's not extended to the 839,631 residents of Kern County, California? I'm not convinced by your argument that an oil rig worker in Kern County (primary economic activities: agriculture and fossil fuel extraction) has a "shared interest" with a computer engineer in Santa Clara County (so they can be lumped together in an electorally disadvantageous configuration) but an Alaskan oil rig worker is so different he needs his vote boosted.

Even if we were to accept that this is in some way "fair", it seems to fail in practical terms. How many visits did each candidates in the last election make to Alaska? What proportion of their advertising budget was spent trying to convince Alaskans that Alaskan concerns would be addressed? If the purpose of the electoral college is to make the president address the concerns of Alaska (and other low-population states), it would seem to fail on those terms.

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
ISTM the two-vote state element in the college is of no great importance, and has far as I am aware has not been decisive in determining the outcome of any presidential election, at least in recent times. It's a red herring.

The 2000 election comes to mind. Without the +2/state boost the final count would have been Gore 224, Bush 211. That seems like "recent times" to me, but YMMV.

Now I'll agree that the +2 EV/state is usually a minor factor, but it's just one of a number of anti-democratic thumbs the electoral college puts on the political scales. A far more serious one is the winner-take-all system, which is not constitutionally mandated but is an obvious logical outgrowth of the development of the party system. If a state's electoral weight all goes to the candidate with a plurality of the votes you can end up with a result where a razor-thin margin in just enough states carries a victory despite massively lopsided losses elsewhere, leading to a winner who received fewer votes than his chief opponent. In other words, the situation in 2016.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
To me that's an argument for precisely why the EC should be eliminated. We aren't apt to redraw the arbitrary state lines, but as long as they are drawn in this way, it means certain interests are over-represented and others are under-represented. Some special interests fall along geographical lines (e.g. rural vs. urban, immigration) but others much less so (disabilities, LGBT issues). The current division amplifies division and advocates for some special interests over others.

Of course, changing anything about the current system which is pretty much impossible-- precisely because it is already stacked with representatives who advocate for those prioritized geographical special interests and therefore have no motivation to change anything to advocate for different (non-geographical interests).

Presumably LGBT and disability populations are spread evenly, as you point out, and therefore should be fine with the current representation. (The responsibility to lobby one's neighbors is a universal one, and not something to duck by gerrymandering borders or Macgyvering election procedures. Particularly because doing so will only set up further problems for an endless set of other special interests, which will then call for new gerrymandering.)

Racial and ethnic stuff is NOT spread evenly,

*****************

Look, as long as we have differences at all (geographical, climate, racial, ethnic, linguistic, sexual, whatever) any system will appear to overrepresent certain interests and underrepresent others. That includes the system of a straight popular vote. Swapping our current system for another (of any stripe) is not going to change the problem. It will just shove it off on to a different set of people. How is that fair?

What we really should NOT do is to visualize the kind of country we personally want to see (left-leaning, Democrat, LGBTwhatever, city-dwelling, and so forth) and then redraw the lines, or the election process, to get what we want. Because a) it's not fair, and b) we'll get screwed in the end anyway, because people change. 100 years from now whatever special interests we are attempting to privilege will have morphed into something else, and we'll have to MacGyver the process again. (For example, it's not completely impossible that the urbanization we see now could reverse itself with the rise of doing-everything-over-the-internet. At which point everything has to be revisited again, with the same dislocation to society. And shouts of unfairness.)
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Look, as long as we have differences at all (geographical, climate, racial, ethnic, linguistic, sexual, whatever) any system will appear to overrepresent certain interests and underrepresent others. That includes the system of a straight popular vote.

How would a straight popular vote over- or under-represent interests?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Presumably LGBT and disability populations are spread evenly,

Well, this is problematic. Even if LGBT people are born with the same percentage in any given area, they will not be treated the same. Let's give the commonly accepted percentage of just under 4%. This means, in lower population density, a lot fewer people and that means less exposure and less influence. It is no accident that acceptance of LGBT+ follows population density. And not only will you have more LGBT+ people, those born in rural areas will more likely move to areas where there is support and acceptance, thereby skewing the numbers further.

[ 04. December 2016, 00:23: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Look, as long as we have differences at all (geographical, climate, racial, ethnic, linguistic, sexual, whatever) any system will appear to overrepresent certain interests and underrepresent others. That includes the system of a straight popular vote.

How would a straight popular vote over- or under-represent interests?
Okay, let's take a very real example. Imagine you live in California (along with roughly 39 million other people.) You need water, because most parts of the state are undersupplied for the number of people living there and growing fruit etc. You therefore hold certain views about the Colorado River, which supplies much of California's water needs.

Your sister lives in Arizona, along with less than 7 million other people. Her state, too, has an interest in the water of the Colorado (which, incidentally, gets to her state before it reaches yours).

Say we handle this water issue on a straight popular vote. Who do you think is going to win the bulk of the water, hands down, every freaking time?

This is why Arizona needs its two Senators in Congress. In the Senate, no state can simply overpower another one through pure population weight. Arizona gets a hearing just as California does, and the fact that one has vastly more people is accounted for in the House (where California gets 53 and Arizona only 9, as of 2013, anyway).

It's a balancing act.

And it would not be hard to think up parallel scenarios involving theoretical presidential candidates, which is why the number of electors is set equal to total number of reps in Congress, both House and Senate.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Presumably LGBT and disability populations are spread evenly,

Well, this is problematic. Even if LGBT people are born with the same percentage in any given area, they will not be treated the same. Let's give the commonly accepted percentage of just under 4%. This means, in lower population density, a lot fewer people and that means less exposure and less influence. It is no accident that acceptance of LGBT+ follows population density. And not only will you have more LGBT+ people, those born in rural areas will more likely move to areas where there is support and acceptance, thereby skewing the numbers further.
Who said anything about being treated the same? I'm talking about the number of human beings for whom this is an issue, and who can get politically active about it. Moving is a solution to personal needs, but not a solution to changing the country as a whole, which is presumably what you're wanting. And speaking mathematically, I don't see that you're going to be better off with a popular vote as opposed to an electoral vote. Remember, the heavy hitters in the electoral college are the high population states. These are precisely the ones that you are identifying as already LGBT friendly. Won't you get the same result?

Really, if you imagine a rather heartless chess player moving people all over the country at whim, the LGBT community / disabled / mentally ill / immigrants / etc. would be better served to leave the high population states and go and concentrate themselves in the lower ones. There they would quickly become a sizable percentage of the voting population (which is smaller) and be changing a hostile climate, to boot.

As for this,

quote:
Let's give the commonly accepted percentage of just under 4%. This means, in lower population density, a lot fewer people and that means less exposure and less influence.
I think you've got a math problem. If 4% of the population have influence amounting to x, scaling up the population (and the absolute number of people belonging in the 4%) does not translate into extra influence power. That is still x--because the number of people to be influenced has increased at the same rate.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Mousethiief, I think you are confusing the ratio of population per state senator not United States Senator. That has nothing to do with the distribution of electors in the electoral college. (Check your source).

So I see. Sorry about that.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
There are industry differences—Michigan with its auto industry has had very different concerns to Iowa with farming,

Actually they will share a lot more than you suppose. from the US department of Agriculture:
quote:
64 percent of all vegetable sales and 66 percent of all dairy sales come from the 3 percent of farms that are large or very large family farms.
This means those "family" farms are actually big business.
This does not include corporate farms or that farmers are beholden to corporations to sell their goods. Or the corporate entities that produce the equipment that family farms use. Or that family farms employ fewer people and can be as automated as they can afford to be.
The image of Ma and Pa farmer is one used politically, but not quite accurate any longer.
quote:

The point I’m trying to make is that these 50 cultures grew from the bottom up to form the United States

I'm not arguing this. I am saying that the reasons less valid today.
quote:

—it was never the case that someone in the federal government simply marked out 50 administrative divisions which were more or less arbitrary and called it good.

This is actually the case for a fair percentage of the states. But the specific reasons for the bordering of certain states are less relevant today and the source of unnecessary division.
quote:

Which is why it is virtually impossible to imagine simply redrawing state boundaries or combining states without a huge mess.

I'm not actually suggesting redrawing the state boundaries, just changing the way they are represented. A simple change that would help would be to assign all electors proportionately to the vote.

quote:
Imagine what it would be to expect, say, Scotland, Wales, and England to give up their own distinctness and form one big blob. Not happening.

This is how things are seen now by some. But remember England itself was many kingdoms.

quote:

The U.S. has always had to give voice, not just to persons, but to each of those 50 cultures I mentioned—that is, the states. It is the states which built the Union.

Not my understanding of US history. There has always been a mix of state v federal. From the country's very inception. The federal government has redrawn state boundaries more than once, it has curbed state ambition more than once.

Given that the lower density states do not wish to cede perceived importance, I think change would be difficult. This is not to say change is not needed or that the current system is equitable.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think you've got a math problem. If 4% of the population have influence amounting to x, scaling up the population (and the absolute number of people belonging in the 4%) does not translate into extra influence power. That is still x--because the number of people to be influenced has increased at the same rate.

So, 4 people out of 100 are LGBT+. This means in a group of 10, there may not be any. In a group of 100, there may only be 4. Those 4 will be directly opposing 96 people. In a city of 100,000, there would be 4,000 people. No 4,000 grouping of any sort will have direct contact with all the other 96,000, 4,000n people nhave a greater voice among 100,000 than 4 among 96. Everything scales this way.

BTW, if you are interested in grouping people by culture, here is a map that makes more sense.

[ 04. December 2016, 01:14: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
LC: I think I understand. I take under- or over-representation to be deviation from equal representation, of the one-person-one-vote variety, and so your example seems to me to illustrate exactly the opposite of what you seem to think it does. I'd say you're arguing that certain small groups of people should be over-represented, and certain large groups of people should be under-represented. In your usage, interests are under- or over-represented to the extent that you think they're going to be unfairly disadvantaged or advantaged, but your notion of fairness isn't linked to a principle of numerical equality.

quote:
Say we handle this water issue on a straight popular vote. Who do you think is going to win the bulk of the water, hands down, every freaking time?
Well, the 39 million people who need a lot more water than the 7 million, I should hope! Do you think the water should be split half for one state and half for the other? I don't find this example to be a very compelling argument for giving a small number of people a great deal more leverage. It's not like industrious Arizonans are themselves creating the water and then being robbed of the product of their virtuous labor by those lazy Californians who can't be arsed to make their own damn water.

I grew up in the most populous state and now live in a relatively small one; I don't think the small state bias in the EC is particularly fair, especially since the presidency isn't a regional office unlike those of representative or senator. If reform were on offer, though, I'd get rid of the winner-take-all aspect first in preference to fighting about the extra two electors.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Maybe it's even more fundamental than that. I'm not arguing for "fair" in the sense that one person has one right, which they themselves are fully aware of and control. Because people just aren't that smart.*

Why should California not have all the water? Because a) it's bad for the ecology (only humans get a vote) and b) because the more you divide up water on the basis of current population (rather than, say, logic and foreseeable consequences), the more you encourage people to move to the already highly-populated-and-thus-entitled California. You see the problem? At what point do we call a halt to increasing that supply? The Colorado is not an unlimited supply. But the number of people who would like to move to California if constraints like water are removed is overwhelming. It's a really, really nice place. I'd like to be there myself. And of course I'd be interested in the (population) "might is right" argument. Except for conscience...

* When I say "people aren't that smart," I am referring to the fact that we regularly vote like dumbasses on subjects that will eventually bit us in the butt, like climate change. Some of those issues may be localized (for now). And thus the people most concerned will be making a stink (as they have every right to do). But suppose the issue is in a low population area (like the planned pipeline through sacred sites in North Dakota). Don't you think that a nationwide popular vote on the issue is going to come down to "Eh, it's just a bunch of Indians out in the middle of nowhere. We need that pipeline for the rest of us"? I think it would. But fucking with people's religion and local ecology is a bad principle with bad effects on the whole nation's character. Seen as a moral issue, it has a national impact. But do I trust a straight popular vote to get it right? No. The local people need the voice that their Constitutionally-mandated two senators give them. Otherwise they have nothing but a single representative in the House--that's what low population gets you. And a potentially nation-wide impact gets buried.

Or suppose the local population is yuuuuugge as an unbeloved Person of Interest has it, and they use that population size to push a really iffy solution. That's another time you want to have a state-based vote (and not straight popular). Take the case of Florida--or any other low-lying coastal state. Sooner or later (sooner, if Trump has his way) they are going to face the question of what to do when the ocean comes lapping up their city streets. Move, or attempt shenanigans with dikes and levees and islands and .... ??? all of which are temporary and extremely expensive, not to mention hazardous and destructive of wildlife, and basically doomed in the (not very) long haul anyway.

If the Floridians are like ordinary people, they will naturally prefer the levee/dike solution. It HURTS to move--to leave beloved places behind--to start over. It sucks like a sucky thing. And naturally they will want the federal government (read: the whole United States) to pump money and labor into their preferred solution. Now this is a local problem, but if it's going to happen, it's going to take national resources. Should it happen? That's the question everyone's going to be asking. And the time will come when the sane answer will be "no," and the last people to see it will be the Floridians. Because human.

Do you see why I don't believe every human body should be handed a single vote's worth of power without the checks and balances that states' votes provide?

People don't always think about what's best for them, let alone for everybody. And given the opportunity, they screw their neighbors in the process of (maybe) figuring it out. Better to give those neighbors a fighting chance.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
lilBuddha, given that my understanding is based on study plus lifelong experience, and yours is based on a couple of articles plus I-have-no-idea, it's really hard to keep having this conversation. Essentially you are telling me I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. And since I cannot ask whether you have personal experience of the U.S. or not, it's hard to know what credence to give to you.

I do note that as far as I can see, no known American shipmates are chiming in to say that states are arbitrary and unimportant. They may wish the electoral college gone for other reasons, but I don't see them supporting the the idea that all that matters is one body, one vote, and where that body is located makes no difference. Would someone like to correct me?
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
Regarding representation level, and the perceived over-representation of interests of less populated states, and L.C.s water rights example.

I do have a question as to whether that isn't already addressed at the senate/congressional level? In fact the representatives at that level have an ongoing say on such issues, and so can represent the state interests as the issues arise.

At the presidential level, could it be time to consider the notion of president for the people, by the people? Rather than for the states, by the states? Genuine question from someone outside the system.

As previously noted, I appreciate the unique character of the states, and why the elections are framed as they are now. And I don't know that the system needs radical revamp as reaction to the 2016 election outcome. Every system will spit out odd results. (In fact, a system of direct representation would have meant a different campaign strategy, and different voter turnout in "safe" states.) It would certainly reduce the focus on the half dozen or so swing states.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
It is indeed addressed in Congress--I brought it up as a (sadly long-winded) way of pointing out that you could have parallel problems with a particular presidential candidate. Sheesh, alliteration!

Sorry if I'm being as clear as mud. I'm not saying it would have made a difference this time around, but that in some future race a parallel could arise, and you'd want those less populated areas to have a say.

There's also the fact that the president represents the third branch of our system, the executive, in distinction to the Congress (legislative). Congress has checks and balances between states vs population; one could argue that the executive branch ought to have similar ones. I think they're built into the electoral college.

[ 04. December 2016, 02:46: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
lilBuddha, given that my understanding is based on study plus lifelong experience, and yours is based on a couple of articles plus I-have-no-idea, it's really hard to keep having this conversation. Essentially you are telling me I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

I am not telling you that you do not know what you are talking about. I am telling you I see things differently.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I can tell that. But I think we've come down to the point of "I say this, you say that" and we're not getting any forwarder. We're into the realm of flat contradiction, and must agree to disagree.

[ 04. December 2016, 03:25: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
How would a similar proposal be met in Canada? Particularly if Quebec was involved?

There have been years of proposals to unite the four Atlantic provinces (NS having 920k, NB 751k, PEI 141k, and Newfoundland & Labrador 514k) and occasional mutterings about uniting the three prairie provinces. Québec nationalists used to muse on extending its boundaries into norther New Brunswick & Ontario, with substantial francophone populations). There is a specific constitutional provision against altering provincial boundaries or merging provinces without the consent of their legislatures and I imagine that provincial parliamentarians would be as enthusiastic as would US legislators to merge states.

In the case of either country, mergers and alterations would be highly rational, greatly advantageous, and extremely unlikely. And as one of my polisci friends noted, to even think that state structures should serve the citizenry rather than those who run the structures is downright bolshie.

I have often wondered what would happen if the electoral college, meeting in each state on the 19th December, would do as the authors of the constitution intended, and review the candidates and nominees, and then cast their votes. This is entirely the world of speculative fiction unless, as is not impossible with elderly candidates, of being faced with candidates expiring between the general election and the meetings of electors.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Just a small thing--in the US, at least, the people doing the resisting would be the citizenry, much more so than the legislators (who spend much of their lives out of state, after all, and have the temptations of self-serving gerrymamdering to contemd with). But the citizens are the ones who are emotionally attached. They aren't going to be happy on purely emotional grounds if (having been a lifelong Missouri mule) they wake up one day to find themselves Hawkeyes (Iowans). Think of it--new tax codes, new criminal laws, and worst of all, new football teams! The horror. [Razz]
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I think the lawmakers would be at least as resistant to changes in the power structure as the citizenry. There's no benefit to legislators in it. Not to mention other state workers. Combining small states would mean fewer state capital jobs of every kind at every level. No one's going to go for that.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
lilBuddha, given that my understanding is based on study plus lifelong experience, and yours is based on a couple of articles plus I-have-no-idea, it's really hard to keep having this conversation. Essentially you are telling me I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. And since I cannot ask whether you have personal experience of the U.S. or not, it's hard to know what credence to give to you.

I do note that as far as I can see, no known American shipmates are chiming in to say that states are arbitrary and unimportant. They may wish the electoral college gone for other reasons, but I don't see them supporting the the idea that all that matters is one body, one vote, and where that body is located makes no difference. Would someone like to correct me?

Um...yes. I'm an American shipmate, and I've been arguing vs your point all along.

I appreciate your greater knowledge, but I simply can't see the argument you're making here. What am I missing?

To review what's already been said so you can show me the step I'm missing: people in under-populated areas have particular interests (water usage, as you note, being a good one). The EC and Congressional rep. systems are "rigged" (to use loaded language, "designed" to be less so) to allow for that and give those areas an "amplified" vote to prevent those interests from being overwhelmed by the majority voters living in more populated areas.

But there are other minority groups which are not dispersed geographically-- disabilities, LGBT, etc. Their interests are just as important to them as the interests of those in underpopulated areas. They have the exact same danger of having their interests (e.g. marriage equality) ignored or trampled over by a majority population with different interests. BUT they are not given the same amplification that under-populated states are given. That seems incredibly unfair, and even though you've been dialoguing consistently with us about that for days, I still am not recognizing your essential argument about why this should be so.

You make the point that minority groups have to make their argument, to "sell" the majority on why their interests should be addressed. I agree. I just don't see why we're going to such extremes to assist one particular group in doing so without doing the same for others.

This scale-tipping seems to magnify the marginalizing effect for the non-geographic minorities. Not only do they have to content with the simple math of being the minority view, they also have to content with the additional multiplication of one interest groups' votes that are not necessarily aligned with their own. Marriage equality would seem to be a good example of this.

If populated/non-populated interests were the only interests that needed preserving, then why aren't we doing anything to preserve those interests within states? As noted above, the San Joaquin Valley in California is the most productive agricultural region in the world-- immensely important, and concerned about things like, yes, water rights. And yet it is sparsely populated, and thus generally outvoted by the vast majority of Californians clumped together in large urban areas along the coastline.

I'm a lifelong Californian, and have lived both in the high-density coastal areas as well as the very rural sparsely populated San Joaquin valley. As others have noted, the sparsely populated population is often portrayed in heroic terms-- the noble, struggling mom & pop farmer unable to come up against the interests of those wealthy big city businessfolks. But today this is not the norm. In many (though of course not all) of these under-populated areas, what you have is massive agri-businesses who's interests are already being amplified by the other major factor "rigging" the system: money. They have the wealth to exert undo influence over the legislature thru lobbying, etc. Which is why, for example, even though populous California gets an undo share of Colorado river water, a disproportionate percentage at a discount price goes to the underpopulated San Joaquin valley. Which might not be a bad outcome, given that we all need the food they grow. But it does show they're not exactly little David coming up against the massive coastal Goliath..

So again, despite all you're written I'm just not seeing the argument for advantaging this one particular special interest above all other special interests.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
to further pile on: if the states were as naturally organic and effective in representing shared interests as you seem to be arguing, I don't think they'd look like what we have. You have states that are very homogenous, able to "speak with one voice" because they are very similar in population. Then you have states (particularly the geographically larger ones) where you have vast differences in interests, economy and lifestyle-- California being a prime example-- it's not hard to choose 3 cities like Compton, San Jose, and Bakersfield that are so vastly different in their interests and needs that they might as well be three different states.

I don't think there's anything "natural" or "organic" about this. I think it began rather capriciously, with states coming into the union at very different times for very different reasons and in very different ways. This then was further manipulated in the normal sort of gerrymandering that political interests will do. But no, I don't see anything natural or essential to the division, especially when it comes to federal elections and federal policies/budgeting.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The point I’m trying to make is that these 50 cultures grew from the bottom up to form the United States—it was never the case that someone in the federal government simply marked out 50 administrative divisions which were more or less arbitrary and called it good.

I disagree that there are only (and exactly) 50 different cultures in the U.S. and that these happen to map exactly to state boundaries. Nor does it seem reasonable to argue that because each state is so culturally homogeneous its entire electoral weight can be concentrated unanimously in support of one presidential candidate.

To pick a real life example, you seem to be arguing that John Lewis and Lester Maddox lived in the same culture and therefore had the same political interests and views. The assumption could even be made that they both supported George Wallace for president in 1972, since that's who all of Georgia's presidential electors voted for.

I'd argue that reverse; that despite coming from the same state the cultures in which Lewis and Maddox lived were very different indeed, starting with the fact that Maddox could be reasonably certain that his constitutional rights would be respected while Lewis had good reason to believe othewise [violent imagery]. I'd further argue that Lewis lived in a culture much more similar to that inhabited by the rest of the "Big Six", despite the fact that there was only one other Georgian among them besides Lewis, and Maddox had much more in common, both culturally and politically, with non-Georgians like Orbal Faubus and T. E. Connor than he ever had with Lewis. Claiming that Lewis and Maddox share the same political interests because of shared geography is downright perverse.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Presumably LGBT and disability populations are spread evenly, as you point out, and therefore should be fine with the current representation.

Which, in your analysis, means that LGBT people and the disabled do not share a culture and therefore do not have any common political interests. All their political positions are allegedly the product of geography.

[ 04. December 2016, 14:46: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
If the state divisions were natural there wouldn't be so many straight state lines. The decision about where to draw California's northern and eastern boundaries was a political one. The southeastern border runs along the Colorado River, so is a natural boundary, but the straight lines are anything but. When they met in Monterey to create the state, they thought about including a lot more territory, but decided that they couldn't go as far east as where the Mormons lived because the Mormons weren't represented at the convention, and they also thought about how much representation the west would eventually have - they rightly figured that more western states would mean more influence for the west in Washington, DC. So they drew straight lines through the Sierras. Dividing Lake Tahoe between California and Nevada is not natural! And the exact line between California and Nevada was only settled in 1980 in the Supreme Court.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
How would a similar proposal be met in Canada? Particularly if Quebec was involved?

There have been years of proposals to unite the four Atlantic provinces (NS having 920k, NB 751k, PEI 141k, and Newfoundland & Labrador 514k) and occasional mutterings about uniting the three prairie provinces.
We could unite Manitoba with Kenora and west, separating it from Ontario. They are even in the same time zone.

I liked the idea of the Province of Buffalo which took in a bit of southern Manitoba, all of southern Saskatchean and Alberta. But Laurier had different ideas to prevent dethronement of Ontario and Québec, which may happen anyway.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I think the lawmakers would be at least as resistant to changes in the power structure as the citizenry. There's no benefit to legislators in it. Not to mention other state workers. Combining small states would mean fewer state capital jobs of every kind at every level. No one's going to go for that.

Agreed. The process TO a more equitable system is fraught, precisely because the system is currently designed for the outcome we see (as is usually the case). I'm not even sure how the citizenry could come together to bring about a change.

But that is a far different question than the question of whether or not there should be a change. I believe, for the reasons outlined above, the current system is rigged in ways that are not only unfair, but unjust and perpetuate a whole host of social ills, of which Trump's presidency is only the most obvious example. I think there are many, many alternative systems of representative government around the world we could turn to for a better system of representing the people as a whole while preserving the rights and interests of ALL minority groups.

What to do about it/how to get there-- well, yes, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
LC: I'm not at all convinced by your updated water rights argument. While I've got some sympathy for the position that majority rule should be limited to avoid the minority rights from being trampled, I think you've now gone far beyond that.

Now it seems you think the decisions of large numbers of people are inherently worse than those of small numbers of people. Arizona has seen a lot of growth in its population, despite severe water stress - but for some reason you think it makes sense for them to be given the power to throttle the growth of California. Why should the decisions of people in that state be privileged over those of people in California, just because Arizona is smaller? What makes you think small states won't make environmentally disastrous decisions?

Your Florida example is just bizarre. You're arguing that the preferences of people in a large state have to be subordinated to national opinion because "people aren't that smart" and they might be making a bad choice based on misperceptions of their own interest. But this seems to be exactly the kind of majoritarian position you were arguing against when it came to the interests of small states. I can't for the life of me understand why this means small states should have more representation. Aren't they just as likely to make bad choices based on misperceptions of their own interests? At least a one-person-one-vote framework doesn't imply that a person living in Wyoming should have more influence over federal spending in Florida than a person in California.
quote:
I do note that as far as I can see, no known American shipmates are chiming in to say that states are arbitrary and unimportant. They may wish the electoral college gone for other reasons, but I don't see them supporting the the idea that all that matters is one body, one vote, and where that body is located makes no difference. Would someone like to correct me?
For the record - as far as I can tell, you're the only American shipmate who's really pushing the vital importance of unequal representation in Congress or the EC. I think state boundaries are the result of historical contingencies and are largely arbitrary, and I don't think they're particularly meaningful as demarcations of 50 separate cultures. I seriously doubt that there's such a huge cultural distinction between North Dakota and South Dakota that it's imperative for each of them to have 2 senators. There's probably a bigger difference between eastern and western Washington.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

So again, despite all you're written I'm just not seeing the argument for advantaging this one particular special interest above all other special interests.

Obviously I'm doing a crap job of communicating.

I am not saying that one special interest ought to be privileged above all others. I am saying that there is a way (which we are already using, and I don't think we should stop using) to rectify one particular problem with one particular set of special interests.

As for other special interests that don't get this treatment, that sucks. I don't know how to fix those situations, as they are not geographically based. And to avoid dragging dead horses further into this thread, I'm going to talk about disability from this point on.

Disability stuff is a special interest. It needs rectifying, it needs a voice. But it isn't geographically related and it therefore cannot be rectified by giving a geographical area two guaranteed votes in the EC and in Congress. Some other way will have to be found.

But in the meantime, there's no reason we should not go on rectifying the geographical problems. You don't quit treating leukemia because there's no cure for glioblastoma.

That's all I was saying.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Back to the culture thing.

People, seriously. do you really think I'm such an idiot to think that everyone within a certain state border is going to be little clones of one another?

Apparently you do.

I think I need to bail out of this discussion. I'm making a huge FAIL when it comes to communication. Sorry, folks.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Back to the culture thing.

People, seriously. do you really think I'm such an idiot to think that everyone within a certain state border is going to be little clones of one another?

Apparently you do.

I think I need to bail out of this discussion. I'm making a huge FAIL when it comes to communication. Sorry, folks.

I understand you're bowing out, but I think it's fair to respond to your complaint that your argument is being unfairly caricatured.

You said:
quote:
The thing about states is that they are essentially 50 tiny (or not so tiny) cultures.
That's what people are contesting, not some nonsense about clones. I don't believe state boundaries are at all significant markers of cultural distinction. And I don't see any reason at all to believe that small states are more likely to make wise decisions - certainly not to the extent that would justify the nine smallest states with a combined population of 8 million having an equal voice to the 20 million residents of Florida, on a matter which (in your hypothetical example) is critical to Floridians and would entail the deployment of resources to which Floridians had made a substantially larger contribution than those small state residents.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I question whether the Missouri suburbs of St. Louis are more different from East St. Louis, IL, than inner city Chicago is from its more affluent suburbs. Or indeed are Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, and North Dakota all that different culturally from one another, compared to the difference between Watts and Beverly Hills, all within the city limits of Los Angeles? This whole "50 distinct cultures" thing is wishful thinking at best, total crap in reality.

[ 04. December 2016, 18:22: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Okay, let's take a very real example. Imagine you live in California (along with roughly 39 million other people.) You need water, because most parts of the state are undersupplied for the number of people living there and growing fruit etc. You therefore hold certain views about the Colorado River, which supplies much of California's water needs.

Your sister lives in Arizona, along with less than 7 million other people. Her state, too, has an interest in the water of the Colorado (which, incidentally, gets to her state before it reaches yours).

Say we handle this water issue on a straight popular vote. Who do you think is going to win the bulk of the water, hands down, every freaking time?

This is not "a very real example". The federal government of the United States is a representative democracy, rather than a direct one, and does not submit public works projects or public resource allocations to a referendum or plebiscite. I suppose you could posit a case where the distribution of Colorado River water became the primary campaign issue in a presidential election. Even in that case the pro-California candidate would still have the advantage, 55 electoral votes to 11.

How about an actual "real example"? What if Americans were tasked with selecting someone to administer the powers of the executive branch of the federal government? One way would be conduct this process the same way the chief executive is selected in every other state, county, and municipal election: by having citizens vote and whoever has the most votes at the end of the process wins.

On the other hand you claim that this is unfair (but not so unfair it bothers you about every other elected post in the U.S.) and a more equitable way to proceed would be for citizens to vote by state, for those states to be given a certain weight based mostly (but not entirely) on population, and then for the entire electoral weight of each state to be awarded as a bloc to the plurality winner of that state regardless of electoral margin. And this would be fairer because culture or something.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Obviously I'm doing a crap job of communicating.

No, I just think that the electoral college system as it presently exists is indefensible in pragmatic or philosophical terms. The flaws are fairly obvious to any mathematical examination and the fact that it's produced two anti-democratic results in the past five elections means that this is a persistent problem.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

So again, despite all you're written I'm just not seeing the argument for advantaging this one particular special interest above all other special interests.

Obviously I'm doing a crap job of communicating.

I am not saying that one special interest ought to be privileged above all others. I am saying that there is a way (which we are already using, and I don't think we should stop using) to rectify one particular problem with one particular set of special interests.

As for other special interests that don't get this treatment, that sucks. I don't know how to fix those situations, as they are not geographically based. And to avoid dragging dead horses further into this thread, I'm going to talk about disability from this point on.

Disability stuff is a special interest. It needs rectifying, it needs a voice. But it isn't geographically related and it therefore cannot be rectified by giving a geographical area two guaranteed votes in the EC and in Congress. Some other way will have to be found.

But in the meantime, there's no reason we should not go on rectifying the geographical problems. You don't quit treating leukemia because there's no cure for glioblastoma.

That's all I was saying.

Yeah, but giving the geographic interests an amplified voice and NOT giving the non-geographic minority interests a similarly amplified voice seems to only marginalize those minority interests all the more. Any group that's in the minority is going to be disadvantaged in a democracy-- as you said before, you've got to advocate loudly or persuasively enough to convince the majority to provide for your interests even if there is no benefit for the majority. That's just inherent to the suckiness of being in a minority position.

BUT-- by privileging this ONE group-- non-densely populated areas-- over all others you really are creating even greater marginalization. The "rectifying" you're talking about really creates an artificial majority voice for the non-densely populated areas-- essentially creating TWO majorities (the actual majority and the artificial one) that any minority interests have to appeal to in order to see their minority needs addressed. You have made life doubly hard for those groups.

Further, the nature of non-densely populated areas is often mischaracterized. In some cases, yes, "sparsely populated" does translate into poverty-- rural areas, small towns where the loss of a key industry has left the town hollowed out, parts of Appalachia or Alaska. They are sparsely populated because those who can get out, do.

But other places are sparsely populated for the exact opposite reason: because they are such attractive places to live that wealthy people come in, buy up huge swaths of land, drive up prices. They are densely populated precisely because the wealthy can afford to buy enough house/land to set them far apart from their neighbors. This for example would be the key difference between East L.A. or South-Central and the Westside. Parts of Wyoming and Montana, some of the less urban areas of Hawaii show this sorts of discrepancy. I'm not sure we need to provide a built-in mechanism to give more political power to the wealthy-- their money has always given them plenty of access, even before Citizen's United. So whatever inequities the EC is designed to address seem to me to be accomplished so clumsily and inaccurately as to create more inequity, not less.

Speaking again, as an American-- albeit one from a large & populous state.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
Dave W.:
quote:
The problem may simply be incoherence in the WaPo article itself:
quote:
In between those elections, U.S. economic activity has grown increasingly concentrated in large, “superstar” metro areas, such as Silicon Valley and New York.
In what sense has economic activity grown increasingly concentrated if the counties in question have about the same share of the economy as before?
It’s possible they were extrapolating that since Clinton won fewer counties than Gore, but more of the economy, economic output has condensed within counties that both Clinton and Gore won. They don’t cite any data and it seems very possible to me Gore won some of the low output counties that Trump took this time and that accounts for the difference. The Brookings article makes no mention of concentration within specific metro areas.

In terms of the outsized place of large metropolitan areas in the economy, and the concentration of income in these areas; I do believe that is going on (irrespective of whether or not that had any effect on the election). The U.S. Department of Commerce numbers for 2012 have the ten largest metropolitan areas responsible for 34% of the national GDP. A 2013 report prepared for the U.S. Conference of Mayors show that the GDP of the top ten metro areas is more than the combined GDP of 36 states. Someone took the data in that report and mapped it here. This article is interesting as well showing the uptick in employment rates in large cities.

None of that may have had an effect on this election. It seems to me inevitable that it will, given the power the Electoral College still has in deciding who is president.
quote:
I was referring to your surprise that Clinton won low income voters, a fact that contradicted what you said you expected.
Trump carrying this demographic was not what I expected (Trump winning was also not what I expected). What I said, having looked at the Brookings tiled map of income by county, is that I would not be surprised if Trump carried median level income voters below $50k given the number of low economic output counties he won. Turns out I was not surprised because he didn’t, but I would also say I was not surprised that Clinton did. So this was not a negation of something I was looking for. Just for clarity.
quote:
And if I had, I doubt it could be entirely based on "data" - certainly not just on things at the level of county wealth statistics. It would have to take into account such things as the fact people's preference for Trump over Clinton was better predicted by their belief that Obama is a Muslim than by their level of economic anxiety, the collapse of the Republican party establishment's role as gatekeeper to its own nomination process, and the Democratic party's own severe but different failures in that process.
Fair enough, but taking in to account there might be errors with the way the economic data is collected or confusing ways to present it, those statistics I think have a lot of reach and depth in terms of what the numbers help us understand; and hopefully minimize subjectivity. The analysis you mentioned is certainly interesting, and gives a lot more credence to vote behavior being dictated by antipathy and not economic self interest. Based on what I read about the underlying data, it came from an online poll of 1,000 individuals carried out around the time of the primaries. I’m sure such data has its own issues in terms of drawing broad conclusions.

I do believe in at least some critical way shifts in the economy played a part in what happened. I have to believe Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania had to have voters in some substantial numbers that went Trump that likely voted for Obama previously (and perhaps more than once).

Changing the subject, I am interested to see where the Democrats go from here. I can’t say so far I’ve seen a lot to indicate any major changes in direction or strategy. Pelosi keeping her position seems to be an indication of maintenance of the status quo.

[ 05. December 2016, 02:02: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Changing the subject, I am interested to see where the Democrats go from here. I can’t say so far I’ve seen a lot to indicate any major changes in direction or strategy. Pelosi keeping her position seems to be an indication of maintenance of the status quo.

Yeah, that doesn't exactly excite me. And the election for DNC chair doesn't inspire hope -- Howard Dean has pulled out, Keith Ellison turns out to have some very serious baggage, and I've never heard of the other people in the running.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:

I do believe in at least some critical way shifts in the economy played a part in what happened. I have to believe Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania had to have voters in some substantial numbers that went Trump that likely voted for Obama previously (and perhaps more than once).

There is some evidence emerging that fewer voters switched than might look to be the case from looking at the bottom line figures, it looks like there a reasonably large factor was democratic voters staying at home, and more republicans turning up to vote.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
There is an ongoing pattern of red states voting for what will actually do them harm. This cycle we may finally see that to the max.
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Back to the culture thing.

People, seriously. do you really think I'm such an idiot to think that everyone within a certain state border is going to be little clones of one another?

Nope, I didn't really. As I said about a week ago on this thread, one thing I note (and kind of like) about when I meet someone from the US of A is when introducing themselves they identify by state, with a bit of pride. There's something about state identity which makes it more than just an arbitrary boundary. That plus state laws.

Of course state borders (like national borders) are arbitrary administrative borders. But some administrative divisions are more arbitrary meaning than others. For example, electorate boundaries in NZ get redrawn every few years to reflect population. So there's every possibility that the electorate I am in will change in the next few years. Or even cease to exist. And stuff all people identify with their electorate.

But I don't think anyone was suggesting redrawing state boundaries every 10 years to reflect population changes. Instead, there is suggestion that EC representation be amended to be more or less proportional to population to state populations, or in fact the presidential process be amended to reflect the will of wider population of America
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:

I do believe in at least some critical way shifts in the economy played a part in what happened. I have to believe Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania had to have voters in some substantial numbers that went Trump that likely voted for Obama previously (and perhaps more than once).

There is some evidence emerging that fewer voters switched than might look to be the case from looking at the bottom line figures, it looks like there a reasonably large factor was democratic voters staying at home, and more republicans turning up to vote.
As well as (arguably) the GOP doing a really good job of creating barriers for certain marginalized groups to voting in key battleground states.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
A consequence of non-compulsory voting. Some who were prepared to vote for Obama were not prepared to vote for Clinton and so did not vote at all. Had voting been compulsory, some of those forced to vote may have voted informal or defaced their ballot papers, but perhaps enough would have preferred to vote for Clinton rather than take the risk of a Trump victory.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Alec Baldwin promised to stop his "SNL" impression of Trump...if Trump releases his tax returns! (Yahoo)
[Snigger]
 
Posted by fausto (# 13737) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It is the states which built the Union. It was never the other way around. Even within the gigantic semi-empty-slate territories, it was left to the local people to get their act together, establish a government, and petition for admission as a state—or not, as they chose. The proto-state had to start it.

I disagree. The original 13 states formed the federal Union, because the more consensual Articles of Confederation had proven to be ineffective, and thereafter the Federal government has always exercised sovereign authority over the states (with the limited exception of the "reserved powers"). The only independent sovereign governments that later joined the Union voluntarily were Vermont and Texas. All the rest were first Federal territories (except Maine, Kentucky, and West Virginia, which were formed by partitions of Massachusetts and Virginia). Yes, they chose voluntarily to convert from Federal territorial status to full statehood, but they were always (and still remain) a creation of the Federal government in the fist instance, rather than vice versa.

Moreover, during and after the Civil War it was Federal authority alone that preserved and rebuilt the Union, whereas advocates of state self-determination had sought to destroy it.

This may seem like a picky point, but it goes to the question of whether an Electoral College (and, for that matter, a bicameral legislature) that was conceived in part to reconcile and balance the interests of a small collection of formerly independent and sovereign states has outlived its purpose in a much larger federation comprised for the most part of arbitrarily created subdivisions of a single sovereign body politic.

Myself, I am less concerned with the inequites in the various states' voting power in the EC as I am with the erosion of the EC's other originally intended function as a safeguard against demagoguery. The framers of the Constitution did not intend the President to be elected by direct popular vote, nor did they anticipate the hegemonic rise of strong political parties. I think the party primary election system, combined with the laws that require a state's electors to be pledged in advance to one party's candidate or the other, have unwisely frustrated the original purpose. Instead of requiring a representative body of locally elected delegates from across the nation to deliberate on the choice, we now have what has become an increasingly vulgar and superficial popularity contest.

I've been saying for years (although nobody ever listens) that, if the EC is to be reformed, it should be reconfigured so that it is comprised of the states' actual representatives and senators in Congress meeting in joint session, rather than an equal number of anonymous electors previously pledged by law to a particular candidate. This would make the relationship between President and Congress more parliamentary and encourage a closer working relationship. It would also work against entrenched incumbency in Congress, and make the parties more responsive to the people rather than beholden to special interests, by making them compete harder in far more local congressional districts, to represent the voters on real issues of the moment rather than on their faithfulness orthodox institutional party ideologies. It would also help restore the original function of the EC to select effective administrators and weed out demagogues.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Not sure how your changes would be better, fausto.
Though you do not care about the inequities of representation, they are part of the problem and your proposal changes none of those. Short term representatives are no less likely to be beholden to special interests, rather more likely to be.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
fausto
quote:
I've been saying for years (although nobody ever listens) that, if the EC is to be reformed, it should be reconfigured so that it is comprised of the states' actual representatives and senators in Congress meeting in joint session, rather than an equal number of anonymous electors previously pledged by law to a particular candidate. This would make the relationship between President and Congress more parliamentary and encourage a closer working relationship.

My immediate reaction to this proposal are two-fold:

1 This system challenges the Separation of Powers because it makes the President dependent for his mandate on the members of Congress.

2. Were this system to be introduced the question of House redistricting would need to come under greater scrutiny, for although the numerical variation in the size of districts has been severely curtailed by Court interpretations of federal electoral law the delineation of boundaries has been left to the partisan preferences of state governors and legislators. In recent years Republican domination of redistricting in most states has been a factor in determining the partisan bias of the House. That bias, under fausto’s proposals, would become reflected in the choice of president as well.


To my mind, if the EC were to be reformed it would be for federal legislation to require that the college votes awarded to each state be distributed in proportion to the popular vote cast for each candidate. (The formula would have to be determined as well as the determination of which candidates should qualify for the distribution of the electoral votes). One problem would be disproportionality in states with few college votes- but there you are! Perhaps the system is unreformable.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
The separation of powers is overblown.

Parliamentary governments are also known as Responsible Government. The government is responsible to the legislature and is required to hold the confidence of the legislature in order to spend money, features the US lacks.

The US separated from the mainstream of parliamentary development a generation too early.

I much prefer the cut-and-thrust of Question Period to the snooze-fest of the US Congress anyway.
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Sober Preacher's Kid
quote:
The separation of powers is overblown
I'm inclined to agree with what you have to say, but I'm not sure that a root and branch reform of the US constitution was what fausto had in mind. Perhaps he did.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A cri de coeur. He's been a faithful rescuer all these years -- save us once more, Mr. Obama!
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
Some of you may have a vague memory from the job search thread that I was jerked around by a federal agency this summer- I took time off of work to fly out for a training, where I was assigned future work, and informally welcomed aboard. Two weeks later, I got a call that they had decided to go in a different direction.

Well, that agency just got a new boss. Ladies and gentlemen, your new SBA administrator, former pro wrestling queen Linda McMahon!

I don't know whether I dodged a bullet, or am really upset that I won't be witnessing the insanity from the inside.

I guess she has been working with an organization that aids and encourages women business owners, which is part of what the SBA does, so that may be part of it. The fact that she apparently contributed millions to a pro-Trump PAC and to the Trump foundation probably didn't hurt either.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I don't know whether I dodged a bullet, or am really upset that I won't be witnessing the insanity from the inside.

I think the insanity will be quite visible from the outside. From what little I've heard she doesn't sound as horrible as the new Secretary of Education who worked hard to get public school funds diverted to Christian education and managed to make Michigan's abysmal test scores sink lower.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I agree -- you're well out of it.

Over in the Washington POST, their conservative columnist calls upon Trump's evangelical supporters to atone. Poor girl, I do believe she has the process in the wrong order. Before you can atone, you need to admit guilt -- that you were wrong. And before you can admit you were wrong, you have to concede that it -was- wrong. In the words of the rock song, before you can eat your pudding, you have to eat your meat. I see no signs of that happening.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
I wonder how many evangelicals see Jennifer Rubin as a moral authority whose opinion matters?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
She used to be a major conservative flag-carrier -- her support of Mitt Romney was unflinching. But this cycle she's been steadily anti-Trump, so that I am finding her columns much more sensible.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
And the comments reveal how useless her pleas will be.

Unless there is some great revival in which all their hearts are remade within them and they recognise the lies they have been told as lies.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
She used to be a major conservative flag-carrier -- her support of Mitt Romney was unflinching. But this cycle she's been steadily anti-Trump, so that I am finding her columns much more sensible.

Evangelicals voted for Romney. Rubin thought the Republicans could abandon social conservatives and populists and win an election. Bless her heart. There just aren't that many rich people and hipster libertarians. Opinion columns are nice. Money is even better. Ultimately, somebody has to go to the polls and vote.
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The fact that she apparently contributed millions to a pro-Trump PAC and to the Trump foundation probably didn't hurt either.

<Hedgehog carefully stores comment away for the next time some naive Trump supporter comments how Trump will not be doing politics as usual...>
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Four million to the Trump Foundation, to put it in the black.
This is frightening.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
In other news.... It has been reported that Trump intends to remain executive producer of The Apprentice.

I look forward to NBC's news coverage, and claims of, "No, no. We're objective."
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I worry about the fate of Saturday Night Live, which is an NBC production. But I trust that SNL makes far more money for the network than Apprentice.

Meanwhile, we know that Trump is a grifter. There may be a reason why he is not divesting himself of his business holdings. He did promise to release his tax returns after he was elected. Of course the word 'after' is very elastic; the year 2100 is after his election.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
And the plot thickens...

"CIA Concludes Russian Interference Aimed To Elect Trump" (NPR).

{Expands fall-out shelter. Adds extra supply of dark chocolate, soft blankets and pillows, and comfort things.}
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And the plot thickens...

"CIA Concludes Russian Interference Aimed To Elect Trump" (NPR).

{Expands fall-out shelter. Adds extra supply of dark chocolate, soft blankets and pillows, and comfort things.}

Don't worry about the Russians bombing us. Why would they destroy what they spent so much time and money to buy?

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I worry about the fate of Saturday Night Live, which is an NBC production. But I trust that SNL makes far more money for the network than Apprentice.

I should think some other network would pick it up, or create something roughly equivalent.

[ 11. December 2016, 00:44: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Unusually, no less than Teen Vogue ventures into political analysis and points out Tiny Fingers' fondness for gaslighting.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And the plot thickens...

"CIA Concludes Russian Interference Aimed To Elect Trump" (NPR).

AIUI the interference consisted of hacking the Democratic National Committee and releasing the results to the public. If this threw the election to Trump, it is because the voters found some of the DNC e-mails objectionable enough that they turned against Hillary.

WikiLeaks says that the Russians were not their source. This may or may not be true. If the Russians could hack the website, it's quite likely that others could too.

It's also possible that nothing on the Republican National Committee website was as damaging as what was on the DNC website.

Moo
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And the plot thickens...

"CIA Concludes Russian Interference Aimed To Elect Trump" (NPR).

AIUI the interference consisted of hacking the Democratic National Committee and releasing the results to the public. If this threw the election to Trump, it is because the voters found some of the DNC e-mails objectionable enough that they turned against Hillary.
Not how it works. It is that it fuelled a perception. Elections are not won and lost by proper evaluation, but by perception and preconception. And if there was no bias, everyone's site would have been hacked.

[ 11. December 2016, 17:25: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
From the Atlantic, reports of a boost in church attendance. Clearly the perception that the AntiChrist has tiny fingers is taking hold.
And, the very next article, evangelicals shedding the name now made odious by Trumpkins.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And, the very next article, evangelicals shedding the name now made odious by Trumpkins.

Boy is that an exercise in doublethink. People who are dropping the name "evangelical" aren't doing so because it means the four basic tenets thingees. They're doing so because they believe it no longer does. The word has moved on; they wish to stay with the four thingees, but "Evangelical" no longer stands for that.

As for Evangelicals (whatever the word means now) holding the Donald's feet to the fire? I want some of what this guy is smoking. Good luck with that, buddy. You're in la-la land.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
From the Atlantic, [URL
And, the very next article, evangelicals shedding the name now made odious by Trumpkins.

Some of us even started a thread asking for suggestions...
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
From the Atlantic, [URL
And, the very next article, evangelicals shedding the name now made odious by Trumpkins.
[QUOTE][QUOTE]Originally posted by mousethief:
]Boy is that an exercise in doublethink. People who are dropping the name "evangelical" aren't doing so because it means the four basic tenets thingees. They're doing so because they believe it no longer does. The word has moved on; they wish to stay with the four thingees, but "Evangelical" no longer stands for that.

[Confused] As one of those anti-Trump evangelicals who has concluded the name has been irrefutably tainted-- yes, you are correctly assessing our position: we self-identified as "evangelical" due to the "Bebbington quadrilateral" of beliefs, we are seeing the name as now signifying something far, far different, so much so that the name no longer signifies something we want to be associated with. How is that "doublethink"???

[ 11. December 2016, 21:38: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
The author of the piece is assuming the word still means the older meaning, and seems to be implying that the former evangelicals rejecting the word still agree that it means the old meaning, and are being bloody-minded.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
The question is; do they regret what has been done in the name of Evangelical Christians, or this simply a rebranding exercise before continuing the same actions. Trump is a culmination of what the Republican party has become, not an aberration.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The question is; do they regret what has been done in the name of Evangelical Christians, or this simply a rebranding exercise before continuing the same actions. Trump is a culmination of what the Republican party has become, not an aberration.

Yeah but reread your post. You're conflating "evangelical" with "Republican" which is precisely the problem and why some of us non-Republican evangelicals are feeling the need to rebrand
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And the plot thickens...

"CIA Concludes Russian Interference Aimed To Elect Trump" (NPR).

AIUI the interference consisted of hacking the Democratic National Committee and releasing the results to the public. If this threw the election to Trump, it is because the voters found some of the DNC e-mails objectionable enough that they turned against Hillary.
There's also the allegation that the e-mails released are a combination of authentic and doctored communications. This would be consistent with past Russian kompromat operations. The e-mails released were also fairly selective. Nothing containing opposition research on Donald Trump, for example, has been released. Not proof, but we can infer a lot from that.

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
WikiLeaks says that the Russians were not their source. This may or may not be true. If the Russians could hack the website, it's quite likely that others could too.

Another possibility is Russian use of intermediaries, something else supposedly commonplace in past kompromat operations.

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
It's also possible that nothing on the Republican National Committee website was as damaging as what was on the DNC website.

It's also possible that info from the RNC hack is being held back for other reasons. Blackmail is one possibility that comes to mind. I'm still amazed that the one of America's major political parties has been publicly electronically compromised, the other major party has been privately electronically compromised, and the reaction from most Americans is to simply shrug it off.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm still amazed that the one of America's major political parties has been publicly electronically compromised, the other major party has been privately electronically compromised, and the reaction from most Americans is to simply shrug it off.

It's a worry, that. I suppose folks have become desensitised to all things hacking and fail to see the particular significance.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
I think it is that, in part. ISTM, it is also party because it was the parties that were hacked, not government websites and because what was revealed was either no big deal or fit into preconception
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
I wouldn't discount the effects of election fatigue, news overload and/or news withdrawal, either.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I wouldn't discount the effects of election fatigue, news overload and/or news withdrawal, either.

And I'd also wager that at least some Democrats are pretty fired up about these allegations. And with the Republicans, at least the Trump-worshippers among them are refusing to believe anything that would call into question the immaculate nature of their hero's ascensrion.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And the plot thickens...

"CIA Concludes Russian Interference Aimed To Elect Trump" (NPR).

AIUI the interference consisted of hacking the Democratic National Committee and releasing the results to the public. If this threw the election to Trump, it is because the voters found some of the DNC e-mails objectionable enough that they turned against Hillary.
There's also the allegation that the e-mails released are a combination of authentic and doctored communications. This would be consistent with past Russian kompromat operations. The e-mails released were also fairly selective. Nothing containing opposition research on Donald Trump, for example, has been released. Not proof, but we can infer a lot from that.
AFAIK the Democrats never said that any of the released material was faked.

Moo
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Croeses wrote:

quote:
Another possibility is Russian use of intermediaries, something else supposedly commonplace in past kompromat operations.


One thing I read was that the hackers appeared to be observing Russian holidays(which I assume means their hacking stopped on those days). Which made me wonder: Is hacking the kind of job where you observe the regular working schedule, 9 To 5, and holidays off? My guess woulda been that front-line espionage is the kind of job that doesn't really follow those sorta rules.

One thing I thought was that the holiday shutdowns might have been an attempt to make it appear as if the hackers were working for the Russian government, when in fact they were not.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Croeses wrote:

quote:
Another possibility is Russian use of intermediaries, something else supposedly commonplace in past kompromat operations.


One thing I read was that the hackers appeared to be observing Russian holidays(which I assume means their hacking stopped on those days). Which made me wonder: Is hacking the kind of job where you observe the regular working schedule, 9 To 5, and holidays off? My guess woulda been that front-line espionage is the kind of job that doesn't really follow those sorta rules.

One thing I thought was that the holiday shutdowns might have been an attempt to make it appear as if the hackers were working for the Russian government, when in fact they were not.

But the hackers, who are really Russians, knew that you would come to that conclusion, so they faked being non-Russian hackers faking being Russian.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Hoo boy! [Eek!]


"Electoral College Members Request Intelligence Briefing On Russia, Trump." (HuffPost)

quote:
Ten Electoral College members have requested an intelligence briefing on Russia’s meddling in the U.S. presidential election, a week before the group is scheduled to formally certify the results.

The bipartisan group made their case to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper in an open letter Monday, arguing that the information is essential to their duties as electors who are tasked to “elect a president who is constitutionally qualified and fit to serve.”

Citing Alexander Hamilton’s writing in The Federalist Papers, the electors argue Russian interference in the election must factor into their decision. In Federalist #68, Hamilton charged the Electoral College with preventing a “desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils.”

The article includes quotes from their request, and a link to the Federalist Paper on which it's grounded.

I'm glad they've done this--not only because Trump is already a disaster, and I still hold a [Votive] for the slight hope of a chance that Hillary might be chosen by the Electoral College. But because they're actually trying to do their job, and not just rubber-stamp the results.

Aside from the intense gravity of the situation, the wrangling could be fun.

[Two face]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Hoo boy! [Eek!]


"Electoral College Members Request Intelligence Briefing On Russia, Trump." (HuffPost)

quote:
Ten Electoral College members have requested an intelligence briefing on Russia’s meddling in the U.S. presidential election, a week before the group is scheduled to formally certify the results.

The bipartisan group made their case to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper in an open letter Monday, arguing that the information is essential to their duties as electors who are tasked to “elect a president who is constitutionally qualified and fit to serve.”

Citing Alexander Hamilton’s writing in The Federalist Papers, the electors argue Russian interference in the election must factor into their decision. In Federalist #68, Hamilton charged the Electoral College with preventing a “desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils.”

The article includes quotes from their request, and a link to the Federalist Paper on which it's grounded.

I'm glad they've done this--not only because Trump is already a disaster, and I still hold a [Votive] for the slight hope of a chance that Hillary might be chosen by the Electoral College. But because they're actually trying to do their job, and not just rubber-stamp the results.

Aside from the intense gravity of the situation, the wrangling could be fun.

[Two face]

I'm not sure if the EC will/would choose Hillary or if they would choose Pence or some other Republican. The electors who would be switching would be Republicans, chosen to represent the Republicans. They may choose Hillary because she won the popular vote-- and because it's the fastest path to a clean & fairly straightforward result. Or they may choose a Republican, just not Trump due to his been unqualified and having colluded with the Russians.

If 37 Trump electors switch, Trump doesn't have enough to win. If enough go to Hillary, she wins, but if instead the Republicans split so that no one gets 270, it goes to the House. Then we'll have to see what the Tea Partiers will do. We could end up with Paul Ryan, which is NOT a very good option for pretty much anyone who isn't rich, white & male-- but at least we wouldn't worry as much about his tweets starting a nuclear war.
 
Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :
 
On Russian hackers and holidays... if they are Russian, there's a damned good chance they are drunk on a holiday (I say this as a Russian). Seriously, it's a tradition. There's a reason the government decided to basically shut everything down between New Years and Orthodox Christmas (Jan. 7)... no one was working anyway because, yeah.. drunk.

On whether Trump is better or worse than a more typical Republican (who could potentially be chosen by the EC or the House): I think I'd actually rather have Trump. He's a joke, and I think he'd be treated by the international leaders as such. I don't think he'd be able to actually launch nukes on his own, on our side there are people who would stop him, and on the other side, I think he'd be treated as crazy uncle Harry who shows up at Thanksgiving ranting about how he want to kill all [insert currently demonized racial or religious group]. They would shake their heads and move on with things, because no one really wants a nuclear war just because Trump ran off at the mouth (or Tweet). The less stable world leaders who might react are always a risk anyway, Trump or no Trump.

But then what do I know? I was SURE Hillary would win.

And now I work for an Agency which will be run by a person who has a stated position of opposing pretty much everything we do. It's gonna be a fun time for the next 4 (or God forbid 8) years.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
A friend made me aware of this petition asking the Supreme Court to invalidate the election and order a new one. I've signed it and I've forwarded the link to everyone I know of like mind.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Anyuta wrote:

quote:
On whether Trump is better or worse than a more typical Republican (who could potentially be chosen by the EC or the House): I think I'd actually rather have Trump. He's a joke, and I think he'd be treated by the international leaders as such.
I can honestly say that, of all the major contenders for the GOP nomination this time around, if one of them had to win, I would rather it be Trump than anyone else. Kasich possibly excepted, but guys like Cruz and the heart-surgeon? Ugh.

And, getting to the appointments, if we HAVE to have a CEO as Secretary Of State, I'd prefer it be someone from a long-standing, high-profile known-entity like Exxon than, say, the creepy multilevel sales cult that Betsy DeVos is married into.

BIAS: My grandfather and both my parents all worked for the Canadian annex of Exxon(or whatever Standard-spin-off preceded it). My folks also did a few, mercifully brief months as Amway distributors. Trust me when I say I know which one is creepier.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
A friend made me aware of this petition asking the Supreme Court to invalidate the election and order a new one. I've signed it and I've forwarded the link to everyone I know of like mind.

While I have sympathy with anything designed to avoid a Trump presidency, the Supreme Court doesn't have the power to do what the petition seeks to have it do. The petition is essentially asking that the Supreme Court act unconstitutionally.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Oh I see, a sexually assaulting incompetent multi-times business cheat vulture capitalist is the best of the lot. I'm dreaming of a White Christmas for the banana republic. [Ultra confused] Ctl-alt-delete to that sort of alt-right thinking.
 
Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Oh I see, a sexually assaulting incompetent multi-times business cheat vulture capitalist is the best of the lot.

Sadly, on the GOP side, yes. At least among the current batch. I'm sure if you dig deep into the party somewhere there is a decent option, but if so they would likely never be supported by the base of the party. The current GOP makes Nixon look like a great guy. I'd trade them all in for Bush senior at this point (except he's old.. so Bush senior as he was when he was prez). not that I think he was great, but in comparison? yeah.

All these little false hope actions, petitions, hopes for faithless electors etc. are rather annoying. It's done. He's going to be president. We'll survive. It will set us back by many years, but we've lived through worse in our history, and we'll rebound. Pretending like it won't really happen just sets us up for another heartbreak when, in fact, it does on Jan 20. And impeaching him after the fact, well, do you really want Pence?? We (liberals) need to figure out how to mitigate, and how to take things back next time around. The wishful thinking really isn't helpful, IMHO.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
While I have sympathy with anything designed to avoid a Trump presidency, the Supreme Court doesn't have the power to do what the petition seeks to have it do. The petition is essentially asking that the Supreme Court act unconstitutionally.

I'm not so sure about that. Courts have the power to overturn elections in cases where the electoral process is hopelessly compromised. In fact, if I recall correctly you reside in a state where a federal court recently exercised exactly that power. This has never been done in the case of a presidential election, but the basic principle is the same. I'm dubious that a strong enough case can be made that the recent presidential race falls into the "hopelessly compromised" category, but saying that this power doesn't apply to this particular case is not the same as arguing that they don't have that power at all.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
A friend made me aware of this petition asking the Supreme Court to invalidate the election and order a new one. I've signed it and I've forwarded the link to everyone I know of like mind.

While I have sympathy with anything designed to avoid a Trump presidency, the Supreme Court doesn't have the power to do what the petition seeks to have it do. The petition is essentially asking that the Supreme Court act unconstitutionally.
Indeed...but for the fun it...let's count the ways.

Way Number 1: The Supreme Court cannot rule on a petition. One party with standing must file suit against another party with standing. This brings us to...

Way Number 2: The Supreme Court only has original jurisdiction in a very few instances outlined by the constitution. In all of those cases, either a state or the United States must be a plaintiff. So, to get to the Supreme Court, individual cases would have to be filed in state court or federal district courts. This brings us to...

Way Number 3: The constitution allows each state to choose the method of selecting their electors. So, one would have to prove that Russian interference violated state election laws or federal law in every single state. Your going to need more than a newspaper article to get that. Instead, you'll need a fact finding trial followed by state and federal appeals to reach the Supreme Court. Let's assume the case reaches the Supreme Court. This brings us to...

Way Number 4: The Supreme Court might theoretically rule that the results of the elections in all fifty states are invalid. However, they cannot set a new election date. The constitution allows congress to set election date. Arguably, the House and Senate could just choose a President and Vice President on January 6th. Theoretically, at most and this would be stretching it, the Supreme Court could order the House and Senate to call for new elections. This brings us to...

Way Number 5: Congress can set new election dates. However, in the meantime, each state can change the way they choose their electors and elect the ones already chosen in the last election. Keep in mind, Republicans control the state legislatures in a majority of the states.

In any event, the case will never reach the Supreme Court. If it does, you would need Anthony Kennedy and the Democratic appointees to all agree. Kennedy often favors the rights of individuals over the rights of the state. However, Kennedy is a federalist in that he almost always favors states rights over the federal government. Remember it was Roberts who saved Obamacare not Kennedy.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Way Number 2: The Supreme Court only has original jurisdiction in a very few instances outlined by the constitution. In all of those cases, either a state or the United States must be a plaintiff. So, to get to the Supreme Court, individual cases would have to be filed in state court or federal district courts.

[nitpicking] Technically Art. III, §2 of the U.S. Constitution states "In all Cases . . . in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction." They need not be the plaintiff. [/nitpicking]
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
While I have sympathy with anything designed to avoid a Trump presidency, the Supreme Court doesn't have the power to do what the petition seeks to have it do. The petition is essentially asking that the Supreme Court act unconstitutionally.

I'm not so sure about that. Courts have the power to overturn elections in cases where the electoral process is hopelessly compromised. In fact, if I recall correctly you reside in a state where a federal court recently exercised exactly that power.
Not quite. The court did not throw out the results of any elections. It did order that a special election be held, essentially reducing terms from two years to one year.

But the main distinguishing factor between that and the petition is that there was actually a lawsuit and a trial. Yes, if a proper lawsuit is filed, a number of remedies might be available, whether in the trial court or on appeal.

But the petition simply asks SCOTUS—in the absence of any actual legal proceeding, much less any kind of developed factual record—to step in, declare the election invalid and order new elections.

Federal courts have no constitutional power to do anything unless they have an actual case or controversy, brought by a plaintiff with standing, before them. No such plaintiff has brought a case here, so no ability for any federal court, including SCOTUS, to act. That's why what the petition appears to seek would be unconstitutional.

Also, what Beeswax Altar said.

[ 13. December 2016, 17:21: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
While I have sympathy with anything designed to avoid a Trump presidency, the Supreme Court doesn't have the power to do what the petition seeks to have it do. The petition is essentially asking that the Supreme Court act unconstitutionally.

I'm not so sure about that. Courts have the power to overturn elections in cases where the electoral process is hopelessly compromised. In fact, if I recall correctly you reside in a state where a federal court recently exercised exactly that power.
Not quite. The court did not throw out the results of any elections. It did order that a special election be held, essentially reducing terms from two years to one year.
Given that the election stipulated that the winner would hold office for two years and the federal court threw out that result, that seems a very strained interpretation of not throwing out the results.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
Semantics maybe—I would not describe it as throwing out the results, because all candidates elected will in fact take office. I would describe it reducing, in this article instance, the term of office set by the Constitution from two years to one year. Consider it strained if you like. As you said, this happened in the state where I live, and I haven't heard anyone here describe it as throwing out the results of the election.

But as I said, lots of remedies might be available to a court if the matter is properly before it, including ordering new elections. The problem here is not that a court can never order new elections. It's that this petition doesn't present an actual case or controversy to SCOTUS or any other federal court, so no federal court currently has the power to make order any relief at all.

[ 13. December 2016, 17:46: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
I should modify what I said above—some press releases did indeed say that the court order overturned the will of voters expressed in the election. Perhaps I should say that outside of statements such as those press releases, I haven't heard anyone describe it as throwing out the results of the election.

Apologies.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Oh I see, a sexually assaulting incompetent multi-times business cheat vulture capitalist is the best of the lot. I'm dreaming of a White Christmas for the banana republic. [Ultra confused] Ctl-alt-delete to that sort of alt-right thinking.

It might be rather worse than that.

Key quote from the end of the article
quote:
When Il Duce claimed that he would further “clarify” matters, his audience understood that “clarification” was a synonym for violence. Ben-Ghiat has been thinking about these words as Election Day nears. On the stump, Trump keeps saying that order will be restored on January 20th, as soon as he takes office. “He means everything he says,” Ben-Ghiat said. “Authoritarians never pivot.”

 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Oh I see, a sexually assaulting incompetent multi-times business cheat vulture capitalist is the best of the lot. I'm dreaming of a White Christmas for the banana republic. [Ultra confused] Ctl-alt-delete to that sort of alt-right thinking.

It might be rather worse than that.

Key quote from the end of the article
quote:
When Il Duce claimed that he would further “clarify” matters, his audience understood that “clarification” was a synonym for violence. Ben-Ghiat has been thinking about these words as Election Day nears. On the stump, Trump keeps saying that order will be restored on January 20th, as soon as he takes office. “He means everything he says,” Ben-Ghiat said. “Authoritarians never pivot.”

 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
But he did pivot. He was pro-choice, then pro-life. He was for the war on Iraq, then against it. He thought climate change was a hoax, then he never said that, now it looks like it might be again. He was going to "lock her up", then it wasn't worth the trouble. It'll be a real struggle to mean everything he said.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
But he did pivot. He was pro-choice, then pro-life. He was for the war on Iraq, then against it. He thought climate change was a hoax, then he never said that, now it looks like it might be again. He was going to "lock her up", then it wasn't worth the trouble. It'll be a real struggle to mean everything he said.

Games played to get into power. The key issue is what does the authoritarian do when in power?

We may not know the full extent of his real agenda. Based on appointments so far, it will be pursued with authoritarian vigour. Pro-business? For sure. Anti-labour. For sure. Anti-immigration? For sure. America first and bugger the treaties? For sure. Muslims? Not sure, but I think some selective treatment is very much on the cards.

I think the administration will be ruthless.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
In other countries, the army takes over. Could you have a revolution? He is reported to have appointed some ex-generals to his cabinet. Riddle me this: how many grnerals does it take to make a junta?

How did Rome go from republic to emporer?

[ 14. December 2016, 12:16: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
But he did pivot. He was pro-choice, then pro-life. He was for the war on Iraq, then against it. He thought climate change was a hoax, then he never said that, now it looks like it might be again. He was going to "lock her up", then it wasn't worth the trouble. It'll be a real struggle to mean everything he said.

He says whatever he thinks the person directly in front of him wants to hear.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
And there we come to the key question. Who is Trump, really? The real man? Is all this flipfloppery (remember when that was a dealbreaker, for John Kerry? Those were the days, my friends!) a facade, a cunning cloak for the power grab? Or is Trump actually a feather, tossed by the winds of Twitter and popularity?

They told us character in a President was important. Talk about pivots, that is clearly no longer important to many voters. But it is -- it is possibly the question upon which all this discussion hinges.

Unfortunately the only way now to learn the answer, is time. Tiny Fingers will either drive the country into a ditch, or not. Barack Obama is, now, clearly proven to be uninterested in taking all the guns/setting up a Muslim Caliphate/imposing martial law, etc. etc. We can clearly see it. All the energy wasted in denouncing him for it, buying ammo to defend oneself, or fanatically cooking up signs that sharia law was coming, are now seen to be beating the air, a total waste of valuable and scarce brain cells.

And so I sincerely hope it will be, four years (please God, may it not be eight) from now. There will be a new thread about the incoming President. And we will agree that all the awful things we were worrying about in December 2016 were phantoms. Please, Jesus, let it be so. (And while you're at it, Lord, would you like to read The Better Angels of Our Nature? Lemme know, I'll lend you my copy.)
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Brenda wrote:

quote:
Unfortunately the only way now to learn the answer, is time. Tiny Fingers will either drive the country into a ditch, or not. Barack Obama is, now, clearly proven to be uninterested in taking all the guns/setting up a Muslim Caliphate/imposing martial law, etc. etc. We can clearly see it. All the energy wasted in denouncing him for it, buying ammo to defend oneself, or fanatically cooking up signs that sharia law was coming, are now seen to be beating the air, a total waste of valuable and scarce brain cells.


Actually, I suspect a lot of the people who believed that Barack Obama was a gun-stealing, caliphate-building, Communist terrorist, still believe that, albeit in a compartamentalized sort of a way, ie. it doesn't really impact the way they live their everyday lives.

And the thing is, it's easy to continue believing those things about Obama, because THEY WERE NEVER BASED ON LOGIC OR EVIDENCE TO BEGIN WITH.

So that's a little bit different than the people who believe unflattering allegations about Trump, because for the most part those allegations ARE based on things that he really has said and done. It's not just that some internet cranks are making up stuff about him being Putin's Man In Washington, for example. He really DID go on TV and invite the Russians to hack Hillary Clinton's e-mail account.

That said, I agree that Trump likely won't have sold the USA to Russia, interned all Muslims in concentration camps, or launched televised grope-a-thons from the White House lawn, by the end of his period in office, no matter how long it lasts. My point is just that, unlike the allegations directed against Obama, the stuff said about Trump does have some actual basis in his own words and actions.

[ 14. December 2016, 14:39: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
That's the point. The Mango Molester has said a very great many things indeed, most of it totally incompatible with itself and much of it in denial of physical possibility. (Wall, for example.) The only proof now is action.

We should of course keep on throwing his vile words back into his teeth. Do words have meaning, or not? (It could be argued that if they don't, this is the Sin against the Holy Spirit that Jesus was talking about. You can't have discourse if the words are debased.) I am attending the March on Washington in January, and am mulling over signs. I am thinking "The Future Is Nasty", and also "This Pussy Bites," if only I can find one of my daughter's beany baby cats.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And there we come to the key question. Who is Trump, really? The real man? Is all this flipfloppery (remember when that was a dealbreaker, for John Kerry? Those were the days, my friends!) a facade, a cunning cloak for the power grab? Or is Trump actually a feather, tossed by the winds of Twitter and popularity?

Hillary Clinton couldn't throw stones at anybody for flip flopping. Keep in mind she did her flip flopping while in office.

quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
They told us character in a President was important. Talk about pivots, that is clearly no longer important to many voters. But it is -- it is possibly the question upon which all this discussion hinges.

And everybody told them it wasn't. Bush 41 has character. Bob Dole has character. Didn't matter. We are all hypocrites now. Can't put the genie back in the bottle.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Hillary Clinton couldn't throw stones at anybody for flip flopping. Keep in mind she did her flip flopping while in office.

The Clinton tu quoque has to be the most tired defence imaginable for Trump. It needs to be retired, given a rest home to end all rest homes with "do not resuscitate" emblazoned on its file so it can end its days in peace.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
I'm sorry but if you wanted to throw stones at Donald Trump for lack of character and flip flopping you should have nominated somebody other than Hillary Clinton.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
Yeah, it's hard to see where Clinton is on choice, climate change or independence of the judiciary. She got War in Iraq wrong by most estimations, but doesn't try to deny it.

By the way out of interest can you think of a single valid criticism of Trump where you wouldn't say Clinton did something that was morally equivalent and worse?
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
Between Bill and Hillary Clinton?

Not really

Trump takes it to the extreme. However, that was bound to happen. Like I said, the genie was let out of the bottle. All the countries in Europe were laughing at us because we cared about the private life of Bill Clinton. Some saw it as progress that a man with the morals of the French political class could get elected and survive impeachment. Guess what? Now, we have our own Jean-Marie Le Pen too. Only ours won.

4 more years of Bush 41 doesn't seem near as bad as it did in 1992, does it?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I'm sorry but if you wanted to throw stones at Donald Trump for lack of character and flip flopping you should have nominated somebody other than Hillary Clinton.

IT isn't actually the same thing, though. Clinton's shifting is based on a variety of things, expediency being the most damning. But she operates on the same principles as do most politicians.
Trump's switching seems to have little rational or though out pattern. He shifts within the same speech/conversation.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Between Bill and Hillary Clinton?

Not really

Trump takes it to the extreme. However, that was bound to happen. Like I said, the genie was let out of the bottle. All the countries in Europe were laughing at us because we cared about the private life of Bill Clinton.

Pseudo-morality and fear, the Republican secret sauce. Now they have to pretend to like the flavour.
quote:

4 more years of Bush 41 doesn't seem near as bad as it did in 1992, does it?

Hell of a low standard.

ETA:Pseudo-morality and fear is the secret sauce of the political right, the Americans do not hold the patent unfortunately.

[ 14. December 2016, 18:11: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
What about this?

Energy department issue
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
And there's interesting info in the comments. The saving of data out of his reach, for instance.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Trump walks into the dressing rooms of teenaged girls. He grabs pussy, and boasts of it. This is unforgivable in my book. I will call him on it to my dying day. (Another protest sign idea:

this happens to be an Xmas ornament, but it would transfer well to a large placard.

Bill Clinton (who was not running this cycle, recall) at least dealt with consensual partners, and had the decency or hypocrisy to not brag aloud on camera of his prowess. Tiny Fingers is just vulgar, in addition to being an abuser.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Bill Clinton (who was not running this cycle, recall) at least dealt with consensual partners, and had the decency or hypocrisy to not brag aloud on camera of his prowess. Tiny Fingers is just vulgar, in addition to being an abuser.

Consensual in the easy manner in which there's consent between a young woman just out of college and a president of the US.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Bill Clinton (who was not running this cycle, recall) at least dealt with consensual partners, and had the decency or hypocrisy to not brag aloud on camera of his prowess. Tiny Fingers is just vulgar, in addition to being an abuser.

Consensual in the easy manner in which there's consent between a young woman just out of college and a president of the US.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
You are suggesting that groping is equivalent? Or, perhaps, okay, since the perpetrator is a Republican.

I have suggested that all female Cabinet members buy a large leather handbag. Carry it in front at all times.

[ 14. December 2016, 20:15: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
The Scots have a design that's hands free. And they aren't all furry. Or equipped with dangly bits.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
You are suggesting that groping is equivalent? Or, perhaps, okay, since the perpetrator is a Republican.

In the eyes of the law, there are degrees, and groping a stranger is, I suspect, worse than the boss getting a BJ from his intern, who happens to be about his daughter's age.

Still, most of us know that you shouldn't do either of those things, and I think that should be your bottom line. "Well, what Bill Clinton did wasn't nearly as bad as what Donald Trump did" isn't a convincing argument to me. It's just all varying degrees of unacceptable behavior.

People always say that Europe looked at Clinton and wondered what the big deal was. Which makes me wonder, how much of a difference is there between patriarchal prudishness on this side of the pond and patriarchal winking and acceptance on the other?
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
You are suggesting that groping is equivalent? Or, perhaps, okay, since the perpetrator is a Republican.

In the eyes of the law, there are degrees, and groping a stranger is, I suspect, worse than the boss getting a BJ from his intern, who happens to be about his [adult] daughter's age.
In the eyes of the law only one of those is actually a crime. Is that what you mean by "degrees"?
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
Yes. But you still shouldn't do either of those things.

Thanks for adding content to my post when replying, BTW.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Yes. But you still shouldn't do either of those things.

Actually "in the eyes of the law" (your chosen standard of judgment) you only shouldn't do one of those things.

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Thanks for adding content to my post when replying, BTW.

No problem. It's an important distinction "in the eyes of the law".
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Bill Clinton (who was not running this cycle, recall) at least dealt with consensual partners, and had the decency or hypocrisy to not brag aloud on camera of his prowess. Tiny Fingers is just vulgar, in addition to being an abuser.

Consensual in the easy manner in which there's consent between a young woman just out of college and a president of the US.
An adult is an adult, and I think there CAN be consent between a recent college-grad and a POTUS(workplace harassment issues might come into play here, though no more than in any other office).

However...

What Juanita Broadrick alleged was in no way consensual. Now yes, you can certainly get around her claims by saying that she was lying, but that kind of puts liberal Democrats in an awkward position, eg. was Anita Hill lying, too?

And one more "however"...

While Trump himself did appear with Juanita Broadrick to drive that point home, it wasn't the main basis of his defense. Instead, he said that he had been lying when he bragged about groping women. Which is plausible enough, but kind of misses the point: Even simply wanting people to think that you did those sorts of actions is pretty bad, since it suggests an endorsement.

TL/DR: The Democrats were on shaky ground in attacking Trump on the sexual-assault allegations, but not for the main reasons that Trump put forward.

[ 14. December 2016, 21:11: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

What Juanita Broadrick alleged was in no way consensual. Now yes, you can certainly get around her claims by saying that she was lying, but that kind of puts liberal Democrats in an awkward position, eg. was Anita Hill lying, too?

So if any woman, anywhere, has ever lied about sexual assault, that means every woman, everywhere, who ever cries assault must be disbelieved, otherwise we're hypocrites? Really???

I so thought we were past this crap.
[brick wall]

[ 14. December 2016, 21:25: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Yes. But you still shouldn't do either of those things.

Actually "in the eyes of the law" (your chosen standard of judgment) you only shouldn't do one of those things.
I think you missed the leap I made from paragraph one, where I discussed the fact that one act was worse than the other (in fact, one is illegal and one is not), and paragraph two, where I intended to go beyond legal discussion, and suggest that either act is something you shouldn't do. Think of illegal behavior as a special subset of things you shouldn't do. When the intern offers you a BJ, you could, I suppose, ask for an ID, confirm she is over 18, and get on with it and sleep like a baby. In my book, you should also consider how it will affect your family life, the likelihood that the intern will develop feelings for you that you cannot reciprocate, etc, and give a polite "please don't be embarrassed when I say this, and I promise I won't tell anyone about this, but no thanks."
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Consensual in the easy manner in which there's consent between a young woman just out of college and a president of the US.

One wonders just what courses she took at college anyway. Nothing would have stopped her from screaming and running out of the room.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Consensual in the easy manner in which there's consent between a young woman just out of college and a president of the US.

One wonders just what courses she took at college anyway. Nothing would have stopped her from screaming and running out of the room.
I'm going two ways on this one. While I don't remember any detail suggesting that in the instant case she didn't want to be having sexual contact with the President, I don't think that "nothing was stopping you from screaming and running" is a great standard for consent.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
You are suggesting that groping is equivalent? Or, perhaps, okay, since the perpetrator is a Republican.

I have suggested that all female Cabinet members buy a large leather handbag. Carry it in front at all times.

I was making no comment at all on Trump's behaviour, simply on your assertion that Clinton's was consensual. I have very great difficulty in seeing real consent there.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Meanwhile, back in 2016...

"Flynn, Trump’s national security adviser, mishandled classified information, Army records show." (Yahoo)

It was judged by a secret investigation to be accidental. The article also reviews various other problems with Flynn.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

What Juanita Broadrick alleged was in no way consensual. Now yes, you can certainly get around her claims by saying that she was lying, but that kind of puts liberal Democrats in an awkward position, eg. was Anita Hill lying, too?

So if any woman, anywhere, has ever lied about sexual assault, that means every woman, everywhere, who ever cries assault must be disbelieved, otherwise we're hypocrites? Really???

I so thought we were past this crap.
[brick wall]

No, obviously, it's possible to believe that one woman is telling the truth, while another woman is lying. But then, within the context of a political cut-and-thrust, you can damned well expect that the other side is going to ask you to explain, why you think Hill was telling the truth and Broadrick was lying.

Do you think that's a discussion that any of Bill Clinton's feminist defenders wanted to be having on the campaign trail? In terms of realpolitik alone, the optics are not good at all.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
No, it is clear from the old transcripts that Lewinsky invited the contact. That Bill went along was clearly wrong, but he was thinking with the little brain and not the big brain.

Whereas the Mango Mussolini was clearly battening upon girls who did not consent and in whom he was (as their employer) had huge power. And he has neither repented nor apologized. I doubt if taxing him with it will help -- he is sure to tweet in fury. But I am not the only Nasty Woman out there unwilling to give him a pass. This is NSFW (some female nudity)
[URL=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/haunting-photos-feature-trumps-sexist-comments-drawn-on-womens- bodies_us_584ef639e4b0bd9c3dfddf27]but shows you the sort of outrage that women are feeling.[/URL]

[link broken in line with two-click rule]

[ 15. December 2016, 05:00: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Consensual in the easy manner in which there's consent between a young woman just out of college and a president of the US.

One wonders just what courses she took at college anyway. Nothing would have stopped her from screaming and running out of the room.
I'm going two ways on this one. While I don't remember any detail suggesting that in the instant case she didn't want to be having sexual contact with the President, I don't think that "nothing was stopping you from screaming and running" is a great standard for consent.
Well, I took Amanda's "screaming and running" as a synechdoce or a metonym or whatever you'd call it. The basic meaning "There was nothing to stop Lewinsky from refusing Bill Clinton's advances."

Though, as I said earlier, there is still the issue of workplace harassment, if a boss is having sex with his staff.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

What Juanita Broadrick alleged was in no way consensual. Now yes, you can certainly get around her claims by saying that she was lying, but that kind of puts liberal Democrats in an awkward position, eg. was Anita Hill lying, too?

So if any woman, anywhere, has ever lied about sexual assault, that means every woman, everywhere, who ever cries assault must be disbelieved, otherwise we're hypocrites? Really???

I so thought we were past this crap.
[brick wall]

No, obviously, it's possible to believe that one woman is telling the truth, while another woman is lying. But then, within the context of a political cut-and-thrust, you can damned well expect that the other side is going to ask you to explain, why you think Hill was telling the truth and Broadrick was lying.

Do you think that's a discussion that any of Bill Clinton's feminist defenders wanted to be having on the campaign trail? In terms of realpolitik alone, the optics are not good at all.

I am a Bill Clinton feminist defender and I would be happy to examine the evidence against Bill alongside the evidence against Trump. Of course, as noted above, Bill was not running for President.

The argument you're making is the argument we've seen throughout the election-- one that was ultimately quite successful. It's false equivalence. Any accusations made against Trump are met with parallel accusations against Hillary (or some surrogate of hers, even though no surrogates were running for office). These accusations are continually presented as equivalent simply because they are both superficially similar accusations even if the gravity of the two crimes or the evidence to support the accusations are quite dissimilar. No they are both presented by both media and Trump supporters as equivalent in the name of being "fair" or "not hypocritical". No exploration of what evidence lies behind the accusations, simply present the rumor, innuendo, accusation and that is enough. And yes, Comey, we're ALL looking at you.

It's pure BS. Sadly for us as a nation, it proved to be highly effective BS.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is NSFW (some female nudity)
[URL=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/haunting-photos-feature-trumps-sexist-comments-drawn- on-womens-bodies_us_584ef639e4b0bd9c3dfddf27]but shows you the sort of outrage that women are feeling.[/URL]

sigh

See, here is the problem: those images will teach absolutely no one anything. If someone agrees with the message, they do it need to see the images. If they disagree, they will change nothing unless those are their daughters.

[link broken again]

[ 15. December 2016, 05:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Given that Russia is involved in your election, why is Pussy Riot and Femen not part of the deal?

I am still wondering if a revolution is possible.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Cliffdweller, so much more cogent than me!
[Yipee] [Overused]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
hosting/

NSFW warnings are good, but not enough. Our practice is to put any material that might get someone into trouble if it's cached on their drive by virtue of having clicked on a link at least two clicks away from the Ship. That specifically applies to nudity.

Thank you for your cooperation.

/hosting
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, I took Amanda's "screaming and running" as a synechdoce or a metonym or whatever you'd call it. The basic meaning "There was nothing to stop Lewinsky from refusing Bill Clinton's advances."

Though, as I said earlier, there is still the issue of workplace harassment, if a boss is having sex with his staff.

Actually, per reports back in the day, it was the other way around: she purposely sought him out. And her "friend" Linda Tripp egged her on, for political reasons.

Personally, I think ML was acting out, due to a "relationship" with her high school teacher. (Not sure if she was underage, but she was still in school.) He and his wife held a press conference, way back when, wherein he said something like "she's a liar; you can't believe anything she says; why yes, we did have a relationship".

It was a bad thing and shouldn't have happened, IMHO. But it reportedly wasn't a matter of him pressuring her.

I now return to 2016.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Cliffdweller wrote:

quote:
These accusations are continually presented as equivalent simply because they are both superficially similar accusations even if the gravity of the two crimes or the evidence to support the accusations are quite dissimilar.
You don't think that Juanita Broadrick's accusations against Bill Clinton were of at least equal gravity to what Trump claimed to have done? Are you aware of what her accusations were?

I partially take the point about evidence, but remember, my comparison was to Anita Hill(as an example). As far as I can recall, there wasn't much more evidence for her allegations than there was for Broadrick's allegations against Clinton. In both cases, we were being asked to take the word of the accuser at face value.

I have to go to work. I'll continue this later.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
FWIW, I personally think that Anita Hill's allegations were true, because they had an air of plausibility about them, and IIRC no one came forward with any evidence that she was part of some covert plan to frame Clarence Thomas.

However, from what I remember, I don't think the things Thomas is alleged to have done(or more accurately, said) at his office were serious enough to keep him off the SCOTUS, though I seem to remember his testimony before the committee being a little shifty.

As for Broadrick, I think it likely that she had some sort of physical encounter with Bill Clinton. Whether or not it was consensual, I have no idea.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But it reportedly wasn't a matter of him pressuring her.

Then **he** should have run screaming from the room.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But it reportedly wasn't a matter of him pressuring her.

Then **he** should have run screaming from the room.
Exactly.

Politico ran a story yesterday purporting to show how Clinton lost Michigan. Union leaders and local organizers are blaming her campaign for sending them to Iowa and ignoring their ground indicators that Michigan was much closer than the five point lead the campaign was sure they had. Apparently when someone called the Brooklyn office on Tuesday afternoon to beg them to organize last-second get out the vote buses, the campaign had already popped the corks on the first celebratory bottles of champagne and was making calls offering folks spots on the transition team.

Sour grapes? 20/20 hindsight? Actual grievances?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
The reason the election turned as it did does not have a single factor answer. No one thing would have changed the results.
And given that many tiny-fingered, orange votes were driven by imaginary concerns, it would be difficult to address all the issues.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by lilBuddha:
IT isn't actually the same thing, though.

Not to Clinton supporters obviously. To everybody else, it is exactly the same thing.

quote:
originally posted by lilBuddha:
But she operates on the same principles as do most politicians.

So does Trump. However, having not spent his entire adult life in politics, he isn't as smooth as the average politician. Trump learned politics by watching politicians on television.

quote:
originally posted by lilBuddha:
Pseudo-morality and fear, the Republican secret sauce. Now they have to pretend to like the flavour.

Pseudo-morality and fear are everybody's secret sauce. At least you don't have to worry about the Koch brother funded Dominionist Tea Party seizing power and turning the nation into an anarcho capitalistic theocracy that is one half Gault's Gulch and one half Atwood's Gilead. Did I fail to include any Left wing boogeymen?

quote:
originally posted cliffdweller:
So if any woman, anywhere, has ever lied about sexual assault, that means every woman, everywhere, who ever cries assault must be disbelieved, otherwise we're hypocrites? Really???

He's saying just the opposite, actually. Since "rape culture" and the "epidemic of sexual assault on college campuses" have become issues, feminists have insisted that if a woman says she was raped we should believe her. Juanita Broderick claims Bill Clinton raped her. Therefore, she should be believed. Calling her a liar is raping her all over again. Clinton was not acquitted. The charge has not been conclusively proven to be false. Thus, Clinton got away with rape. Just applying the same rules to Bill Clinton that feminists want to apply to a boys in college. I challenge you to look at Juanita Brodderick's claims. Tell me why you believe her claims are false. Then, we can apply that same standard of proof to every single woman who claims to be raped. Fair enough?

Hillary Clinton enabled Bill Clinton's abuse of women for decades. She slut shamed all of his accusers. The whole lot of them were bimbos. What did that make Bill? A feminist icon like Hillary Clinton giving credence to the misogynistic double standard to advance her own political ambition.

quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Whereas the Mango Mussolini was clearly battening upon girls who did not consent

Clearly battering upon girls who did not consent? Did you actually listen or read the transcript of what he actually said? I ask because I find it hard to believe you would say clearly from what he actually said. For instance, Trump said he hit on a married woman and she rejected him. Then, he backed off. He then said women would let him get away with touching them because he was famous. In other words, they CONSENTED because he was famous. The whole grab them by the pussy comment was no more a confession to sexual assault than his shoot somebody on 5th Avenue claim was evidence he planned to commit murder.

quote:
originally posted by cliffdweller:
It's false equivalence.

Bill Clinton was accused of the exact same thing. Feminists stood by their man. One said all women should put on their knee pads and do for Bill Clinton what Monica Lewinsky did. Sorry, if you supported Bill Clinton, you don't get to criticize Trump and expect to be taken seriously. That goes double if you enabled him the way Hillary Clinton did. Should have nominated somebody with more credibility on the issue.

quote:
originally posted by lilBuddha:
See, here is the problem: those images will teach absolutely no one anything. If someone agrees with the message, they do it need to see the images. If they disagree, they will change nothing unless those are their daughters.

Nudity bates the clicks. No telling how much money web sites have made showing scantily clad pictures of Ariel Winter under the pretense of defending her from body shamers. Got to admire Ariel Winter for keeping herself in the spotlight. Sophia Vegara taught her well.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And given that many tiny-fingered, orange votes were driven by imaginary concerns, it would be difficult to address all the issues.

How about this point from the Politico article.

There were fewer tiny-fingered, orange votes cast in Michigan than there were W votes cast in the same state in 2004. W lost, Trump won. Clinton didn't need Obama turnout, she could have won with Kerry turn out.

True, there were a lot of factors at play. But I really hope that we don't look back at this and discover that one factor was the Clinton campaign doing a c-student job of organization.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Beeswax wrote:

quote:
He's saying just the opposite, actually. Since "rape culture" and the "epidemic of sexual assault on college campuses" have become issues, feminists have insisted that if a woman says she was raped we should believe her. Juanita Broderick claims Bill Clinton raped her. Therefore, she should be believed. Calling her a liar is raping her all over again. Clinton was not acquitted. The charge has not been conclusively proven to be false. Thus, Clinton got away with rape. Just applying the same rules to Bill Clinton that feminists want to apply to a boys in college. I challenge you to look at Juanita Brodderick's claims. Tell me why you believe her claims are false. Then, we can apply that same standard of proof to every single woman who claims to be raped. Fair enough?

For the record, I don't know if Hillary Clinton herself subscribes to the blanket notion that all rape complainants have to be believed. I'm pretty sure, though, that among the Democratic voting bloc(a bloc which would include me, were I an American) there are a significant number of people who believe that, or come pretty close in any case.

In Canada, after Jian Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, numerous activists, including several high-profile politicians, began sporting buttons that read I Believe Victims", which, given the facts of the case they were responding to, would seem to indicate that they didn't think court verdicts in favour of the accused need to be taken into account.

That's a Canadian example, but I'm sure the political culture is not that different south of the border. Assuming such views find any significant degree of support among Democrats, it would make it somewhat awkward for the Clinton campaign to go after Juanita Broadrick.

[ 15. December 2016, 16:51: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
It's the implied belief of the Obama Administration given how they interpret Title IX.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

True, there were a lot of factors at play. But I really hope that we don't look back at this and discover that one factor was the Clinton campaign doing a c-student job of organization.

I think it is undeniable this is the case.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:


quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Whereas the Mango Mussolini was clearly battening upon girls who did not consent

Clearly battering upon girls who did not consent? Did you actually listen or read the transcript of what he actually said? I ask because I find it hard to believe you would say clearly from what he actually said. For instance, Trump said he hit on a married woman and she rejected him. Then, he backed off. He then said women would let him get away with touching them because he was famous. In other words, they CONSENTED because he was famous. The whole grab them by the pussy comment was no more a confession to sexual assault than his shoot somebody on 5th Avenue claim was evidence he planned to commit murder.
[/QB]

I was thinking specifically of his boast that he could go into the dressing rooms of the Miss Teen America contestants and ogle them while they were naked. These were under-aged girls. They were beauty contestants, but had certainly not consented to let a 60-year-old man barge in on them dressing.
I don't have to infer or imply. Tiny Fingers bragged of this himself, in his own words, and was proud of it. Every parent would agree: this is egregious. What if it were your daughter in that dressing room, clutching her underwear? My daughter is no longer a teen (oh, would that I could introduce her to the Mango Mussolini! She is a US Army major, an Afghan war vet, and could snap him in half). But I am still her mother, and on behalf of all mothers everywhere, I am coldly furious.
I think my sign in January should say, "NASTY and PROUD of it."
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Originally posted by BA:
quote:
feminists have insisted that if a woman says she was raped we should believe her.
In the past, and still in loads of ways, the tendency was to consider the charge with suspicion first and reluctantly admit the possibility when evidence allowed no other rational conclusion.
What feminism* wants is for women's voices to be heard and not automatically dismissed. This is not a wish to eliminate due process or ignore the possibility of false testimony, but a desire to be treated equally.


*In general. There are a variety of opinions, of course.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by Brendan Clough:
I was thinking specifically of his boast that he could go into the dressing rooms of the Miss Teen America contestants and ogle them while they were naked.

Trump never mentioned the Miss Teen USA pageant. Some past Miss Teen USA contestants have said he walked into the dressing room. Other said he did not. Those who said he did not gave two reasons to support their claim. One, the dressing room was secure with numerous adult chaperones. Two, if anything inappropriate involving teenage girls would have happened, there would have been gossip. So, Donald Trump repeatedly walked in on naked underage girls and we didn't hear about it until the October before an election?

quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What if it were your daughter in that dressing room, clutching her underwear?

Like most parents, I'd say something probably to the press. See above.

quote:
originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is not a wish to eliminate due process or ignore the possibility of false testimony

Yes, they do favor a Kafkaesque version of due process for college boys accused of sexual assault.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What if it were your daughter in that dressing room, clutching her underwear?

Like most parents, I'd say something probably to the press. See above.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

You wouldn't ask your daughter first what she wanted. And you would go to the press? Really? So now your daughter can be confronted by everyone who wants, and is doubly upset, including now at you. Ridiculous. [Paranoid] Supportive parents take the lead of their child and support them.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
Because journalists never print stories based on sources that wish to remain anonymous?
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
And your priority would be the journalists of course. [Confused]
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sorry, if you supported Bill Clinton, you don't get to criticize Trump and expect to be taken seriously.

Bill Clinton ran in 1992 and 1996. He was impeached and acquitted in 1999. Juanita Broaddrick made her public claim in an interview with NBC after the impeachment, and NBC didn't air it until after the acquittal. When she was subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case, she went on legal record in early 1998 denying that she had been raped:
quote:
During the 1992 Presidential campaign there were unfounded rumors and stories circulated that Mr. Clinton had made unwelcome sexual advances toward me in the late seventies. Newspaper and tabloid reporters hounded me and my family, seeking corroboration of these tales. I repeatedly denied the allegations and requested that my family's privacy be respected. These allegations are untrue and I had hoped that they would no longer haunt me, or cause further disruption to my family. (Legal affidavit in Paula Jones case published by the Washington Post in January 1998)
People who voted for Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996 were supposed to believe something Juanita Broaddrick flatly denied until 1999?

She recanted this affidavit when Kenneth Starr gave her immunity for perjuring herself, but Starr decided that the rape she suffered wasn't relevant to his case, since she stood fast in her statements that Clinton had not bribed her to stay quiet.

She had all kinds of good reasons for not wanting to make a public accusation. According to Wikipedia, she told Paula Jones' investigators,
quote:
“[ I]t was just a horrible horrible thing,” ... she “wouldn’t relive it for anything.” ... “[Y]ou can’t get to him, and I’m not going to ruin my good name to do it… there’s just absolutely no way anyone can get to him, he’s just too vicious."
It is precisely because of the kind of thing that Juanita Broaddrick went through that feminists in the intervening years started saying that people should be believed when they claim to have been sexually assaulted. When Clinton raped Broaddrick in 1978, acquaintance rape wasn't an acknowledged occurrence; the phrase hadn't even become current. Had she told more people that Clinton had raped her, had she gone to the police, there was a very good chance that they would have said it was her fault for inviting him into her motel room in the first place. In the 1990s, this was still happening.

You're saying people in the 1990s should have had the ideas and awareness they have today, ideas and awareness that were only developed more recently because of the horrors victims suffered in the wake of being raped.

Yeah, I voted for Bill Clinton in 1992, because I thought his policies seemed slightly more acceptable than George H.W. Bush's. The political judgement I made then, however faulty it may have been, does not automatically invalidate political judgements I make 24 years later.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

So, Donald Trump repeatedly walked in on naked underage girls and we didn't hear about it until the October before an election?

Not going to comment on the allegation itself, but recent events do not make this kind of defence particularly compelling.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
What Ruth said.

What Hillary supporters have and are saying is simply:
1. Rape allegations, no matter against whom, should be heard.
2. Rape allegations, no matter against whom, should be investigated.
3. Hillary Clinton has not been accused of rape.

re: #3: Whether or not Hillary was kind & nice or mean & nasty to her husband's accusers is entirely irrelevant. One can understand how much more complicated relationally the situation is when it is your own spouse than it is in a case where you are a dispassionate observer. I'm quite happy to give her-- or any other innocent spouse in that scenario-- a free pass, just as I give a free pass to parents whose child has just been murdered to cry "execute him!" even if they were passionate anti-death penalty advocates previously. We are human, and our human relationships will get in the way of perspective. That doesn't give Bill a free pass, but it should give her a pass when the only crime she's accused of is being "nasty" to another woman.

re: #2: It seems to me that Bill's past sexual indiscretions, including this one, have been well investigated. Broderick's recanting was a compelling factor in Bill's not being prosecuted in the case. That may or may not be a just outcome-- we'll never know. That happens in rape cases-- sadly, it can often be hard to prove, and people can, as noted, give false testimony/recant for a number of reasons, some valid, some not. But I'm satisfied that it was investigated, and willing to hold the cognitive dissonance of not knowing as a necessary byproduct of the world we live in, and an innocent-until-proven-guilty judicial system.

Similarly, the very serious rape allegations against Trump should be investigated with the same level of very very intense scrutiny Bill was subjected to. And yes, in the "court of public opinion" I am inclined to believe the accusations vs Trump more than those against Bill. That should not surprise anyone. We all tend to believe the people we like more than the people we dislike. Which is why we attempt to have a judicial system that weeds out jurors who have close relationships, positively or negatively, with either the defendant or the victim. So, sure, I have a bias against Trump-- based on a lot of the things he's said. But that's again, why we have a judicial system in place that is supposed to have some checks and balances in place-- although there is good reason to doubt that it's working as well as it ought.

re: #1: Broderick should be heard. She wasn't heard in the past for the reasons Ruth mentioned. She should be heard now. If her accusations cannot be proven one way or the other (as appears to be the case), we cannot expect Bill to be convicted (either legally or in the court of public opinion). But that doesn't mean we can't support her and also give her the benefit of the doubt. Again, it is possible-- necessary in fact-- to carry some level of cognitive dissonance when dealing with these sorts of situations.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And given that many tiny-fingered, orange votes were driven by imaginary concerns, it would be difficult to address all the issues.

How about this point from the Politico article.

There were fewer tiny-fingered, orange votes cast in Michigan than there were W votes cast in the same state in 2004. W lost, Trump won. Clinton didn't need Obama turnout, she could have won with Kerry turn out.

True, there were a lot of factors at play. But I really hope that we don't look back at this and discover that one factor was the Clinton campaign doing a c-student job of organization.

Oh, I think it's clear that was one factor, along with just the general cluelessness/arrogance of our liberal echo-chamber in general. There were many factors-- a real s**t-storm of them, in fact. There's the apparent Russian meddling, there's Comey's probably treasonous meddling, there's the DNC incompetence and corruption re Sanders, there's the GOP incompetence and corruption that led to Trump's getting the nomination... need I go on? Please say no.

I don't know that Clinton's poor campaign organization tops that list. There are others that grate harder for me. But sure, that was a factor.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
This is a non sequitur, given the direction in which the discussion has moved, but this is the most appropriate place for my public self-flagellation.

On a different thread, I wrote that I thought that Trump may well not finish his term, for reasons legal, or personal (boredom or being overwhelmed), and that in that there was some hope. Now that we see the composition of his cabinet, I realise that even if I am correct, it matters not a damn. We're screwed, regardless of who is at the helm. Climate change deniers, evolution deniers, homophobes... it really doesn't matter whether Trump is POTUS or not.

If someone would be so kind as to pass me a scourge.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Now that we see the composition of his cabinet, I realise that even if I am correct, it matters not a damn. We're screwed, regardless of who is at the helm. Climate change deniers, evolution deniers, homophobes... it really doesn't matter whether Trump is POTUS or not.

As I understand it, if Trump resigned and Pence came into power, he could change the cabinet. The real reason the situation is messed up is that Pence and Ryan, the next in line, would not be a good thing either.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I can't imagine the Predator Elect resigning. Would that not make him a Loser, like Nixon? No no, he may well hole up in his penthouse in New York and let others do all the work. But he'd want to be able to show up at White House dinners, shake the hands of celebs, make incoherent speeches -- all the stuff that he would really enjoy.
I would be willing to believe that Ivanka and Pence would keep him from molesting women or starting a nuclear wars, simply because it would be bad for business. But anything else? Yes. Go look at Kansas, to see what devout conservative principles can do for a polity when applied energetically.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As I understand it, if Trump resigned and Pence came into power, he could change the cabinet. The real reason the situation is messed up is that Pence and Ryan, the next in line, would not be a good thing either.

Back around 1973 the same was said about Nixon -- if he's impeached, we're stuck with Agnew. That problem solved itself, and we got rid of both of them.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
This is a non sequitur, given the direction in which the discussion has moved, but this is the most appropriate place for my public self-flagellation.

On a different thread, I wrote that I thought that Trump may well not finish his term, for reasons legal, or personal (boredom or being overwhelmed), and that in that there was some hope. Now that we see the composition of his cabinet, I realise that even if I am correct, it matters not a damn. We're screwed, regardless of who is at the helm. Climate change deniers, evolution deniers, homophobes... it really doesn't matter whether Trump is POTUS or not.

If someone would be so kind as to pass me a scourge.

Sadly, I am inclined to agree. And Pence's policies are every bit as dreadful as Trump's.

The only slight advantage to a Pence administration would be that I think there will be far less chance that Pence would get us into a nuclear war impulsively at 3 am some night over some perceived slight. Doesn't mean that we won't get into a nuclear war-- just that it won't happen impulsively and personal insults won't be as much of a trigger.

That might allow us to sleep thru the night and stop looking up every time we hear a loud noise, But other than that, yeah, I think you're quite right. We're s*****d.

I had the wise foresight to marry a Canadian 20 years ago, so I may have a hide-hole if the wind currents from our nuclear winter prove favorable...
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
Speaking of Nuclear War, how long before the U.S. is at war with some nation? I'm thinking the first month at the rate Trump is going.
 
Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Speaking of Nuclear War, how long before the U.S. is at war with some nation? I'm thinking the first month at the rate Trump is going.

Or even before he takes office...
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Speaking of Nuclear War, how long before the U.S. is at war with some nation? I'm thinking the first month at the rate Trump is going.

Or even before he takes office...
Paywall, Humble Mate. Can't see a thing apart from the headline.

The story is on all news sites though - Chinese nick US underwater drone.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I find myself cross referencing odd news stories nowadays. This one, for example: Human ancestors

It is curious, isn't it, how males always interpret groups with one dominant male and a number of mates as if they would be that lucky individual, whereas they wuld probably be one of the discontented hanging around and perpetually challenging the dominant male to take over?

And boy, does that behaviour seem to resurface in places it really shouldn't.

God, why on earth did you pick that sort of being to become us? And how on earth do we sort it out?
 
Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :
 
It's a mind-blowing article. First, can they really tell the sex of a hominid by its footprints? Stride length, I can believe, and therefore likely range of height. Weight, if the impressions are good enough. I doubt you can sex someone with much confidence from 30m of footprints, especially is they belong to a species we know so little about that our type specimen, Lucy, is described in the article as now apparently an outlier.

But even if they are right about the three females, as you say, why assume it's one male and three mates? Why not two parents and three children? Or five members of a larger group? Or an infant queen, her female bodyguard, two of the royal astrologers, and an amusing uncle visiting from down the Rift Valley.

Last night, QI, the British trick question show, had one about wolves: who leads the wolf pack? Wrong answer: the alpha male. It seems that most wolf packs are family groups, and as far as they have leaders it is the parents. The ethologist who came up with 'alpha male' based it on a study of a captive group, and has spent the rest of his career trying to persuade people he was wrong, but no one listens. The concept of the alpha male is very dear to some; very useful.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
It is curious, isn't it, how males always interpret groups with one dominant male and a number of mates as if they would be that lucky individual, whereas they wuld probably be one of the discontented hanging around and perpetually challenging the dominant male to take over?

{tangent alert}

I saw a TV program about mating season among elk or some related species.

It turns out that while the physical fights for dominance are in progress, the smaller and younger males mate with the females. I assume the fighting males don't realize what's going on.

{/tangent alert}

Moo
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
God knows we have proven, over time, that drawing analogies from other animals to us is not especially helpful. All that stuff about Social Darwinism comes to mind. And that is even assuming that the original observations and theorizing were correct in the first place.

As (hopefully) rational beings with the (optimistically anticipated) ability to reason and (please Lord) alter our behavior, we must hope that the better side of Tiny Fingers' nature will prevail. There is little evidence of that so far, but it's
not for want of exhortation and advice.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Trump says "Let them keep it!" after China agrees to return drone he had previously accused them of stealing.

Umm, good job looking out for America's interests?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Trump says "Let them keep it!" after China agrees to return drone he had previously accused them of stealing.

Umm, good job looking out for America's interests?

Just as he will say "Let them keep it!" when Russia annexes what's left of Ukraine, and maybe Lithuania and Estonia for good measure.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
Baby Fanta really needs a time out.
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
The Electoral College votes were interesting. After all that talk of electors refusing to vote for Trump, he only lost two votes. But Clinton managed to lose four of hers, double the loss; not to mention another three electors who were ruled out of order because they failed to vote for her when bound to do so.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
The Electoral College votes were interesting. After all that talk of electors refusing to vote for Trump, he only lost two votes. But Clinton managed to lose four of hers, double the loss; not to mention another three electors who were ruled out of order because they failed to vote for her when bound to do so.

Do we know who they were going to vote for? There were some last-minute hail-Mary plays where Clinton electors would vote for a moderate (or at least sane) Republican in hopes of pulling in at least 37 of the republican trump electors
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Goode:
[qb] Do we know who they were going to vote for? There were some last-minute hail-Mary plays where Clinton electors would vote for a moderate (or at least sane) Republican in hopes of pulling in at least 37 of the republican trump electors

AIUI the four electors who were expected to vote for Hillary voted for other Democrats, such as Sanders. There was also one vote for an Indian chief.

Moo
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
There was also a Democratic elector in Hawaii who did not vote for Hillary.

There were two Republican electors in Texas who did not vote for Trump.

Moo
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
The Electoral College votes were interesting. After all that talk of electors refusing to vote for Trump, he only lost two votes. But Clinton managed to lose four of hers, double the loss; not to mention another three electors who were ruled out of order because they failed to vote for her when bound to do so.

I didn't look at the results closely (read: at all) but I know one of the electors from the great state of Washington had said before the plebescite that she wasn't going to vote for Hils no matter what the popular vote in the state.
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
The Electoral College votes were interesting. After all that talk of electors refusing to vote for Trump, he only lost two votes. But Clinton managed to lose four of hers, double the loss; not to mention another three electors who were ruled out of order because they failed to vote for her when bound to do so.

I didn't look at the results closely (read: at all) but I know one of the electors from the great state of Washington had said before the plebescite that she wasn't going to vote for Hils no matter what the popular vote in the state.
Ah, yes, American democracy. Con hundreds of millions of ordinary people into imagining that they are voting for the next president when they are in fact only voting for the 538 special people, themselves appointed on slates by the very parties standing in the election, who will choose the president; and then, when any of the special people vote the wrong way, discount that vote and replace the recalcitrant voter with another voter who can be relied upon to vote the "right" way.
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Ah, yes, American democracy. Con hundreds of millions of ordinary people into imagining that they are voting for the next president when they are in fact only voting for the 538 special people, themselves appointed on slates by the very parties standing in the election, who will choose the president; and then, when any of the special people vote the wrong way, discount that vote and replace the recalcitrant voter with another voter who can be relied upon to vote the "right" way.

And remind me again how the British elect their head of state?
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Goldfish Stew:
quote:
And remind me again how the British elect their head of state?
Hey, *we* got it right in 1688 [Two face] The saving in election costs alone...

BTW, if you're in Aotearoa she's *your* head of state too.
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
And remind me again how the British elect their head of state?

Not a meaningful comparison.

Having said that, I'd do away with the monarchy today if it was up to me.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
David Goode:
quote:
I'd do away with the monarchy today if it was up to me.
You *want* a circus like the American Presidential election every umpty years over here?

Also... the Royal Family are not perfect (far from it), but are you willing to take the risk of ending up with Nigel Farrago (or someone even worse, if such a thing be possible) instead? Because I'm not, which is why I am (reluctantly) not a republican.

(with apologies to US shipmates for the tangent)

[ 21. December 2016, 10:47: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
It doesn't have to be an American style circus. Plenty of other republics manage to do presidential elections without descending to that.

And, yes, it's a risk worth taking, I think.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
David--

quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
And remind me again how the British elect their head of state?

Not a meaningful comparison.

Having said that, I'd do away with the monarchy today if it was up to me.

All right. Go ahead and fix your gov't. Then report back to us American Shipmates, and we'll take your ideas under advisement.
[Biased]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Vomit warning

I watched a little bit of Bill O'Reilly last night and there was a discussion about Electoral College Reform. The argument was interesting. If the EC was replaced by a simple popular vote majority, this would disenfranchise the white majority. It would also mean that candidates would concentrate on the large urban centres where most of the votes are and ignore the rural areas which have solid white majorities. The discussion also noted that a clear majority of white men have deserted the GOP. It characterised the 'liberal press campaign' for EC reform as essentially racist, based on the argument that the white majority could not be trusted to do the right thing.

I could hardly believe my ears. The EC was defended on racist and sexist grounds on the basis that the campaign for reform was itself racist. And Hillary Clinton's popular vote majority was 'blamed' on California!

All done with a straight face.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Here is a map showing which states were won by Hillary and which by Trump.

From what I have read, voters were much more influenced by economic issues than race. Economic issues affect people's everyday lives, while race is usually secondary.

The economy is in bad shape, and Washington doesn't realize it. They point to a low unemployment rate while ignoring the fact that there is a lower percentage of people with jobs now than there has been for more than thirty years. Many people have given up trying to find jobs. The economy is growing at a rate of about one percent a year, and the population is increasing at a higher rate.

I just read in our local newspaper that the Volvo truck factory, which is located about twenty miles from me, is laying off its second shift workers. A while back they laid off the third shift. Aside from the local hardship this will cause (especially in an area which is not prosperous at the best of times), it is an indicator of the state of the national economy. The layoffs have come because of a reduced demand for trucks. Since trucks are used to transport goods, the reduced demand means that fewer goods are being transported. Presumably the people who used to produce these goods are now unemployed or underemployed.

If the Democrats had kept their eyes open to the real economic situation, they might have won the election.

Moo
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
And remind me again how the British elect their head of state?

Not a meaningful comparison.

Having said that, I'd do away with the monarchy today if it was up to me.

The "Head Of State" issue is a red-herring, because the Queen doesn't actually have any real power to enact policy.

Suffice to note that, under the Westminister system, a party CAN actually win a majority government without even winning a plurality of the votes, ie. they can get the majority of available seats in the Commons, even thougn some other party beat them in the popular vote. This has happened numerous times that I can think of in provincial elections, including at least one time when it benefitted the party I support.

So, no, not much better than the Electoral College system, in terms of accurately representing the will of the majority.

[ 21. December 2016, 13:22: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
And how many people voted for Theresa May?
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
And how many people voted for Theresa May?

Another meaningless comparison. In this country we vote for a local member of parliament (MP), in geographic constituencies with more or less equal numbers of voters. The party with the most MPs elected wins, and forms the government, either on its own, or in coalition with other parties if it doesn't have an overall majority of MPs, and then chooses its prime minister. By convention, that's the person who also happens to be the party's elected leader, though it needn't be.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
How is it meaningless? The United States chooses it's president the way it chooses it's president which is the way it's chosen it's president for over 200 years and that has NEVER been by overall popular vote. Saying that all other democracies choose their governments based on popular vote alone is pure and utter nonsense. You can't live in the UK complain about Trump not winning the popular vote and be OK with the SNP having more members of parliament than the UKIP or Lib-Dems. Don't give me that crap about Scotland being its own separate kingdom either. Scotland and England have far more similarities than New York and Nebraska.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
How is it meaningless? The United States chooses it's president the way it chooses it's president which is the way it's chosen it's president for over 200 years and that has NEVER been by overall popular vote.

No. The electoral delegates used to be chosen by the state governments. You are wrong. This is NOT the way we have chosen our delegates for over 200 years.
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Saying that all other democracies choose their governments based on popular vote alone is pure and utter nonsense. You can't live in the UK complain about Trump not winning the popular vote and be OK with the SNP having more members of parliament than the UKIP or Lib-Dems. Don't give me that crap about Scotland being its own separate kingdom either.

Hold tight. I never said a single one of those things.
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
How is it meaningless? The United States chooses it's president the way it chooses it's president which is the way it's chosen it's president for over 200 years and that has NEVER been by overall popular vote.

No. The electoral delegates used to be chosen by the state governments. You are wrong. This is NOT the way we have chosen our delegates for over 200 years.
Interesting. Do you know roughly when that change happened, and how it came about?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
How is it meaningless? The United States chooses it's president the way it chooses it's president which is the way it's chosen it's president for over 200 years and that has NEVER been by overall popular vote.

No. The electoral delegates used to be chosen by the state governments. You are wrong. This is NOT the way we have chosen our delegates for over 200 years.
Interesting. Do you know roughly when that change happened, and how it came about?
I'm having a hard time researching this. The sites are rather good on the niceties of the legal details, but schtum on the actuality on the ground. Frustrating.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Ah, yes, American democracy. Con hundreds of millions of ordinary people into imagining that they are voting for the next president when they are in fact only voting for the 538 special people, themselves appointed on slates by the very parties standing in the election, who will choose the president; and then, when any of the special people vote the wrong way, discount that vote and replace the recalcitrant voter with another voter who can be relied upon to vote the "right" way.

And remind me again how the British elect their head of state?
We let God* handle it as he happens to have better taste than the American Demos. Unless someone wants to argue that Donald Trump is classier than Brenda.

*Actually, we did have to give God a teensy bit of a helping hand with the Protestant Succession thing and putting the skids under Edward VIII when he turned out to be a bit fash. But, by and large, He's done a pretty good job since 1688.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
We let God handle it. . . . By and large, He's done a pretty good job since 1688.

He certainly hit the jackpot with George III so far as we Americans are concerned.
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
BTW, if you're in Aotearoa she's *your* head of state too.

Don't remind me
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:

*Actually, we did have to give God a teensy bit of a helping hand with the Protestant Succession thing and putting the skids under Edward VIII when he turned out to be a bit fash. But, by and large, He's done a pretty good job since 1688.

Sure made a mess of things before that, though. Wonder what took him so long to focus?

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
We let God handle it. . . . By and large, He's done a pretty good job since 1688.

He certainly hit the jackpot with George III so far as we Americans are concerned.
George III was not so bad. Neither was the treatment of the colonies. And the revolution was not a populist movement, etc.
Understanding history is bad enough without nationalist propaganda.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
How is it meaningless? The United States chooses it's president the way it chooses it's president which is the way it's chosen it's president for over 200 years and that has NEVER been by overall popular vote.

No. The electoral delegates used to be chosen by the state governments. You are wrong. This is NOT the way we have chosen our delegates for over 200 years.
Since 1804, the electoral college functions the same way it functions now. President and vice president were never chosen by popular vote. For the record, with a few exceptions, states have chosen electors by either winner take all or divided their electors by house district for over two hundred years.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Ah, yes, American democracy. Con hundreds of millions of ordinary people into imagining that they are voting for the next president when they are in fact only voting for the 538 special people, themselves appointed on slates by the very parties standing in the election, who will choose the president; and then, when any of the special people vote the wrong way, discount that vote and replace the recalcitrant voter with another voter who can be relied upon to vote the "right" way.

And remind me again how the British elect their head of state?
IIRC, those standing as electors from some states are required to say for whom they will vote if successful and may not change unless that person is no longer a candidate.

Don't forget the manner in which the upper house of the British parliament is constituted - some elected by a very small constituency (most hereditary peers), some by long service in their jobs ( the bishops) and others appointed by various governments over the years (all the life peers ). Then there are still 2 who make their way by pure hereditary right. Don't start me on the democratic manner in which the Canadian Senate is constituted - it makes the Senates here and the US look like models of popular election.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:

*Actually, we did have to give God a teensy bit of a helping hand with the Protestant Succession thing and putting the skids under Edward VIII when he turned out to be a bit fash. But, by and large, He's done a pretty good job since 1688.

Sure made a mess of things before that, though. Wonder what took him so long to focus?

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
We let God handle it. . . . By and large, He's done a pretty good job since 1688.

He certainly hit the jackpot with George III so far as we Americans are concerned.
George III was not so bad. Neither was the treatment of the colonies. And the revolution was not a populist movement, etc.
Understanding history is bad enough without nationalist propaganda.

Eh, is someone talking smack about His Most Gracious Majesty George III, of late and happy memory?

In my town the very centre is reckoned to be the intersection of George St. and Charlotte St!
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh, George wasn't such a bad guy.John Adams liked him.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Eh, is someone talking smack about His Most Gracious Majesty George III, of late and happy memory?

George III was an usurper. I stand prepared to support Franz of Bavaria should he ever wish to declare himself King of the United States. Support in much the same way Iceland supports NATO military operations. I'll share some Jacobite memes on Facebook or something. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Usurpers don't get invited in by the populace. Constitutional monarchy we have.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Doesn't the USA president function like a limited term constitional monarch? With a consort queen in a first lady. An adopted crown pence. Though if impeached, doesn't get his head chopped off. Perhaps unfortunately.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
This seems to be the place to put this.

Some of you may remember that, a week before the election, a church in Mississippi was burned, with the words "Vote Trump" spray painted on the walls.

They have arrested a suspect. The suspect is a member of the church, and at this time, the police believe that the arson was not politically motivated, although it may have been the intent of the suspect to disguise the fire as a hate crime.

It's hard to say what to think of this. I'm sure there are already folks on the radio saying that this proves that every report of a hate crime for the last few months has been made up. And certainly that is not true.

I think the worst thing we could do with this story is hide it or not report it, in fear that it will take credibility away from our narrative.

Any other thoughts? Mostly, I'm sad for the church, and sad about the kind of trouble the suspect has experienced in life that would have caused him to do this.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
That about covers it. While I agree that we shouldn't hide it, I don't think we need to assume anyone would. At the same time, there really isn't much more to say. Just one of the sad tragic things that happens in life.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, George wasn't such a bad guy. John Adams liked him.

Suffered from porphyria, or some such. Hence, "The Madness Of King George".
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
How is it meaningless? The United States chooses it's president the way it chooses it's president which is the way it's chosen it's president for over 200 years and that has NEVER been by overall popular vote.

No. The electoral delegates used to be chosen by the state governments. You are wrong. This is NOT the way we have chosen our delegates for over 200 years.
Interesting. Do you know roughly when that change happened, and how it came about?
According to the deity wikipedia, in 14 states electors were chosen by the legislature (an interesting description can be found in Gore Vidal's novel Burr) until 1832, and then the only one remaining was South Carolina, which continued until 1860. As the majority of states had moved to a process where voters signalled their choice for a single ticket (or list), those remaining had difficulty justifying the limitation of choosing presidents to members of the legislature.

Two states (Nebraska & Maine) choose electors by congressional district, with a further two going to the candidate supported by a plurality of voters. Other states have done this in the past. As these are state elections, states can set up any arrangement they please, from proportional representation to the toss of a coin.

Keeping track of it makes Scottish peerage law simple by way of comparison.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, George wasn't such a bad guy. John Adams liked him.

Suffered from porphyria, or some such. Hence, "The Madness Of King George".
Yeah, by the time Adams met him, he'd recovered. They apparently hit it off on first meeting, to the point that George told him if he had to cope with the idea of an officially recognized American embassador, he was glad it was Adams*

Which was really a win: win situation for Adams, as his fellow patriots, Ben Franklin in particular, tended to describe him a decent enough guy who was unfortunately the most undiplomatic diplomat they had*

* paraphrased, but not a hell of a lot.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I have always wondered how accurate the character of Adams was in the musical "1776". So vivid that it probably eclipses the real man.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I have always wondered how accurate the character of Adams was in the musical "1776". So vivid that it probably eclipses the real man.

Sooner or later there's always a revisionist historical musical (Strong language may not be suitable for work)
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
[Killing me]

Hamilton was among many of the Founding Fathers who found Adams's general decency to be complicated by his tendency to be an insufferable asshole. For his part, Adams couldn't stand Hamilton.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
--Didn't know George III recovered.

--Thanks for the Adams rap link. Will check it out later.

--Re "1776": I love that film. And yes, Adams was a royal (or rebel? [Biased] ) PITA in it.

Non-Americans wanting to understand the founding of the US could do worse than watch that film musical.

--And, of course, there was the long-running feud between Adams and Jefferson. IIRC, their campaign rhetoric and insults got wayyyy out of control. But they eventually reconciled, and AIUI died on the same day.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
One of the reasons Jefferson and Adams wound up so bitterly estranged is that they loved each other like brothers. The division wasn't just a political spat, it was seen as an unforgivable betrayal by both men.

It's my understanding that Abigail ran interference between the two men in their twilight years, and when reconciled, they went right back to being soul brothers. I guess that's what made Adams one of my heroes. Whatever his diplomatic or political shortcomings, his letters to Jefferson and Abigail demonstrate that he made a point to let his loved ones know they were loved.

Uh, end tangent, I guess.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I think it's rather a good tangent. Makes me wonder if Trump actually 'gets' brotherhood.

What is the point of strengthening the USA nuclear capability? In the aftermath of the election, I'm pretty dismayed by the great majority of Trump's appointments so far, but yesterday's 'policy tweet' was pretty scary.

If your intention is to deter, then the US already has ample nuclear capability. If your intention is to scare the world into believing that a savage madman is about to become POTUS, that's another matter.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What is the point of strengthening the USA nuclear capability?

Small boys like big toys. He wants to look powerful.
 
Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :
 
A Democratic senator from Oregon has commented that Trump has the emotional maturity of a 5-year-old. Various people are responding that this is an insult to 5-year-olds. What I like about it is that Trump is likely to respond with a tantrum, proving the point.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What is the point of strengthening the USA nuclear capability?

Small boys like big toys. He wants to look powerful.
Some people judge a man by the size of his missile.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Probably right, RuthW. Strange to think the fate of the world is going to be in the hands of such a small boy.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
..along with his little chum, Pootin...

[Ultra confused]

IJ
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Good News/Bad news scenario: The good news is that there actually is somebody that Trump will listen to. The bad news is that it's Putin.
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Some people judge a man by the size of his missile.

Trump believes he has the advantage, though, for tiny hands always create the delusion of an unusually large cock.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Some people judge a man by the size of his missile.

Trump believes he has the advantage, though, for tiny hands always create the delusion of an unusually large cock.
On wonders, then, why he needs all these other compensations?
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
Maybe he can't get it up and nukes are his viagra.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
In an op-ed piece in today's POST I read that the Mango Mussolini won 81% of white Christian evangelical votes. Well, I guess that clarifies it for me. I am not white, and an clearly no longer evangelical. Christianity is on the bubble.

In an allied report, I drove through VA, NC, and SC this holiday to visit relatives. I saw at least two barn roofs painted with Trump slogans, and any number of yard signs, billboards, etc. Have resolved to not retire to a red state -- I won't be able to afford to, anyway, because they treat the safety net so poorly.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, by the time Adams met him, he'd recovered.

He recovered and then relapsed. This may have happened more than once. He ended up insane.

Moo
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Genuinely sad to hear that. He seemed like a tortured soul.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In an op-ed piece in today's POST I read that the Mango Mussolini won 81% of white Christian evangelical votes. Well, I guess that clarifies it for me. I am not white, and an clearly no longer evangelical. Christianity is on the bubble.

That's not Christianity. That's the American Jesus. Happy Birthday Jesus! (scene from Full Metal Jacket)

[ 29. December 2016, 00:12: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In an op-ed piece in today's POST I read that the Mango Mussolini won 81% of white Christian evangelical votes. Well, I guess that clarifies it for me. I am not white, and an clearly no longer evangelical. Christianity is on the bubble.

In an allied report, I drove through VA, NC, and SC this holiday to visit relatives. I saw at least two barn roofs painted with Trump slogans, and any number of yard signs, billboards, etc. Have resolved to not retire to a red state -- I won't be able to afford to, anyway, because they treat the safety net so poorly.

On my annual pilgrimage to Florida to deliver my mother to her favourite golf haunts, I drove through the Shenandoah valley, with several backroad excursions to look at local cider-houses and vineyards (I note that I also pick up some very good local honey along the way) and can confirm Brenda Clough's observations. For amusement, one day in North Carolina, we counted the Hillary signs (3) against the Trump signs (182) in rural areas. The balance was about 50/50 in Asheville with a vote of 54% for Clinton and 40% for Trump.

My Asheville contact suggested that Clinton supporters in rural areas would be inclined to lay low when opinions were high, avoiding hard feelings with neighbours. Wilkes County (71% Trump and 21% Clinton), Caldwell County (74% Trump and 24% Clinton), and Henderson County (62% Trump and 35% Clinton) where we saw no Clinton signs at all might bear this out. In South Carolina, in Spartanburg and Laurens counties (both 63% Trump and 33% Clinton), we saw a single Clinton sign in each county.

Looking for the figures by county-- this site provides the idle with many hours of innocent diversion-- there seems to be a very strong urban/rural divide on this. Even in poorer white-working-class urban areas, there is a leaning toward Clinton over Trump. Doubtless someone will soon do a thesis on this.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
People keep trying to compare Trump to Reagan.

Reagan knew he wasn't the smartest man in the room. And he also had actually talked with people who wen to war and knew it wasn't pretty.

Trump thinks he is smarter then everybody and has no clue about war's costs.


Trump is Trump and trying to equate him to anybody from the Republican past doesn't work.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
It will be interesting to see how Trump handles Iran, as in one sense, Iran has been empowered in recent years, both by US action (invasion of Iraq, which knocked out one of Iran's rival powers), and of course, by Russian action in Syria, where Iran is a key player, along with its off-shoots, such as Hezbollah.

At the same time, Trump sounds displeased with the nuclear deal, and threatened to cancel it, I think.

I suppose one solution is to ignore the whole thing, probably not very practical.

John Harris has an article in the Guardian today, arguing that politics is becoming too complex to grasp. The Middle East is a prime example.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
A pity, then, that the only items Trump seems able and willing to grasp are female genitalia.

IJ
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
People keep trying to compare Trump to Reagan.
<snip>
Trump is Trump and trying to equate him to anybody from the Republican past doesn't work.

This is correct, and the crux of the matter is knowing just how much power is going to come to rest in the hands of this individual.
It seems pretty clear he's going to face China down on trade.
If he starts willy waving at putin then there is a possibility the whole effin' place could go up. But even that is nothing new.

As for the Mid East it is difficult to see how trump could make any greater mess of that than his predecessors already have.
Hey Ho...Happy New Year.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
'My name is Trumpymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

(With sincere apologies to the shade of Mr. Shelley)

IJ
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Then you perceive the body of our kingdom
How foul it is; what rank diseases grow
And with what danger, near the heart of it.

But what good medicine?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I find myself rereading Yeats' THE SECOND COMING sadly. (My Ipad doesn't allow me to copy and paste links, alas, but any search will kick it up -- it's a short poem.)
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
People keep trying to compare Trump to Reagan.
<snip>
Trump is Trump and trying to equate him to anybody from the Republican past doesn't work.

This is correct, and the crux of the matter is knowing just how much power is going to come to rest in the hands of this individual.
It seems pretty clear he's going to face China down on trade.
...

He won't and likely can't win that battle in reality but I suspect he will say he did something while actually doing very little. This fig leaf lying about actualities is what he seems to do. It might keep him in power for 8 years but as many have noted, his posturing is unlikely to do anything for the millions of Americans displaced by the economic changes of the last 30 years.

The question then becomes does who follows Trump pivot away from the current parties towards an even more totalitarian approach.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
(My Ipad doesn't allow me to copy and paste links, alas ..)

Tangent/

Actually it does but it's a bit of a pain. You hold down your finger on the touch screen at the beginning of the link you wish to copy and paste and a copy choice appears. Then after selecting that copy you go to where you want to paste and hold down your finger on the touch screen, obtaining the paste option.

/ End Tangent

[ 31. December 2016, 07:37: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
(My Ipad doesn't allow me to copy and paste links, alas ..)

Tangent/

Actually it does but it's a bit of a pain. You hold down your finger on the touch screen at the beginning of the link you wish to copy and paste and a copy choice appears. Then after selecting that copy you go to where you want to paste and hold down your finger on the touch screen, obtaining the paste option.

/ End Tangent

In fact, press and hold anywhere in the link, not only at the beginning.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Here is a link to Yeats' poem 'The Second Coming':

http://www.potw.org/archive/potw351.html

Quite frightening, IMHO.

IJ
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Fucking Hell
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
The BBC is reporting that Trump opposes this, and has openly criticised those who voted for it.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
From David Goode's link: "I want to make clear that this House will hold its members to the highest ethical standards and the Office will continue to operate independently to provide public accountability to Congress," [Paul Ryan] said.

"The foxes guarding the henhouse will hold each other to the highest ethical standards." Why should anybody expect they would do that? We've seen how well that works for police departments without external oversight.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
Dare we hope that Paul Ryan's got religion at last? He bears watching.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Recall that Congress votes itself its own salary, pension, benefits and vacation schedule. Possibly you imagine these are wildly generous; this just shows you have a small imagination, because they are somewhat beyond that. They have also taken care to exempt themselves from labor and discrimination laws. They have no shame but it's nothing new.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
The BBC is reporting that Trump opposes this, and has openly criticised those who voted for it.

If you read what Trump tweeted on the matter, he opposes the House doing this now. He doesn't seem to oppose it in principle.

quote:
With all that Congress has to work on, do they really have to make the weakening of the Independent Ethics Watchdog, as unfair as it
quote:
........may be, their number one act and priority. Focus on tax reform, healthcare and so many other things of far greater importance! #DTS
In other words Trump objects to the timing, not the act itself.

[ 03. January 2017, 17:33: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Recall that Congress votes itself its own salary, pension, benefits and vacation schedule.

Technically speaking, under the terms of the Twenty-Seventh Amendment Congress can only vote for the salary of the next Congress, not "itself". Of course since most of Congress is going to be staying on more than two years (especially the two-thirds of the Senate who sit out every electoral cycle) this is a very narrow distinction.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Congress has now pulled back on this. That's not to say that there are members who don't want independent scrutiny, but I don't think they want to get into an adversarial position with Trump right off the bat.


House Republicans back off gutting ethics watchdog after backlash from Trump

Not sure if there is a paywall. So here is a quote:

quote:
In a complete reversal, the House GOP moved to withdraw proposed changes they approved the day before to official rules that would rein in the Office of Congressional Ethics (OCE). Instead, the House will study changes to the office with an August deadline.

The about-face came hours after Trump took to Twitter to slam House Republicans for voting behind closed doors Monday night in favor of immediately weakening the independent ethics office. The vote defied House GOP leaders and complicated Trump’s “drain the swamp” campaign mantra.

sabine
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
A dangerous nitwit who governs by tweet?
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A dangerous nitwit who governs by tweet?

We are going to have to get used to it. [Disappointed]

sabine
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Frankly, that's his attraction for me. He's a RINO (Republican in Name Only): the party elites hate him, he doesn't get along with the GOP's corporate donors, and he has at least as many problems relating to his own party as he does with the Democrats.


Persuant to Trump Vs. The GOP...

GOP drops weakening of ethics office after Trump tweet

Of course, Trump didn't come right out and say that he supports the ethics office, in fact he implies that he doesn't, but used the excuse of there being other issues to tackle. But if he was big supporter of gutting the office, he likely wouldn't have been that worried about priorities.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Apparently, Elizabeth Warren had something to say, as well

sabine
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Oh, cross-posted with the posters above.

Not sure if I'd call Trump a "dangerous nitwit" on this one, as you can probably guess from my post. I'm not sure what the protocol is for the POTUS disagreeing publically with the Congress. I suspect if it the prez and the congress are from different parties, nobody would see much amiss in it.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Alternet is doing something odd to this computer, so I could only read the headline.

But if I've got the gist of it, the criticism of congress started with Warren, and then Trump jumped on the bandwagon, at which point congress backed off.

This seems to support my overall view of things, ie. contrary to the standard view that Trump is the Antichrist, out of the three branches of legislative government right now, the House, the Senate, and the Administration, it's the latter that might be most amenable to working with the Democrats.

Had it simply been Elizabeth Warren barking away against congress on this issue, they probably wouldn't have much cared what she thought. But things changed once Trump picked up the tune.

Of course, I also wouldn't rule out the gutting the ethics-commitee was just really unpopular with the voters, and that the Republicans knew it.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Oh, cross-posted with the posters above.

Not sure if I'd call Trump a "dangerous nitwit" on this one, as you can probably guess from my post. I'm not sure what the protocol is for the POTUS disagreeing publically with the Congress. I suspect if it the prez and the congress are from different parties, nobody would see much amiss in it.

I suspect that this kind of thing goes on back channel all the time. Trump, by governing via Twitter, has made it more transparent. Of course deal-making by Twitter doesn't seem like a good idea. But this kind of blustery non-threat works a treat.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Mouethief wrote:

quote:
I suspect that this kind of thing goes on back channel all the time. Trump, by governing via Twitter, has made it more transparent. Of course deal-making by Twitter doesn't seem like a good idea. But this kind of blustery non-threat works a treat.


And I'd wager that if it had just been Warren's tweet, minus Trump's me-tooism, that pushed Congress away from the gutting, Democrats would be hailing it as "brilliant politics", "the kind of tough talk we need right now" etc.

I think politics by twitter is probably just gonna be something we have to get used to, with or without Trump. The panicked reaction in some quarters is possibly akin to people in 1933 saying "Are you kidding me?! The president?! On the freaking RADIO?"
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Mouethief wrote:

quote:
I suspect that this kind of thing goes on back channel all the time. Trump, by governing via Twitter, has made it more transparent. Of course deal-making by Twitter doesn't seem like a good idea. But this kind of blustery non-threat works a treat.


And I'd wager that if it had just been Warren's tweet, minus Trump's me-tooism, that pushed Congress away from the gutting, Democrats would be hailing it as "brilliant politics", "the kind of tough talk we need right now" etc.

I think politics by twitter is probably just gonna be something we have to get used to, with or without Trump. The panicked reaction in some quarters is possibly akin to people in 1933 saying "Are you kidding me?! The president?! On the freaking RADIO?"

Of course the problem with Trump on Twitter is that he has heretofore primarily used it to be nasty in a churlish and childish manner to people who have criticized him.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Mouethief wrote:

quote:
Of course the problem with Trump on Twitter is that he has heretofore primarily used it to be nasty in a churlish and childish manner to people who have criticized him.

Indeed. Though I wonder, in the absensce of twitter, would he be more restrained? I suspect that he'd still find a way to bad-mouth people he doesn't like, though possibly with less frequency.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Salon has a piece up arguing that the media is overplaying Trump's support for the ungutted ethics committe.

Their argument is based mostly on Trump's citing low-priority as his reason for opposing the gutting, rather than defending the committee outright. But I think this fails to take into consideration how politics is done. A president is not likely to come right out and say "You know that thing that my party hates and is desperate to get rid of? Well, I LOVE it!!" Instead, he's gonna make it seem as if he's not backtracking, when in fact he really is.

Not that I think Trump is a big fan of the ethics-committee, in fact, I'm sure he'd happily scrap it if he thought it would serve his interests somehow. My guess is he calculated that doing so was bad politics for the GOP.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Remember we don't know for sure who actually composed and sent that tweet. Maybe Ivanka? At the very least, she seems to be saner than her dad. She's also said to be interested in doing something good--don't remember if it was daycare, or what.

Whoever wrote it basically kicked the can down the road a piece...and it *worked*.

I'm more worried over his tweet about N. Korea. Not sure how recent it is. But a show on my NPR station mentioned today that when the current Dear Leader threatened to use nuclear missiles, Trump tweeted "That won't happen". The program, IIRC, took the view that he was warning N. Korea. I think it might be more of his dismissive smart-mouthing, and it could backfire. Whatever else the Dear Leaders have wanted, they seem to want attention for their country--negative attention, if that's all they can get...
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
This is an incredibly clever move by singer Rebecca.

"Rebecca Ferguson will "graciously accept" her invitation to perform at Donald Trump's inauguration ceremony on one condition - that she is allowed to sing black protest song "Strange Fruit"."

If he agrees his ultra right wing friends will be outraged, if he declines his reasons will be obvious to the world.

Clever!
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Cool re the singer, Boogie. T also plans to have the high-kicking Rockettes dance at the inauguration, but some of them are trying to find a way to not participate.

(Rockettes at the inauguration? Ick. Wrong place, wrong time.)

ETA: I wonder if he's ever actually watched an inauguration?

[ 04. January 2017, 09:30: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
They've performed at earlier inaugurals; the Rockettes are Americana now and not considered showgirls.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
They've performed at earlier inaugurals; the Rockettes are Americana now and not considered showgirls.

"We get a kick out of L'eggs and it shows..."
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The Rockettes are Americana now and not considered showgirls.

Wikipedia calls them "a precision dance company."

The same Wikipedia entry, discussing the Rockettes' upcoming appearance at the Trump inauguration, quotes one Rockette as saying that she "wouldn't feel comfortable standing near a man like that in our costumes."

Actually I might consider paying to see Donald Trump in a Rockette costume.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

Actually I might consider paying to see Donald Trump in a Rockette costume.

I think I'd [Projectile]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The Rockettes are Americana now and not considered showgirls.

Wikipedia calls them "a precision dance company."
.

iow, showgirls.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
They've performed at earlier inaugurals; the Rockettes are Americana now and not considered showgirls.

Hmmm...a quick search indicates they evidently performed for both of Bush-43's inaugurations. Don't think I knew that at the time.

So there's precedent, but I still don't think it's appropriate. FWIW.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
The managers have cleverly positioned the troupe as Americana and not as the 'tits and ass' we usually associate with showgirls. Their show at Rockefeller Center is perennially popular.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The managers have cleverly positioned the troupe as Americana and not as the 'tits and ass' we usually associate with showgirls. Their show at Rockefeller Center is perennially popular.

Well, in fairness, "Americana" and "tits and ass" are not a priori mutually exclusive. The Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, for instance, certainly exemplify both categories.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, in fairness, "Americana" and "tits and ass" are not a priori mutually exclusive. The Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, for instance, certainly exemplify both categories.

I'm surprised Drumpf hasn't recruited them for his show, I mean inauguration.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
quote:
"Rebecca Ferguson will "graciously accept" her invitation to perform at Donald Trump's inauguration ceremony on one condition - that she is allowed to sing black protest song "Strange Fruit"."
In a similar vein, perhaps Weird Al Yankovic could be persuaded to sing "Tacky"?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Meanwhile, from the "Was he legally elected?" files:

"At least 50 Donald Trump electors were illegally seated as Electoral College members: report. More evidence surfaces as calls mount to challenge congressional ratification of Electoral College vote." (Salon)

Evidently, Congress votes *tomorrow* about certifying the vote.

If American citizens want to let their Congress beings know their opinions about the situation, this would be a really good time to do it...

 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
From the article:
quote:
Their research and report grew out of the legal activities surrounding the December 19 Electoral College meeting, where Clayton and others urged Republican electors to reject Trump saying they had a constitutional responsibility to pick a more qualified president.
I am not reassured by the agenda set for this "research".

In back-to-front sort of way, this reminds me of clearly guilty defendants attempting every trick in the book to have the case against them dismissed over a technicality.

The guy won. I think it sucks. But mounting last-minute technical challenges like this is not the way forward.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Eutychus--

--If there really were all those illegal electors (predominately, IIRC, for not living in the area they were representing), then not certifying the election *at this point* is legit.

--Given that Trump is already a disaster for this country, thinks sexual assault that he's committed is ok, and is only likely to get much worse, it's wise to try to stop him by any legitimate means.

--Given the discussion, here and in the wider world, by non-Americans who think that Trump is a grave threat to the entire world, I'm a little surprised that you think this is a bad idea. You're entitled to your opinion. But if we don't do everything we legitimately, legally, non-violently can, are you going to criticize us for Trump's presidency, in the future?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
They've performed at earlier inaugurals; the Rockettes are Americana now and not considered showgirls.

Hmmm...a quick search indicates they evidently performed for both of Bush-43's inaugurations. Don't think I knew that at the time.

So there's precedent, but I still don't think it's appropriate. FWIW.

For this particular presidency, it's hard to think of anything more appropriate, unless it was a coronation of a ginormous wad of cash.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
For this particular presidency, it's hard to think of anything more appropriate.

Oh, I can think of something.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Good Heavens, Miss Amanda! However do you come up with such connections?

How unlike the home life of our own dear Queen.

IJ
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
Miss Amanda reads widely.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Given that Trump is already a disaster for this country, thinks sexual assault that he's committed is ok, and is only likely to get much worse, it's wise to try to stop him by any legitimate means.

On that basis it would be more honest to declare that intention up front rather than try and disguise the effort as a fortuitous piece of research.

The problem with your suggestion that people suddenly start contacting their Congressman now on a technical pretext with the above partisan aim in mind is that it tends to undermine the entire democratic process.

I can't imagine you'd be supporting such a move on the part of the Republicans had Hillary been elected.

If there's something wrong with electoral college members' mandate, the time to sort that out is mid-cycle, not on the eve of an inauguration.

quote:
--Given the discussion, here and in the wider world, by non-Americans who think that Trump is a grave threat to the entire world, I'm a little surprised that you think this is a bad idea.
I would much rather Hillary in the White House than Trump, and I am concerned about the far-reaching damage that Trump could do, as much in terms of the behaviour he is likely to legitimise as in terms of the actions he may implement.

However, I think that henceforth, the focus for serious-minded opponents should be on a critical appraisal of his exercise of his mandate, and proper challenges to anything illegal or unconstitutional, and not on desperately trying to void it before it's started.

quote:
But if we don't do everything we legitimately, legally, non-violently can, are you going to criticize us for Trump's presidency, in the future?
Seeing as how blaming any shipmate for the actions of the country they happen to be a citizen of solely on the grounds of that citizenship is usually treated as a Commandment 1 violation, I doubt it.

If I blame anyone who has not declared a vote for Trump for his actions, feel free to call me to Hell.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Golden Key, I am also concerned about the damage Trump could do. However, the system you have in place for electing your President is functioning as designed; didn't the Founding Fathers set it up that way to make it almost impossible for anyone who wasn't rich, white, male and Protestant to be elected?

Maybe you should be campaigning for the presidential election to be decided by the popular vote alone (which Hillary Clinton won). But unless you want to have another revolution you're stuck with the Mango Mussolini for now.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Jane--

Well, the Founding Guys set up several stages of the election and deciding/interpreting its results. Today, Friday, is the day Congress votes on certifying the election. It's not done yet. And, if that article is correct, there were many electors who weren't qualified--and that's against the rules.

So AFAICS there are people working within the *existing* rules to address something that happened that *wasn't* within the existing rules.

While people are trying all sorts of things to prevent, remove, or defang Trump (including members of Congress), the people in the article are coloring inside the lines.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
the people in the article are coloring inside the lines.

The crucial question in terms of democracy is whether "the people in the article" would be doing so if Hillary Clinton was in Trump's position now.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I guess the ONLY way in which the Trump Presidency can be stopped in its tracks is if the FBI find evidence of positive collusion between Trump and the Russians over the use of hacking to interfere with the election process. That would probably constitute a "high crime and misdemeanour" sufficient to impeach.

Given the Republican majorities in the House and Senate, a move to impeach wouldn't change the GOP grip over policy and legislation, so if Trump's popularity collapsed in the face of revelations, they might jump at the chance to dump him early, to avoid electoral backlash.

In a nutshell, I'm not sure what the FBI have up their sleeve. There were unconfirmed reports, prior to the election, of a possible link between a server under Trump control and one in Russia, and some communications traffic. And my guess is that the FBI have also got evidence of links to Assange. Whether any of that points towards a possible impeachment case remains to be seen. I guess there would have to be at least one whistleblower in the Trump camp as well.

At this stage, it looks more like a fairy tale than Watergate Mark 2, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. The alternative is that the threat itself might be sufficient to control Trump's more extreme behaviour. A bit like Hoover using his "secret files" to control previous US Presidents.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Rick Salutin: Justin Trudeau may be the last neoliberal standing

Trump-related. Interesting info on the demographics of the Rust Belt factory Trump claims to have saved.

I go back and forth on "trade-liberalization" and "globalization" issues, but one thing I'll say is that any Trump supporter who expects him to work magic every time a company wants to move jobs offshore is in for some pretty bitter disappointment.

Even if the relevant trade-agreements DO allow you to offer tax cuts to any company threatening to leave, how long can you keep on doing that for? What's to stop the companies from demanding higher and higher payouts every time?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
the people in the article are coloring inside the lines.

The crucial question in terms of democracy is whether "the people in the article" would be doing so if Hillary Clinton was in Trump's position now.
No, it's not. The question is whether or not they are trying to change the rules midstream or whether they are, in fact, simply demanding that the rules be adhered to. Calls to go with the popular vote are calls to change the rules midstream-- that's not going to happen. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about demanding that the pre-existing rules be adhered to. The fact that they/ we are motivated to do so at this particular point in time because of the extreme danger of the current president-elect (one evidence of that extreme danger is this very propensity to "color outside the lines") is irrelevant.

Yes, the system works both ways. If we insist on the rules being adhered to this time, we should expect the rules to be adhered to next time, even if the Democrats are the beneficiary of any "coloring outside the lines". I'm OK with that.

[ 06. January 2017, 17:10: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
cliffdweller [Overused]

And re what other people asked about whether I'd support delaying certification of the Electoral College vote if it affected Hillary rather than Trump:

Actually, I thought through that before I posted the article link, and have continued to do so. I would be really, really torn; but, ultimately, I think I'd lean towards getting it all straightened out. I've had that reaction to other things, like Bush v. Gore. At the time, I felt the most important thing was to count all the votes--because if the voting process is messed up, we can lose everything.

When I e-mailed my three Congress folk last night, I said as much, and acknowledged that it might possibly pertain to Hillary's electors, too, and that we need to sort it out *anyway*.

IIRC, the article said the huge report (1000 pages??) would be presented to members of Congress. So I did what I could, within the rules, as did the people who prepared the report.

We'll see what happens.
[Votive]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
It's hardly surprising, given that the EC system is itself arcane, that some of its detailed rules of representation are "more honoured in the breach than the observance". And if the EC delegate result were not so clear cut, I guess there might be something in these processes of challenge.

But not this time. I think that is Eutychus' point, really. Apart from the most exceptional of circumstances (eg a tie), the delegates' role is ceremonial. They vote the way the election determined the EC count. There's room for a couple of rebellions, I think that's happened, but the process can't circumvent the modern constitutional intention, without bringing the whole thing into disrepute.

[ 06. January 2017, 18:31: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It's hardly surprising, given that the EC system is itself arcane, that some of its detailed rules of representation are "more honoured in the breach than the observance". And if the EC delegate result were not so clear cut, I guess there might be something in these processes of challenge.

But not this time. I think that is Eutychus' point, really. Apart from the most exceptional of circumstances (eg a tie), the delegates' role is ceremonial. They vote the way the election determined the EC count. There's room for a couple of rebellions, I think that's happened, but the process can't circumvent the modern constitutional intention, without bringing the whole thing into disrepute.

Actually, the constitutional intention is precisely the reverse of what you suggest. The constitutional purpose in giving us the (yes, arcane) EC was not to simply rubber stamp the EC count vote. The intent was to provide a hedge against an unsuitable candidate who was able to bamboozle the electorate-- which, arguably, is precisely what we have here. So it would have been entirely appropriate & constitutional-- albeit unprecedented-- for the EC to have jettisoned Trump for a more suitable candidate of their choosing. The possibility of the EC actually doing so was always a longshot, but the fact that the EC was apparently stacked to prevent even that slim possibility outside the rules is, in fact, grounds for exploration. It's the hail-Mary play of all hail-Mary plays but there's nothing inappropriate, unseemly, unconstitutional, or unethical about it. I would fully expect the GOP to do precisely the same were the situation reversed (indeed, the very need for this exploration is evidence of their willingness to pursue whatever means possible).

I'm not holding my breath for an investigation, and if there were one, certainly wouldn't hold my breath for anything to change. The only likely possibility at this point is impeachment-- a very real probability but one that, sadly, will only move the needle very slightly.

But these are challenging times when we must do all that we can, even though the odds are against us and the advances are apt to be quite small, if any. Hard times/hard measures.

[ 06. January 2017, 19:22: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But not this time. I think that is Eutychus' point, really. Apart from the most exceptional of circumstances (eg a tie), the delegates' role is ceremonial. They vote the way the election determined the EC count. There's room for a couple of rebellions, I think that's happened, but the process can't circumvent the modern constitutional intention, without bringing the whole thing into disrepute.

Actually, the constitutional intention is precisely the reverse of what you suggest. The constitutional purpose in giving us the (yes, arcane) EC was not to simply rubber stamp the EC count vote. The intent was to provide a hedge against an unsuitable candidate who was able to bamboozle the electorate-- which, arguably, is precisely what we have here.
Indeed. The only reason to have real, human electors is for them to exercise judgment. If that weren't an expectation then the Constitution would simply automatically assign electoral votes in whichever way the states specified. The current expectation that presidential electors' "role is ceremonial" is a function of two main factors: the rise of party politics and an attempt to make the system more democratic, both artifacts of the early nineteenth century. The idea that electors would pledge in advance who they would support for president was an attempt to give the people more voice in the selection of the president, which makes it ironic that it has resulted in an anti-democratic outcome in two of the last five presidential elections. The term for that is "system failure".

Part of the problem is the tendency to read the U.S. Constitution backwards from today (i.e. in light of what actually happened) rather than forward from 1787 (what the Framers thought would happen) or 1803 (what the authors of the 12th Amendment thought would happen).

An introductory write-up can be found here.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
For those who are interested the declassified version of the Director of National Intelligence's report on Russian influence/interference in the recent U.S. presidential election can be found here [PDF].
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Crœsos , what you say 2 posts above is strictly correct, but ignores how constitutional provisions are followed. If you read our Constitution, for example, you'd think that the Governor-General was a very busy person indeed making all sorts of decisions. But just as the Queen (whose viceroy the G-G is) acts on advice, so does the G-G. If the advice is to sign the necessary piece of paper to make an Act of parliament a law, then the G-G must sign. There is no law that says that and it's hard to see how a decision not to sign could even become justiciable - were there to be a refusal, the Prime Minister would have a quick telegram off to Buckingham Palace and the the Letters Patent of appointment would be revoked within the hour.

In other words, what is written in the Constitution here and in the US is only part of how it operates; it is hedged about with convention.

[ 06. January 2017, 21:31: Message edited by: Gee D ]
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Rick Salutin: Justin Trudeau may be the last neoliberal standing

Despite my best efforts in the last Federal Election. [Disappointed]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Crœsos , what you say 2 posts above is strictly correct, but ignores how constitutional provisions are followed. If you read our Constitution, for example, you'd think that the Governor-General was a very busy person indeed making all sorts of decisions. But just as the Queen (whose viceroy the G-G is) acts on advice, so does the G-G. If the advice is to sign the necessary piece of paper to make an Act of parliament a law, then the G-G must sign. There is no law that says that and it's hard to see how a decision not to sign could even become justiciable - were there to be a refusal, the Prime Minister would have a quick telegram off to Buckingham Palace and the the Letters Patent of appointment would be revoked within the hour.

In other words, what is written in the Constitution here and in the US is only part of how it operates; it is hedged about with convention.

Usually, but not quite. While it was a century ago, we once had a situation in Manitoba where the Lt Governor (Sir Douglas Cameron) instituted his own enquiry on "problems" with government building contracts, and Premier Sir Rodmond Roblin's desire to change LGs got nowhere-- he resigned after the enquiry's unflattering report, and the opposition leader was made premier (shades of Oz in 1976) and won the ensuing election.

End of Canadian trivia tangent.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Er, but Canadian Lieutenant Governors are appointed by the Governor General, while State Governor's in Oz are appointed by the State Premier, on the advice of the Queen, the same way the federal GG's are in both countries.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Actually 1975, but pretty close. Sir Philip Game, the NSW Governor at the time, dismissed Jack Lang as Premier back in 1932 and appointed the opposition leader instead.

Neither event is likely to be repeated. Game served the balance of his term and then became Commissioner of Police in London. Kerr resigned early, and spent the remainder of his life in disgrace and an alcoholic haze.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Er, but Canadian Lieutenant Governors are appointed by the Governor General, while State Governor's in Oz are appointed by the State Premier, on the advice of the Queen, the same way the federal GG's are in both countries.

In effect, LGs are appointed by the PM of the day via the GG's desk--in this case, Conservative PM Sir Robert Borden had little time for Conservative Manitoba Premier Sir Rodmond Roblin's antics, and the LG stayed, and Sir Rodmond went. A friend of mine, once a minion in Manitoba politics, knew Duff Roblin (son of Sir R, and later premier in his own right) and it was always very clear that the father's career was Never Ever discussed.

What perhaps the point I should have made more clearly is that the letter of constitutions, while often and usually interpreted by convention, has the potential to come into operation. That it did not with the electoral college this time had to do with fortune-- objections at the final counting stage in Congress needed a senator from the state as well as a representative-- the senators from contesting states were Republican.

That the electoral college is not taken seriously as even a ceremonial part of the US constitution can be seen that in over a dozen states, basic forms such as excluding office holders from the lists were not observed. The Democrats were not ready to take advantage of this through legal action, but it is conceivable that parties may be better prepared in future and it is likely that partisan feeling will be even stronger in 2019/2020.

And, as we have seen in 2016, there is very little in US politics that can be ruled out....
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Er, but Canadian Lieutenant Governors are appointed by the Governor General, while State Governor's in Oz are appointed by the State Premier, on the advice of the Queen, the same way the federal GG's are in both countries.

LGs are "appointed" by the GG on the advice of the Prime Minister -- and today, the premier of the Province. The GG's role is as a non-discretionary rubber stamping machine.

The Canadian GG is not and I should be very surprised if the Aussie GG or the Aussie State governors are either, appointed by the Premier/Prime Minister on the advice of the Queen. HM appoints on advice from the PMs/premiers and, again, is a rubber stamp in the process.

It is,IMO, unhelpful to gaining a clear understanding of what actually happens to quote highly theoretical and even at the time of the BNA Act in 1867 and the Australia Act in 1900 largely ceremonial provisions as if they reflected reality.

The only caveat I will offer is this: originally the Canadian GG functioned as a straight representative of the COlonial Office (filing weekly reports to the Colonial Secretary, as did the Viceroy of India to the Indian Secretary). His appointment was a trial run for cabinet-level appointment for promising young nobles. The GG of Australia and the Viceroy of India were viewed in the same way, and it was not unknown for men successful as one of those to go on to be another. The name escapes me but one of the pre WWII GGs was given a marquessate to be GG in Canada, having being merely an earl as viceroy.

When that ceased, then the King acquired a small say in the appointment, partly because a family member (Athlone) became GG. But all that ended with the appointment of Vincent Massey: though the King certainly approved his appointment, and he was nominated by Mackenzie King because he was in favour with the King, the Canadian PMs advice would have forced the King to approve it in any case.

John
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Quite, but Canberra never had the same power Ottawa has to tell State Governors what to do, the "Sockpuppet Power" being ruled out of the Oz Constitution.

Mind you, what Canberra gets away with anyway is the stuff of ardent Federalists' dreams up here.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
The declassified report is devastating.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Back to the electoral college-- the sister of an academic acquaintance served as an elector (she calls her a former electrix, perhaps having spent too many years as a classicist) in Michigan some years ago. I am just off FB chatting where I enquired if the sister believed herself to be an independent actor, or the voice of the people. The response came back that she was normally the latter, but reserved the right to be the former.

That the vote for Spotted Eagle was registered suggests that the possibility exists for the College to do its own thing, should circumstances require (e.g., a president-designate going totally batshit or committing a murder à la Francis Urquhart/Francis Underwood, or a vice-president-designate dropping into a coma).

Who knows how electors might have behaved if the Russian interference report had come out a month ago?
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Quite, but Canberra never had the same power Ottawa has to tell State Governors what to do, the "Sockpuppet Power" being ruled out of the Oz Constitution.

Mind you, what Canberra gets away with anyway is the stuff of ardent Federalists' dreams up here.

Canberra has no power at all to tell (by which I assume you mean advise) the State Governors what to do. It has nothing at all to do with the Federal Constitution, but rather continuation of the relationship which the former colonies had with London. The GG is appointed by the Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister; the State Governors by the Queen on the advice of the State Premiers. There was a bit of "discussion" about this in the late 60's/early 70's as HM was none too taken with some of the State Premiers, for good reason, but the Commonwealth Office (ie the British Cabinet Minister holding that position, can't remember when it was merged with the Foreign Office) in London lost that one.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
No, I mean tell; Ottawa has the explicit constitutional power to issue Instructions to Lieutenant Governors and used this often enough prior to 1914.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

Who knows how electors might have behaved if the Russian interference report had come out a month ago?

The electors DID ask to be briefed by the CIA re what info they did have. How forthcoming they were one can only guess.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is terrifying. But OMG, it makes sense.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
No, I mean tell; Ottawa has the explicit constitutional power to issue Instructions to Lieutenant Governors and used this often enough prior to 1914.

Could you point me in the direction of the power please? I can't find it on a quick skim through. Is it the PM, or rather the GG on advice who can exercise the power - from my reading of the Constitution, I'd say the latter.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
No, I mean tell; Ottawa has the explicit constitutional power to issue Instructions to Lieutenant Governors and used this often enough prior to 1914.

Could you point me in the direction of the power please? I can't find it on a quick skim through. Is it the PM, or rather the GG on advice who can exercise the power - from my reading of the Constitution, I'd say the latter.
The Governor General in Council, in sections 55 and 56 of the Constitution. A list of instances can be found here and with greater elegance in the late Honourable Eugene Forsey's study:
the Royal Power of Dissolution in the British Commonwealth. Those who for some ungodly reason wish to continue tangenting far far away from the matter of the US election thread can also find this useful tome, much used by those preparing for their citizenship exams.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Thanks A the A but my reading of ss 55 and 56 of the Constitution Acts 1867 - 1982 does not disclose the power. Probably I am looking at the wrong legislation.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Croesos--

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For those who are interested the declassified version of the Director of National Intelligence's report on Russian influence/interference in the recent U.S. presidential election can be found here [PDF].

Thanks for this. Currently skimming through. Am so far impressed by two things: 1) the NSA, FBI, and CIA working together, even agreeing; and 2) the fairly simple writing style. For the most part, it's not in spook*-speak. Years back, there was a "plain language" campaign in the gov't. I wonder if these agencies took that on board? Or did they try extra hard on this particular project?

BTW, I heard an interview with a guy who used to do intelligence briefings for presidents and others. He wrote a book ("The President's Book Of Secrets") about the briefings. Interesting guy. (Don't remember his name.) He said that the briefers could, and maybe should, put Trump's briefings in tweet-length summaries.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

Indeed. The only reason to have real, human electors is for them to exercise judgment. If that weren't an expectation then the Constitution would simply automatically assign electoral votes in whichever way the states specified. The current expectation that presidential electors' "role is ceremonial" is a function of two main factors: the rise of party politics and an attempt to make the system more democratic, both artifacts of the early nineteenth century.

Well, exactly. The arcane aspects of the constitution have been revised in "an attempt to make the system more democratic". I think it should be revised further by formal constitutional change. Meanwhile, you've got what you've got. And trying to "unceremonialise" the role of the EC is a Trump-based solution, with arcane constitutional top-dressing.

I am reminded of a comment attributed to a Supreme Court clerk at the time of Watergate re Executive Privilege.

"Of course Executive Privilege is defensible under the constitution and in general the right of any President to exercise it is something we would defend.

But in this case we're going to do different, because Nixon is a crook and somebody ought to throw his ass into jail".

(From memory. from a book co-authored by Bob Woodward about the US Supreme Court).

There is a place for ad hominem solutions and using various features of the constitution to legitimise them. But it still looks ad hominem to me.

The US has elected a ridiculous President (whose performance yesterday shows just how ridiculous he is) and will have to live with him or impeach him for cause. Anything else just pulls the rest of the house down.

[ 07. January 2017, 11:51: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Anyway .....
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Thanks A the A but my reading of ss 55 and 56 of the Constitution Acts 1867 - 1982 does not disclose the power. Probably I am looking at the wrong legislation.

Sorry-section 90. Meanwhile, back south of the border... one of my academic friends in Texas is going to set a project for his class on the Rush-Bagot agreement, just to remind the graduate students that there are two borders to the US.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is terrifying. But OMG, it makes sense.

Indeed. I've always had great respect for Keith Olbermann. And he's absolutely correct in this case. Too bad we just have to wait and see.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
BTW, I heard an interview with a guy who used to do intelligence briefings for presidents and others. He wrote a book ("The President's Book Of Secrets") about the briefings. Interesting guy. (Don't remember his name.) He said that the briefers could, and maybe should, put Trump's briefings in tweet-length summaries.

Which would help with the problem of Trump's limited attn span. But the real problem seems to be his unwillingness to hear or recognize any data that conflicts with his desired worldview. No matter how simplistically or succinctly they put it ("This is Putin. Putin is bad. Don't trust him. Don't be like Putin.") it's all worthless if Trump refuses to accept it. Then there's his tendency to punish those who bring unwelcome news, which does tend to have a dampening effect.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
How does he punish those who bring unwelcome news?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
He has a long history of petty revenges (firing, not paying wages or invoices for goods or services, petty lawsuits) and bullying threats-- most recently to media who have printed unfavorable stories. The concern is that now that he has more power, he'll be much more dangerous-- especially given the track record of his new mentor, Putin.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
If the charges leveled in the report are accurate, it would seem our response is incredibly muted. I don't know how much the report will sway anyone's opinion given the details of evidence behind the assessment are not presented. It is certainly not hard to believe Russian intelligence acted to influence our political process. It's also not hard to imagine we do the same. We've also been told things with high confidence before by our intelligence services which turned out to be fabrications, so there remains a bit of credibility gap for those who choose to doubt to exploit. It all feels like more of a yawn than a bombshell. That our adversaries turn our technological prowess against us and we seem helpless is more concerning to me.

It is ironic in the leaked documents are details of the Clinton State Department's response and handling of the toppling of a democratically elected president in Honduras. Clinton's responses to that seemed rather "post-truthy" to me.
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
After weeks of undermining America's security community, Comrade Trump has gone beyond protecting his Russian paymasters to actively campaigning on their behalf.

Seriously, where is the right-wing outrage? If President Obama had said even half the things in favor of Putin and Russia that Comrade Trump has, he would have been branded a traitor to his country.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
It is ironic in the leaked documents are details of the Clinton State Department's response and handling of the toppling of a democratically elected president in Honduras. Clinton's responses to that seemed rather "post-truthy" to me.

Alas the US has been meddling in the affairs of other nations, particularly in the Western hemisphere, since James Monroe (r. 1817-1825), who even had a doctrine about it named after him. One can understand why other countries would hold their hand to their mouth when we complain about others doing the same for us.

What concerns me is Trump's siding with Russia and the ever-reliable Julian Assange against every single one of our spy agencies, who rarely as a group speak as a group with one voice. He does realize he was elected president of the United States, and not a Russian vassal state, doesn't he?
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Putin has played a clever game stroking Trump's ego.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
mousethief

He can never be wrong. Particularly when he is, obviously so. So he blusters, obfuscates, confuses issues and himself into the bargain.

The next four years, if indeed he lasts that long, are going to be a reworking of "The Emporer's New Clothes". Embarrassing.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Hands up those who think the CIA is investigating Trump?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Hands up those who think the CIA is investigating Trump?

Lord, I hope so.

Unfortunately, they're not apt to get much assistance from the FBI as long as Comey is director.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Croesos--

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For those who are interested the declassified version of the Director of National Intelligence's report on Russian influence/interference in the recent U.S. presidential election can be found here [PDF].

Thanks for this. Currently skimming through. Am so far impressed by two things: 1) the NSA, FBI, and CIA working together, even agreeing; and 2) the fairly simple writing style. For the most part, it's not in spook*-speak. Years back, there was a "plain language" campaign in the gov't. I wonder if these agencies took that on board? Or did they try extra hard on this particular project?
For those who are interested this document [PDF] contains a spook-to-English translator on p. 114. It will allow you to parse the difference between "anticipate" and "expect" in these kinds of documents.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Tiny Fingers' possible treason is being noted. My simpler question is, has anyone seen his birth certificate?
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Hands up those who think the CIA is investigating Trump?

Lord, I hope so.

Unfortunately, they're not apt to get much assistance from the FBI as long as Comey is director.

My understanding is that the CIA and FBI are even less cooperative than their British equivalents, MI6 and MI5, and that this is nothing new.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Brenda, given the long tradition of Russian excellence at chess, I think it more likely that the TFO is being seduced into some version of "fool's mate". Easy to do when you're playing a vain person with a poor attention span. They don't foresee the combination or the denouement.

[ 07. January 2017, 20:28: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Tiny Fingers' possible treason is being noted. My simpler question is, has anyone seen his birth certificate?

[Killing me]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Hands up those who think the CIA is investigating Trump?

Lord, I hope so.

Unfortunately, they're not apt to get much assistance from the FBI as long as Comey is director.

The FBI, CIA, and NSA cooperated on that document Putin having the election hacked. They even agreed with each other on some things. (E.g., there was a line saying that 2 of the agencies fully accepted a particular thing, and the other moderately accepted it.)

For all I know, agents from each sat in separate rooms in a secure location, with a poor messenger going back and forth. But, this one time, they did manage to cooperate.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Hands up those who think the CIA is investigating Trump?

Lord, I hope so.

Unfortunately, they're not apt to get much assistance from the FBI as long as Comey is director.

My understanding is that the CIA and FBI are even less cooperative than their British equivalents, MI6 and MI5, and that this is nothing new.
One thing to keep in mind is that, when there are alleged moles in the CIA, it is the FBI, not the CIA itself, which conducts the criminal investigation. I'd imagine this could lead to a bit of tension between the two organizations.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Seriously, where is the right-wing outrage?

Graham and McCain will no doubt come out swinging if they haven’t already. Aside from personal antipathy for Trump, their instinct is always going to be to play hardball with the Russians. Why isn’t anyone else making noise? Probably the simple political calculus that the electorate doesn’t care about this news (any more than they have about Chinese state economic and military espionage, which is more of a threat); and that taking Trump to task is not worth the risk right now. I think they are trusting God and keeping their powder dry. When the time comes, I’m sure there will be no problem assembling a political firing squad. The establishment right certainly has no love for the Russians.

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Alas the US has been meddling in the affairs of other nations, particularly in the Western hemisphere, since James Monroe (r. 1817-1825), who even had a doctrine about it named after him. One can understand why other countries would hold their hand to their mouth when we complain about others doing the same for us.

“There has never been a coup in the United States because there is no American Embassy in Washington”. Whether or not intervention in the political affairs of others is right or wrong, it is certainly an established piece of our statecraft. So I don’t think we get the high ground on this one. We spy on our enemies, and we spy on our friends. I’m sure there’s always some political end we’re seeking.

quote:
What concerns me is Trump's siding with Russia and the ever-reliable Julian Assange against every single one of our spy agencies, who rarely as a group speak as a group with one voice. He does realize he was elected president of the United States, and not a Russian vassal state, doesn't he?

What do you expect concretely to come of that? Will we draw down our missile defense expansion in for the former iron curtain? Reverse NATO growth to the borders of Russia? Stop arming the Saudis and facilitating their participation in confessional proxy wars with the Iranians?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Hands up those who think the CIA is investigating Trump?

Lord, I hope so.

Unfortunately, they're not apt to get much assistance from the FBI as long as Comey is director.

The FBI, CIA, and NSA cooperated on that document Putin having the election hacked. They even agreed with each other on some things. (E.g., there was a line saying that 2 of the agencies fully accepted a particular thing, and the other moderately accepted it.)

For all I know, agents from each sat in separate rooms in a secure location, with a poor messenger going back and forth. But, this one time, they did manage to cooperate.

Yes, it's true-- and given their prior unwillingness to cooperate much really adds credibility to the findings (at least to everyone except Trump, apparently). Which only makes Comey's arguably traitorous actions prior to the election all the more curious.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
What do you expect concretely to come of that? Will we draw down our missile defense expansion in for the former iron curtain? Reverse NATO growth to the borders of Russia? Stop arming the Saudis and facilitating their participation in confessional proxy wars with the Iranians?

Acquiesce to Russia taking a larger role, and perhaps territory, in former Soviet states or satellites.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Acquiesce to Russia taking a larger role, and perhaps territory, in former Soviet states or satellites.

What threat does that represent to our national interests and security? Does challenging Russia's actions at the periphery of its borders outweigh concerns we may have in the Middle East or North Korea?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Acquiesce to Russia taking a larger role, and perhaps territory, in former Soviet states or satellites.

What threat does that represent to our national interests and security? Does challenging Russia's actions at the periphery of its borders outweigh concerns we may have in the Middle East or North Korea?
Is our national interest all we should think about? Why? What about our allies? What about world peace? I know we've been shitty at these things but that's no reason to wave them off.

I don't see the point of your zero-sum game with the Middle East and NK. Does not sucking Putin's dick mean we will stop taking action in the rest of the world? Or does sucking it mean we will continue? Why do you think we can't have a care for eastern Europe AND the Middle East AND the Far East? We have been up till now. Why should that stop now that Tangerine Trotsky is in the White House?
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Acquiesce to Russia taking a larger role, and perhaps territory, in former Soviet states or satellites.

What threat does that represent to our national interests and security? Does challenging Russia's actions at the periphery of its borders outweigh concerns we may have in the Middle East or North Korea?
Note that some of those former Soviet states (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) and satellites (Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, etc.) are now members of NATO. So essentially your question boils down to asserting that it would be advantageous to the U.S. to dismantle what has been a very successful system of alliances. I'm open to hearing your argument, but at first glance maintaining NATO would seem to be very much in American interests.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
There is a sequence worth considering re NATO.

1. Trump pledges continuing support but demands that other members pay more. There is a good case that the US pays more than its fair share.

2. Trump cosies up to Putin, argues, NATO can be scaled down anyway, since the Russian threat is reduced.

3. Trump reduces US contribution unilaterally out of impatience and a desire to create "an incentive".

4. NATO buckles, fragments.

5. Putin laughs - and maybe Trump does too. Money saved, alliance with Russia strengthened, and it's all Europe's fault.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Your post misses the first line: There are now 2 men proposed for high positions, one to be in the White House, who have taken Putin's money in the past.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Acquiesce to Russia taking a larger role, and perhaps territory, in former Soviet states or satellites.

What threat does that represent to our national interests and security? Does challenging Russia's actions at the periphery of its borders outweigh concerns we may have in the Middle East or North Korea?
Note that some of those former Soviet states (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) and satellites (Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, etc.) are now members of NATO. So essentially your question boils down to asserting that it would be advantageous to the U.S. to dismantle what has been a very successful system of alliances. I'm open to hearing your argument, but at first glance maintaining NATO would seem to be very much in American interests.
Interestingly, Niall Ferguson has made the argument (of monumental cynicism IMHO) that Sir Edward Grey should have ignored Britain's guarantee of Belgian neutrality in 1914, and that the Empire should have stood aside completely. Ferguson, I think, entertains unduly sunny conclusions of what Europe would have looked like after a Central Powers victory. My thought experiments have all ended in varying degrees of unhappiness. (Either way, I would not have envied Grey his position.) The Baltic states would do well to keep tabs on Ferguson's social calendar. (Though I'm doubtful the degree to which the Trump cabinet would be inclined to consult academics, whatever their star power.)
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is our national interest all we should think about?

No, but when American blood or treasure is on the line, it is our primary consideration. Sometimes our national interest also involves eating our principles and standing by allies who act contrary to them. The smashing of political dissent by the Bahrainis comes to mind.

quote:
I don't see the point of your zero-sum game with the Middle East and NK.

It’s not a zero sum game. We unfortunately need the assistance of others like Russia to solve bigger problems like Middle East stability and a nuclear armed North Korea. In places, they can exercise leverage we cannot, and they can also make it easy for our foes to circumvent our punitive measures. We need to figure out which foes we’re going to deal with and in which order, and sometimes deals must be made with the devil. Romney in 2012 said Russia is the greatest threat to our national security. I don’t agree with that assessment.

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Note that some of those former Soviet states (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) and satellites (Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, etc.) are now members of NATO. So essentially your question boils down to asserting that it would be advantageous to the U.S. to dismantle what has been a very successful system of alliances. I'm open to hearing your argument, but at first glance maintaining NATO would seem to be very much in American interests.

No, my question boils down to ending further expansion. It’s arguable that we reneged on our 1990 promise not to further expand NATO at the time of German reunification, although I think there’s a “post-truth” explanation for us going back on the words of our then Secretary of State. I do believe the last two rounds of NATO expansion have done little to no good in enhancing our security or strengthening the mission of the mutual defense pact. I do not support adding Montenegro, Georgia or Ukraine to the alliance. I also do not support the placement of missile defense systems in Romania or Poland. I do not fear a Russian conventional army mounting a ground invasion of Germany through a non NATO member state such as Austria.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Romney in 2012 said Russia is the greatest threat to our national security. I don’t agree with that assessment.

I certainly didn't agree with him at the time. Today he looks incredibly prescient.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Well, I suppose it depends on whether the Trump regime view is something like this.

1. With the EC looking as those it will implode, Europe is economically and politically a busted flush.

2. The biggest threat to US and Russian interests is not terrorism but the emergence of China as the world's premier superpower.

3. THEREFORE, screw the Europeans, let's get into bed with the Russians to provide an effective counter-block.

You can see the appeal of that kind of argument to a man with a short attention span.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
I think you're giving Trump entirely too much credit. The evidence suggests that Trump's cozy relationship with Putin is entirely based in his personal self interest (owing large sums of $$ to Russian banks and other entangled interests) as well as Putin's skill in ego-stroking/puppetry.

Look at Trump's response to Brexit: Brexit is good because it will mean more people come to his Scottish resort and he'll make more money. The larger consideration of how any particular decision fits into the best interests of the US or any other nation just isn't part of the equation.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Oh sure. But if you are very largely motivated by self interest, any back-up rationalisation will do. Particularly if it has a streak of betrayal in it as well.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by Barnabas62:
3. Trump reduces US contribution unilaterally out of impatience and a desire to create "an incentive".

4. NATO buckles, fragments.

So, NATO buckles and fragments if the United States acts like a typical member of NATO? If that is so, what good is NATO to the United States? Would a Western Europe actually contributing their fair share to NATO need the United States to check Russian aggression? Russia has 140 million people. The UK, France, and Germany have over 200 million. Russia has the world's 12th largest economy. Germany, the UK, and France have the 4th, 5th, and 6th largest economies. Russia has nuclear weapons. The UK and France have nuclear weapons. Spain and Italy add another 100 million people. Italy has the 8th largest economy and Spain is only two places below Russia at 14 despite having less than a third of it's population.

Why should the US contribute more to the defense of the Baltic states than Germany? Germans and Russians struggled with each other for centuries over who controlled Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltic States. The Soviet Union is dead. Putin is more like a czar. The US usually had a good a good relationship with the Russian Empire. Lefties complained for decades about US military and economic power. Trump threatens to go back to the status quo prior to World War II and everybody has a conniption. Seriously, take a look at what the Republican Party stood for prior to Eisenhower and you will see something akin to Trumpism.

It's time for "Europe" to put up or shut up.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why should the US contribute more to the defense of the Baltic states than Germany?

The price you pay for being rich, free and alive all at the same time.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
So, NATO buckles and fragments if the United States acts like a typical member of NATO? If that is so, what good is NATO to the United States?

NATO serves more purposes than mutual defense. The basic rubric, in the words of NATO's first Secretary-General, is "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down". That last bit is still important, though no longer Germany-specific*. A couple of the advantages of a Europe-spanning military alliance is that it both avoids an arms race in Europe and puts a lot of different countries on the same 'side', minimizing the chance of one of those Europe-wide wars that the U.S. inevitably seems to get sucked in to.

In other words, the U.S. being an outsized contributor to NATO is not a bug, it's a feature. You can argue around the edges about exactly how outsized is appropriate, but at that point you're just picking at nits.


--------------------
*How comfortable you are with a heavily re-militarized Germany is directly proportional to how far your country is from the German border. I believe this is called 'Moscicki's Law'.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why should the US contribute more to the defense of the Baltic states than Germany?

The price you pay for being rich, free and alive all at the same time.
The Germans aren't rich, free, and alive?
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why should the US contribute more to the defense of the Baltic states than Germany?

The price you pay for being rich, free and alive all at the same time.
The Germans aren't rich, free, and alive?
Could you expand on this a little more? The argument 'a heavily militarized Germany will certainly be a force for maintaining peace' is struggling against a whole lot of historical baggage.

[ 09. January 2017, 19:22: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why should the US contribute more to the defense of the Baltic states than Germany? Germans and Russians struggled with each other for centuries over who controlled Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltic States.

It seems to me that the second sentence I quote answers the first.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
So, NATO buckles and fragments if the United States acts like a typical member of NATO?

But the United States isn't a typical member of NATO.

Come on. It's called the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. That's not because they were all equal partners in guarding against a possible threat from around Iceland. It's because it's an excuse to get the United States involved with stuff happening on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean.

[ 09. January 2017, 20:13: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why should the US contribute more to the defense of the Baltic states than Germany?

The price you pay for being rich, free and alive all at the same time.
Until 1989 the Russians paid for the defence of the Baltic states and much of the rest of Eastern Europe. Would you like to return to the Cold War?
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by mdjijon:
The price you pay for being rich, free and alive all at the same time.

Trump voters were doing better when Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and the Ukraine were part of the Soviet Union and Poland was a Warsaw Pact member. The two obviously aren't related. However, what larger nation exerts power over those four nations has no bearing on the happiness of most Americans.

quote:
originally posted by Croesus:
In other words, the U.S. being an outsized contributor to NATO is not a bug, it's a feature

The US only got involved in two European wars. Only one of which was actually justified. Besides, both the UK and France are nuclear powers just like Russia. Nuclear powers avoid going to war with nuclear powers. This is why all of the rogue states want to acquire nuclear weapons in the first place. As to keeping Germany down, aliens with no knowledge of Earth's history would look at the status quo in Europe and assume Germany won both World Wars.

quote:
originally posted by Dafyd:
It seems to me that the second sentence I quote answers the first.

Why? Germans and Russians fighting for control of the Baltic was never an issue for the United States before World War II. I don't see why the United States needs to intervene in Europe to insure that the Baltic has a closer relationship with the European Union than Russia.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The US only got involved in two European wars. Only one of which was actually justified.

Three. The War of 1812 was pretty obviously spillover from the Napoleonic Wars. Most of the British actions that America objected to were the result of their war with France, and America's attempt to maintain neutrality was a big source of British antipathy. Which makes it a 100% record for America getting dragged in to Europe-wide conflicts.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

So, NATO buckles and fragments if the United States acts like a typical member of NATO? If that is so, what good is NATO to the United States? Would a Western Europe actually contributing their fair share to NATO need the United States to check Russian aggression? Russia has 140 million people. The UK, France, and Germany have over 200 million. Russia has the world's 12th largest economy. Germany, the UK, and France have the 4th, 5th, and 6th largest economies. Russia has nuclear weapons. The UK and France have nuclear weapons. Spain and Italy add another 100 million people. Italy has the 8th largest economy and Spain is only two places below Russia at 14 despite having less than a third of it's population.

Why should the US contribute more to the defense of the Baltic states than Germany? Germans and Russians struggled with each other for centuries over who controlled Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltic States. The Soviet Union is dead. Putin is more like a czar. The US usually had a good a good relationship with the Russian Empire. Lefties complained for decades about US military and economic power. Trump threatens to go back to the status quo prior to World War II and everybody has a conniption. Seriously, take a look at what the Republican Party stood for prior to Eisenhower and you will see something akin to Trumpism.

It's time for "Europe" to put up or shut up.
[/QUOTE]

What was that blunt instrument?

Re: Relative sizes of population of economies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Populations and economies mattered much more in previous modes of warfare, when overwhelming numbers in the field could be decisive. Then again, think how many pivotal battles were won by superior leadership with inferior numbers (too many to cite here). Once the war is engaged, relative size of economies becomes an important factor when the war is prolonged. In a swiftly decided contest, a smaller economy can prevail. That was one motivation for the Schlieffen Plan: swift, decisive victory before superior resources could be brought to bear against the German army. And, before you say, "Yeah, but it didn't work", it relied on very fine timing, and once that didn't happen (and it nearly did), the plan bogged down. It was, essentially, a low-tech iteration of "shock and awe", which is now central to American military doctrine. The other aspect you ignore is warfare's new asymmetry, chiefly on the cyber front. Considering that it has already been used against Iran (effectively) and Estonia (more a trial run), I'm shocked that you know the rankings of populations and economies, but don't appreciate the future role of the cyber-warrior, a role discussed in publications like The Economist since the early 1990s.

You ignore Russian motivation. Actually, everyone ignores this. I don't recall a talking head since the collapse of the USSR pointing out that Russia's current boundaries are essentially those of of 1648 (1667 if you include Russian influence in left bank Ukraine). Imagine, if you will, the affect on the American political psyche if Canada and Mexico were to have a border dispute. So many in the West could not believe that Gorbachev got around 0.5% when he ran for president in 1996. Why so low? A number of reasons, but chiefly, "He has destroyed us." Do not underestimate the motivation of traumatised national pride.

Not even an all-out war, but the sort of soft invasion that proved successful in eastern Ukraine and Crimea was a good dress rehearsal to test western resolve and how to creep one's invasion into an undislodgeable position. Sure, Estonia is a member of NATO, but, hey, it's barely over 1m people. Are we going to back up our guarantee to that cold corner of the Baltic with blood and treasure? Or what is our guarantee worth? Not even the paper?* And, in that event, what message would Poland take away from that?

Your attempt to draw a parallel between current American relations and those of the pre-revolutionary era would get you a failing grade in undergrad. Insofar as pre-1917 US had any international rivals, they were those perceived as imperial competition, i.e., the British Empire, France, Spain, and Japan. After the purchase of Alaska, Russia was off the list. The state of relations between the US and Russia had nothing to do with Russia's ideological complexion (officially articulated as Autocracy, Orthodoxy, Nationality), or the particular form of its government. The two had nothing in common, except interests that barely overlapped. Ideology had very little to do with relations generally. In the post-1848 reaction, Russia and Austria-Hungary would have been natural allies (not least for the role of Russia in putting down the Hungarian revolt); but during the Crimean War, Habsburg troops pinned down Russian troops without declaring war. Later, the Dreikaiserbund was broken, Russia drifting into a western orientation with republican France and, later, liberal Britain. Having a Tsar Vladimir, now, in no way would guarantee better relations, especially since American and Russian interests now overlap in a way which they didn't pre-1917.

I'm not predicting the future, I'm just saying that your appeal to history, demographics, and military doctrine is badly wanting.

*Re: Guarantees. The wording varies. The story goes that in response to Benes's reference to British and French guarantees of security, Haile Selassie said, "I'm so sorry. I had the same friends."

[ 09. January 2017, 21:55: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I certainly didn't agree with him at the time. Today he looks incredibly prescient.

He was also ridiculed by President Obama at the time, so you weren't alone.

So do you believe NATO should continue to expand in Eastern Europe by adding additional members, continue the installation of ballistic missile defenses, and conduct large scale military exercises in Poland and Baltics? We pay about 72% percent of NATO's expenses which comes in around $650B. Are we spending our money wisely and addressing the most pressing threats we face?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I don't know about pressing, but Russia is definitely a threat if it's fucking with our elections and has our future president by the short hairs.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why should the US contribute more to the defense of the Baltic states than Germany?

The price you pay for being rich, free and alive all at the same time.
The Germans aren't rich, free, and alive?
Could you expand on this a little more? The argument 'a heavily militarized Germany will certainly be a force for maintaining peace' is struggling against a whole lot of historical baggage.
A heavily militarized US hasn't exactly been a force for peace in the last 50 years.

I think this topic deserves a thread of its own. Anyone else?
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I think this topic deserves a thread of its own. Anyone else?

Definitely a good thread idea. But then the threads I like tend to have a few posts and sink like a stone.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
Also, scratch my questions to cliffdweller. I asked them in an annoying way when I re-read.
 
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
quote:
originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Re: Relative sizes of population of economies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Populations and economies mattered much more in previous modes of warfare, when overwhelming numbers in the field could be decisive.

Robots aren't doing all the fighting. You still need infantry, drivers for the tanks and armored personal carriers, people to load and fire the artillery, pilots, sailors, and support staff. Nations with larger population can field larger armies. All things equal a well trained large army usually defeats a well trained smaller army. Same with money, nations with larger economies can afford to maintain and equip a larger more technologically advanced military. This is really common sense.

quote:
originally posted by Pagolin Guerre:
It was, essentially, a low-tech iteration of "shock and awe", which is now central to American military doctrine.

Relying on foreign powers to defend your nation from a blitzkrieg is a bad idea. Germany should have a plan to halt a Russian blitz and the capability to carry the plan out.

quote:
originally posted by Pagolin Guerre:
The other aspect you ignore is warfare's new asymmetry, chiefly on the cyber front.

You mean Western Europe has some of the finest universities in the world and they can't produce computer experts on par with Russia?

quote:
originally posted by Pagolin Guerre:
Do not underestimate the motivation of traumatised national pride.

I'm not underestimating anything. Russia would like to expand it's sphere of influence back into the Baltic nations. Russia has national interests. The US has national interests. Russia wanting to expand its sphere of influence does not conflict with any vital national interest of the United States.

quote:
originally posted Pagolin Guerre:
Are we going to back up our guarantee to that cold corner of the Baltic with blood and treasure?

No...no...we aren't. We just aren't. Unless Lindsey Graham or some other fanatic is president, the United States will not risk a nuclear war with Russia fighting for the independence of Estonia. The US should return to the foreign policy advanced by our founding fathers of not going abroad in search of monsters to destroy. For the record, the UK, France, and Germany will not be guaranteeing that cold corner of the the Baltic with blood and treasure either. either.

quote:
originally posted by Pagolin Guerre:
Having a Tsar Vladimir, now, in no way would guarantee better relations, especially since American and Russian interests now overlap in a way which they didn't pre-1917.

Yes, Russia and the United States have overlapping interest which is why we should want an alliance with them. Are you saying the European Union isn't trying to be an international rival of the United States? They most certainly are. What is good for Europe is not always what is good for the US. The refusal of Germany and other NATO members to contribute their fair share to NATO gives them an unfair advantage over the US in other areas. I see no reason why the United States should be more worried about Russian aggression than Germany. Russia wants to expand west not east. When Russia starts massing troops in Siberia, the US will take the lead.
 
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 
Heh. A one-post summary of everything I find unsettling about the direction of US policy towards Europe and Russia. Of course you are correct, BA, to say that this should be much more worrying to Europeans than to Americans. Of course we have no divine right to shelter under the US umbrella. I'm just very grateful that US administrations did not take this line during the period 1939-1989.

Could Germany hold the line against Russia? Eh... well they tried that once or twice before. It turned out to have its own problems. Hey! What if all the nations of Europe worked together, in some sort of "union"? That might work! Surely everyone would think that was a good idea! Oh, wait...
 
Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 
I'm wondering what's going to happen if we do in fact know that Trump is compromised and blackmailable, and ... well, read it.

If "there was a continuing exchange of information during the campaign between Trump surrogates and intermediaries for the Russian government," and if "Russian operatives claim to have compromising personal and financial information about Mr. Trump" and chose not to leak anything about the Republicans because they can use him ....

Where do we go from here?
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Apparently the document getting a lot of salacious twitter discussion tonight was making the rounds of journalists since at least October and was never published because it is almost completely unverifiable.

In essence what we have here is CNN going "The FBI told Trump about something we have seen as well that doesn't look good on Trump."

Followed by Buzzfeed going "Well, for what its worth, here is the something that doesn't make Trump look good and that we don't really trust either."

Followed by people explaining what Golden Showers means.

There are some useful Intelligence Community watchers out there suggesting this is neither bogus nor all that useful.

The key is what did Trump's lawyers do and know as far as working with the Russians on sharing information.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
Beeswax Altar (of course, anyone else is welcome to the party):

Rather than quote, I’ll save space and do this in sequence of your response.

I didn’t conjure some W.G. Wells cartoon of robots in the field. I merely pointed out that population size is not the determining factor it once was. As to “all things [being] equal,” well, all things are never equal, which is but one thing that makes history interesting. As to the relative sizes of economies, GNP is but one indicator. At least as important is the allocation of resources. North Korea would not be the threat that it is if size of the economy were the determining factor. (Granted, they got here with a bit of help from A.Q. Khan and ISI.)

As to Germany having a plan of defense, they do, but NATO is necessarily part of it. The German military is in no way large enough to defend itself alone, and no one would want to see it that strong. A large section of the German population wouldn’t want to see it that strong. (Though, I’m unclear what your response that Germany should have its own defensive plan without NATO has to do with my comment about ‘shock and awe.’)

As to the asymmetry of the new warfare on the cyberfront, your response that European universities should be able to compete with Russian cyberattacks seems to ignore some recent history. The Titan Rain (2003-2006) attack on American and British secure systems, the assault on government and public networks in Estonia (2007), and the Stuxnet (2009) attack targeting Natanz, Iran, all demonstrate that even the most technologically sophisticated are open to attack. It is difficult to prepare against an unanticipated weapon. Moreover, our reliance on cyber technology in every facet of our lives promotes cyber warfare from the tactical to the strategic. This is the new theatre of conflict, which to a very large degree obviates thinking about mass Blitzkriegs, to which your thinking is so tightly wedded.

As a tangent to this, note that NATO has a centre of cyber excellence located in Tallinn. You might want to make sure that that is secure.

Your comment on not underestimating anything, because you recognise that Russian and the US have their national interests, shows that you are. A large motivating factor in current Russian thought is not merely a pursuit of rational national interest, an extension of ‘soft influence’ over the 'near abroad', but mounting a serious challenge to NATO, either through direct intervention, as in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, or economically, through gas and oil exports, as they have also done in past.

Further on that point, you really didn’t absorb what I said about the 1996 presidential election. The anger and frustration in the Russian electorate was such that Gennady Zyuganov was poised to win in the run-off, until Yeltsin received some well-timed American expertise on how to run a campaign. Gorbachev’s paltry numbers were not just a personal insult, they were a repudiation of glasnost’. It’s not entirely coincidental that the regions that Zyuganov carried in the run-off were on the new periphery of Russia, i.e., the areas that would most geographically exposed, contiguous to the new 'near abroad'. (Other factors, to be sure.) What Russia sees as national interest, and reclaiming “what is theirs,” the Baltic states, Georgia, Ukraine, see as dangerously expansionist.

As to your comment that the US should return to the foreign policy of the Founding Fathers, it was a lot easier to avoid “entangling” alliances in 1796 than it is in 2017. A lot has happened in 221 years, and just as the Constitution is a living tree, so too should be a foreign policy. Or, had you not noticed that it is a very different world? No more flintlocks.

You say that you want an “alliance” with Russia. (A) Alliance against whom? Since you said that you shouldn’t go looking for monsters, and alliance presupposes a present threat (for what other reason would one form an alliance?), who is the monster that forces a convergence of American and Russian interests? (B) I say that you don’t have to look for monsters, for they are aplenty. (C) And, one of them is Russia in its current complexion. How do you expect to find common cause with a nation which you yourself describe as a tsarist state desiring westward expansion? Your own recent experience in your presidential election might suggest that Russia is not the obvious candidate ally. (D) You don’t explain how unequal monetary support of NATO gives NATO members “an unfair advantage over the US in other areas” – which areas and how; or, how Russia’s westward expansion of influence or might could in any way not be harmful to American interests. (E) The EU is certainly an economic rival of the US, as are China, Japan, Canada, Australia, etc., in the international market place, but that doesn’t make the EU a threat to American national security. So, on the basis of international economic rivalry you leave NATO. Do you also leave the Five Eyes? NORAD? Alliance with the UK? Withdraw support/protection of Japan and South Korea? You strove to be a superpower – you even had a moment as a ‘hyperpower’ – so don’t be petulant – accept the responsibilities that go with the position.

American influence is premised on prestige – economic, military, and cultural – and its projection into the world, which requires presence, virtual and physical. Metaphorical and literal withdrawal to your own shores will not accomplish that, but it will send the wrong signals to the wrong parties.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Pangolin
As to your comment that the US should return to the foreign policy of the Founding Fathers, it was a lot easier to avoid “entangling” alliances in 1796 than it is in 2017. A lot has happened in 221 years, and just as the Constitution is a living tree, so too should be a foreign policy. Or, had you not noticed that it is a very different world? No more flintlocks.

Foreign policy is almost always in support of economics isn't it? Which is why America forced the Japanese to open their country to trade in 1853. Did America annex a goodly chunk of Mexico in 1848, Hawaii in 1898, Puerto Rico, Guam and Philippines shortly after, in aid of economics? Maybe the founding fathers had not anticipated being open for business would necessitate new markets and sources of raw materials. Certainly we can see the support of various dictators in Latin America, control of various countries' economies as economically motivated, even if pretended that it was all about communism. Support of various middle eastern countries' despotic governments and invasions re oil is obviously economic.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I'm wondering what's going to happen if we do in fact know that Trump is compromised and blackmailable, and ... well, read it.

If "there was a continuing exchange of information during the campaign between Trump surrogates and intermediaries for the Russian government," and if "Russian operatives claim to have compromising personal and financial information about Mr. Trump" and chose not to leak anything about the Republicans because they can use him ....

Where do we go from here?

What is verifiable? I've read the Buzzfeed publication and tbh I would not be in the least surprised if there is real substance behind the allegations. The most damning allegation is about ongoing Trump/Kremlin collusion over 'getting Hillary'. The 'golden rain' stuff is a sideshow compared with that.

I wonder if John McCain has already got the bit between his teeth?
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
NP, I'd agree with you to a large extent, but not entirely, or at least, I would take a position that is not quite so reductive. I think that you're right that the Founding Fathers couldn't have anticipated the global economic interconnectedness of today, let alone the shape of their own nations two centuries thence.

The centrality of economics is not so clear all the time. American intervention in Central and South America, and the Caribbean, is less clear cut. While there were extensive American economic interests in Central America, the invasion of Grenada, a place of minimal economic importance to the US, in 1983, was essentially ideologically motivated. A leftist government overthrown by a more radical coup, and the presence of Cubans, was enough to encourage an American invasion. I think that that was the triumph of ideology over economic interest.

(Starts singing, "Look away across the bay, Yankee gunboat come this way , Uncle Sam gonna save the day, Come tomorrow we all gonna pay...")

It gets even murkier when one tries to disentangle certain conflicts that have overt ideological characteristics. Yes, the German expansion into eastern Europe starting from the Anschluss was nationalist, racist expansion, but it was in service of securing Lebensraum for the blond peoples. So, racist and ideological, or economic? "We need the land, so let's enslave or exterminate those obviously inferior people," or, "They're obviously inferior, so let's enslave or exterminate them, and, hey, they've got some really fertile land." (The Nazi view of the future Ost was distinctly pastoral.) A complicated example, but I think that you get the idea.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
I probably read too many spy novels, but it seems to me that a Moscow hotel room is the worst possible place for a powerful or rich person to do something incriminating or embarrassing. You know the Kremlin has the room bugged and on camera, right? I don't know how anyone who has ever read a book could make that mistake. Which means that it is totally within the realm of possibility that Trump did.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
But would it matter to Trump if it was made public? Probably not much.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Og--

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I probably read too many spy novels, but it seems to me that a Moscow hotel room is the worst possible place for a powerful or rich person to do something incriminating or embarrassing. You know the Kremlin has the room bugged and on camera, right? I don't know how anyone who has ever read a book could make that mistake. Which means that it is totally within the realm of possibility that Trump did.

Not just in books. Armand Hammer, founder of the Arm & Hammer company, told a story on a TV talk show, years ago. He and his wife were in the Soviet Union (maybe Moscow?). She mentioned, in the privacy of their hotel room, that she wished she had some amenity or other. Next day, it was offered to her. Armand quipped, with a twinkle, "Now, I wonder how they knew that...".
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Hmm, Trump blackmailed by Russian agents over golden-showers in a Moscow hotel room? Seems a little "too good to be true", if you know what I mean.

According to what I read on Slate, this was from a dossier written up by a "former British intelligence agent", now freelancing, at the behest of Trump's rivals in the GOP primary. But I wonder if it might just have been a case of "Here's a wad of cash, limey, now dig up whatever rumours you can find about the guy; source doesn't matter, as long as you're not making it up out of thin air." Sort of the way tabloid newspapers get their stories.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Hmm, Trump blackmailed by Russian agents over golden-showers in a Moscow hotel room? Seems a little "too good to be true", if you know what I mean.

Hookers performing sex acts would be black-mailable for most of us, but not, I suspect, for the Trumpster who seems to revel in his own outrageous behavior-- much like the 10 year boy who is so entertained by his own potty mouth he doesn't notice everyone else is just bored.

No, if there were any truth to the rumors, Trump would even now be tweeting "No one has golden showers like Trump's golden showers! They're huuuuuuge! Only the best golden showers. The media is out to get me because they're jealous-- they can't get gigantic golden showers like me, all they get are pale yellow dribbles. Sad."
 
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:


I didn’t conjure some W.G. Wells cartoon of robots in the field.

Great opening batsman, but no draughtsman - perhaps you're thinking of HG Grace
[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
What I think is going on is an attempt to rein in Trump. The Trump public scorn about the joint report, the continuing Russian denials, taken together do suggest some Trump/Kremlin co-ordination and that will spook the US spooks. Moves to impeach may I suppose be some kind of endgame, preceded by some kind of House investigation. But I think the noise is a threat to go down that road if the President-elect continues to give signs of being too cosy with the Kremlin.

Think I said it earlier. What may be in play is the chess principle enunciated by Lasker that the threat is more powerful than the execution. But if Trump remains obstinate, then I think there are folks in the media and the political establishments who would be quite happy to take him down.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
There are quite a few clips on the BBC's on-line news this morning, showing various moments snapped during the Obama presidency (I love the one of the feisty little 106 year-old lady meeting Mr. and Mrs. O).

What a nice guy he seems to be, despite (no doubt) making many mistakes, contrasted with the infantile would-be tyrant (some of) you Murricans have loosed upon the world.

It will be interesting, to say the least, to see how far Trump goes before falling flat on his face/being impeached/starting World War III etc.

IJ
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Barnabas wrote:

quote:
What I think is going on is an attempt to rein in Trump. The Trump public scorn about the joint report, the continuing Russian denials, taken together do suggest some Trump/Kremlin co-ordination
Well, it could just be that both Trump and the Kremlin have an interest in denying the allegations: Trump because he doesn't want his loyalties questioned, the Russians because no country wants espionage allegations against itself to be widely believed. Rather than it being a case of collusion.

At the moment, I'm personally holding to my earlier theory that the "Moscow Hotel" dossier was mostly just a bunch of rumours gathered together by the operative hired by Trump's rivals, of no exceptional veracity. And that the FBI just mentioned it in their briefings because they thought Trump should know what was being said about him, not neccessarily because they thought it was credible.

Full disclosure: I don't want Trump to be impeached, because I think Pence would be worse.

[ 11. January 2017, 11:23: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 
I don't think Pence would be worse. You might not like his policies, but I would trust him not to actively undermine the system. Similarly I think Cruz would have been a pretty bad president, but (for the same reason) not as bad as Trump.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Somebody should tell Trump that producing tons of tweets, saying that rumours about Russian influence are RUBBISH, actually makes you look pathetic.

http://tinyurl.com/h97cfrg
 
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 
And with respect to the Kremlin - I think their preferred option is that everyone should know they were responsible, but that no-one should be able to do anything about it. Look at poor old Alexander Litvinenko for an earlier example of this dynamic.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I wonder if Trump is going to produce streams of tweets for the next 4 years, Streep is over-rated, I am not a Russian dude for hire, and by the way, pussy is finger lickin' good.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I don't think Pence would be worse. You might not like his policies, but I would trust him not to actively undermine the system. Similarly I think Cruz would have been a pretty bad president, but (for the same reason) not as bad as Trump.

Well, I don't know. Nixon actively undermined the system more than Reagan did(what with Watergate and all), but I think his policies(minus Vietnam), from a progressive persspective, were considerably better(EPA, outreach to China, cuts to defense spending etc). In some hypothetical contest between the two, I would prefer Nixon to win.

For the most part, I think Trump is likely to do pretty much whatever the GOP establishment dicates that he do. But I think there's also a sliver of a hope that he might act indpendently on a few issues. I wouldn't have any such hope for a President Pence.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I plan to attend the March on Washington, Saturday next. To that end I am crafting a number of signs, which I and friends will carry. Any extra I will give away to the signless. I've been discussing the process on Facebook, and will be saving photos of the final product in my Pinterest page; there may also be a blog post or two.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder if Trump is going to produce streams of tweets for the next 4 years

I think that's the basic idea, yeah.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
There are quite a few clips on the BBC's on-line news this morning, showing various moments snapped during the Obama presidency (I love the one of the feisty little 106 year-old lady meeting Mr. and Mrs. O).

I hope they showed a clip of the moment in his farewell address last night where he simply said "my wife Michelle" and the place erupted. There was such intense love in his face at that moment (he even pulled out a hanky to wipe away a tear) that he should get a free pass for the next 5 anniversaries.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I don't think Pence would be worse. You might not like his policies, but I would trust him not to actively undermine the system. Similarly I think Cruz would have been a pretty bad president, but (for the same reason) not as bad as Trump.

I agree. Pence has some horrible, horrible beliefs and policies, but he does not appear to be corrupt or as laser-focused on personal self-advancement as Trump is. And his interactions with Kaine in the vice-presidential debate and even his response to the Hamilton dressing-down suggest he is at least capable of listening politely to the opposition. A Pence presidency would be aggravating, worrisome, and require constant vigilance to preserve the rights (especially for LGBTQ community) we've gained. But I we would be able to sleep at night, and that's something.

I think impeachment is our best/only hope right now. That, and the midterm elections.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I plan to attend the March on Washington, Saturday next. To that end I am crafting a number of signs, which I and friends will carry. Any extra I will give away to the signless. I've been discussing the process on Facebook, and will be saving photos of the final product in my Pinterest page; there may also be a blog post or two.

Awesome! Don't forget as well your
pussy cap
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder if Trump is going to produce streams of tweets for the next 4 years

I think that's the basic idea, yeah.
I'm trying to remember if it was Trevor Noah or some other comedian that had a great clip suggesting the media report Trump's tweets the same way it reports the weather-- with a bland monotone announcer over a boring grey info-graphic reporting that there were scattered flurries of isolated tweets about comedians and media corruption, we predict a heavier tweet storm coming in around 3am about foreigners and Muslims clearing by morning before resumed tweet storms on women and Rosie O'Donnell...
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Alas, I won't have time to knit one (a niece announced over Xmas that the Sorting Hat was wrong, and she is not a Gryffindor but a Slytherin, and I am knitting her the proper muffler, 14 feet long). And although the pattern looks cute, unless it's done in pure wool it won't be very cozy. (Word is that pink yarn is sold out of the stores anyway.) It's going to be damned cold, and warmth wins over -everything-. You cannot beat microfleece and thermals. If there is interest I could list the slogans I am putting on the signs.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
It's early (my time EST) to declare my best laugh of the day, but I can't imagine what can trump (pardon the pun) this (from the online edition of The Globe and Mail):

[Kremlin] Spokesman Dmitry Peskov dismissed news reports [re: recent uncorroborated allegations of Trump's Moscow shenanigans] as a “complete fabrication and utter nonsense.” He insisted that the Kremlin “does not engage in collecting compromising material.”

[Killing me]

Dear God, how I laughed!
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Alas, I won't have time to knit one (a niece announced over Xmas that the Sorting Hat was wrong, and she is not a Gryffindor but a Slytherin, and I am knitting her the proper muffler, 14 feet long). And although the pattern looks cute, unless it's done in pure wool it won't be very cozy. (Word is that pink yarn is sold out of the stores anyway.) It's going to be damned cold, and warmth wins over -everything-. You cannot beat microfleece and thermals. If there is interest I could list the slogans I am putting on the signs.

I wonder if they might be passing them out? They're talking about people knitting dozens of them so there must be some effort to distribute them beyond the knitters themselves. I wish I could knit, I'd make one for you-- although if I could find a nice pink microfleece cap I could embroider a nice "pussy fights back" emblem on it for ya.

Yes, please post the slogans!
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If there is interest I could list the slogans I am putting on the signs.

Yes! Please do!
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I was just thinking of changing the channel every time that gobshite is on, for the next 4 years! It's the tedium of narcissism.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
It's early (my time EST) to declare my best laugh of the day, but I can't imagine what can trump (pardon the pun) this (from the online edition of The Globe and Mail):

[Kremlin] Spokesman Dmitry Peskov dismissed news reports [re: recent uncorroborated allegations of Trump's Moscow shenanigans] as a “complete fabrication and utter nonsense.” He insisted that the Kremlin “does not engage in collecting compromising material.”

[Killing me]

Dear God, how I laughed!

Speaking of Russia, I was sent yesterday this: This link to Pussy Riot's song "Make America Great Again", and related article. The video is Not Safe For Work (NSFW), and you have to click on it within the article (don't want to traumatize the hosts!). Nothing Pussy Riot does is SFW. It's art, and some art is challenging.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
It's art, but not as we know it.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Cliffs Notes on Trump's press conference:

No, I don't have ties with Russia. It's fake news. Fuck the Intelligence, fuck the media.
No, I won't release my tax returns. Nobody cares about my tax returns, except reporters.
Maybe Russia hacked the DNC. But all countries hack us, so who cares. It's the DNC's fault anyway.
I hope I'll get along with Putin. We'll see.
I won. I'm the president. I'm tremendous. Fuck Hillary.
Obamacare is a disaster. Until I replace it with something else, 2017 will be a catastrophe.
My sons will run my businesses. Here's my lawyer who will put you to sleep for 30 minutes.
I'll build the wall. Mexico will pay, somehow. Border tax. MAGA.
CNN? Buzzfeed? BBC News? I won't talk to you. Fuck you, assholes.

[ 11. January 2017, 17:22: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Great headline on BBC TV: Russian stream of leaks. Who is writing this stuff?
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Pretty good summary. As press conferences go, and by normal standards, I think it was an embarrassment and a disaster. But I should think his supporters loved it.

The key unanswered question was about any contacts between the Trump organisation and Russia during the election campaign.

[ 11. January 2017, 17:51: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
One issue though, is that it's very entertaining. I wonder if Trump will gain popularity, because of this, even among opponents? It's like a cross between a variety show and a car crash.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One issue though, is that it's very entertaining. I wonder if Trump will gain popularity, because of this, even among opponents? It's like a cross between a variety show and a car crash.

I have to admit to laughing throughout at the utter ridiculousness of the whole thing.

I particularly liked the bit where he said that he tells his staff to be ultra-careful abroad as anything they say will end up on tv. And where he talked about the horrible things someone else had said about Hillary Clinton.

It's like he just can't hear what his mouth is saying and because some other version appears inside his head then that - and only that - is the truth.

I apologise to my American brethren for this, I know it isn't really funny.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
In UKipperland, we have a former entertainer on trial (again) accused of groping women.

In Trumperica, you have a current entertainer who boasts of groping women, but you've made him President.

[Confused]

IJ
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
There is an app you can get for Facebook, that swaps words. A friend of mine has set it up so that the T word is replaced in every occurrence by the word 'kitten'. This makes posts ever so much more tolerable. I am waiting for the one that can swap graphics, so that the tiny-fingered blond orange-skinned countenance can be replaced with a kitten's.

The signs I am making are:

Make Misogynists Afraid
This Pussy Bites (graphic of a snarling cat head)
No Surrender
The Future Is Nasty
My Pussy, My Rules
Democracy Looks Like This
Come And Take It (with a graphic of female reproductive organs)
And, if I don't run out of foam core board, I will do (in honor of the departing president): Yes We Still Can!

A tweet is making the rounds which runs something like: I feel like when Daddy has left home, and Mom's perverted new boyfriend has just pulled up in a Trans Am. Too long for signage, alas.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Pretty good summary. As press conferences go, and by normal standards, I think it was an embarrassment and a disaster. But I should think his supporters loved it.

I fear that in a world where "fact is fiction and TV reality", far too many people prefer being entertained to being concerned about the actual issues.

Watching the clip where he shuts down the CNN reporter one is inclined to think Trump can't possibly last very long in the job, but I have this terrible feeling that this could be the new normal - and may well set "standards" other politicians will be keen to follow.

How this plays out when reality actually hits I don't know.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:


Watching the clip where he shuts down the CNN reporter one is inclined to think Trump can't possibly last very long in the job, but I have this terrible feeling that this could be the new normal - and may well set "standards" other politicians will be keen to follow.


Of course I know nothing - but it strikes me that there must now be enough he has said in public to use to impeach him.

If there isn't, it is tough to know what else he'd have to say to get impeached.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Only the GOP can ditch him. They hold both houses of Congress. So as long as the stand by their man, we'll all suffer for it. And they seem to be utterly without shame.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Not sure how the system works in the USA, but surely Mango Mussolini is not (yet) above the law? If he commits, or has committed, a crime (or is so alleged), cannot he be arrested, charged, and tried?

IJ
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

A tweet is making the rounds which runs something like: I feel like when Daddy has left home, and Mom's perverted new boyfriend has just pulled up in a Trans Am. Too long for signage, alas.

Trans Am? More like a scuzzy van with blacked out windows
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
Or this.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Only the GOP can ditch him. They hold both houses of Congress. So as long as the stand by their man, we'll all suffer for it. And they seem to be utterly without shame.

Try this theory for size:

The whole Trump presidency, and surrounding clouds of suspicion, salacious stories, claims and counter-claims, is a distraction from actual, boring but ultimately impactful political decisions that will be pushed through by the government.

What chance do the intricacies of policy stand when competing for airtime with golden showers?

Terrifyingly, there may be method in this madness.

[ 11. January 2017, 21:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's like a cross between a variety show and a car crash.

[Killing me] I wish I'd said that. Absolutely spot on summary - and not just the press conference.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Not sure how the system works in the USA, but surely Mango Mussolini is not (yet) above the law? If he commits, or has committed, a crime (or is so alleged), cannot he be arrested, charged, and tried?

IJ

Short answer: Yes. Acts prior to being sworn in as President are fair game, though difficult (viz. the Trump University charges). Acts after being sworn are different. Discussed at length on a previous thread. I might try to find it.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
But, I repeat: it will take Republicans to do it The Mango Mussolini will put his own people in place; do you seriously imagine that the loathsome Jeff Sessions will, as Attorney General, prosecute him? There has to be a Congress-wide disgust and horror and drawing back. It'll have to be beyond egregious (not that this is at all impossible given the man they are dealing with). Some horror beyond our imagination must occur before they will abandon him in droves.
This discusses what must occur. I think it will come, but not now, not soon. It will be horrifying beyond belief, because that's what it'll take. To get the diehards to admit that they made a horrific error will call for something stupendous.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
something stupendous and undeniable. Trump has the capacity to deny that he did something when he did it at a copiously filmed campaign rally and the whole world has the vision.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
watched TV on US Politics for a bit...

IMHO, Trump is likely to serve his full term as President. The aim of the Good should be to cut the Republican majority in Congress in two years, and elect someone else in four.

Also, Buzzfeed does suck, and is not a credible news source. They are click bait writers, nothing more. No matter how many times Trump says this, it will remain true.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I wonder why, in the run up to the election, and presently, there isn't a focus in this man's immaturity and juvenality. Why didn't and doesn't anyone ever say "grow up Donald" or "stop lying"? The group of others needs to specifically take interpersonal control. But no one does. Who will rid you of this troublesome obsequiousness and give him none of the reinforcement he constantly gets?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I wonder why, in the run up to the election, and presently, there isn't a focus in this man's immaturity and juvenality. Why didn't and doesn't anyone ever say "grow up Donald" or "stop lying"? The group of others needs to specifically take interpersonal control. But no one does.

No one? it was said near incessantly-- to the extent it overwhelmed any real discussion of real issues. Why it wasn't compelling reason not to vote for him to more voters in certain key states, that's another question. But it most certainly was not for lack of anyone drawing attention to it.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I'm thinking reporters, Hillary Clinton, opponents in the election of the republican candidate, others who were speaking to the freak directly, on TV. That kind of thing. Unless - it is certainly possible - an interviewer or reporter said "stop lying" etc directly to him.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Didn't that dude who was younger than the other candidates for the Republican nomination challenge him directly? And Ted Cruz did too, I'm sure. I'm also pretty sure Hillary Clinton did so on innumerable occasions, including during the debates. I must have read 50 columns at least which did this too. The man was justly and publicly reviled.

But enough Americans still voted for him to get a majority in the College. I think that means many of them believed him instead of everyone else, and others liked that he did what he denied doing, or found it irrelevant, or hated Hillary more than they were repulsed by Trump.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is what is so worrying. A significant fraction of the population doesn't care that the Mango Mussolini is a proven liar, notably unstable, a self-proclaimed molester of women, and so on. They knew, and they voted for him anyway.
I'm not sure that this link will work, but give it a try. It ought to take you to yesterday's Bloom County cartoon on Facebook. This is why there's going to be a Women's March. Because somebody has to say that this is not OK, not an example we should follow.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Trump's criticism of Buzzfeed had some basis. Lumping CNN and Buzzfeed together was inaccurate and unfair. But either he didn't know, or didn't care, that the CNN reports were about the contents of the Trump briefing, not the details of the dirty dossier.

In fact CNN reporting was not a lot different from other mainstream news outlets.

[ 12. January 2017, 01:48: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Full text of Obama's awesome farewell speech (HuffPost). If you get a chance to watch or listen to it, it's even better. Great combo of thank-yous; reviewing the past 8 years; reminding Americans of our roots (good and bad); doing community organizing to get Americans out and community organizing [Smile] ; warning of threats to democracy (without pointing to Trump *at all*!), but emphasizing that we can handle them; and "yes, we can; yes, we did; yes we can".

That's my prez. [Cool]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
np--

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I'm thinking reporters, Hillary Clinton, opponents in the election of the republican candidate, others who were speaking to the freak directly, on TV. That kind of thing. Unless - it is certainly possible - an interviewer or reporter said "stop lying" etc directly to him.

What cliffdweller said. The people you mentioned confronted him with "that's not true", "the facts don't support that", etc. Over and over and over.

I think the US election thread, from before the election, is archived somewhere. Lots of mentions there, IIRC. And you can check out news articles, recordings of the debates, etc.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Also, Buzzfeed does suck, and is not a credible news source. They are click bait writers, nothing more. No matter how many times Trump says this, it will remain true.


The more I think about the allegations from that dossier, the less it all adds up.

Is it supposed to be just a coincidence that, having already put himself in hock to Russian banks, Trump further compromised his dealings with that country by paying prostitutes to urinate on Obama's bed in a bugged hotel room? I suppose it's possible that we have two separate "streams" of compromise going, in regards to the same country, but, like I say, it seems like a bit of a coincidence.

Plus, the whole scenario just sounds like something out of a Grade B sex-farce, a reject from Blake Edwards' script pile. My guess is that some enterprising literary craftsman, aware of the rumours about Trump's relations with Russia, made up the story in the hopes of selling it to a tabloid(or something similar), but it got into general circulation, eventually picked up by the British intelligence flack the Republicans hired to dig up dirt on Trump.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Yes, I'm increasingly tending to think this is a massive (and deliberate) distraction.

From what I can make of this article, the conflict-of-interest problem is far clearer to argue in constitutional terms and equally if not more serious in ethics terms (when it comes to being qualified to run a country, not in terms of personal morals) as a romp with call-girls.

So to handle this bomb, Trump handed off to a lawyer for half an hour who apparently put everyone pretty much to sleep ("drones on", I recall the BBC journalist live-updating) while explaining a scheme described by experts in their field as "a totally fraudulent runaround" that "does not comply with the law".

On the whole, the media and the public will be more enthralled by Trump's antics, as another BBC article admits:
quote:
Part of the reason Mr Trump makes for such compelling viewing, is that when he goes off-script, there's no telling where he'll end up
I'm increasingly of the opinion that this is deliberate. Trump entertains the gallery and his underlings pull off the heist while everyone is distracted.

It's like Al Capone being imprisoned for tax evasion. People will fantasise about bringing him down for some outrageous action, but if he is ever brought down, I'm betting it will be for some un-sexy, hard-to-understand, ponderous, boring bureaucratic charge that he will ridicule as petty and mean in comparison to all the good he's done, and his larger-than-life persona.

[ 12. January 2017, 05:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
I just can’t get over the irony of Donald Trump whingeing about “fake news”. Dish it, sauce gander goose, can’t take it etc.

(Not that I think fake news is a good thing. But Cheeto Benito unleashed the concept on the world and I can’t feel all that sorry for him if it bites him in the behind.)
 
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
In UKipperland, we have a former entertainer on trial (again) accused of groping women.

A UKipper would, of course, have also pointed out that he's an immigrant!
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Plus, the whole scenario just sounds like something out of a Grade B sex-farce, a reject from Blake Edwards' script pile. My guess is that some enterprising literary craftsman, aware of the rumours about Trump's relations with Russia, made up the story in the hopes of selling it to a tabloid(or something similar), but it got into general circulation, eventually picked up by the British intelligence flack the Republicans hired to dig up dirt on Trump.
There are, broadly, three sorts of human intelligence.

1/ Disinformation - someone is giving you information which is incorrect, leavened with enough good stuff to make it plausible.

2/ Bullshit - someone is making stuff up in the hope of pleasing you or getting money or because they like the attention or whatever.

3/ The good stuff - actual information that you can use against your enemies.

One theory, to which I loosely incline, is that the report has been compiled by someone who knew enough about intelligence to pick up a selection of interesting stories but not enough to winnow out 2/ from 3. I suspect that it is the case that Trump is, at best, a useful idiot and, at worst, a Russian asset. But I doubt that he would be daft enough to have sex with someone not his wife in a Russian hotel room.

Of course, we haven't considered item 1. The Russians leak some patently untrue stuff, which then gets disproved by patient detective work by the MSM and anyone then pointing to Trump's links to Putin gets branded a conspiracy theorist.

Incidentally, the period between a President's election and inauguration is supposed to be his honeymoon period. Trump's ratings are currently and appositely, down the toilet at present. It will be interesting to see how the actual work of government effects his ratings.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Eutychus wrote:

quote:
It's like Al Capone being imprisoned for tax evasion. People will fantasise about bringing him down for some outrageous action, but if he is ever brought down, I'm betting it will be for some un-sexy, hard-to-understand, ponderous, boring bureaucratic charge that he will ridicule as petty and mean in comparison to all the good he's done, and his larger-than-life persona.

I agree. And if he is brought down by a scandal, I think it might be centred around his efforts at jawboning and/or pressuring private corporations to create or keep jobs in the USA.

We've already seen him, while still a private citizen, threatening car companies and allying with AliBaba over jobs. I'm pretty sure he's overstepping his bounds here, and if it keeps up during his presidency, he might end up in a situation where he's cutting corners or greasing palms in order to get companies to do what he wants. Could blow up in his face if the wrong people take exception to it.

Just my prediction.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
We'll see. Personally, I think Trump will do an excellent job of discrediting himself (a mission on which he already has a head start) and doesn't need any "help" from dirty or dodgy dossiers.

No need to aim low. He's already provided plenty of information to justify aiming high.
 
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 
I dunno. You'd think that Rodrigo Duterte, for example, was doing an excellent job of discrediting himself, but he still seems to be pretty popular. Hmmm....
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
He knows how to play to his own gallery and he couldn't care less about the others.

Bugger the facts (e.g. CNN, emoluments, conflicts of interest etc) he just goes for the jugular anyway.

His approval ratings suggest strongly that those who are loyal to him will be hard to budge, and the rest will just have to put up with him until he implodes.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
At the news conference when Donald said "don't be rude", and called the CNN reporter "fake news", why on earth didn't someone say, "Donald, you're being rude!". Well probably the reason is that is not the way it is done and how such presidential farces run. Some how, though, doesn't it require someone to seize the context and change how things run?
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
At the news conference when Donald said "don't be rude", and called the CNN reporter "fake news", why on earth didn't someone say, "Donald, you're being rude!".

Trust me, he is absolutely brilliant at this game. It would take a great deal of skill to come out a winner from that kind of confrontation.

And even if a journalist did win, all they would have done is shifted the focus of attention from the substantive issues to Trump's relationship with the media.

The media is already massively self-absorbed with this question to the detriment of treatment of substantive issues in general.

I repeat: the real damage is going to be done behind the scenes, away from these distractions.

And the best response is not whiling away hours dreaming up new insults for Trump or fantasising about getting the better of him in a public controntation, but steady investigative work to build a wholly watertight and damning case on something completely boring but ultimately effective.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
When T starts pulling the levers of power there is every chance his popularity could increase. History is littered with examples of leader-adoration that is totally blind to both small and large defects alike.

Not wanting to dash the hopes of anyone who thinks this latest squall might bring down trump's house of cards, but honestly, when you see someone who has thrived on negative attention from day one it hardly seems likely that this, whatever it is, will do anything other than shore it up.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I agree. With Tiny Fingers it has always been that what you see is what is there. There is no secret agenda, no deeper reality, no self-knowledge. It's not a veneer of vulgarity. It's appalling all the way down to the hot molten core of ego.

The weak point, IMO, is the money. Follow the money, Deep Throat told us. The Mango Mussolini cannot release those tax returns, because they'll reveal who's holding him by the goolies. But there are other ways of determining financial truths, long, tedious tiresome researches. He'll fall on the financials.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
At the news conference when Donald said "don't be rude", and called the CNN reporter "fake news", why on earth didn't someone say, "Donald, you're being rude!".

Trust me, he is absolutely brilliant at this game. It would take a great deal of skill to come out a winner from that kind of confrontation.
I don't know about that. Indeed the conversation in a news conference is scripted and the roles and set out. I'm remembering advice from people like Paul Watzlawick who even 40 years ago discussed how to change discourse, and not continue with crazy interaction patterns. I'm not sure people study these things like they formerly did, and are as adept or interested at analysing in the moment, the communication patterns required to change the discourse. Consider also Saul Alinsky's "rules". The communication this Trumpy Wumpy Teletubby controls has to be derailed, but probably not by arguing and shouting down. There's an interpersonal strategy here somewhere; I'm thinking about complementarity versus conflict in communication styles.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
It occurs to me that the claims about Russia have deflected attention from the rather more substantiated problems with Trump's business interests. That was after all the original point of the press conference.
Do we think Trump is going to keep separate in his mind what he thinks is the right political decision for the US or the world, and what he thinks is the right financial decision for himself?
Trump says he can. Are you saying we can't take Trump's word for it?
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
I'm expecting the next four years to somewhat resemble what we are discovering has been going on in South Korea, where a few favored corporations and the government have apparently been acting as if they exist for each others' mutual benefit. Some might argue that this has already been going on for a while now (heaven forbid that the government come up with a health care solution that won't preserve the place of a handful of large health insurance companies), but I suspect it will get a bit more brazen.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Been listening to some of the hearings. Gen. Mattis was very good. So was Pompeo. What was striking was how much their commitments contradicted not just Trump campaign rhetoric but some of his key post-election noises. Very interesting.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
It has never been clear how Tiny Fingers's maunderings tracked with real life. I suppose we must applaud, when his Cabinet nominees hew to reality rather than wandering off into the Land of Dream.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Also, Buzzfeed does suck, and is not a credible news source. They are click bait writers, nothing more. No matter how many times Trump says this, it will remain true.


The more I think about the allegations from that dossier, the less it all adds up.

Is it supposed to be just a coincidence that, having already put himself in hock to Russian banks, Trump further compromised his dealings with that country by paying prostitutes to urinate on Obama's bed in a bugged hotel room? I suppose it's possible that we have two separate "streams" of compromise going, in regards to the same country, but, like I say, it seems like a bit of a coincidence.

Plus, the whole scenario just sounds like something out of a Grade B sex-farce, a reject from Blake Edwards' script pile. My guess is that some enterprising literary craftsman, aware of the rumours about Trump's relations with Russia, made up the story in the hopes of selling it to a tabloid(or something similar), but it got into general circulation, eventually picked up by the British intelligence flack the Republicans hired to dig up dirt on Trump.

If they had caught Pence is a sexcapade-- yes, sure. Because he'd likely be ashamed/embarrassed by such a scandal. But Trump is likely to ask for you to send him the photos of him romping with the hookers so he can get them blown up for his Xmas cards. So no, I agree, not likely to have happened, or if it did, unlikely to have been the subject of blackmail.

The sexcapades are just a cover up for the real financial misdoings, the real and quite serious conflict of interest between Trump's financial self-interest and that of his associates, particularly Rex T and the very significant cash to be acquired by them if sanctions against Russia are lifted. Indeed, I'm wondering if we'll have Trump showing much interest in any of the rest of it-- Obamacare, immigration, LGBTQ rights, whatever-- once he gets that vital bit of business squared away. Oh, sure, he'll support whatever he needs to to get the Republican Congress to vote for lifting sanctions, but I doubt he cares much about any of it or will spend any amount of time drafting legislation or advocating for it.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The sexcapades are just a cover up for the real financial misdoings, the real and quite serious conflict of interest between Trump's financial self-interest and that of his associates,

The word "cover up" suggests to me that you think this was an inside job. Are you suggesting that the GOP or Trump is intentionally leaking juicy stories to distract from other more serious but less entertaining acts?

Interesting idea if true. Maybe Trump is a useful idiot who can be counted on to stir up a media frenzy about minor details while the people pulling the strings get away with murder.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
That said, Occam tells me that the intelligence community is pissed at Trump for calling them idiots and retaliated by leaking the story.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
That said, Occam tells me that the intelligence community is pissed at Trump for calling them idiots and retaliated by leaking the story.

I don't think the two theories are mutually exclusive.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Your comment on not underestimating anything, because you recognise that Russian and the US have their national interests, shows that you are. A large motivating factor in current Russian thought is not merely a pursuit of rational national interest, an extension of ‘soft influence’ over the 'near abroad', but mounting a serious challenge to NATO, either through direct intervention, as in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, or economically, through gas and oil exports, as they have also done in past.

I think General Mattis said as much in his confirmation hearing today. Whatever Trump personally believes, his pick for Secretary of Defense is adhering to what I would consider the view of the traditional right about Russia (and the left now I guess based on what I'm reading in this thread???). I don't agree Russia is the top threat, but I do think General Mattis is a great pick for the position.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
That said, Occam tells me that the intelligence community is pissed at Trump for calling them idiots and retaliated by leaking the story.

I don't think the two theories are mutually exclusive.
You're going to have to explain.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Alt Wally

General Mattis looked like good news to me on a whole load of defence issues. I don't think it matters whether your politics lean to the left or the right. The covert interference by Russia, under 'very senior direction', in the US Presidential election, demands a very strong response from the US. Mattis's summary seemed spot on to me. The range of issues over which there can be bilateral co-operation is decreasing, the range of issues requiring confrontation is increasing. Trump's responses so far have been wholly inappropriate when faced with the reality of Putin's intentions and behaviour.

Are we looking at a return to the Cold War? It depends whether Putin can be persuaded that it is in his interests to back off.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It occurs to me that the claims about Russia have deflected attention from the rather more substantiated problems with Trump's business interests. That was after all the original point of the press conference.
Do we think Trump is going to keep separate in his mind what he thinks is the right political decision for the US or the world, and what he thinks is the right financial decision for himself?
Trump says he can. Are you saying we can't take Trump's word for it?

Of course we can. We're supposed to believe anyone who agrees with Trump, such as Putin about Russia not hacking the DNC. And since Trump often agrees with himself, at least for short periods of time, of course we're supposed to believe him. And once he stops agreeing with himself, we should take that as a sign that it doesn't matter any longer, like Obama's citizenship. Either that or we should take it as a sign that it's time to try listening to his heart instead of his words.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A quick (and free click) summary of the many ways that the Pussy Grabber can enrich himself.. And these are just the totally legal ways. He doesn't even have to accept bribes from Arabs or Russians.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
That said, Occam tells me that the intelligence community is pissed at Trump for calling them idiots and retaliated by leaking the story.

I don't think the two theories are mutually exclusive.
You're going to have to explain.
It's entirely possible that the intelligence community is doing exactly as you suggest-- leaking what they think will be embarrassing info re Trump (whether or not the Man With No Shame actually finds it embarrassing, who knows?). It's also possible that at the same time, the Trump admin. is delighted to have the salacious distraction from the much, much more serious questions that were raised by Congress today about the very serious conflicts of interest both of Trump and of Tillerson. After all, it seemed to work out very very well for him in the election.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Trying to think of something you could blackmail Trump about: I'm thinking vision of him murdering someone with a big knife instead of a gun.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Oh, I'm sure he has loads of skeletons in his cupboard.

On the smokescreen issue, I reckon Trump is good at wrongfooting people; any of us might be taken aback by the ugliness of his behaviour. He really isn't normal. In some ways he reminds me of the late Robert Maxwell.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
I think peole here are somewhat hyperbolizing Trump's capacity for shamelessness. Remember, when the "Grab 'em by the *****" interview was revealed, he admitted to uttering the words in question, but denied that he had ever done the activities described, instead claiming it was just meaningless macho bragging.

re: the Moscow hotel dossier, I think even Trump would know that auric sprinkles in a possibly bugged hotel room is bad for his image, and would deny it, even if he had done it.

This post is in response to the argument that Trump couldn't have done those things, because if he had, he'd be bragging about it. I think it IS the case that he didn't do those things, but not because of his lack of bragging. Rather, it's just that the stories sound rather contrived; paint-by-numbers tabloid fodder, to mix a couple of metaphors there.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I think it's quite difficult to be hyperbolic about Trump, particularly his tweets. Hillary is 'as guilty as Hell' apparently. Whereas he is just, demonstrably, a really nasty piece of work. A complete asshole.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
Cliffdweller- got it. I think I was reading more into "cover-up" than you intended.

I doubt that all of the stories in the dossier will ever be confirmed, but apparently the FBI is taking the source seriously because he has provided solid intel in the past- in fact, it was information that he had gathered and shared with the FBI that lead to the Justice Department's investigation of FIFA and the eventual fall of "comically corrupt" Sep Blatter.
 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Forgive me if this has already been asked - there's rather a lot of this thread to check, and I haven't read it all. However, has there ever before been a President where impeachment has been discussed even before his Inauguration?
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
For those who are trying to keep track of the various Trump administration-in-waiting scandals, here are two more.

Michael Flynn and the Russian phone calls:

quote:
Retired Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, Trump’s choice for national security adviser, cultivates close Russian contacts. He has appeared on Russia Today and received a speaking fee from the cable network, which was described in last week’s unclassified intelligence briefing on Russian hacking as “the Kremlin’s principal international propaganda outlet.”

According to a senior U.S. government official, Flynn phoned Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak several times on Dec. 29, the day the Obama administration announced the expulsion of 35 Russian officials as well as other measures in retaliation for the hacking. What did Flynn say, and did it undercut the U.S. sanctions? The Logan Act (though never enforced) bars U.S. citizens from correspondence intending to influence a foreign government about “disputes” with the United States. Was its spirit violated? The Trump campaign didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

For those who are unclear on this, the U.S. has a State Department that's supposed to handle contacts with foreign governments relating to American policy. Flynn is still a private citizen with no official standing.

Then there's the case of the (possibly) illegal campaign contributions [PDF]. The FEC has sent the treasurer of Trump's campaign a 256 page letter detailing what it says are campaign contributions that, as filed, appear to violate campaign finance law. A response is required by Valentine's Day (the FEC is nothing if not romantic!) and "requests for extensions of time in which to respond will not be considered" (the FEC is nothing if not strictly punctual!). Some of these illegal contributions may actually be data entry or filing errors but we'll find out soon enough.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Forgive me if this has already been asked - there's rather a lot of this thread to check, and I haven't read it all. However, has there ever before been a President where impeachment has been discussed even before his Inauguration?

There were discussions of impeaching Hillary Clinton before the election!

quote:
Chairmen of two congressional committees said in media interviews this week they believe Clinton committed impeachable offenses in setting up and using a private email server for official State Department business.

And a third senior Republican, the chairman of a House Judiciary subcommittee, told The Washington Post he is personally convinced Clinton should be impeached for influence peddling involving her family foundation. He favors further congressional investigation into that matter.


 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
OK - had forgotten that. Has that happened before, or was it exceptional?

However, once a candidate has won, I thought the done thing was for the ground to settle and everyone to rally round. Is it a new thing for folk to be talking about impeaching a President-elect?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
There are always cries for "rallying around" in the name of "unity" and always those who will resist doing so. Despite so many elections, some going my way and some not, this is the first time I am among those who are resisting. This is not the time for "rallying around" under some false guise of "unity". This is a time for courage and for resistance.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Forgive me if this has already been asked - there's rather a lot of this thread to check, and I haven't read it all. However, has there ever before been a President where impeachment has been discussed even before his Inauguration?

While impeachment wasn't on the menu, many didn't "rally-round" Barack Obama once he had been elected. All kinds of things were mooted as devices to prevent him taking office.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
I heard one of the artists who is appearing at the Inauguration has been vilified, including savage online vilification. This is not on, America. Save it for his administration.

I do admit that I was hurt and disappointed by Meryl Streep's decision to play Thatcher. I said some nasty things about her to my wife.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
It would probably be justifiable in an eye for an eye manner to boycott etc. Given trump's mistreatment of a female reporter the point she received death threats, denigrating a disabled man by mimicking him, generally villifying entire ethnic and national groups. And sexual assault. etc. There is a difference between sickening and dangerous, and if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem, to revive things said a half-century ago.

As for Streep, you've got the wrong side of it. She provided an eloquent statement of only one of trump's sins, without even naming him. And did it well, with personal reflection and genuine feeling.

Probably next time trump rudely says "fake news", the response should be "fake election", much as we respond "and also with you" to a leader in a different context who says "the lord be with you".
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It would probably be justifiable in an eye for an eye manner to boycott etc.

No, eye for an eye would be telling slanderous lies over & over again, taking away life-sustaining medical care and then laughing and high-fiving one another over it, tossing his foreign-born wife out of the country.

No, boycotting is NOT "eye for an eye"-- it is simply an honorable and respectable form of protest. It is saying "I refuse to support or participate in this." That's an appropriate response.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Alright then. I have dispensation to follow my instincts. Which turn out to be better than than worse. Grateful am I.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Probably next time trump rudely says "fake news", the response should be "fake election".

Oh, I like that. I hope it catches on.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
If I were a US citizen, I would be following Rep. John Lewis. Twice.

I couldn't rally round Donald Trump. "It is the FIRST responsibility of every citizen to question authority."
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
It's just now hitting me that this is really going to happen.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Trump's tweets re John Lewis are further evidence of his complete lack of both wisdom and class.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I do admit that I was hurt and disappointed by Meryl Streep's decision to play Thatcher. I said some nasty things about her to my wife.

For some reason no one is ever "hurt and disappointed" about an actor's decision to play the lead in Shakespeare's Richard III, despite the fact that the character is a murderous tyrant.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Trump's tweets re John Lewis are further evidence of his complete lack of both wisdom and class.

As well as massive projection. He claims Lewis is "all talk and no action"? In the 60s Lewis was marching with MLK and nearly giving his life for the cause. Trump was floundering in school and getting charged with racial discrimination in housing.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I do admit that I was hurt and disappointed by Meryl Streep's decision to play Thatcher. I said some nasty things about her to my wife.

For some reason no one is ever "hurt and disappointed" about an actor's decision to play the lead in Shakespeare's Richard III, despite the fact that the character is a murderous tyrant.
This could be because Richard III has been dead for centuries, and Maggie Thatcher was destroying people's lives within living memory.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
trump advocates closer relations with Russia. Why is no one asking if this is because he is a double agent, blackmailed by Putin? It is hardly more startling that trumpy's birther Muslim claim re Obama.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
trump advocates closer relations with Russia. Why is no one asking if this is because he is a double agent, blackmailed by Putin?

No one? Pretty much everyone is asking this.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
cliffdweller

If the antics during the transition have demonstrated anything, it is that the PEOTUS is a total sleaze. I wonder how long it will take for the penny to drop for the 40% or so Trump 'loyalists'. They've been conned.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Not everyone believes that our late liege lord, Richard III, was a 'murderous tyrant':

http://www.richardiii.net/

Maybe one day, years hence (after the nuclear winter), there'll be a Donald Trump Society.

Assuming there's any record left of his term in office...

IJ
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
trump advocates closer relations with Russia. Why is no one asking if this is because he is a double agent, blackmailed by Putin? It is hardly more startling that trumpy's birther Muslim claim re Obama.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people are asking this.
 
Posted by nickel (# 8363) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Trying to think of something you could blackmail Trump about: I'm thinking vision of him murdering someone with a big knife instead of a gun.

His tax returns, apparently.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Probably next time trump rudely says "fake news", the response should be "fake election".

Oh, I like that. I hope it catches on.
I don't. Where's the evidence it was fake?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Probably wasn't fake.
Driven by racism, misogyny, xenophobia*... but not likely fake.


*No, not everyone, but a lot more than people will likely admit.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Well, external interference with malevolent intent is now established. It is no longer a matter just of suspicion. What has not been established is collusion between the Russians and the Trump campaign, but the ongoing denigration of Hillary Clinton was clearly a major objective of both the Trump campaign and the external interference.

John Lewis is not just shooting the breeze.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Probably next time trump rudely says "fake news", the response should be "fake election".

Oh, I like that. I hope it catches on.
I don't. Where's the evidence it was fake?
[Killing me] Ironic eh?
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Not everyone believes that our late liege lord, Richard III, was a 'murderous tyrant':

http://www.richardiii.net/

IJ

I thought that at first too, but then realized that Crœsos referred to Shakespeare's character, and not the historical king. Shakespeare had to make him out to be much worse than he probably was, since Henry VII's granddaughter was sitting on the throne and possibly in the audience.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Probably next time trump rudely says "fake news", the response should be "fake election".

Oh, I like that. I hope it catches on.
I don't. Where's the evidence it was fake?
Congress is investigating that very thing as we speak.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, external interference with malevolent intent is now established. It is no longer a matter just of suspicion. What has not been established is collusion between the Russians and the Trump campaign, but the ongoing denigration of Hillary Clinton was clearly a major objective of both the Trump campaign and the external interference.

Well exactly. Collusion matters.

Because, as I've just been pointing out recently in Hell, people try to influence elections all the time.

To be honest I find some of the hoo-ha slightly bemusing. There's no question that Trump being overly friendly with the Russians is of tremendous political concern, but exactly what constitutes illegal interference with an election?

It can't merely be trying to influence voters. People spend millions trying to influence voters, and US law does very little to curtail it. Does trying to influence voters suddenly become illegal if you're foreign? Interesting question, I haven't seen anyone referring to a law about that, and if so I've broken it every time I expressed my opinion on US politics during the election campaign.

Is it just a political standard where Americans are just fine with America trying to influence the world, but are uncomfortable with the world trying to influence America?

I don't doubt that some of this stuff could be politically toxic in the extreme, but in my book political toxicity doesn't equal not being "legitimate". To me, "legitimate" has to do with having won an election where the votes were fairly and correctly counted and people were not wrongly prevented from voting.

Given the law does nothing to prevent people voting for all sorts of crazy reasons, and apparently does nothing to sanction politicians themselves from influencing votes with a pile of lies and half-truths, it's not obvious to me that Russians lying to Americans to affect their vote is inherently worse than Americans lying to Americans to affect their vote.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Probably next time trump rudely says "fake news", the response should be "fake election".

Oh, I like that. I hope it catches on.
I don't. Where's the evidence it was fake?
[Killing me] Ironic eh?
It would only be ironic if I actually approved of Trump using the term "fake news". Two wrongs don't make a right.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
The new Trump administration has announced the six prayer leaders who will pray at the inauguration. They include a Cardinal, a rabbi, and four conservative ministers who supported him during the campaign. They seem to be of the "Prosperity Gospel" sort that think that wealth is a mark of God's approval.
Any comments or is this what should be expected?
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I do admit that I was hurt and disappointed by Meryl Streep's decision to play Thatcher. I said some nasty things about her to my wife.

For some reason no one is ever "hurt and disappointed" about an actor's decision to play the lead in Shakespeare's Richard III, despite the fact that the character is a murderous tyrant.
Shakespeare's Richard III was a fictional Character, but the terrible Thatcher was frighteningly real. My great fear was that the film about Thatcher was going to be a hagiography. I understand it wasn't. My wife, when it was on telly, called me in to watch the bit about Thatcher's descent into senility. That was good.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Shakespeare's Richard III was indeed a product of pro-Tudor propaganda, which perhaps just goes to show the power of 'spin'....

....and that we are all - Trump (especially) included - a miserable company of poor, perishing sinners.
[Waterworks]

IJ
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
What's the issue with Meryl Streep playing the character of Margaret Thatcher? Are we supposed to hate or be disappointed in actors playing people we don't like? Or - I never saw the film - was the script untruthfully and unrealistically favourable towards the Iron Lady? And we're supposed to assume that all actors should be able to discern these things and choose their projects more carefully?
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I wonder if the unease was caused by the thought that someone playing Margaret Thatcher might make it seem as though she (Thatcher) had undergone some sort of ghastly and unholy resurrection....

[Ultra confused]

....and that would never do.

IJ
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The new Trump administration has announced the six prayer leaders who will pray at the inauguration. They include a Cardinal, a rabbi, and four conservative ministers who supported him during the campaign. They seem to be of the "Prosperity Gospel" sort that think that wealth is a mark of God's approval.
Any comments or is this what should be expected?

Pretty much what I would have expected. I believe that Trump's parents were devotees of Norman Vincent Peale, and that he followed them in this, so not surprised to see the Prosperity Gospel represented.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
trump advocates closer relations with Russia. Why is no one asking if this is because he is a double agent, blackmailed by Putin? It is hardly more startling that trumpy's birther Muslim claim re Obama.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people are asking this.
Yes, you can check out, for example, any Trump/Russia article on the Slate website, along with the enusing readers' comments, to find hundreds of people speculating that Trump might be a Russian agent.

Though I suspect the subtext of Prophet's question was "Why aren't the people who believed the Obama birtherism stuff also nodding their assent to the Trump-Russia stuff?" If so, it's because they were predisposed to believe bad allegations about Democrats but disbelieve bad allegations about Republicans.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Actually I thought it was simple racism Stetson.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Actually I thought it was simple racism Stetson.

Well, I think in most cases, it's probably a combo. If Ben Carson had won the GOP nomination, I suspect a lot of the racist Republican voters inclined to believe Obama was a Kenyan terrorist would find some reason to reject similar allegations about Carson.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
What's the issue with Meryl Streep playing the character of Margaret Thatcher? Are we supposed to hate or be disappointed in actors playing people we don't like? Or - I never saw the film - was the script untruthfully and unrealistically favourable towards the Iron Lady? And we're supposed to assume that all actors should be able to discern these things and choose their projects more carefully?

From what little I saw of it, getting angry at Streep for playing Thatcher would be like getting mad at Hopkins for playing Nixon. Or Forest Whittaker for playing Idi Amin. The film was hardly a love song to Thatcher.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
What about Bruno Ganz in 'Downfall' playing Hitler? I wonder if he got flak for this? I know it has been ripped off many times for comic effect, e.g. there is a Brexit version of that scene where Hitler shouts at everyone, 'what, you are telling me, that you have not calculated the effects of leaving the single market, Donner und Blitzen', etc.

Come on, we're gagging for a Trump version.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Think trump's soon going to have his own version. Quite frankly that guy is scary when he's crossed. Arm outstretched with finger pointed while maintaining fixed stare ahead.

How about Ant. Hopkins doing Hannibal Lecter next to Streep doing Thatch for damaged cred?
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Here are der Failure's thoughts on Trump - probably NSFW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZn1Juf4ha8&nohtml5=False

[Killing me]

IJ
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It can't merely be trying to influence voters. People spend millions trying to influence voters, and US law does very little to curtail it. Does trying to influence voters suddenly become illegal if you're foreign?

I don't know what our current laws about Americans trying to influence elections.

But illegal for foreigners? Duh.

Would you want foreign countries, ones with a frienemy history, influencing Australian elections???

And, BTW, I think it's been very wrong (and often catastrophic) for the US to interfere with other countries.

quote:
Given the law does nothing to prevent people voting for all sorts of crazy reasons, and apparently does nothing to sanction politicians themselves from influencing votes with a pile of lies and half-truths, it's not obvious to me that Russians lying to Americans to affect their vote is inherently worse than Americans lying to Americans to affect their vote.
{boggle}
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
FWIW:

I feel that some non-American Shipmates have done strange mental and rhetorical gymnastics. in their posts.

Two examples:

--People who were strongly against T being elected, before it happened, are suddenly denying that lots of Americans criticized T, and stood up to him directly. Is this amnesia, because they don't want to believe that he was elected?

--And other non-American Shipmates are taking the view that "well, T was elected, so it's undemocratic to fight it, even if people did mess around with the election; and Trump is bad, but he can't possibly be THAT bad; and you should just focus on reining him in; and surely he'll go with what the Republican elite say, or they'll control him; and you should just 'stop worrying, and love the bomb'". (Bomb quote per Dr. Strangelove.)

What the frack??? [Paranoid]

Counter-points to consider:

--American Shipmates (and other Americans) who didn't and don't support Trump are angry and afraid of this obviously (IMHO) insane and criminal man taking office.

--This is not about a politician we disagree with being elected. He is insane and criminal.

--If we have pre-existing rules and laws that permit us to do something about it, it's not wrong for us to use those rules and laws to try to keep an insane and criminal man from taking office.

--If we have an insane and criminal man in office, we'd have to live with the consequences, ***every day***.

--It seems illogical to me that non-American Shipmates would go from telling us how Trump could ruin the world, to "aw, just go with the flow, you can rein him in, he's not that bad, really", and *almost* saying "don't worry your pretty little heads about it".

This is...disturbing.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Golden Key:
quote:
--If we have an insane and criminal man in office, we'd have to live with the consequences, ***every day***.
You and the rest of the world... I can't speak for anyone else in the UK, but I'm (still) worried. I see his latest ploy is to praise Brexit to the skies and promise Britain a 'great trade deal'. Yes, I DO want to look this gift horse in the mouth.

[Help] [brick wall] [Mad]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Apparently, Trump's normal approach to any option is simply whether it is legal or not. For example, if he has legal advice that divesting himself of assets may be a Presidential custom but is not actually required by law, then he feels free to depart from precedent and ignore the whole welter of advice re conflict of interest.

So, back on collusion, I am guessing that there may be provision under US law to pursue citizen (not President) Trump or his underlings under some provision of conspiracy law. That might be a hard route.

But so far as impeachment is concerned, I believe Congress can take a pretty broad view of reasons to impeach. Here's a quote from the Wiki article on impeachment.

quote:
The Constitution defines impeachment at the federal level and limits impeachment to "The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States" who may be impeached and removed only for "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors". Several commentators have suggested that Congress alone may decide for itself what constitutes a "high crime or misdemeanor", especially since Nixon v. United States stated that the Supreme Court did not have the authority to determine whether the Senate properly "tried" a defendant. In 1970, then-House Minority Leader Gerald R. Ford defined the criterion as he saw it: "An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history."
So I guess that even the issue of behaviour before election might also constitute grounds for impeachment of a sitting president, if Congress is satisfied that it is wrong.

What is clear is that while he is in office, he can only be removed by impeachment. But it looks as though the articles of impeachment can be whatever satisfies Congress of his unsuitability for continuing in office because of proven "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors". I'd say that proven collusive links with the Russians to suborn a Presidential election might very well constitute cause for impeachment. Even if that collusion does not constitute any particular crime under US law, Congress could take a view that such behaviour must be outlawed for any sitting President, or aspiring President, because it is against the sense of the Constitution that elections should be free and fair.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Jane--

Yes, I know it affects everyone else. And I'm sorry about the danger. [Angel]

However, some non-American Shipmates have gone from talking exclusively about the effect on the wider world, to basically telling us not to worry about it. (Others did apologize for the first part.)

And, however much T's actions would affect the rest of the world (shudder), we would have to deal with him more. A Republican Congress is unlikely to impeach him. They will not be able to control him. He may act on each and every one of the horrible, dangerous things he's said, or he may bluster but do nothing at all. Either way, we'd have a madman at the helm. And if he gets to stack the Supreme Court (where some of the moderates and liberals are very close to either retirement or death)...

Frankly, if we don't take care of this soon, AND I ABSOLUTELY AM NOT ENDORSING THE FOLLOWING IDEA, someone might decide to take more drastic measures. It might be assassination. There may be people, like some in the past, who decide they desperately need to get a message directly to the president, with nasty consequences for themselves.

So, if it is legally possible, T needs to be prevented from taking office. Pence seems to be a nasty piece of work, with some awful ideas--but he does seem basically sane. If he became president, it might be possible to find some way to work with him, or override him.

We're trying to find a legitimate way to prevent the horrors.

And, if we manage to do that, it will save the rest of you from him.

[Angel]
 
Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
blah, blah.. and criminal man taking office.

Can you provide a list of what laws he has been found guilty of breaking and what sentences the courts handed down?

Not what YOU think are crimes of course, that isn't worth anything. But real laws that he has broken.

[ 16. January 2017, 11:34: Message edited by: deano ]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
blah, blah.. and criminal man taking office.

Can you provide a list of what laws he has been found guilty of breaking and what sentences the courts handed down?

Not what YOU think are crimes of course, that isn't worth anything. But real laws that he has broken.

Well, he has publicly admitted that he carried on affairs while married (although he did eventually serially marry the two women involved) which, in the State of New York is a Class B misdemeanor (punishable by up to 90 days in jail or a $500 fine): Penal Law 255.17 states that a person is guilty of adultery when he/she engages in sexual intercourse with another person at a time when he/she has a living spouse. In this case, he has admitted his criminal behaviour and has not to my knowledge retracted his admission.

While he claimed to have sexually touched women without ascertaining their consent, he later said that he was not telling the truth ("locker-room talk") so, without a state attorney being satisfied that there was other credible evidence, we can't tell if he was a criminal in this respect. In any case, his guilt here would also be determined by the particular laws in the state(s) in which such foul and caddish behaviour might have taken place, and the dates of these instances (while I have always found it odd that there are 50-plus criminal régimes in the US, that's how it is).
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It can't merely be trying to influence voters. People spend millions trying to influence voters, and US law does very little to curtail it. Does trying to influence voters suddenly become illegal if you're foreign?

I don't know what our current laws about Americans trying to influence elections.

But illegal for foreigners? Duh.

I hardly think that Duh constitutes a valid legal argument.

And nor does a rhetorical question about what I would want to happen in Australian elections mean anything. My entire point is the difference between perception ("foreigners influencing our elections is bad, especially if they're Russian") and law ("foreigners influencing our elections in this way is illegal").

I'm not arguing with you about whether Russians influencing American elections is a bad thing. I'm asking whether it's an illegal thing.

And Duh does precisely nothing to explain why it's okay for me to try to persuade an American not to vote for Trump, but not okay for Vladimir Putin to try to persuade an American not to vote for Clinton. You didn't include that bit of my remarks in your quote, but it's absolutely crucial.

If there's a general Duh law about influencing American elections, then every single non-American on this forum that expressed a view on American politics may have broken it. We don't get a free pass just because we're from "nice" countries rather than from Russia.

[ 16. January 2017, 11:51: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
orfeo--

AFAIK, you are not the ruler of any country. That is the difference.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

I'm not arguing with you about whether Russians influencing American elections is a bad thing. I'm asking whether it's an illegal thing.

That's not the question I'm interested in. But is it an impeachable offence for any Presidential Candidate to collude with such a covert process with a nation state which is in (to put it mildly) bad odour with the US government? The answer I find is that it is indeed an impeachable offence if Congress says it is.

Seeking to bugger up a free and fair election is an interference in the sovereign affairs of a nation state. Being commander in chief and having taken an oath of office to "preserve, protect and defend" the US Constitution is at variance with getting into bed, collusively, with a historical enemy, in order to obtain the highest office in the land.

Note I am not saying he has done that. I'm saying that his statements and actions certainly give pause for thought. For all I know (and given the confidential briefings, others in Congress probably know more), there may very well already be grounds for further investigation of this point.

[ 16. January 2017, 12:45: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
orfeo--

AFAIK, you are not the ruler of any country. That is the difference.

I work for the Australian Government. Still okay?

Again, I'm not talking about the political level of this, at all. I've got no problem with people being disturbed as all hell about the prospect of an American President being overly friendly with a Russian one.

What I am saying is that there's a need to separate the emotional reaction out of it when talking about legal consequences, including notions of claiming a President is "illegitimate" or a "criminal".

You admitted to not knowing the law about influencing elections re Americans, but now you're apparently making up the law when it comes to foreigners on the fly, going from Duh to saying that it's a law that applies to foreign leaders. As far as I can tell, the only basis for this is a continuing desire to reason backwards from the desired result of wanting the bad man Putin to have done something not just bad, but illegal.

The former Australian PM managed to weigh in on Brexit. Everyone felt it was appalling bad form. I'm not aware of anyone suggesting it was illegal. I remain highly skeptical that there exists a law that specifically targets the leaders of countries in the way that you suggest.
There are plenty of political sanctions for when countries are unhappy with each other, including the expulsion of diplomats which was Obama's response.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

I'm not arguing with you about whether Russians influencing American elections is a bad thing. I'm asking whether it's an illegal thing.

That's not the question I'm interested in. But is it an impeachable offence for any Presidential Candidate to collude with such a covert process with a nation state which is in (to put it mildly) bad odour with the US government? The answer I find is that it is indeed an impeachable offence if Congress says it is.
Quite possibly. The whole notion of impeachment is pretty different to anything I'm familiar with. If the courts say that they won't examine the rightness of an impeachment then it pretty much does become a political exercise, with Congress judging both how angry it is and whether the populace is also sufficiently angry to accept an impeachment.

In some ways I find that somewhat worrying. Then again, my own country has shown itself perfectly capable of dumping Prime Ministers in various ways.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
orfeo

The U.S. Constitution says this

quote:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

ARTICLE I, SECTION 3, CLAUSE 7

Which seems fine to me for a political process, leaving the law to decide whether any further action can or should be taken.

Congress may say no more (indeed it may say less) than it is turfing the office holder out on the grounds that in their view he's done things which make him unsuitable to continue in office. It is a political process; it doesn't necessarily have any further legal ramifications unless the articles of impeachment point to a crime punishable under the law. Even then in that case, the courts have to be satisfied that the President is provably a lawbreaker.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Orfeo writes:

quote:
If there's a general Duh law about influencing American elections, then every single non-American on this forum that expressed a view on American politics may have broken it. We don't get a free pass just because we're from "nice" countries rather than from Russia.
US elections law, if I interpret it correctly, only prohibits donating funds for those elections which fall under federal jurisdiction. Influencing, in general, would fall under impeachable activities which, as others note, is what the House of Representatives says it is.

As for Duh, I leave it for Homer Simpson.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
orfeo

The U.S. Constitution says this

quote:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

ARTICLE I, SECTION 3, CLAUSE 7

Which seems fine to me for a political process, leaving the law to decide whether any further action can or should be taken.

Congress may say no more (indeed it may say less) than it is turfing the office holder out on the grounds that in their view he's done things which make him unsuitable to continue in office. It is a political process; it doesn't necessarily have any further legal ramifications unless the articles of impeachment point to a crime punishable under the law. Even then in that case, the courts have to be satisfied that the President is provably a lawbreaker.

Yes, but removing a President from office is a pretty major deal.

As is talking about doing it before he's even taken office.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
orfeo

Fully understood. There may be a good deal of "ad hominem" going on in this thread so far as Trump is concerned. But that's because he's an asshole who gives daily proof of his unfittedness for high political office. Electing such an asshole to such a high office is also a big deal.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
I'm going to be watching the inauguration while I care for my aged mother (fearful and anxious person who was seduced into supporting Trump). Don't feel much like getting into an argument with a 95 year old,so...

I'm going to keep a secret tally of how often he references himself in his speech (as opposed to the nation or ideals to strive for,etc).

sabine
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I do admit that I was hurt and disappointed by Meryl Streep's decision to play Thatcher. I said some nasty things about her to my wife.

For some reason no one is ever "hurt and disappointed" about an actor's decision to play the lead in Shakespeare's Richard III, despite the fact that the character is a murderous tyrant.
Shakespeare's Richard III was a fictional Character, but the terrible Thatcher was frighteningly real. My great fear was that the film about Thatcher was going to be a hagiography. I understand it wasn't. My wife, when it was on telly, called me in to watch the bit about Thatcher's descent into senility. That was good.
There was simply too much material for them to cover in a film of that length. You have the young Thatcher battling sexism in the Tory ranks and seizing the leadership after Heath's failure, Maggie in her pomp, Thatch going off her head after three election victories and senile Margaret having conversations with the dead Dennis and being looked after by Carol despite the fact that the hopeless boy Mark was her favourite. Imagine putting the Star Wars prequels and Vader's death scene in Return of the Jedi* into one film and you have some kind of grasp of the scale of the enterprise.

*Thatcher was less annoyingly whiny than Anakin and had better hair.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I'm going to be watching the inauguration while I care for my aged mother (fearful and anxious person who was seduced into supporting Trump). Don't feel much like getting into an argument with a 95 year old,so...

I'm going to keep a secret tally of how often he references himself in his speech (as opposed to the nation or ideals to strive for,etc).

sabine

There is no way on God's green earth I'm watching. No TV, facebook on Friday. Will spend the day celebrating daughter's birthday and getting ready for granddaughter's birth. So if something dramatic happens, please text me.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I'm going to be watching the inauguration while I care for my aged mother (fearful and anxious person who was seduced into supporting Trump). Don't feel much like getting into an argument with a 95 year old,so...

I'm going to keep a secret tally of how often he references himself in his speech (as opposed to the nation or ideals to strive for,etc).

sabine

There is no way on God's green earth I'm watching. No TV, facebook on Friday. Will spend the day celebrating daughter's birthday and getting ready for granddaughter's birth. So if something dramatic happens, please text me.
Alas, I can't get out of it without upsetting my mother, and her life is pretty bleak as it is.

sabine
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
I will not watch it. In fact, I'll be en route to a weekend getaway in a place that gives me great pleasure. If anything worth paying attention to happens, I'm sure I'll hear about it.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Eight years ago I watched it live (split screen on my work computer) and had tears in my eyes. It was such an exciting, hopeful occasion.

This Friday I will not watch a minute of it, but -- as Miss Amanda says -- we are sure to hear if anything of importance happens.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Doubtless it will be seen (in parts, maybe) on UK telly.

Given the right-wing element in this country, which sees The Mango Mussolini as The Saviour Of The World, it will probably be rather depressing and [Projectile] making....

OTOH, it (the Trumpuration, I mean) might almost be worth watching simply for the sheer ghastliness of it all.

IJ
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The covert interference by Russia, under 'very senior direction', in the US Presidential election, demands a very strong response from the US.

What options do we exactly have? I don't think the current or soon-to-be administrations are exactly flush with good ideas. Our historical response to Chinese military and economic espionage certainly has been rather muted.

Until recently there were people celebrating the leaking and releasing of our state secrets through Assange and Snowden. I wonder if they are still considered heroes for transparency and democracy, or stooges serving autocracy. We aggressively pushed the Internet in the Arab Spring as a tool for political change, and it seems as though it is capable of just that. Though not in the way the evangelists of Twitter/Facebook,etc. probably envisioned.

quote:
Mattis's summary seemed spot on to me. The range of issues over which there can be bilateral co-operation is decreasing, the range of issues requiring confrontation is increasing. Trump's responses so far have been wholly inappropriate when faced with the reality of Putin's intentions and behaviour.

Are we looking at a return to the Cold War? It depends whether Putin can be persuaded that it is in his interests to back off.

I think General Mattis right in pointing out our common interests exist, and we will work with Russia where we can. I think he's correct that we have tried to engage with little success. We may be looking at a new Cold War, but it's not the same Cold War as before. Russia scored a victory, and not because they were able to get Trump elected; I don't believe that for a minute. They certainly attempted to intervene, but their real success has been to show with how little effort they can throw our Government in to turmoil. The Democratic party is now playing the illegitimacy game along with the Republicans. That is a dangerous omen for an era of partisanship which we may not have envisioned that could cause true paralysis. If the mission is destroy Trump, but not win his electorate, the effects could be catastrophic in terms of the divisions we could be facing.

[ 16. January 2017, 16:36: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
 
Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
blah, blah.. and criminal man taking office.

Can you provide a list of what laws he has been found guilty of breaking and what sentences the courts handed down?

Not what YOU think are crimes of course, that isn't worth anything. But real laws that he has broken.

Well, he has publicly admitted that he carried on affairs while married (although he did eventually serially marry the two women involved) which, in the State of New York is a Class B misdemeanor (punishable by up to 90 days in jail or a $500 fine): Penal Law 255.17 states that a person is guilty of adultery when he/she engages in sexual intercourse with another person at a time when he/she has a living spouse. In this case, he has admitted his criminal behaviour and has not to my knowledge retracted his admission.

While he claimed to have sexually touched women without ascertaining their consent, he later said that he was not telling the truth ("locker-room talk") so, without a state attorney being satisfied that there was other credible evidence, we can't tell if he was a criminal in this respect. In any case, his guilt here would also be determined by the particular laws in the state(s) in which such foul and caddish behaviour might have taken place, and the dates of these instances (while I have always found it odd that there are 50-plus criminal régimes in the US, that's how it is).

So that would be a "no" then.

Somehow I thought that would be the case.

The left just loves its hyperbole, or less charitably, lies.

How on earth the left expects anyone to trust its arguments over the merits of its political position is beyond me, because we can't believe a word it says.
 
Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
blah, blah.. and criminal man taking office.

Can you provide a list of what laws he has been found guilty of breaking and what sentences the courts handed down?

Not what YOU think are crimes of course, that isn't worth anything. But real laws that he has broken.

Well, Trump and his father were sued by the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice for systemic violations the Fair Housing Act of 1968.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
And the result was an injunction with no finding about breaching the law.

Crimes are particular things. They are not a general description for legal trouble.

Also, that was 1973.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
[Roll Eyes]

If there was an injunction, then yes, they did break the law. That is how these things work. There was a bargain whereby there would be no finding of guilt, and no admission of guilt, in return for accepting and complying with the injunction.

That's how regulatory enforcement works in pretty much any advanced country you care to name.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
No, that isn't how an injunction works. An injunction is directed at future conduct. It isn't some kind of punishment for past conduct.

[ 16. January 2017, 21:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Deano posts:

quote:
So that would be a "no" then.

Somehow I thought that would be the case.

The left just loves its hyperbole, or less charitably, lies.

How on earth the left expects anyone to trust its arguments over the merits of its political position is beyond me, because we can't believe a word it says.

Actually, I thought it was a no to your first sentence, and a yes to your second, which I felt (and I could be wrong) provided a full and useful answer--not being questioned in a court, I can provide a wider response than a simple yes or no if I believe it to be helpful.

In the case of Mr Trump, he has admitted his crime (and adultery is a crime in the State of New York), and having claimed to have committed another, he then repudiates his admission. I really do not know what to make of this, but such people are not welcome at my table. Right and left has nothing to do with this.

Who the US Electoral College chooses is nothing over which I have any control, of course, but of the many US citizens I know, scholars, clerics, military, artsies, and just plain folks, I know no-one who is as caddish and marginal in behaviour as the president-elect. I am troubled that of the thousands of capable and qualified right-wingers or conservatives (not identical categories, but ...), this was the best which came up. I have tried to take care to leave right and left out of my observations, possibly because conservative Canadians qualify as outrageously bolshevik in conservative US circles (I have some good anecdotes on this from having attended conferences in my former RL, but another time).
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No, that isn't how an injunction works. An injunction is directed at future conduct. It isn't some kind of punishment for past conduct.

[Killing me]

That is exactly how an injunction works in modern regulatory systems. Been there, done that. If there wasn't a reasonable basis in past conduct, the injunction would not have been issued.

There would have been standard "while we admitting no guilt, and as you will waive your right to sue, we will agree to this injunction." This is how regulators encourage settlement, compliance and save on enforcement.

I have a settlement agreement with my employer signed at the Labour Board where that extremely common legal maneuver features prominently.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:


OTOH, it (the Trumpuration, I mean) might almost be worth watching simply for the sheer ghastliness of it all.

IJ

Sort of like slowing down to gawk when you pass a horrible, fiery, bloody traffic fatality as you drive down the highway...

Except in this case you don't get to just drive on by... the car you're driving will ultimately end up in the same fiery heap.

[ 16. January 2017, 22:42: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No, that isn't how an injunction works. An injunction is directed at future conduct. It isn't some kind of punishment for past conduct.

[Killing me]

That is exactly how an injunction works in modern regulatory systems. Been there, done that. If there wasn't a reasonable basis in past conduct, the injunction would not have been issued.

But that doesn't contradict what orfeo said. You may think it does, but it doesn't. It's the courts saying "Don't do X" without ever having found you guilty of doing X, or you having admitted to doing X.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I've managed to keep the vomit down (just) while watching Michael Gove "interview" The Donald; and leaving all else aside, the plain fact is that The Donald is incredibly thick.

So now we'll have four years to see if there is a base level of stupidity for would-be incumbents of the White House.

I think I'll do something uplifting on Friday: turn out the loft, paint the inside of the shed, maybe spring-clean the organ loft: anything rather than watch the nonsense in Washington.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No, that isn't how an injunction works. An injunction is directed at future conduct. It isn't some kind of punishment for past conduct.

[Killing me]

That is exactly how an injunction works in modern regulatory systems. Been there, done that. If there wasn't a reasonable basis in past conduct, the injunction would not have been issued.

But that doesn't contradict what orfeo said. You may think it does, but it doesn't. It's the courts saying "Don't do X" without ever having found you guilty of doing X, or you having admitted to doing X.
We can, however, reasonably infer that X happened, given that the injunction was issued. Regulators do not issue injunctions without reasonable grounds and motivation.

Therefore, Trump's company engaged in 'colourable' conduct that caught the eye of the regulator.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
We can, however, reasonably infer that X happened, given that the injunction was issued. Regulators do not issue injunctions without reasonable grounds and motivation.

We can infer that someone has good reason to THINK that X occurred. That there was smoke. But not necessarily that there was fire.

But even so that doesn't make the injunction a punishment.

[ 16. January 2017, 23:40: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I do not know the law well on this, but a lawyer friend once commented with respect to a specific case in which he obtained an injunction for his client that everyone knows it means that the party is guilty, but for the sake of costs and getting a solution, we will all pretend. Was it an hypocritical act, I enquired, and was told that it was, but it saved so much trouble and had a nice seal on the appropriate page.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Ah, the substitution of process for substance. Modern politics at its best!
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Doubtless it will be seen (in parts, maybe) on UK telly.

..

Was watching a SKY Sports feed of the cricket ODI in India and suddenly between overs there was "Hail to the Chief" being played and Trump saying hopeful banal things - commercial for the event. Murdoch seems to be trying to make this into a seminal event.

Its a Friday - I'm not going to watch anything and will likely stay off twitter for a few hours.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No, that isn't how an injunction works. An injunction is directed at future conduct. It isn't some kind of punishment for past conduct.

[Killing me]

That is exactly how an injunction works in modern regulatory systems. Been there, done that. If there wasn't a reasonable basis in past conduct, the injunction would not have been issued.

But that doesn't contradict what orfeo said. You may think it does, but it doesn't. It's the courts saying "Don't do X" without ever having found you guilty of doing X, or you having admitted to doing X.
We can, however, reasonably infer that X happened, given that the injunction was issued. Regulators do not issue injunctions without reasonable grounds and motivation.

Therefore, Trump's company engaged in 'colourable' conduct that caught the eye of the regulator.

You can infer all you like. What's missing is any realisation on your part that injunctions are also used sometimes before anything has happened, for the precise purpose of ensuring that it never happens.

Seriously, that's the purpose of injunctions: to stop things from happening. It's not actually a valid assumption that this inevitably means the thing has already started.

It is indeed perfectly possible to infer in a case such as the Trump one (from over 40 years ago, for God's sake) that someone believed something was already happening. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the legal principles involved. I'm talking about the fact that when someone specifically asks for proof, at a legal level, about Trump committing crimes or breaking the law, an injunction simply doesn't meet that standard of proof. It does not involve a court finding that a breach of the law has occurred, and no amount of use of emojis or sarcasm on your part will alter the way injunctions legally work.

Also, Regulators don't issue injunctions. Regulators go to courts to ask courts to issue injunctions. Your lack of precision is showing.

[ 17. January 2017, 00:13: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Ah, the substitution of process for substance. Modern politics at its best!

Process matters. Process is why police aren't supposed to be able to throw in you jail just because they don't like the look of you. And process is why a Regulator has to prove its case in court rather than getting to be both prosecutor and judge.

Process is part and parcel of how laws work, of how organisations work. Process is what creates annual general meetings, and votes. Process is what determines which things the boss decides and how the boss decides them.

[ 17. January 2017, 00:26: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
[Disappointed]

If you would like me to survey the plenary and para-judicial authority and procedures of statutory tribunals like the Ontario Labour Relations Board, I will, I shall spare the Ship that one.

But a small example. My brother works for the Law Society of Upper Canada as an investigator. He has full legal authority to search lawyer's premises and files without a warrant to conduct Law Society investigations, under the Law Society Act. He does so on a regular basis. Who decides what is reasonable grounds for a search? The Law Society does.

quote:
You can infer all you like. What's missing is any realisation on your part that injunctions are also used sometimes before anything has happened, for the precise purpose of ensuring that it never happens.

Quite right, and I will never make that "admission". I know better. What you are describing is how private citizens litigate against other citizens. It is not how the Government in its regulatory capacity litigates or behaves. At all. And I thank Augustine the Aleut for teaching me that most valuable lesson about government. It really is different at that level.

For example, the standing Rules of Procedure at the Ontario Labour Relations Board concerning Unfair Labour Practices (illegal employer actions against employee's union freedoms) is to order the parties to Mediation. The vast majority of cases are settled with a consent agreement. Augustine the Aleut was spot on on this one. Guilt does not matter so much as what the parties are willing to settle for to avoid the expense of a hearing.

A company such as Trump's does not land in front of a regulator without reasons. Neither does the regulator actively litigate without reason.

And finally, the Law is no guarantee of justice. Nor is process, a very good lawyer taught me that. You don't go to court for Justice. If you want that, look elsewhere.

This may be a Pond Issue. I believe Australian Courts are very fond of Procedural Fairness in pursuit of justice, whatever the outcome. Canadian courts, aiui, are far less taken with procedure and far more taken with pith and substance. Witness the difference in rights litigation.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Not one word of that post contradicts what I said. How on earth do you think that a power to search is equivalent to a power to determine guilt?

I write this stuff for a living, you know. I'm well aware of the range of different powers given to regulators, because I spend quite a lot of my time discussing with regulators or prospective regulators which powers they want and which powers are likely to be justifiable to the Senate.

Yes, there are Pond differences. But did you actually read the link provided about the Trump case? I did. It's quite clear that the government Regulator took the Trumps to court, that they ended up settling the case, and that the injunction was the settlement. Everything I've said has been 100% consistent with that, and to be honest I'm asking whether you read the link because a number of the things you've said don't seem to indicate an awareness of what is actually reported in that link.

Nor are you tying any of your discussion back to what deano originally asked. I'm not interested right now in "justice". I'm not interested right now in whether Trump is massively unsuited to the office of President. Neither of those have anything to do with the question actually asked.

[ 17. January 2017, 01:38: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Honestly, there are plenty of arguments that can be made about why Trump is likely to be a terrible President. Why is it that everyone seems so keen to bring in language like "criminal" in an attempt to bolster the case against him?

It seems to me that it's actually a subconscious recognition of the importance of those kinds of processes that are used to label someone as a criminal or a lawbreaker because those are seen as more objective standards.

But you can't have it both ways, folks. If you invoke the law as a reason that Trump is not able to be President, then you've got to deal with legal standards. If you don't want to deal with legal standards, then stick with language of morality and common sense and practical fitness for the job.

I haven't got the slightest problem with any number of arguments that Trump is unfit for the job. All the same arguments that were made before he was elected (assuming the election result was valid).
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
A company such as Trump's does not land in front of a regulator without reasons. Neither does the regulator actively litigate without reason.

Yes, which is simply a variation of 'no smoke without fire'.

One might just as well say that prosecutors don't prosecute without reason.

And? You're still missing the point. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm denying that the regulator believed the Trumps had broken the law. I'm not denying that remotely.

The point is that the regulator in the Trump case had to go to court. Okay? That's the surest possible sign that the regulator didn't have the power to make the legal determination that the Trumps had broken the law. The regulator took the Trumps to court because they wanted a court to impose a penalty.

The court didn't do that.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Okay, legal standards: Trump will be in violation of the emoluments clause of the US Constitution from the moment he takes the oath of office. He is not taking concrete steps to avoid that. There's a link to a legal brief from the Brookings Institution here.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
blah, blah.. and criminal man taking office.

Can you provide a list of what laws he has been found guilty of breaking and what sentences the courts handed down?

Not what YOU think are crimes of course, that isn't worth anything. But real laws that he has broken.

Well, Trump and his father were sued by the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice for systemic violations the Fair Housing Act of 1968.
I'm going to back to this original exchange that I came in on, and then I swear I'll go off and do something else.

As well-meaning as this is, saying "he was sued" is the same as saying "he was prosecuted". It just doesn't answer the question.

If someone asked you "was OJ Simpson convicted of murder" and your response was "well, he was put on trial"... I hope you all see the problem.

"Was OJ Simpson convicted of murder" is not the same question as "did OJ Simpson commit murder" and being asked to express your opinion on the subject.

Asking whether (you think) Trump has broken the law is not the same as being asked whether Trump has been found by a court to have broken the law. That was the question. That Trump was sued by a government agency shows that a government agency believed he had broken the law, yes, but that's not the same question as the one that was specifically asked.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Okay, legal standards: Trump will be in violation of the emoluments clause of the US Constitution from the moment he takes the oath of office. He is not taking concrete steps to avoid that. There's a link to a legal brief from the Brookings Institution here.

Yeah, I do think that's a genuine legal issue.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
In response to all the Streep/Thatcher Hater haters, I hated Meryl Streep for playing Thatcher when I first heard about her agreeing to do it. At the time, the idea of doing a film on Thatcher appalled me, and I couldn't understand why Streep would be involved in the project, let alone Streep, who was tremendously funny in the Hollywood comedy, A Dingo Stole My Baby. I could only assume that she was one of those people who loved Thatcher, like Michael "choo-choo" Portillo or Dennis Thatcher. Also, some Americans I met of the Regan is a Demi-god variety seemed to really love Thatcher and not understand that she was a creature sent from hell.

I have since discovered that the wonderful Jim Broadbent plays Dennis Thatcher, and that the film itself wasn't the hagiography I had expected. I have just recently seen a portion of it, the end bit where Thatcher is senile, and it seemed OK. However, I am a stubborn bastard and my opinions on inconsequential matters are slow to shift. I also like being an idiot and looking ridiculous. I do this mostly to amuse myself.

[ 17. January 2017, 02:39: Message edited by: simontoad ]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
blah, blah.. and criminal man taking office.

Can you provide a list of what laws he has been found guilty of breaking and what sentences the courts handed down?

Not what YOU think are crimes of course, that isn't worth anything. But real laws that he has broken.

Well, Trump and his father were sued by the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice for systemic violations the Fair Housing Act of 1968.
I'm going to back to this original exchange that I came in on, and then I swear I'll go off and do something else.

As well-meaning as this is, saying "he was sued" is the same as saying "he was prosecuted". It just doesn't answer the question.

...Asking whether (you think) Trump has broken the law is not the same as being asked whether Trump has been found by a court to have broken the law. That was the question. That Trump was sued by a government agency shows that a government agency believed he had broken the law, yes, but that's not the same question as the one that was specifically asked.

To be perfectly pedantic, the original question was a two-pronged one:
1. What laws has he broken
2. What sentences has a court handed down

That's different than simply "what crimes has he been convicted of?".

I believe he has broken laws in the past ranging from violations of labor laws to possibly sexual assault. Some of these crimes have been settled out of court. Others were crimes that were charged to corporations or foundations he was at the helm of, rather than to him individually. But then, I believe his pal Putin has also committed even more serious crimes. Just as you rightly point out that being accused or prosecuted for a crime is not the same as being convicted of a crime, I would point out that not being convicted of a crime is not the same thing as not being a criminal.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
No, to be perfectly pedantic "1. What laws has he broken" is not the wording.

The wording is perfectly clear in asking "what laws he has been found guilty of breaking".

Really, if you're going to insist on perfectly pedantic, you can't do it by obscuring the very distinction I highlighted. The distinction that means, with all respect, what you believe about the laws he has broken is irrelevant.

Even though it's completely relevant to the general discussion about his fitness to be President.

[ 17. January 2017, 04:01: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
People might wonder why I harp on about this kind of thing, but for me it goes to fundamental questions about why we even have courts in the first place. If it doesn't matter whether or not there's a formal finding by a court as to breaches of the law, then why bother going to all the effort and expense that that involves?

There may well be purposes, including political purposes, for which the prevailing perception about guilt or innocence of a person is what matters. But a big part of our system of laws is based on questions about whose opinion on those questions is definitive.

Courts exist because of a feeling that we ought to separate out the person with the definitive opinion from all the other powers and interests. Which is why, by the way, I think the US system of electing judges is fundamentally dumb.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
and then they woke up...
Trump Inauguration review
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No, to be perfectly pedantic "1. What laws has he broken" is not the wording.

The wording is perfectly clear in asking "what laws he has been found guilty of breaking".

Really, if you're going to insist on perfectly pedantic, you can't do it by obscuring the very distinction I highlighted.

Agh. No, if I'm going to insist on being pedantic, I'm going to have to read more carefully. I swear, I was absolutely sure it said "what laws has he broken."

Bleh.


[brick wall]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
orfeo--

FWIW: ISTM many of your posts on this topic come across as "if it's not illegal, you shouldn't do anything about it, you can't do anything about it, just live with it".

That doesn't help our American situation.

As to "criminal": we're talking about a man who reportedly has a lonnnng history of sexually assaulting women, and behaving voyeuristically with underage beauty pageant contestants. (Among many other things.) I'm not saying "summarily throw the bozo in prison, before the inauguration". If criminal or civil charges are brought against him, hallelujah! My concern is working withing the existing laws and rules, even the arcane ones, to legitimately keep him from being president. Not because he's a Republican; but because he's repeatedly, publicly demonstrated that he has some sort of serious mental illness; hates (or talks of hating) whole groups of people; is busy causing international incidents before even taking office; and seems to be in league with a frienemy foreign power. (And many other things.)
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re Meryl Streep portraying Margaret Thatcher:

She was probably cast because she's good at playing formidable women. Ever watch "The Devil Wears Prada"? The title refers to her film character. Really good film.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
orfeo--

FWIW: ISTM many of your posts on this topic come across as "if it's not illegal, you shouldn't do anything about it, you can't do anything about it, just live with it".

I would prefer you read many of them as "if it's not illegal, understand that the law isn't going to come to your aid so stop invoking the law".

Because if it's not illegal, the solutions are political. Which is an entirely different toolkit. More than anything I get frustrated by the blurring of political processes with legal ones.

I haven't got the slightest problem with people arguing against Trump's policies (Lord knows I think many of them are idiotic). I haven't got the slightest problem with people finding ways to put pressure on legislators in an effort to prevent policies being implemented.

But understand that that's not about law. It's not a question, for example, about the legislators having the authority to make a law that you don't want. Understand that if a law gets passed, it's still the law whether you like it or not. Understand that if a really crappy guy gets validly elected as President, he's still the President. He might be the worst President you ever had, but he's still the President.

This is hardly new territory for me. Time and time again I try to get people to distinguish the emotional language of "this person is a horrible or idiotic person" from the language of law. I've done it with high profile criminal cases, for example.

And the reason I think it matters so much is because now more than ever, people get "tried" in the court of public opinion in ways that are deeply unfair and that would scare the living crap out of any of us if we were subjected to it. The rules shouldn't change based on how popular a person is. That's the protection for when you suddenly discover that you aren't as popular as you thought.

But politics, and the political, is one area where the court of public opinion is legitimate. It's what elections are. Just don't confuse it with law.

Don't confuse your opinion about whether or not Trump will be horrendously crap at this job with the legal question of whether or not he has the job. Because if you do, sooner or later there'll be someone that you love that others will hate, and you will find that reasoning flipped in a way that you don't like.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
My concern is working withing the existing laws and rules, even the arcane ones, to legitimately keep him from being president. Not because he's a Republican; but because he's repeatedly, publicly demonstrated that he has some sort of serious mental illness; hates (or talks of hating) whole groups of people; is busy causing international incidents before even taking office; and seems to be in league with a frienemy foreign power. (And many other things.)

Yeah, and if you succeed, have you thought about the implications for the next guy, and the next guy, and the first woman, and the next woman?

This is what I'm talking about. If you find a rule that works, it won't be because it has the name "Donald Trump" written into it. It won't. It will be a rule that applies to any person.

Which is why you want to be very VERY careful, in your enthusiasm to remove Donald Trump, that you don't make it easy for future Presidents - ones that you really like - to be removed by their enemies.

There certainly are rules that might be used. The "emoluments" clause, for example.

But the part that really doesn't inspire confidence is when you get into things like declaring Trump a criminal and diagnosing him with mental illness. Because guess what? It comes across as a wild-eyed version of "I HATE THE GUY", and in the deeply polarised world of American politics there will be someone wildly saying "I HATE THE GUY" about someone you really like.

Save that kind of expression for the political stuff, not for the legal stuff.

[ 17. January 2017, 10:33: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
ADDENDUM: Really, I would've thought the sight of people chanting "lock her up! lock her up!" would have educated people about the dangers of mixing together political campaigns and legal processes.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I'm re-deriving the point from this discussion that law and rule of law is a relative thing, affected by many other things than truth and and fact. Which reconfirms my lived experience that truth (whatever that is) is flexible when professional arguments are hired, process may get in the way when the pros use it tactically.

[tangent]
In real life, I am involved in an initiative to not allow lawyers to speak in front of hearing panel re a regulator. We were successful in a particular hearing, and confirmed on appeal. Which then allows this to become The Procedure.
[/tangent]
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Meryl Streep portraying Margaret Thatcher:

She was probably cast because she's good at playing formidable women. Ever watch "The Devil Wears Prada"? The title refers to her film character. Really good film.

Yeah never saw that, don't like pig Capitalists. My big big problem with the whole thing is it elevates Thatcher to something more significant that a bully. The very fact that a film was made about her sets her apart from ordinary British Prime Ministers and makes her an icon. I would prefer that she was forgotten.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I'm re-deriving the point from this discussion that law and rule of law is a relative thing, affected by many other things than truth and and fact. Which reconfirms my lived experience that truth (whatever that is) is flexible when professional arguments are hired, process may get in the way when the pros use it tactically.

[tangent]
In real life, I am involved in an initiative to not allow lawyers to speak in front of hearing panel re a regulator. We were successful in a particular hearing, and confirmed on appeal. Which then allows this to become The Procedure.
[/tangent]
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Because if it's not illegal, the solutions are political. Which is an entirely different toolkit. More than anything I get frustrated by the blurring of political processes with legal ones.
You must be very frustrated, because legal processes derive from political ones. There is no law without politics, and the law is just politics in midstep.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
SPK is spot on here.

But I am jumping breathlessly onto my computer to tell everyone about Sam Power's interview by Judy Woodruf on PBS Newshour, broadcast in the United States a few hours ago. Woodruff, I think that's better, politely probes her about Syria and Obama's chemical weapons red line. It's interesting stuff.

Back to painting the hall while listening to PBS.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Meryl Streep portraying Margaret Thatcher:

She was probably cast because she's good at playing formidable women. Ever watch "The Devil Wears Prada"? The title refers to her film character. Really good film.

Yeah never saw that, don't like pig Capitalists. My big big problem with the whole thing is it elevates Thatcher to something more significant that a bully. The very fact that a film was made about her sets her apart from ordinary British Prime Ministers and makes her an icon. I would prefer that she was forgotten.
The fact of the matter is, she was elected with a majority government in 1979, and re-elected twice afterwards, in elections where everyone who voted Tory must surely have understood what her agenda was.

So, if you don't like Thatcher being treated as a relevant figure, it seems to me your argument is not with the filmmakers who reflected her relevance, but with the large section of British voters who made her relevant to begin with.

And I dislike Thatcherism as much as any progressive. But I also realize that we can't wish away history, or regrettable voting habits.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
***INAUGURATION INFO***

--Inauguration (and anti-inauguration) schedule (Washington Post). If you look at the upper lefthand corner, you can click on "Inauguration 2017" to find all sorts of other related info.

--"Presidential Inauguration 2017" (USA.gov) has the historical background of the various activities.

--Official inauguration site (58pic2017).
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Meryl Streep portraying Margaret Thatcher:

She was probably cast because she's good at playing formidable women. Ever watch "The Devil Wears Prada"? The title refers to her film character. Really good film.

Yeah never saw that, don't like pig Capitalists. My big big problem with the whole thing is it elevates Thatcher to something more significant that a bully. The very fact that a film was made about her sets her apart from ordinary British Prime Ministers and makes her an icon. I would prefer that she was forgotten.
The fact of the matter is, she was elected with a majority government in 1979, and re-elected twice afterwards, in elections where everyone who voted Tory must surely have understood what her agenda was.

So, if you don't like Thatcher being treated as a relevant figure, it seems to me your argument is not with the filmmakers who reflected her relevance, but with the large section of British voters who made her relevant to begin with.

And I dislike Thatcherism as much as any progressive. But I also realize that we can't wish away history, or regrettable voting habits.

The film was made quite a while after her period in Government, but not long enough. But really and truly, if you can't wish away history you are just not trying hard enough
[Yipee]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Because if it's not illegal, the solutions are political. Which is an entirely different toolkit. More than anything I get frustrated by the blurring of political processes with legal ones.
You must be very frustrated, because legal processes derive from political ones. There is no law without politics, and the law is just politics in midstep.
Nope. The whole point of what I'm saying is that laws are set out in advance. Laws are of general application. Laws don't mention "Donald Trump" by name.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
orfeo

That's a given. As is the constitutional right given to Congress to impeach a sitting President and deprive him of office for reasons which seem good and sufficient to them.

I agree entirely with the principle that laws should neither be ad hominem nor applied ad hominem. In the US, however, the constitution gives the law makers of Congress more discretion than that. Personally I don't have a problem with that discretionary freedom.

[ 18. January 2017, 13:33: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I'm not sure what gave you the impression I had a problem with it.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
***INAUGURATION INFO***

--Inauguration (and anti-inauguration) schedule (Washington Post). If you look at the upper lefthand corner, you can click on "Inauguration 2017" to find all sorts of other related info.

--"Presidential Inauguration 2017" (USA.gov) has the historical background of the various activities.

--Official inauguration site (58pic2017).

Thanks for posting these, Golden Key.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I could fish up some links about the March on Saturday. There are half a hundred sites open for marchers to get drinks and use the bathroom, for instance.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm not sure what gave you the impression I had a problem with it.

Here.

This quote

quote:
In some ways I find that somewhat worrying. Then again, my own country has shown itself perfectly capable of dumping Prime Ministers in various ways.
And here.

This quote

quote:
Yes, but removing a President from office is a pretty major deal.
I thought from those quotes that you had misgivings about the US Constitutional process of impeachment. But maybe I was reading too much into what you said?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Entomology strikes again: a moth has been named after Trump, because of its golden head, Neopalpa donaldtrumpi. Scurrilous scientists report that it has insignificant genitalia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38661250
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
I read a article on California Dems reaction to the Trump election today , found here and came out wondering if all those who want States rights on matters might be less inclined once they realise how some of the bigger states are not so right wing.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm not sure what gave you the impression I had a problem with it.

Here.

This quote

quote:
In some ways I find that somewhat worrying. Then again, my own country has shown itself perfectly capable of dumping Prime Ministers in various ways.
And here.

This quote

quote:
Yes, but removing a President from office is a pretty major deal.
I thought from those quotes that you had misgivings about the US Constitutional process of impeachment. But maybe I was reading too much into what you said?

Okay, right.

I don't have a problem with the existence of discretion as such. Lots of laws have discretion.

I do have an instinctive caution about really wide discretions because, in the context of my work, they're a recipe for concern about how they might be used. But Congress is an appropriate home for a wide discretion in this situation.

I guess what I had in the back of my mind, though, was the possibility of a purely political case where Congress said that treason, bribery or a high crime or misdemeanour existed when no objective observer would think that it existed. That's not so much about discretion, in the sense I normally think of it, as being able to go beyond power and no-one being in a position to prevent it.

What I hadn't appreciated is the function of the two houses - if I understand correctly, the House of Reps launches the impeachment but the Senate does the trial. So even that helps prevent a blatant case of "it's treason because we said it was treason" without any genuine evidence of treason.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
All right, let's have a laugh. This is, believe it or not, Mike Pence's Facebook Page. It seems to be genuine, not a fake. It is now offering a link, where you can go and order free tickets to the Inaugural. I tried it, to see if it was a fake, and seem to have tickets! (I am working that day, and so cannot go.)
What is hugely entertaining? The comments. OMG. The guy who asked for tickets to the impeachment instead has 79,000 likes!
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
That's why Votes of Confidence evolved, because they are explicitly political and make no apologies for that.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
That's why Votes of Confidence evolved, because they are explicitly political and make no apologies for that.

Well yes, exactly (assuming you are responding to my previous post).
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
orfeo--

I get the gist of what you said, and even agree with some of it. Basically, no witch hunts.

But this isn't a witch hunt.

This is finding a way, within our existing American laws and rules, to deal with a president-elect who has shown himself, publicly, over and over again, to be grossly unfit to be president.

As I said, in one of the posts to which you responded, this is not a matter of "OMG, a Republican president"! I listed several real factors.

You said it's like I or people like me are screaming "I HATE TRUMP", without any basis for it. I'm not sure I even hate him. I may, or not. But I'm going by his actual behavior in the debates (particularly the ones from last summer and fall), in interviews, in his reported (and, often, documented) prior conduct.

How did you react to Trump *before* the November election? Last night, I looked for the old thread (which closed soon after this started), but couldn't find it. And I haven't had the time to trawl through Hell threads. I was going to review what you'd actually said, so I could be accurate.

So please help me by filling me in. What did you think of Trump as a candidate? Did you think he could/should/would win the election? Were you one of the ones who said that T would ruin the world, and it would be America's fault, and Americans are stupid? Did you watch the debates? He was unhinged, over and over.

And, BTW, I'd already thought about future misuses of any existing rule, procedure, or law we use in this situation, of having it used against a candidate I like. That could happen. Congress and political creatures do that kind of payback.

But this is a very specific situation of someone who is *extremely* dysfunctional, and can't do the job. I don't know what all caused his dysfunction. I feel sorry for him AND think he's something of a monster. (You might remember that several Shipmates and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why he's the way he is.)

And there's a big difference between saying "Ok, we need to find an existing rule, procedure, or law with which to stop him", and chanting "Lock her up".

I see that you're extremely frustrated. FWIW, your posts come across to me as arguing the merits of certain brass cleaners on the Titanic, while it's heading for the iceberg. You may not mean it that way. I think you probably care about people (even Americans! [Biased] ) more than your recent posts on this thread let on.

Is there a way for you to get to "ok, America's rules, laws, and procedures aren't what I think they should be; but Americans are trying to work within what they have to deal with a crisis, and good luck to them"?
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I think Trump was a terrible candidate. But that's the difference between the political and the legal. The political is doing everything you can to prevent the election of someone. The legal is acknowledging if they were duly elected despite your efforts.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
I'm quite sure that when the Mango Mussolini decided to run for President, he thought that the job consisted of all the public things the President does - the occasional press conference, speeches, riding around in motorcades and Air Force One and Marine One, visiting foreign countries, pardoning turkeys, etc. I don't think he had the slightest knowledge of the structure or function of the executive branch, and I don't think he's learned anything. It seems the only preparation he's done since Election Day is change the style [sic] of his comb-over.

The success of his brand is not based on any management expertise; he's a cheat and a liar. His first instinct will be to try to play CEO and tell his cabinet secretaries to enact all his insane promises. When they can't do what he wants because there's no budget / no lawful authority / it's unconstitutional, he'll throw a tantrum and blame "Washington".

Drumpf can't really do a lot without Congress, so Paul Ryan and Turtle Man* will likely be pivotal figures in the next four years. Republicans are fundamentally antipathetic to quality education, so I predict they will fail to create jobs in the Rust Belt and Drumpf will find some excuse to not run for re-election. The Democrats absolutely, positively have to do better both at the state and national level in the next four years, or they'll lose 2020, probably to Mike Pence ( [Projectile] ), and lose for another decade after census and redistricting.

Some states will hold out against the Rump agenda (I'm lookin' at you, New York and California) and the USA will become some sort of patchwork of Cascadia, The Capitol and the Twelve Districts, and the Republic of Gilead. There'll be something for everybody!

*Mitch McConnell.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I'm quite sure that when the Mango Mussolini decided to run for President, he thought that the job consisted of all the public things the President does - the occasional press conference, speeches, riding around in motorcades and Air Force One and Marine One, visiting foreign countries, pardoning turkeys, etc. I don't think he had the slightest knowledge of the structure or function of the executive branch, and I don't think he's learned anything. It seems the only preparation he's done since Election Day is change the style [sic] of his comb-over.

The success of his brand is not based on any management expertise; he's a cheat and a liar. His first instinct will be to try to play CEO and tell his cabinet secretaries to enact all his insane promises. When they can't do what he wants because there's no budget / no lawful authority / it's unconstitutional, he'll throw a tantrum and blame "Washington".

Drumpf can't really do a lot without Congress, so Paul Ryan and Turtle Man* will likely be pivotal figures in the next four years. Republicans are fundamentally antipathetic to quality education, so I predict they will fail to create jobs in the Rust Belt and Drumpf will find some excuse to not run for re-election. The Democrats absolutely, positively have to do better both at the state and national level in the next four years, or they'll lose 2020, probably to Mike Pence ( [Projectile] ), and lose for another decade after census and redistricting.

Some states will hold out against the Rump agenda (I'm lookin' at you, New York and California) and the USA will become some sort of patchwork of Cascadia, The Capitol and the Twelve Districts, and the Republic of Gilead. There'll be something for everybody!

*Mitch McConnell.

Yes. As bad as it is to be in US right now, California may be able to stave off the worst of the effects. But it really, really will suck to live in a red state in the next few years. Even the Trump voters don't deserve what they're likely to get.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes. As bad as it is to be in US right now, California may be able to stave off the worst of the effects. But it really, really will suck to live in a red state in the next few years. Even the Trump voters don't deserve what they're likely to get.

Sure they do. But Trump will tell them that what they're getting is really great. My sympathy is for those who voted against him and are in red states. Blue states aren't going to be all that great either as Congress turns off the funding faucets.

As for his Cabinet, you'd have to go back to the Grant Administration to find a group grabbed more money. They're having a hard time getting them rubber stamped because of conflicts of interest. At least Grant had a better memoir.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think Trump was a terrible candidate. But that's the difference between the political and the legal. The political is doing everything you can to prevent the election of someone. The legal is acknowledging if they were duly elected despite your efforts.

And furthermore, the political is "he's going to do dreadful things", whereas the legal is "you have to wait until he's actually done the wrong thing".

Maybe that's my central problem, GK, with all the "we have to stop him becoming President" type of rhetoric. Something like impeachment is based on what a person has DONE in the job, not on predictive fears about what he's going to do, however likely those predictions are.

If we're going to talk about the Titanic... you can't convict the captain of sinking the ship until it's sunk.

Anyway, as RuthW (I think) pointed out, there's an excellent chance of Trump breaching the Constitution almost as soon as he's sworn into office, with business conflicts.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
orfeo:
quote:
And furthermore, the political is "he's going to do dreadful things", whereas the legal is "you have to wait until he's actually done the wrong thing".
This is not reassuring, when the job in question carries with it the power to obliterate most of the globe with nuclear missiles.

I am fairly confident that someone will knock him down and sit on him if he tries to start a nuclear war because someone insulted his hair. But it would be nice if that unnamed someone didn't have to.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
This is a fun idea. Won't happen, but fun. [Smile]


"Everyone's talking about Joe Biden becoming the next president, and here's how that could actually happen." (Hello Giggles)
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
orfeo:
quote:
And furthermore, the political is "he's going to do dreadful things", whereas the legal is "you have to wait until he's actually done the wrong thing".
This is not reassuring, when the job in question carries with it the power to obliterate most of the globe with nuclear missiles.

I am fairly confident that someone will knock him down and sit on him if he tries to start a nuclear war because someone insulted his hair. But it would be nice if that unnamed someone didn't have to.

Yeah well, lots of things would be nice. If would be really nice if millions of people hadn't approved his job application. But they did. Millions of people decided to give him the power to, among other things, control nuclear missiles.

The fact that you and I think this was an utterly nuts decision... welcome to democracy.

That's a fundamental problem with the echo chamber effect of saying things like "we" or "the people of America" have to stop Trump being President. It's kind of bullshit. The fact is, it was other "people of America" who decided that this should happen.

[ 19. January 2017, 09:12: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Brenda--

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I could fish up some links about the March on Saturday. There are half a hundred sites open for marchers to get drinks and use the bathroom, for instance.

Don't know if this will help, but Hello Giggles has "11 steps you NEED to take before heading to the Women's March on Washington". Has related links, too. (I just stumbled across this, but the ideas look pretty sensible, IMHO.)
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
orfeo:
quote:
Millions of people decided to give him the power to, among other things, control nuclear missiles.
Millions of people did vote for him, but a couple of million more than that voted for Hillary Clinton. The people who decided to give him the power to control nuclear missiles were the members of the electoral college. Presumably they thought he'd be easier to control once in office. Or that being male made him more qualified than Hillary to be President. Or they were all being controlled by giant alien lizards.

I don't believe we have democracy in either the US or the UK any more (if we ever did). Instead, we are occasionally allowed the illusion of choice between different members of the oligarchy. Most people have learned that things don't change much, whoever you vote for. This is only true if the successful candidate is willing to work within the existing system.

[ 19. January 2017, 11:58: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes. As bad as it is to be in US right now, California may be able to stave off the worst of the effects. But it really, really will suck to live in a red state in the next few years. Even the Trump voters don't deserve what they're likely to get.

Sure they do. But Trump will tell them that what they're getting is really great. My sympathy is for those who voted against him and are in red states. Blue states aren't going to be all that great either as Congress turns off the funding faucets.
It will be hard here in true-blue Calif., but remember that federal taxes are a net loss for us-- we pay out more than we get back. And we have a lot of left-wing billionaires here. So we can expect federal taxes to go down for us and state taxes to go up as more and more things like Covered California get shifted to the state level. I'm not suggesting there'll be no impact-- there will be no escaping the Trumpacalypse for any of us. But I think a large, prosperous blue state will have an easier time navigating it then the already struggling red states where federal funding is a net gain.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Any removal of Tiny Fingers must come from the GOP. They hold both houses of Congress. They themselves must become disgusted to the point of revolt, or, more likely, terrified until they are driven to act.
To get Turtle Man (love it!!) to this pass is going to be hard. They do not want another failed presidency (like Nixon). They will not want to admit it. You can avert your eyes from disaster for years, and they will. They'll be compelled to, by ego and the lust for power.
I cannot imagine the scope of the calamity that will get their heads up out of the sand, but it's going to be bad.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
BTW, the Washington Post has removed its paywall through Saturday. So you can pop over and read all the inaugural and March coverage for free.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It will be hard here in true-blue Calif., but remember that federal taxes are a net loss for us-- we pay out more than we get back.

Only slightly in the numbers I looked at. It appears California is just below being one for one in dollars paid in Federal taxes versus what is returned. It appears there are only 14 states that pay more in than they receive, and California is last out of those. Delaware is first in terms of paying in more than they get in Federal Dollars. Illinois is number two. I think there is more to this in terms of assessing fiscal health however. Illinois like California has a substantial amount of unfunded pension liabilities, and paying off these obligations will substantially affect service delivery.

It is interesting that apparently only about a quarter of states pay in more than they receive back in Federal dollars. I don’t know what that has looked like historically, but it does not seem to me that is sustainable. Assuming the states that get more than they pay in cannot raise more revenue, the higher producing states will either have to pay in more or there will have to be cuts in spending. Assuming again we don’t want the deficit to spiral out of control.

[ 19. January 2017, 17:21: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
It appears there are only 14 states that pay more in than they receive, and California is last out of those.

Assuming you're looking at the same data The Atlantic is looking at here, it should be noted that those fourteen states contain about 39% of the U.S. population. I'd also suspect that California, New York, and Illinois (all on the list) also have above average per capita state GDPs.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A quite eloquent cri de coeur.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A quite eloquent cri de coeur.

Very well written -- may I get an Amen?
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
It's the 20th where I live, and my thoughts and prayers are with everybody in the US, especially those who will brave the cold and the police to record their rejection of Trump and what he stands for.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Due to bandwidth issues (it is expected that the number of cell phones will render many of them unuseable) I won't be able to post from the March on Saturday. However, d.v., I will post pictures on Facebook and also blog about it on Sunday. The getting-ready blog post is going up here tomorrow.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Millions of people did vote for him, but a couple of million more than that voted for Hillary Clinton. The people who decided to give him the power to control nuclear missiles were the members of the electoral college. Presumably they thought he'd be easier to control once in office. Or that being male made him more qualified than Hillary to be President. Or they were all being controlled by giant alien lizards.

Or they thought the rules meant something.

Seriously, I'm sick of hearing about the popular national vote. The popular national vote doesn't mean a damn thing in MOST of the countries that Shipmates generally come from.

I can't think of any field besides politics where "we would have won if the rules of the game were different" is considered a meaningful argument.

As Trump himself pointed out in one of his more lucid moments, if the rules of the game had been different, both he and Clinton would have had completely different campaign strategies. They would have spent their time and money in different places compared to what actually happened. Densely populated places in California would've been a centre of attention.

It's a system designed to reflect the federal nature of the United States. If people want to try to have it changed for future elections so that large population centres can ignore small populations even more than they already do, good luck to them, but everyone who mattered knew the rules of the election going in, and how many more millions of people voted for Clinton is an irrelevant byproduct.

[ 19. January 2017, 20:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
According to some experts on NPR today, there's never been a President so ill prepared for the transition. True to form, Donald didn't want to be bothered with meetings, plans and decisions to help things go smoothly. We might even see some flub ups tomorrow on a par with Mariah Carey's New Year's Eve performance at Times Square. I may watch the inauguration after all.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Here's hoping this presidency is no worse than a train crash.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
I would agree, Orfeo. But I similarly am tired of hearing people (not here but significant in the blogosphere) say "stop talking about the popular vote. Trump would have won the popular vote if it weren't for California and NY". Meaning that California and NY don't count.

Yes, we don't get to rewrite the election rules after the fact (though we might going forward, for better or worse). The rules of the election are electoral college is what determines the presidency.

But by the same logic, you cannot redefine what "popular vote" means. Popular vote means the majority of Americans. The majority of Americans live in a few very large cities in a few states. And their voices should matter. That they don't matter right now in the EC is something that may or may not be rectified in the future going forward. But when you're talking about things like "mandates" or the "will of the people" that means the will of ALL the people, including those in large, densely populated urban areas.

[ 19. January 2017, 22:19: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
According to some experts on NPR today, there's never been a President so ill prepared for the transition. True to form, Donald didn't want to be bothered with meetings, plans and decisions to help things go smoothly. We might even see some flub ups tomorrow on a par with Mariah Carey's New Year's Eve performance at Times Square. I may watch the inauguration after all.

I'm sure the flubs will be shown over and over again, so I feel no need to watch this horror story unfold on live television.

I'm pretty much going into ostrich mode tomorrow. If I bury my head in the sand it won't really be happening.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Assuming you're looking at the same data The Atlantic is looking at here, it should be noted that those fourteen states contain about 39% of the U.S. population. I'd also suspect that California, New York, and Illinois (all on the list) also have above average per capita state GDPs.

They probably do. I was not looking at that page, but a related one with some of the same data. In that link the map of poverty levels is interesting, in particular within California.

I don't know exactly what these varying levels of contribution and return of Federal tax dollars will mean at a state level in terms of providing shielding or exposure to the policies of President Trump. That is primarily because I don't know what exactly the policies of President Trump will be. I don't know who does. So the talk of the sky falling seems premature to me, at least at this point. I assume it is more visceral dislike of Mr. Trump than anything else.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
]I'm sure the flubs will be shown over and over again, so I feel no need to watch this horror story unfold on live television.

I'm pretty much going into ostrich mode tomorrow. If I bury my head in the sand it won't really be happening.

I'm with you. Just like odds are, someone, somewhere will have explosive diarrhea tomorrow, but I don't have to watch it on live TV. I won't watch this. I have made plans for tomorrow to stay far far away from social media and TV. Books, time with family, hiking.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I have a couple of errands to run, then I plan to find somewhere quiet and spend the night listening to scary story YouTube channels. Seems appropriate.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
]I'm sure the flubs will be shown over and over again, so I feel no need to watch this horror story unfold on live television.

I'm pretty much going into ostrich mode tomorrow. If I bury my head in the sand it won't really be happening.

I'm with you. Just like odds are, someone, somewhere will have explosive diarrhea tomorrow, but I don't have to watch it on live TV. I won't watch this. I have made plans for tomorrow to stay far far away from social media and TV. Books, time with family, hiking.
I plan to watch at least some of it, probably on PBS. Mostly the actual ceremony. I might listen on NPR; but I do want to see people's faces and reactions.

I may also do a variation on a drinking game: when T says something I disagree with or abhor, I

--click on a click-to-donate site (e.g., GreaterGood.com, or Care2.com);

--sign an online petition (e.g., ThePetitionSite.com, CredoAction.com, or Change.org);

--play a game that generates donations (e.g., FreeRice.com, or FreeKibble.com);

--search through a site that donates (e.g., GoodSearch.com).

Those are all free, BTW. I may do this while watching, or keep a tally and do it later. I hope it will give me some sense of balance.

YMMV.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Kelly--

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I have a couple of errands to run, then I plan to find somewhere quiet and spend the night listening to scary story YouTube channels. Seems appropriate.

"Welcome To Nightvale"? [Biased]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I hit the local newspaper entertainment section (online edition) to look for something to do but the pickings were extremely slim (and most involved driving 40 miles north to Seattle). Wish it were baseball season. They should have this during baseball season.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I plan to watch at least some of it, probably on PBS. Mostly the actual ceremony. I might listen on NPR; but I do want to see people's faces and reactions.

I may also do a variation on a drinking game: when T says something I disagree with or abhor, I

--click on a click-to-donate site (e.g., GreaterGood.com, or Care2.com);

--sign an online petition (e.g., ThePetitionSite.com, CredoAction.com, or Change.org);

--play a game that generates donations (e.g., FreeRice.com, or FreeKibble.com);

--search through a site that donates (e.g., GoodSearch.com).

Those are all free, BTW. I may do this while watching, or keep a tally and do it later. I hope it will give me some sense of balance.

YMMV.

OK, that sounds healthy. Just don't turn it into a drinking game because that much alcohol could cause one permanent harm. Then again, perhaps you'd pass out and wake up 4 years later...
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
On a different note, is it time to retire this thread and start a new one tomorrow? Since the election is no longer the issue, but how we will live under president cheeto?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
cliffdweller--

I don't drink, so no worries. [Smile] It's just that people often come up with drinking games for things like this. I wanted something *I* could do, that might also do some good. FWIW.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
[I don't know exactly what these varying levels of contribution and return of Federal tax dollars will mean at a state level in terms of providing shielding or exposure to the policies of President Trump. That is primarily because I don't know what exactly the policies of President Trump will be. I don't know who does. So the talk of the sky falling seems premature to me, at least at this point. I assume it is more visceral dislike of Mr. Trump than anything else.

That and his cabinet and his staff and his conflicts of interest and his relationship with Putin and his ability with money...
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Thanks Palimpsest. I couldn't find the words for that one.

[ 20. January 2017, 04:57: Message edited by: simontoad ]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
I'm done. I'm turning the TV off for at least 48 hours. Call me shallow if you will, but I've booked a haircut and manicure for tomorrow; I need to go into self-protective mode. On Saturday I will join 60,000 of my best friends to march in Chicago. But tomorrow is a day of quiet, prayer, and self-care.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Assuming you're looking at the same data The Atlantic is looking at here, it should be noted that those fourteen states contain about 39% of the U.S. population. I'd also suspect that California, New York, and Illinois (all on the list) also have above average per capita state GDPs.

They probably do. I was not looking at that page, but a related one with some of the same data. In that link the map of poverty levels is interesting, in particular within California.

I don't know exactly what these varying levels of contribution and return of Federal tax dollars will mean at a state level in terms of providing shielding or exposure to the policies of President Trump. That is primarily because I don't know what exactly the policies of President Trump will be. I don't know who does. So the talk of the sky falling seems premature to me, at least at this point. I assume it is more visceral dislike of Mr. Trump than anything else.

Actually, we can make a very educated guess as to some of his policy, from what has been said and from his appointments. He is going to throw attempts to limit anthropogenic climate change out of his pram. I spent part of last night reading about this in the Guardian and New Scientist. This is about as close to the sky falling in as anything I can imagine, and is not simply governing the US of A. It is imposing death on many of the people of this world who have had no choice in giving him the power to do this. As the majority who voted against him have had no choice.

There are already people in Bangladesh who are losing the lives they led on farms now below the tide line, and struggling to eat from fisheries which are moving further from land, and to which they cannot go during the more and more frequent cyclone warnings. As one example.

He is going to make this sort of thing worse. He doesn't care about it. That's a good reason for having a negative view of the man. Along with all the rest.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I've booked a haircut and manicure for tomorrow.

Well, as long as the hairdresser doesn't dye it orange and overcomb it. [Biased]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've just heard a vox pop extract from an American in Washington. "How wonderful it is to go to see what God is working in this country."

That would be the deity that first turns people mad in order to destroy them, presumably.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
The Mothman cometh.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I was really pleased with our local newspaper today - no mention of Trumph - just a huge, full front page tribute to Obama saying 'Farewell Mr President'.

Indeed, farewell. The USA no longer has a president - it has a joke.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
When I woke up this morning at 6am Absolute Radio opened the breakfast programme with "It's the End of the World as we Know it"
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
What Boogie said, but, alas, it's a sick joke...

Oh, America, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE???

IJ
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Getting ready to march tomorrow. Here's a preliminary report. I'm specifically soliciting advice on what to bring!
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Good on yer, Brenda!

May the King of Kings protect and watch over you, and all who are marching, or protesting in any other way, wherever they may be.

IJ
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
It's raining in DC now but tomorrow it's supposed to be dry! Also, an even more major blessing, it's not going to be bitterly cold. There have been Inaugural weekends (Reagan's, for one) where it was so frigid it was dangerous to be outdoors. I will have to bundle up for being outdoors for nine hours or so, but I won't have to worry about hypothermia or frostbite.
 
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
Oh dear God. It's actually happening. [Frown] [Projectile]

Lord have mercy! [Help] [Tear] [Votive]
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I'm done. I'm turning the TV off for at least 48 hours. Call me shallow if you will, but I've booked a haircut and manicure for tomorrow; I need to go into self-protective mode. On Saturday I will join 60,000 of my best friends to march in Chicago. But tomorrow is a day of quiet, prayer, and self-care.

TV blackout here too. I'll rely on phone updates from Washington tomorrow. For a cleaned up version of today's coverage of the Oaf of Office, this is much nicer.
 
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
what on God's green earth was that inauguration speech? I'm going to live in the cellar with plenty of tinned food.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
what on God's green earth was that inauguration speech? I'm going to live in the cellar with plenty of tinned food.

I can guess - "Trump is great, America is great, I am great great great, I will grate on your nerves for at least four years. I am so great, so very great. I lurve you all, you are going to feel so so great because Trump lurves you, you'll feel so good now, so so good"

Now betjemaniac, do like me - switch off your TV, get out your best bottle of wine, put on some good music and forget the sad joke of a man.
 
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
what on God's green earth was that inauguration speech? I'm going to live in the cellar with plenty of tinned food.

I can guess - "Trump is great, America is great, I am great great great, I will grate on your nerves for at least four years. I am so great, so very great. I lurve you all, you are going to feel so so great because Trump lurves you, you'll feel so good now, so so good"

Now betjemaniac, do like me - switch off your TV, get out your best bottle of wine, put on some good music and forget the sad joke of a man.

Close - I think he's just promised a new prosperity based on protectionism and US withdrawal from world affairs....

Chinese style "we're not going to impose our way of life on you" coupled with a harangue on all the former presidents that were sitting next to him for failing to honour any of the promises they made at their inaugurations....

forget the wine, I'm going for spirits.
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It's raining in DC now but tomorrow it's supposed to be dry! Also, an even more major blessing, it's not going to be bitterly cold. There have been Inaugural weekends (Reagan's, for one) where it was so frigid it was dangerous to be outdoors. I will have to bundle up for being outdoors for nine hours or so, but I won't have to worry about hypothermia or frostbite.

Franklin Graham mentioned that in the Bible rain is often a sign of God's blessing. True, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes rain is just rain.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Chinese style "we're not going to impose our way of life on you"
And this is bad...WHY?

My only problem with such a promise would be that Trump might not actually keep it.

[ 20. January 2017, 16:48: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Chinese style "we're not going to impose our way of life on you"
And this is bad...WHY?

My only problem with such a promise would be that Trump might not actually keep it.

Nothing if it just means no invasions, quite a lot if it means he's serious about withdrawal from NATO, etc.

Right, now I really am going to forget about it.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
The rain falls on the just and unjust.

I watched to bear witness to the last moments of My President. When he waved as he was getting in the helicopter to leave, I waved back and cried.

Today, I'm dressed in black. There's a huge lump in my throat. God help us.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I can guess - "Trump is great, America is great, I am great great great, I will grate on your nerves for at least four years. I am so great, so very great. I lurve you all, you are going to feel so so great because Trump lurves you, you'll feel so good now, so so good"

Guess again Boogie. It sounded to me like a mix of undiluted nationalism and patriotic fervour to which even the crowd looked a little nervous.
If he can work even half of promised the miracles then all well and good. Trouble with the real world and politics is that miracles nearly always come at a price. History will be his judge.
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
As a little comfort to us all, the announcement before the News Quiz, a topical radio comedy panel show, on the BBC just now:
quote:
'They're here to make Radio 4 great again!' [Smile]

 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Actually, we can make a very educated guess as to some of his policy, from what has been said and from his appointments. He is going to throw attempts to limit anthropogenic climate change out of his pram. I spent part of last night reading about this in the Guardian and New Scientist. This is about as close to the sky falling in as anything I can imagine, and is not simply governing the US of A. It is imposing death on many of the people of this world who have had no choice in giving him the power to do this. As the majority who voted against him have had no choice.

There are already people in Bangladesh who are losing the lives they led on farms now below the tide line, and struggling to eat from fisheries which are moving further from land, and to which they cannot go during the more and more frequent cyclone warnings. As one example.

He is going to make this sort of thing worse. He doesn't care about it. That's a good reason for having a negative view of the man. Along with all the rest.

Yes, it is ironic and shocking how little regard the "pro-life" party has re human life. Same thing with the repeal (and no replace) of ACA: I have taken to carefully avoiding saying it is about "health care" or "health insurance". It's not. It's about human lives. Repealing ACA w/o any viable replacement is, quite literally, about people dying. End stop-- there is simply no other way around it. The photos of GOP Congresspeople cheering the repeal were absolutely horrifying. They were literally high-fiving one another over orchestrating the death of some of their fellow citizens.

Whatever you want to call that it most certainly is not "pro-life".
 
Posted by nickel (# 8363) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
The rain falls on the just and unjust.

//

You're so much nobler than I. My first thought was that Putin arranged another particular, ahem, "shower".
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
But chiefly on the just because the unjust hath the just's umbrella.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:

[/qb]

Yes, it is ironic and shocking how little regard the "pro-life" party has re human life. Same thing with the repeal (and no replace) of ACA: I have taken to carefully avoiding saying it is about "health care" or "health insurance". It's not. It's about human lives. Repealing ACA w/o any viable replacement is, quite literally, about people dying. End stop-- there is simply no other way around it. The photos of GOP Congresspeople cheering the repeal were absolutely horrifying. They were literally high-fiving one another over orchestrating the death of some of their fellow citizens.

Whatever you want to call that it most certainly is not "pro-life". [/QB][/QUOTE]

It is, however, consistently Republican. Close observation has revealed to me the foundation of their ethic: "For me, not you." Health care, for me, not you. Sex, guns, First Amendment rights, all apply solely to me and mine. You are on your own. My candidates get vetted with a light clothesbrush, yours should be grilled intensively over the coals. My proper salute is adoration; yours is questions about your birth certificate.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I have spent the day in radio silence (watching DVD of "Beiderbeck Connection", which is somehow comforting.)
I have heard a description of Hillary clinging to Bill.
I don't really want to know any more.

But what I do want to know is why this reality show buffoon has achieved more coverage of his apotheosis (reminds me of some Latin thing about Claudius becoming a god) than we have ever had abou tthe inaugurations of Bushes, Reagan, Kennedy or Obama. I'm sure it wasn't wall to wall carpeting of the stuff any other time. Not outside the States, anyway. Brief news items only, which did not stick in the mind.

[ 20. January 2017, 19:00: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
But what I do want to know is why this reality show buffoon has achieved more coverage of his apotheosis (reminds me of some Latin thing about Claudius becoming a god) than we have ever had abou tthe inaugurations of Bushes, Reagan, Kennedy or Obama. I'm sure it wasn't wall to wall carpeting of the stuff any other time. Not outside the States, anyway. Brief news items only, which did not stick in the mind.

Just subjectively, I don't think coverage of the inaugural was out of proportion to Obama's. That was a YUGE, historic event. The crowds, on the other hand, were MUCH smaller at Trump's today (though I heard pretty in line with inaugurations prior to Obama).

As William Carlos Williams wrote: "Hold back the edges of your gowns, Ladies, we are going through hell."
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Those protests seem pretty intense from the reports I'm reading. Can't say I agree with the more extreme elements, but I guess there will always be those who turn up to cause trouble.

quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
I watched to bear witness to the last moments of My President. When he waved as he was getting in the helicopter to leave, I waved back and cried.

Today, I'm dressed in black. There's a huge lump in my throat. God help us.

[my bold]

I've been fascinated, for a while, by how much Americans identify with the person of the president. We definitely don't see that here, at least I think we don't: we don't vote for our Prime Minister though -- and we seem to have them change mid-term [party ousting] as well as at elections anyway.

Is it as simple as because you [Americans] cast a vote for them you feel more "connected"? Is it to do with what they did -- i.e. Obama did plenty good, but I can also see some not-so-good from my outside perspective [increased drone strikes, for example]. I thought it may be, but then the person of the US President seems to be fairly engaged with, at an emotional level, all around the world. I must say it befuddles me. I wish them well, and Obama was an historic presidency, and I have no doubt will outshine the curent holder -- but I feel no connection to him, while many around the world see him as "Their President".

Thanks.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I can guess - "Trump is great, America is great, I am great great great, I will grate on your nerves for at least four years. I am so great, so very great. I lurve you all, you are going to feel so so great because Trump lurves you, you'll feel so good now, so so good"

Guess again Boogie. It sounded to me like a mix of undiluted nationalism and patriotic fervour to which even the crowd looked a little nervous.
If he can work even half of promised the miracles then all well and good. Trouble with the real world and politics is that miracles nearly always come at a price. History will be his judge.

But all inauguration speeches have a pile of nationalism and patriotic fervour in them. It would be weird if they didn't.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
OK, nothing to worry about then.

New Mayor, same old town.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
OK, nothing to worry about then.

New Mayor, same old town.

I don't know about that. This one seems to have decided to increase the chances of using the job to feather his own nest (and the nests of his friends) quite a bit.

Rather than drain the swamp, he's pumping fertiliser into it.

[ 20. January 2017, 20:45: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
It's a natural fertiliser. The image of a herd of pigs wallowing in their own excrement will be with me for a long time.
 
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
The only thought I had while listening to the Inaugural Address is...

Does the President really think that everyone before him really didn't care about creating American jobs? As much as he may criticize the government for sending jobs away, every politician worth his stripe, at least promises to create jobs for his own people?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
These may be of use:

--"President Trump's Inaugural Address, Annotated" (NPR).

--The White House website has already been redone. The "Issues" section covers things he proposes to work on.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The only thought I had while listening to the Inaugural Address is...

Does the President really think that everyone before him really didn't care about creating American jobs?

This is not about reality. He's selling to the people who've already bought his rubbish.
quote:

As much as he may criticize the government for sending jobs away, every politician worth his stripe, at least promises to create jobs for his own people?

making a prediction right now. Trump will create fewer jobs than Obama.
 
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
Donald Trump is the Second Nehemiah

Nehemiah built a wall, therefore Trump can build a wall. [Ultra confused]
 
Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
Job jobbed. Now for Article 50.

The left is declining further and further and God is happy.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
CBC reported about and interviewed a Canadian who was crossing the border into the USA. The USA border service turned him away because he was going to a woman's event. Apparently being pro-women is anti-trump. Hardly surprising I guess. I listened to the interview. While border guards may turn anyone away, they more or less admitted that they'd admit him if he was going to support trump. Link (CBC As It Happens).
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The only thought I had while listening to the Inaugural Address is...

Does the President really think that everyone before him really didn't care about creating American jobs? As much as he may criticize the government for sending jobs away, every politician worth his stripe, at least promises to create jobs for his own people?

Right out of the Rob Ford playbook.

Everything that is good has never been thought of before. Anything not good is the fault of previous administrations. He'll play this for 4 years, with calls to Trump Nation whenever he gets stymied by something (which is going to be very interesting when he gets stymied by other governments) to donate and support him and buy his book etc. etc.

Added bonus - a legal document, in the form of an executive order, that says a lot about changing things but doesn't actually change anything. Seems he can't repeal Obamacare on day 1, so he's written an EO saying that Obamacare won't last long (but with all the usual things that have to be there legally about the law still having to be upheld).
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
I just watched the show on ABC i-view. I wish they meant eye-view. tangent. stop it.

I got four messages from it:

1. Fortress America, economically, politically, culturally.

2. Patriotism will cure America's problems, and if they are not being cured you need to be more patriotic America.

3. I'm pretty sure Trump said there were something like tens of ten million people there. Now is that an american billion or a british billion? Note: I'm very bad at mathS.

4. Trump was pausing for the cheers, and all he got was polite applause.

5. I was so bored I took the rubbish out in the middle of the speech. And I'm a politics junkie who usually turns each word over a few times.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:


Added bonus - a legal document, in the form of an executive order, that says a lot about changing things but doesn't actually change anything. Seems he can't repeal Obamacare on day 1, so he's written an EO saying that Obamacare won't last long (but with all the usual things that have to be there legally about the law still having to be upheld).

A good point and this is going to frustrate the hell out of Trump. Presidential power, even with Congress broadly of the same ilk, is constrained (AFAIK) by the Constitution and statute. Just as in his campaign and the preliminaries, we're going to hear a lot of what he's going to do.

Over here in Britain we have Royal Prerogative, but the use of that is subject to judicial review (according to Lord Denning, and I'll take his word for it).
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I've been fascinated, for a while, by how much Americans identify with the person of the president. We definitely don't see that here, at least I think we don't: we don't vote for our Prime Minister though -- and we seem to have them change mid-term [party ousting] as well as at elections anyway.

Is it as simple as because you [Americans] cast a vote for them you feel more "connected"? Is it to do with what they did -- i.e. Obama did plenty good, but I can also see some not-so-good from my outside perspective [increased drone strikes, for example]. I thought it may be, but then the person of the US President seems to be fairly engaged with, at an emotional level, all around the world. I must say it befuddles me. I wish them well, and Obama was an historic presidency, and I have no doubt will outshine the curent holder -- but I feel no connection to him, while many around the world see him as "Their President".

I can only speak for myself, but he's My President because I am so very proud of his tenacity, grace, intelligence, compassion, and love of his fellow Americans. There are things he has done that I'm not happy with, but President Obama had all the facts. I only saw end results. He tried to work with both sides of the aisle, but did not give up when Republicans tried repeatedly to block him.

This man's ethics and morals are of the highest order. His respect for all people was apparent. His fierce defense of the US was akin to a mother bear protecting her cubs.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. He's My President.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
I identify with the Queen as Australia's head of state in a way that I don't identify with our Prime Minister, even our first female Prime Minister Julia Gillard. I think that's because Her Majesty is not a political figure, but iconic of the Commonwealth. She represents Empire, God and the Conquering Spirit of Brittania in the South Seas. She also goes a fair clip in the woolshed on her day.
 
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on :
 
I can honestly admit that in all the years since I first heard the name Obama, my thoughts of him have never been more pleasant than they are today.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
making a prediction right now. Trump will create fewer jobs than Obama.

Surely you understand that Obama has never created a single job, right? So Trump has a pretty substantial head start on him in that regard...
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Rather than drain the swamp, he's pumping fertiliser into it.

I'd like to see a political cartoon of him draining a money "swamp" into his bank account.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Various thoughts on the inauguration, after a long nap:

--I started watching, on PBS, about 10 min. before the ceremony started. Was surprised at how many VIPs were crammed together. Wondered if the balcony (?) is sturdy enough to hold so much weight at once. (Even though it is probably stone.)

--The speech by Schumer (?) was disturbing. Started out sounding like it was going to be about healing divisions. But then it veered into writings by a Civil War (?) soldier, all about how proud he was to give his life for his country. And he died 2 weeks later. I wondered what we were being prepared for.

--The first 3 members of clergy (Cardinal Dolan, another man, and a woman) prayed, and said some things that maybe could be taken a couple of ways. Much of it was the usual "God. give us wisdom" stuff from the Bible. IIRC, I actually thought Dolan did a pretty good job, and I'm disposed (for other reasons) not to like him. I think I found something iffy about the second minister; and I found the woman preacher somewhat annoying, though I was glad a woman was included.

--Later, a rabbi prayed. Seemed clear to me he was sending a message about continuing to support Israel. Something about allied countries that share the same beliefs, and "if I forget you, oh Zion" (or some such).

--Franklin Graham was next. Actually, he directed his remarks to T, rather than praying.

--Justice Clarence Thomas swore in VP Pence. (Thomas actually spoke! [Biased] He's known for not speaking much in Supreme Court hearings, though I think he may have spoken more since Scalia died.) Maybe it's just me, but the VP oath seemed to take longer than the presidential. Is it longer? I haven't had a chance to check.

--T's speech was scary. (I linked to a transcript, upthread a bit.) And his assertion that "God will protect us!" was possibly the scariest bit.

--Jackie Evancho sang well. Saw an interesting bit on TV, last night, about Jackie and her trans sister Juliet, their relationship, and the social media criticism of Jackie endorsing T by performing, and thus dissing her sister and other LGBT folks. However, they seem very close, and very proud of each other. (I think this was on "Nightline".)

That's about all I can think of, right now. I turned off the TV after the Obamas left, and some people moved on to the luncheon. Listened to NPR, but eventually fell asleep.

Oh, and while PBS didn't spend a lot of time zooming their cameras in on particular people, I did see Hillary a few times. She seemed to be in pretty good shape. As to the people who booed when she arrived... [Frown]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Surely you understand that Obama has never created a single job, right? So Trump has a pretty substantial head start on him in that regard...

As your posts don't generally indicate you understand the word understand, I'm not sure explaining anything will be of much help.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Franklin Graham was next. Actually, he directed his remarks to T, rather than praying.

In other words, he prayed to his god.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
his assertion that "God will protect us!" was possibly the scariest bit.

Scarier to my non-American mind was his misappropriation of Psalm 117:
quote:
How good and pleasant it is when God's people live together in unity
following directly on the heels of
quote:
When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice.

 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I can honestly admit that in all the years since I first heard the name Obama, my thoughts of him have never been more pleasant than they are today.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
making a prediction right now. Trump will create fewer jobs than Obama.

Surely you understand that Obama has never created a single job, right? So Trump has a pretty substantial head start on him in that regard...
Please see this link from the Wall Street Journal. While the Obama's presidency doesn't have a stellar record, it is many million times better than "a single job".
 
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
4. Trump was pausing for the cheers, and all he got was polite applause.

Yes, that was very noticeable, wasn't it. I have also read elsewhere this morning that the speech had many quotes lifted almost wholesale from sci-fi films. \It would be funny if it wasn't so very worrying.
 
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And his assertion that "God will protect us!" was possibly the scariest bit.

Even as an atheist I agree with this opinion about Trump''s cringe-making remark.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Susan--

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
4. Trump was pausing for the cheers, and all he got was polite applause.

Yes, that was very noticeable, wasn't it. I have also read elsewhere this morning that the speech had many quotes lifted almost wholesale from sci-fi films. \It would be funny if it wasn't so very worrying.
Interesting. Will have to look that up. ISTM that he may have adapted Lincoln, in the first couple of sentences, and JFK later on.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And his assertion that "God will protect us!" was possibly the scariest bit.

Even as an atheist I agree with this opinion about Trump''s cringe-making remark.
And that in a country which fiercely separates Church and State!
 
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Golden Key

I'm never quite sure whether to post links to another forum here so will send it to you in a pm.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Susan--

Ok, will watch for it. I think it's ok, though, to post a link to another forum. We're just not supposed to start a war between us and them, AIUI.

Thanks.

[ 21. January 2017, 08:08: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
It's a natural fertiliser. The image of a herd of pigs wallowing in their own excrement will be with me for a long time.

Unfair to pigs. As my grandfather, a farmer, explained to me, pigs are actually very clean creatures and keep their excrement separate from where they live and wallow. If they are wallowing in excrement, it is because the humans who are keeping them do not allow them to organise their lives the way they want.

I think these people are more akin to that sort of pig keeper.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
This is an article about the interpretation of Trump's speech that Susan mentioned:

"Trump ‘lifted’ lines from Hollywood films for his inaugural speech." (Jantaka Reporter)
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I identify with the Queen as Australia's head of state in a way that I don't identify with our Prime Minister, even our first female Prime Minister Julia Gillard. I think that's because Her Majesty is not a political figure, but iconic of the Commonwealth. She represents Empire, God and the Conquering Spirit of Brittania in the South Seas. She also goes a fair clip in the woolshed on her day.

Okay, I'm generally pretty neutral about the whole republican debate in Australia, but I find it downright bizarre that you explanation of why you identify with the Queen as head of Australia mentions "the Commonwealth", "Empire" (presumably the British one), and "Brittania".

So basically, you identify her as head of Australia for reasons that have nothing uniquely Australian about them.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Thanks jedijudy & simontoad [very interesting!]; appreciate your responses. Gives me something to think on.

[edit: orfeo was more direct than I]

[ 21. January 2017, 08:31: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re "my president":

What our Jedi said.

A local retro TV station, associated with the Decades.com network, is running retrospectives on the inaugurations of the last 56 years. I've just seen both of Obama's inauguration speeches--so much saner than T's speech. And calming.

During the whole impeachment mess with Bill Clinton, someone was quoted in the media as saying "Europeans elect managers, and Americans elect messiahs". I don't know about Europe, but there's truth to the American part of that.

Plus, since we don't have a parliamentary system, we can't collapse and rebuild our gov't as needed/wanted. We like and expect stability. And we have only a president. So everything gets focused on one person, for better or worse. Mind you, if we *did* have a parliament, we'd probably collapse the gov't every few weeks.

[ 21. January 2017, 09:02: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The left is declining further and further and God is happy.

There have been other times in history when people believed God was happy whereas in fact they were standing on the edge of an almighty fuckup.
This whole business isn't about Left or Right it is about people, and what people are capable of.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
This is an article about the interpretation of Trump's speech that Susan mentioned:

"Trump ‘lifted’ lines from Hollywood films for his inaugural speech." (Jantaka Reporter)

The one from Avatar is pretty convincing.

Plagiarism is, in my view, a good litmus test for con artistry. It is proven here beyond reasonable doubt. And Trump's cavalier attitude to it tells you all you need to know about his ethics without having to sift through leaked reports or fifteen-year-old videos.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Surely you understand that Obama has never created a single job, right? So Trump has a pretty substantial head start on him in that regard...

Paying people to fill the bleachers at the Inauguration is an excellent start. Carry on!
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Indeed, what better way to convince an audience that you can reinstate a fictional Golden age than to use lines and quotes from a fictional golden age.

Like simontoad I noticed trump pausing for cheers that didn't materialise. It could have been the rain or it could be that people are bored already. This is the age of the Internet, people are different. We may be moving into a new age there will though be no going back.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Golden Key posts:

quote:
--Justice Clarence Thomas swore in VP Pence. (Thomas actually spoke! [Biased] He's known for not speaking much in Supreme Court hearings, though I think he may have spoken more since Scalia died.) Maybe it's just me, but the VP oath seemed to take longer than the presidential. Is it longer? I haven't had a chance to check.
IIRC there is no vice-presidential oath set down in the US Constitution-- they are just required to pledge to support the constitution.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I identify with the Queen as Australia's head of state in a way that I don't identify with our Prime Minister, even our first female Prime Minister Julia Gillard. I think that's because Her Majesty is not a political figure, but iconic of the Commonwealth. She represents Empire, God and the Conquering Spirit of Brittania in the South Seas. She also goes a fair clip in the woolshed on her day.

Okay, I'm generally pretty neutral about the whole republican debate in Australia, but I find it downright bizarre that you explanation of why you identify with the Queen as head of Australia mentions "the Commonwealth", "Empire" (presumably the British one), and "Brittania".

So basically, you identify her as head of Australia for reasons that have nothing uniquely Australian about them.

I'm afraid I was going for bizarre, pointing out the absurdity that Australian Republicans find so irritating and parodying my own view.

I do identify with the Queen as our Head of State, and my reasons are that she is more or less apolitical and acts constitutionally. It's not a huge emotional connection, but I am a convinced Constitutional Monarchist. I think that as a system it has stood the test of time, and I think it has worked well in Australia. The House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha has done a good job of not poking its nose into the affairs of their dominions and I see no reason why Charles will be any different as King. I think Australia is big enough to own its history, and I don't think a Republic is a necessary part of us growing up.

In the event that people feel that an Australian Head of State is really important, I propose an Australian hereditary monarchy be established. My suggestion is that John Dalgleish Donaldson be offered the Crown. He's the father of Princess Mary of Denmark, and a Scot.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Maybe it's just me, but the VP oath seemed to take longer than the presidential. Is it longer?

Out of curiosity, if the President were impeached would the Vice-President get appointed?
I'm sure Pence is entirely loyal to Trump and the question has never crossed his mind.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Us versus them. That's what I got from the little bits of trump speech. The comical part is a billionnaire and cabinet of like piggies identifying with the middle class, which it is piggies like this have done over. The paranoid unity of us versus them. Recession would be the thing to pray for as Americans pay more for everything.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Maybe it's just me, but the VP oath seemed to take longer than the presidential. Is it longer?

Out of curiosity, if the President were impeached would the Vice-President get appointed?
I'm sure Pence is entirely loyal to Trump and the question has never crossed his mind.

Yes. Here's the line of presidential succession. It goes: VP, Speaker of the House of Representatives, President pro tempore of the Senate, then cabinet officers in order of the creation of their departments.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I was surprised at how dsytopian Trump's speech was, but I suppose it lends itself to a messianic message. American carnage! But here is the Great Healer.

Also, there are so many hostages to fortune in it - he's going to get rid of terrorism, cure the drugs problem, and crime, and improve schools, and produce tons of jobs. I guess he doesn't care if he fails.

The quote from Avatar looks ridiculous, I can't believe it. Maybe he should wear a Star Wars uniform.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The quote from Avatar looks ridiculous, I can't believe it. Maybe he should wear a Star Wars uniform.

I'm afraid Darth Vader is more appropriate and in his dreams Trump fancies that.

[ 21. January 2017, 13:46: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Does President Pussygrabber still intend to build a wall or fence to keep those ghastly Mexicans out of The Land Of The Free? That's a job creation scheme on the grand scale, surely....oh, wait a mo, the Mexicans have got to build it for themselves, no?

Perhaps another wall along the border with Canada, to stop disloyal Murricans fleeing to a more friendly land?

Whatever. Given that that foreigner Obama failed miserably to establish his Muslim Caliphate, one hopes that Pussygrabber will be even less successful...

IJ
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
I thought it ironic that Samuel Rodriguez's first words - from the Bible reading - was 'God blesses the poor...'. And it was just the beatitudes he read, wasn't it, I don't think he added any words of his own afterwards, apart from commending of the scripture. And I was sorry that Franklin Graham decided to appropriate the rain as God's blessing on Trump's administration, but actually let's hope God does bless it, somehow, because we're all in trouble if he doesn't!

The Avatar-like quote now makes sense. When I heard Trump say it in his speech it really jarred. I thought how strange and unlike him it sounded. And how it didn't even seem consistent with his language and content up to that point. A cut-and-paste job from the Hollywood school of hackneyed cliches makes more sense.

And I felt so sorry for the girl who sang the national anthem, she looked and sounded terrified. A sweet but rather too fragile and thin voice for such a big occasion. She was clearly nervous, not surprisingly. But she kept going to the end, so good on her. She didn't let it overwhelm her.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
I haven't watched the coronation or listed to the speeches, but I did enjoy seeing the entertainment provided by George W. Bush doing battle with a rain poncho.
[Killing me]

(Be sure to scroll down the page to see Rick Perry blowing a bubble with his gum behind Trump as the rabbi spoke.)
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I was sorry that Franklin Graham decided to appropriate the rain as God's blessing on Trump's administration....

That strikes me very much like Shift saying, "No, no. It's a sign the other way. I was just going to say that if the real Aslan, as you call him, meant us to go on with this, he would send us a thunderclap and an earth-tremor. It was just on the tip of my tongue, only the sign itself came before I could get the words out."
 
Posted by Salicional (# 16461) on :
 
Snopes.com is reporting that 'Avatar' contains no line like the one Trump supposedly borrowed.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I thought it ironic that Samuel Rodriguez's first words - from the Bible reading - was 'God blesses the poor...'. ...

It's a safe bet that the Trump administration will make every effort to ensure the poor remain in their blessed state. So doubly ironic.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was surprised at how dsytopian Trump's speech was, but I suppose it lends itself to a messianic message. American carnage! But here is the Great Healer.
.

Neocons now seem like the voice of reason.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I was sorry that Franklin Graham decided to appropriate the rain as God's blessing on Trump's administration....

That strikes me very much like Shift saying, "No, no. It's a sign the other way. I was just going to say that if the real Aslan, as you call him, meant us to go on with this, he would send us a thunderclap and an earth-tremor. It was just on the tip of my tongue, only the sign itself came before I could get the words out."
Yep. It cuts both ways, which is why I hope God does bless Trump's administration, rain or no rain.

I'm kind of sorry about the Avatar debunk, it would've given some light relief to the subject; but maybe Trump could've gone for this instead? [Big Grin]

And when Trump was talking about giving everything back to 'you', the ordinary, ignored Americans, I presume he was going to start with his unpaid taxes?
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Salicional:
Snopes.com is reporting that 'Avatar' contains no line like the one Trump supposedly borrowed.

Thanks for that update.

I regret having been taken in, and should know better.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re rain as blessing:

Hmmmm. Noah.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re rain as blessing:

Hmmmm. Noah.

Anent that Noah....
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I thought for a moment that the aliens in the cartoon were pi**sing on poor Noah....

....but maybe Golden Showers are what The Great Trumpkin is indeed promising, to all those who are sincere (and patriotic).

[Paranoid]

IJ

(Hasn't he started that wall yet ?)
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Madonna being classy as usual:
quote:
“I’m not your bitch”
“Don’t hang your shit on me”
“Donald Trump suck a dick”

---

These protests are something to behold online and on radio. Is there any precedent for such a thing in US history? I cannot recall if there were any when Bush II was inaugurated, but if there were I'm guessing they weren't on this size [and worldwide]. Do protests generally occur at inaugurations?
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Madonna being classy as usual:
quote:
“I’m not your bitch”
“Don’t hang your shit on me”
“Donald Trump suck a dick”

---

These protests are something to behold online and on radio. Is there any precedent for such a thing in US history? I cannot recall if there were any when Bush II was inaugurated, but if there were I'm guessing they weren't on this size [and worldwide]. Do protests generally occur at inaugurations?

The documentary Farhenheit 9/11 shows footage of protests that occured at the Bush inauguration in 2000, with the implication that this was covered up by the mainstream media. But I saw a discussion on a messgae board where someone retorted that there are ALWAYS protests at inaugurations, and that's why the media didn't consider it worth reporting.

Not sure what I'd make of that latter claim, but in regards to your first question, yes there were protests when Bush II was inaugurated.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Perhaps it's the scale of the protests in other countries that's unusual?

Madonna -
[Overused]

Not that Pussygrabber will take any notice of any of it, sadly. But let's at least live in hope that some of his muppets will...

IJ
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
The anti-war rallies in the 80's were very large but these ones today look to be larger.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
These protests are something to behold online and on radio. [QB]Is there any precedent for such a thing in US history? I cannot recall if there were any when Bush II was inaugurated, but if there were I'm guessing they weren't on this size [and worldwide]. Do protests generally occur at inaugurations?

As Stetson points out inaugurations (or any large gathering, for that matter) often attract counter-demonstrators. What's unusual (even unprecedented) here is that more people seem to have shown up for the anti-Trump demonstration in Washington (not even counting similar demonstrations elsewhere) than showed up for Trump's inauguration itself.

As one blogger put it, Trump seems like he's starting out on Day One with Bush 2007 approval ratings.

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Not that Pussygrabber will take any notice of any of it, sadly.

Actually I'm quite sure he noticed it. Anything that's about him holds his interest like nothing else.

[ 21. January 2017, 21:10: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
There are unverified reports of up to 100,000 at the rally in London alone!

Hopefully, Shipmates taking part - wherever - will call in when they've recovered...

IJ
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
In Los Angeles, the police estimated 500,000 attended the march, and they are notorious for underestimating such things. A local ABC news station reported 750,000. Downtown LA was overwhelmed, and the police had to block off additional streets around the rally and march venues to accommodate the crowds. Many of us never managed to march; there was no room! And I have never seen so many people on public transit here. Hours after we arrived, the trains were still disgorging passengers.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I saw no counter demonstrators, and hardly any uniformed police. I assume there were lots of undercover cops. Given that we spent over an hour unable to move at all, and some people were getting a little panicky about that, the mood overall was very positive.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
You got very short memories guys. This is liberal hubris. What got him in power. It means zip. Bupkiss. Nada. Remember Reagan. & Dubbyer won 2 terms.

Embrace him.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
Martin's right. If you don't have a plan for tomorrow, any amount of marching today is in vain.

All - and yes, all - successful political movements do one of two things. They either seize the reins of power, or they burn shit down. Sometimes they do both. That's the lesson of history. If we ignore it, we end up repeating its mistakes.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You got very short memories guys. This is liberal hubris. What got him in power. It means zip. Bupkiss. Nada. Remember Reagan. & Dubbyer won 2 terms.

Embrace him.

I remember Reagan.

I remember George W.

This guy ain't them.


Not going to embrace this fool.

Didn't do it then with Reagan or W, certainly not going to do it now.


*****

Trumpkin Central got very peeved about number comparisons for the inauguration. So much so the very first press event by the Press Secretary, lasting 2 minutes with no questions, was to yell at the press for reporting and to go on about numbers.

Somebody has a number issue.

Nah, not going to embrace this fool. He's a child and his people are focused on the small stuff.

You might insist on this bit of role play Martin but these people are incompetent.

I wouldn't hire em to rake a lawn because they'd keep stepping on the rake.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
No. He isn't them. Quite right. I posted above. He makes the neocons look completely sane.

It ain't liberal to oppose a sexual assaulter, a liar, a danger. It is sensible.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Here are der Failure's thoughts on Trump - probably NSFW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZn1Juf4ha8&nohtml5=False

[Killing me]

IJ

Oh, dear God, thank you for that. I was laughing so hard that I had to watch it twice!
 
Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:


Trumpkin Central got very peeved about number comparisons for the inauguration. So much so the very first press event by the Press Secretary, lasting 2 minutes with no questions, was to yell at the press for reporting and to go on about numbers.

Somebody has a number issue.

We just watched the press briefing - it was astonishing bare-faced lying of the sort you'd expect to see from someone speaking for Erdogan or Putin. It was stuff that anyone who gave even a cursory viewing to the news yesterday knew to be utterly untrue. The bulk of the claims were so contrary to easily-established facts, that you'd have to be delusional or re-enacting O'Brien from 1984, brainwashing Winston to the point where he will say four fingers are five, if Big Brother says so, to have the brass neck to pretend it was the truth.

It was also an all-out attack on the press/media doing their job of holding politicians accountable. Reality seems to be what Trump says it is from now on, don't bother him with facts.

And these are the people the Brexiters want us to suck up to for a trade deal. They actually believe you can negotiate with people who lie like rugs and who change their word from day to day.

We are so very screwed.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
The danger isn't of his failure. It's the resounding success of patriarchy. The triumph of theocapitalism. Of Babylon the Great.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The danger isn't of his failure. It's the resounding success of patriarchy. The triumph of theocapitalism. Of Babylon the Great.

Resounding success? They can't even get an easy spin right. For Pete's sake, that was so easy a layup even most of Trumpkin land was saying it "Of course there was less people - we are here for the people who can't be here because they have jobs, like we do, the job of making America Great Again."

They are wasting time doing nothing of value, and even that is not being done well.

This isn't Babylon. Its a small time Mom & Pop grifter operation that is worried about its image and self worth.

As for patriarchy having a resounding success, incompetence doesn't get much done - seen it before. It can cancel things, and will do one thing very very well and talk about it forever. But it fails to maximise its opportunities.

As for the triumph of theocapitalsim, that's not even close to coming true given the triumph of ear marks and local spending so congressmen and women and Senators can get reelected. Pah...this is all cut taxes and spend stuff.

******

This isn't about winning an election now, its about governing. And that takes a bit more then knowing Donald. A lot of these guys, and its mostly guys, are going to burn out themselves, burn out their trusted staff and burn through resources wasting it on doing things they think change stuff, but don't really. And you want to know why that is going to happen? Cause not only is bureaucracy so entrench in everything that they can't do stuff without somebody putting a brake on, but because every single one of them is more interested in being seen then in actually doing something. For Pete's sake, none of them even know how to hire well because all of them have a history of alienating staff.

They are crap at getting stuff done.

Nah...beware the competent ones like Cheney. Does anybody even see somebody like him in ANY of these appointees? Heck, Pence is the smart one.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Cheney wore a cowboy hat to the inauguration. Just a rain-beating fashion choice, or some kind of message?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re Bush's rain poncho:

This has a different take on his various behavior:

"Did George W. Bush Just Shade Donald Trump's Inaugural Speech?" (Pop Sugar)

At the end of the article, don't miss what he said when asked his opinion of the speech.
[Snigger]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
I was distressed to have to work today. My facebook feed is full of pictures of my friends among the 750,000 rallying in L.A. They tell me the wait to find room on the trains to get downtown was over an hour. They squished on to the packed trains and loved it.

The best pictures of the day, though, had to be the pictures of cops in several cities assigned crowd control, in full uniform-- with the addition of the glorious pink pussy caps.

Those are vying for top spot with the pictures of the protests in Antarctica.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
They estimated 130,000 in Seattle today. (The population is only 650,000, so that's a big chunk of people!) I got stuck in traffic trying to get to the hospital to visit my tai chi teacher, and never got to see him at all. But it was amazing how packed the route was (I was a block away from it at one point). Glad they had such a great turnout. If you have to not reach your destination, it's good for it to be for a very good reason.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I made it into LA for the march. And, yes, the train stations were packed, but luckily my friends and I went early and started from a station that was near the beginning of the line. I did talk to one woman who came from West Hollywood who had no problem getting there comfortably. She came on a bus. She was amazed- her bus was not packed!

The streets were hugely crowded, and from my point of view the event was more of a shuffle than a march. I never did get to City Hall. But I'm still glad I was there. The atmosphere was happy and positive because we felt we were finally being heard. Plus the signs were great!

The only conflict I saw with police was when some drunk thumped a patrol car. Everyone around made disapproving sounds and the officer looked the man in the eye and told him, "Hey! Everyone here is acting nice. Show some respect!" And the officer let a more sober friend herd him away.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
So someone went to the CIA today, and spouted a lot of BS...

"Campaign Trail Trump On Display As He Goes To CIA On First Day As President." (NPR)
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
The thing that got me wasn't the marches. There's been plenty of marches in America. Did they get a million men for the million man march? an irrelevancy no doubt. I think the marches were good. I think it was good that so many people marched in protest.

So, what got me was the lecture that the new White House Press Secretary gave to the assembled media. It was intimidating and forcefully pushed the idea that the Press Secretary was going to tell the media what the truth was, and it was their job to report only that truth. Offending journalists would be named and shamed. The speech was a little over 4 minutes. It is worth a listen, and I urge you to find a copy on your media of choice and watch it.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Apart from being a grand day out, marches that don't get nasty in a plural society achieve what?
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Lyda*Rose - thanks for that little cameo of how the police dealt with a potential 'situation'!

LAPD - [Overused]

(Why, that's the sort of thing our police might do...even today).

IJ
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
The anti-war rallies in the 80's were very large but these ones today look to be larger.

Which was was being protested in the 80s? The Cold War generally, the nuclear arms race, the American proxy conflicts in Central America...?

Or did you mean to write "the 60s"?
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
I'd love to see the briefings completely boycotted except by Russia Today.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
This is about as close to the sky falling in as anything I can imagine, and is not simply governing the US of A. It is imposing death on many of the people of this world who have had no choice in giving him the power to do this. As the majority who voted against him have had no choice.

But certainly global warming is a more complex issue than one nation, or even one administration. The signs may not be good, but they haven't done anything yet. My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.

The Democrats have a higher hurdle as well given the number of state legislatures, Governorships, and House seats the Republicans now control and are likely to retain. Sure, the Republicans started this intransigence game first, but playing along I don't t think will benefit the Democrats. They need a strategy to win the electorate that went for Trump and not just stay the course and play to their base. I haven't seen any signs that strategy is forming or emerging.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.

Maybe you didn't notice the last 8 years.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Og: great come-back, but what will the balance of perception be? I can't see the marginal consituency that put Trump in power not keeping him there. How can he fail them? How can his image fail? His rhetoric mirror? Any more than that of the women's march can fail them?
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Apart from being a grand day out, marches that don't get nasty in a plural society achieve what?

Individuals feel powerless oft times find the connection to others helps. Some marches disappear and are temporary in effect. Others continue to build into something more. Change may ensue. Parades are celebratory and complacent. Marches are protest and unsettled.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Apart from being a grand day out, marches that don't get nasty in a plural society achieve what?

They bring people like this woman into the fold.

This topic has its own thread - shall we continue this there?
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Og: great come-back, but what will the balance of perception be? I can't see the marginal consituency that put Trump in power not keeping him there. How can he fail them? How can his image fail? His rhetoric mirror? Any more than that of the women's march can fail them?

He can fail them by having his Make America Great Again hats made in Vietnam, which some supporters at the inauguration noticed and didn't like. He can fail them by taking away their health insurance. He can fail them by not being able to bring back manufacturing jobs because they didn't all go overseas; many were lost to advancing technology.

Four years from now his supporters will find that their lives have not gotten better, and if the Democrats aren't fools, they'll win back the White House.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Yes, I think big marches can provide many benefits, they enable a movement to take stock, to bring in new recruits, to size up the task in hand. Of course, they don't always succeed - witness the huge marches over Iraq. I think I was in one that was over a million strong.

It's also a call to resistance, and people not yet involved can notice this. We are here, we are not going away, we resist.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Og: great come-back, but what will the balance of perception be? I can't see the marginal consituency that put Trump in power not keeping him there. How can he fail them? How can his image fail? His rhetoric mirror?

I think there are some people who voted for Trump specifically because they expected him to keep certain economic promises, ie. keeping jobs in the USA. They might be a minority, in comparison to the people who were just voting for the Image, or for a return to some vaguely remembered Good Old Days. However, unlike those latter dupes, the people who voted on tangible economic issues are not going to be so easily appeased by tough talk designed to mask the inevitable failure.

So far, we've had a few corporations, hoping to capitalize on what they probably thought was a presidential honeymoon, either agree to keep jobs in the US, or spin an existing decision to keep jobs in the US as being connected to Trump.

Sooner or later, though, CEOs are gonna say "Uh, no. We're moving to Mexico, because that's where we can pay the lowest wages." And that will be that. Trump might try to ask for help from congress, but the Republicans who control that body will know who funds their campaigns, and tell him to scr*ew off.

That will almost certainly move some of the "economic" voters away from the Trump camp. Whether that would be a fatal loss to his coalition, I don't know, but it could make a difference in keeping swing states in the Rust Belt in the GOP column.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Cross-posted with Ruth. Mostly agree. Wasn't aware of the Vietnam-made hats. Pretty bad, on both a symbolic and a consitency level. At this point, I think even his economic voters might be willing to forgive that gaffe("Oh come on, everything is made overseas these days, but He's gonna change that!!"). However, if stuff like that continues, combined with the failure of the bring-back-jobs agenda generally, it could be damaging.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Question...

Where those Asian-made Trump hats official campaign merchandise? According to Reuters, the Make America Great Again hats sold on Trump's website ARE made in the United States, but the ones that people were buying from stores on the way to the inauguration were made in Vietnam etc.

I'd assume that the campaign approved the hats sold in private stores, but with piracy and whatnot these days, you never know.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I think that's called "plausible deniability".
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
The anti-war rallies in the 80's were very large but these ones today look to be larger.

Which was was being protested in the 80s? The Cold War generally, the nuclear arms race, the American proxy conflicts in Central America...?

Or did you mean to write "the 60s"?

No I meant the 80's. Anti war rallies. Anti nuke rallies to but mostly anti-war.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Maybe you didn't notice the last 8 years.

Here is that I said Sure, the Republicans started this intransigence game first

Scorched earth is a game the Trump camp can play and win at. I'm not as confident that the Democrats can.

[ 22. January 2017, 17:35: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Maybe you didn't notice the last 8 years.

Here is that I said Sure, the Republicans started this intransigence game first

Scorched earth is a game the Trump camp can play and win at. I'm not as confident that the Democrats can.

Here's the thing. The Democrats want to block Trump's initiatives because they are bad for our country, bad for our citizens, bad for the world. The Republicans wanted to block Obama's initiatives because he's black. See the difference?
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Maybe you didn't notice the last 8 years.

Here is that I said Sure, the Republicans started this intransigence game first

Scorched earth is a game the Trump camp can play and win at. I'm not as confident that the Democrats can.

You said:
quote:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
If the Republicans start stonewalling all on their own, it's silly to threaten Republican intransigence as payback for Democratic obstruction. If it's to be expected no matter what, it shouldn't weigh in the Democrats' strategic calculations.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Re the inaguration numbers, my mind cannot comprehend the administration's response. Less numbers -- let it go and it may die a death as news rolls on; claim record numbers when photographic evidence [guess it's doctored! [Roll Eyes] ] shows that to be false -- give a minor story more air and make yourself out to be incompetent spinners of lies.

I thought our lot were bad with weasel words and half-truths; my mind spins at how much lower it can actually get. I thought he may be a bad President; never did I think I'd see this, but I suppose I should not be surprised. Truth according to Trump (TM).
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
If it's to be expected no matter what, it shouldn't weigh in the Democrats' strategic calculations.

If there is no importance attached to maintaining the high ground, and if it was a strategy that actually might work, then certainly not.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
If it's to be expected no matter what, it shouldn't weigh in the Democrats' strategic calculations.

If there is no importance attached to maintaining the high ground, and if it was a strategy that actually might work, then certainly not.
Your previous argument was that Republican obstruction would be payback for Democratic attitudes:
quote:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
Are you now abandoning this ludicrous suggestion, or merely ignoring it?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I went to the March in Washington yesterday, and here is a quick blog report on it. With pictures! The embedded links take you to the Washington
Post coverage of the event.

A friend of mine who marched in the '60s assures me that the quality of the signage now is far better. Wittier signs, some of great literacy (I particularly admired the "Send in the Clowns ... Don't Bother, They're Here" neatly credited to Mr. Sondheim.)

I am in the photo wearing a neon yellow rain jacket, which I didn't need -- no rain, and it wasn't even particularly cold.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Your previous argument was that Republican obstruction would be payback for Democratic attitudes

Let me try and clarify then, because I am not intentionally attempting to be read as saying two things.

The Republicans took an extremely obstructionist approach throughout the last 8 years. It's not black and white, but I think by and large the Democrats could credibly claim they were the adults in the room in terms of their willingness to actually govern.

If the Democrats adopt the obstructionist approach now, I think they lose the credibility that comes with willingness to compromise and govern. Perhaps the policy choices of the Trump administration will force them in to this. The obstructionist approach I think increases the chance that there will be a Republican response in kind if power is shifted back. I don't view that as payback, but expected outcome. You could of course reasonably say this would happen no matter what so it shouldn't factor in the strategy of the Democrats. I am not convinced it is a strategy that will work, because I think the Trump camp will find strength in increased partisan polarization. It's probably where we are headed though.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well done, Brenda et al - but as far as The Orange Lord Of The World is concerned, it didn't happen...

IJ
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
What are "alternative facts", if they aren't deliberate lies? Is it as exhausting to be evil as it is to hear about it and see it?

I was thinking of the mix of tragedy and comedy - not enough comedy - and wondering about parallels in history, which led me to Marx's essay about Louis Napoleon's coup in 1851. How grotesque mediocrity can play the hero.

Maybe time to watch Les Miserables again? and consider that the arts are often the source of dissent. And hope that the revolution against Louis Nappy doesn't fail this time in this rhyme of that miserable history. Or start taking LSD.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I think the Trump camp will find strength in increased partisan polarization. It's probably where we are headed though.

I think it's just about maxed out now. But I surely don't see how Democrats standing on principles when Republicans try to, say, destroy Medicare, constitutes an increase in partisan polarization.

If Republicans are going to try to roll back programs that have long been Democratic sine qua nons, then they are going to have to expect pushback. Expecting the Democrats to lay down and die to avoid increasing "partisan polarization" is the height of Doublespeak.

[ 22. January 2017, 20:52: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
What are "alternative facts", if they aren't deliberate lies?

They might just be cries for help from within the bubble of narcissism that keeps Trump's psyche intact.

Seriously, time and again the man demonstrates that he is just completely unable to cope if he's not the centre of an adoring universe. Whether it's the lather he gets into over comedians, or refusing to accept the possibility of an electoral loss, or the need to have had the biggest inauguration in history, or the reports that he spent over half of his speech at the CIA talking about himself.

The Presidency is the ultimate attempt at validation by a man who is desperate for the world to stroke his ego. He's the exact opposite of the famous "ask not what your country can do for you".
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
Keith Olbermann has been getting angrier and angrier in recent days/weeks to the extent that watching his daily videos makes one think he might be causing himself an injury.

Anyway, a friend of mine objected to the way that KO keeps referring to Trump in derogatory terms suggesting he (Trump) is mentally unstable. My friend says there are plenty of people who are actually mentally ill but have not tipped into Trump-like behaviour and it is unfair to use real illnesses to describe Trump's narcissm.

But I have to wonder whether Trump really is ill. Maybe he isn't trying to trick anyone, but maybe he really is mentally ill. Maybe something has malfunctioned so that he really believes - as he appears to regularly indicate - that he prefers to believe the truth is a reality inside his head rather than the one shown by objective reality.

I do think that at times KO is using the whole mental illness thing as a stick to beat Trump, and I'm not sure we can know if he is ill. But then.. well, it might explain a lot of things.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I would not say mentally ill. One can be perfectly healthy mentally and still have a dreadful personality and be a terrible person.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Kellyanne Conway's "alternative facts" comment is in Wikipedia already! Citations and everything.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Re the inaguration numbers, my mind cannot comprehend the administration's response. Less numbers -- let it go and it may die a death as news rolls on; claim record numbers when photographic evidence [guess it's doctored! [Roll Eyes] ] shows that to be false -- give a minor story more air and make yourself out to be incompetent spinners of lies.

It's dead cat politics, whether or not it's on purpose.
Dead cat politics is when you're about to do something important and controversial - or your opponent is directing the course of the political debate - so you say something controversial and comparatively unimportant.
It was a deliberate tactic by the Conservatives in the last UK election. And by accident or design the Grump seems set to do it too.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Yes. What's really depressing is that so much of the media, so much of which is claiming to be there to hold Trump to account, goes after the dead cat with a vengeance every single time.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re Trump's view of the world:

IMHO: His father taught all the kids that only winners deserve to be loved. So everything he thinks, says, does absolutely must be the best and the biggest. Even if it isn't. Otherwise, he's failed.

I've been wondering if he sort of wanders around in a dream state, and is maybe dimly aware of that. So he doesn't always manage to make things happen; and, when he does, the consequences don't matter.

If being president doesn't fulfill his need for love, attention, and winning, what will he do then?

I have seen one sign that he's capable of a normal relationship. When the entire family was interviewed on TV by "60 Minutes", there was a segment where T and Melania were interviewed together. M was asked if she ever tried to tell him he was wrong, etc. She said something like, "yes, but it's up to him to listen". T was asked if he listened, and there was this moment where they were like (IMHO) normal/average couples. He indicated "yes, she tells me stuff", and looked over at her. They looked at each other, and IMHO it was the classic "you frustrate me, and I still love you, and ok, I'll put the garbage out" exchange. There was real affection between them. So there's some bit of him that's that healthy.
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kellyanne Conway's "alternative facts" comment is in Wikipedia already! Citations and everything.

Actually, I kind of like the term. Not because I don't think AFs are falsehoods, but because they capture the postmodern political discourse we are currently experiencing in the West. It reaches beyond the simple notion of there being more than one way of looking at something. It points to the whole psychological process of starting with a foreclosed opinion and working back through evidence in a consequential way until you have the factual outcome you need. If this includes a recalibration of interpretative tools, so be it.
They teach it at many American schools, for instance in biology.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Your previous argument was that Republican obstruction would be payback for Democratic attitudes

Let me try and clarify then, because I am not intentionally attempting to be read as saying two things.

The Republicans took an extremely obstructionist approach throughout the last 8 years. It's not black and white, but I think by and large the Democrats could credibly claim they were the adults in the room in terms of their willingness to actually govern.

If the Democrats adopt the obstructionist approach now, I think they lose the credibility that comes with willingness to compromise and govern. Perhaps the policy choices of the Trump administration will force them in to this. The obstructionist approach I think increases the chance that there will be a Republican response in kind if power is shifted back. I don't view that as payback, but expected outcome. You could of course reasonably say this would happen no matter what so it shouldn't factor in the strategy of the Democrats. I am not convinced it is a strategy that will work, because I think the Trump camp will find strength in increased partisan polarization. It's probably where we are headed though.

I didn't suggest any particular strategy for the Democrats, only that fear of payback is foolish given the Republicans' demonstrated propensity to obstruct no matter what. Obstruction may be less successful as an opposition stance for Democrats than it has been for Republicans, but trying to block bad policies is the higher moral ground; it would be foolish to adopt a policy of kissing Trump's ass in the vain hope that in four years' time the Republicans might just stop acting like Republicans.

That's the problem with the Republican situation now (well, one of them, anyway); they can't credibly offer to act reasonably any more. If they could, Obama would have gotten at least a couple of Republican votes for a health care plan that was practically the same goddamn plan that their own 2012 nominee implemented in Massachusetts.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think that's called "plausible deniability".

Ah, that's so 2016. Today we learned that its "alternative facts"
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I would not say mentally ill. One can be perfectly healthy mentally and still have a dreadful personality and be a terrible person.

But the specific ways in which he is dreadful and terrible bespeak two known mental illnesses: Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Sociopathy. That's not to say we amateurs can diagnose him. But if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flaps like a duck, there's no point in saying "not every water fowl is a duck." Maybe not. But this one sure seems it.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I would not say mentally ill. One can be perfectly healthy mentally and still have a dreadful personality and be a terrible person.

But the specific ways in which he is dreadful and terrible bespeak two known mental illnesses: Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Sociopathy. That's not to say we amateurs can diagnose him. But if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flaps like a duck, there's no point in saying "not every water fowl is a duck." Maybe not. But this one sure seems it.
That would describe more than a few US Presidents, though.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Your point?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I would not say mentally ill. One can be perfectly healthy mentally and still have a dreadful personality and be a terrible person.

But the specific ways in which he is dreadful and terrible bespeak two known mental illnesses: Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Sociopathy. That's not to say we amateurs can diagnose him. But if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flaps like a duck, there's no point in saying "not every water fowl is a duck." Maybe not. But this one sure seems it.
That would describe more than a few US Presidents, though.
Honestly, that's not the case.

Most anyone who rises to such high levels of power is going to have a fairly strong ego, some more than others, but that's not the same thing as narcissistic personality disorder. And pretty much anyone who is successful in the job of president is going to be someone who is pragmatic enough to do a great deal of horse-trading and compromise, even of cherished principles, some more than others and some more self-serving about it, but that's not the same thing as sociopathy. Both narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy are clinical terms with specific diagnostic criteria. As mousethief says, none of us is qualified to make that diagnosis, and most professionals in the field are cagey about making a long-distance diagnosis. Yet more than one mental health professional has been willing to tick off the ways that Trump seems to embody those clear and specific diagnostic criteria.

As has been said before: No: this is Not. Normal.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
I ended up hearing half of the inaugural address because I was stuck in commute traffic behind a stalled truck. I turned it off halfway through. It's bad enough that he trashes the previous presidents as insiders but he seems unaware of the previous life of the slogan "America First" before WWII as the slogan of the pro-Nazis in the United States.

About the only slight ray of hope is that some of his cabinet nominees have backed off from his statements. The one responsible for Science research says he's changed his mind about climate change.

A few Republican Senators seemed hesitant about shutting down ACA healthcare without a follow up plan. However they seemed to have caved to party discipline and we're now heading to a position where a new plan will emerge that no insurance company will want to support.

I'm hoping the Blue states will be able to support state level funded health care, perhaps as a multi state coalition like California, Oregon Washington that's large enough to cope with free-riders from red states with no coverage. I am looking forward to seeing how Trump voters who lose insurance and don't get jobs will feel in a few years. Probably they'll still be blaming Obama.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I am looking forward to seeing how Trump voters who lose insurance and don't get jobs will feel in a few years. Probably they'll still be blaming Obama.

Why not? They blame him for 9/11 and for the Recession.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm hoping the Blue states will be able to support state level funded health care, perhaps as a multi state coalition like California, Oregon Washington that's large enough to cope with free-riders from red states with no coverage.

Was reform of the ACA on Hillary's agenda? I ask as I heard a BBC report recently that had people saying their premiums doubled, in one case getting up to near $1,000/month. I could not afford that. I agree something needed to be done for the uninsured, but the model that got through seems to me to need some work (it seems to me sitting happily across the Pacific with free hospitals).
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
Oh reform of ACA was on Hilary's agenda. No one didn't think that the ACA didn't need adjustment. The Democrats claimed that the premiums were stabilizing after the first year. There's no questions that the insurance is not cheap. I was on it for 4 months and to get an approximation of my former employer insurance with my existing doctors, I was paying $900 a month for insurance with copay and a $5000 deductible on prescriptions.

It's important to note that the American Health Insurance prices are high, but you have to compare it will more national health insurance schemes which have much higher taxes. As a friend said, when he moved from Britain to the US his income taxes went down by 20% of his income but he had to pay that in medical insurance. There are lots of individual exceptions.

However without ACA or an equivalent, one is screwed if one is not in a job with Health insurance. ACA prevented that to a certain amount. What is coming with Trump is vague but doesn't look good.
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Like others have observed above, the TFO's anger against the press/the media is simply astounding. Now even Reuters reports on it, headline
quote:
White House vows to fight media 'tooth and nail' over Trump coverage
From the article:
quote:
On his first full day as president, Trump said he had a "running war" with the media [...]. "The point is not the crowd size. The point is the attacks and the attempt to delegitimize this president in one day. And we're not going to sit around and take it," Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said on "Fox News Sunday."
[Confused] [Confused]

Haven't they got other things to do?! This is nothing short of embarrassing! A smokescreen for inaction or wrong action, or simple incompetence in other areas? This is the sort of thing you tend to hear from dicatorships. - What on earth!?! [Disappointed]

[ 23. January 2017, 06:28: Message edited by: Wesley J ]
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Thanks Palimpsest; I appreciate the detailed and helpful reply. Makes sense. And I hadn't thought about the less taxes...

Throwing it out without a firm replacement in place seems foolhardy in the extreme...especially for those millions who did not have some form of health insurance who did not before. I can't imagine what is going through their minds.

---

And thanks Dafyd for the "dead cat" politics information. My mind still boggles.

[ 23. January 2017, 06:31: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Wes--

We're all supposed to live in Trump's reality, such as it is.
[Paranoid]

[ 23. January 2017, 06:34: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Wesley J: TFO?

[ 23. January 2017, 06:35: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
TFO = Tiny Fingered One, aka Trump.

This seems like a great opportunity for me to air a long-held grievance, which is that it would really improve the tone of the debate, and the impact of the arguments, if we could start referring to adversaries by their real names instead of demeaning sobriquets.

Doing so suggests you have nothing better than insults to attack with, which is surely not the case with Trump.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I think Trump is a bad man. He lies, he abuses, he bullies, he cheats.

The argument about mental illness; I think mousethief has it about right. I suppose one might argue that the personality disorders are the underlying causes of his badness. Something he got in his genes, something he picked up through a dysfunctional upbringing. Or they are the result of his bad behaviour creating and reinforcing these disorders. Nature, nurture, the morality of choices, they are all in play for all of us.

Don't think it matters. He's demonstrably a bad man and I suspect there will be more evidence of this. A bad man can do a lot of damage in any position of power. As we will find out.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:


This seems like a great opportunity for me to air a long-held grievance, which is that it would really improve the tone of the debate, and the impact of the arguments, if we could start referring to adversaries by their real names instead of demeaning sobriquets.


Newsflash: there is no debate. One side is making up shit and calling it fact.

We are way way beyond the point of trying to argue logically why this nonsense is wrong and we're deep into territory which is terrifyingly near fascism.

To take one example: Trump appears to be pushing forward with moving the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

It is impossible to imagine that there are not a large number of US diplomats telling him this is a very bad idea. Either he has fired them all or has decided that he isn't going to listen - either way, this bodes terribly for the chances of a just settlement in Israel-Palestine.

There a few tools left when we find ourselves out in the weeds like this. One of the few things is to point and laugh, point and laugh at the silly orange-faced buffoon.

The one thing we know for a fact is that Trump doesn't like ridicule.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The one thing we know for a fact is that Trump doesn't like ridicule.

Oh yeah, and he's really going to be irked by how we talk about him on SoF.

If the only response to the serious dangers we broadly agree on is to resort to name-calling, I think there's a problem.

Ridicule suggests he is stupid or incompetent. I don't think he's either, and cultivating such ideas is a great way of understimating him.

Plus ridiculing him is, by association, ridiculing his supporters. This feeds precisely the kind of division Trump and his policies thrive on.

The prophetic challenge of the hour is to overcome that kind of barrier, not help reinforce it.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
A comment on the Guardian nails it -

"And while we discuss how odious Trump is to even suggest this obvious lie ... he is busy selling ambassadorships through Trump Company. That is the beauty of a true con-artist, like a stage magician, he points to where he wants you to look, while the real action is elsewhere.

It will be like that day in, day out, and the media will follow. And we with them, always focussing on the decoy, and thinking him an idiot.

He is laughing all the way to the bank."

Indeed.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Oh yeah, and he's really going to be irked by how we talk about him on SoF.

If the only response to the serious dangers we broadly agree on is to resort to name-calling, I think there's a problem.

I don't. One of the big reasons that fascism never took a hold in 1930s Britain was ridicule. It's a powerful force.

quote:
Ridicule suggests he is stupid or incompetent. I don't think he's either, and cultivating such ideas is a great way of understimating him.
I don't think Chaplin's Great Dictator underestimated Hitler. If anything it just showed up his pomposity and ridiculousness.

quote:
Plus ridiculing him is, by association, ridiculing his supporters. This feeds precisely the kind of division Trump and his policies thrive on.
Don't care. If there is a division between Trumpism and The Truth, then I've no problem calling it.

quote:
The prophetic challenge of the hour is to overcome that kind of barrier, not help reinforce it.
I don't believe that shit. Now is not the time to be talking about a negotiated settlement with evil, now is the time to resist it.

Even in the smallest of ways.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Now is not the time to be talking about a negotiated settlement with evil, now is the time to resist it.

So you think Trump supporters are evil?
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't think Chaplin's Great Dictator underestimated Hitler. If anything it just showed up his pomposity and ridiculousness.

I don't think fascism was defeated merely by satire and lampooning. It was also defeated by tangible arugments (not to mention armed resistance). I've nothing against the former. It's the combination of the two I find depressing.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
So you think Trump supporters are evil?

I think they've been infected with an evil idea which is hard to impossible to shift with rational argument. Similar to fascism, naziism and the theology of the KKK.

But then I also believe that there are only a small number of people who are hardcore believers in Trumpism anyway, and that ridicule is more likely to win over those who sold their vote for a plate of imaginary beans.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
How many times have you been won over to an argument because your opponent ridiculed you?
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I don't think fascism was defeated merely by satire and lampooning. It was also defeated by tangible arugments (not to mention armed resistance). I've nothing against the former. It's the combination of the two I find depressing.

I didn't say anything about "merely". I absolutely believe that resistence is necessary to fight fascism, I have never said anything otherwise.

What absolutely doesn't work is trying to be reasonable with those who have lost all sense of reasonableness.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
The scope here is "serious debate".

The vast majority of us are against Trump.

There are recurring concerns about the Ship turning into an echo chamber.

There's nothing wrong with the occasional colourful insult in the course of debate, but making a systematic practice out of it, as some do, is not likely to attract a range of opinions. It just hastens the descent to a slanging match.

Slanging matches are fuel to the fire of Trump's diversionary tactics whereby the real, complicated policy issues go largely undiscussed.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
If you don't like the quality of the debate, use the door to the left of your screen. Logout and don't log back in.

Meantime, I'll do what I like within the rules of this discussion, thanks all the same.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
My initial criticism in respect of consistent use of insults to describe opponents wasn't even directed at you [Roll Eyes]

[ 23. January 2017, 08:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
I see, so you engage in a long chain of replies, say that something I believe in is destructive of discussion generally (and on this forum in particular) and then say it wasn't directed at me anyway.

Why does it matter who it was "directed at", you made a statement and I'm discussing it.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I commented; you replied.

You haven't convinced me that ridicule contributes to constructive debate.

Instead you invited me to stop reading. Seems like a great way to broaden the debate [Disappointed]

I haven't told you to stop posting in a particular fashion. You can do what you like within the rules.

But for what it's worth, as far as I'm concerned, the constant use of demeaning acronyms and the like to refer to the person one disagrees with weakens the arguments brought to bear in "serious debate", and the discussion amongst ourselves about the Trump presidency would be a lot better off without them, in much the same way as the election thread would have been better off without "Illary" and the like.

That is all.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
I think you are utterly wrong. That's all.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
That's incredibly fair. But I often use these boards as practice to refine my own arguments to take into RL.

Out there, we have actual fascists killing elected officials, Nazis shouting "Hail Trump", and the White House Press Secretary becoming indistinguishable from the former Iraqi Information Minister.

Reason only works on people amenable to reason. And the further Right (or Left) you go, the more pointless it becomes.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I often use these boards as practice to refine my own arguments to take into RL.

Refining your arguments or refining your powers of ridicule?

I think the latter belongs in Hell, which seems ideally suited to it.

[ 23. January 2017, 08:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Out there, we have actual fascists killing elected officials...

What? What news did I miss?

---

I share similar concerns to Eutychus [and thanks for the acronymn expansion]. But I can also ponder the futility of trying to reason with people far gone. But how many of those who voted for Trump are that far gone [mr cheesy made the point it was a small number of hardcore voters].

How do we engage with those who voted for Trump [or hard-right loony parties here] because of disillusionment, or poverty, or fear? Is ridicule the only way to reach these? I hope not. And I hope the inevitable disappointment which will come won't make them more disillusioned...or worse.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I often use these boards as practice to refine my own arguments to take into RL.

Refining your arguments or refining your powers of ridicule?

I think the latter belongs in Hell, which seems ideally suited to it.

Well, I think you'll find the answer to your question in the piece of text you quoted from me.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Out there, we have actual fascists killing elected officials...

What? What news did I miss?
This?
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Thanks. Sorry, I was thinking of events in the US.

[ 23. January 2017, 09:08: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
But it's not even good ridicule right now. It's cheap insults.

Good ridicule points out the things that are ridiculous about Trump's rhetoric, Trump's policies, Trump's flaws in personality and how they affect his capacity to function as President.

Resorting to comments about the size of his fingers is just cheap. Comments like that don't enhance an argument, they frankly suggest a lack of any kind of argument. If someone I was arguing against resorted to that kind of thing, I'd have increased confidence that they were unable to meaningfully refute my position.

[ 23. January 2017, 09:38: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
And given some of the outrage about Trump's own behaviour in mocking people (such as imitating a disabled person), what does mocking his appearance do other than affirm his own tactics?

That's not what winning an argument looks like. That's losing the war.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Ditto re T's fingers. That's something he can't help. And, frankly, I wasn't able to see the size issue until recently. I was more focused on how he used his hands with his talking.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If someone I was arguing against resorted to that kind of thing, I'd have increased confidence that they were unable to meaningfully refute my position.

It isn't possible to "meaningfully refute" a position that is a combination of lies and propaganda. How do you engage with a person who says that he didn't actually say something which is clearly recorded on camera saying? How do you engage with someone who says that the thing millions of people saw wasn't true and that the "alternative facts" are this other thing?

This isn't politics-as-normal, this is 1984.

[ 23. January 2017, 09:45: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
So the dichotomy is reason or ridicule?
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If someone I was arguing against resorted to that kind of thing, I'd have increased confidence that they were unable to meaningfully refute my position.

It isn't possible to "meaningfully refute" a position that is a combination of lies and propaganda.
Of course it is.

You painstakingly, dispassionately, and exhaustively document those lies and propaganda.

(In doing so, you might find your own tactics and assumptions about the truth need some refining and correction).

Do this enough, and your opponent's position becomes ridiculous on the basis of facts, not invective.

You will never beat Trump or his fans, especially his internet fans, by trying to out-insult them.

[ 23. January 2017, 09:51: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Though I don't think reason is likely to work with Trump himself. (Possibly with some of the people around him.)

It might be possible for him to grasp a bit of one truth, if someone very carefully and simply explains it to him. Like "Being president is a 24/7 job"--which I don't think he gets. (After their first sit-down, Obama said T didn't realize how much is involved.) Or "People will die, if they lose insurance". Or "Let's walk through this section of town, and meet a few people". Or "Kids *do* learn things at public {/state} schools". Or even "People will like you better, if you are kind to them".
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I've read at least one commentator from Italy saying that it was only when the left stopped focussing on how silly Berlusconi was and made a serious attempt to attack his policies that they got rid of him.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
I've reached the stage where I turn off in every way when I see the meaningless game of claims, even when one side is actually honest and rational. PMQT in parliament, the Kremlin in the person of Putin or his amusingly consummate spokesman on BBC24's Hard Talk; any confrontation with a Machiavel loses, a draw is a loss.

I therefore feel that the answer includes ignoring self-serving power, never engaging with it directly, in 'debate'. Just keep speaking truth to its constituency in an Eastern, face saving, dialectical way. Making this up as I go along that could be applied to the powers too: agree with them by understanding most charitably where they are coming from, identify with them, empathize, unite with them AND suggest the perspective of truth, expand the picture. Like Percy Blakeny, The Scarlet Pimpernel, in dealing with the appalling Citizen Chauvelin. With honour, respect, without threat to their position. Aimed at actually keeping them in power and softening them.

Know what I mean?

Totally naive and incoherent as ever I'm sure.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And given some of the outrage about Trump's own behaviour in mocking people (such as imitating a disabled person), what does mocking his appearance do other than affirm his own tactics?


Yeah, I've never liked that either. And it's not that ridiculing his fingers specifically insults Trump, it's that it implicity ridicules everyone who was born with fingers like that.

Slate.com, which has pretty much gone berzerk since the election, had an article a few days back about how Trump's signature proves that he's got some sort of horrific personality defect. Well, I took a look at the article, and thought the signature bore a pronounced resemblance to my own. If I wasn't already anti-Trump, that article would certainly have made me reluctant to join up with the people who are against him.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Aye, it's not exactly loving our enemies is it?
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If someone I was arguing against resorted to that kind of thing, I'd have increased confidence that they were unable to meaningfully refute my position.

It isn't possible to "meaningfully refute" a position that is a combination of lies and propaganda.
Of course it is.

You painstakingly, dispassionately, and exhaustively document those lies and propaganda.

(In doing so, you might find your own tactics and assumptions about the truth need some refining and correction).

Do this enough, and your opponent's position becomes ridiculous on the basis of facts, not invective.

You will never beat Trump or his fans, especially his internet fans, by trying to out-insult them.

It may be possible to meaningfully refute a position based on lies and propaganda but these positions are often cunningly contrived to include some grain of truth and that is often the focus of the propaganda. Consequentially, you have to put the "grain of truth" in its context so that the whole piece can be analysed and refuted but that is often a lengthy process and most people get bored a) after about 20 seconds or b) once it is obvious that you are destroying the situation that has been created for them, especially one that fits their circumstances and prejudices.

People aren't thick, they just have Dead Horses to drag around. FWIW mine are the UKs supposedly independent nuclear deterrent, the DWP, German silver/grey cars and golf.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
But it isn't just about trump. If a nation has a person of such obvious grotesque deformity of character as at all popular, then it is very ill.

What is the cure for almost half of Americans looking at such a bizarre individual to carry their hopes? Is it inequality, loss of hope, poverty, too much pursuit of hedonistic goals, too many celebrity sex tapes, too much fast food, too much nation under god, too mny bombs, too much what?? Not enough what? This trump guy is the symbol for America for at least 4 years. What if problem with trump is what problems he symbolizes not just him? Whining and worrying about one creep won't fix it.

[ 23. January 2017, 12:23: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Based on the evidence in the public domain I think it is reasonable to assess that Trump is a bad man. But bad men have been elected President before. And I suppose the general mistrust of politians leads to the conclusion that they are generally self-serving, untrustworthy, bad. Trump is not a politician. 'So let's give him a chance'.

Therefore I think it is true that his supporters will do just that, see how he works out. Their minds will be changed by disappointment and disillusionment.

So I guess the right sort of dialogue - if you want it - with Trump supporters is to ask them what they think he will deliver, and which policies will help to achieve that. Then you have established a basis for assessment. If you can't get that far, there isn't any basis for dialogue anyway.

So far as the majority of Shipmates are concerned, he's a walking disaster waiting to happen. And from a post above, I get the feeling that romanlion might feel the same. He's a Libertarian voter I think. Most of the rest of us, US and globally are Democrats, or social democrats, or socialists. So it is probably inevitable that this thread has become a lament, or a moanfest, or a critique of a nasty man. Maybe we should shift further discussion, or at least some of it, to Hell. I'll think about that.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Based on the evidence in the public domain I think it is reasonable to assess that Trump is a bad man. But bad men have been elected President before. And I suppose the general mistrust of politians leads to the conclusion that they are generally self-serving, untrustworthy, bad. Trump is not a politician. 'So let's give him a chance'.

Therefore I think it is true that his supporters will do just that, see how he works out. Their minds will be changed by disappointment and disillusionment.

So I guess the right sort of dialogue - if you want it - with Trump supporters is to ask them what they think he will deliver, and which policies will help to achieve that. Then you have established a basis for assessment. If you can't get that far, there isn't any basis for dialogue anyway.

So far as the majority of Shipmates are concerned, he's a walking disaster waiting to happen. And from a post above, I get the feeling that romanlion might feel the same. He's a Libertarian voter I think. Most of the rest of us, US and globally are Democrats, or social democrats, or socialists. So it is probably inevitable that this thread has become a lament, or a moanfest, or a critique of a nasty man. Maybe we should shift further discussion, or at least some of it, to Hell. I'll think about that.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Based on the evidence in the public domain I think it is reasonable to assess that Trump is a bad man. But bad men have been elected President before.

Based on the evidence, the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is a large man. But large men have safely ridden in lifeboats before.
 
Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on :
 
quote:
People aren't thick, they just have Dead Horses to drag around. FWIW mine are the UKs supposedly independent nuclear deterrent, the DWP, German silver/grey cars and golf.
Are we twins separated at birth, Sioni Sais?
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've just heard a woman on LBC proclaiming that she doesn't care about the lies because Trump shows that he cares about the people in the middle states, the marches were all done by the rich people on the coasts, and the media should stop attacking him for his lies.

I have a feeling that the phone-in producer is deliberately choosing people who are going to come across as wrong.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Sorry. Explanation required. I considered putting an explanation, but thought it would confuse things - should have asterisked it.

It is a phone-in station with presenters of a variety of standpoints, based in London, but spread from there across the country. It often has calls from taxi drivers of right wing views. Not all the presenters share their opinions. I only listen to those who don't. (Don't want to risk throwing the radio out when Farage is on.)
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I've just heard a woman on LBC proclaiming that she doesn't care about the lies because Trump shows that he cares about the people in the middle states, the marches were all done by the rich people on the coasts, and the media should stop attacking him for his lies.

I have a feeling that the phone-in producer is deliberately choosing people who are going to come across as wrong.

This is why he must be embraced as I said above, included, moved on with.
 
Posted by Rocinante (# 18541) on :
 
If Trump really does have Narcissistic Personality Disorder (as seems likely), then we should not expect anything he says to be true, consistent or even make sense. It will be utterly pointless to try to "catch him out" in lying, as he will just say whatever makes him feel good at any given time. He will see this as something that he is entitled to do. NPD, I'm told, is incurable and not really treatable.

Other people, to him, will either be extensions of himself (his immediate family) or puppets to be manipulated by a mixture of punishment and reward. It doesn't matter how they treat him, if they argue or flatter or whatever. The NPD sufferer does not see other people as fully human. If you massage his ego and do exactly what he wants, you may get him to do something for you, but he will just as quickly turn against you.

We can't change Trump, no-one can. We need to support the people around him, particularly the White House journalists who are going to have a very rough time over the next four years. We have to back them in shining a light on Trump's actions, and hold them to account if they show signs of being sucked into his parallel universe. They are putting themselves at risk by getting anywhere near Trump.

They haven't got off to a brilliant start by being drawn into a meaningless slap-fight about crowd sizes, while Trump and his cronies get on with the business of turning the U.S. into an extension of Trump corp. Personal material gain is the overriding objective of the NPD sufferer, Trump will seek to asset-strip as much of the U.S. as he can get away with.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
And no I'm not talking appeasement or Niemolleresque silence, I'm talking subversive love in full awareness of all the singular i.e. un- and anti-plural, the illiberal populism, the authoritarianism, attacking the press for reporting the truth, the beginnings of fascism. This does have apocalyptic Beast and his Graham potential.

I suggest we need loyal opposition. Patriotic, united opposition. Opposition as within Lincoln's team of rivals.

Sacrificial not party opposition. Above all peaceful, calm, resolute. The starting point is Dr. King, but we have to go further. We have to do greater works.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:

We can't change Trump, no-one can. We need to support the people around him, particularly the White House journalists who are going to have a very rough time over the next four years. We have to back them in shining a light on Trump's actions, and hold them to account if they show signs of being sucked into his parallel universe. They are putting themselves at risk by getting anywhere near Trump.

This.

I expect Trump will use every inch of power he is legally and illegally entitled to to punish his "enemies". First on the list will be media who insist on reporting facts. Others will include Congresspeople who dare to vote or speak out against his agenda. They will need every bit of support we can muster. One place I plan to start is to observe which media are taking the hard tact of speaking truth to power and then resolving to purchase subscriptions. We need to make sure these media outlets survive in what will prove to be very very hard times for truth-tellers.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
OK, you win. St. Paul was right, Christian rebuke is effective! Here and now, I eschew the term 'Mango Mussolini' forever. I will cling only to the terms that have been excreted by the man himself from his own wee pursed lips. "Tiny Fingers" still solid gold, and "Pussy Grabber." Perhaps "No Tax Return"?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
OK, you win. St. Paul was right, Christian rebuke is effective! Here and now, I eschew the term 'Mango Mussolini' forever. I will cling only to the terms that have been excreted by the man himself from his own wee pursed lips. "Tiny Fingers" still solid gold, and "Pussy Grabber." Perhaps "No Tax Return"?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Can I use Mango Mussolini then? Not a Christian, no love in me, hee hee hee.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
I doubt that getting excited over this will help much, but I fired off a message just to irritate them and make me feel better:

I look forward to placing many more orders with LL Bean in the future, but not before I read an unequivocal public statement affirming that your company's board dissociates itself absolutely from any real or apparent endorsement by or of D. Trump and that no funds originating in the company's revenue are or will be used to support that individual's political or other exploits.

That's my grumpy deed for the day done.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And given some of the outrage about Trump's own behaviour in mocking people (such as imitating a disabled person), what does mocking his appearance do other than affirm his own tactics?

That's not what winning an argument looks like. That's losing the war.

To an extent you're right. And the more ludicrous aspects of his appearance which he could help, if he wanted, shouldn't tell negatively or positively where his actual work is concerned.

Except - if he can't even take expert opinion on a good hairdo; well, we can only hope that's not an indication of how little he cares for expert opinion over his own, in more important issues!

However, one of the aspects of his mocking the disabled person - or indeed many of the folks he has attacked - was the inequality of the relationship. To watch a fantastically rich, powerful and famous person using the public political platform to mock John Doe isn't just about two guys poking fun at each other. It's about power and wealth grinding the heel into the face of the non-privileged, non-powerful ordinary person.

Politicians, royalty, the famous etc, have, since time immemorial, always been lampooned. It's what happens when you put yourself on the biggest bloody pedestal in the world and shout 'Look at me, I'm brilliant and everyone that came before me is shit. And if you don't like it you can go to hell, 'cos there's nothing you can do about it!'.

Sadly, Trump does not appear to have taken to this part of his role in the gracious, good-humoured, thick-skinned way that a rational, intelligent person would.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Can I use Mango Mussolini then? Not a Christian, no love in me, hee hee hee.

Do, please.

The PG in Chief assures us, repeatedly, that he is smart. Very smart! I believe him like Gospel. Everything he does is intentional and wise. His orange skin tone, deliberate. The hair, OMG. Very expensive, you have no idea, completely planned and painfully woven together by voles in Argentina under sterile conditions. The too-long ties, a sartorial decision carefully considered. The things his press secretary says -- inserted into the poor mans mouth for disgorging.

He is smart! This must be true. Unless of course the smart is one of those alternative facts.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
I doubt that getting excited over this will help much, but I fired off a message just to irritate them and make me feel better:

I look forward to placing many more orders with LL Bean in the future, but not before I read an unequivocal public statement affirming that your company's board dissociates itself absolutely from any real or apparent endorsement by or of D. Trump and that no funds originating in the company's revenue are or will be used to support that individual's political or other exploits.

That's my grumpy deed for the day done.

Wrong target
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He is smart! This must be true. Unless of course the smart is one of those alternative facts.

It depends a bit on your definition of "smart", but I think you would be very wrong to underestimate him.

He may not be very intelligent, but he is cunning and excellent at wriggling; he's managed to stay (more or less) ahead of the law and get himself elected POTUS. Don't be fooled by the persona. There's more to him than that.
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
@ Rocinante. An excellent contribution! Probably the best way to deal with Trump is through containment, i.e. isolate him in his own cabinet by means of reason. Reason won't win everyone over, as there are some members who are mad as in frothing-at-the-mouth mad; nevertheless, the hearings do suggest that some people may be reachable.

Ultimately, I really worry about how even a favourable scenario, such as an impeachment, would work out. His henchmen (and -women) are crafting a narrative of a dishonest press in cahoots with the Evil Establishment (i.a. Congress). If Congress tries to remove him, this would be proof that Trump was right, especially if it happens before he loses sufficient support amongst his erstwhile voters. Some of his first acts of office look as if they are populist moves designed to shore up his popularity in a way that will make him difficult to touch, and it may be a while before the horrible reality of his policies becomes difficult to ignore. By this time he may have caused lasting damage and maybe even imperilled world peace.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
To take one example: Trump appears to be pushing forward with moving the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

It seems to be asserted that Trump is a narcissist who craves attention and worship. He indeed displays some of the characteristics of some of the most extremely dysfunctional Roman emperors. If he does not get the attention he craves, he will generate it by doing something sufficiently outrageous, even if just for the helluvit, without any thought to its consequences. Moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem would fit the bill perfectly.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Though I don't think reason is likely to work with Trump himself. (Possibly with some of the people around him.)

It might be possible for him to grasp a bit of one truth, if someone very carefully and simply explains it to him. Like "Being president is a 24/7 job"--which I don't think he gets. (After their first sit-down, Obama said T didn't realize how much is involved.) Or "People will die, if they lose insurance". Or "Let's walk through this section of town, and meet a few people". Or "Kids *do* learn things at public {/state} schools". Or even "People will like you better, if you are kind to them".

As others have noted above, all this does not matter in the mind of a small, narcissist mind. What matters to him is that he is applauded by his fans. Only when that stops will he start listening. It will take time to link a body count to him and expose him for the monster he is in the minds of his current post-truth supporters, but alas, it will take time.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
That will never stop. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Amin are STILL missed by people who never suffered under them. They were adored by people who did to the end. We're that kind of monkey.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Based on the evidence in the public domain I think it is reasonable to assess that Trump is a bad man. But bad men have been elected President before.

Based on the evidence, the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is a large man. But large men have safely ridden in lifeboats before.
Now that is an interesting parallel. Baron V H is one of the nastiest pieces of work in fiction.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
I can't think of an equal, let alone worse. Not even Lord Foul.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A discussion of the PG's inveterate untruthfulness. And another, this one a free click. I see here the news media adapting to the blatant and not even consistent prevarication. There probably should be a column, daily if necessary, summarizing the mendacities of each day.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There probably should be a column, daily if necessary, summarizing the mendacities of each day.

I should think that Rachel Maddow on MSNBC would be up to it.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Brenda--

"PG" as a name for Trump: Definition, please?

Thx.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
The Pipsqueak God?
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
P***y Grabber, I assume.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Another item for our list of "don'ts":

Don't talk about blowing up the White House, not even in jest or metaphorically. (Looking at *you*, Madonna. She said, in her speech at a march, that she wanted to do that. Now, she's cleaning up the mess, via social media, and says it's a metaphor.)

It could get you arrested. And it makes it hard to listen to anything else you say.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't suggest any particular strategy for the Democrats, only that fear of payback is foolish given the Republicans' demonstrated propensity to obstruct no matter what. Obstruction may be less successful as an opposition stance for Democrats than it has been for Republicans, but trying to block bad policies is the higher moral ground; it would be foolish to adopt a policy of kissing Trump's ass in the vain hope that in four years' time the Republicans might just stop acting like Republicans.

The high ground is not about blocking bad policy. Which ground to occupy is going to be a choice between accommodation where there is shared interest with Trump and complete opposition. Those advocating accommodation will face stiff resistance and have legitimate fear for their re-electability.

The complete opposition approach throws governing out the window and legitimizes the Republican approach. I think the Republicans were successful at it because they could much more effectively channel the narrowly focused anger of the Tea Party which at its core is anti-governmental. So there is not something inherently conflicting in their message. Government is the problem to them, so debilitating it does not pose an existential quandary.

So this is not about payback or kissing ass in my estimation. Hopefully I am not extending this conversation beyond its shelf life.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There probably should be a column, daily if necessary, summarizing the mendacities of each day.

I should think that Rachel Maddow on MSNBC would be up to it.
Then there was Molly Ivins. Ten years since she died, and I still miss her. I think she would have enjoyed donald fart. Favourite quote: "If his IQ were any lower, they'd have to water him twice a day".
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
P***y Grabber, I assume.

Yes, that's it. All denigratory references shall be ones that he dropped from his own teeny fishlike lips. Never again shall I refer to him as the Mango Mussolini, or Mr. Cheeto Head.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't suggest any particular strategy for the Democrats, only that fear of payback is foolish given the Republicans' demonstrated propensity to obstruct no matter what. Obstruction may be less successful as an opposition stance for Democrats than it has been for Republicans, but trying to block bad policies is the higher moral ground; it would be foolish to adopt a policy of kissing Trump's ass in the vain hope that in four years' time the Republicans might just stop acting like Republicans.

The high ground is not about blocking bad policy. Which ground to occupy is going to be a choice between accommodation where there is shared interest with Trump and complete opposition. Those advocating accommodation will face stiff resistance and have legitimate fear for their re-electability.

The complete opposition approach throws governing out the window and legitimizes the Republican approach. I think the Republicans were successful at it because they could much more effectively channel the narrowly focused anger of the Tea Party which at its core is anti-governmental. So there is not something inherently conflicting in their message. Government is the problem to them, so debilitating it does not pose an existential quandary.

So this is not about payback or kissing ass in my estimation. Hopefully I am not extending this conversation beyond its shelf life.

Well it appears that your estimation has changed, then, since in your original formulation it was exactly about payback. Does this sound familiar?
quote:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
Given the experience of the last eight years this is still a farcical warning, since Democrats can have no reasonable expectation of future cooperation in any case.

But I think we've gone around this mulberry bush a sufficient number of times. You seem unwilling to either defend or abandon that statement, or even acknowledge that you made it at all, so I suppose there's really no reason for me to attempt to discuss it. We'll just attribute it to "Anon." and let it go.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
It seems to be asserted that Trump is a narcissist who craves attention and worship. He indeed displays some of the characteristics of some of the most extremely dysfunctional Roman emperors. If he does not get the attention he craves, he will generate it by doing something sufficiently outrageous, even if just for the helluvit, without any thought to its consequences. Moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem would fit the bill perfectly.

Or it could have been that, having delcared himself "very neutral" on the ststus of Jerusalem(which was probably the most pro-Palestinian statement ever made by someone who eventually became president, though that's not saying much), he was promptly informed that he had ticked off an influential lobby group, and made amends by reversing himself over to the most extrmeme poistion on the other end.

As another poster and I were discussing some time back, the former Canadian PM Joe Clark also promised to move his country's embassy to Jerusalem back in the late 70s. Like most everything else about his premiership, that did not end well.

[ 24. January 2017, 02:27: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."

Stalin would be proud.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
mt--

He chose that day? I heard him say, during the inauguration (IIRC), that there'd be a patriotic day, but nothing about it being *that* day. Even for him, that's pretty darn brazen.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Interesting idea:

"The Cherokee Nation Is Entitled to a Delegate in Congress. But Will They Finally Send One? To deal with a Trump administration, the tribal nation might now want to use that 200-year-old treaty right." (Yes magazine)

Per the article: If this were implemented, the delegate might be a Republican--a good many Cherokees are. But the delegate would be there in Congress, on site, and able to advocate for Native American issues. And the person would likely not be pro-Trump. The Choctaw nation has a similar right, but a bit different.

BTW, Yes magazine specializes in positive and creative ways to handle situations. It also has a good many articles on Trump, the marches, etc.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."

Stalin would be proud.

So his inauguration is somehow different and more special than all the inaugurations of his predecessors? Is that seriously what he's saying?
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I heard on the BBC R4 'Today' programme that DT has been going on about how he really won the popular vote, which was distorted by illegals voting again. Or still.
Can't be a loser, can he?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Ok. I found verification at The Daily Beast. He really did choose Jan. 20th. The "proclamation" will be published tomorrow (Tuesday). But a journalist spotted it today, in the Federal Register. At the end of the Daily Beast article, there's a link to the Fed Reg.

Will we be expected to burn incense to Caesar next?
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."

Stalin would be proud.

So his inauguration is somehow different and more special than all the inaugurations of his predecessors? Is that seriously what he's saying?
Of course. I'm sure he'd tell you himself that he is the most patriotic and devoted American ever.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re "day of patriotic devotion" declaration:

Turns out you can't read it directly on the Federal Register site, until it's published on Tuesday.

But you can read/download it now, as this PDF. I skimmed it. From what I can see, it doesn't say that it will be every year--but that's probably the intent.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:


Per the article: If this were implemented, the delegate might be a Republican--a good many Cherokees are. But the delegate would be there in Congress, on site, and able to advocate for Native American issues. And the person would likely not be pro-Trump. The Choctaw nation has a similar right, but a bit different.


Even if this happened, it might have a limited effect because (as I understand it) the delegate would be non-voting like those for DC and IIRC PR.

It'd be quite an impressive thing to do, but I doubt it would stop the oil pipeline in and of itself.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."

Stalin would be proud.

I don't think Stalin would have had the Christian language. Which makes it a whole lot scarier.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:


As another poster and I were discussing some time back, the former Canadian PM Joe Clark also promised to move his country's embassy to Jerusalem back in the late 70s. Like most everything else about his premiership, that did not end well.

In case this needs reiterating, several countries have Consulate-General in Jerusalem including the USA and the UK. I don't know about the USA's, but the British C-G is in East Jerusalem and was there from before the 1967 war which annexed East Jersualem. It operates as a consular and diplomatic base between the UK and the Palestinian Authority (and, actually, anyone else who happens to be in East Jerusalem).

To move the Embassy to Israel is to tacitly support the Israeli narrative that they have united Jersualem and have authority over the whole city - which is currently considered occupied land. Doing that means that any idea of nationhood for the Palestinians is finished (at least in the minds of Trump and the USA), which probably means that the chances of peace in Israel-Palestine are finished. In the scariest scenarios, the Israeli army can (further) clear large areas of the West Bank with absolutely no international consequences.

I apologise if everyone already knows this.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
mr. cheesy--

Yes, they'd be non-voting. Sorry. But that is in the article.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Fascist tendencies are showing. I've just finished watching 'The Man in the High Castle Season 2' and there are eerie parallels with alternative facts, overt patriotism, etc. Plus the personal sense that the US has lurched into an alternative time line.

BTW, Season 2 is highly recommended.

[ 24. January 2017, 09:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:


As another poster and I were discussing some time back, the former Canadian PM Joe Clark also promised to move his country's embassy to Jerusalem back in the late 70s. Like most everything else about his premiership, that did not end well.

In case this needs reiterating, several countries have Consulate-General in Jerusalem including the USA and the UK. I don't know about the USA's, but the British C-G is in East Jerusalem and was there from before the 1967 war which annexed East Jersualem. It operates as a consular and diplomatic base between the UK and the Palestinian Authority (and, actually, anyone else who happens to be in East Jerusalem).

To move the Embassy to Israel is to tacitly support the Israeli narrative that they have united Jersualem and have authority over the whole city - which is currently considered occupied land. Doing that means that any idea of nationhood for the Palestinians is finished (at least in the minds of Trump and the USA), which probably means that the chances of peace in Israel-Palestine are finished. In the scariest scenarios, the Israeli army can (further) clear large areas of the West Bank with absolutely no international consequences.

I apologise if everyone already knows this.

Just to be clear, I am aware that moving the embassy to Jerusalem would be a pro-Israeli move. It was Trump's original proclamation(ie. neutrality on the status of Jerusalem), that I characterized as being (relatively) pro-Palestinian. His current embassy position, I think, is atonmement for the earlier heresy.

And yes, Joe Clark's '79 plans to move the Canadian embassy were widely recognized as pro-Israel as well. I think he was trying to get votes in a couple of ridings where support for Israel was strong.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."

Stalin would be proud.

I know it's maybe not quite the same thing (forgive my ignorance), but I thought July 4th was the big patriotic day for Americans? Or is that to come in a distant second to Trump Day now?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."

Stalin would be proud.

I don't think Stalin would have had the Christian language. Which makes it a whole lot scarier.
I dunno. He certainly had the language; he was at one time a monk, or at least a monk wannabe. And he was not averse to using religious language ("Holy Mother Russia") to promote patriotism during WW2.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?

The disease they caught is being Western and middle-class.

And seriously, the USA has caught this worse than a lot of countries. The incomes of average Americans have stagnated badly. Our own former Prime Minsiter, Paul Keating, noted that over the last 20 years Australian incomes have increased 50 per cent and American incomes have increased.... zero.

Personally I think people faced with this problem were wrong to conclude that Trump would provide a cure as promised. But the disease is very, very real.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?

The disease they caught is being Western and middle-class.

And seriously, the USA has caught this worse than a lot of countries. The incomes of average Americans have stagnated badly. Our own former Prime Minsiter, Paul Keating, noted that over the last 20 years Australian incomes have increased 50 per cent and American incomes have increased.... zero.

Personally I think people faced with this problem were wrong to conclude that Trump would provide a cure as promised. But the disease is very, very real.

And what do these middle-class Americans, who have had little or no wage increases in decades do? They hand more power and the presidency over to the rich..

I can't say much about the British, we do just the same thing.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?

The disease they caught is being Western and middle-class.

And seriously, the USA has caught this worse than a lot of countries. The incomes of average Americans have stagnated badly. Our own former Prime Minsiter, Paul Keating, noted that over the last 20 years Australian incomes have increased 50 per cent and American incomes have increased.... zero.

Personally I think people faced with this problem were wrong to conclude that Trump would provide a cure as promised. But the disease is very, very real.

And what do these middle-class Americans, who have had little or no wage increases in decades do? They hand more power and the presidency over to the rich..

I can't say much about the British, we do just the same thing.

Well exactly, I just said, I think they were wrong to conclude Trump was any kind of solution. But that wasn't the question. The question was about what people were unhappy about.

Looking at it in that context, it's no wonder that protectionism sells. Globalisation means that the rich employers take their money and their jobs overseas, to places where labour is cheaper. The employers are happy because they cut costs. The new employees are happy.

It's the former employees, who weren't nearly as mobile as the money, that get left out of the bounty. It's far easier for an American company to go set up a factory in... Guatemala than it is for an American factory worker to go live in Guatemala.

Trump promises to drag the jobs back to the USA. His ability to deliver on that promise is another thing entirely, but that's the attractive promise.
 
Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mt--

He chose that day? I heard him say, during the inauguration (IIRC), that there'd be a patriotic day, but nothing about it being *that* day. Even for him, that's pretty darn brazen.

It's not that different from what other presidents have done:

snopes
 
Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

They hand more power and the presidency over to the rich

Given the way US elections work, was there another choice? Trump and Clinton are both in that category.

I'm not sure people think Trump is going to solve the problems; more that he'll be a wrecking ball. Why people want that would require an essay. It's not just about economics, and it's not that all Trump voters are racists or misogynists or stupid in spite of the dominant narrative.

Watching the media and authoritarian left reaction to this election has been like watching an exercise in willful ignorance.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mt--

He chose that day? I heard him say, during the inauguration (IIRC), that there'd be a patriotic day, but nothing about it being *that* day. Even for him, that's pretty darn brazen.

It's not that different from what other presidents have done:

snopes

Great find. Your fact-checking diligence is worth its weight in gold.
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Looking at it in that context, it's no wonder that protectionism sells. Globalisation means that the rich employers take their money and their jobs overseas, to places where labour is cheaper. The employers are happy because they cut costs. The new employees are happy.

It's the former employees, who weren't nearly as mobile as the money, that get left out of the bounty. It's far easier for an American company to go set up a factory in... Guatemala than it is for an American factory worker to go live in Guatemala.

Trump promises to drag the jobs back to the USA. His ability to deliver on that promise is another thing entirely, but that's the attractive promise.

But let's play that out a little more. So if he brings these jobs back to the USA, what will happen? Well, the reason the jobs were sent overseas was not because the companies wanted to do favors for Guatemala (or wherever), but because things could be made cheaper there. If the jobs are brought back to the USA, then the price of those products must go up. In other words, inflation. To keep the new, higher priced products competitive, the President plans tariffs. The point of tariffs is not that the producer is going to swallow the cost. Oh, no. The producer will raise prices on the imported goods to cover the tariff, so the price of imported goods goes up.

So the Trump plan is to drive up prices of both domestic and imported goods, triggering inflation. The American consumer (who presumably will not get an equivalent raise in pay) will then have less "buying power." Not everybody will be worse off, of course, because those new jobs will presumably be going to people who don't have jobs now, so their "buying power" will increase. So it isn't a total loss, but it will not be the great boon either as we brace for higher prices on top of stagnant wages.

However, the tariff scheme does have a neat twist to it that a politician would love: the tariff money goes to the government and, ultimately, the people paying that tariff will be the American consumer. It actually works like a tax on people without it being called a tax or even appearing to be a tax. Trump can then declare that he is "lowering" taxes and offset that with the money coming in from tariffs (paid by the American consumer). The difference is that paying taxes can sometimes be avoided (as Trump himself does) but paying higher prices because of tariffs cannot be so side-stepped. As such, the taxpayer, while apparently getting a "tax cut," could end up paying more to the government through higher product prices from tariffs.

Okay, major disclaimer here: I am not an economist and possibly everything I just wrote is woefully wrong because of some factor that economists know that I don't. I'm just saying that the above is the way it looks like to me pending getting further information.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Yes, the day of patriotic worship is nothing to get excited about. Presidents do this all the time, it is a one-shot and has nothing to do with national holidays (which involve giving workers the day off and calls for legislation).

IMO parsing the PG's statements for policy or meaning is a waste of energy. What he says from day to day is not consistent with anything else he has said at any other time. Wait until tomorrow and something new will be said. It has been snake oil from the outset. The number of people who voted for him, assuring themselves that he would only do what they dreamed of (and without considering how this would be possible) is very large. One of the great sadnesses of this political cycle is the revelation of how stupid the voting public really is.

[ 24. January 2017, 14:42: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
and it's not that all Trump voters are racists or misogynists or stupid in spite of the dominant narrative.

But all Trump voters had to ignore or justify all the racism and misogyny coming from Trump, and that is not nothing.
They also had to ignore all the lies*, lack of any coherent plan** and the fact that he has the self-control of an emotionally-stunted pre-teen with daddy issues.

Yes, there were legitimate concerns the electorate has that are not being addressed. Saying the left are the only ones ignoring this is ridiculous.
Trump will do nothing to solve his base's problems. Doesn't take any great political or economic mind to figure this out.

*His porkies were worse and more numerous than Clinton's.
**His economic plan, one of the few things he outlined, would be disastrous for his bas of voters.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But all Trump voters had to ignore or justify all the racism and misogyny coming from Trump, and that is not nothing.

I know several fairly smart, conservative women who were happy to dismiss his "locker room talk" as something that "all men do". They dismissed any thought of a difference between men in locker rooms having crude discussions about the sexual desirability and availability of various women, and men in locker rooms talking about using their authority and prestige to coerce women into sex.

They also latch on to Trump's claims about his Mar-a-Logo club as proof that he's not a racist, and so dismiss most of the racist environment surrounding him as "well, that's not him".

These aren't all white women, either: I know a couple of black women and a couple of white women with black husbands who fall in to this category.

They liked Trump's soundbites about reducing red tape for small business, and they support his protectionism and stance on illegal immigration (because rule of law and American exceptionalism).

But mostly they voted for him because he is supporting "pro-life" policies, whereas Clinton supports a woman's right to choose an abortion.

And they like Mike Pence.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
From across the pond, that's my reading as well. Trump's "conversion" to a pro-life position was thought as more important than the negative features.

More extended discussion on that point might be more appropriate to Dead Horses.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
He would have said anything, and has. People believed a selection of what they wanted to believe. The rest has been dismissed as unimportant, or 'he won't really take my healthcare' or some such. It was all a con, a slick fraud, and more than one conservative has realized that you can't fool all the people all of the time.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Forgot to add, there is video of him admitting that he urged one of his mistresses to get an abortion. His positions are purely a matter of his own convenience, from moment to moment. They have no meaning.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Forgot to add, there is video of him admitting that he urged one of his mistresses to get an abortion. His positions are purely a matter of his own convenience, from moment to moment. They have no meaning.

Sure. These people are under no illusions that Trump is the kind of man they'd like their daughters to bring home, but it's a question of what is likely.

What Trump thinks is irrelevant: what matters is what Trump will do, and they feel confident that Trump will appoint anti-abortion judges who will allow various states' attempts to restrict abortion. They know he doesn't have strong convictions, but they know he is standing next to someone who does, and is likely to go along with it.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They also had to ignore all the lies*, lack of any coherent plan** ....

Brexit, anyone? Or right-wing nut job party down here, whose vote is apparently increasing?

I'm fast coming to the conclusion things like this do not matter to a sizeable proportion of the population. It troubles me, but more troubling is how we can address it. People are so dissatisfied with the status quo/current "career" politicians, etc., that someone who comes out and speaks "what we all think" is seen as a Messiah.


quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Saying the left are the only ones ignoring this is ridiculous.
Trump will do nothing to solve his base's problems. Doesn't take any great political or economic mind to figure this out.

I worry "the left", media especially, isn't enganging though. An article I read yesterday from a left online media source correctly said left and right are ignorning economic issues:
quote:
What is also real is the refusal by liberals to permit economic discussion beyond, “Do you think Trump is going to fix that stuff? Hahaha you useful idiot.”

Trump is clearly not going to repair the gross economic inequality of America. But Trump clearly said, unlike Hillary Clinton, that he would. He was the only nominee making that promise. This does not make him the better nominee. It did make him the only one willing to concede that wages had diminished.

While I have busied myself being frustrated by the inability of my left and liberal peers to concede that a 40-year decline in real wages has created the conditions for a sack of shit to be elected president, I did not notice that the alt-right had become similarly opposed to economic talk.

I agree with you that Trump is not the answer, but while you say "Doesn't take any great political or economic mind to figure this out" I think you're bringing your educated and erudite mind into it, which is right and good -- but Trump supporters may be less so. From reports I read during the election they were hurting, and as the quote above attests, Trump was the only one speaking to their needs/hurts. What the answer is I have f-all idea. But, perhaps naively, and happy to have my thoughts torn apart/corrected, I think the dialogue needs to change.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?

It might be that condition being referred to as 'Social Malaise' , which still doesn't answer your question .
Too much of everything maybe, the speed at which technology is changing, or is it plain old boredom?

If anyone wants recent historical evidence of this *malaise* some exists here, tucked away in the bowels of this vessel. Threads entitled 'Disillusioned with Politics' etc. Or indeed study the early commentary on the US Election thread when everything seemed like a mix ot the totally boring and the painfully lack lustre. Now look what's happened !
It is likely that this isn't simply a Maverick dropping out of the sky and grabbing Power, but a more general factor whereby the whole population wasn't careful enough over what it wished for.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
His minions know well that Dishonest Don will say and believe whatever it was he last heard. Her's an article detailing the ongoing struggle for the vast empty reaches of the PG's mind.
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But all Trump voters had to ignore or justify all the racism and misogyny coming from Trump, and that is not nothing.
They also had to ignore all the lies*, lack of any coherent plan** and the fact that he has the self-control of an emotionally-stunted pre-teen with daddy issues.

Yes, they did, and many probably did so wilfully. And most of his voter will know and agree that he's an s.o.b. However, we who are off the breadline, rather underestimate how disliked Hillary Clinton was. In the speeches I saw of her, she looked tired and without ideas, and she projected this air of entitlement (time for a woman, time for me). She supported all sorts of minorities, which is fine, but she had little or nothing to offer low-income White America. Whatever she stood for, it was more of the same drudgery for them. Trump OTOH offered change, however risky. If you feel you have not far to fall, then risk begins to look like a rational bet. I think that the Democrats made a capital mistake by not given Bernie Sanders a real chance. He has his heart in the right place and he would have mopped the floor with Trump. Anyhow, that's all spilt milk, so we now have to see how we clear up the mess by other means.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Looking at it in that context, it's no wonder that protectionism sells. Globalisation means that the rich employers take their money and their jobs overseas, to places where labour is cheaper. The employers are happy because they cut costs. The new employees are happy.

It's the former employees, who weren't nearly as mobile as the money, that get left out of the bounty. It's far easier for an American company to go set up a factory in... Guatemala than it is for an American factory worker to go live in Guatemala.

Trump promises to drag the jobs back to the USA. His ability to deliver on that promise is another thing entirely, but that's the attractive promise.

But let's play that out a little more. So if he brings these jobs back to the USA, what will happen? Well, the reason the jobs were sent overseas was not because the companies wanted to do favors for Guatemala (or wherever), but because things could be made cheaper there. If the jobs are brought back to the USA, then the price of those products must go up. In other words, inflation. To keep the new, higher priced products competitive, the President plans tariffs. The point of tariffs is not that the producer is going to swallow the cost. Oh, no. The producer will raise prices on the imported goods to cover the tariff, so the price of imported goods goes up.

So the Trump plan is to drive up prices of both domestic and imported goods, triggering inflation. The American consumer (who presumably will not get an equivalent raise in pay) will then have less "buying power." Not everybody will be worse off, of course, because those new jobs will presumably be going to people who don't have jobs now, so their "buying power" will increase. So it isn't a total loss, but it will not be the great boon either as we brace for higher prices on top of stagnant wages.

However, the tariff scheme does have a neat twist to it that a politician would love: the tariff money goes to the government and, ultimately, the people paying that tariff will be the American consumer. It actually works like a tax on people without it being called a tax or even appearing to be a tax. Trump can then declare that he is "lowering" taxes and offset that with the money coming in from tariffs (paid by the American consumer). The difference is that paying taxes can sometimes be avoided (as Trump himself does) but paying higher prices because of tariffs cannot be so side-stepped. As such, the taxpayer, while apparently getting a "tax cut," could end up paying more to the government through higher product prices from tariffs.

Okay, major disclaimer here: I am not an economist and possibly everything I just wrote is woefully wrong because of some factor that economists know that I don't. I'm just saying that the above is the way it looks like to me pending getting further information.

Personally I've no argument with any of that. You may well be right.

The problem is, the argument about whether that stuff would actually work should have been made before the election. But no-one on the left side of politics was listening. Everyone was too busy playing Trump the man - talking about how awful he is as a person - and not considering any reason why people would vote for him except the assumption that they must be awful people too.

Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders was actually making some of the same noises about the effects of globalisation, and getting considerable support. Bernie Sanders not being an awful person.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't suggest any particular strategy for the Democrats, only that fear of payback is foolish given the Republicans' demonstrated propensity to obstruct no matter what. Obstruction may be less successful as an opposition stance for Democrats than it has been for Republicans, but trying to block bad policies is the higher moral ground; it would be foolish to adopt a policy of kissing Trump's ass in the vain hope that in four years' time the Republicans might just stop acting like Republicans.

The high ground is not about blocking bad policy. Which ground to occupy is going to be a choice between accommodation where there is shared interest with Trump and complete opposition. Those advocating accommodation will face stiff resistance and have legitimate fear for their re-electability.

The complete opposition approach throws governing out the window and legitimizes the Republican approach. I think the Republicans were successful at it because they could much more effectively channel the narrowly focused anger of the Tea Party which at its core is anti-governmental. So there is not something inherently conflicting in their message. Government is the problem to them, so debilitating it does not pose an existential quandary.

So this is not about payback or kissing ass in my estimation. Hopefully I am not extending this conversation beyond its shelf life.

Well it appears that your estimation has changed, then, since in your original formulation it was exactly about payback. Does this sound familiar?
quote:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
Given the experience of the last eight years this is still a farcical warning, since Democrats can have no reasonable expectation of future cooperation in any case.

But I think we've gone around this mulberry bush a sufficient number of times. You seem unwilling to either defend or abandon that statement, or even acknowledge that you made it at all, so I suppose there's really no reason for me to attempt to discuss it. We'll just attribute it to "Anon." and let it go.

I think it's worth trying to clarify (at least for me). Here is what I said in full

My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.

The Democrats have a higher hurdle as well given the number of state legislatures, Governorships, and House seats the Republicans now control and are likely to retain. Sure, the Republicans started this intransigence game first, but playing along I don't t think will benefit the Democrats. They need a strategy to win the electorate that went for Trump and not just stay the course and play to their base. I haven't seen any signs that strategy is forming or emerging.


I was not trying to say be ready for payback if there is total resistance to Trump. All I am saying is if total resistance is the strategy, and there is another Democratic President elected, we'll just be back to where we were (and it might be worse if Trump were made a martyr of sorts). Nothing would really be solved as a result. We should be ready for that.

I don't think the Democrats can just focus on tearing Trump down. They have to win over at least part of the electorate that voted for him. I don't think straight out attack mode will do that.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
I'm not interested in chasing you around that bush again, Alt Wally.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
There's a "make the rich pay" in here somewhere, surely!
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
His minions know well that Dishonest Don will say and believe whatever it was he last heard. Her's an article detailing the ongoing struggle for the vast empty reaches of the PG's mind.

This has even hit the news in several papers in Europe, and probably across the rest of world!
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
However, we who are off the breadline, rather underestimate how disliked Hillary Clinton was.

Actually those on the breadline voted for Hillary overall. It was those more above the breadline who voted for Trump.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I wandered over to the very conservative and elitist National Review to see what they had to say about Trump. Many of the articles on the front page are the sorts you'd expect. But then I found this rather measured one.

"President Trump: A View From Across The Pond."

Thoughts?
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
molopata:
quote:
...[Hillary Clinton] projected this air of entitlement...
On the one hand, a politician with years of experience, including a stint as secretary of state representing her country to other nations.

On the other, a billionaire (who inherited his wealth) whose major achievements include running beauty contests and hosting a reality TV show, with no political experience whatsoever.

Just remind me again which one of them is "entitled"? It looks to me like the rich white man who has just been catapulted into the most important job in the USA with no idea of what it involves and no plan of what to do now he's there.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Actually those on the breadline voted for Hillary overall. It was those more above the breadline who voted for Trump.

To an extent - there was a swing to Trump among lower paid voters (even if a majority of lower paid voters voted for Clinton). In state like Wisconsin, this was enough to swing the state from Clinton to Trump.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I see from BBC news this morning that President Pussygrabber intends to go along with his idea of a border wall between the US of A and Mexico.

How will this megalomaniacal scheme work? Some questions from this side of the pond:

1. How long is the border?
2. Of what will the wall be built?
3. How many border guards/watchtowers/fierce dogs/machine guns etc. will be needed?
4. Who will do the actual construction?
5. How much will it cost?
6. How long will it take to build?
7. Hasn't anyone told the Pussygrabber that ships and aircraft (known, I believe, to the Mexicans) can circumvent or overfly the wall?


[Killing me]

IJ
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

7. Hasn't anyone told the Pussygrabber that ships and aircraft (known, I believe, to the Mexicans) can circumvent or overfly the wall?


[Killing me]

IJ

You do realize this isn't directed against the Mexican military, right?
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hmm....maybe so, but even non-military Mexicans can get hold of ships/boats/aircraft/balloons etc., no?

[Paranoid]

IOW, the idea is insane and unworkable, yet another sign (if one were needed) that the PG is in La La Land...

IJ
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
To an extent - there was a swing to Trump among lower paid voters (even if a majority of lower paid voters voted for Clinton).

I don't follow. A swing from what? A swing from what might be expected from earlier polling or previous elections? Either way a majority is a majority - majorities are only ever majorities to an extent. If only the vote for Americans earning less than 50kUSD per year was counted Clinton would have been elected.
 
Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:



IOW, the idea is insane and unworkable, yet another sign (if one were needed) that the PG is in La La Land...

IJ

You do realise that whenever I see these initials or the words fully spelt out (!) that I have this vision of Donald Duck carrying a pussy-cat on each arm!!!! [Two face]
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

7. Hasn't anyone told the Pussygrabber that ships and aircraft (known, I believe, to the Mexicans) can circumvent or overfly the wall?


[Killing me]

IJ

You do realize this isn't directed against the Mexican military, right?
Drug cartels have their own planes, ships, and even submarines, along with sacks and sacks of US dollars.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I see from BBC news this morning that President Pussygrabber intends to go along with his idea of a border wall between the US of A and Mexico.

How will this megalomaniacal scheme work? Some questions from this side of the pond:

1. How long is the border?
2. Of what will the wall be built?
3. How many border guards/watchtowers/fierce dogs/machine guns etc. will be needed?
4. Who will do the actual construction?
5. How much will it cost?
6. How long will it take to build?
7. Hasn't anyone told the Pussygrabber that ships and aircraft (known, I believe, to the Mexicans) can circumvent or overfly the wall?


[Killing me]

IJ

8. Has he ever heard of tunnels? I frequently read in the Arizona news of tunnels that start in the basement of a building in Mexico and work their way to a basement in the U.S. (or the other way around). Maybe I should invest in a shovel business down by the border -- there should be an increased demand soon.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
How will this megalomaniacal scheme work? <<snip>> Hasn't anyone told the Pussygrabber that ships and aircraft (known, I believe, to the Mexicans) can circumvent or overfly the wall? Has he ever heard of tunnels?
Doesn't matter what anyone tells him. He only listens to voices emanating from his orange wig.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
At one point they found a tunnel which had been nicely fitted with rails, the better to transport great bales of drugs. I do not believe that the smugglers had achieved a locomotive at that point, but surely it is but a matter of time.

I am sure this is of no interest whatever to Dishonest Donald, but a wall would severely impact the wildlife of the region. Animals and plants have been moving back and forth across the border since the earth cooled. Migration patterns and biological diversity are going to be badly affected. (But animals, they may be pussies but they are not worth groping. So he won't care.)
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
One of Tony Hillerman's detective stories concerned a pipeline which was used to move drugs.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
To an extent - there was a swing to Trump among lower paid voters (even if a majority of lower paid voters voted for Clinton).

I don't follow. A swing from what? A swing from what might be expected from earlier polling or previous elections? Either way a majority is a majority - majorities are only ever majorities to an extent.
A swing from previous elections. The swing was concentrated in states like Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, all of which Trump ended up winning by narrow margins.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I am now finding reports of journalists being arrested under serious felony charges for being involved in the riots, and of departments being barred from releasing information.

Arrests

Ban on agencies releasing information on social media or to reporters

And the radio now has reports of him restoring torture and CIA bases off USA territory where it could be carried out.

God help the USA

[ 25. January 2017, 16:03: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
"This photo sums up Trump's assault on women's rights"

It makes me want to weep.

How did the USA step backwards into shameful patriarchy so easily? [Tear] [Tear]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
"This photo sums up Trump's assault on women's rights"

It makes me want to weep.

How did the USA step backwards into shameful patriarchy so easily? [Tear] [Tear]

Actually, this is fairly standard stuff for GOP presidents. The ban on abortion-related foreign aid goes back and forth like a ping-pong, depending on whether Republicans or Democrats hold the White House. I remember Obama reinstating the money in 2009, the week after he was sworn in.

Like I've argued before, I think a lot of what people are thinking of as the unprecedented evil of Trumpism is really just run-of-the-mill Republicanism.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
And it's not just American conservatives who do this sort of thing. Here's an article from Canada. Not sure if Trudeau has reversed this, but I'd imagine he will.

Conservatives like screwing around with this foreign-aid stuff because it allows them to play to their base by stopping some abortions(ie. foreign) from happening, while not alienating the more liberal section of their coalition, since it doesn't directly interfere with anyone's right to legally obtain an abortion in the country.

The funny thing is, Harper was always quick to quash even the most meaningless, symbolic anti-abortion bills introduced by his backbenchers in the Commons(eg. "This House deplores the practice of sex-selective abortion"), because he knew it would freak out the live-and-let-live suburbanites who just want lower taxes. So he was pretty much a master at walking the tightrope on this issue.

[ 25. January 2017, 17:29: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
"This photo sums up Trump's assault on women's rights"

It makes me want to weep.

How did the USA step backwards into shameful patriarchy so easily? [Tear] [Tear]

Actually, this is fairly standard stuff for GOP presidents.
Actually it's more of an amped-up, over the top version of previous Republican policies:

quote:
Previously, the restrictions embedded in the Global Gag Rule were limited exclusively to NGOs that receive US government assistance for family planning and reproductive health, like contraception. These restrictions include prohibiting that NGO from counseling women that abortion is an option or lobbying foreign governments to liberalize their abortion laws. Even if the funding sources for abortion counseling come from another source, that NGO must cease that counseling or either relinquish its US funding for, say, condom distribution or obstetric surgeries. That’s how it worked in the Bush administration – to disasterous effect.

But the Trump memo takes this a huge step further. Rather than applying the Global Gag Rule exclusively to US assistance for family planning in the developing world, which amounts to about $575 million per year, the Trump memo applies it to “global health assistance furnished by all department or agencies.” In other words, NGOs that distribute bed nets for malaria, provide childhood vaccines, support early childhood nutrition and brain development, run HIV programs, fight ebola or Zika, and much more, must now certify their compliance with the Global Gag Rule or risk losing US funds. According to analysis from PAI, a global health NGO, this impacts over $9 billion of US funds, or about 15 times more than the previous iteration of the Global Gag Rule which only impacted reproductive health assistance.

So I guess in one sense you could argue it's just more of the same that the past Republican presidents have inflicted on the world's poor. On the other hand it's a lot more of same, which would make it "unprecedented" in the strict, dictionary sense of the term.

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Like I've argued before, I think a lot of what people are thinking of as the unprecedented evil of Trumpism is really just run-of-the-mill Republicanism.

A lot of it is unprecedented in the strictest sense of the term, but it's also the easily foreseeable outcome from the trajectory of a party that thought George W. Bush and Sarah Palin were presidential material.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yes, there were legitimate concerns the electorate has that are not being addressed. Saying the left are the only ones ignoring this is ridiculous.

Were you following the same election I was? Trump was definitely the only one offering solutions to those concerns.

Now, you may say he'd never actually do anything to solve them. And you may be right. But that doesn't change the fact that he was the only one saying he would.

If you're desperate for a solution to your woes, and in a two horse race one person is reputable but doesn't propose anything that will solve them and the other person is untrustworthy but promises to solve them, which one are you going to choose? You may well be screwed either way, but isn't it obvious that you'll choose the one who at least gives you a chance?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yes, there were legitimate concerns the electorate has that are not being addressed. Saying the left are the only ones ignoring this is ridiculous.

Were you following the same election I was? Trump was definitely the only one offering solutions to those concerns.
He did not offer solutions. He proposed actions, which is a different thing.

quote:

If you're desperate for a solution to your woes, and in a two horse race one person is reputable but doesn't propose anything that will solve them and the other person is untrustworthy but promises to solve them, which one are you going to choose? You may well be screwed either way, but isn't it obvious that you'll choose the one who at least gives you a chance?

I encountered a bloke on the street who claimed to have all manner of solution to the world's ills. But as he hadn't managed eployment or mastered the basics of hygiene, I decided not to follow his guidance. Trump isn't much different to him.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
This is seriously troubling. The deletion of scientific data has begun. Ctrl/Alt/Del

I do hope there are ways to get the stuff out.

[ 25. January 2017, 18:54: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
"This photo sums up Trump's assault on women's rights"

It makes me want to weep.

How did the USA step backwards into shameful patriarchy so easily? [Tear] [Tear]

Actually, this is fairly standard stuff for GOP presidents. The ban on abortion-related foreign aid goes back and forth like a ping-pong, depending on whether Republicans or Democrats hold the White House. I remember Obama reinstating the money in 2009, the week after he was sworn in.


The article makes that very point very clearly.

I suppose that as the whole Trump 'thing' is regarded as quite extraordinary, for a whole lot of reasons, anything the man does will perhaps also be considered as extraordinarily significant. He's not a run-of-the-mill President by anyone's standards.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Given that DD the PG has vowed to build The Great Wall Of Mexico, is he also likely to advocate A Great Wall Of Canada?

After all, and with all due respect to that noble Country, there must surely be brown/Muslim people in Canada, too.

IJ
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

7. Hasn't anyone told the Pussygrabber that ships and aircraft (known, I believe, to the Mexicans) can circumvent or overfly the wall?


[Killing me]

IJ

You do realize this isn't directed against the Mexican military, right?
Drug cartels have their own planes, ships, and even submarines, along with sacks and sacks of US dollars.
The wall has nothing to do with drugs.

The wall has nothing to do with being effective.

It will exist simply as a big gigantic reelection poster.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Or not, depending on the resources wasted in building and staffing it. Or then again, as a way of bringing jobs to America.... [Eek!]

IJ
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Or then again, as a way of bringing jobs to America.... [Eek!]

Oddly that was my thinking. Oil pipelines, walls...big infrastructure projects that will employ a lot of people -- in the short term. Then have the laid off with only a few needed to maintain them. But perhaps the emmployment surge will last till 2020...if it all goes ahead...which is all he needs I suppose.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yes, there were legitimate concerns the electorate has that are not being addressed. Saying the left are the only ones ignoring this is ridiculous.

Were you following the same election I was? Trump was definitely the only one offering solutions to those concerns.

Now, you may say he'd never actually do anything to solve them. And you may be right. But that doesn't change the fact that he was the only one saying he would.

If you're desperate for a solution to your woes, and in a two horse race one person is reputable but doesn't propose anything that will solve them and the other person is untrustworthy but promises to solve them, which one are you going to choose? You may well be screwed either way, but isn't it obvious that you'll choose the one who at least gives you a chance?

Other people bring me problems. Donald brings me solutions!*

So your lady bank manager tells you that whilst your account is in credit you don't nearly earn enough to get a mortgage to buy that flat you have your eye on. Meanwhile this top bloke from Nigeria** has just e-mailed you to say that he needs help transferring millions of pounds to the UK and he'll cut you in if you could just let him have a few pertinent details. So, by your logic, you should totally e-mail him your bank details and PIN. Because, when times are tough, people offering you the moon on a stick are always a better bet than a woman who knows what she's talking about.

*Couldn't resist it but, yeah, bit harsh on Mrs Thatcher and Lord Young.
**Unfortunately*** there isn't (AFAIK) an obviously dodgy e-mail scam run by white supremacists which would be a much better analogy.
***Unfortunately for this analogy that is. Fortunately for Trump voters who would be skint if there were.
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
This is seriously troubling. The deletion of scientific data has begun. Ctrl/Alt/Del

I do hope there are ways to get the stuff out.

This is indeed very worrying. It suggests a degree of ideological micromanagement that is reminiscent of China's reluctance to release pollution data in their major cities. Indeed it could be much more sweeping than that. Basically, by destroying the public availability of data, Trumps administration is creating scope for its New Truths to be propagated without scientific challenge.

At this rate the United States will cease to be a democracy at some point towards the end of February. However, I think a push-back from federal bodies will start to grow. Most administrations are at some level aware that they depend on their federal minions to deliver the facts they need to shape policies and make decisions. Trump in his infinite wisdom doesn't need any of that. However, at some point things will begin to go off the rails and he will have no where else to turn. And until then, federal offices will increasingly start to drag their feet and slow the process of government if they feel Trump & Co. are stopping them from doing their job.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Or not, depending on the resources wasted in building and staffing it. Or then again, as a way of bringing jobs to America.... [Eek!]

IJ

I'm tempted to pop down to the bookies and find the odds on there being a major scandal in a couple of years when the Wall is left half built when the contractors bail out complaining about non-payment and it turns out that half the people doing the heavy lifting are undocumented Mexican immigrants.
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
molopata:
quote:
...[Hillary Clinton] projected this air of entitlement...
On the one hand, a politician with years of experience, including a stint as secretary of state representing her country to other nations.
On the other, a billionaire (who inherited his wealth) whose major achievements include running beauty contests and hosting a reality TV show, with no political experience whatsoever.
Just remind me again which one of them is "entitled"? It looks to me like the rich white man who has just been catapulted into the most important job in the USA with no idea of what it involves and no plan of what to do now he's there.

Please don't quote me out of context. Saying that I think that Hillary Clinton was a poor candidate doesn't mean I think that DT was a good one. Your comparison stands in terms of who was better qualified, but entitled is no-one who does not hit it off with a majority of the electorate. At times HC appeared to forget this.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I am suddenly reminded of a brief verse by Kipling.

Who shall doubt "the secret hid
Under Cheops' pyramid"
Was that the contractor did
Cheops out of several millions?

Though in this case, it will be Cheops doing the contractor out of the money.

And looking it up, I find the second part of the verse also relevant.

Or that Joseph's sudden rise
To Comptroller of Supplies
Was a fraud of monstrous size
On King Pharaoh's swart Civilians?
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Or not, depending on the resources wasted in building and staffing it. Or then again, as a way of bringing jobs to America.... [Eek!]

IJ

You are assuming something other then a PR job's worth will get built.

These guys are into half assed stuff already. Most of the Presidential proclamations and executive orders are little more then "Do this!" stuff. Nothing binding. All talk. No action.

E.g. He's going to choose the best looking dude for the SCOTUS. Who knows how that guy will think and talk in 10 years? Nobody. But, he'll have great hair.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
If only the vote for Americans earning less than 50kUSD per year was counted Clinton would have been elected.

Again, Hillary *did* win the popular vote.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yes, there were legitimate concerns the electorate has that are not being addressed. Saying the left are the only ones ignoring this is ridiculous.

Were you following the same election I was? Trump was definitely the only one offering solutions to those concerns.
I believe Sanders was offering solutions as well. Clinton made some movement in that direction while campaigning against Sanders.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mt--

He chose that day? I heard him say, during the inauguration (IIRC), that there'd be a patriotic day, but nothing about it being *that* day. Even for him, that's pretty darn brazen.

It's not that different from what other presidents have done:

snopes

Great find. Your fact-checking diligence is worth its weight in gold.
Though, if you go to Snopes and compare Trump's proclamation with Obamas (text of both at that link), you'll see that O started with stating "I am humbled". IMHO, that gives a different framework.

I don't think these proclamations for inauguration day are a good idea. But there are differences among them.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Here's a purported example of the incompetency here, found randomly on twitter.

quote:
Draft Trump Exec Order calls for cuts to US funding of International Criminal Court. US doesn't fund the ICC
Lets see if this happens but....

[Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
We're not even signed up for the ICC.
 
Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
molopata:
quote:
...[Hillary Clinton] projected this air of entitlement...
On the one hand, a politician with years of experience, including a stint as secretary of state representing her country to other nations.
On the other, a billionaire (who inherited his wealth) whose major achievements include running beauty contests and hosting a reality TV show, with no political experience whatsoever.
Just remind me again which one of them is "entitled"? It looks to me like the rich white man who has just been catapulted into the most important job in the USA with no idea of what it involves and no plan of what to do now he's there.

Please don't quote me out of context. Saying that I think that Hillary Clinton was a poor candidate doesn't mean I think that DT was a good one. Your comparison stands in terms of who was better qualified, but entitled is no-one who does not hit it off with a majority of the electorate. At times HC appeared to forget this.
Surely, the word entitled is used in colloquial English for someone who expects to have, for example, power due to their social status and connections, even though they are in no way qualified to wield that power by their own merit. Thus, David Cameron might well be thought of as displaying entitlement by those who found his premiership less than stellar. A fair assessment of HRC's record would demonstrate that she did have the qualifications and talent to have a pretty good chance of being at least a competant POTUS.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
A fair assessment of HRC's record would demonstrate that she did have the qualifications and talent to have a pretty good chance of being at least a competant POTUS.

Yes, but as you wrote your view of the meaning of entitlement is but one -- it has many at the moment and I would say Hillary and her supporters projected a sense of entitlement from the beginning, with Sanders encouraged to drop out.

To me my view had nought to do with her connections [I saw that as her being part of the "political machine"] and a more a sense that she didn't get elected 8 years ago and it was her turn -- she was entitled to it. As if by being a politician for so long, and being a woman thrown in by the media too [perhaps not Hillary's fault], it was finally her time -- and woe-betide anyone who stood in her way.

This was but my view from across the Pacific. But media reports and statements made all contributed to it. For me, anyway. I could be reading it wrong. Was she more qualified? Hell, yes. But the sense of "it is my time" got me more. [As did her backflips on things like the TPP which seemed not genuine, but that's another thread. Thank God it seems to be dead -- corporations suing governments?!? God help me.]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
. . . [Hillary Clinton] projected this air of entitlement (time for a woman, time for me).

Such a contrast to that modest, self-effacing Mr. Trump. [Roll Eyes]

There seems to be a conditioned response to view any woman advocating her own advancement as "entitled". I posted this article in the old election thread which notes that Hillary Clinton has been consistently popular, but that her popularity nosedives whenever she seeks any kind of higher position. (Running for the Senate, getting Senate approval as Secretary of State, etc.)

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Yes, but as you wrote your view of the meaning of entitlement is but one -- it has many at the moment and I would say Hillary and her supporters projected a sense of entitlement from the beginning, with Sanders encouraged to drop out.

To me my view had nought to do with her connections [I saw that as her being part of the "political machine"] and a more a sense that she didn't get elected 8 years ago and it was her turn -- she was entitled to it. As if by being a politician for so long, and being a woman thrown in by the media too [perhaps not Hillary's fault], it was finally her time -- and woe-betide anyone who stood in her way.

For some reason this standard never seems to get applied to other (male) candidates who run for president more than once. At least I don't recall being subjected to endless articles about what an entitled bitch [Mitt Romney / John McCain / Al Gore / Bob Dole / George H. W. Bush] is.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
We're not even signed up for the ICC.

Alternative fact?
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For some reason this standard never seems to get applied to other (male) candidates who run for president more than once. At least I don't recall being subjected to endless articles about what an entitled bitch [Mitt Romney / John McCain / Al Gore / Bob Dole / George H. W. Bush] is.

I clearly did not express myself well.

I was not concerned with her running again. I guessed she would, and wished her well. I preferred Bernie but my opinion counts for jack all given I'm not a citizen. I just saw, whether from her or the media, a sense that this was hers as she had done the hard yards -- and if you didn't support her [at the beginning] you were clearly sexist. That sort of talk troubles me. Policy surely counts.

[That said, once we got to the actual election supporting Trump communicates to me you may have issues with women, and even see them as second-class citizens. That is not acceptable to me. Given I guess you can't spoil your ballot over there, and voting is not compulsory, not sure I'd've turn up. Not sure if that is worse...]
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I think it does matter. Not voting is abdicating your responsibility as a citizen. The US, and other places with non-compulsory voting would do well to look at how the ancient Athenians treated citizens who did not attend to their civic duties, then implement those procedures with some modern updating.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
FWIW: As I've said many times before, compulsory voting would never work here in the US. We don't like being told what to do. Good chance that many more people would just skip it altogether, more than already do. Others might wreck their ballots, or write in fictional characters. (Bugs Bunny for president?) And I can envision some people being so upset that they hire someone to go vote for them, which would create the voter fraud that some conservatives are so worried about. In vote-by-mail states, that could be as easy as filling out a stack of ballots while watching TV. (NOT saying that anyone is already doing any of that.)
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Well Australian law is absolutely fine with you wrecking your ballot. The requirement is to turn up, to do something.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Others might wreck their ballots, or write in fictional characters. (Bugs Bunny for president?)

We've had this...5% or so of votes are informal [though that includes people not numbering enough squares, etc.] I would be loathe to do it, but let people do want they want.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And I can envision some people being so upset that they hire someone to go vote for them, which would create the voter fraud that some conservatives are so worried about.

I personally can't see that happening. People go here to vote. But I can sympathise with the concern. We have postal votes here too.

Then again, schools and voting places here put on bbqs and cake stalls on election day so there are other reasons to go. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
If people are forced to show up, only to spoil their ballots, then what's the point?

I've never heard of American polling places having food and entertainment. Maybe in a small town. Or in a place, like Iowa, which has caucuses. AIUI, people show up and vote by moving from one side of the room to another. I can see that having something of a party atmosphere.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For some reason this standard never seems to get applied to other (male) candidates who run for president more than once. At least I don't recall being subjected to endless articles about what an entitled bitch [Mitt Romney / John McCain / Al Gore / Bob Dole / George H. W. Bush] is.

Actually, I do remember this criticism being leveled at Bob Dole:
quote:
"We need to say, with respect, to Sen. Dole that it may be his turn, but it's not his time," says [former Tennessee governor Lamar] Alexander, capsulizing the view of those questioning the inevitability of Dole's nomination.
Fun fact - the Dole/Kemp '96 website is still live! It will be 21 this year - old enough to drink legally in all 50 states! (Sadly, the links to the pages "Follow along on the Victory Marathon" and "Calculate your tax cut!" no longer work.)
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
If people are forced to show up, only to spoil their ballots, then what's the point?

It forces a decision. That's the point. How many times have you vaguely thought about doing something, and then the moment's passed and you've just shrugged your shoulders? Compulsory voting forces people to think about voting. Just letting Election Day glide by is not an option.

[ 26. January 2017, 03:33: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Just heard a BBC report which interviewed The Trumpettes from California. One devotedly reads the Scriptures and noted approvingly of the wall given that she had just read Ezekiel 22:30:
quote:
I looked for someone among them who would build up the wall.

(NIV)

Yes. It speaks of Trump.

I despair. Though content myself with the fact she is not far from Ezekiel 23.
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
'Emissions' (Bible Gateway link)? - One begins to understand their climate change denial now.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
And more fun: Trump is going after "sanctuary cities", like SF and Oakland and maybe San Jose, which usually won't turn undocumented immigrants over Immigration. He's trying to cut all federal funds to such places. Local news reports SF could lose $1 billion in funding.

Mayors of the local sanctuary cities are saying they won't cave.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Whoa.

TV news just showed a huge "Resist" banner that Greenpeacers put 270 ft. up, at the top of a crane, a couple of blocks from the White House! And they're evidently still up there!

I think it was probably very unwise for them to put their faces and names on video. News said the DC cops were contacted, and the Greenpeacers will be arrested when they're back on the ground. And the prosecutor's office will be consulted "to find out what charges would be appropriate".

Warning, if you're afraid of heights or have motion sickness: Some of the video shown here in SF had straight-down camera shots, from the top of the crane. Other sources of video might do the same.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
An open invitation to the PG?

Theresa May seems ready to join the new President in his desire to remake the world. I suspect she has a reciprocal invitation to visit the UK in her pocket.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
molopata:
quote:
Please don't quote me out of context. Saying that I think that Hillary Clinton was a poor candidate doesn't mean I think that DT was a good one.
To me she sounded like a fairly typical politician, but then we are accustomed to female leaders in the UK. Our Head of State and Head of Government are both currently female.

quote:
Your comparison stands in terms of who was better qualified, but entitled is no-one who does not hit it off with a majority of the electorate. At times HC appeared to forget this.
Nobody's going to vote for you if you sound as if you don't think you can do the job, either. And in fact Hillary Clinton did win the popular vote, despite being handicapped by the adjectival double standard (He is assertive. She is bossy. He is confident. She is arrogant. He is Presidential material. She thinks she's entitled...)

If I seem like I'm getting at you personally, I apologise. But this is a situation many women have been in; being passed over for a job in favour of a less qualified male candidate.

[ 26. January 2017, 08:10: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Amen, Jane.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've just been listening to a discussion on parasites and they way they alter the behaviour of their hosts. For some reason May's sycophancy has triggered a comparison with this. Like the way Blair switched from friendship with Clinton to buddy with Bush. Makes me sick. What on earth infects them?
Is there something that appears in No 10, like the Minister for Magic to convert the incumbent to believing rubbish?
I hope we have a demo against the creep when he turns up.
 
Posted by neandergirl (# 8916) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
If people are forced to show up, only to spoil their ballots, then what's the point?

I've never heard of American polling places having food and entertainment. Maybe in a small town. Or in a place, like Iowa, which has caucuses. AIUI, people show up and vote by moving from one side of the room to another. I can see that having something of a party atmosphere.

A number of the PTAs in my reasonably large US city had stalls selling baked goods and snacks to those lining up to vote.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've just heard James O'Brien on LBC (phone in radio station) report that No 10 has been asked if May condemns torture, and have refused to comment. This in response to someone who rang in, appalled that in our name she is giving this mendacious torture supporting thing the beautiful gift of a loving cup.
 
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
An open invitation to the PG?

Theresa May seems ready to join the new President in his desire to remake the world. I suspect she has a reciprocal invitation to visit the UK in her pocket.

If Trump does turn up in the UK, I’d hope he’ll get the protest of his life.

Back in the day when I was a protesting student, I remember George Bush visiting London; beforehand he apparently had rather charming delusions of riding down the Mall to meet the Queen to the cheers of the adoring crowds. The Presidential aides had to have a quiet word with him about why it wasn’t a very good idea. In the event he got a rather embarrassing “Stop the War” welcome. (There was also a not insignificant protest about climate change.)

British protestors will presumably have less reason to fear retaliation than Americans and Trump is even more widely disliked in the UK, so I don’t think it would be a great PR exercise for him.
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I've just heard James O'Brien on LBC (phone in radio station) report that No 10 has been asked if May condemns torture, and have refused to comment. This in response to someone who rang in, appalled that in our name she is giving this mendacious torture supporting thing the beautiful gift of a loving cup.

She's giving him a loving cup? A LOVING CUP?
Cue the famous scene from 'Freaks'. Except the freaks are the good guys.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
If Pussygrabber does come to the UK, protestors will not be allowed to get anywhere near His Stupendous Greatness. The fascists will see to that (and it will be reported, no doubt, that there was no protest...).

[Disappointed]

IJ
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
In the meantime, Trump is setting up a commission to investigate voter fraud in the last election.

How msny sinister consequences could that have?
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
If Pussygrabber does come to the UK, protestors will not be allowed to get anywhere near His Stupendous Greatness. The fascists will see to that (and it will be reported, no doubt, that there was no protest...).

[Disappointed]

IJ

Depends how big the protest is - does it have to be near the idiot for him to hear of it?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
That was why the March on Washington (and elsewhere worldwide) was so effective. Raw numbers, exactly what the PG in Chief adores and lives by. He could not deny it, not when it was a sea of pink hats on TV. It is the only thing he really understands.

So, if he does come? Get it in gear, UKians. Make it undeniable, unmissable, impossible to brush away. Rub his nose in it. Let me know if you would like some pink hats.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I think there will be big marches. There were supposed to be 100, 000 in Trafalgar Square last week, well, it looked nearly full on TV, and it's a big square. There is plenty of scope, misogyny, abortion, climate denialism, torture, racism, and of course, the British govt brown nosing.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
That was why the March on Washington (and elsewhere worldwide) was so effective. Raw numbers, exactly what the PG in Chief adores and lives by. He could not deny it, not when it was a sea of pink hats on TV. It is the only thing he really understands.

So, if he does come? Get it in gear, UKians. Make it undeniable, unmissable, impossible to brush away. Rub his nose in it. Let me know if you would like some pink hats.

I'll be there!
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
This might be a problem:

quote:
Secretary of State Rex Tillerson’s job running the State Department just got considerably more difficult. The entire senior level of management officials resigned Wednesday, part of an ongoing mass exodus of senior foreign service officers who don’t want to stick around for the Trump era.

Tillerson was actually inside the State Department’s headquarters in Foggy Bottom on Wednesday, taking meetings and getting the lay of the land. I reported Wednesday morning that the Trump team was narrowing its search for his No. 2, and that it was looking to replace the State Department’s long-serving undersecretary for management, Patrick Kennedy. Kennedy, who has been in that job for nine years, was actively involved in the transition and was angling to keep that job under Tillerson, three State Department officials told me.

Then suddenly on Wednesday afternoon, Kennedy and three of his top officials resigned unexpectedly, four State Department officials confirmed. Assistant Secretary of State for Administration Joyce Anne Barr, Assistant Secretary of State for Consular Affairs Michele Bond and Ambassador Gentry O. Smith, director of the Office of Foreign Missions, followed him out the door. All are career foreign service officers who have served under both Republican and Democratic administrations.

Good thing there aren't any plans in the works to (for example) ban travel from certain countries or anything else the State Department would have to deal with. Luckily the diplomatic workload just got a little lighter, so that's a relief. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
If the Abomination Of Desolation does descend in His Aweful Majesty on us poor UKippers, I'm sure we will indeed prove how revolting we can be.

My point, alas, was that the protests would simply be ignored by the right-wing trash that passes for 'the Press' here...

Meanwhile, anent The Wall, I wonder if we could contrive to send our lovely Nigel Garbage to help with its building? As part of its foundation, perhaps....

IJ
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Trump is going after "sanctuary cities", like SF and Oakland and maybe San Jose, which usually won't turn undocumented immigrants over Immigration.

Who exactly are "undocumented immigrants"? Does it include people who overstay visas? Asylum seekers? -- I take it they are allowed into the community [unlike here where we send them to Pacific Islands to be locked up]. What does being undocumented mean for their daily lives, apart from possible fear of being found out and deported?

I know there are undocumented workers in the US too, and those who have been there a while and even had children in the US. This makes me wonder a bit, but I can understand there are no easy solutions. And I do not know the social/political system in the US so I am loathe to make judgements, but it seems if you have undocumented people *something* needs to be done -- giving them residency if they meet criteria, for instance. Or are the numbers just so overwhelming?

I have more support for the poor people who try and reach here by boat than I do the (often white) over-stayers who came here by plane and who we hear nothing about in all the rhetoric about "illegal immigrants".
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Trump is going after "sanctuary cities", like SF and Oakland and maybe San Jose, which usually won't turn undocumented immigrants over Immigration.

Who exactly are "undocumented immigrants"?

Foreigners without documents entitling them to be in the US. So yes, it includes people who overstay visas, although in common use it almost always refers to people who sneak across the border between the US and Mexico.

Asylum seekers? If you show up in a country, seek out an official, and request asylum, then you get given some kind of legal status until your claim is dealt with. Perhaps you are allowed into the community, perhaps you are held in a refugee camp, or whatever.

quote:

What does being undocumented mean for their daily lives, apart from possible fear of being found out and deported?

If you don't have a legal status in the US, it is difficult or impossible to get a driving license, which means you can't get insurance. You don't have normal id, so it's difficult or impossible to get a bank account. And, of course, it's hard to take a stand against being exploited because you don't want to draw attention to yourself.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
According to the Associated Press Twitter feed, The White House has just announced tariffs of 20% on Mexican imports to pay for the border wall.

Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States.

And poor the rest of us who are just about to discover why the world concluded that protectionism is a really bad idea in the 1940s.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
I see pictures of him coming up on my twitter feed and all I can think is

"Man has Barney Rubble ever aged badly!"
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Weep for the future, Na' Toth.

quote:
42% of Trump voters think he should be allowed to have a private email server to just 39% who think he shouldn't be allowed to. Maybe cyber security wasn't such a big issue in last year's election after all.

 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
It is but one example of what I have discovered is the root GOP philosophy, "For me, not you." I get untrammeled and unsecured emails. You get nagged about it relentlessly.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
According to the Associated Press Twitter feed, The White House has just announced tariffs of 20% on Mexican imports to pay for the border wall.

Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States.

And poor the rest of us who are just about to discover why the world concluded that protectionism is a really bad idea in the 1940s.

So Mexico will export less to the USA, and other countries will export more. Then USA would have to consider tariffs on them. All of the countries will then retaliate and prices in USA go up.

Under NAFTA, trump can't just impose tariffs immediately. 6 months notice is required. It's an international treaty. trump can't do it all himself. Your congress is required to agree to some of it, or not, depending on whether the person making the point is a trumpette or not.
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
Yes. I think Congress is the linchpin. If they tether DT, then the world might yet bypass a disaster. If they go along with his deluded ways, woe betide us.

Basically, most powers around the world (especially China) are waiting to see if all this hot air translates into legislative action. If it does, things could heat up dangerously quickly. So please pray!
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Trump is going after "sanctuary cities", like SF and Oakland and maybe San Jose, which usually won't turn undocumented immigrants over Immigration.

Who exactly are "undocumented immigrants"?

Foreigners without documents entitling them to be in the US. So yes, it includes people who overstay visas, although in common use it almost always refers to people who sneak across the border between the US and Mexico.
Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.


quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Asylum seekers? If you show up in a country, seek out an official, and request asylum, then you get given some kind of legal status until your claim is dealt with. Perhaps you are allowed into the community, perhaps you are held in a refugee camp, or whatever.

Yes, although because of our geographic location, the US has almost no asylum seekers. Back in the day we got our share of "boat people" from Cuba, but today there really aren't any close neighbors seeking asylum. So what we have are refugees-- those who have sought asylum in some other country (generally neighboring their own) and gone thru the very very extensive (3 years on average) vetting process. The UN distinguishes between these three categories-- immigrant (whether legal or not), asylum seeker, and refugee. I'm part of a "welcome team" for resettling refugees in our community-- the agency we are working with was gearing up to resettle 95,000 refugees in 2017-- now they don't know if they'll have any.


quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:


quote:

What does being undocumented mean for their daily lives, apart from possible fear of being found out and deported?

If you don't have a legal status in the US, it is difficult or impossible to get a driving license, which means you can't get insurance. You don't have normal id, so it's difficult or impossible to get a bank account. And, of course, it's hard to take a stand against being exploited because you don't want to draw attention to yourself. [/QB]
California has taken steps to make it legal for undocumented immigrants to get drivers licenses because of the problems that result when you don't. I haven't heard how successful the program has been.

In our local communities we're seeing all sorts of ill results of the fear of deportation: many/most undocumented persons will be afraid to have interaction with government officials which can impact things like registering kids for school-- even if the kids were born in US and therefore citizens. They may be reluctant to take advantage of special ed or health care services available in their community.

The Dream Act was focused on the portion of this group that was brought to the US before the age of 18-- i.e. had no say in their undocumented status-- giving them legal, safe access to public services and particularly college admission & scholarships, with a path to citizenship. Our colleges and universities have seen a flood of 1st gen applicants as a result-- a wonderfully just and successful program. Trump has stated that he plans to repeal the act.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I've just heard James O'Brien on LBC (phone in radio station) report that No 10 has been asked if May condemns torture, and have refused to comment. This in response to someone who rang in, appalled that in our name she is giving this mendacious torture supporting thing the beautiful gift of a loving cup.

The Glasgow Herald quoted May as saying, "...we do not sanction torture and do not get involved in it. That will continue to be our position.” I read that as her saying she is willing to continue looking the other way while the new US government resumes the practices of the GW Bush administration.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.

My understanding was that visa overstayers outnumber border-sneakers even among Mexicans who are in the US.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I've just heard James O'Brien on LBC (phone in radio station) report that No 10 has been asked if May condemns torture, and have refused to comment. This in response to someone who rang in, appalled that in our name she is giving this mendacious torture supporting thing the beautiful gift of a loving cup.

She's giving him a loving cup? A LOVING CUP?
Cue the famous scene from 'Freaks'. Except the freaks are the good guys.

Ummm...errrr...is a loving cup the sort of thing a PM would usually give to a visiting head of state? Over here, those are used as trophies for competitions.

Is that perhaps a Scottish tradition? T's mom was a Scot--from the Hebrides or Orkneys, I think.

Thx.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.

My understanding was that visa overstayers outnumber border-sneakers even among Mexicans who are in the US.
Yep. How effective is a wall going to be in preventing visa over-staying?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
Yes. I think Congress is the linchpin. If they tether DT, then the world might yet bypass a disaster. If they go along with his deluded ways, woe betide us.

Basically, most powers around the world (especially China) are waiting to see if all this hot air translates into legislative action. If it does, things could heat up dangerously quickly. So please pray!

We must remember that Crooked Donald is purely a creature of surface. Having signed a document, he's done his part. He will brag about it until the cows come home. That Congress may or may not actually enact anything, or fund the wall-building or deporting, etc., is not his problem. He will blame them for any failure of actual result to appear.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Your congress is required to agree to some of it, or not, depending on whether the person making the point is a trumpette or not.

Pronounced to rhyme with strumpet? [Biased]
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.

My understanding was that visa overstayers outnumber border-sneakers even among Mexicans who are in the US.
Yep. How effective is a wall going to be in preventing visa over-staying?
Not to mention that at present, the net flow of people crossing to/from El Otro Lado* is to Mexico. The wall will just slow them down.


--
*Spanish for "the other side" i.e. USA
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
According to the Associated Press Twitter feed, The White House has just announced tariffs of 20% on Mexican imports to pay for the border wall.

Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States.

And poor the rest of us who are just about to discover why the world concluded that protectionism is a really bad idea in the 1940s.

The Republicans seem unaware of the History of the Smoot Hawley Tariff
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
"AP source: Border Patrol chief says he's been forced out." (Yahoo)

The dynamics might be a little more complicated than simply getting a pink slip from on high--DC, that is. Some bad feeling towards him in the union, but the union is pro Trump...
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Yikes! The comments! All Trumpistas. Scarey.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I don't think this fight will be won on the internet, at least not in the format of trading successive comments on social media and similar.

I get the impression Trump social media support is very well organised, with heads-ups to comment massively on hot topics.

(And no hosts!).
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.

As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.

As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.

The tunnel may be in profit but what about the rest of the South-Western USA without cheap labour from South of the Border?
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.

As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.

The tunnel may be in profit but what about the rest of the South-Western USA without cheap labour from South of the Border?
Not only the SW. During Bush père's presidency, there was a serious crackdown on undocumented migrant labour and the orchards of the Washington and Oregon were left without workers, and the crop on the trees and ready for picking. At considerable public expense, the National Guard was enlisted to bring the apple crop in that year. And, as several restaurant and food writers have noted, kitchens everywhere in the US would empty, and restaurant prices rise.
 
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
Why some people voted Trump.

Interview with a Trump supporter.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.

My understanding was that visa overstayers outnumber border-sneakers even among Mexicans who are in the US.
It's hard to say, given the undocumented nature of the population under discussion. Best estimates are that somewhere between a quarter and half of undocumented immigrants currently in the U.S. originally gained entry with a valid visa, which they overstayed. Relatedly, it's estimated that more than half of those currently becoming undocumented immigrants to the U.S. (i.e. the most recent group of undocumented immigrants) originally entered the country on a valid visa. In other words, increased physical security (i.e. a wall) at the U.S.-Mexico border is the immigration equivalent of generals trying to re-fight the last war (or in this case a war from the fourteenth century).
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.

As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.

More Mexicans are going south than north.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
You can only chatter about a wall if you have never been to south Texas and Arizona. It is vast and empty there. Miles and miles and miles of the border are simply arid scrub. A wall would be longer than Hadrian's wall, of Chinese Great Wall dimensions. It would be the work of generations. It is fantasy, as realistic as the Death Star and as likely as a portal to Asgard.

Toll booths -- it is to laugh. You would just walk away, into the scrub, and cross over.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I suspect he wants something greater than the Great Wall, even if unconsciously. If he ever says, "And you'll be able to see it from SPACE!", we'll know for sure.

If it ever is built: Welcome, comrades, to East Berlin.

I do think it might solve many problems, temporarily, if he built the wall himself, by hand. Adobe might be nice. And he could make the bricks. Alternatively, maybe someone could get him everything that LEGO makes, so he can try out models in the Oval Office.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.

As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.

The tunnel may be in profit but what about the rest of the South-Western USA without cheap labour from South of the Border?
Not only the SW. During Bush père's presidency, there was a serious crackdown on undocumented migrant labour and the orchards of the Washington and Oregon were left without workers, and the crop on the trees and ready for picking. At considerable public expense, the National Guard was enlisted to bring the apple crop in that year. And, as several restaurant and food writers have noted, kitchens everywhere in the US would empty, and restaurant prices rise.
Cheap labor equals immoral profits. Better to pay people a living wage.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
(Copying this over from the "Women's Marches" thread.)

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I heard about this yesterday.

"INDIVISIBLE: A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR RESISTING THE TRUMP AGENDA. Former congressional staffers reveal best practices for making Congress listen." (Indivisible Guide)

I've skimmed through it. Basically, how to effectively interact with your Congress peeps, and how to organize a local group. Available in English and Spanish; and in HTML, printer-friendly, and downloadable formats.


 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Sorry chaps. I was being telegraphic and witlessly expecting you to differentiate. I'm not proposing tunnels. Getting a $25bn wall built by tollbooths or import tariffs (I'd do both if I were Trump, lost opportunity there!) will drive the people traffickers underground as in the movie Sicario.

Fruit picking will become roboticized after a new class of American labour arises. Chain gangs.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Chain gangs are nothing new in Arizona.
[Frown]

(The best -- only? -- good news to come out of this past November's election was that Arpaio lost his bid for a seventh term as sheriff.)
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.

As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.

More Mexicans are going south than north.
It's my understanding that this fluctuates both in an annual cycle and also in longer wavelengths. Plus too, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to puzzle out why more Mexicans than the patterns predict would be getting out of Dodge right now.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
The Pew Research Center estimates that immigration from Mexico to the US fell sharply by >50% from the 1995-2000 period to 2005-2010 and has declined further since then; flows the other way doubled over the same interval to nearly equal immigration, then fell again but not as fast as immigration, leaving net migration out of the US over 2009-2014.

The report ascribes these changes to the effects of the Great Recession and stricter enforcement of US immigration laws.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
From the Guardian on Trump's refugee ban -


"Trump’s Executive Order claims that “the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred,” including those who perpetrate “forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own.” Fair enough.

But, what if such a person learned those heinous lessons while he was already in the United States? And what if such a person ran for office? And what if such a person became the president of the United States? How do we protect America then?"
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Not that I wish it on him, but surely someone is going to take a potshot at Pussygrabber, sooner rather than later....

IJ
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
It's his side that has the guns, isn't it?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
It's his side that has the guns, isn't it?

By and large, the NRA types didn't vote for Hillary.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Not that I wish it on him, but surely someone is going to take a potshot at Pussygrabber, sooner rather than later....

IJ

Not that I wish it on him, but it's a high stress job and he doesn't look well ...
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Apparently the incompetent ones crafted the "banning of Muslims but not Christians...wink wink...from countries not involved in 9/11 but using 9/11 as a pretext" executive order without talking to lawyers, or somebody involved in economics.

Hundreds of thousands of green card holders will be unable to get out of the country or back into the country.

People who become citizens of another country after fleeing one of these countries won't be allowed in.

Going to cost a few hundred million to the economy this thing.

But, hey, fools who think they don't know anybody are yelling "YEAH BUT IF IT STOPS ONE" which is complete and utter horsehockey but, you know, evidence based decision making is not in play here.


**

BTW, to the idea of toll booths on the Mexican border - good luck with that. ANYTHING that slows down trade costs the US economy billions a day. This ain't getting done. They'll put up a token area, film it, and then say something about "the evil Dems stopped us from making this larger" and run on that for years. The wall is an election tool and won't happen.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Trying to sound something of a positive on what many seem to regard as a hopelessly undesirable situation. We in this Country, of all places, would do well to remember that on two signicant occasions the US, while pursuing an isolationist policy, came to our aid when we most needed it.

We cannot unhappen 9/11 and all that has followed, and still is following on from that, be it right or be it wrong. Also putin is going to be around for a lot longer than trump and no one really seems to know what his game is. Just saying.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
BTW, to the idea of toll booths on the Mexican border - good luck with that. ANYTHING that slows down trade costs the US economy billions a day. This ain't getting done.

Not that I'm encouraging it, but surely electronic tolling would have no, or neglibible, impact? And CREATE JOBS in infrastructure and back-office processing! [Roll Eyes]

We have no cash booths anymore on our tolls.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Og wrote:

quote:
BTW, to the idea of toll booths on the Mexican border - good luck with that. ANYTHING that slows down trade costs the US economy billions a day. This ain't getting done. They'll put up a token area, film it, and then say something about "the evil Dems stopped us from making this larger" and run on that for years. The wall is an election tool and won't happen.

I agree. It was never even clear to me what exactly Trump's wall was supposed to entail. A total barrier that would stop all human traffic between Mexico and the US? There's no way you could put that up without seriously kamikazi-ing the American economy. If Trump tried that, congressional Republicans would suddenly announce themselves convinced that he's a Russian spy, or whatever contrivance they needed to launch an impeachment.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Ignore me...forgot about foot traffic.

Perhaps we can chip everyone.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I have started to read Sinclair Lewis's book "It Can't Happen Here".
It is a curious piece of work, varying between humour and material which sounds very topical now.
One passage includes the argument that the US must defend its "shores against all the alien gangs of international racketeers..."

I am forming a suspicion that at some time someone has shown Trump this book, and he thought it something to imitate!

[ 28. January 2017, 20:41: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
For some reason, the people choosing the snatches of John Hurt's work, have picked the bit of I Claudius in which Caligula berates the Senate for taking him at his word in not voting him a triumph.

I cannot but feel that this sprang to mind for some topical reason.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I'm sure you've all seen variations of this, but I found this a neat summation of Trump's choice of countries to ban people from:

quote:
According to statistics tallied by the conservative-leaning Cato Institute, not one American was killed on US soil by citizens from any of those countries between 1975 and 2015.

However, the same set of statistics show that nearly 3000 Americans were killed by citizens from Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt and Turkey in the same time period — with the bulk of those killed being victims of the September 11 attacks. Yet, people from those four countries are still able to apply for US visas and travel permits.

I'm sure Trump has some alternative facts somewhere [Roll Eyes] , but it's so transparently obvious that this is nothing more than a dog whistle, not a genuine protective measure, with the countries he likes being excluded.

But he's hardly the first politician to rely on the fact that many Americans wouldn't have the first clue about different countries in the region, or any of the politics of the region. The whole "Saddam might help Al-Qaeda" nonsense was built on the alternative fact that all Muslims are alike.

[ 28. January 2017, 22:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
We're all being quiet about the obvious, Orpheo, but I'll mention it again lest it be forgotten ... the countries from which immigration is not banned, though majority Muslim, are all countries in which Trump and his companies -- the ones he doesn't operate, but owns, remember -- have massive investment. He has no investments in the countries from which travel is banned.

John
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
BTW, to the idea of toll booths on the Mexican border - good luck with that. ANYTHING that slows down trade costs the US economy billions a day. This ain't getting done.

Not that I'm encouraging it, but surely electronic tolling would have no, or neglibible, impact? And CREATE JOBS in infrastructure and back-office processing! [Roll Eyes]

We have no cash booths anymore on our tolls.

That's not going to work with truck loads of trade goods. Canadians and Americans near the border can tell you what happens when something goes wrong. Hundreds of million in lost revenue in a single day.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Now getting word that the National Security Council, that group that advises the President on security issues, will no longer have the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on it (i.e. an actual military man) nor will it have on it the Director of National Intelligence (the guy with the spooks). But it will have the guy who runs Breitbart.

So basically everybody at the meeting is a yes man to Trump or a Nazi

Incompetent

Completely & Utterly & of course now evern more dangerously Incompetent
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
orfeo--

My understanding of "dog whistle" saying or doing something that Your Sort Of People will understand, and others (hopefully) won't. Often used to gain the support of a crowd, especially in politics.

But the immigration situation isn't "just a dog whistle". People are *already* being kept out of the US, due to T's executive order--even people who are legal residents. (Have visas, green cards, etc.) And legal residents are being advised not to leave, because they may not be able to come back. And people responsible for directly enforcing it haven't been given sufficient instructions yet, so they're making it up as they go along. It's been on NPR today.

ISTM he's carving up and reshaping reality the way he likes. And to his benefit. Like the strong man leaders, present and past. We need to put him, Putin, Kim Jun Un (?), and other such in a nice vacation mansion, far from everyone else, where they can sit and play tin soldiers, Stratego, Battleship, etc.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
rolyn--

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Trying to sound something of a positive on what many seem to regard as a hopelessly undesirable situation. We in this Country, of all places, would do well to remember that on two signicant occasions the US, while pursuing an isolationist policy, came to our aid when we most needed it.

We cannot unhappen 9/11 and all that has followed, and still is following on from that, be it right or be it wrong. Also putin is going to be around for a lot longer than trump and no one really seems to know what his game is. Just saying.

Thank you for this, especially the first paragraph. [Smile]
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
We're all being quiet about the obvious, Orpheo, but I'll mention it again lest it be forgotten ... the countries from which immigration is not banned, though majority Muslim, are all countries in which Trump and his companies -- the ones he doesn't operate, but owns, remember -- have massive investment. He has no investments in the countries from which travel is banned.

John

The executive order says
quote:
I hereby proclaim that the immigrant and nonimmigrant entry into the United States of aliens from countries referred to in section 217(a)(12) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12), would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and I hereby suspend entry into the United States, as immigrants and nonimmigrants, of such persons for 90 days from the date of this order
8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12) is part of the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015, which directed the Secretaries of Homeland Security and State to exclude from the visa waiver program Iraqi and Syrian nationals and anyone who has been in Iraq or Syria since March 1 2011, and to determine whether other countries should be added to the list. The current list of 7 (Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia, and Yemen) has been the same since the Obama administration added the last 3 on February 18 2016.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
orfeo--

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But he's hardly the first politician to rely on the fact that many Americans wouldn't have the first clue about different countries in the region, or any of the politics of the region. The whole "Saddam might help Al-Qaeda" nonsense was built on the alternative fact that all Muslims are alike.

At its base, it was built on Bush-43's desperately wanting to avenge Saddam's attempt on Bush-41's life, and telling his staff to find a connection. Some of that may have been due to caring about his dad; but Bush-43 has major father issues, as shown throughout his presidency.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
orfeo--

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But he's hardly the first politician to rely on the fact that many Americans wouldn't have the first clue about different countries in the region, or any of the politics of the region. The whole "Saddam might help Al-Qaeda" nonsense was built on the alternative fact that all Muslims are alike.

At its base, it was built on Bush-43's desperately wanting to avenge Saddam's attempt on Bush-41's life, and telling his staff to find a connection. Some of that may have been due to caring about his dad; but Bush-43 has major father issues, as shown throughout his presidency.
Well, I've seen one fairly detailed documentary that doesn't quite paint that father/son picture, although that may have contributed. The way the documentary presented it, Bush Sr said no to the neocons who wanted to push into Iraq after the liberation of Kuwait. Bush Sr was very clear in his mind that the purpose of that war was to remove Iraq from Kuwait, not to remove Saddam from Iraq.

And so, as the documentary presented it, the key thing was not so much Bush Jr himself as it was the people that Bush Sr had frustrated, who wanted to achieve their original goal of ousting Saddam. They had influence with Bush Jr that they had lacked with Bush Sr.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
orfeo--

If the people Bush-41 frustrated are the ones that Bush-43 brought into his cabinet--Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft, I think--that ties things together nicely. The various media I saw said that, due to his father issues*, B-43 wanted to bring back his father's cabinet and do better than his father.

So if he wanted Saddam for his own reasons, and the cabinet wanted Saddam for their reasons, and add in the occurrence of 9/11, then the pieces came together...

*One example, from TV news at the time: At some point in his presidency, B-43 was outside a building (the White House?), getting ready to go in. A reporter asked if he had sought his father's advice. He stopped for a moment, upset. Then he coldly said, "I appeal to a Higher Father".
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
All this reminds me of the crazy English Kings and Russian Czars.

Democracy? Where?
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
In another executive action, Trump has signed the Trans-Pacific Partnership into oblivion. In one sense, I'm happy. I never liked the agreement: to my way of thinking it gave away Aust (and that of all the others as well) sovereignty in favour of the US. But it took years and years of negotiation, all wiped away with no consultation at all. I gather that virtually no notice was given to the other treaty partners.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Another thing that this reminds me of from the days here in Toronto of Rob Ford:

the almost word for word explanation talking points used by people to defend an action.

On the Muslim Ban thing, the talking points were/are:

a) Obama did it too (actually he just halted visa applications from Iraq for a few months and applied some resources until the backlog got taken care of)

b) Its not a Muslim Ban (Ruddy Gulliani on Fox News Saturday night said the intent was how to do a Muslim ban legally)

c) If it stops 1 terrorist attack its worth it (No evidence of terrorist attacks by people from those countries - & lets just ignore the obvious gun control application)

Trump screws up - talking points for Trumpkins put out by Facebook & Fox News - talking points said verbatim on Twitter and comment boards. The next 4 years is going to be this sort of thing weekly if not daily.

As we learned up here, the only effective way to deal with the lying is to act as an opposition. Call the lies out. Oppose the talking points head on. Take the opportunity when you can in person to talk one on one with people about what is happening. Eventually, if you are consistent on what you support and what you oppose, all they are left with are platitudes "Well Rob is for the real people!" & insults.

[ 29. January 2017, 14:10: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
Venezuelan economist Andres Rondon wrote an interesting opinion piece in the Washington Post about how to combat populism reflecting on the experience with Chavez in his home country. I think he is more or less saying don't engage in populist tactics to defeat populists such as Trump.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But it took years and years of negotiation, all wiped away with no consultation at all. I gather that virtually no notice was given to the other treaty partners.

TPP wasn't in force yet. It hadn't been ratified by the US, both candidates spoke against it during the election campaigns, and it did not enjoy much support in Congress.

It's far from clear to me that it was going to go anywhere anyway.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Venezuelan economist Andres Rondon wrote an interesting opinion piece in the Washington Post about how to combat populism reflecting on the experience with Chavez in his home country. I think he is more or less saying don't engage in populist tactics to defeat populists such as Trump.

Essential reading. Thanks Alt Wally.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Here's something worrying about the border agents behaviour with regard to judges' rulings.

From the Guardian

Trying to take green cards...

But also, I am reminded of a piece by Alistair Cooke in his letter from America once, about the British troops having shot colonial people in Boston, and the way that the place was immediately full of lawyers seeking to represent the victims, because that was what america was like.

[ 29. January 2017, 19:14: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But it took years and years of negotiation, all wiped away with no consultation at all. I gather that virtually no notice was given to the other treaty partners.

TPP wasn't in force yet. It hadn't been ratified by the US, both candidates spoke against it during the election campaigns, and it did not enjoy much support in Congress.

It's far from clear to me that it was going to go anywhere anyway.

And of course, Sanders opposed it as well. The other signatory countries really had to see it coming, given the candidates who were dominating the primaries for months on end.

And Gee D's admission of also being opposed to the TPP reminds me of a tendency I've noticed among those Trump opponents whose views intersect with his, ie. admit that you agree with him on a particular policy, but say that you don't like the way he's going to do it. But it's not always clear how much daylight there really is between Trump's proposals and those of his left-wing critics.

I've heard some Canadian protectionists say recently "Oh yeah, I wanna rip up NAFTA too, but the problem is, Trump's just gonna try to screw over Canada in the negotiations."

But, the fact of the matter, any POTUS is going to try to "screw over Canada" in a re-negotiated NAFTA, because trying to get as much for his own country, while giving up as little as possible to the other country, is pretty much the mandate of a negotiator. If he DOES cede ground to your side, it's because your negotiators played their cards right, not because he was altrusitically motivated by a desire to make things work out better for your economy.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Extreme vetting: a process where you completely give up vetting because you find it all too hard and decide to just automatically say "No". Even to people who have been vetted.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
In the spirit of putting our money where our support is, today my husband signed us up for AARP, and Planned Parenthood, and the ACLU. He reports that the ACLU site is sold out of merch. All tee shirts are sold out in all sizes, the mugs, etc. All snapped up by new members.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Extreme vetting: a process where you completely give up vetting because you find it all too hard and decide to just automatically say "No". Even to people who have been vetted.

That's not an argument, it's just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Extreme vetting: a process where you completely give up vetting because you find it all too hard and decide to just automatically say "No". Even to people who have been vetted.

That's not an argument, it's just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
???
 
Posted by Ultracrepidarian (# 9679) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
The executive order says
quote:
I hereby proclaim that the immigrant and nonimmigrant entry into the United States of aliens from countries referred to in section 217(a)(12) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12), would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and I hereby suspend entry into the United States, as immigrants and nonimmigrants, of such persons for 90 days from the date of this order
8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12) is part of the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015, which directed the Secretaries of Homeland Security and State to exclude from the visa waiver program Iraqi and Syrian nationals and anyone who has been in Iraq or Syria since March 1 2011, and to determine whether other countries should be added to the list. The current list of 7 (Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia, and Yemen) has been the same since the Obama administration added the last 3 on February 18 2016.
This is interesting. Does that mean that a peculiar legal way around the problem (in the short term at least) would be for the government of some nation in the visa waiver program (Germany? New Zealand?) to give full time employment for a short period of time for people acutely affected by the ban?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Extreme vetting: a process where you completely give up vetting because you find it all too hard and decide to just automatically say "No". Even to people who have been vetted.

That's not an argument, it's just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
???
Sigh. I am surrounded by Philistines. It's a reference to a Monty Python sketch. The idea here being that not vetting at all isn't vetting, because ... sigh. If you have to explain a joke it ruins it.

[ 29. January 2017, 20:29: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Sorry, I'm afraid the reference sailed right over my head.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sorry, I'm afraid the reference sailed right over my head.

Kids these days.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sorry, I'm afraid the reference sailed right over my head.

Kids these days.
My mother will be delighted to hear I'm still a kid. At my birthday dinner on Saturday, she complained I was making her feel old.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sorry, I'm afraid the reference sailed right over my head.

Kids these days.
My mother will be delighted to hear I'm still a kid. At my birthday dinner on Saturday, she complained I was making her feel old.
Ask her about Monty Python.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I think she was too busy at the time raising a small child. It's her kid brother who provided some of the relevant education. I have memories of watching the Holy Grail thanks to him.

[ 29. January 2017, 21:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Extreme vetting: a process where you completely give up vetting because you find it all too hard and decide to just automatically say "No". Even to people who have been vetted.

That's not an argument, it's just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
???
Sigh. I am surrounded by Philistines. It's a reference to a Monty Python sketch. The idea here being that not vetting at all isn't vetting, because ... sigh. If you have to explain a joke it ruins it.
I got it right away, but I don't want to start an argument.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I got it right away, but I don't want to start an argument.

Yes you do.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Extreme vetting: a process where you completely give up vetting because you find it all too hard and decide to just automatically say "No". Even to people who have been vetted.

That's not an argument, it's just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
No it isn't.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
You should really clarify if this is the 5 minute argument, or the full half hour.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Wassa madda Torquemada?

Ben Elton reckons that British comedy was sterile, sexist and racist before he came along and rescued it like some sort of messianic figure, but that's a topic for another thread.

What I would like to know is whether anyone has found a defence from the Administration of its exclusion of Saudi Arabia and Egypt from the list of muslim majority countries whose people are banned from entering the USA. I know the obvious answers from anti-Trump people and sensible republicans. I'm interested in what the Administration is saying. Just a reference will do, or a link if you're sexy.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Jordan, bloody Jordan? How can you not put Jordan on there? Have of bloody Al Qaeda in Iraq and ISIS are from bloody Jordan. One of their prisons was the incubators of the whole thing.

Black Flags:The Rise of ISIS by Joby Warrick is my source.

sorry: Yes I am a doctor, but don't call me Shirley.

[ 30. January 2017, 00:23: Message edited by: simontoad ]
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Venezuelan economist Andres Rondon wrote an interesting opinion piece in the Washington Post about how to combat populism reflecting on the experience with Chavez in his home country. I think he is more or less saying don't engage in populist tactics to defeat populists such as Trump.

No institutional experience of dictatorship in the US makes the information from this source important but not automatically applicable.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

And Gee D's admission of also being opposed to the TPP reminds me of a tendency I've noticed among those Trump opponents whose views intersect with his, ie. admit that you agree with him on a particular policy, but say that you don't like the way he's going to do it. But it's not always clear how much daylight there really is between Trump's proposals and those of his left-wing critics.

It bespeaks an attitude very much at odds with his message on Australia Day (written by someone whose previous work was writing detergent commercials, I'd say). An attitude that allies and friends do not matter to him.

Is admitting opposition to Trump already an admission of a crime?
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
quote:
Most candidates want to win the election so that they can become president, but it seems like Donald Trump wanted to become president so that he could win the election.
From 'He's Going to Continue to Create Chaos' in the Atlantic.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Trump gave a message on Australia Day??
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:


Is admitting opposition to Trump already an admission of a crime? [/QB]

There are already rumors that airport authorities are checking Facebook and Twitter when they detain people, to see if they oppose the PG. I know of people who are planning to travel overseas, and are already deleting their Twitter accounts.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Yes, written to our Prime Minister. I assume that he would do the same with most countries and it would all be arranged in his office. He then picks on a messenger. This is the message with some commentary interspersed.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Venezuelan economist Andres Rondon wrote an interesting opinion piece in the Washington Post about how to combat populism reflecting on the experience with Chavez in his home country. I think he is more or less saying don't engage in populist tactics to defeat populists such as Trump.

No institutional experience of dictatorship in the US makes the information from this source important but not automatically applicable.
Well, no experience in dictatorship for white Americans. Black Americans, on the other hand, lived under a police state for three centuries, a situation that only ended within living memory.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Black Americans, on the other hand, lived under a police state for three centuries, a situation that only ended within living memory. [/QB]

You might read
The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander. It's about mass incarceration of primarily African-Americans in for-profit prisons as well as the over policing of African Americans. The police state is far from over. Chilling.

sabine
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Venezuelan economist Andres Rondon wrote an interesting opinion piece in the Washington Post about how to combat populism reflecting on the experience with Chavez in his home country. I think he is more or less saying don't engage in populist tactics to defeat populists such as Trump.

No institutional experience of dictatorship in the US makes the information from this source important but not automatically applicable.
Well, no experience in dictatorship for white Americans. Black Americans, on the other hand, lived under a police state for three centuries, a situation that only ended within living memory.
That's why I used the word institutional. Courts, army, police, media, education system, churches - none have a history of being co-opted by a dictatorship. Its thus a very different ball game then the Chavez situation. Not to say they can't all be co-opted but the general "Don't tread on me" nature of white USA since its inception provides a very different atmosphere for a demagogic populist attempting to unbalance the checks and balances system.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
Just came from marching at LAX in protest of the Muslim ban. The press estimates the crowd at 4000-- I couldn't say-- I'm a shortie so all I know is that there were people all around me! Very, very peaceful march. Even the travelers who were no doubt inconvenienced by the traffic and difficulty getting thru the crowd were positive and supportive, stopping to explain to their children what was going on, to take video, and to cheer us on.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
take video, huh (sort of tongue in cheek rather than sinister... I hope)
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
I did. Posted to fb
 
Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :
 
I read somewhere in the British press, but annoyingly can't find it now, that Trump's actions are enough to get him impreached already. Is that just wishful thinking?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
What about blowback? Gulp.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
I read somewhere in the British press, but annoyingly can't find it now, that Trump's actions are enough to get him impreached already. Is that just wishful thinking?

Probably, because while I have no doubt he's stepped over the line several times already, you have to get an impeachment past a Republican Congress--and while I was once Republican (we'll see if I can ever use that name again), the current crop of leaders includes so many ass-kissers and ineffectual mmrppphrmmophmmmrmmph that it'll take something truly outrageous to galvanize them into action. Witness the way they dithered about preventing and later getting rid of him as a nominated candidate.

I'm beginning to suspect it'll be mental health grounds that will finally bring him down. I'd love to see a brain scan on the man--or more precisely, to have an Alzheimer's specialist see one.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oh, I think His Extreme Ghastliness could probably manage something truly outrageous, perhaps sooner rather than later.

The quicker he goes, the better for the World, I think.

IJ
 
Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :
 
There seem to be a few things going the rounds on the internet about his mental health. How could he be removed on those grounds, if no one managed to stop him getting this far in the first place? Would he have to do something totally beyond the pale (if what he's done already isn't that) which leads to a lot of death and destruction before it happens.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
How do you persuade him to have a brain scan? Assure him it's research to show how smart he is?

It's going to be a beautiful brain scans, yuge, no-one has had such a beautiful brain scan before!
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I had a brain scan in December 2015, which showed I had a brain tumour as big as an Orange!

Make of that what you will....

....but, seriously, a brain tumour (which might well be asymptomatic in physical terms) may well lead to personality disorders.

That's my excuse, anyway.

IJ
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
The PG in Chief has been exquisitely careful, to date, to avoid any serious medical evaluation. He has also sedulously concealed his tax returns from the public. I am certain that there's dynamite lurking in both these areas, things that would make him unelectable (that is to say, even more unelectable) or that would send him to prison. Now he is president it is very unlikely he can be forced to reveal any of this.

The GOP knows they are chained to this man by the ankle, with the line wrapped around their necks. They will cling to him, keeping him in power, for as long as they can without regard for the rest of the populace. Because the moment he goes over the side they're going with him, into howling oblivion, and they cannot bear that.
 
Posted by nickel (# 8363) on :
 
I imagine both our political parties are keeping careful track of grounds for impeachment. But, they need to carefully consider two factors. First, timing. Got to give Trump time to fail (but what if, gasp, he succeeds in gaining jobs for lower middle class? Doubtful, but ???). Second, Pence. Personally I think I'd rather stick with a man who is clearly a buffoon, than a man smart enough to hide it.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
For you delight and delectation.

tl;dr (though it's well worth reading the whole, horrifying article)

Trump is disposable. Pence is who matters.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by nickel:
I imagine both our political parties are keeping careful track of grounds for impeachment. But, they need to carefully consider two factors. First, timing. Got to give Trump time to fail (but what if, gasp, he succeeds in gaining jobs for lower middle class? Doubtful, but ???). Second, Pence. Personally I think I'd rather stick with a man who is clearly a buffoon, than a man smart enough to hide it.

trump has already failed. His personal behaviour has exposed his country to global contempt and ridicule for having elected him, and with a single executive order he has renewed and enhanced the country's status as a terrorist target. What more do you want?
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Pence was my Governor. He's ambitious but not that smart. He was once described by both a childhood friend and again by a former teacher (a nun) as the little boy who tried to be the best little boy.

Even as President, he would continue to be the one who repeats the talking points ad nauseum. Question is, who will be calling the shots and sending him out there with instructions?

sabine
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Pence was my Governor. He's ambitious but not that smart. He was once described by both a childhood friend and again by a former teacher (a nun) as the little boy who tried to be the best little boy.

Even as President, he would continue to be the one who repeats the talking points ad nauseum. Question is, who will be calling the shots and sending him out there with instructions?

sabine

That is easy. The Republican Party. With Trump, they are running alongside the clown car. With Pence, they would be in the passenger seat, navigating.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
[Big Grin] Right you are. And it will be the most right of the rights, too (not to be confused with "correct.")

My previous question was somewhat rhetorical.

sabine

[ 30. January 2017, 18:18: Message edited by: sabine ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
For you delight and delectation.

tl;dr (though it's well worth reading the whole, horrifying article)

Trump is disposable. Pence is who matters.

And, as the first comment below, and the post above say, horrifying. I thought "The Handmaid's Tale" was OTT.

But the hopeful stuff is the number of comments from the escapees.

[ 30. January 2017, 18:22: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by nickel:
Second, Pence. Personally I think I'd rather stick with a man who is clearly a buffoon, than a man smart enough to hide it.

trump has already failed. His personal behaviour has exposed his country to global contempt and ridicule for having elected him, and with a single executive order he has renewed and enhanced the country's status as a terrorist target. What more do you want?
I think you underestimate the degree to which a Muslim Ban has become a standard Republican position. Take this guy, for instance:

quote:
After the terrorist attacks in Paris, Republican Gov. Mike Pence said Monday that he is suspending the resettlement of Syrian refugees in Indiana.

He joined governors from at least 15 other states, including those from Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, Ohio and Texas, who said they won't accept Syrian refugees after reports suggest one of the Paris bombers may have posed as a Syrian refugee.

"Indiana has a long tradition of opening our arms and homes to refugees from around the world but, as governor, my first responsibility is to ensure the safety and security of all Hoosiers," Pence said in a statement.

He said he was directing all state agencies to stop resettling Syrian refugees in Indiana until the federal government can provide assurances that "proper security measures are in place."

Policy-wise, Donald Trump is not an aberration. The major thing that distinguishes him from other national Republican politicians is his buffoonishness and incompetence. (Sometimes not even that.)
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Well, Pence lost that fight in Indiana.

First the Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Indianapolis (where Catholic Charities is a resettlement agency) went to visit him and basically said. "We won't stop resettling refugees. God bless you."

And then the other refugee resettlement agency (under Church World Service) sued Pence and won.

Pence loves to tell people he is "a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican--in that order, " but he is hollow as a politician and just a toady for ideologues or anyone who will pull him up a notch.

sabine
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
So there is at least a non-zero chance that Trump is going to get up there tomorrow and announce that he is actually nominating three judges to become Supreme Court justices in a new 11-member court, right?

It would knock the immigration EO right off the front page, it would contribute to the chaos that may eventually drive the opposition to fatigue, it's technically legal, and they could use it to further delegitimize the judge who issued the EO injunction (We're just trying to take the courts back from activist judges who would rather help dangerous people than Americans!).

I'm not saying that it is highly likely to happen, but if it does, you heard it here first. At the very least, I would be shocked if it hasn't been thrown around in a staff meeting.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So there is at least a non-zero chance that Trump is going to get up there tomorrow and announce that he is actually nominating three judges to become Supreme Court justices in a new 11-member court, right?

That tactic worked for the Governor of Arizona.
[Frown]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
Well this should get interesting.

quote:
Acting Attorney General Sally Q. Yates, a holdover from the Obama administration, ordered the Justice Department on Monday not to defend President Trump’s executive order on immigration in court.

“I am responsible for ensuring that the positions we take in court remain consistent with this institution’s solemn obligation to always seek justice and stand for what is right,” Ms. Yates wrote in a letter to Justice Department lawyers. “At present, I am not convinced that the defense of the executive order is consistent with these responsibilities nor am I convinced that the executive order is lawful.”

So ten days in and we're already in Saturday Night Massacre territory. Trump does have the authority to fire her, but there's one catch:

quote:
Mr. Trump has the authority to fire Ms. Yates, but as the top Senate-confirmed official at the Justice Department, she is the only one authorized to sign foreign surveillance warrants, an essential function at the department.
I think Ms. Yates just transformed Jeff Session's Senate hearings into a referendum on Trump's immigration order.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
I think the time for underestimating Trump is well and truly over. He has made it all the way to the Oval Office with the world's laughter ringing in his ears. Let's keep laughing, but let's stop fooling ourselves that he's an idiot or incompetent. It's not going to help.

Let's also pray that nothing like the Weather Underground appears to oppose him, or the Black Panthers. I think that some on the right are looking for any excuse to attack people, and America is chock-full of weapons.
 
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Trump does have the authority to fire her, but there's one catch...

Seems he wasn't too concerned...
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So there is at least a non-zero chance that Trump is going to get up there tomorrow and announce that he is actually nominating three judges to become Supreme Court justices in a new 11-member court, right?

That tactic worked for the Governor of Arizona.
[Frown]

God knows Trump doesn't care (or know, I think) whether something is even possible before he orders it. So yes, he may try it. I rather wish he would, as it would infuriate Congress, which is the only authority with the power to set the number of justices. The more he pulls Congress' tail, the faster we'll get an impeachment.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Policy-wise, Donald Trump is not an aberration.
Quinnipiac U. polling data shows about half the country supports the immigration executive order.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Policy-wise, Donald Trump is not an aberration.
Quinnipiac U. polling data shows about half the country supports the immigration executive order.
Maybe half of clairvoyant American voters?

"The national poll was conducted between January 5 – 9."
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Policy-wise, Donald Trump is not an aberration.
Quinnipiac U. polling data shows about half the country supports the immigration executive order.
Maybe half of clairvoyant American voters?

"The national poll was conducted between January 5 – 9."

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Donald Trump hadn't issued any Executive Orders before January 5.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This article from the Atlantic by David Frum is long but free. And utterly terrifying.
 
Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Unless I'm very much mistaken, Donald Trump hadn't issued any Executive Orders before January 5.

I thought I typed the word intent at the end of my sentence but had left that off. The most recent polling data unfortunately seems to show about half the country supports the substance of this directive. That is probably more accurate phrasing. This does not appear to be an aberration.
 
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I thought I typed the word intent at the end of my sentence but had left that off.

Really? Did you leave it off the headline of the article you linked to, also?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
simontoad--

The Black Panthers are still around, including the New Black Panthers.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Trump does have the authority to fire her, but there's one catch...

Seems he wasn't too concerned...
Indeed. I gave it 50-50 odds, given I'm not sure Trump knows what a FISA court and, if he knew, likely assumes he could just work around it. What's more interesting is his replacement of the head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement without any explanation. "Night of the Long Ties" perhaps?
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Does his going back to his previous position as deputy director say anything? It seems odd to me to demote someone back to a previous position instead of getting rid of them, or moving them to a different agency/department...
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
If I were in the States I would be writing to whomever I could write to, asking them to:

Insist that everyone who belongs on the National Security Council is kept on it.

Insist that Trump's proposed inquiry into voting irregularities be bipartisan. (And if possible that it widen its remit to include voter suppression, but that goes beyond holding the line and into fighting back).
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Trump coming out this morning saying he is going to keep enforcing the Obame EO on LGBTQ rights.

No this isn't fake news.

[ 31. January 2017, 11:08: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Well, that's a relief. But don't relax, folks. Steve Bannon is emerging as the true power behind the throne (Geo. Washington must be spinning in his grave), and I can't believe that LGBT human rights would be something Bannon goes for.

sabine
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
How long, I wonder, before Bannon executes a coup d'etat, and consigns Mango Man to the bonfire?

IJ
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Well, that's a relief. But don't relax, folks. Steve Bannon is emerging as the true power behind the throne (Geo. Washington must be spinning in his grave), and I can't believe that LGBT human rights would be something Bannon goes for.

sabine

I dunno. I follow a bit of the so-called Alt-Right media(albeit not Bannon's Breitbart) and one thing that is quite noticable about them, in a Dog That Didn't Bark sort of a way, is that, unlike the old Religious Right, they don't seem to worry much about GLBQT issues at all. Whenever the topic does come up, in fact, it's usually in the context of saying how we need to keep out Muslims because they're gonna persecute gays(see Trump's convention speech).

Not that I think they really care deeply about protecting gay rights, apart from having it as a convenient princess for their anti-immigration dragon-slaying epic, just that I don't think rolling back gay rights is really a significant part of their agenda, if at all.

My main concern with Trump and gay-rights involves SCOTUS appointments, because he HAS promised to appoint judges who want to discard Roe V. Wade(this likely as a sop to the aforementioned Religious Right), and I would think it almost impossible to find judges who want to overturn abortion rights while keeping gay rights intact.

[ 31. January 2017, 13:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Is the USA really still a democracy? The imposition of the orders of one man, the moneyed interests who run things. The selection of non-elected people to impose the executive orders.

I am certainly tired of the cold war label "leader of the free world". Leader of a declining democracy is more apt. The USA looks more like Italy under Silvio_Berlusconi. Creation of chaos to maintain control, enriching of self, non-social responses to others, pushing all the boundaries of decency and law.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
The imposition of the orders of one man, yes, but which man?

President Trump, or shadow-President Bannon?

[Paranoid]

IJ
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
No Prophet wrote:

quote:
The imposition of the orders of one man
Much as I dislike a lot of the executive orders coming from Trump's pen, it's not entirely clear to me if the process itself is that wild a departure from previous protocol. The Executive Orders that Trump is vowing to uphold on gay rights, for example, were issued by one man, ie. Barack Obama.

And my ignorance on this topic is genuine, not rhetorical, as I really don't know exactly when and under what circumstances a president can issue executive orders. I did read somewhere that Bush II and Obama amped up the frequency of EOs considerably, so there might be a bit of blame to go around on this.

[ 31. January 2017, 14:17: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Every president since Geo. Washington has had the ability to issue executive orders. They aren't quite the same as laws from Congress but can carry weight and (as we've seen) do some damage.

The Emancipation Proclamation and The New Deal were executive orders.

sabine

[ 31. January 2017, 14:19: Message edited by: sabine ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
The Independent has published a piece about a diagnosis of malignant narcissism (apparently the limitations on professionals publishing such have been officially removed), and below it are comments of the sort that leave me wanting to wash my eyes out.
Including a claim that 25 million fake votes were cast for 'killery'. This has been exposed as false, but is all over the search engine. (A bit of overkill. I'd have gone for something like 4.3 million, to wipe out the popular vote majority without looking stupid.)

And I heard on the radio, don't remember which, someone claim that Steve Bannon had paid protestors during the campaign last year, which would be interesting if true, since the Trumpists accuse everyone against them of being paid by Soros, showing that they can't conceive of any other way of doing things. I have heard that an executive of Nestle thought the same of protestors against their baby milk tactics. However, I can't find either the claim or a rebuttal on line, so I don't know how true it is.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The imposition of the orders of one man, yes, but which man?

President Trump, or shadow-President Bannon?

[Paranoid]

IJ

So Bannon is today's Ernst Rohm?. Are there long knives in this rhyme? Or do the knives point another direction?

Executive orders. Brings to mind the powers of a king, but not curbed sufficiently by a representative government like they are in a constitutional monarchy because of the pretence that a president is elected.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Here is an article which sets out the worst-case scenario explanation for the events of the weekend and what ordinary people can do about them.

Key points include the fact that the DHS' initial defiance of the courts was a much bigger win even than imposing the immigration restrictions beyond refugees to include visa holders, and the lack of coverage of Bannon's appointment to the NSC Principals committee, coupled with the departure therefrom of the Chiefs of Staff.

quote:
Popular attention must focus less on whether we agree with what the government is doing, and more on whether the system of checks and balances we have in place is working. It is a much bigger deal that the DHS felt they could ignore a federal court than that Trump signed an EO blocking green card holders in the first place. It is a much bigger deal that Trump removed a permanent military presence from the NSC than that he issued a temporary stay on immigration. The immigration ban may be more viscerally upsetting, but the other moves are potentially far more dangerous.


[ 31. January 2017, 15:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Oh God.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
@Eutychus, previous page

Interesting theory, but without resorting to a decoy theory, I think Trump's moves on immigration might be explainable simply as wanting to get the more populist and controversial parts of his agenda out of the way, so they don't clutter up the rest of his term.

If he keeps the ban in place for three months, or whatever it's supposed to be, and then let's it lapse, his base is still gonna lionize him for the rest of his term as The Guy Who Kicked Out A Bunch Of Muslims. But if he waits year to do it, it gets in the way of whatever else he's trying to do at that time.

I've mentioned elsewhere the former Canadian PM's attempt to move the Tel Aviv embassy to Jerusalem. He tried to do that his first week in office. And you may recall that gays-in-the-military(pretty controversial for its day) was among the very first issues that Bill Clinton addressed. I think Trump's tactic here might be along those lines.

[ 31. January 2017, 15:23: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Trump coming out this morning saying he is going to keep enforcing the Obame EO on LGBTQ rights.

Which is an indication that the Bannon faction is presently more influential with Trump than the Pence faction. As Stetson noted, Bannon and his adherents are fairly indifferent to gay rights.

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Much as I dislike a lot of the executive orders coming from Trump's pen, it's not entirely clear to me if the process itself is that wild a departure from previous protocol. The Executive Orders that Trump is vowing to uphold on gay rights, for example, were issued by one man, ie. Barack Obama.

And my ignorance on this topic is genuine, not rhetorical, as I really don't know exactly when and under what circumstances a president can issue executive orders. I did read somewhere that Bush II and Obama amped up the frequency of EOs considerably, so there might be a bit of blame to go around on this.

Executive Orders are essentially the directions that the president gives to the various departments under his control. There's a lot of latitude there, but it's not unlimited. Executive Orders can't violate the Constitution, nor can they be contrary to law. Usually an EO is a president acting within a broad grant of power by Congress. For example, Congress may establish guidelines for immigration and categories for different types of foreign travelers but leaves it to the President (acting through the appropriate agencies) to figure out the fine details.

quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
The Emancipation Proclamation and The New Deal were executive orders.

The Emancipation Proclamation was an Executive Order. The New Deal was a series of programs mostly built on new legislation (FDR had a very cooperative Congress in his first term) and administered via Executive Order. For example, Social Security (probably the best known and longest enduring New Deal agency) was established by the Social Security Act of 1935, a bit of Congressional legislation. Abandoning the gold standard was accomplished by a combination of Executive Order and legislation. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (another fairly well-known New Deal program) was established by the Banking Act of 1933. In short, something as far-reaching and intricate as the New Deal could not have been enacted by Executive Order alone.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Which is an indication that the Bannon faction is presently more influential with Trump than the Pence faction. As Stetson noted, Bannon and his adherents are fairly indifferent to gay rights.

It occurs to me that one way to upset the current Presidency is if Trump gets it into his head that a lot of people believe Bannon pulls his strings. If Trump got the idea that Bannon is believed to be using Trump as a sockpuppet I think Bannon would be out.
It depends whether you think a fundamentalist is more or less scary than a fascist.
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
I have a suggestion. This thread has become very unwieldy. There are various topics in the last thirty-six pages, but it is hard to keep them all straight. Do we have similar threads about the May government? No, there are separate topics on her decisions, activities, and speeches. Maybe it is time to do the same with the Trump gan--I mean, government. Otherwise, the thread is going to get very long over the next four years if he can survive.

No, if you want to talk about the immigration ban, start a new thread.

If you want to talk about the Democratic Party delaying tactics, start a new thread.

If you want to continue to discuss Steve Bannon's influence on the Orange One, start a new thread.

Just saying.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Every president since Geo. Washington has had the ability to issue executive orders. They aren't quite the same as laws from Congress but can carry weight and (as we've seen) do some damage.

The Emancipation Proclamation and The New Deal were executive orders.

Yup. As was putting people in internment camps in WWII. (Japanese and Aleuts. Not sure if there were any others.)

It's part of the whole "checks and balances" system. And it's all in how you use it, and for what.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Every president since Geo. Washington has had the ability to issue executive orders. They aren't quite the same as laws from Congress but can carry weight and (as we've seen) do some damage.

The Emancipation Proclamation and The New Deal were executive orders.

Yup. As was putting people in internment camps in WWII. (Japanese and Aleuts. Not sure if there were any others.)

It's part of the whole "checks and balances" system. And it's all in how you use it, and for what.

GK, did you mean to imply that I was supporting Trump's use of EO? Or that I was trying to paint a certain picture of EOs.?(Hard to tell) I wasn't. I was simply offering a couple of examples after someone questioned the practice as undemocratic.

sabine

[ 01. February 2017, 02:15: Message edited by: sabine ]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Gramps wrote:

quote:
No, if you want to talk about the immigration ban, start a new thread.

If you want to talk about the Democratic Party delaying tactics, start a new thread.

If you want to continue to discuss Steve Bannon's influence on the Orange One, start a new thread.

I see your point, but, given how many Trump related issues we're likely to be discussing in the next few years, your suggestion could lead to the front page of the forum harbouring at least a dozen American political threads at any one time.

That said, I could see something like the immigration ban getting its own thread, because it's an issue with significant implications beyond everyday politics. The ideological dialectic between Pence and Bannon, not so much.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This article from the Atlantic by David Frum is long but free. And utterly terrifying.

The article is utterly terrifying, but is also very informative. For example, it includes the following:

quote:
In the early days of the Trump transition, Nic Dawes, a journalist who has worked in South Africa, delivered an ominous warning to the American media about what to expect. “Get used to being stigmatized as ‘opposition,’ ” he wrote. “The basic idea is simple: to delegitimize accountability journalism by framing it as partisan.”

 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
sabine--

Oh, no, no, no. Sorry. [Hot and Hormonal] I only meant it as another example. Something on the news, last week, mentioned that an executive order was used to do the internment camps. Given what T is doing, I wanted to include that.

Sorry I did it clumsily.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Ostentatiously quoting myself here:

quote:
My main concern with Trump and gay-rights involves SCOTUS appointments, because he HAS promised to appoint judges who want to discard Roe V. Wade(this likely as a sop to the aforementioned Religious Right), and I would think it almost impossible to find judges who want to overturn abortion rights while keeping gay rights intact.

And see the current headlines. Not sure exactly what, if anything, that appointee has said about gay rights, but the article I saw described him as being the second-closest to Scalia on Trump's short list.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This article from the Atlantic by David Frum is long but free. And utterly terrifying.

The article is utterly terrifying, but is also very informative. For example, it includes the following:

quote:
In the early days of the Trump transition, Nic Dawes, a journalist who has worked in South Africa, delivered an ominous warning to the American media about what to expect. “Get used to being stigmatized as ‘opposition,’ ” he wrote. “The basic idea is simple: to delegitimize accountability journalism by framing it as partisan.”

Well, on the face of it, that's pretty much just describing the standard right-wing attitude toward the media, going back at least to Spiro Agnew and the nattering nabobs. Trump might be a little more obnoxious about it, but I don't know if it represents a substantial shift in tactics.

And FWIW, David Frum was a speechwriter for the Bush II administration, where his most notable accomplishment was introducing the phrase "Axis Of Evil" into the political vocabulary. So it's a little funny to see him now posing as the voice of moderation.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
@Stetson - Thanks for the background. It's either a little funny or alarming, depending on how you look it.
 
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :
 
I need some information: Some sources unknown to me as verifiable are posting in Another Place that Trump appointee Bannon needs to pass Congressional oversight to sit on the National Security Council. Is this true?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Pete--

Possibly. MaryLouise posted about it on the "Trumpton" thread in Hell, and there's a link to the pertinent legal code.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
If you google "Does Bannon need to pass Congressional oversight to sit on the National Security Council" you'll see several articles that point out that technically, Bannon has been appointed to the principals committee rather than the NSC and therefore might not need Congressional approval.
 
Posted by MaryLouise (# 18697) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Pete--

Possibly. MaryLouise posted about it on the "Trumpton" thread in Hell, and there's a link to the pertinent legal code.

Although I'm not sure this is not just grasping at straws.

This would seem to be the pertinent clause:

(6) the Secretaries and Under Secretaries of other executive departments and of the military departments, when appointed by the President by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to serve at his pleasure.

This refers to secretaries and undersecretaries of executive or military departments, usually subject to confirmation by their nature. Bannon is neither. He'd be down at the bottom -- other people the president designates, or special advisors.
 
Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
And FWIW, David Frum was a speechwriter for the Bush II administration, where his most notable accomplishment was introducing the phrase "Axis Of Evil" into the political vocabulary. So it's a little funny to see him now posing as the voice of moderation.
Frankly, when I see people from the Bush era White House backing off muttering "whoah, too rich for my blood!" my instinctive response is to conclude that we are well and truly in the brown and smelly stuff.

To paraphrase Malcolm Tucker the next four years are going to be like The Shawshank Redemption, with lots of tunneling through shit and no redemption.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
sabine--

Oh, no, no, no. Sorry. [Hot and Hormonal] I only meant it as another example. Something on the news, last week, mentioned that an executive order was used to do the internment camps. Given what T is doing, I wanted to include that.et tr

Sorry I did it clumsily.

Thanks, GK. I thought maybe this was the case. Plain text can get tricky, esp on long threads with lots of issues. [Smile]

sabine
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This article from the Atlantic by David Frum is long but free. And utterly terrifying.

The article is utterly terrifying, but is also very informative.
Thanks, WH. I waded my way through the entire article. It was well worth the read. It provides a good analysis on how the US (and other Western democracies) could slide in the direction of soft totalitarianism. That is if we are not interrupted by WWIII in the process.

[ 01. February 2017, 22:49: Message edited by: molopata ]
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Covering Trump the Reuters Way

I think this is a wonderful response to the Trump administration from one of the most important news gatherers in the world.

I'm not vouching for the accuracy of this Tl;dr but here goes: We have plenty of experience dealing with administrations like this. Let's just do what we do in places that have always been unfriendly to the press. It works.

On a different tack, I saw a blonde republican state attorney general with a square jaw give a defence of Trump's immigration order on PBS yesterday. He looked like Max Headroom. The weakness of course is blaming the Obama Administration for leaving Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt off the list. Oh, and the whole damn idea in the first place, but the leaving countries out bit is inconsistent within the framework used to justify the ban by Trump and his cronies.

Good Day Sunshine!
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I'm pondering the future of this thread, which is getting multi-faceted and unwieldy as has been observed. Shipmates have absolute freedom to set up separately for serious discussion specific issues which they feel are worthy of some detailed discussion. That will save this thread from becoming a catch-all for serious discussion on anything related to the policies and actions of the new President and/or his administration.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

[ 02. February 2017, 01:42: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Barnabas--

On that topic: I've been looking for the previous version of this thread, the 2016 one, but haven't been able to track it down. My understanding was that it was going to be kept.

Can you provide a link, please?

Thanks! [Smile]
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Barnabas--

On that topic: I've been looking for the previous version of this thread, the 2016 one, but haven't been able to track it down. My understanding was that it was going to be kept.

Can you provide a link, please?

Thanks! [Smile]

I'm obviously not Barnabas, but do you mean this one?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Pigwidgeon--

Yes. Thanks! [Smile]
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
In defence of David Frum, this is not out of step with his recent career. He has for a while now been arguing that the lunatics have taken older the asylum. Or that the GOP sold its soul to the inmates. In many circles he is now viewed a being an apostate.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
I still remember when David Frum was a Tory hack here in Canada. He's really changed his tune in the last few years; I can only assume this is a result of having seen the disasters his fellow conservatives created on both sides of the border at all levels of government when they had the chance.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This may actually be worthy of its own thread: the upcoming plan to alter the law in the US to favor religion. Only Christian religion, I should add.
If this should happen, will it be good for the church? Or not?
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Meanwhile, back on T's phone:

"President Trump Warns Mexico He Might Send U.S. Troops to Take Care of 'Bad Hombres'." (AP, via Time)

Both sides are now denying it was any kind of threat. But the report is from the AP, so it's likely to be accurate.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
So Trump is gutting the regulations put into place after the banking crisis.

Not doing it with a public executive order of course.

How long until his supporters discover nothing has changed and if anything its gotten worse?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
So Trump is gutting the regulations put into place after the banking crisis.

Not doing it with a public executive order of course.

How long until his supporters discover nothing has changed and if anything its gotten worse?

Had they the required intelligence, they would not have voted for him.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This may actually be worthy of its own thread: the upcoming plan to alter the law in the US to favor religion. Only Christian religion, I should add.
If this should happen, will it be good for the church? Or not?

Certainly it will be good for those whose church preaches "My god hates more people than your God."

sabine
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This may actually be worthy of its own thread: the upcoming plan to alter the law in the US to favor religion. Only Christian religion, I should add.
If this should happen, will it be good for the church? Or not?

Certainly it will be good for those whose church preaches "My god hates more people than your God."

sabine

Here's an interesting take on one of the more obvious consequences of repealing the Johnson Amendment:

quote:
If churches can gather money without disclosing their donors – and obviously that degree of privacy protection is required for the free exercise of religion – and spend that money to run political campaigns, then the market is open for foreign as well as domestic corruption. The Russian, Chinese, Saudi, and Iranian governments would all, predictably, either find congregations already recognized by the IRS to use as front groups or incorporate new ones. Of course a group organized as a mosque might not be able to wield much influence without stirring up opposition, but nothing bars the Saudis or the Iranians from paying some stooges to set up a fake Baptist church.
Plus if contributions to churches are tax deductible and contributions to ordinary PACs are not, churches become the preferred method of political campaigning.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
...but nothing bars the Saudis or the Iranians from paying some stooges to set up a fake Baptist church.

Could Westboro Baptist Church have a future after all?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Plus if contributions to churches are tax deductible and contributions to ordinary PACs are not, churches become the preferred method of political campaigning.

Fully co opting the churches from focus on the things of God to focus on the things of man. Although some of these people might not see a difference.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I thought this was worth a separate thread.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Plus if contributions to churches are tax deductible and contributions to ordinary PACs are not, churches become the preferred method of political campaigning.

Fully co opting the churches from focus on the things of God to focus on the things of man. Although some of these people might not see a difference.
It will ( I wish it was only would but it will happen) be interesting to see who can raise more money for political purposes:

hate cloaked in personal redemption

vs.

love cloaked in imperfection
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
In the circles I move in, there are already a number of sorta-churhes, all of which are now champing at the bit to start collecting money. The Pastafarian church and the church of Cthulhu (they have a great hymnal, you wouldn't believe how great) come immediately to mind, and there are a lot more.

[ 04. February 2017, 18:23: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Interesting perspective from a long-time friend of Trump:

"Howard Stern Claims Donald Trump Wants Hillary Clinton to Be President." (Yahoo)

Lots of other insights.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Interesting re the Church of Cthulhu's hymnbook, Brenda.

Full of the Great Old Ones, no?

I'll collect me congeries of iridescent globes on the way out...

IJ
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've had a sudden unfunny thought while thinking about donations to ACLU, probably because I'd just been reading a reminiscence from someone whose grandfather only got out of Germany by the skin of his teeth and an Iron Cross, and whose great grandparents all dies in Treblinka.

Is there any way that Trump could get at the bank accounts of opponents, and either sequester them, or, worse, extract the money from them?
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Doubtless his Russian hacker pals could assist...

[Disappointed]

IJ
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
But Trump is the ACLU's best fund raiser! I've never made a donation to them -- until yesterday. (I also made my first donation to the International Rescue Committee yesterday.)

I haven't donated yet, but I understand that Mike Pence has (inadvertently) been a major fund raiser for Planned Parenthood.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
We have this month joined PP, also the ACLU and the AARP. These are all lobbying groups of some power, and it is sensible to combine our forces. My husband reports that so many people joined the ACLU that their swag is entirely gone -- no more mugs, mouse pads, tees, etc. All the shelves stripped clean by anxious new members.

[ 06. February 2017, 14:56: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Here is the web page for the United Church of Cthulhu. I can't find any hymn material here, but a friend of mine (who wrote many of the hymn lyrics) has been consulted.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Brenda. I think it's time I sought Ordination (or Ordainment) in the FUCC...

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

IJ
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Their Sunday services (usually held at SF conventions) are fully hymnal and very impressive.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Doubtless his Russian hacker pals could assist...

[Disappointed]

IJ

I was thinking about alterations to US law - I said it was unfunny.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
I'm trying to imagine the public discussion that would be happening right now if Trump had said who exactly those American "killers" are.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
This seems eerily relevant...
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
I think this summarizes the Trump Administration as we've seen it so far:

quote:
Mr. Priebus bristles at the perception that he occupies a diminished perch in the West Wing pecking order compared with previous chiefs. But for the moment, Mr. Bannon remains the president’s dominant adviser, despite Mr. Trump’s anger that he was not fully briefed on details of the executive order he signed giving his chief strategist a seat on the National Security Council, a greater source of frustration to the president than the fallout from the travel ban.

<snip>

To pass the time between meetings, Mr. Trump gives quick tours to visitors, highlighting little tweaks he has made after initially expecting he would have to pay for them himself.

Flanking his desk are portraits of Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson. He will linger on the opulence of the newly hung golden drapes, which he told a recent visitor were once used by Franklin D. Roosevelt but in fact were patterned for Bill Clinton. For a man who sometimes has trouble concentrating on policy memos, Mr. Trump was delighted to page through a book that offered him 17 window covering options.

Can't be bothered to read the Executive Orders he's signing, but has an endless enthusiasm for looking through fabric swatches for curtains. Also the bit about how he was fairly restrained until it was explained to him that he was using the taxpayer's money to redecorate, not his own.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
@ Croesos overleaf.

"Court of the Mad King" indeed.

Trump certainly strikes you as someone who can engender fear, but not inspire loyalty. That tends to make for a lot of infighting and backbiting.

[ 07. February 2017, 21:09: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I like this article.

"In our horror, we are missing the point that perhaps Obama has grasped. The Trump “movement” – as Trump likes to call it – died on inauguration day. That row about the numbers of people in Washington’s National Mall? It mattered. For without a mass movement that makes itself physically – and dangerously – felt on the streets, there can be no future for Mussolini-style bluster.

Trump has a stay-at-home electorate of reality tv fans. It is the left who are on the streets. It is his enemies who have the youth, anger and numbers.

Obama is smiling because he knows this is going to be the most ineffectual dictatorship ever – and soon we won’t be worrying about Trump. We will be deriding his incompetence.

Then we can all go surfing."
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Can't be bothered to read the Executive Orders he's signing, but has an endless enthusiasm for looking through fabric swatches for curtains.

If only Nero had had a drapery catalog at his disposal instead of a fiddle while Rome burned . . . .
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I like this article.

"In our horror, we are missing the point that perhaps Obama has grasped. The Trump “movement” – as Trump likes to call it – died on inauguration day. That row about the numbers of people in Washington’s National Mall? It mattered. For without a mass movement that makes itself physically – and dangerously – felt on the streets, there can be no future for Mussolini-style bluster.

Trump has a stay-at-home electorate of reality tv fans. It is the left who are on the streets. It is his enemies who have the youth, anger and numbers.

Obama is smiling because he knows this is going to be the most ineffectual dictatorship ever – and soon we won’t be worrying about Trump. We will be deriding his incompetence.

Then we can all go surfing."

That's wonderful. I read it and I do feel better. Such is my faith in Barack Obama. (Did you see the cold open on Saturday Night Live, in which the PGinChief phones Angela Merkel? Who whimpers into the phone, "Is that my sweet Barack?"
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I like this article.

"In our horror, we are missing the point that perhaps Obama has grasped. The Trump “movement” – as Trump likes to call it – died on inauguration day. That row about the numbers of people in Washington’s National Mall? It mattered. For without a mass movement that makes itself physically – and dangerously – felt on the streets, there can be no future for Mussolini-style bluster.

Trump has a stay-at-home electorate of reality tv fans. It is the left who are on the streets. It is his enemies who have the youth, anger and numbers.

Obama is smiling because he knows this is going to be the most ineffectual dictatorship ever – and soon we won’t be worrying about Trump. We will be deriding his incompetence.

Then we can all go surfing."

Please, God, let it be so.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Can't be bothered to read the Executive Orders he's signing, but has an endless enthusiasm for looking through fabric swatches for curtains.

If only Nero had had a drapery catalog at his disposal instead of a fiddle while Rome burned . . . .
My Orchestra teacher in high school explained that it was unlikely that Nero had a violin -- he was more apt to have "luted" while Rome burned.
[Biased]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is the sort of thing that exercises Tiny Fingers these days. If this were a novel we would not believe it; I can hear that editorial comment now: "You know, hon, you can push this kind of thing too far. It's unbelievable. No one would believe that a chief executive would be so moronic. Dial it back, would you?"
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I like this article.

There are moments I think I'll go back to read The Granuaid. Articles like this make me remember why I stay away. Not Peak Guardian by any means, but a shallow Ode to the Converted rather than analysis. But I suppose such things may help some people get through.

I can't share such optimism. Trump may go, please God let it be so!, but we still have disaffected masses who t.e.h Left continue to ignore or have no answers for. And Trump Mark II may be worse than the first.

Until progressive politicians realise not everyone is agile and connected, not everyone wants to be disrupted, until they realise people in insecure or low-wage jobs are afraid and until they have an answer for them, they will continue to be seen as more interested in LGBTQ rights, environmentalism and refugees [which are good and proper causes in themself] to the exclusion of all else; which turns many people off [not the fighting for rights, but the fact no voices are raised for them]. Or so it seems to me. May be way off the mark.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Until progressive politicians realise not everyone is agile and connected, not everyone wants to be disrupted, until they realise people in insecure or low-wage jobs are afraid and until they have an answer for them, they will continue to be seen as more interested in LGBTQ rights, environmentalism and refugees [which are good and proper causes in themself] to the exclusion of all else; which turns many people off [not the fighting for rights, but the fact no voices are raised for them]. Or so it seems to me. May be way off the mark.

I seem to recall some kind of program American "progressive politicians" enacted recently to get a whole bunch of "people in insecure or low-wage jobs" health insurance. I think it had something to do with the guy mentioned in that Guardian article you hated, but the name eludes me at the moment. That can't be right though, because that's the kind of thing you say "progressive politicians" never do.
 
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I like this article.

I can't share such optimism. Trump may go, please God let it be so!, but we still have disaffected masses who t.e.h Left continue to ignore or have no answers for. And Trump Mark II may be worse than the first.

Until progressive politicians realise not everyone is agile and connected, not everyone wants to be disrupted, until they realise people in insecure or low-wage jobs are afraid and until they have an answer for them,

What sort of answers might there be, then?

I find it interesting that many seem to be distressed at Trump's protectionist and anti-globalisation stance. I can understand this from the Economist, for example, whose writers frankly love globalisation with a passion and have never been afraid to say so. But it sounds a bit weird coming from the Guardian, say, or from those who would have voted for Bernie Sanders.

If Trump's economic approach is not correct, but on the other hand you don't like globalisation, what do you suggest?
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I seem to recall some kind of program American "progressive politicians" enacted recently to get a whole bunch of "people in insecure or low-wage jobs" health insurance. I think it had something to do with the guy mentioned in that Guardian article you hated, but the name eludes me at the moment. That can't be right though, because that's the kind of thing you say "progressive politicians" never do.

I did not intend, nor think I did say, they never do anything. I'm just wondering if Jill the boilermaker in the mid-West is as fussed about progressive issues as she is about job security. I've read left-leaning rants that expressed similar ideas to mine -- the Democrats have chased the 1% from Ivy League unis and forgot about their base and what matters to them. Now, I could be wrong here; I'm in a different country and read only certain sources. If so, let me know as you did above.

What I think about the ACA is in another matter -- making other people pay more to subsidise others seems a very good way to get people offside (and I speak as someone who would pay more if it helped others...but I can see how this would not appeal to many).


What is the answer? Fucked if I know. But whatever is happening around the world in the centre and left seems like not the way given the rise of the alt-right. Not electing someone like Trump for a start. But I was more reacting to the thought in the article that all will be fine as Trump will implode or his supporters will run away. To hell it will. A new beast arising, more horrific than the first, is what scares me. I see no sign people will come more towards the centre, or, as I'd hope, to the left given that is where my allegiances lie.

Sorry to post and run; I'm away for a few days. Sorry if I did not express myself well or say something egregiously false/offensive. I'm trying to get my thoughts down and may not always succeed. Apologies if this, or the post above, caused offence due to my inability to express myself clearly or by any lies I accidentally expressed. I appreciate the rigour and intellect posters here bring to such discussions.

[ 08. February 2017, 21:43: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A friend of mine had to take his car to the shop, so he sat in the waiting room waiting for them to finish the oil change or whatever. He listened to another pair of people, talking. They were die-hard Trump supporters and were happily discussing how great it was all going and how fine things were going to be.

The problem today is that there are two worlds, two separate realities -- bubbles, as it were. Which one is the real world? It is hotly debated. There is a significant fraction of the population in the US that thinks The PGinChief is doing a wonderful job. How can these people learn to think in a different way? DamifIknow.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
How can these people learn to think in a different way?

When they get sick and can't go to the doctor because they no longer have insurance; or when they can no longer afford to buy groceries, electronic gadgets or a car because of what import tariffs have done to prices -- maybe then. But they'll probably find someone else to blame.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
How can these people learn to think in a different way?

When they get sick and can't go to the doctor because they no longer have insurance; or when they can no longer afford to buy groceries, electronic gadgets or a car because of what import tariffs have done to prices -- maybe then. But they'll probably find someone else to blame.
Probably Obama.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Or Hillary, the favorite bogeywoman for all these years.

I fear that it will indeed take a vast disaster before people wise up. It'll take a big event to pop the bubble.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Trump may go, please God let it be so!, but we still have disaffected masses who t.e.h Left continue to ignore or have no answers for.

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I did not intend, nor think I did say, they never do anything.

I think you did. I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between "ignore or have no answers for" and "never do anything". Perhaps you can explain how you can ignore people while doing something for them? [Confused]

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I'm just wondering if Jill the boilermaker in the mid-West is as fussed about progressive issues as she is about job security.

Depends on the Jill. Jill the boilermaker at this point is fairly likely to be Hispanic. She may be concerned about her job security, but she may also be "fussed" about her abuela being deported. Assuming that "working class" = "white" in the United States seems to ignore current realities, or be a knee-jerk assumption that only white votes count.

I'd also like an explanation about how environmental issues are irrelevant to the "disaffected masses" in Flint, MI. Seems like the kind of thing "people in insecure or low-wage jobs" (a.k.a. folks who can't afford to move or buy a bunch of bottled water) might be concerned about, but maybe I just don't have your insight.

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
What I think about the ACA is in another matter -- making other people pay more to subsidise others seems a very good way to get people offside (and I speak as someone who would pay more if it helped others...but I can see how this would not appeal to many).

"[M]aking other people pay more to subsidise others" is how all insurance works. You pay in to the system and you only get a big pay out if you're one of the 'lucky' ones to have a heart attack or cancer. Doing this via market mechanisms is likely sub-optimal, but was the only political feasible option available in the U.S. in 2009-2010.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Like many democratic nations in the United States there seems to be a bit of a divide between those who support one major party and those who support another.

Both sets of supporters sit in their back yards and call the other mob over the fence every name under the sun. Some swear, some use erudite language, but its all the same. They may as well be barking at each other. These people are never going to agree. Nothing will change them. Every bad point for their party or team will be ignored or minimised, and every good point highlighted and celebrated.

This does not mean that each side is morally equivalent to the other. Obviously, the people in my back yard are vastly superior and funnier.

I just can't see the USA coming together in the forseeable future, but has it really ever been politically united? I don't think it has, other than when some of its wars were being fought, maybe. Isn't the curse and credit of American Democracy its disparity?

But hey, stay on the battlefield, in the Sweet Honey in the Rock tradition. I especially say that to those shippers who are out there actively fighting against Trump, and working with refugees in their community. Salute!
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
An apology. I should not have posted this morning. I was in a manic phase and under delusions. I'll leave it at that. I've re-read what I wrote and Crœsos was right to pull me up on what I wrote.

I won't post here again. I'm sorry again.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
National security advisor Michael Flynn resigned. Multiple front-page stories at the Washington Post.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Discussion on that has been taking place in 'Poor Kellyanne' since Flynn was also mentioned in the OP. That thread is really about White House staff in trouble so I'll change the thread title.

B62, Purg Host
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Thanks, Barnabas. [Smile]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
So this apparently happened:

quote:
The FBI rejected a recent White House request to publicly knock down media reports about communications between Donald Trump's associates and Russians known to US intelligence during the 2016 presidential campaign, multiple US officials briefed on the matter tell CNN.
For context, this kind of thing featured heavily in the Nixon articles of impeachment. I suppose it might be natural for some in the White House to consider the FBI their own personal spin doctors given recent events, but Comey seems to regard that as a one-off rather than an ongoing obligation.

quote:
The White House initially disputed that account, saying that McCabe called Priebus early that morning and said The New York Times story vastly overstates what the FBI knows about the contacts.

But a White House official later corrected their version of events to confirm what the law enforcement official described.

My personal impression, for what it's worth, is that this doesn't seem like a White House worried about inaccurate coverage, it seems more like a White House panicked over accurate and very damning coverage that may just be the tip of the iceberg. You don't ask the FBI to lean on the New York Times unless you're really worried about something.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
With Croesos. I have felt for some time that this story has legs. There are echoes of Watergate. And Carl Bernstein is sniffing around this one as well.

This isn't wishful thinking. There is an offence and a cover up.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
And right on cue, Trump plays the 'fake news' card again and Spicer holds an informal press gaggle excluding media outfits on Trump's blacklist.

Diversionary tactics in play. Watch this space.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Deep Throat said to follow the money. And that's where the answer is. He can't release the tax returns. Because they will show that the Russians have him clamped by the balls. (They are using sugar tongs to do this, because they are very small.) We have a president, and thus an administration, that is in thrall to a malevolent foreign power. Luckily they seem to be horrified by him and have not made their move, but they're sure to recover before four years are over.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
And right on cue, Trump plays the 'fake news' card again and Spicer holds an informal press gaggle excluding media outfits on Trump's blacklist.

Diversionary tactics in play. Watch this space.

spot on. I have the old Warren Zevon song in my head.
quote:
I went home with the waitress the way I always do. How was I to know she was with the Russians too? ... send lawyers guns and money, the shit has hit the fan.

 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Croesos--

In addition to (not instead of) your ideas, it might also be an attempt to reinforce T's view of the world. ISTM he really can't cope with anything but "Donny is the bestest best BEST in the world; he's the ultimate WINNER; and everything he does, says, and thinks is REALLY, REALLY GREAT".

So if the nasty NY Times, CNN, etc. say something that disagrees with T, they are obviously enemies, and wrong Wrong WRONG.

Kind of like the old "Twilight Zone" ep ("A Very Fine Day"?). Bill Mumy played a little boy who was born with all his psychic switches on, full blast. No chance for moral development, or learning to cope with "no". So if people didn't agree with him, or get him what he wanted, or do what he said, something horrible would instantly happen to them. Like make Stephen King run away screaming horrible.

Nothing got better within that episode. But there was a new ep, in the '90s IIRC, where he'd somehow managed to grow up, get *some* self-control, and have a little girl. She had similar abilities, but a more balanced mind. IIRC, she ultimately forced him to do good things.

T has said that Ivanka is the one who pushes him to do good things...
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
And Ivanka seems to be mostly MIA.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
And Ivanka seems to be mostly MIA.

She's a bit of a mystery, isn't she? Much harder to read than the obnoxious Donald.

After the recent attacks on Jewish centers, Ivanka tweeted: "America is a nation built on the principle of religious tolerance. We must protect our houses of worship & religious centers."

Which would be lovely except for what it's not saying: that her father's administration is directly linked to the uptick in anti-Semitic violence; or that religious freedom applies just as much to the Muslims her father is trying to register/ban from entry as it does to Christians & Jews.

One is left wondering whether her tweet was:
a. just a politically motivated diversionary tactic-- cover for the overt religious discrimination emanating from the white house
b. a genuine but guarded expression of her real beliefs which she cannot express more directly for fear of enraging the Orange One
c. an indication that she doesn't, in fact, recognize how much daddy's words/actions have contributed to the violence-- and so is symptom of how very blinded she is by her own privilege

All of these options seem rather sad, but for very different reasons.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I hate to break it to you, but tweets are not exactly designed to encompass an entire philosophy. Unless your philosophy is so horribly simplistic it can fit within the character limit.

A character limit which your own post discussing what you would have liked to be in the tweet doesn't come close to meeting.

Complaining about what a tweet "did not say" strikes me as a bit like complaining about the lack of features on something you bought from a $2 shop. If you like what was IN the tweet, then that ought to be sufficient.

[ 25. February 2017, 05:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I'd say B. Ivanka's husband is Jewish, and she converted.

She also has been trying to work for women's rights in the workplace, etc. So, whatever her faults may be, it seems she's trying to do some good. FWIW.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This isn't wishful thinking. There is an offence and a cover up.

I'm getting confused here.

1) is the exclusion of news outlets other than those in the press pool news? And is it less news if it is for an informal press briefing rather than a press conference?

2) I have read several articles on the pressure alleged to have been exerted on intelligence officials and find myself swamped by double negatives. The White House have stoppped denying they leant on intelligence community members to deny allegations of unspecified ties to Russia, is that it? Can someone make this simpler to understand?
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
So far as the media are concerned, those excluded from the gaggle included CNN, BBC, New York Times, LA Times. The planned regular televised regular press briefing was cancelled at short notice and replaced by an informal 'gaggle' in Sean Spicer's office.

The last time I know that there was an exclusion of "press enemies" from a White House briefing was in the Obama regime when Fox News were excluded. The White House Press Association protested and threatened a total withdrawal unless Fox were reinstated. Which they were.

I am sure this present exclusion came from the top in view of Trump's speech to CPAS. I am also sure it won't last. But it is certainly a diversion from the Russia story.

Multiple FBI sources are declaring that there is evidence supporting the allegations of regular contacts between Trump associates and key Russian sources during the execution campaign. What is not proven is that these were intended to undermine the Clinton campaign. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

I'm not saying that the attacks on certain elements of the media are entirely about diversion and a cover up. But they help. The Trump administration is unusually sensitive about media criticism in general and this story in particular. Like Croesos, I think they have actions to hide about behaviour which undermines the legitimacy of the Trump victory.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re the White House press corps (WHPC):

FYI: The WHPC (the journalists who are assigned to go to all those briefings) pretty much caved into Bush 43, after 9/11. They were as freaked out as everyone else. It seemed to me, at the time, that no one was holding Bush and the administration accountable.

It took veteran journalist Helen Thomas, blunt and feisty, to finally kick start the WHPC again. Wish she were still alive and competent. (Towards the end of her life, there was a bit of a scandal: When she was clearly way off-kilter, someone nudged her into saying something nasty about Israel, and recorded a video of it on their cell phone, and released it. (Helen was of Lebanese heritage, and (in that moment, at least) had no great love of Israel.) IIRC, she was forced to retire.)

We could use her now.

[ 25. February 2017, 08:17: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think they have actions to hide about behaviour which undermines the legitimacy of the Trump victory.

In the eyes of whom? And with what result?
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kind of like the old "Twilight Zone" ep ("A Very Fine Day"?).

You're thinking of "It's A Good Life," based on the short story by Jerome Bixby. Excellent story, excellent TZ episode.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
An interesting article about facism and opposition to the press -The lesson of the Munich Post.


"The Munich Post never stopped investigating who Hitler was and what he wanted, and Hitler never stopped hating them for it.

As Hitler sought to ingratiate himself with the city’s rulers (though never giving up the threat of violence), the Post reporters dug into his shadowy background, mocking him mercilessly, exposing internal party splits, revealing the existence of a death squad (“cell G”) that murdered political opponents and was at least as responsible for Hitler’s success as his vaunted oratory.

And in their biggest, most shamefully ignored scoop, on December 9, 1931, the paper found and published a Nazi party document planning a “final solution” for Munich’s Jews — the first Hitlerite use of the word “endlösung” in such a context. Was it a euphemism for extermination? Hitler dissembled, so many could ignore the grim possibility.

The Munich Post lost and Germany came under Nazi rule — but, in a sense, the paper had also won; they were the only ones who had figured out just how sinister Hitler and the Nazis were. I believe Hitler knew this. And so, back in 1923, when Hitler had thrown the opposition into disarray and division, he saw the chance to eliminate the Munich Post. And he took it and tried, though he failed at that, too."
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Miss Amanda--

Thanks, and you're right (Twilight Zone Wikia). The sequel is "It's Still Good Life", and his own daughter played his character's daughter.
[Cool]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I hate to break it to you, but tweets are not exactly designed to encompass an entire philosophy. Unless your philosophy is so horribly simplistic it can fit within the character limit.

A character limit which your own post discussing what you would have liked to be in the tweet doesn't come close to meeting.

Complaining about what a tweet "did not say" strikes me as a bit like complaining about the lack of features on something you bought from a $2 shop. If you like what was IN the tweet, then that ought to be sufficient.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'd say B. Ivanka's husband is Jewish, and she converted.

She also has been trying to work for women's rights in the workplace, etc. So, whatever her faults may be, it seems she's trying to do some good. FWIW.

Both of these comments are missing the point, so perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't complaining because I thought Ivanka should have said more. What I said was simply that what we don't know makes her something of a "mystery". And yes, I'm aware of her Jewish ties, and alluded to them in the 3 options I outlined for interpreting her remarks.

The point is simply that the tweet is very much at odds with her father's policies, even though Ivanka and her husband are key advisors. We don't know what that means-- is she just acting out of her role as political advisor, trying to give cover for his explicitly anti-Muslim policies? Is she signaling that she disagrees with her father, but can't do so more explicitly for some political and/or relational reasons? Or is she simply so thoroughly enmeshed in her privileged bubble that she doesn't even recognize how much her tweet is at odds with her father's policies, or that religious freedom applies just as much to Muslims as it does to Jews?

We don't know. Which was my point.

[ 25. February 2017, 14:41: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think they have actions to hide about behaviour which undermines the legitimacy of the Trump victory.

In the eyes of whom? And with what result?
I thought I had covered that in part in my earlier post.

quote:
Multiple FBI sources are declaring that there is evidence supporting the allegations of regular contacts between Trump associates and key Russian sources during the execution campaign. What is not proven is that these were intended to undermine the Clinton campaign. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
The real issues are not just the evidence that such communications took place but any evidence which may exist about content. We don't know the extent of FBI monitoring (snooping?) or even the extent to which this was legitimised for National Security reasons. But we do have good reason to believe that a classified FBI briefing has taken place.

What will the results be? Well, initially, it will be up to key figures in the House and the Senate to decide whether to pursue in detail that which "acts like a duck and quacks like a duck". I'm not sure to what extent investigative journalists are doing their own digging, but I am sure that some are. But if solid evidence emerged of actual collusion over hacking and leaks between Trump people and the Russians, that would undermine the legitimacy of the election result. It would be seen to be both against free and fair elections as well as collusion with an enemy for reasons of political gain.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What will the results be? Well, initially, it will be up to key figures in the House and the Senate to decide whether to pursue in detail that which "acts like a duck and quacks like a duck".

Key figures who are to a man halfway up 45's colon in their effort to kiss his arse. Yeah, hell of a lot of pursuit of detail is going to happen THERE. You might as well dream about getting a pony.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
God bless the Daily Mail! They must be doing something right, he's banned them too.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What will the results be? Well, initially, it will be up to key figures in the House and the Senate to decide whether to pursue in detail that which "acts like a duck and quacks like a duck".

Key figures who are to a man halfway up 45's colon in their effort to kiss his arse. Yeah, hell of a lot of pursuit of detail is going to happen THERE. You might as well dream about getting a pony.
I dream of getting a pony. And riding it all the way north to the 49th parallel.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I looked on the Guardian (included, obviously, in the ban) and found he has stated "We are Americans and the future belongs to us."
My earworm is now the Lorelei, via "Tomorrow belongs to me".
What with America First, is he really ignorant of what he is echoing?
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I am increasingly pessimistic that anyone will be able to make anything stick. Trump has the majorities where it matters.

The ongoing support of his base demonstrates he has damaged the credibility of the press enough to be able to portray any investigation as a witch-hunt and play the victim.

(I note Marine Le Pen has now taken a leaf from his book by starting to refer to "fake news").

Even if the evidence is ironclad (and again, at least to my mind, the allegations so far are confusing enough to be able to obfuscate with ease) I would not underestimate Trump's ability to wriggle.

I recall once again his boast that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and retain his support. I tend to believe that's true.

The problem is that Trump as president is able to use the legitimacy of his office to add weight to his personal pronouncements. As his pronouncements erode the legitimatcy of that office, I suppose there might come a point of no return for him, but I suspect it will be very difficult to rebuild the legitimacy of the office of POTUS afterwards.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

On the contrary. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I'm not optimistic, mousethief. But that's the route. Time to look for an honest GOP representative or two.

Or maybe a latter day Woodstein? Worth remembering that Woodward was GOP, Bernstein Democrat.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Or maybe a latter day Woodstein? Worth remembering that Woodward was GOP, Bernstein Democrat.

But this is an anachronism.

My concern is that even if the mother of all stories is broken, it simply won't have the impact theirs did.

One thing we haven't seen yet is what Trump would do faced with a major crisis not of his own making in, say, foreign policy, or a domestic natural disaster.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Or maybe a latter day Woodstein? Worth remembering that Woodward was GOP, Bernstein Democrat.

But this is an anachronism.

My concern is that even if the mother of all stories is broken, it simply won't have the impact theirs did.

One thing we haven't seen yet is what Trump would do faced with a major crisis not of his own making in, say, foreign policy, or a domestic natural disaster.

You mean like the Reichstag catching fire?
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Or maybe a latter day Woodstein? Worth remembering that Woodward was GOP, Bernstein Democrat.

But this is an anachronism.

My concern is that even if the mother of all stories is broken, it simply won't have the impact theirs did.

One thing we haven't seen yet is what Trump would do faced with a major crisis not of his own making in, say, foreign policy, or a domestic natural disaster.

Well, it might be an anachronism. Except that the Post was very isolated at the time and much criticised by both other media and the WH. The reporters had to fight for credibility for a long time before the dam burst.

What would Trump do with some major external or domestic crisis? Firstly, blame it on his predecessor. Secondly, blame the media for exaggerating its importance. Thirdly, claim he had predicted it in his campaign.

What he would do to actually combat the crisis is anybody's guess.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
[Perusant to the last post, by Barnabas, on the previous page]

As a resident of the Korean peninsula, I was somewhat heartened by Trump's response to the recent DPRK missile test. I'm actually not sure what he said, which is probably a good sign: whatever he said, it wasn't outrageous enough to garner any significant amount of headline space(cf. "Axis Of Evil").

I know there was some consternation about him flouting protocol by talking about it with Abe in public, but at the end of the day, I don't think that either outraged or emboldened the North Koreans, so no harm no foul.

And it Trump was guilty of flouting protocol, does Abe stand similarly indicted?

[ 25. February 2017, 19:07: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
The POST knows well its role in these times. They have a new slogan, "Democracy Dies in Darkness." I Supporting a free media is going to be key if we're going to survive this.
To this end, I've been urging those who can afford it to subscribe to the POST or some other newspaper pr periodical. (If you can't afford it, you might be able to read it regularly anyway. People with a .mil or .edu address, or Amazon Prime members, can get a free subscription. You may also be able to read it for free through your local library's website; you'd have to log on on their portal.)
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, it might be an anachronism. Except that the Post was very isolated at the time and much criticised by both other media and the WH. The reporters had to fight for credibility for a long time before the dam burst.

What I think Trump has done, or is well on the way to doing, is undermining the credibility of the media as a whole and with it, the importance of a free press and what it is saying.

The WaPo might convince us lot, but it won't convince Trump's core constituency.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, it might be an anachronism. Except that the Post was very isolated at the time and much criticised by both other media and the WH. The reporters had to fight for credibility for a long time before the dam burst.

What I think Trump has done, or is well on the way to doing, is undermining the credibility of the media as a whole and with it, the importance of a free press and what it is saying.

The WaPo might convince us lot, but it won't convince Trump's core constituency.

But it's far too late for them. If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
No, you can only do what you can do. Those who believe that the PG sits just below the Father and the Son will not be persuaded otherwise by any agency. The target must be those who are not the Kool-ade drinkers, who are not die-hards.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
An example of real fake news. Used by a Trump loyalist on Fox, then retracted. McCain had already expressed a willingness to investigate Russian mucking about with the election. Hannity's gaffe may have strengthened his resolve. And at his age he has little to lose by going for the truth.

mousethief, I doubt whether all of Trump's supporters are beyond recall, however successful media attacks have been so far with them.
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
CNN now reporting that Trump will not attend the White House Correspondents' Dinner.

Bon appetit.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, you can only do what you can do. Those who believe that the PG sits just below the Father and the Son will not be persuaded otherwise by any agency. The target must be those who are not the Kool-ade drinkers, who are not die-hards.

You're missing my point. I don't think it's just about political affiliation. I think there are fewer and fewer people out there who are liable to be moved by facts at all.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
For the time being, maybe. But that combination of ignorance and cynicism may have a shorter shelf life than you think. At least, I hope so.

[ 26. February 2017, 00:26: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Penny--

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I looked on the Guardian (included, obviously, in the ban) and found he has stated "We are Americans and the future belongs to us."
My earworm is now the Lorelei, via "Tomorrow belongs to me".
What with America First, is he really ignorant of what he is echoing?

I've wondered about that, but was afraid I'd sound like "well, he's German, so he *must* be a Nazi sympathizer".

AIUI, his paternal grandparents came over from Germany, at a time when there was a lot of anti-German feeling. (Maybe during/after WWI?) So, probably at Ellis Island immigration station, he changed their name from Drumpf to Trump, and said they were Swedish. People often changed their names there. I'm not sure how common it was to hide nationality.

That would've been long before the Nazis were even formed, I think. But I wonder if maybe the grandfather held and passed down some bad attitudes, which were eventually passed down to T? Did T's dad pick up some pro-Nazi attitudes prior to WWII?

Grandpa Drumpf may well have been a decent guy who simply wanted to protect himself and his family from prejudice, and get a fresh start.

But a lot of people--German and otherwise--got sucked into Nazi ideology, at least before it was known how bad things had gotten. I can kind of see how an exiled camouflaged German, missing his country and maybe resentful, maybe having the common anti-Semitism of the time, might cross a line into supporting Nazis. Heck, aviator Charles Lindbergh was sympathetic, and I think his ancestry actually *was* Swedish.

Not excusing possible sympathizing with Nazis, but trying to figure out how it might have come about.

And, again, Grandpa Drumpf may well have been a decent guy, and not at all sympathetic.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

AIUI, his paternal grandparents came over from Germany, at a time when there was a lot of anti-German feeling. (Maybe during/after WWI?) So, probably at Ellis Island immigration station, he changed their name from Drumpf to Trump, and said they were Swedish. People often changed their names there. I'm not sure how common it was to hide nationality.

fwiw, my great-grandfather came thru Ellis Island from Denmark in the years between WW1 & WW2, and was told that there that his name sounded "too German" and was advised to change it.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
cliffdweller--

Ah, thanks! I knew that people often altered or ditched Jewish names, but that's not a particular nationality.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
My parents arrived in Britain at the end of 1938; they didn't change their surname which is obviously German and rather less obviously Jewish.

Quite a few of their contemporaries did Anglicise their names; I suspect this was due (a) to avoid possible anti-German sentiment, (b) to distance themselves from the horrors of the country they'd left and identify with the one they were now living in, and (c) for pure simplicity - certainly I've had trouble all my life when giving my name over the phone etc.

Things may have been different in the US which has a different tradition of immigration.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I have several friends who, either arriving at Pier 21 in the first half of the lst century or the Ellis Island equivalent, had their names changed for them by immigration officers. One former colleague found out that his family name was actually the name of their home village in the Ukraine-- they misunderstood the officer's question and he, in turn, decided to give them a simplified version of the village's name.

Another friend, named Miller, found her grandfather's immigration form, which read Mueller, crossed out, and Miller written in beside it. And for those of us whose first paying job was the transcription of the 1851 Census for Augusta Township revelled in seeing the Schwerferger family name spelled six different ways among ten family members-- aghast at this, our supervisor noted that consistency was not a primary aspect of that period's documentary culture.

In other words, the Drumpf to Trump transition may have just been viewed by those involved as a minor editing matter to make life easier.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

If the lamestream media hadn't parroted "Trump, Trump, Trump" during every waking hour of the campaign, Trump would never have been elected in the first place.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

If the lamestream media hadn't parroted "Trump, Trump, Trump" during every waking hour of the campaign, Trump would never have been elected in the first place.
A lovely example of relative privation.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

If the lamestream media hadn't parroted "Trump, Trump, Trump" during every waking hour of the campaign, Trump would never have been elected in the first place.
A lovely example of relative privation.
You mean both statements, right?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

If the lamestream media hadn't parroted "Trump, Trump, Trump" during every waking hour of the campaign, Trump would never have been elected in the first place.
A lovely example of relative privation.
You mean both statements, right?
No. Relative privation is a comparison of the "I know you are but what am I?" variety. My comparison is not of that variety. So, no. It may have other flaws. But you'll have to actually do your own work to find what those are (not being coy; I didn't design any flaws into it, but I admit I am not perfect).
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Relative privation is a comparison of the "I know you are but what am I?" variety.

from Wikipedia
quote:
Fallacy of relative privation
The fallacy of relative privation, or appeal to worse problems, is an informal fallacy which attempts to suggest that the opponent's argument should be ignored because there are more important problems in the world, despite the fact that these issues are often completely unrelated to the subject under discussion.

So, really, my comment was not spot on, but you appear to have used the wrong term.
Regardless, both what you say and what ABR say are correct.
Cognitive bias, combined with increasing polarization, means many will not trust news sources.
And the media gave Cheeto vast amounts of free publicity. Beyond covering what he said, they often functioned as free telecasts of the entirety of his events.
They really did function as a unit of his campaign.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Then I had misunderstood what "relative privation" means, and I was wrong. There. See if you'll get Donald Trump to admit that.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Pursuant to advice received in this thread, I subscribed to The Wall Street Journal for US$2 until 24 April, auto-renewing thereafter at a whopping US$30 per month. Little did they know that I had a friend who might have subscribed to porn sites in the 90's, and that friend told me about all their little tricksies when he was drunk.

After perusing the website, I determined that the only way to cancel was to ring them, and they closed at 10pm eastern US. I quickly checked servertime on the computer game I was playing (which I knew to be US eastern) and determined that it was 9:15pm.

Like a duck diving for a fish, I grabbed my telephone between my powerful jaws and called the number. I cancelled that subscription like a pro, although I did have to modify my accent to get through the computer call-sorting at the start. It's lucky I'm not from Glasgow.

Don't try and tell me I'm not dancing to KC and the Sunshine Band right now.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Thanks Obama!
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
More fun:

"Barack Obama is organising a coup against Donald Trump, claims Google Home robot" (Yahoo).

Seems to be a programming error. But wow. How many people will believe it, just because it comes from their Google AI gadget?
[Paranoid]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
So is Trump about to fail in his attempt to repeal Obamacare - albeit for all the wrong reasons?

quote:
The bill needs 215 votes to pass but ran into opposition mainly from conservative Republicans who believed it did not roll back enough of Mr Obama's Affordable Care Act.
AIUI those conservative Republicans are in safer seats than their slightly more moderate counterparts.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
So is Trump about to fail in his attempt to repeal Obamacare - albeit for all the wrong reasons?

I think it may be oversimplifying it a little? Some of them are also uncomfortable with a bill that is essentially incomplete and leaves it up to the senate to revise it such that key bits of it work. If you have an inclination and/or a long car journey, the Weeds podcast (while partisan) gave a reasonable run down of some of the problems with it:

http://www.vox.com/2017/3/16/14944942/republican-health-plan-cbo-weeds
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
This photo could have been taken in the 1950s [Frown]
 
Posted by Doone (# 18470) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
This photo could have been taken in the 1950s [Frown]

[Mad]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
OK, this is so outre that I would have deemed it fiction. Except it's in the Washington POST: a white supremacist buys a derelict church building with plans to start the “President Donald J. Trump Creativity Church of Rome.”
The fellow is a known creep who has been trying to start a 'white enclave' in the Midwest for some time; local residents always drive him out. In this case someone torched the building before he could start worship services, and it burnt to the ground. What I would like to know is, how does Rome come into it?

[ 24. March 2017, 13:05: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What I would like to know is, how does Rome come into it?

Well, Caligula and all....
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What I would like to know is, how does Rome come into it?

Well, Caligula and all....
The fire brings Nero to mind, although the Holy Spirit may have played a part.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
Any wagers about a healthcare vote happening today?

The New York Times is reporting that Ryan just visited the White House to inform the President that the bill will not pass if a vote happens today.

So do they try to save face by not holing the vote? Vote anyway and declare political war on any Republican who votes no? I can honestly see Trump liking his chances with option two- nobody knows how to manage a long-burning personal feud like Donald Trump.

As someone said on a Facebook post, say what you will about Nancy Pelosi, the fact that she managed to wrangle enough votes to get Obamacare through was, in light of Ryan's struggles, a pretty monumental achievement.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
From the POST:
House Republican leaders abruptly pulled a Republican rewrite of the nation’s health-care system from consideration on Friday, a dramatic acknowledgment that they are so far unable to repeal the Affordable Care Act.

“We just pulled it,” President Trump told the Washington Post in a telephone interview.

Fantasy, meet reality. With a hard thump.
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
It will be interesting to see what happens next. In a bid to force House Republicans into line, Comrade Trump stated that the bill should go to vote and, in any event, he was done with negotiating it any further as he had other things he wanted to do. (Like, you know, spend more tax dollars having a weekend getaway at his place in Florida.)

Now that dodge by Trump was clearly his pet negotiating tactic that he always brags about: that he is always ready to walk away from a deal. That is why he considers himself a great negotiator--because he is always willing to quit, and that puts pressure on the other side to give in because they want the deal.

So he just tried this tactic with a bunch of politicians and it blew up in his face. It turns out that negotiating with politicians is not the same as negotiating with somebody who actually hopes to make a profit from a deal. Will he go back to negotiating (and send out his spokespuppets to spin everything so it doesn't look like he has backed down from his prior statement that he was "done" with negotiating it)? Or will he keep his word and not do any more, thus preserving (for the future) that he will in fact back out of a deal if people do not cooperate?

It looks to me like Comrade Trump, the Great Negotiator, is going to actually have to learn another trick. And so we'll learn if the self-described "very intelligent" man is just a one-trick pony.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
He is now The Biggest Loser.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
It sounds like they are going to move on to other things. Paul Ryan just told assembled press that Obamacare will be the law of the land for the foreseeable future, as they move on to tax reform, the budget, and a continuing resolution to keep the government funded. (Wouldn't it be something if we got a Republican orchestrated shutdown while the GOP holds all of the cards? It's not entirely out of the question any more, I suppose.)

I think the GOP strategy on healthcare, until they can come up with something new, will be to try to pretend this never happened, and go back to telling everyone that Obamacare is becoming a bigger disaster every day. Ryan already made this point in his press conference, and Trump made the same point in a release.

It's much easier to run against a bill than to fix it.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
Trump doesn't care about policy at all. He does care very much about his public image, though. His past practice when something like this happens is to walk away leaving someone else to pay the bills. I expect what we'll see is an attempt to shift blame on to Paul Ryan and the House Republicans (Ryan will be trying to shift blame to Trump at the same time), continued trash-talking about that horrible Negro who set up the ACA in the first place, and undermining Obamacare through executive branch mismanagement (also a Trump strong suit).
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
So Ryan apparently said this today
quote:
"We were an opposition party for ten years, now we have to govern and it's harder."
Just about sums up the Republican party right now. Very good at opposing - not very good at doing.


And I go back to the same thing that was obvious right from the inauguration: these guys are incompetent and that will kill almost everything they want to do.


******

Current Republican spin is the Democrats killed this bill. Sadly, this will likely play to the faithful who don't understand that the Republicans are in charge in both houses and in the executive.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
@Crœsos: mismanagement and cruelty are the only two things that we know for sure 45 is good at.

[ 24. March 2017, 20:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Trump doesn't care about policy at all. He does care very much about his public image, though. His past practice when something like this happens is to walk away leaving someone else to pay the bills. I expect what we'll see is an attempt to shift blame on to Paul Ryan and the House Republicans (Ryan will be trying to shift blame to Trump at the same time), continued trash-talking about that horrible Negro who set up the ACA in the first place, and undermining Obamacare through executive branch mismanagement (also a Trump strong suit).

And if I lived on the other side of Lake Ontario than the one I do, I would breathe a huge (dare I say Hyoooge) sigh of relief about that.

I'm a Type I Diabetic. If I lived in New York State, I would have gotten down on my knees and thanked the Good Lord for Obamacare.
 
Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
It's much easier to run against a bill than to fix it.

I figure that the Tea Party caucus probably wanted to defeat the AHCA bill because they prefer to act as an opposition party and just complain about how bad Obamacare is and how great it would be if they could only replace it. As long as they get re-elected.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
It's much easier to run against a bill than to fix it.

I figure that the Tea Party caucus probably wanted to defeat the AHCA bill because they prefer to act as an opposition party and just complain about how bad Obamacare is and how great it would be if they could only replace it. As long as they get re-elected.
To be fair, the way the Freedom caucus was going on, they seem to think they are there to represent ideals. Now whether those are ideals of their voting constituents or their financial contributors is open to question.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Now that dodge by Trump was clearly his pet negotiating tactic that he always brags about: that he is always ready to walk away from a deal. That is why he considers himself a great negotiator--because he is always willing to quit, and that puts pressure on the other side to give in because they want the deal.

So he just tried this tactic with a bunch of politicians and it blew up in his face. It turns out that negotiating with politicians is not the same as negotiating with somebody who actually hopes to make a profit from a deal.

This, absolutely. This article makes similar points.

I genuinely think he had no conception of what the job entailed when he started running. Time and again he shows that he doesn't understand the differences between a company and the public sector.

He's not alone in this - I've seen plenty of reports about running the public/civil service "like a business" that seem to ignore that the purpose of a business is utterly different - but he is a particularly spectacular example of misunderstanding the job description. He is not CEO of America, inc.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Trump doesn't care about policy at all. He does care very much about his public image, though. His past practice when something like this happens is to walk away leaving someone else to pay the bills. I expect what we'll see is an attempt to shift blame on to Paul Ryan and the House Republicans (Ryan will be trying to shift blame to Trump at the same time), continued trash-talking about that horrible Negro who set up the ACA in the first place, and undermining Obamacare through executive branch mismanagement (also a Trump strong suit).

And if I lived on the other side of Lake Ontario than the one I do, I would breathe a huge (dare I say Hyoooge) sigh of relief about that.

Yes. Amid the predictable and well-deserved rejoicing among Democrats today, Sen. Pelosi said precisely that-- that her emotion was one of relief.
 
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :
 
This fracas with this bill is a good example of the disfunction of congress in general (and more specifically of the GOP, and even more specifically of the GOP under Trump). If you are a GOP member of the House, by not voting for the bill you face the ire of a vindictive president, the threat of not getting donations passed down to you that were raised by Paul Ryan and other House and Party leaders, and opposition from Trump voters in your district who may oppose you in the upcoming Republican party primary election. By voting for the bill, you risk turning moderates and independents in your district against you by supporting a bill that was not likely to pass anyway - and you may also earn the opposition of some people who voted for Trump who turn against you, if not Trump also, when they lose their health insurance or can no longer afford it. You also risk losing the financial support (or losing the opportunity of future financial support) of activist groups like those supported by the billionaire Koch Brothers (who personally are pro-abortion rights and gay marriage but are libertarians who really really hate all government entitlement/welfare/benefit programs). The activist network set up by the Koch Brothers had announced that it would donate large sums of money to any GOP member that voted against this bill. (FYI the Koch Brothers did not donate any money to Trump but funneled huge amounts of money to making sure the Republicans kept both houses of Congress).
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Well, here's a howdydo!

I swear, if this was a fictional Presidency and this story line appeared it would be rejected as ludicrously implausible. But truth is stranger than fiction.

The attempt by the Deflector in Chief to draw attention away from the Russian connection has now blown up in his face. Nunes was briefed in the White House by WH officials so he could then go and brief Trump about what he learned from WH officials?! Poor Sean Spicer had a painful time handling that storyline today. 'You keep focusing on process but not substance' he said. Well, the process was pretty smelly! And the substance not so much.

But this is just for openers. Flynn has a story to tell and looks to be seeking immunity in order to tell it. About the Russian connection of course.

Shades of Watergate. Will Michael Flynn turn out to be a latter day John Dean? Will Nunes come clean about his role in the deflection. Will the Senate Intelligence Committee manage to avoid the politicisation which has poisoned the House Committee and the Nunes/Schiff show?

Curiouser and curiouser.

[ 31. March 2017, 01:41: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on :
 
The 80's are still calling...
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
That was a major development. The minor lunacy of the day was the revelation that VP Mike Pence will not meet alone with women, and will never attend a function that serves alcohol unless his wife is present. This has elicited solemn commentary and analysis, and a dissection of the theology behind the notion in addition to some solid gold comedy. Saturday Night Live is going to have a field day with this.

These are from the POST, but here is a blistering summary from a free site.

[ 31. March 2017, 02:59: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The attempt by the Deflector in Chief to draw attention away from the Russian connection has now blown up in his face. Nunes was briefed in the White House by WH officials so he could then go and brief Trump about what he learned from WH officials?! Poor Sean Spicer had a painful time handling that storyline today. 'You keep focusing on process but not substance' he said. Well, the process was pretty smelly! And the substance not so much.

Ah, the Cheney two-step. A Washington classic! Back during the run-up to the Iraq War, the Office of the Vice President would leak WMD intel (cooked to various degrees) to various media outlets. Then Dick Cheney would go on the various Sunday talking head shows and cite the reporting by the New York Times (or others) as 'independent' corroboration of his position and everyone would pretend not to know that he was, in essence, quoting himself.

I'd like to think the media has gotten savvy enough that they're not falling for this anymore, but in this case it just seems like gross incompetence on the part of Nunes and his White House sources.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But this is just for openers. Flynn has a story to tell and looks to be seeking immunity in order to tell it. About the Russian connection of course.

Shades of Watergate. Will Michael Flynn turn out to be a latter day John Dean?

The fact that Flynn is making the offer publicly through the press probably means he doesn't have anything really interesting to say.

quote:
As an experienced lawyer, [Flynn's attorney Robert] Kelner will know that the Justice Department would never grant immunity for testimony on these terms. Prosecutors would first require that Flynn submit to what’s called a proffer session in which Flynn would agree to tell everything he knows in exchange for the prosecutors agreeing not to use his statement against him. Only after the prosecutors heard what Flynn could offer in terms of evidence against others, and had an opportunity to assess his credibility, would they be willing to discuss any grants of immunity or a cooperation deal. At a minimum, the prosecutors would require Flynn’s lawyer to make a proffer outlining the information that Flynn could provide.

The fact that Flynn and his lawyer have made his offer publicly suggests that he has nothing good to give the prosecutors (either because he cannot incriminate others or is unwilling to do so). If he had something good, Flynn and his lawyer would approach the prosecutors quietly, go through the proffer process in confidence, and reach a deal. Why? Because prosecutors have an interest in keeping their investigation secret, and Flynn’s lawyer knows that. The last thing Flynn’s lawyer would do if he thought he had the goods would be to go public, because that would potentially compromise the criminal inquiry and would certainly irritate the prosecutors, the very people Flynn’s lawyer would be trying to win over.

I suspect that Flynn’s lawyer is really targeting Congress. He is hoping that one of the Congressional committees will take the bait and grant him immunity in exchange for his testimony. If that happened, it would be extremely difficult to prosecute Flynn after he testified. Remember Oliver North?


 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
That was a major development. The minor lunacy of the day was the revelation that VP Mike Pence will not meet alone with women, and will never attend a function that serves alcohol unless his wife is present. This has elicited solemn commentary and analysis, and a dissection of the theology behind the notion in addition to some solid gold comedy. Saturday Night Live is going to have a field day with this.

These are from the POST, but here is a blistering summary from a free site.

During my days on the fringe of politics many many years ago, I knew several MPs who would not work late with a woman assistant, and would not meet with a woman with the doors closed. Only one of them ever discussed this in my presence, and he said that it was always best to keep things visibly professional-- it set a standard in his office in a setting where there was much crossing of boundaries (that very year, I saw 3 ministerial marriages collapse on account of close friendship with staff members).

An ancient and revered archdeacon of my acquaintance followed a similar practice of open doors for meetings with women, saying that he learned this during his first curacy (when George V was still on the throne and Bennett buggies roamed the prairie).

While evangelicals in the US have a rather high divorce rate, many of them put much focus on their family lives and VP Pence's approach is familiar to anyone who has dipped into the milieu in that country. Still, I'd rather be eaten by armadillos than vote for him, but that's another thread.
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Pence could solve the problem by following Trump's approach: just keep hiring relatives.

It reminds of a line from "The Senator Was Indiscreet" (1947). Sen. Ashton is defending his own integrity by noting "I have never put one man or woman on the public payroll who was not my own blood kin-or Mrs. Ashton's, anyway."
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
In the US this is known as the Billy Graham rule, because Billy Graham went by it after a number of evangelical preachers went down in flames for affairs or adultery.

The second POST link up there summarizes why it is a bad idea:
" ... For men to categorically refuse to meet one-on-one with women is often dehumanizing and denies the image of Christ that each person bears. ... It also fuels the myth that loads of women are waiting around to falsely accuse powerful men of rape, a situation that has occurred, but is rare and often used to discount real sexual trauma."

The rule assumes heteronormativity. Are bisexual people never supposed to be alone with anybody?

Finally, "The rule also promotes the preservation of men and exclusion of women in positions of leadership. If a woman at work cannot meet one-on-one with her boss or colleague, her options for advancement (or even being taken seriously as a colleague) are extremely limited... Colleagues and employees engage in a relationship between grown-ups who ought to be able to have an appropriate work-related conversation or a meal together."
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
There was an employment case a while back. A male dentist had fired his attractive female employee (dental nurse, I think) because he was afraid that spending his days in close proximity to an attractive young woman would lead him to betray his wife. There was no suggestion that either the dentist or his employee had behaved in any kind of inappropriate manner - just that the dentist didn't want to spend time in close proximity to an attractive woman that wasn't his wife because he was afraid that her presence would incite lustful thoughts in him or something.

That attitude neither denies the image of Christ in the woman nor classes her as a potential false rape-accuser. It's not about the woman at all.

It's heteronormative, because conservative evangelicals are heteronormative. And obviously it's unfair to women - if male employees are getting opportunities that female employees aren't, because the boss won't travel with a woman, say.

If we were talking about an alcoholic avoiding spending time in the presence of alcohol - not having any in his home, not putting himself in positions where he could be tempted to have a drink - we'd be applauding his attempts to control his problem. Which is fine, because alcohol isn't a person, and we don't have to consider the effect on the alcohol.

So what if someone's weakness is sexual attraction, rather than alcohol? He'd like to do all the same kinds of things to remove temptation from his path, but we also have to consider the position of the person or people that he is excluding for fear that he might be attracted to them, because they are people.

I see both sides of this one, and I'm not really sure what the right answer is.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
The weak dentist had a clear solution: hire only male assistants, or female ones that were not attractive to him. You cannot tell me that all dental assistants are hotties. He surely knew of his proclivities and could have compensated for them. A pity, that the fired assistant had to bear the burden for his own lack of self-knowledge.

A dentistry is a private business. A public official like a vice president was elected to serve all the people. If he's dropping more than half of us out, we have a cause for complaint.
 
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 
It is very standard, though, for teachers or youth workers to avoid being alone with a single child - indeed many organisations require this. Is this not similar?
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There was an employment case a while back. A male dentist had fired his attractive female employee (dental nurse, I think) because he was afraid that spending his days in close proximity to an attractive young woman would lead him to betray his wife. There was no suggestion that either the dentist or his employee had behaved in any kind of inappropriate manner - just that the dentist didn't want to spend time in close proximity to an attractive woman that wasn't his wife because he was afraid that her presence would incite lustful thoughts in him or something.

That attitude neither denies the image of Christ in the woman nor classes her as a potential false rape-accuser. It's not about the woman at all.

Except insofar as the dentist's inability to see women as friends, co-workers, protégés, or anything other than sex objects cost that woman her job. That bit was pretty much about her.

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A public official like a vice president was elected to serve all the people. If he's dropping more than half of us out, we have a cause for complaint.

For example, what if Susan Collins or Joni Ernst need to have a private meeting with the Vice President (a.k.a. the President of the Senate). I suppose I can see a certain reluctance to be in a room alone with Joni Ernst as merely prudent, but this would seem to put female senators at a decided disadvantage relative to their male colleagues.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
It is very standard, though, for teachers or youth workers to avoid being alone with a single child - indeed many organisations require this. Is this not similar?

Only if you regard "adult women" = "children" to be a valid comparison.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

So what if someone's weakness is sexual attraction, rather than alcohol?

Except that is not how it works. The psychology of cheating and the psychology of addiction are not the same. There might be similar underlying causes in specific cases, but cheating =\= addiction.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
I don't think the alcoholic drink is going to be at a disadvantage professionally if someone chooses not to be in the room with it.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
There's already a meme going around, of Pence insisting that the bottle of Mrs. Butterworth (a pancake syrup sold in a plastic bottle representing the lady) be removed from his breakfast table.

The other way this is wrong is that somehow it is the woman's job to keep Pence pure. Heaven forfend that he has control over his own dick. He gets to be as weird as he likes; women get to cope with it. We have to change to meet his needs. From there it is a short step to demanding that our temptations be hidden from his august sight. Hats, veils, gloves, long skirts? The list is endless. And we can prove that even the most thorough hiding (the full length burka) is insufficient; women in burkas are raped every day. No, clearly the simplest thing is to keep them entirely out of view; strict purdah is the way to go. And why do they need to work, anyway? They can't get good jobs, since by now they can't be in college classrooms, labs, yes even dental offices.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There's already a meme going around, of Pence insisting that the bottle of Mrs. Butterworth (a pancake syrup sold in a plastic bottle representing the lady) be removed from his breakfast table.

Like a lot of the good ones, this one comes from The Onion.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Except insofar as the dentist's inability to see women as friends, co-workers, protégés, or anything other than sex objects cost that woman her job. That bit was pretty much about her.

You're projecting. The dentist was not unable to see women as "anything other than sex objects". He just wasn't able to get past his sexual attraction. These are different things.

There is a difference between seeing an attractive woman as only good for sex, and not being able to get past your sexual attraction towards her when you are together.

And yes, of course the consequences are about the woman - she lost her job - but it's not because the dentist thinks that women are inferior or otherwise has opinions about the suitability of women for particular jobs.

quote:
this would seem to put female senators at a decided disadvantage relative to their male colleagues.
Yes, of course. And of course that's a problem. Perhaps a glass-walled office with a staffer sitting in the outer office would satisfy both parties?

Presumably if the situation were reversed (say Governor Pence needed to have a private discussion with President Clinton) he would just decide to not have a private discussion and bring an aide with him.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Except insofar as the dentist's inability to see women as friends, co-workers, protégés, or anything other than sex objects cost that woman her job. That bit was pretty much about her.

You're projecting. The dentist was not unable to see women as "anything other than sex objects". He just wasn't able to get past his sexual attraction. These are different things.

There is a difference between seeing an attractive woman as only good for sex, and not being able to get past your sexual attraction towards her when you are together.

And yes, of course the consequences are about the woman - she lost her job - but it's not because the dentist thinks that women are inferior or otherwise has opinions about the suitability of women for particular jobs.

Except that was exactly what he did; decided that women were unsuitable for a certain job on the grounds that he's a perv.

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Presumably if the situation were reversed (say Governor Pence needed to have a private discussion with President Clinton) he would just decide to not have a private discussion and bring an aide with him.

Wow. Just wow! Apparently Mike Pence's sexual insecurities have such a great need to be catered to that a Governor can dictate terms to the President about who is and isn't cleared to be present at a meeting. Again, wow!

And I don't think I'm projecting. Pence and others have made it clear that they're sizing up all non-related women as potential sex partners and that this consideration takes primacy over any other consideration of women as colleagues or people. The fact that Pence is taking some ostentatious measures because he can't help doing this doesn't mean he's not doing this.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
[QUOTE]

Presumably if the situation were reversed (say Governor Pence needed to have a private discussion with President Clinton) he would just decide to not have a private discussion and bring an aide with him.

He might not have been Governor Pence. He was up for reelection when he was given the VP nod and wasn't exactly a runaway in the state polls.

sabine
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
You're projecting. The dentist was not unable to see women as "anything other than sex objects". He just wasn't able to get past his sexual attraction. These are different things.

He is still seeing her as primarily a sex object and transferring all the responsibility to her. Despite "love at first sight" bullshit, we control the level of our attraction. Not necessarily the initial attractions, but certainly anything deeper. For his attraction to become "out of his control" he will have allowed it to build. Instead of taking steps to ameliorate it, he's allowed it to become a problem.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

And I don't think I'm projecting. Pence and others have made it clear that they're sizing up all non-related women as potential sex partners and that this consideration takes primacy over any other consideration of women as colleagues or people. The fact that Pence is taking some ostentatious measures because he can't help doing this doesn't mean he's not doing this.

I suppose I'm trying to imagine what it's like being Mike Pence, which is a bit of a challenge. Because I've gone away to conferences with attractive female colleagues, eaten dinner with them and so on, without once thinking about having sex with them. As have, I assume, a large number of other people. So I don't really know what being scared of being around women is like.

So I'm thinking about it rather like this: Suppose a colleague came to talk to me carrying a fragrant slice of hot apple pie. I'm going to be thinking about the pie. I'm not going to be able to not think about the pie. Our meeting is going to be interrupted by my stomach making gurgling noises.

This doesn't mean that I think that my colleague's status as a pie-carrier takes primacy over any of his attributes as a person, and it doesn't mean that I think less of his other abilities than I do of someone who isn't carrying pie - it just means I'm distracted by his pie. I'm not going to be able to concentrate properly in the presence of his pie.

Basically, I'm distinguishing between an instinctive reaction and an intellectual one, and holding people entirely responsible for their intellectual responses, whilst trying to be charitable towards people who are trying to control their instincts.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I don't think the alcoholic drink is going to be at a disadvantage professionally if someone chooses not to be in the room with it.

Except that perfectly good booze would go to waste.

As despicable as Pence and his policies are, as Christians we should pray that he may continue to take the necessary precautions to "avoid the near occasion of sin," as the nuns in Sunday school used to tell us.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
To 'avoid the occasion for sin' by oppressing all women he ever associates with seems to be compounding the error.
I'm reminded of the Iranian imam who said that women emit rays from their hair. These rays corrupt men, hence the necessity for veils. (I am not making this up!)
Does this make sense? Is the problem with women, and those rays? Or is the screwiness in the imam's head?
The other way to think about this is to swap out women and put in some other group. Jews, let us say. I can't be alone with a Jew because (unnamed horrid thing here). Immediately you can smell a rat.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
X-post, meant for ABR
Still Rubbish. Complete and total rubbish. And it is exactly what Jesus was addressing when he spoke of sinning in your mind. You avoid temptation by changing the way you think about something, not removing that thing.

[ 31. March 2017, 19:56: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Sorry, "lusting in your heart". Same logic applies. The dentist and Pence are still thinking of women as objects of sex first and absolving themselves of responsibility.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This cries out for the Madeleine Albright solution. You recall that Ms. Albright was Secretary of State. It was a pleasure to see her visiting Saudi Arabia, a woman in a group of white-robed men in a deeply sexist culture. Simply by being there she did them good.

I see the lustful Mr. Pence surrounded by women of power and competence. Generals, captains of industry, deep-pocketed political donors. People he has to be nice to, all women. His proctologist, the best one available for (some health issue here) a female. His pastor, his roofer, his vet. Not only his nurses, but his doctors, his dentists, the people who fix his computer and his car. He needs to meet my daughter (so many men need to meet my daughter). She can parachute out of airplanes, rappel out of black helicopters while clutching an M-16, and certainly knock his block off.

The answer to these horrible attitudes is not purdah, the exact equivalent of segregation. The answer is equality.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sorry, "lusting in your heart". Same logic applies. The dentist and Pence are still thinking of women as objects of sex first and absolving themselves of responsibility.

I don't think thought is involved at all. I think my apple pie image is likely to be closer to what is going on in these men's heads than whatever it is that you're talking about.

And I don't see "I'm going to have trouble in this situation, so I'm going to avoid being in that situation" as absolving anyone of responsibility.

Like I said, I like apple pie. If I have apple pie in the house, I'm going to eat it. I'll probably be able to resist it for a while, but it'll get late, I'll get a bit tired, and I'll be sitting down with a slice of pie. And if I do that too often, I will take on the shape of an apple pie.

So I don't make apple pie often. I don't place the temptation in front of me. Apparently, you think that by not baking pies, I'm absolving myself of responsibility for my diet or something.

I don't get that.


Thinking about it, the different scenarios should be distinguishable. I'm imagining the dentist as a man who is entirely convinced about the general competence of women, but doesn't trust himself around attractive women. (I don't really know what Pence thinks.)

Brenda (and perhaps you) are talking about men who think that women are generally inferior, delicate little flowers who are only good for sex.

Both kinds of men might avoid private meetings with individual women, but I think they must react quite differently towards women in group situations. My image of the dentist would have no problem at all interacting with a female CEO in a boardroom, for example, whereas Brenda's Saudi would.

[ 31. March 2017, 21:16: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So I'm thinking about it rather like this: Suppose a colleague came to talk to me carrying a fragrant slice of hot apple pie. I'm going to be thinking about the pie. I'm not going to be able to not think about the pie. Our meeting is going to be interrupted by my stomach making gurgling noises.

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I don't think thought is involved at all. I think my apple pie image is likely to be closer to what is going on in these men's heads than whatever it is that you're talking about.

I take the contrary view. As an adult you should have enough self control to be able to keep you fingers out of your co-worker's pie* and if you don't the problem is you, not them.

Plus, why are women always equated with inanimate objects in these analogies?


--------------------
*Paging Dr. Subtext. Please report to the Freudian Ward, stat!

[ 31. March 2017, 21:28: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

So I don't make apple pie often. I don't place the temptation in front of me. Apparently, you think that by not baking pies, I'm absolving myself of responsibility for my diet or something.

Interpersonal relationships are not pie. Reducing them to such is putting too little value on women. Yes, I do know how an analogy works and that not all part of one must weigh equally with the things being compared. But in this case your analogy demonstrates the disconnect in how Pence and the dentist are approaching this issue.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

Plus, why are women always equated with inanimate objects in these analogies?

Because that's what there is. We're comparing people to something, so the choices are another kind of person, or a thing.

There's nothing women-specific in my argument, by the way. It would apply equally to a gay man and an attractive young man, or to a woman and an attractive young man. We just talk about women in these cases because it's usually the man in the powerful position, and he's usually straight.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
You, LC , might be using the only analogous subjects you can think of. But the overall problem is still one of objectification.
The gay community, those who are solidly on one end of the scale, have had a history of antipathy towards bisexuals. The logic being that they are more likely to stray as they have more choice. This is ridiculous. Straying is down to one's personal character, not choice available.
"But wait", you say; "People are fallible."
Affairs do not start upon the first meeting. One must allow that feeling to grow. It is a process.
But let us go back to your pie. The secret to losing weight isn't avoiding rich food until you achieve your goal. This is what leads to yo-yo weight loss/gain cycles. You modify how you think about food.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I do not see that avoiding a closed-office situation is necessarily sexist or inegalitarian. In my former working life, I was for a few years in an office where there had been Highly Inappropriate Activity in the workplace, connected with a range of human resources issue. For this reason, when I was an acting manager, I religiously kept an open-door policy to help make clear that this period had ended. I looked upon this as an attempt to professionalize the workplace and reduce the likelihood of sexual access as an expectation. Maybe I overdid it, but I don't think so.

For the same reason, when I was required to travel with a female colleague (who compounded her offence by being young, blonde, and attractive), I had our admin person book us on to separate floors in our hotel. A few months later, one of the finance clerks (who process travel claims & stuff) said that she and others had noticed this and wished that everybody had such sense.

As noted above, I would rather be eaten by a zombie armadillo than vote for Mr Pence. And I would cheerfully treat Brenda Clough's rappelling daughter to cappuccino, should she be passing through Ottawa.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Okay, the Billy Graham rule--

It seems to me that as long as Pence doesn't overstep himself (in several different ways), he doesn't deserve to be mocked.

In itself, the BG rule is an admission of personal weakness. We don't routinely mock people for admitting weakness--at least I hope not. (Yeah, of course we do. This is the real world. [Roll Eyes] )

IMHO he doesn't deserve mocking unless:

a) he sets up to tell other people this is what they too ought to be doing, regardless of their own personal weaknesses;

b) he tries to put the blame on other people (i.e. women) for his own weakness in any form, way or shape;

c) he doesn't do everything in his power to mitigate the impact of his own weakness and necessary crutch (the BG rule) on other people. In other words, since he is a politician, and women (just like men) need access to him, occasionally in private, then he is morally bound to make that possible and to an equal degree--that is, to build the freaking glass office, to take along a personal minder on all (not just female) meetings, and so forth. That way nobody gets unfairly disadvantaged.

If he does all this shit, I won't be giving him shit for confessing a weak area. (If he fucks up on one of these things, I won't be defending him.)
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I do not see that avoiding a closed-office situation is necessarily sexist or inegalitarian. In my former working life, I was for a few years in an office where there had been Highly Inappropriate Activity in the workplace, connected with a range of human resources issue. For this reason, when I was an acting manager, I religiously kept an open-door policy to help make clear that this period had ended. I looked upon this as an attempt to professionalize the workplace and reduce the likelihood of sexual access as an expectation. Maybe I overdid it, but I don't think so.

For the same reason, when I was required to travel with a female colleague (who compounded her offence by being young, blonde, and attractive), I had our admin person book us on to separate floors in our hotel. A few months later, one of the finance clerks (who process travel claims & stuff) said that she and others had noticed this and wished that everybody had such sense.

As noted above, I would rather be eaten by a zombie armadillo than vote for Mr Pence. And I would cheerfully treat Brenda Clough's rappelling daughter to cappuccino, should she be passing through Ottawa.

This is sensible and I do it myself if I have to be alone with one person of the opposite sex--hell, the same sex, I'm not an idiot--and particularly if it's a minor.

I've gotten occasional funny looks, but I feel no need to explain myself to them. They haven't lived through a shitstorm of false accusations the way we did (and that with NO possibility, but just try proving a negative, hey?).
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Here's a quite cogent article summarizing what is wrong with Pence's position. It's from the New Yorker and so should be a free click.
The money quote:
"But it’s one thing to avoid a particular situation involving a particular woman who makes you feel a certain way; it’s another entirely to avoid all women as a group and as a rule because of the abstract possibility of sexual temptation. It’s telling, and extremely disheartening, that many people can’t tell the difference—that knowing the best thing to do for your partnership and subscribing wholesale to an idea about gender that calcifies woman as secondary could plausibly seem like the same thing. The Pence approach rules out a lunch meeting or a professional dinner with a woman. It also “included requiring that any aide who had to work late to assist him be male.” As National Journal reported two years ago, other congressmen had similar policies, in some cases to avoid the appearance of impropriety—a policy that, the Journal noted, may very well violate laws against discrimination in the workplace. Certainly, this approach is likely to lead to more all-male meetings of the sort we have seen so frequently in the early days of the Trump Administration. And, outside the professional world, it seems well nigh impossible to view a group of people as fully human if you refuse, categorically, to have them as friends."
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Another (free) analysis of Pence's proclivities.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Oh, this is too good! [Killing me]

"George W. Bush Sums Up Trump Inauguration in Five Words and Hordes Fall in Love with Him for It" (Yahoo).
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

It didn't work for me.
[Frown]
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Interpersonal relationships are not pie. Reducing them to such is putting too little value on women.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes, and I wonder if it's because we think differently.

I place a sharp distinction between instinctive reactions and intellectual thoughts. We can expect people to exert control over their thoughts, and the expression of those thoughts. Changing your instincts is very much harder.

I quite frequently have an instinctive first reaction that I overrule intellectually - but the instinct is faster, and gets there first.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You modify how you think about food.

Yeah, that's my point. I can modify how I think intellectually about food. It's much harder to modify my instinctive reaction to food - perhaps how I feel about food.

And I'd agree with you that the ideal would be to instinctively gravitate towards a healthy diet, but that's really hard to do. Thinking intellectually about a healthy diet, and so not having large supplies of things you know you shouldn't eat lying around, is much easier. So I know that I'm likely to succumb to temptation late at night when I'm tired, so I plan for that by controlling the food that I have access to.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

I think you want this.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

I place a sharp distinction between instinctive reactions and intellectual thoughts. We can expect people to exert control over their thoughts, and the expression of those thoughts. Changing your instincts is very much harder.

I am questioning the level of control that someone exerts over their behaviour. The script has been that men cannot control their lusts and that hiding the women is the only recourse. However much you do not think you believe this, it appears to be ingrained in your thinking. To be fair, it is a common Christian narrative that humans are inveterate sinners that would rape, steal, beat or eat anything they can catch if they do not exert rigid self-control. A false narrative, but an attractive one.
quote:

I quite frequently have an instinctive first reaction that I overrule intellectually - but the instinct is faster, and gets there first.

Everyone does, instincts are hardwired into more primitive parts of our brains.

quote:
Yeah, that's my point. I can modify how I think intellectually about food. It's much harder to modify my instinctive reaction to food - perhaps how I feel about food.

You are not then modifying your behaviour, you are trying to exert self-control. Those are different things.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Various comments:

--From what I've seen, Pence's rule applies to dinner alone with a woman, and social drinking when not with his wife. I haven't seen anything to indicate that he refuses to meet with a woman, ever.

--ISTM that it may be a wise policy, particularly if he has slipped in the past, and considering the things [Eek!] many members of Congress do--and those are just the ones we hear about.The Washington Post has a very balanced (IMHO) consideration of this. (I didn't get a pay wall.)

--FWIW, I thought that, if Bill Clinton became First Gentleman, there should be a rule that a private meeting with a woman required an open door *always*, unless an aide/chaperone were present. He's an admitted sex addict.

--IMHO, T should have a similar rule, given his track record of sexually assaulting women.

--Not sure about the dentist. Not fair to the woman who lost her job. OTOH, if firing her kept him from doing something inappropriate...

--Brenda suggested the dentist could've hired a man, or an unattractive woman. That might be seen as discrimination, and be insulting to the "unattractive" woman.

--Brenda suggested that Pence thinks women are obligated to keep him pure. I disagree. He's got strict rules about his own behavior. He's not making women cover up, or telling other people *they* can't drink. He hasn't blamed women, said they were in league with the devil, etc. (Unlike some of the long-ago Church Fathers.)

--Re the "Madeleine Albright solution": There was a recent episode of "Madam Secretary", that dealt with all this sort of thing, with details and ramifications. Basically, it was about T's proclivities and possibilities--but they couldn't mention him because he's not president in their world. (And because the real T would probably file a lawsuit, IMHO.) Anyway, the episode was really good. And I will just say that the fictional secretary of state handled things in her own unique style. [Smile] I strongly recommend the episode. And maybe every woman who comes anywhere near T should see it soon.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

I think you want this.
The article itself was scathing. And accurate.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
It looks as if a settlement has been agreed in the class action suit about being defrauded by Trump "University", although one victim says she won't sign-up to it because she wants an apology.

Interesting that the legal team representing the POTUS didn't dispute the statement from NY's state attorney general that settling the suit would bring "...relief — and hopefully much-needed closure — to the victims of Donald Trump’s fraudulent university." In other words, DT's own legal people don't dispute that the enterprise was a fraud!
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

I think you want this.
Thanks, LC. The mysteries of linking sometimes baffle me. I am sure however this meme will spread widely without my feeble help, it's too cute.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Various comments:

--Brenda suggested the dentist could've hired a man, or an unattractive woman. That might be seen as discrimination, and be insulting to the "unattractive" woman.

No. Unless he was so foolish as to put in the advertisement for the position "must be a two on the PG scale and/or overweight" or some such denigratory requirement. You are not obliged to hire -any- assistant who applies; you get to select the one that you feel you can work with. Remember this is not a public or government position. This would also be the moment (if we postulate the dentist has other deep-seated prejudices) for him to not hire a black assistant, a gay or lesbian, a Catholic, etc. etc. etc. A modicum of tact is all that is required; he need only keep his issues, sexual, racial, whatever, to himself and no one will ever be the wiser.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You are not then modifying your behaviour, you are trying to exert self-control. Those are different things.

I don't agree that it's not modifying my behaviour. I don't think "behaviour" just means the response of the primitive monkey brain.

quote:
I am questioning the level of control that someone exerts over their behaviour. The script has been that men cannot control their lusts and that hiding the women is the only recourse.
So I'm not seeing this as hiding women so much as the men hiding themselves. It's not about these men requiring women to wear particular clothing, and it's not about saying that she's asking for it if she does wear certain clothing, or goes out in public or whatever. It's about these men not wanting to put themselves in situations where they might be tempted to have thoughts that they don't want to have.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No. Unless he was so foolish as to put in the advertisement for the position "must be a two on the PG scale and/or overweight" or some such denigratory requirement.

Discrimination is discrimination. Stupid racists put up a sign saying "no blacks". Slightly smarter racists just mysteriously have no vacancies when a black man wants to rent a room. Not getting caught is not the same as not discriminating.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No. Unless he was so foolish as to put in the advertisement for the position "must be a two on the PG scale and/or overweight" or some such denigratory requirement.

Discrimination is discrimination. Stupid racists put up a sign saying "no blacks". Slightly smarter racists just mysteriously have no vacancies when a black man wants to rent a room. Not getting caught is not the same as not discriminating.
Agreed.

I'm with Lamb that knowing ourselves, our weaknesses and vulnerabilities and temptations, is key to spiritual maturity and should be taken as a sign of wisdom and humility-- not something to be mocked. But the guardrails we put up to protect our marriage (or whatever) should come at our own expense, not someone else's.

I have to confess that I have mixed feelings about Pence's application of the Billy Graham rule-- in part because, like others, I'm loathe to defend an indefensible politician, but also because Mr Cliff and I have similar practices. For us it's not so much about temptation as just respect for each other's feelings. It may have something to do with baggage from my first marriage to a serial adulterer-- iow, my own vulnerability/burden, not someone else's. But for whatever reason, our pattern is to give each other a heads up if we're going to be dining alone with a member of opposite gender. Again, more about mutual consideration of each other's feelings.

Pence's pattern seems to have come out of an interview-- I'm not really sure who brought it up. What would make me feel uncomfortable about such a rule would be:

1. If it's enforced too rigidly or legalistically-- where you get hysterical or over-anxious about avoiding such an encounter. Again, at least for Mr Cliff & I, simple considerations like letting your spouse know and meeting in a public space seem to be sufficient. Being rigid about it would make it seem like the other person is kryptonite and again denies their agency and free will in the encounter.

2. Related to #1, if your rule starts impacting other people and costing them access, jobs, whatever-- as with the dentist. If the VP is more accessible to male staffers, representatives, etc than female because of his rule, that's a problem and clearly discriminatory.

3. If you're announcing your rule in a way that seems designed to enhance the perception of your piety. The Pence thing seems to be playing out that way-- a sort of "I'm holier than you, Bill Clinton" prideful kind of vibe to it. But again, not knowing the context in which the revelation was made it's hard to know if that's his intent.

Bottom line for me is this is small potatoes compared to all the really, really important reasons to dislike/oppose the VP.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I don't think "behaviour" just means the response of the primitive monkey brain.

Of course it is not "just". Think og behaviour like as a dog. You are saying that your dog wants to bite the postman and the only thing keeping it from doing so it to put it on a chain. I am saying that one can train the dog to not see the postman a a threat.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Remember, our hypothetical dentist can hire only one assistant. He has to select from a number of applicants. It is easy to winnow out the ones who cannot do dental hygiene, don't know how to work the X-ray device, etc. But then what? Then we shift to a more visceral decision. In other words, pure prejudice (agh! A Methodist!) is at the far end of a spectrum. At some point it shades over into a benign decision process. You can't hire them all; you have to pick one and so you do.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Okay, this Pence lunacy tells me he is an uncivilised asshole. Keeping your mind on the humanity of others is the first most basic aspect of respect. Out of control, deformed in personality and morality. Punch in face.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
cliffdweller--

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Pence's pattern seems to have come out of an interview-- I'm not really sure who brought it up.

The Washington Post article, "Mike Pence doesn’t dine alone with other women. And we’re all shocked.", to which I linked a few posts up, mentions that it was from a 2002 comment to The Hill; but I couldn't find it at The Hill's site.

The WP article does link to a recent, long profile of Mike Pence's wife:

"Karen Pence is the vice president’s ‘prayer warrior,’ gut check and shield" (Wash. Post).

Interesting woman, and interesting relationship. (BTW, her charitable thing is promoting art therapy.) The profile briefly mentions the 2002 interview, KP was married previously, when she was young. Her ex said they grew apart, during the long hours he spent away as a medical student--which has me wondering if *he* slipped up, and if that's one reason for MP's rules.

Did anyone have a chance to read that first article? IMHO, calmness and sanity amid the furor. And other members of Congress have similar rules.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I don't think "behaviour" just means the response of the primitive monkey brain.

Of course it is not "just". Think og behaviour like as a dog. You are saying that your dog wants to bite the postman and the only thing keeping it from doing so it to put it on a chain. I am saying that one can train the dog to not see the postman a a threat.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the dog wants to chase the postman, but I've chained it up / shut it in the living room, and that the combination of dog, chains, and living room door is the thing called "behaviour".
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Okay, this Pence lunacy tells me he is an uncivilised asshole. Keeping your mind on the humanity of others is the first most basic aspect of respect. Out of control, deformed in personality and morality. Punch in face.

There appears to be a touch of a kettle-pot comparison in this statement.

But let's leave that aside, and deal with your second sentence. How does this particular aspect of Pence's behaviour make you think he considers others (presumably women) to be non-human?

I hold no brief for Mike Pence, I disagree with probably almost every one of his policies, and if he came in dripping wet carrying an umbrella and told me it was raining, I'd still want to look outside and check.

Specifically, we are discussing the claims that Mike Pence:

Yes, this is dripping with the conservative culture-scares about sex and alcohol, but how does this in any sense diminish anyone's humanity? I assume, by the way, that Mrs. Pence doesn't dine with lone men either.

I suppose I'm saying that these kinds of attitudes often go hand-in-hand with patriarchal chauvinism, but they don't have to, and so Mike Pence isn't a patriarchal chauvinist because he holds these attitudes.

He is a patriarchal chauvinist, as demonstrated by many of his other behaviours and policies, but not because of this.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
In other words, since he is a politician, and women (just like men) need access to him, occasionally in private, then he is morally bound to make that possible and to an equal degree--that is, to build the freaking glass office, to take along a personal minder on all (not just female) meetings, and so forth.

Yes, I'd agree with this. Working late with lone men, but not lone women is a problem for the woman's career. Etc, etc.

So if you're going to have this kind of rule at work (rather than in your social life), you need to apply it to men as well. If you need to work late, keep two aides to work with you, or none. (I don't think Mike Pence is exotic enough for any impropriety that might involve more than two people.) Travel and dine with two staffers, not one - or take your wife along all the time.

But what if you can only afford to employ one aide? Would a Mike Pence ever hire a woman as his single aide? It's hard to see how he could, and remain within his other strictures. It's rather like the dentist, but expanded to be any woman, rather than just a woman he finds attractive.

We had an argument some time ago about barbers, brought on by a woman who wanted a male-style cut from a barber (much cheaper than the ladies' hairdresser) and was denied service. One of the examples that arose in that discussion was a potential barber who didn't want to cut a woman's hair for reasons of his own personal modesty (perhaps his religion doesn't allow physical contact between unrelated men and women). Should he be permitted to offer barbering services to men only?

(Privacy and decency are generally exceptions to sex discrimination law. If you're hiring someone to provide you with intimate personal care, it is legal to require them to be the same sex as you. It would seem to be a rather large stretch to extend this to aides you hire to travel with you, but perhaps you could make that fly.)
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the dog wants to chase the postman, but I've chained it up / shut it in the living room, and that the combination of dog, chains, and living room door is the thing called "behaviour".

You are repressing a desire, refraining from a behaviour, not modifying behaviour.
You are not changing the way you think, is this better?
Whatever reason Pence has in his own head for what he is doing, it is still a behaviour that hurts women.
And I maintain that people are allowing the idea that humans are helpless sinners that must fight to control their terrible desires is underpinning this thought pattern.
And that denies agency, and doing so is antithetical to Jesus' teachings.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

You are not changing the way you think, is this better?

No, that's completely not what I am saying. If you are overruling your monkey-brain response with rational thought, you are exactly changing the way you think.

Rational thought is thinking. It's the instinctive monkey response that isn't thinking.

Overriding the monkey is exactly what agency is.

[ 02. April 2017, 06:17: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This should be a free click: the LA Times, one of our major metropolitan newspapers, weighs in against the PG. First in a series exploring his perfidies to date; it'll clearly be an open-ended one.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Good grief. I still find it hard to believe that (some) Americans actually chose this man as their President.

Hopefully, it won't be too long before he shoots himself down in flames....

[Ultra confused]

IJ
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Leorning posts:
quote:
But what if you can only afford to employ one aide? Would a Mike Pence ever hire a woman as his single aide? It's hard to see how he could, and remain within his other strictures. It's rather like the dentist, but expanded to be any woman, rather than just a woman he finds attractive.
As Vice President Spence has 24 officer-level staff, and Lord knows how many support staff, it would not be a problem to set up a two-member rota to assist him after the regular work day (although, if it's anything like a Canadian ministerial work day, it's 12-14 hours).

Challenges to this pattern would occur more at the MP/Representative level, where staff tends to be less numerous but, as I've suggested before, some effort needs to be made to avoid problems and perceptions of problems.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

Challenges to this pattern would occur more at the MP/Representative level, where staff tends to be less numerous but, as I've suggested before, some effort needs to be made to avoid problems and perceptions of problems.

Yeah - that's what I meant by "a Mike Pence" - someone of his views, but a junior politician with limited staff.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
No, that's completely not what I am saying. If you are overruling your monkey-brain response with rational thought, you are exactly changing the way you think.

What you are doing is attempting to control the desire, not trying to modify that desire. You dog will still bite, given the opportunity. My dog can be trusted alone with the postman.

quote:

Overriding the monkey is exactly what agency is.

I think it more than this. When Jesus spoke about lusting in the heart, it doesn't make sense to think of it in terms of the automatic responses which humans have. This removes agency and is, in part what you are doing. You will be attracted to whatever floats your boat, that is difficult to control. What you can control is where your mind goes from there.
Other than bastards who just cheat, affairs are not a matter of opportunity, it is a process. And controlling that process is what avoids an affair, not slavish adherence to segregation.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I like lilbuddha's idea of retraining, but I think it can be very hard for some people. Some people have learned to eroticize lots of things, for example, loneliness, power, shame, and moving out of this is very difficult.

By exploring this stuff explicitly (talk therapy), you can retrain your mind and automatic reactions. If you keep it repressed, it may rear up and bite you. Hence, headlines about 'homophobic preacher caught with rentboy'.

'Helpless sinners' is an interesting idea in this context; must think more on it.

[ 03. April 2017, 17:48: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I like lilbuddha's idea of retraining, but I think it can be very hard for some people. Some people have learned to eroticize lots of things, for example, loneliness, power, shame, and moving out of this is very difficult.

I am not saying that it is easy. But we do it all the time, especially in the workplace.
We are social creatures, but nothing in our evolution points directly to large populations. These are a result of retraining, not merely restraining.*


*Unless you are into that. #not judging.

[ 03. April 2017, 18:25: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Well, some people want to shag everything that moves, but maybe this is going o/t.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
The US election aftermath and effect of Trump's shock victory
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, some people might want to shag everything that moves

Just trying link back on topic [Biased]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Bannon is no longer on the NSC.

Hooray?
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Bannon is no longer on the NSC.

Hooray?

What struck me about that article was this bit:

quote:
The aide said Mr. Bannon was only given a seat on the NSC to keep an eye on National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, who was fired in February.
Maybe it's just me, but if you feel the need to "keep an eye on" someone it's a bad idea to make them your National Security Advisor or have them on the National Security Council.

Also, given that that source of this article is an anonymous "White House aide" I'd say Trump's crackdown on leaking is going about as well as his Obamacare repeal.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
The aide said Mr. Bannon was only given a seat on the NSC to keep an eye on National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, who was fired in February.
Maybe it's just me, but if you feel the need to "keep an eye on" someone it's a bad idea to make them your National Security Advisor or have them on the National Security Council.
It also suggests they knew Flynn shouldn't have been there in the first place. Hardly a foresighted defence strategy?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Remember that "keep an eye on" means a different thing in the PGinC's lexicon. You and I assume that it means that Flynn was untrustworthy, incapable, liable to fail at being NSC chief, all the usual things. And that therefore this called for close parental supervision, so that bad things would not happen. The same way you would 'keep an eye on' your six-year-old when you sit him at the wheel of your car.
Lyin' Don keeps an eye on people for one thing only -- disloyalty to himself. On every other subject and eventuality, the chips may fall where they will.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
OK, this is -great-. A minor bureaucrat ("seemed destined to pass directly from obscurity to oblivion") steps into the lists against the PGinC and becomes a hero ("brad pitt for us smart girls!"). He even attended the high school in my town. What a pity his term is coming to an end! I tremble to think who might next get the job. You think Jared Kushner has any spare time?
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I tremble to think who might next get the job. You think Jared Kushner has any spare time?

Maybe not, but now Bannon does! [Paranoid]
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
I don't understand how Trump's view of Assad could have changed.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Martin--

Two possibilities, that I can think of:

1) He watched so much CNN that he was made to see injured and dead kids over and over, and he finally got it.

2) Ivanka and/or Melania had a private discussion with him, and he finally got it.

I think he's pre-disposed to like any of the "strong-man" leaders. He even admires Mubarak of Egypt. So he's got to have a lot of clashing in his mind about this. We'll see how long his momentary insight lasts.

[Votive]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
I think it is fairly obvious that he didn't pay great attention to world events prior to being elected. And he never had to do more than bloviate.
 
Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
He seemed pretty sure about Syria in 2013...

http://www.npr.org/2017/04/04/522627064/on-the-record-president-trump-vs-private-citizen-trump-on-syria

[ 06. April 2017, 11:28: Message edited by: beatmenace ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
He seemed pretty sure about Syria in 2013...

http://www.npr.org/2017/04/04/522627064/on-the-record-president-trump-vs-private-citizen-trump-on-syria

OK, poorly stated on my part. He does pay attention to the propaganda on Faux and Dimbart, but not what is actually happening. Assad has been perpetrating atrocities on his citizens for years. And this even his first use of chemical weapons.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
So Nunes has recused himself from the hacking probe and the GOP has busted the filibuster.

I keep trying to stop following this trainwreck but stuff just keeps happening.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
So Nunes has recused himself from the hacking probe and the GOP has busted the filibuster.

Nunes will be replaced by Mike Conaway, another Republican with ties to the Trump campaign. I'm sure this will in no way influence his willingness to investigate the Trump campaign. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A how-things-stand-now piece from New York Magazine. It should be a free click. The author argues that Lyin' Don may be the final nail in the GOP coffin.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Drat, forgot to append the money quote, which is a gem:
'Michael Anton’s now-iconic essay, “The Flight 93 Election,” made the case for Trump as a desperation gamble. (Hence the metaphor to a hijacked airline flight whose passengers had to choose a desperate and probably doomed fight over certain death.) Anton, now a staffer in Trump’s administration, saw another four years of Democratic presidencies as the end of white America and conservative America. Most Republicans — even those, like Anton, deeply suspicious of Trump — ultimately agreed. Almost the entire GOP decided its hatred or fear of Clinton overrode their misgivings about their own nominee, and, with varying levels of enthusiasm, supported Trump. They brought disaster upon their country, but as a small measure of compensatory justice, they have also brought it upon their party. By the time Trump has departed the Oval Office, they will look longingly at a staid, boxed-in Clinton presidency as a road not taken.'
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
QUESTION: Do you think if you gave Trump a globe with no writing on it he'd be able to locate, even approximately, Syria? Just idle conjecture.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
QUESTION: Do you think if you gave Trump a globe with no writing on it he'd be able to locate, even approximately, Syria? Just idle conjecture.

His first question: "It's round? Like a golf ball?"
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Sadly, a significant proportion of the American population probably could not. So in that he probably fairly represents the nation. We are as a nation painfully light on geography. There are some appalling late-night TV man-on-the-street interviews about this.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Last fall when Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson asked "What is Aleppo?" the Opinions Editor of the Phoenix newspaper was quite snarky -- after all, EVERYONE knows that Aleppo is the capital of Syria! (I sent her an email correcting her.)

A Presidential candidate should know what and where Aleppo is. A Newspaper editor should know what and where Aleppo is, especially before she's contemptuous of someone else.

Unfortunately, they're both pretty typical.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Russia will not give Assad up. Ever.

They will not allow the UN in to prove he did what no one else could.

Taking out his air force means the Russians will take up the slack.

Take out his air force and enforce a no-fly zone for any surviving Syrian aircraft.

That way he can't gas babies and bomb the hospitals they're taken to.

Anything less and Trump will look as nearly as weak as Obama.

Anything more destabilizes Syria and the entire Sunni-Shia patchwork balance.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
50 to 60 US Tomahawks have just hit a regime airbase in Syria. An early report also says that Putin was not informed in advance. The targeting is connected with intelligence re chemical weapons capability.

Reality just bit.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Now would be a good time to pray.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
I really, really wish that Trump wasn't going to be in my state. If there is retaliation, I don't want any of my loved ones to be collateral damage.

Praying seems to be the best idea right now. [Votive]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Now would be a good time to pray.

God help us-- and them.
[Votive] [Votive] [Votive] [Votive]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
A hundred years ago today was the day that the US entered WW1. No writer would ever have set up events this way, it's too pat. We are trapped in a melodrama written by a hack.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
The Sunni/shia balance is well and truly destabilised Martin. Yemen is the immediate proof, but the existence of ISIS and the civil war in Iraq are too.

I'm glad the United States attacked Syria in this way, although an attack on the compound where Assad is staying would be good too. I think its a measured response to chemical weapons use. Every time a government uses these weapons there should be a response like this. Attacks on the individuals involved in making a decision to use chemical weapons are the best way to make the decision harder in the future.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
The thing that bothers me about it is its unpredictability in the light of former policy orientations. I would imagine that other states that have previously had support, albeit arms'-length support, of the US, must be wondering if the tune might suddenly change for them too.

The way the action was taken (rather than the action itself) appears destabilising to me.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
50 to 60 US Tomahawks have just hit a regime airbase in Syria. An early report also says that Putin was not informed in advance. The targeting is connected with intelligence re chemical weapons capability.

Reality just bit.

I was out by 10-20.

This will give North Korea pause for thought.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
@simontoad. My realpolitik wiring agrees.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This will give North Korea pause for thought.

Again, maybe it will, but mostly in the way that the Dear Leader gives the rest of the world pause for thought, i.e. not in a good way but on grounds of unpredictability.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
That's all factored in. Kim Wrong Un can be as unpredictable as he wants, he can't launch a nuke. Yet. Trump is implying he NEVER will.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
I really, really wish that Trump wasn't going to be in my state. If there is retaliation, I don't want any of my loved ones to be collateral damage.

Praying seems to be the best idea right now. [Votive]

There will be no retaliation. An unstable lone wolf might be encouraged to go berserk.

Praying is good for the prayor.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Now would be a good time to pray.

What?
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Who knows what Trump is trying to do in Syria, but his intervention is in line with his obsession with Obama: anything Obama did or failed to do has to be reversed. It is also the case that the US has an interest in keeping the Syrian situation on the boil because it gets Russia further embroiled at increasing financial, military and political cost to itself. Missile strikes at Syrian military targets, by contrast, are low cost to the US. How this helps the Syrian civilian population is anyone's guess.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
They won't get nerve gassed again. Unless Assad uses ground based missiles. Mortars more likely. Which he will if he can. He has no internal Western constraints whatsoever. It would be the smart thing to do in fact as that would force Trump to attack army and government targets to little effect, Assad isn't Gaddafi with a couple of jeepsful of thugs, and would further demoralize the Sunni insurrection. The region plays by Hama Rules, always has, not just since '82 when Hama was levelled. Assad CANNOT lose.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Praying is good for the prayor.

This is a bad thing how?
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Not at all. Au contraire. It's at least the ultimate placebo. I'm all for it. I may talk to God about it all at some point, but probably not. Although I don't want to backslide in to advocating war as the result of realistically analysing such situations. I'd happily pray to endorse and encourage any incarnational action by anyone. And bow my head and assent amen in any placebo ritual.

I do take up God's complete and utter ongoing nonintervention with Him. As if He weren't. We have a laugh about it even.

[ 07. April 2017, 13:43: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
50 to 60 US Tomahawks have just hit a regime airbase in Syria. An early report also says that Putin was not informed in advance. The targeting is connected with intelligence re chemical weapons capability.

Reality just bit.

Whose early report? Of course he was, and he was. I was out by 11 or 12 if they can make their minds up.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Someone implied that Syria was once a friend of the USA, even perhaps a client. Or I misread something... who knows. Anyway, Syria under the Assad family was always a client of the Ruskies.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
How this helps the Syrian civilian population is anyone's guess.

Remind me which one of the bastards actually gives a shit about them?
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
But...but...Chumpkin loves the 'beautiful babies'....doesn't he?

(As long as they don't poo on his golf courses)

[Paranoid]

IJ
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
50 to 60 US Tomahawks have just hit a regime airbase in Syria. An early report also says that Putin was not informed in advance. The targeting is connected with intelligence re chemical weapons capability.

Reality just bit.

Whose early report? Of course he was, and he was. I was out by 11 or 12 if they can make their minds up.
I was watching CNN (Anderson Cooper) and I think it was a flash comment from one of the news team. Not saying it was right - it was a confusing few hours.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Ahhhh, there you go B62. It wasn't the Beeb was it?
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
So, '62 anyone?
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I read it on the BBC website, Martin.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
The stream's moved on. I'd like to see how the BBC reported it nonetheless.

As for my '62 query above, that's not chasing Barnabas62, but the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.

Russian and Iran are now threatening America. Didn't see that one coming! They just want the chance to try and shoot down some cruise missiles. Funny they didn't try last week.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As for my '62 query above, that's not chasing Barnabas62, but the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.

Wait a moment! Barnabas62, the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, B62's profile pic...hmmm. Coincidence? I think not.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A hundred years ago today was the day that the US entered WW1. No writer would ever have set up events this way, it's too pat. We are trapped in a melodrama written by a hack.

I am probably the last of my family who will be able to say this. My great-grandfather suffered a Mustard Gas attack on the Western Front in 1917. His respirator was shot off.

He survived, but his lungs were poor for the rest of his life. He died in the 1950's, and left my great-grandmother a widow for 40 years, she didn't pass away until 1993. That was extremely hard on her, and the rest of the family.

No, I have no sympathy for the use of chemical weapons. None. 100 years later and the wretched weapons are going to do it all over again to some other family.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Good on you sober preacher's kid. My Grandpa was at Galipolli and then on the Western Front. He died in his 50's too. We found his grave again last year going for a walk on the anniversary of my father's death. I don't know if he was gassed, but I don't think so.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
[Hot and Hormonal] I was 62 years old when I joined the Ship and there was another Barnabas Shipmate at the time. So I picked a number, without thinking obsolescence. Silly me.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Similar reason, me. I wanted to declutter myself!
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
[Hot and Hormonal] I was 62 years old when I joined the Ship and there was another Barnabas Shipmate at the time. So I picked a number, without thinking obsolescence. Silly me.

Sure, 0062, sure.

[ 11. April 2017, 16:19: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
WTF, Sean Spicer?

quote:
“We didn’t use chemical weapons in World War II,” Spicer told reporters, as he criticized the Russian government for its support of Assad. “Someone who is despicable as Hitler who didn't even sink to using chemical weapons. You have to, if you're Russia, ask yourself, is this a country that you, and a regime that you want to align yourself with?”

In fact, Hitler’s Nazi Germany did use chemical weapons, most notably through the Holocaust, the genocidal program intended to murder Europe’s entire Jewish population. Many of the Jews who died in the Holocaust were killed in gas chambers using Zyklon B and other poisons.

Spicer's attempt to walk this back was even worse, referring to the camps as "Holocaust Centers" and drawing a distinction between Holocaust victims and Hitler's "own people". Most of what's wrong here is summarized in this tweet. This has to be one of the worst cases of flack malpractice I've ever seen. You don't go full Godwin while forgetting about the Holocaust from behind a podium at the White House, and you sure as heck don't do it on the first day of Passover!
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Exactly which planet is this numpty from? He'll be saying next that the Holocaust either didn't happen, or was the Jews' own fault, or something worse.... [Eek!]

IJ
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
Spicer walk-back, take one:

quote:
In no way was I trying to lessen the horrendous nature of the Holocaust, however, I was trying to draw a contrast of the tactic of using airplanes to drop chemical weapons on innocent people.
Someone apparently noticed the unfortunate contrasting of Assad's victims ("innocent people") with Hitler's (maybe not so "innocent"), so take two:

quote:
In no way was I trying to lessen the horrendous nature of the Holocaust, however, I was trying to draw a contrast of the tactic of using airplanes to drop chemical weapons on population centers.
"Population centers" sounds a bit clinical, and a lot like you're making a semantic distinction based on geography. Take three:

quote:
In no way was I trying to lessen the horrendous nature of the Holocaust, however, I was trying to draw a contrast of the tactic of using airplanes to drop chemical weapons on population centers. Any attack on innocent people is reprehensible and inexcusable.
Given that this pretty much erases his whole "Assad is worse than Hitler" point, I expect take four to come along shortly.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Exactly which planet is this numpty from? He'll be saying next that the Holocaust either didn't happen, or was the Jews' own fault, or something worse.... [Eek!]

What do you mean "next"? I'm pretty sure claiming 'Hitler never gassed anyone' is denying the Holocaust happened.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
I think Mr. Spicer needs to go back to playing the Easter Bunny.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I think Mr. Spicer needs to go back to playing the Easter Bunny.

Maybe not. There looks to be some trouble there, too.

quote:
By that time, the ovoid uncertainty had raised a question perhaps not as consequential as investigations into Russian interference in the presidential election, a legally dubious travel ban and a collapsed health care bill, but no less a window into the inner workings of the Trump administration: Could this White House, plagued by slow hiring and lacking an on-site first lady, manage to pull off the largest, most elaborate and most heavily scrutinized public event of the year?

“It’s the single most high-profile event that takes place at the White House each year, and the White House and the first lady are judged on how well they put it on,” said Melinda Bates, who organized eight years of Easter Egg Rolls as director of the White House Visitors Office under President Bill Clinton. “I’m really concerned for the Trump people, because they have failed to fill some really vital posts, and this thing is all hands on deck.”

<snip>

The evidence points to a quickly thrown-together affair that people close to the planning said would probably draw about 20,000 people — substantially smaller than last year’s Easter Egg Roll, which drew 37,000. It will be staffed by 500 volunteers, Ms. Grisham said, half the usual. number. Ms. Grisham said she did not have “firm numbers” on the overall number of attendees, and those who provided estimates did so on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to describe the plans for the Easter Egg Roll, which are still evolving just a week before the event.


The White House has ordered 40,000 of the commemorative eggs — about half of the roughly 85,000 ordered in 2016 — with 18,000 to be given away at the Easter Egg Roll and another 22,000 available for sale, according to Lara Kline, the vice president for marketing and communications at the White House Historical Association, the official retailer.

Can these people do anything right?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Can these people do anything right?

Fool the electorate?


OK, OK, not the majority, but enough of them.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.

OTOH, he may be in way over his head, and not able to think well on his feet (if so, then totally in the wrong job)...or he might be a jerk.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.

Yes, I thought that.

quote:
OTOH, he may be in way over his head, and not able to think well on his feet (if so, then totally in the wrong job)...or he might be a jerk.
I thought that, too.

(And, by the way, I am of 100% Jewish descent; many members of my family died in the Holocaust).
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
BT--

I'm sorry about your relatives.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

OTOH, he may be in way over his head, and not able to think well on his feet (if so, then totally in the wrong job)...or he might be a jerk.

He is unquestionably in the wrong job. This is a prerequisite for the Trump administration, it would appear.
Short tempered, easily frustrated but not a jerk as far as I have seen.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
BTW, what happened to Kellyanne Conway? I did a quick search, but couldn't really find anything. (Though there was a mention of something to do with Michael Flynn.)

Thx.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I think Mr. Spicer needs to go back to playing the Easter Bunny.

Maybe not. There looks to be some trouble there, too.

If they manage to pull this off and attract a few hundred kids, I'm sure the PG will brag about how it was the bigliest Easter Egg Roll ever and he had many more attendees than Obama ever did.
 
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
[qb] ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.

Yes, I thought that.

I could well imagine doing that. Once you stop and think, it's obvious (and you can see what a stupid and hurtful thing it is to say).
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.

OTOH, he may be in way over his head, and not able to think well on his feet (if so, then totally in the wrong job)
...or he might be a jerk.

If the former is true, it means the latter is as well.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
And "I forgot the thing Hitler is most infamous for during my Hitler comparison" is not a particularly sympathetic explanation.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Well, when I first heard a little bit about this, last night, it was just "Spicer said Hitler never used chemical weapons, like Assad did". I started trying to think if I knew anything about that, and decided I didn't.

I didn't make the connection to the concentration camps. I take the Holocaust very seriously. But I was specifically thinking in terms of chemical bombs (?). With time to think, I probably would've made the connection, provided I changed the category from "chemical weapons that creep used" to "unspeakable things that creep did".

So it's plausible to me that Spicer compartmentalized. Whether or not he did, I don't know.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
[qb] ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.

Yes, I thought that.

I could well imagine doing that. Once you stop and think, it's obvious (and you can see what a stupid and hurtful thing it is to say).
Stopping and thinking is not something either Spicer or 45 have often been accused of.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
If Spicer was compartamentalizing, then his statement is kind of like saying "Charles Manson was horrible; even the Son Of Sam didn't murder people in their own homes", and then defending yourself by saying you were emphasizing the "...in their own homes part". But of course, there really isn't any moral difference between venues when it comes to killing people.

In any case, Spicer broke one of the two cardinal rules of political discission: DON'T MENTION HITLER. It usually does not end well, especially so when your point is to minimize(even relatively) the severity of his crimes.

(The other rule is "Always assume the microphone is on. No sympathy for anyone who gets in trouble for things said in front of a visible mike, even if he had every reason to assume it was off.)
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
By any standards, the Hitler reference was an appalling error.

But I think Spicer's problem is that he is forced to compartmentalise all the time. There is the Trump version of reality and there is reality.

I don't think Spicer is dumb. I think anyone doing the job for Trump must have to live with high levels of cognitive dissonance.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
In any case, Spicer broke one of the two cardinal rules of political discission: DON'T MENTION HITLER. It usually does not end well, especially so when your point is to minimize (even relatively) the severity of his crimes.

Or, as Charlie Pierce put it:

quote:
I don't know what they teach folks in Flack School but, surely, don't talk about Hitler from behind a podium with a presidential seal on it has to be no worse than Lesson Number Three. My guess is that's been an iron rule for White House press secretaries since V-E Day.

 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.

OTOH, he may be in way over his head, and not able to think well on his feet (if so, then totally in the wrong job)...or he might be a jerk.

All of which wouldn't be so bad if the excessive narcissism of this administration didn't disallow any possible admission of making a mistake. As always, the attempts to explain away a careless misstatement made things far worse than the initial gaffe (saying Hitler didn't target "his own people" seems to marginalize German Jews in almost precisely the same way Hitler himself did). Were Spicer instead capable of doing the very normal human thing the rest of us do each & every day: "oops-- I misspoke. My apologies" (I just sent almost precisely that email moments ago)-- it would be a nonevent, a blip on the radar.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Looks like Trump and his lackeys have forgotten that no gun is more dangerous than an unloaded one.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
By any standards, the Hitler reference was an appalling error.

But I think Spicer's problem is that he is forced to compartmentalise all the time. There is the Trump version of reality and there is reality.

I don't think Spicer is dumb. I think anyone doing the job for Trump must have to live with high levels of cognitive dissonance.

A BA in government and a recent MA in national security and strategic studies. Not exactly Ivy League or as good as any fictional press secretary as in West Wing or Designated Survivor.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Sioni Sais--

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Looks like Trump and his lackeys have forgotten that no gun is more dangerous than an unloaded one.

Would you explain this, please? Thx.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Sioni Sais--

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Looks like Trump and his lackeys have forgotten that no gun is more dangerous than an unloaded one.

Would you explain this, please? Thx.
Gun safety #101. If you treat a gun like it's unloaded it instantly becomes more dangerous, because you underrate its potential for harm.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I am getting mightily fed up with the expression "his own people". I know it is supposed to multiply the horror because they are supposed to be in his care, but it implies ownership, as if they were slaves.
 
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I am getting mightily fed up with the expression "his own people". I know it is supposed to multiply the horror because they are supposed to be in his care, but it implies ownership, as if they were slaves.

Yes, me too, for the same reason. It's one of those pat phrases that politicians think sound profound and appealing so they repeat it ad nauseam (cf "hard-working families" in the UK. Grrrr).
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
It also implies that there are others (Jews? Gypsies? Black people?) who do not fit into the 'ours' category. That's the first step on the long slippery slope that we all know well.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It also implies that there are others (Jews? Gypsies? Black people?) who do not fit into the 'ours' category. That's the first step on the long slippery slope that we all know well.

Exactly.

It's irony in the extreme that an administration so keen to 'other' groups of people used another such regime as an example.

Trumpism is already on that slippery slope [Mad]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It also implies that there are others (Jews? Gypsies? Black people?) who do not fit into the 'ours' category. That's the first step on the long slippery slope that we all know well.

Yes. The fact that Spicer used almost precisely the same rhetorical device as Hitler to explain away his Holocaust gaffe demonstrates exactly what is so chilling about this administration.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
We went downtown and marched in the Tax March last weekend, and it was very hot. Today we went down for the March For Science, which was rainy and cold. Here's a web article about the March with a very brief interview and photograph of myself, about two thirds of the way down.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We went downtown and marched in the Tax March last weekend, and it was very hot. Today we went down for the March For Science, which was rainy and cold. Here's a web article about the March with a very brief interview and photograph of myself, about two thirds of the way down.

That's great Brenda - and an excellent sign which deserves to go viral.


[Smile]
 
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
I did the March for Science here in NYC today. It was awesome.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I haven't had a report back from the friend on the London one yet, but someone has posted this on another board.

To be peer-reviewed: Newsbiscuit
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I have made more than a dozen signs now for various marches, and I've put them all up on my Pinterest page so that people can borrow them at need. The ones from yesterday I released into the wild, handing them off to friends to carry in the actual march for me. (I had theater tickets in the pm, purchased last year.)
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Here's a not too nice reminder that the present divisions in the polity of the United States is situation normal, and why folk music is due for a massive comeback.

Phil Ochs: Here's to the State of Mississippi
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Thanks! That song had passed me by, which I regret after hearing it.

You're right about the potential power of folk music. Some of the 60s songs have, rightly, become iconic, immortal, for the truths they reveal and proclaim.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
OMG! A photo of my signs is in the New York Times!
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
... and the Wall came tumbling down ..

Even before it was built. Budget reality bites. Anti-free trade deals next?

He should have listened. I suppose he is going to have to start listening now.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
The Great Negotiator caves.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
yeah, I dunno about the whole listening thing. I think Trump is more into the scapegoat and denial thing.

Do you think the Russian inquiry has run its course in the media? That would be a pity. I was really enjoying it. I did hear that Sally Yates was going to testify as to why Flynn got canned.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
It may be gone in the media, but it's not gone. All they need is the House to flip.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Do you think the Russian inquiry has run its course in the media?

Not really. Every couple of days there's something new. As this tweet notes, various Trump-friendly media outlets seem to be preparing an Iran-Contra style defense. ("The president never knew what was going on under his nose.")
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
"Exclusive: Trump says he thought being president would be easier than his old life" (Yahoo).

Among other things, he's still fussing about the election. And I heard that he spends most of his evenings alone, and can't really cope with that.

And Thursday's Stephen Colbert show monologue said, among other things, "maybe we can put a letter of resignation in front of him to sign". There was a film clip of T saying that "sometimes I look at what I'm signing".

IME, Stephen makes coping at least possible, for me.
 
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Colbert is wonderful. I loathe the format, so just watch clips of him on you tube. His Trent Brockman is more memorable to me than the guy he's parodying. It is independently funny.

Incidentally, we have a right wing nutjob radio host called Alan Jones. Is it something about the name, or are there just so many of the bastards that it becomes a percentages thing?

I saw a great Trump impersonator on The Daily Show the other day. He has really nailed the impression, so much so that he was getting heckled by some people at the Tax Rally where he appeared.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
Here's an interesting analysis on the effect of voter ID laws (summary, longer version). The basic conclusion is that states with strict voter ID laws saw their voter participation fall while states without such laws saw their voter participation increase. The effect seems to preferentially effect the poor, the young, and particularly African-Americans.

The analysis estimates that the effect of voter ID laws in Wisconsin were enough to shift the outcome of that state in the 2016 presidential election. (Flipping Wisconsin would not have been enough to reverse the result of the election as a whole.) Given that suppressing the vote in this way seems to work for them, you can see why Republicans are so enthusiastic about such laws.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.

I think it can be fine in a relatively equal society where the ID itself is free, and relatively easy to get even if one lives a peripatetic lifestyle.

The problem is the rest of the context, where it isn't free, where polling stations are few and far between (especially in minority areas), and where this means that queues are such that it takes a disproportionate amount of the day of a time-poor individual.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.

In theory, yes. But a lot of it hinges on application. The U.S. has no national identity cards for its citizens. Most don't even possess passports. So the patchwork system of proof-of-identity that's grown up over the years has a lot of holes in it and most states where this kind of law has been enacted have been . . . let's say "suspiciously particular" about what forms of identity verification they'll accept as valid (e.g. state-issued hunting licenses or gun permits, but not state-issued student IDs). Others are more obvious about it, like Alabama passing a voter ID law and then attempting to close down most of the DMVs in the predominantly black parts of the state. The idea is similar to the newer tactics of abortion opponents; not an outright ban but throwing up enough bureaucratic hurdles it shaves off enough votes at the margin to tip things the 'right' way. If you have to make a 100 mile round trip to get an ID there's going to be a certain percentage of people who either can't or won't make the trip.

And the other issue is that this seems to be a solution in search of a problem. In-person voter impersonation fraud is vanishingly rare in the U.S. The most common form of election fraud in the U.S. (not particularly common, but a lot more common than in-person voter impersonation) is shenanigans by whoever controls the ballot box (or modern electronic equivalent) and counts the votes. This type of election fraud would not be prevented by voter ID laws. The next most common (but a lot less common than ballot-box tampering) is remote voter impersonation, usually where someone fills out a mail-in ballot in someone else's name. Since mail-in ballots usually go through the ordinary U.S. Post, which does not require ID, this type of election fraud would also not be prevented by voter ID laws. The least common type of election fraud in the U.S. (as best we can gauge these things) is in-person voter impersonation, where someone shows up at a polling station and fraudulently claims to be someone else.

In other words, a lot more legislative energy and bureaucratic fuss is being expended than can be reasonably explained by the scope of the problem of letting a senior citizen identify themselves with an expired driver's license (because they don't drive any more).
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The problem is the rest of the context, where it isn't free, where polling stations are few and far between (especially in minority areas), and where this means that queues are such that it takes a disproportionate amount of the day of a time-poor individual.

This is the other problem with voter ID laws; adding an extra 30-60 seconds per voter for an ID check to gum up the works of an already under-staffed voting process. A lot of American voters don't have an extra 3 hours to take out of their day to wait in line. Having to arrange a baby sitter and time off of work to vote is going to shave off another few percentage points of eligible voters.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
It seems to me that the location/density of polling stations is a separate issue to voter ID.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It seems to me that the location/density of polling stations is a separate issue to voter ID.

Not necessarily. Adding an additional pointless check to the voting process will cause a slight delay in voting times for well-staffed polling stations serving relatively few voters, but polling stations expected to serve more will end up with significant back-ups. The point of deliberately setting up multiple bureaucratic hurdles isn't that any one of them is insurmountable, but that they accumulate into a true disaster in the right circumstances.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Each hurdle in the series is a separate issue. On the face of it, organising access to polling stations is less contentious than voter ID, and enlisting more volunteers less contentious than either.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
In the US voter ID and registration has historically been a way to keep persons of color from voting. It just sounds better to denounce voter fraud than it is to say that black people shouldn't be allowed at the polls.
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Each hurdle in the series is a separate issue. On the face of it, organising access to polling stations is less contentious than voter ID, and enlisting more volunteers less contentious than either.

Given that voter ID laws are about "access to polling stations", I don't see how they're separate issues. You might just as well argue that DMV closures have nothing to do with voter ID requirements either.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I have no doubt that this variation on gerrymandering is alive and well, but access to polling stations in terms of being within a reasonable distance of one and not queue for an inordinate amount of time at it is a separate (although related) question to that of what if any form of ID one is required to produce.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have no doubt that this variation on gerrymandering is alive and well, but access to polling stations in terms of being within a reasonable distance of one and not queue for an inordinate amount of time at it is a separate (although related) question to that of what if any form of ID one is required to produce.

"Just go get your ID" is the same bullshit to people who do not have a car or time and/or in areas which public transport is infrequent or absent.
The intent is to disenfranchise minorities.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
OK. I guess this is one of those times when as a European I forget that the USA is essentially a loose coalition of independent states, but it still blows my mind that for a national election, the same procedures do not apply everywhere.

A cursory search suggests that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 21
quote:
"The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot or by equivalent free voting procedures."
is, apparently, reflected in the 15th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th Amendments to the US Constitution (not that I have looked to see precisely what those say).

What's the mileage in bringing a case on the grounds of non-universal, unequal suffrage up through the courts?

[ 09. May 2017, 21:26: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

This is the other problem with voter ID laws; adding an extra 30-60 seconds per voter for an ID check to gum up the works of an already under-staffed voting process. A lot of American voters don't have an extra 3 hours to take out of their day to wait in line. Having to arrange a baby sitter and time off of work to vote is going to shave off another few percentage points of eligible voters.

Which is why, for us, Saturday voting is an essential part of the process and has been for well over 100 years. In those days, few people worked on Saturdays - farmers milked, people drove trains, shops were open - but factory and office workers and their wives* could attend the booths. One would stay outside with the children while the other voted, then swap roles.

*That's how it largely was then.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Over at Esquire, the great Charles Pierce discusses voter suppression in his inimitable style.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What's the mileage in bringing a case on the grounds of non-universal, unequal suffrage up through the courts?

Some, apparently.
 


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