quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.

---

How so? Did Mrs Clinton's womanhood cause her, for example, to get a private e-mail server?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy in the main thread:
Possibly worth saying that it looks like the Republicans now have a majority in the House of Representatives and the Senate.

Which is a bit of a problem as (presumably) the Republican president will be able to get through anything that appeals to their base. Particularly undoing the climate change promises.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Firenze said

quote:

---

I see a Zeitgeist. A spirit of fear, retreat and isolationism

---

I think the 'Kingdom of God' response to that is embodying a spirit of grace, openness and connection.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
One of the aspects of Trump's acceptance speech (before he started to ramble) which surprised me was his "New Deal"-sounding promises on rebuilding infrastructure as a means of putting people back to work. Plus some open-trade-sounding words about global trading.

Warm words, but how are they to be paid for? Made me wonder what his first budget will look like.

Also, my gut feel is that he's going to tell the NATO states that they are going to have to put their own hands deeper in their pockets to pay for collective defence.

Looks like the UK stock market is treading water for the time being. I thought the uncertainty looking forward might give the FTSE a kicking - but not yet. European Markets look as though they've moved down about 1% so far. Early days.

---

FWIW I think the markets are uncertain, and doing the best they can with the statements he's made (none of which I think should be taken as gospel but what else can they do?)

I agree NATO is uncertain, but there again we've (in the UK) swapped a president who said a post-Brexit UK would be at the back of the queue with one who's said it's going to be at the front. You'd expect in the short term the UK to suffer less than some other markets.

However, given we're in the unusual circumstances of hoping that an elected politician isn't going to keep many of his promises, I'd say it's uncertain waters for everyone.
 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
What do I need to do to live through this? That's my question about the aftermath.

For much of the world outside of the US, I suspect there will be a return to using the coping strategies we all employed to survive mentally during the Cold War.

For myself, if I contemplated what was openly discussed as a possibility, I would not be able to function. My wife is half Estonian. The threat to that region is well laid out and real. Under Trump, Russia can and probably will find a way to walk back into the Baltics. The ramifications of that, to my thinking, are...staggering.

If I allowed contemplation and awareness of that threat to become the focus of my thoughts, along with the other situations that have been discussed, daily living would be just too difficult.

Much like the Cold War threat would make you freeze if you let it.


Coping means compartmentalizing the personal world from the big picture & a return to focusing on the personally doable and attainable when it comes to social justice issues. It also means focusing on taking situations in hand and asking, "So, what are we going to do?" Not "What are we going to think?"

I purged about 1/3 of my twitter feed this morning in an effort to focus on things I enjoy and on places where I can make a difference. I am taking mental steps to move away from big picture discussions of grand schemes. I will also be rethinking where to attempt to make a difference.

That is how I and many others coped before under the threat of imminent nuclear destruction. We focused on what we could do personally, even if within a collective of ourselves.

I don't look upon this as a good thing, just a necessary thing.

So today I go back to work. And I

And I suspect that is how much of the world will be gauging the aftermath - what do I need to do to live through this.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Well, we did it! We snatched the title of World's Stupidest Polity from Britain again! You thought you had us, with Brexit, but we topped you!

And now:
Obamacare is history. If you have no insurance, plan not to get sick. If you do, prayer is your only resort.
The Supreme Court is done, for our generation. It is now a partisan perk.
Gerrymandering and voter intimidation are now the rule.
Sorry refugees, you might want to go elsewhere and save on the energy of being deported again.
Latino and Muslim neighbors, I'm sorry for you.
Women, and persons of ethnicity, let's hunker down and hope that no amendments to the Constitution get rammed through.

But there is one indubitable up side. Alex Baldwin now has a steady gig for the next four years. I am so looking forward to this!

[ 09. November 2016, 11:02: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 

---

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
So what does happen with the Supreme Court? The new president gets to appoint the casting vote justice with a nod through the Senate?
 

---

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
For those of us who wanted a female leader of the free world, we've got one. Her name is Angela Merkel.

Anyway, it behooves one to be gracious at such moments and to congratulate the winner of this election. So well done Mr Putin.
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Il faut cultiver notre jardin*

A retreat into quietism is probably necessary in the short term, just to recuperate and recharge.

But there has to be a return to activism at some point, because sooner or later the outworkings of the change will have to be opposed (how long do we think before internment camps for Muslims?) or we have to deal with the frustrations of those who find their orange messiah has not delivered what they hoped.


*We must cultivate our garden.
 

---

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
she's the next domino to fall.

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.
 

---

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
I think the Germans learned the hard way that right-wing nationalism causes more problems than it solves, in the long run.

Incidentally, you appear to have left Blacks and Hispanics out of your analysis of the working class.
 

---

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Exit Poll

Look at the breakdown of the voters by income. Look at which proportion of which income groups voted for Clinton. She *won* among the two lowest categories. So can we all stop pretending this was a working class revolt and start using more salient terms for Trump's appeal like 'racism' and 'misogyny'.
 

---

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So what does happen with the Supreme Court? The new president gets to appoint the casting vote justice with a nod through the Senate?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humble Servant:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.

---

What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humble Servant:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.

---

What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
As you know I'm talking the majority working class. White. Men and their dependent women. For now.

As for Germany: Alternative für Deutschland.

Liberals have to INCLUDE such.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
The more likely scenario is Le Pen winning in France.

---

Tell me about it
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
An excellent article on what Trump's win says about misogyny.

"Trump’s win has trained a spotlight on the extent of the misogyny that runs through America. Importantly, however, it also reveals just how far women’s rights have come; how much has been achieved; how threatened the denizens of a fading America feel. Trump’s victory is the last gasp of a desperate white patriarchy. Clinton may have lost the election but that doesn’t mean women lost on Wednesday morning. Our fight isn’t over.'

I couldn't agree more with Arwa Mahdawi.
 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
An excellent article on what Trump's win says about misogyny.

"Trump’s win has trained a spotlight on the extent of the misogyny that runs through America. Importantly, however, it also reveals just how far women’s rights have come; how much has been achieved; how threatened the denizens of a fading America feel. Trump’s victory is the last gasp of a desperate white patriarchy. Clinton may have lost the election but that doesn’t mean women lost on Wednesday morning. Our fight isn’t over.'

I couldn't agree more with Arwa Mahdawi.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And that's the true answer. At last, there is actually something that is indeed Obama's fault. This is all a reaction to his excellent presidency.

Oh, and I forgot to add. Those brave women who stepped up and testified about pussy grabbing? Canada would be wise. The cases pending against the TFO? Smoke. We will never ever see his tax returns, you bet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
Exit Poll

Look at the breakdown of the voters by income. Look at which proportion of which income groups voted for Clinton. She *won* among the two lowest categories. So can we all stop pretending this was a working class revolt and start using more salient terms for Trump's appeal like 'racism' and 'misogyny'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
For those supporters of his, the cycle with Donald Trump will be wild enthusiasm, confusion, disillusionment. Let's see how long it takes for those with supremacy attitudes to get disappointed by what they will see as "lack of progress". And let us not give up. I'm not giving up on the values I hold most dear.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.

---

Reagan-Reagan-Bush was 12 years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Obama-Obama-Clinton would have been the same from the lower white working class perspective.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
For those supporters of his, the cycle with Donald Trump will be wild enthusiasm, confusion, disillusionment. Let's see how long it takes for those with supremacy attitudes to get disappointed by what they will see as "lack of progress". And let us not give up. I'm not giving up on the values I hold most dear.

---

Exactly. We've survived Republican presidents before: Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2 (barely). We'll survive this one too. We just have to be careful.

---

The problem is that all three of them, even Bush jr., were competent. And look at the world after them. Trump can do more damage in four than they did in twelve.
A man who cannot handle twitter will now set policy for the most powerful and influential country in the world.
I have said I do not respect the electorate, but I am deeply saddened to be correct. Turkey, USSR 2.0 Brett and this idiot. The world is so much less safe right now and that is not rhetoric.
 

---

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
The readings for Proper 28, this Sunday.

I don't think I have ever been this anxious for Sunday to come.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Oh dear.

It will be interesting to see just how many of DT's campaign pledges are implemented and where they take the USA. Maybe we should have a thread on this?

In the meantime, here are some of mine.

WALL won't be built for the simple reason that its unfeasible and no one will work on a project with no guarantee of payment. Caveat this assumes of course that the good people of Mexico don't choose to build one themselves to keep out a flood of people wanting to escape a Trump-led USA.

TAX cuts for the wealthy will happen thus giving everyone a chance to see (again) that so-called trickle-down economics don't work. It would be even better if they worked out why (rich already have money so save, whereas poor would spend) but I'm not holding my breath.

NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.

UN much more combative approach and likely to pull out of deals to do with climate change, etc.

As someone (mis)quoted on the TV coverage last night Fasten your seatbelts; its going to be a bumpy ride. Of course, the wonderful Bette Davis was only speaking of one night, not four years
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
@ lilBuddha

It will test the strength of the separation of powers. Plus I reckon he may turn out to be a dilettante. It's not clear how dangerous he will turn out to be in practice. Watchful is a good attitude at this stage.
 

---

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:

---

NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Obama-Obama-Clinton would have been the same from the lower white working class perspective.

---

Don't agree. That is too monolithic. It might have been the same for some of them, and not for others. To find out, you need some very fine-grained empirical research.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Does that mean that the USA is now in effect a one-party state?

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humble Servant:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.

---

What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?

---

In this election, at least, they didn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
As you know I'm talking the majority working class. White. Men and their dependent women. For now.

As for Germany: Alternative für Deutschland.

Liberals have to INCLUDE such.

---

Not if the price is pandering to people's racism, we don't.

The AfD won't beat Merkel. The more likely scenario is Le Pen winning in France. If that happens you can kiss the Western Alliance goodbye.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

The only thing to do is keep our eyes on God and keep doing the next thing, whatever it is.

---

quote:

---

Given his personality and refusal to accept guidance, he's very likely to crash and burn sooner rather than later. I'm not looking forward to the embarrassing spectacle, particularly as resolving it (via impeachment) will take a million times longer than it should, given that the people who will need to do it are the same people who couldn't bring themselves to deal with him successfully when he was an unwanted nominee.

---

quote:

---

But I'll be interested to see how the time goes between now and inauguration day. I really don't think he has ever sat down and soberly thought about how he'll do the job. We may see an attempt to run out on it, particularly when it becomes clear that in terms of ego stroking approval ratings, there's only one direction to go from here, and that's down. As it is for all newly elected presidents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
The more I look at the demographics, the more they bother me. Why aren't the lowest income bands not just half Democrat but 80%? Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope? That is a catastrophic failure to communicate by the Clinton Democrats. Where were the trade unions?

Why is the only 'outsider' a billionaire? Not a savvy, inclusive, non-demagogic, true working class hero who can win the hearts and minds of the reactionary working class despite themselves? Or the next FDR? Truman?

A beautiful black liberal American woman (hopefully lesbian!) on BBC 24 just acknowledged that the people she wasn't hearing have spoken and that we must all align together. Superb.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
The more I look at the demographics, the more they bother me. Why aren't the lowest income bands not just half Democrat but 80%? Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope? That is a catastrophic failure to communicate by the Clinton Democrats. Where were the trade unions?

Why is the only 'outsider' a billionaire? Not a savvy, inclusive, non-demagogic, true working class hero who can win the hearts and minds of the reactionary working class despite themselves? Or the next FDR? Truman?

A beautiful black liberal American woman (hopefully lesbian!) on BBC 24 just acknowledged that the people she wasn't hearing have spoken and that we must all align together. Superb.

---

American unions were eviscerated by the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947 and then by the failure of Operation Dixie and the CIO. It's very hard to start a union organizing drive in the US, for various reasons.

But on Trump, I reserve judgement. I believe he'll revert to type. He's a liar and a cheat, and he will cut and run rather than face the costs of his own actions. I truly believe he was lying about most of what he said in the campaign, it was hyperbole and what people wanted to hear.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
The more I look at the demographics, the more they bother me. Why aren't the lowest income bands not just half Democrat but 80%? Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope? That is a catastrophic failure to communicate by the Clinton Democrats. Where were the trade unions?

Why is the only 'outsider' a billionaire? Not a savvy, inclusive, non-demagogic, true working class hero who can win the hearts and minds of the reactionary working class despite themselves? Or the next FDR? Truman?

A beautiful black liberal American woman (hopefully lesbian!) on BBC 24 just acknowledged that the people she wasn't hearing have spoken and that we must all align together. Superb.

---

American unions were eviscerated by the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947 and then by the failure of Operation Dixie and the CIO. It's very hard to start a union organizing drive in the US, for various reasons.

But on Trump, I reserve judgement. I believe he'll revert to type. He's a liar and a cheat, and he will cut and run rather than face the costs of his own actions. I truly believe he was lying about most of what he said in the campaign, it was hyperbole and what people wanted to hear.

---

The thing is, it's hard to know exactly WHAT Trump was saying in the campaign(primary and general), because on numerous points he contradicted himself.

For instance, when originally asked about the status of Jerusalem, he replied that he couldn't comment on that because, if elected, he might have to mediate negotiations on the dispute. A few weeks later, he told a pro-Israel gathering that he favoured moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

My own guess is that his initial reply was the sincere one, since it wasn't the sort of thing you say in mainstream American politics if you've had any coaching. I also think this probably set a pattern for his positions on other contentious issues, whether he was moving from left to right(as in Jerusalem), or vice-versa(eg. if he eventually backs down on building his wall).

And a haunty salute to Sober Preacher's Kid if he can spot the Canadian historical-political echo in Trump's embassy posturing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.

---

How so? Did Mrs Clinton's womanhood cause her, for example, to get a private e-mail server?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
So with commentators linking this to movements like Brexit, rise in nationalism etc - to what extent is this the logical outcome of years of hearing about (and facing) terrorism?

The rallying call around nationalism, fear of minorities, immigrants etc.... It just feels like maybe this is the black and white view of the world the factions wanted to see.

Which isn't easy. We want security. Is there a move to deciding the way to do that is to close the world off more?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Trump said so many contradictory things, and is often so unclear (the phrase 'word salad' is relevant here) that it is obvious that what he says is not part of his appeal. Rather, his very incoherence allows people to project what they want onto the restless but amorphous surface. So, you hate black people, he's your guy. You think women are uppity, you feel he thinks the same.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Made me wonder what his first budget will look like.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh dear.

NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
In good news, nuclear war with Russia is obviated when we become their client state.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Why didn't the poor and working class KNOW that the Democrats under Clinton are their only hope?

---

Because it's not true, at least not for all of them. They've seen what's happened over the last eight years, and they don't want any more of the same.

---

quote:

---

Trump won't help them, of course. But he is something different and he said the right things about improving their lives, so they gave him a chance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh dear.

NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.

---

In at least Canada's case, the situation is far more complicated. We have three main links with the US -- the North America Free Trade AGreement (Canada, US and Mexico), which Trump has effecivbely promised to rip up; the North American Defence agreeemnt, which Trump is likely to decide to rip up unless Canada doubles or triples its financial contribution to US defence (we don't actually get anything out of this one -- any missiles incoming over the poles would be shot down over Canada to spare the US); and NATO.

In the context of likely ripping up two major US-Canada agreements, I hardly think Trump is going to attempt to deal with Canada on defence.

John

---

I am reliably informed that Mr Trump knows nothing about the Norad arrangement-- and he is certainly not aware that US forces are under infidel (sorry, Canadian) command for half of each year.

As far as trade goes, I recall some years ago in a previous incarnation seeing a survey that identified 14% of US folk correctly identifying their country's greatest trading partner (Canada, at that time). I suspect that Mr Trump is among the 86%. Given his habit of not receiving briefings....
 

---

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
Fortunately for President-elect Fart, there are many resources to help him transition into his new job. He's probably watching old Schoolhouse Rock clips right now. And I'm really, really looking forward to when he tries to impose a tariff on Chinese imports or get out of NAFTA and Walmart sues the USA government for billions of dollars of lost profits.
 

---

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:
And I'm really, really looking forward to when he tries to impose a tariff on Chinese imports or get out of NAFTA and Walmart sues the USA government for billions of dollars of lost profits.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:
I'm guessing, but the NAFTA specifically gives companies the right to sue governments for actions that compromise their profit-making capability.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:
I'm guessing, but the NAFTA specifically gives companies the right to sue governments for actions that compromise their profit-making capability.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.

---

Reagan-Reagan-Bush was 12 years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
...keep any congressional opposition in line by pointing out his electoral success and its implications for their re-election if they are seen to oppose him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
In good news, nuclear war with Russia is obviated when we become their client state.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
...keep any congressional opposition in line by pointing out his electoral success and its implications for their re-election if they are seen to oppose him.

---

Is that likely to be an effective threat when they know as well as he does that he lost the popular vote? Surely, the first time he mentions his "electoral success" they will swiftly retort, "Um, Don - you came second."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
An interesting comment I heard this evening was America is made up of two groups: those who live on the coast, and the fly-over people. For too long the people in the middle, the flyover people, have felt their concerns were not being heard. Now, they have spoken. And America has heard their voice.

---

quote:

---

If you haven't seen the reports of this, say so, and I'll post links.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I'd have more sympathy for them if they'd stop blaming immigrants, Muslims, gays, et alia for the shape the country is in. That they've figured out that the Republican establishment doesn't give a shit about them is awesome. That they've decided the answer is to elect a guy who has made racist whites feel more free to attack and assault people on the street - not so much. (If you haven't seen the reports of this, say so, and I'll post links.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is a nasty smelling odour in the air from certain quarters that is trying to say that no, this isn't that bad and that those who are scared need to just calm down* because he isn't or might not be a racist xenophobic, homophobic arse.

As others have said, these kinds of statements seem only to be coming from the white privileged set who aren't likely to be much affected by a Trump administration.

*given that this is coming from Mad Melanie Philips, it is quite a statement

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

---

Nice
 

---

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :
 
I woke up yesterday to the first snow of the year (in North Yorkshire) and a fairyland vista through the trees. The night before I had watched the Ripon Hornblower warning all who had ears to hear that the Danes (or was it the Vikings?) were coming.

Then I switched on the TV.

My first (rational) thoughts were, with Britain out of Europe and America out of its mind, perhaps it's appropriate that the first American title to win the Booker Prize is "Sellout".

But wait! Not all Americans are crazy, and the USA is still a democratic country. Isn't it? So may it just be that Americans have chosen the leader they deserve? Time will tell. We've made some mad choices, apparently, this side of the pond. But isn't this absolutely the best argument for the Australian system (IIRC) of compulsory voting? Disasters by default might not...oh, wait another minute! Some of those Australian winners, now...
 

---

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
I haven't been so ashamed to be English until it happened here up to and after Brexit. Including murder.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

---

Nice

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
And I keep the TV off and have vowed never to watch the news again.

---

Ditto. If news is important enough to reach me, it can do so by certified mail, return receipt requested.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Well, there's this. I had a job interview this morning for a staff writer position, and came away with this test assignment: "Write a piece about post-election stress."


 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Twilight, I hold no brief for Melania, but she didn't ask to be in the White House,* and she will hold no elected position. Why not have mercy on her and bury her in decent obscurity?

* Do you really think the Donald asked for her input?
 

---

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why not have mercy on her and bury her in decent obscurity?

---

OK, so long as she doesn't have Ikea in to redo the Lincoln Bedroom.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Meanwhile, here's the considered opinion of another well-known world leader:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YEhNHNydIs&nohtml5=False

I'll get me jackboots...

IJ
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Og--

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Dumping 20K people off of the insurance rolls would be bad, to say the least.

---

quote:

---

The Current 2016 enrollment numbers: The current enrollment numbers (as of February 2016) are roughly: 12.7 million in the marketplace, and very roughly 20 million total between the ACA between the Marketplace, Medicaid expansion, young adults staying on their parents plan, and other coverage provisions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Twilight, I hold no brief for Melania, but she didn't ask to be in the White House,* and she will hold no elected position. Why not have mercy on her and bury her in decent obscurity?

* Do you really think the Donald asked for her input?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
I see turnout was below 50%. Of those that did vote, fractionally more favoured Clinton. Of the quarter of eligible voters who supported Fart, say a proportion were merely deluded - the he's-only-saying-that/I-always-vote-Republican/my-neighbour's-cousin-says-he's-a-nice-man brigade.

So on the plus side you might only have 10 or 20% of Americans who are spittle-flecked bigoted loonies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Twilight, I hold no brief for Melania, but she didn't ask to be in the White House,* and she will hold no elected position. Why not have mercy on her and bury her in decent obscurity?

* Do you really think the Donald asked for her input?

---

Because Bill Clinton's sexual past and qualifications as First Gentleman have been hashed over and brought up incessantly during this election. She may not have "asked," to be in the White House, however you're picturing that, but she certainly has been front and center during the campaign, speaking about what a good man her husband is and marching up on the stage at every opportunity. I doubt very much that she's wanting to sink into obscurity now.

I'm hearing, from all the people who maintain a hands-off poor Melania position, a bit of the protective, patronizing attitude that says she's just a poor little woman who can't think for herself and as a good wife must follow her husband's path without opinions of her own. As such she's not responsible for her actions, or the positions she endorses, in the same way the man is.

That's the residual 1950's attitude about women that's caused so many Americans to find it impossible to really picture a woman as president.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Garrison Keillor weighs in, via the Washington Post:

"Trump voters will not like what happens next."

I particularly like the paragraph beginning "We liberal elitists...". Hmmm...I wonder if heirloom tomatoes can be grown indoors?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
I haven't been so ashamed to be English until it happened here up to and after Brexit. Including murder.

---

Was the murder that of the woman politician who was shot in the street? (Remembering a little of the news.)


 

---

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

---

Nice

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

---

As should all women.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

---

As should all women.

---

Thanks. And thanks to all the other men of the Ship who've said supportive things. First, Enoch posted a link to an awesome article by a *man* who really gets it and said it. Then I started noticing several men of the Ship also getting it and saying it.

IME, it's rare for men to do that.


 

---

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
And she's hardly the first woman to get involved with a powerful, rich man.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Ok, you know that meme that is going around that shows Trump leaning over Melania at the polls? Really look at the body language. That girl is in trouble.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

---

Nice

---

Well, her current title is Third Trophy Wife. Is that any better?

Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:

Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Ok, you know that meme that is going around that shows Trump leaning over Melania at the polls? Really look at the body language. That girl is in trouble.

---

OTOH, now that The Donald is President-Elect, he won't be able to trade her in for a Fourth Trophy Wife, at least not while they're in the White House.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
The First Bimbo

---

Nice

---

Well, her current title is Third Trophy Wife. Is that any better?

Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
And she's hardly the first woman to get involved with a powerful, rich man.

---

Didn't someone named Marilyn Monroe precede her?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
I see turnout was below 50%. Of those that did vote, fractionally more favoured Clinton.

---

I don't like Trump, I'm sorry he won, and I look forward to his term in office with trepidation.

However, I am not sure that psephological analysis is an adequate therapeutic consolation.

After all, Salavdor Allende, who is generally regarded as one of democracy's martyrs, won Chile's 1970 presidential election with the support of only about 20% (1,070,334 of 5,200,790) of those eligible to vote.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re the hate crimes, etc.:

I feel like I'm in that "Star Trek: TOS" episode where a town follows "the will of L'Andru". (A malfunctioning computer, but they don't know that.)

Anyway, they are very good and very repressed, except for a celebration where they are *mandated* to let out everything they repress the rest of the year--ALL of it. Acting out all those ugly, selfish, evil, uncontrolled things that run around inside us. Murder, rape, and who knows what else. At the end of the "celebration", the survivors go back to their repressed lives, and don't talk about what happened.


I used to think that if the US and allies ever completely pull out of Afghanistan, it would be a very good idea to teach all girls and women self-defense, and somehow arm the women. Against acid attacks, and all that Taliban crap.

The self-defense training might be a really good thing here. I hope we don't need weapons.

I periodically take basic self-defense classes, to make sure I've got the basics. It's been a long time since my last. I should seek out a new one.




[ 11. November 2016, 06:02: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

---

As should all women.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
This double standard has to stop. We are either powerful, intelligent agents of our own lives, or we are helpless little ladies who need patronizing protection from the big bad men. We will never have a woman president if we keep pushing the latter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm guessing that this is the thread that will continue?

Reading various bits of economic analysis - Clinton lost in the rust belt, because of free trade, and so forth. Trump wants to abolish free trade agreements, and put tariffs up against Chinese goods?

Wow, is this real? Then what?

Also, he is promising big spending on infrastructure - very Keynesian! Should I laugh or cry?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
To quetz,

Yes, dear. Taking off your clothes for money, posing nude lying alongside another woman, living with men who pay all your expenses. That's trading your body for money. That's pornography and prostitution. Just because she was born good looking enough to be a "mistress," rather than a street walker doesn't change anything, other than the street walker being deserving of pity while she could easily have had many other jobs. It's not a matter of smelling salts, it's a matter of doing work that does nothing to contribute to the world, work that doesn't use her mind but turns herself into an object. Is this what you think young women should aspire to? Not doctor or engineer or teacher, but pornography?

You call criticism of her misogyny. You're just revealing your own prejudice, evidently you think all women are right no matter what they do. It's okay to plagiarize another woman's speech. It's okay to express agreement with her husband's bigoted views of Muslims. It's all okay coming from her because she's a woman and to criticize her is misogyny. She has backed her husband every step of the way, particularly about illegal immigrants, always explaining that she is a legal immigrant.

This notion that she is not responsible for her views, but is just repeating what her husband says goes all the way back to the words of the men who thought women shouldn't have the vote because they would all just vote the way their husbands voted. The really ugly attitude coming from this thread is the one that says this 44 year-old woman is just an appendage of her husband with no mind or power of her own. The wedding ring on her finger is worth one and a half million. If she doesn't agree with the bigoted jerk she married she could walk any time she felt like it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
[QB] To quetz,


This notion that she is not responsible for her views, but is just repeating what her husband says goes all the way back to the words of the men who thought women shouldn't have the vote because they would all just vote the way their husbands voted. The really ugly attitude coming from this thread is the one that says this 44 year-old woman is just an appendage of her husband with no mind or power of her own. The wedding ring on her finger is worth one and a half million. If she doesn't agree with the bigoted jerk she married she could walk any time she felt like it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

---

Why are people here so quick to sit in judgement on Melania Trump? Maybe she just hasn't yet collected her alabaster jar

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Reminds me of a time when I used to go to a little Catholic church round the corner, anyway, a bunch of prostitutes started attending Mass. A group of women from the congregation complained to the priest, and asked him if he could divert them somewhere else. Well, the irony, the irony.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Reminds me of a time when I used to go to a little Catholic church round the corner, anyway, a bunch of prostitutes started attending Mass. A group of women from the congregation complained to the priest, and asked him if he could divert them somewhere else. Well, the irony, the irony.

---

Has anyone here suggested Melania Trump should not go to church? How false your argument is getting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

---

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

---

That's just what you said, no one else did.

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children. I would like to see people who studied hard and got degrees for useful occupations rather than simply using their looks to make money. It's true that our society worships models and avidly follows the fashion industry. I don't think that's a good thing that we need to encourage. It values our outward appearance and wealth above anything else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
Did you want Hilary Clinton in the White House with that paragon of moral virtue, and role model for children everywhere, Bill?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The true thing is that probably nothing Mrs. Trump says or does is by her own will or choice. Certainly every speech she gives or action she takes is controlled tightly by her husband. (There was a picture of them, voting on Tuesday, that shows you what I mean.) She probably had little choice but to marry him (nude modeling is not a career that you can carry into your fifties) and being a model is what you do when you are lovely but haven't any acting talent. She did what she could to stay alive and to get out of Slovenia. We will probably never learn her true feelings or nature; they are well-hidden now for her own safety and in future she is probably bound by prenups that will gag any true confessions. If I were her I would write novels, and publish them under a closely-held pen name.

In the meantime over at the POST columnist Richard Cohen summarizes what Trump will have to do, to unite the country. My fellow genre writers agree that this could be a candidate for one of our short-fiction awards; it is fantasy and will never happen.

And John Pavlovitz calls upon pastors everywhere to speak as Christ to their Trumpery congregations. This is excellent and is a free click. I am informed that about 80 percent of evangelical Christians voted for the pussy grabber. I may have to join the Unitarians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
And I would like to focus on the person who actually runs for office. Why the hell should family members be relevant? Are there other jobs where you'd like to assess not just the skills and competence of the person occupying the position, but pass judgement on all their relatives?

That's regardless of the gender of the person occupying a job, but I'd particularly quite like to get rid of the idea that a woman is an appendage of her husband and must be taken into account when her husband is in a public position.

But I also don't give a damn if Hillary decided to divorce Bill and go for a Chippendale. "Spouse to the President" is not a job you will find in the constitution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

---

That's just what you said, no one else did.

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children. I would like to see people who studied hard and got degrees for useful occupations rather than simply using their looks to make money. It's true that our society worships models and avidly follows the fashion industry. I don't think that's a good thing that we need to encourage. It values our outward appearance and wealth above anything else.

---

And I would like to focus on the person who actually runs for office. Why the hell should family members be relevant? Are there other jobs where you'd like to assess not just the skills and competence of the person occupying the position, but pass judgement on all their relatives?

That's regardless of the gender of the person occupying a job, but I'd particularly quite like to get rid of the idea that a woman is an appendage of her husband and must be taken into account when her husband is in a public position.

But I also don't give a damn if Hillary decided to divorce Bill and go for a Chippendale. "Spouse to the President" is not a job you will find in the constitution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children...

---

Did you want Hilary Clinton in the White House with that paragon of moral virtue, and role model for children everywhere, Bill?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like "pastor's wife."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like "pastor's wife."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

---

Here is a Christian who is saying decidedly the opposite. Please avoid the big brush, would you?

---

... So is that clear yet, quetz?

Btw, LC, spot on.
 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Yes, ma'am, clear as fucking mud.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ok, what do you think of LC's actual post? Because I though it was brilliant and I agree with every word.
 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.
 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I see Trump alternately attacked the protesters, and then praised them today for being passionate. Wow, this guy goes beyond chameleon.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

---

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.

---

Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
)

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.
 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Kelly - Hester Prynne? (The Scarlet Letter).
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

---

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.

---

Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
)

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

---

I must say this is a great temptation.

I have an ethical problem, though, with claiming another religion. Will it do if I say nothing verbally but just show up in a hijab?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

---

I must say this is a great temptation.

I have an ethical problem, though, with claiming another religion. Will it do if I say nothing verbally but just show up in a hijab?

---

I am sure you could also show up with some useful and apposite sign. Quoting Jesus, perhaps. A guy notorious for loving strangers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Tangent. Lamb Chopped, why don't people just refuse to accept the role of 'pastor's wife'? It's what I did. I have never had a calling to ministry and have a career. I made it quite clear to churches before Macarius was appointed that I didn't accept the 'two for one' expectation.

End of tangent.
M.

---

Many of us do. But it takes a damn strong-minded woman to do so. Which leads us nicely back to the question of whether Melania could handle doing that.

Some of us have no problems with sliding into the expectations, spotless house and perfect childen all included.

Some of us firmly inform the congregation that we are going to another church and they should not expect to ever see our faces.

Some of us try to pick and choose based on our own particular gifts and interests.

Some of us are fortunate enough to be missionaries in a field where there have been no pastors' wives, and we get to write our own stereotype.
The one I'm writing includes getting a PhD, tutoring teenagers, and doing an ungodly amount of bureaucratic paperwork for people with no English . God help the woman who comes after me.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
There are in fact Muslim-identifying "followers of Isa." They are Christian by any reasonable standard, but cling to the old name.
 

---

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 

quote:

---

This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

---

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

---

Oh bullshit. We had prisoners and --well, not quite prostitutes, because she didn't take money, but in every other way-- as members of our church, and nobody batted an eye. That is, until a handful of people left the faith and promptly developed goody-two-shoe-ism.

Our host congregation, too, includes the kind of people most would pillory.

I have never personally met a Christian congregation that made assholes of themselves this way. No doubt they must exist--you seem to have met them--but I see them only in news headlines, which frankly gives me some doubt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
There are in fact Muslim-identifying "followers of Isa." They are Christian by any reasonable standard, but cling to the old name.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Clever dodge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gorpo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

---

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

---

And probably he/she thinks the same about Hilary Clinton, for being married to an abuser and cheater, but still keeping the marriage to increase her popularity?

Or is the indignation selective?

---

quote:

---

To me, selling your body, for sex or photographs equals slut.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Twilight wrote:

quote:

---

To me, selling your body, for sex or photographs equals slut.

---

Twilight, I know that you claim to be even-handed in your criticism of both genders for selling their physical attributes(eg. Chippendales dancers as well as Playboy centrefolds), and I can give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

But if that is true, I would politely advise you against using the word "slut" to describe people in those occupations. In my experience, that word is closely linked to condemnation of supposedly immoral WOMEN.

So using that word is pretty much asking to be misunderstood.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
That photo of Trump leaning over his wife in the voting booth does not represent their marriage.

---

quote:

---

The obvious thing is that he is helping her figure out the format and wording...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Here's different aftermath: the effect on the evangelical movement. They are accused of hypocrisy; it's hard to see how for some church leaders it's not true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

The bright side I think is this crystallization of left wing evangelicalism. For most of my life I've felt very much alone in this. I can remember of course election cycles when I was celebrating a Dem win and cycles when I was mourning a tragic loss, but always I felt alone. A few lone leaders of the lefty movement but always marginazlied. That has shifted over the last few years, but I hadn't realized quite how much until Wed. of this week. I saw my facebook feed full with messages-- beautiful, heartbreaking messages from members of my own evangelical church-- mourning the loss and vowing to stand with our African American, Hispanic, GLBTQ, and Muslim neighbors. Forming action plans. For the first time, I feel a part of a community, and not just on the Ship (altho that's pretty awesome too. But it's always nice to have someone to go out for a beer with who's feeling what you're feeling-- as I did yesterday).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

The bright side I think is this crystallization of left wing evangelicalism. For most of my life I've felt very much alone in this. I can remember of course election cycles when I was celebrating a Dem win and cycles when I was mourning a tragic loss, but always I felt alone. A few lone leaders of the lefty movement but always marginazlied. That has shifted over the last few years, but I hadn't realized quite how much until Wed. of this week. I saw my facebook feed full with messages-- beautiful, heartbreaking messages from members of my own evangelical church-- mourning the loss and vowing to stand with our African American, Hispanic, GLBTQ, and Muslim neighbors. Forming action plans. For the first time, I feel a part of a community, and not just on the Ship (altho that's pretty awesome too. But it's always nice to have someone to go out for a beer with who's feeling what you're feeling-- as I did yesterday).

---

From the other side of the pond ...

cliffdweller, I think it's been much harder for you than for me, and for others of my friends. There isn't this direct political connection in the UK, though if it begins to harden over here, I'll ditch the evangelical identification on the grounds that the word has collected too much baggage. (I think that is what Tony Campolo has felt compelled to do).

It's a great shame, but maybe some kind of realignment is necessary now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

---

But if one simply accepts this, it seems to me it's handing Trump and his ilk more ammunition for their tactic of division, and retreating still further into an echo chamber.

We can disagree about lots of things, but it seems so important to me to keep conversations going across seemingly unbridgeable divides. I think this is the real, and really countrer-cultural, challenge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Kelly - Hester Prynne? (The Scarlet Letter).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
That photo of Trump leaning over his wife in the voting booth does not represent their marriage.

---

How do you know?

quote:

---

The obvious thing is that he is helping her figure out the format and wording...

---

Why is it "the obvious thing"? It strikes me that "the obvious thing" is that the photographer happened to catch the one fraction of a second when he was looking that way; the next most obvious thing is that he's having a sneaky peek at her vote. "Helping her figure out" anything is not only the least "obvious thing", it's so far from "the obvious thing" that it's invisibly, vaguely, obscurely inconspicuously doubtful.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

---

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.

---

Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
)

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

---

WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.) [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:
WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

John

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod does not ordain women, something a lot more sexist than condemning Melania Trump for selling herself. It is also homophobic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Just a question from a Canadian:

What is different about voter registration in the United States than in Canada? Here in Canada, I registered as a voter on voting day at my first election by bringing 2 pieces of ID. Even if I didn't have any ID, as long as I had someone with 2 pieces of ID to vouch for me, I could be registered. It was pretty simple and straight forward.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:
What about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

John

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gorpo:
And probably he/she thinks the same about Hilary Clinton, for being married to an abuser and cheater, but still keeping the marriage to increase her popularity?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
This is not an entirely frivolous question, but supposing Mr. Catgrabber is prevented from being sworn in as President by (say) illness, imprisonment, natural death, assassination, or a final descent into complete insanity, who would fill the Orange-shaped hole?

Would you all have to go through the whole ghastly process again?

Would Mrs. Clinton take over, as being second in line with the votes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:


And the same goes for Melania Trump. Asking why she married him in the first place is one thing, but asking why she remains married to him is quite another thing. (And yes, this is Trump's third marriage. It's Melania's only marriage, and perhaps she takes her vows a little more seriously than her husband did.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would speculate however, that the fact that Melania's affair with Trump is what broke up marriage #2

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

---

WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

---

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod does not ordain women, something a lot more sexist than condemning Melania Trump for selling herself. It is also homophobic. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I would think if anyone has a problem with misogynistic language or slut- shaming, they would be encouraged that people from traditionally conservative churches would call it out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I would think if anyone has a problem with misogynistic language or slut- shaming, they would be encouraged that people from traditionally conservative churches would call it out.

---

It might be encouraging in some instances, but I find the comparison of the role of First Lady to the role of a pastor's wife in a conservative church weirdly apt, in that these are both highly gendered roles, and also evidence of the continued sexism in both church and state. They both do a hell of a lot of unpaid labor to which they might or might not be suited and they both occupy their positions because of their husbands' positions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

---

But if one simply accepts this, it seems to me it's handing Trump and his ilk more ammunition for their tactic of division, and retreating still further into an echo chamber.

We can disagree about lots of things, but it seems so important to me to keep conversations going across seemingly unbridgeable divides. I think this is the real, and really countrer-cultural, challenge.

---

Well, that's a good point, and well worth considering. Perhaps later, when the wound is less raw.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Kelly: I think I see your point, but Melania Trump is not a girl, nor was she a young woman when she married Donald. It's a complicated thing, trying to figure out to what extent any particular woman is a victim of or a perpetrator of the systems of sexism, because it's frequently both.

Hillary Rodham took her husband's name to help his political career - in doing so she was both victim and perpetrator. Michelle Obama gave up her job to be First Lady. I personally think the whole First Lady thing is bullshit and that the President's spouse should be allowed to keep their regular job if they have one. So I see her as a victim of sexism, but I also think every woman who knuckles under the pressure to be the ultimate corporate wife while she is First Lady is perpetuating a very public sexist role.( snip)

I also think slut-shaming isn't exactly what Twilight was doing. Slut-shaming is criticizing a woman for having too much sex with too many different people, not criticizing her for selling herself. I think it's fine for women to have lots of sex with lots of different people, but both Twilight and Lamb Chopped would disagree.

---

First of agll, yeah I know Melania is an adult, but I was assuming LC doesn't restrict her repulsion of calling women sluts to Melania, and I repeat, LCMS youngsters need to hear that that is not respectable.

Second-- precise definition of slut shaming aside, how is calling someone First Slut not misogynistic language ?
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
RuthW

A tangent. As a West Wing episode pointed out a dozen years ago, the real security nightmare is the abduction by terrorists of a member of the President's family. There are real additional security risks associated with a President's partner continuing a career if that career involves substantial daily and routine contact with the public.

This isn't an argument against your criticism of the ceremonial supportive role. Some Presidential partners can carry that off with ease and do a lot of good, others not so. But the choice to continue a career may be a lot more difficult than we think.
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
TFO 'appears to soften stance on range of pledges'.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
A Politician gets into power and isn't going to do the things they said they would in the Election campaign. Well knock me down with a feather
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Sorry, rolyn, this has caused a lot of fear, profound grief and even panic among some living in the USA, well-reasoned or not as these emotions may be. Some vulnerable (or perceiving themselves as vulnerable) people have to my knowledge committed suicide since the election.

Whether the fear is based on real events or on a feared, imagined potential outcome does not matter at this point.

Therefore, if the incumbent tones down at least some of his earlier statements, this may help some people perhaps to be slightly less fearful, and see what real change they can help with - which could of course be both with the new Prez and gov't, or in a clearly necessary (even grassroot) opposition.

Anything which somewhat softens the tone of the incumbent's campaign trail madness - which undoubtedly was there -, and its outlandish, even obscene propositions ought to be welcomed. The shock in America, and in parts of the world, has been too big to see any of the TFO's now apparently softening as 'normal', in my opinion.

It may be difficult to trust, but this here to me seems a (small) step in the right direction.
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

You have used it to blast her on the Internet precisely because you believe a slut ought not occupy the position of president's spouse.

How precisely do you expect Melania Trump to avoid your scathing criticism? What actions must she take?

Or is the answer "none are possible," in which case you are shooting helpless fish in a barrel?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

You have used it to blast her on the Internet precisely because you believe a slut ought not occupy the position of president's spouse.

How precisely do you expect Melania Trump to avoid your scathing criticism? What actions must she take?

Or is the answer "none are possible," in which case you are shooting helpless fish in a barrel?

---

This plus Kelly's vow to pray for poor Melania, make me wonder where this holier than thou attitude was when you were both "blasting [Donald] on the internet." Where were your sad prayers then? How was he supposed to avoid your scathing criticism? Where was your new rule that says if he can't change his past then he's a helpless fish in a barrel?

Trump looks over at Melania at the polls and he's an abuser, her round shoulders are proof she's afraid of him. I looked over at my husband when we were at the polls the very same way. He is tall, like Melania, and his shoulders were rounded over the low table. My look said, "Are you ever going to be finished?" just like Trump's.

I can't believe the double standard here. Oh yes, she isn't running for President, she didn't grab anyone's crotch, etc. but they are both in the public eye, part of the top establishment, happy to live their lives in front of the media when it comes to GQ and Vogue interviews with flattering covers on the fronts. So why, after 137 pages of Trump criticism,is one word against Melania so cruel?

It simply is not misogyny every time a woman is criticized. Misogyny has to be much more generalized than saying "I don't like Kristen Stewart's acting." It has to be "Women shouldn't have serious roles." We don't have to admire every woman in the public eye. We don't have to like our boss just because she's a woman. Feminism isn't supposed to be like the sort of blind patriotism that carries signs saying,"My country right or wrong." If women have the right to make their own choices then those choices should be as subject to criticism as any man's. I thought we wanted equality, not coddling.

Blasting Donald while praying for Melania. Treating grown women like children who must be protected from imaginary abusers. Writing imaginary, sympathetic scenarios to explain the women's actions while imagining the very worst where the men are concerned -- that's making special rules for the weaker set. That's misogyny in disguise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Melania Trump was in the public eye before she married her husband. Donald Trump was a public figure when she married him. I do think slut and bimbo are misogynistic terms, but I also think there is nothing wrong with Twilight's overall judgement of Melania Trump's choices.

Any institution which does not treat women and gay people as whole and complete people made in the image of God is perpetuating sexism and homophobia. Churches such the LCMS, the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention, and many evangelical churches are a big part of the reason sexism and homophobia remain normal and acceptable in our society. They are holding us back, and for this I hold them as institutions on contempt. I have zero interest in a Dead Horses debate here or elsewhere, because there is nothing to debate. However individuals have voted, these institutions are supporting sexism and anti-gay bigotry. In the aftermath of this horrific election, they have a portion of guilt for their roles in making it okay for some people to see women and gay people as less than fully human.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In the poverty-ridden artistic circles I move in the burning issue is health insurance. There is always of course the hope that Trump will not follow through on his promises, but the GOP has been planning to gut Obamacare for years now, so I think it is going to happen.

I am blogging about this issue today, and am collecting accounts of people who were saved by Obamacare, or who cannot now survive without it and the other safety nets. It may be useful someday, to have all these in one place.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
RuthW

A tangent. As a West Wing episode pointed out a dozen years ago, the real security nightmare is the abduction by terrorists of a member of the President's family. There are real additional security risks associated with a President's partner continuing a career if that career involves substantial daily and routine contact with the public.

This isn't an argument against your criticism of the ceremonial supportive role. Some Presidential partners can carry that off with ease and do a lot of good, others not so. But the choice to continue a career may be a lot more difficult than we think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
HRC pretty much owned the Catholic vote, if my info is right

---

quote:

---

In the run-up to the election, only the IBD-TIPP poll consistently pointed to a Trump win among Catholics, as CRUX noted last week. Almost all the others suggested a significant margin of victory for Clinton.

Now that the voting is over, however, preliminary results indicate Trump decisively won a majority of those self-identifying as Catholics, by 52 to 45 percent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Melania Trump was in the public eye before she married her husband. Donald Trump was a public figure when she married him. I do think slut and bimbo are misogynistic terms, but I also think there is nothing wrong with Twilight's overall judgement of Melania Trump's choices. ...

---

quote:

---

And what about her recent, public anti-cyberbullying statement? Is she clueless? Ironic? Trying to communicate with the Cyberbully-in-Chief through the media? Or is she just tossing rocks from a hyuuuuuge glass tower?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
At any rate, a First Spouse working at a "regular" job would be a security nightmare.

---

quote:

---

Y'know, I thought Trump would revert to type, and sure enough he did. He is, at his very core, a bullshitter and a confidence man, pure and simple. He promises everything and delivers nothing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Again, I don't understand how individuals within a sexist/ homophobic institution basically saying no to those things is anything but really good news. When I was a kid, both the ALC and the ELCA held the same basic views on women/ gays that the LCMS did, then one day someone simply declared it was ok to disagree, and ten years later they were ordaining women.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Frankly, that's his attraction for me. He's a RINO (Republican in Name Only): the party elites hate him, he doesn't get along with the GOP's corporate donors, and he has at least as many problems relating to his own party as he does with the Democrats.

I predict he'll settle for a cap on Obamacare rate increases.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There is also the point that other countries do it. Isn't there a Mr. Merkel, somewhere?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
My bet right now is that the worst things he will do(from a progressive perspective) are things that any Republican POTUS would have done.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
My bet right now is that the worst things he will do(from a progressive perspective) are things that any Republican POTUS would have done.

---

It's not just him. It's the neonazis and other hategemongers he has unleashed, who are spreading fear and injuries (no deaths we know of yet, although a shooting in Portland looks suspicious) across the country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Maybe the LCMS will change, but it seems more likely to me that Lutherans who feel strongly about sexism and homophobia have by this point defected to other Lutheran churches.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I've heard rumors that some where in Trump's sit down with Obama, Obama tried to talk him down off that ledge, and that Trump was holding off on changes to the ACA until further notice. A straw of hope to grasp.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Frankly, that's his attraction for me. He's a RINO (Republican in Name Only): the party elites hate him, he doesn't get along with the GOP's corporate donors, and he has at least as many problems relating to his own party as he does with the Democrats.

I predict he'll settle for a cap on Obamacare rate increases.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Um...but is Trump emotionally/mentally stable?

---

quote:

---

Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown. in his simple show he harbours Treason...the welfare of us all, hangs on the cutting short that fraudfull man.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I see my self as encouraging every woman to do the best she can to support other women wherever she is, without requiring her to be where I am at. Meeting people where they are rather than where you want them to be. Bridge building. Network building. Finding common ground and going from there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I see my self as encouraging every woman to do the best she can to support other women wherever she is, without requiring her to be where I am at. Meeting people where they are rather than where you want them to be. Bridge building. Network building. Finding common ground and going from there.

---

A year ago, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Now I'm not certain. I think both the Brexit vote and the Trump election have demonstrated that bridge building and finding common ground is currently failing on an epic scale. That we are in a society where demagoguery wins in the face of gentle reason. And that scares me silly. I don't know what the answer to it is, but it seems clear to me at the moment that rationalising, bridge building and networking with a large number of people simply doesn't work.

---

quote:

---

Alan Dein talks to his Facebook friends across America about the election of Donald Trump. Just hours after the result, Trump and Clinton supporters alike talk passionately about why they voted the way they did - and share their hopes and fears about the future of the United States. Working through the night, Alan tries to understand what the election has revealed about modern America - from California to Tennessee.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Don't miss this!!!

"Saturday Night Live" did something truly beautiful tonight. An absolutely perfect tribute to Hillary, to hope, and to someone who died this week.(YouTube) It is one of the best things I've ever seen, anywhere.

But please, please watch that first video. It's beautiful.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

---

I have plenty of great anecdotes about human beings. Shall we swap a few?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, if you really want to miss my point, sure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, if you really want to miss my point, sure.

---

Maybe if you had some evidence I wouldn't miss your point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:
It's a core theme of humanity. Yorkshire pudding goes with beef but not sushi or fruit salad. Misogyny goes with Christianity, but also Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Labour party, video gaming and fashion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I see my self as encouraging every woman to do the best she can to support other women wherever she is, without requiring her to be where I am at. Meeting people where they are rather than where you want them to be. Bridge building. Network building. Finding common ground and going from there.

If you are a wired differently, so be it, but I'd like to believe I am wired the way I am for a reason.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Stephen Bannon as W.H. strategist? (WaPo link) Can we stop pretending now (he said to America as a whole) that this is going to be business as usual?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Godwin's Law looms, almost inevitability, over the aftermath discussions! But who can blame us? 'Breibart' Brannon's appointment in that role is an act of aggression.

I wonder what effect it might have on some fairly jittery stock markets? Never mind the already rattled Washington circles.

I suppose the 'madman' theory may be in play again. But I doubt it. This looks for real. As mousethief says.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Um...but is Trump emotionally/mentally stable?

---

The general description is that he is personality disordered. Narcissist who is the only person who matters, everyone else is an object to be manipulated or used. People are disposable like tissues or plastic bags.

---

Thanks for the info.

Actually, I'm hoping SPK will respond because s/he seems very much in favor of Trump, and I wondered if SPK perceived the imbalance that many of the rest of us see.

If someone doesn't perceive the imbalance, or thinks it's more or less election performance art (something I heard on the radio), then supporting Trump is a little more understandable.

FWIW.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Ruth--

Re Obama and not compromising:

What, please, do you think he could have done differently? He has only so much direct, executive power. And IIRC the Democrats weren't always happy with him, so he didn't have partnership there, either.
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
The view from 'Airstrip One' will not be of much comfort to you, Golden Key.

Seriously, we're not yet at the formation of Neofascist International Inc. but I can well understand the nervousness.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ruth--

Re Obama and not compromising:

What, please, do you think he could have done differently? He has only so much direct, executive power. And IIRC the Democrats weren't always happy with him, so he didn't have partnership there, either.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The view from 'Airstrip One' will not be of much comfort to you, Golden Key.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
He started with a willingness to compromise without recognizing that he was dealing with people who had no intention of working with him, and thus gave up valuable ground.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Barnabas--

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The view from 'Airstrip One' will not be of much comfort to you, Golden Key.

---

???

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ruth--

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
He started with a willingness to compromise without recognizing that he was dealing with people who had no intention of working with him, and thus gave up valuable ground.

---

Hmmmm...I would've thought that attempting compromise makes sense, if no one will work with you.

---

You can't compromise with someone who won't compromise in return.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Stetson--

Ah, thanks! For a different take on that kind of thing, read Daphne du Maurier's "Rule, Britannia".

I suspect you'll like it.

 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Thanks Stetson. Despite confident diplomatic noises in the UK re the Trump Presidency I think 'Airstrip One' might turn out to be more realistic. A different kind of 'special relationship', based on 'we'll get on fine provided you agree wholeheartedly with all our new moves'.

[ 14. November 2016, 06:29: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Stetson--

Ah, thanks! For a different take on that kind of thing, read Daphne du Maurier's "Rule, Britannia".

I suspect you'll like it.

 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
(This could really go on any of the election threads, but figured this is probably the best.)

Re "what now", coping, understanding the other side (whichever it is), etc.:

Yes! magazine has several relevant articles.

From their "About" section:

quote:

---

YES! Magazine reframes the biggest problems of our time in terms of their solutions. Online and in print, we outline a path forward with in-depth analysis, tools for citizen engagement, and stories about real people working for a better world.


Powerful Ideas, Practical Actions

Today’s world is not the one we want—climate change, financial collapse, poverty, and war leave many feeling overwhelmed and hopeless.

YES! Magazine empowers people with the vision and tools to create a healthy planet and vibrant communities. We do this by:

--Reframing issues and outlining a path forward;
--Giving a voice to the people who are making change;
--Offering resources to use and pass along.

YES! Magazine is printed on 100% post-consumer waste, chlorine-free paper. We reach more than 150,000 readers quarterly. More than 140,000 people visit our website each month, where we post new stories every day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sipech:
Really don't think that petition will come to anything. If you have objections to the methodology of an election, they need to clearly articulated before the result is announced.

Contesting the electoral college system now is nothing more than l'esprit d'escalier.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
To be fair, their website does say, "We need to get this done so that the winner of the 2020 election actually reflects the will of the people", so I think they understand that the current election is a lost cause.

---

Serves me right for not reading the link.
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Are we going to follow the trump presidency on this thread or should there be a new one?

Anyway. Yesterday, I heard on BBC World news that many experts believe Trump's win owes a lot to right wing online "news" sites, like Breitbart. I had never heard of it, but I gather it's quite popular with white nationalists. Today, I read that Trump has given Steve Bannon, who once headed Breitbart, a job as Chief Strategist. This is a terrible sign. Just when I was hoping Trump only used those types to get elected and would distance himself from them now.
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Trump likes people who like Trump. That is all you need to understand.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
np--

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Um...but is Trump emotionally/mentally stable?

---

The general description is that he is personality disordered. Narcissist who is the only person who matters, everyone else is an object to be manipulated or used. People are disposable like tissues or plastic bags.

---

Thanks for the info.

Actually, I'm hoping SPK will respond because s/he seems very much in favor of Trump, and I wondered if SPK perceived the imbalance that many of the rest of us see.

If someone doesn't perceive the imbalance, or thinks it's more or less election performance art (something I heard on the radio), then supporting Trump is a little more understandable.

FWIW.

---

Whoever said I was in favour of Trump?!?


I am a Canadian New Democrat, I am so far to the left that I am on another planet.

Yes, the man is imbalanced. I would not say in a clinical sense, but he clearly has issues of a literary hubris nature. His character is deeply flawed, to the point where I would say he has a spot on his soul. But what man's soul is pure when your career was in New York real estate development?

But I won't demonize him to death when his compromise could save millions of people's medical bills.

Besides, I refuse to feed the troll. He is a wind-up merchant and a bullshitter. Politics abounds with these people. But it was said to me that in Canada, the Maritimes expected their politicians to be over-the-top and not completely serious in their promises, while central and western Canadians take every word a politician says literally as either a certain promise or an outright lie.

A little perspective goes a long way.
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Are we going to follow the trump presidency on this thread or should there be a new one?

---

quote:

---

Whoever said I was in favour of Trump?!?
[Mad]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think you are both wrong. Patriarchy was the old social model, within which you could find both kindness and misogyny, sometimes mixed up. Patriarchy was an unfair social model, since the stereotypes it implied simply didn't recognise human diversity, in terms
of character, gifts and talents.

---

(Emphasis mine.)

"Was"? "Implied"? Seriously???

 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ruth--

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
He started with a willingness to compromise without recognizing that he was dealing with people who had no intention of working with him, and thus gave up valuable ground.

---

Hmmmm...I would've thought that attempting compromise makes sense, if no one will work with you.

---

You can't compromise with someone who won't compromise in return.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

I can't believe it would help anything to tell the woman above that she is letting down the team by staying in a sexist institution, or that if she had a problem with the Phrase "First Slut" she isn't really committed. We've had almost a year of every kind of hateful demeaning language thrown at women you can think of; whatever way I am going to fight, it will be in a way that respects the women I am fighting with. They have had enough.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
I think it's still hard to tell which statements we should be taking literally.

---

quote:

---

Nobody who isn't racist is going to pretend to be racist; nobody who isn't sexist is going to pretend to be sexist; nobody who respects liberal democracy and the rule of law is going to pretend not to respect liberal democracy and the rule of law. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

quote:

---

Nobody who isn't racist is going to pretend to be racist; nobody who isn't sexist is going to pretend to be sexist; nobody who respects liberal democracy and the rule of law is going to pretend not to respect liberal democracy and the rule of law.

---

Umm... unless it is your goal to get those racists, sexists and pocket fascists to vote for you. And of course if you have no morals. Then you say what you need to say, to get them to do what you want. Afterwards, you may or may not throw them over the side. Depending upon your own needs and convenience. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
So the task for any defeated political party is to put together a new coalition and the way to do that is to force apart the coalition currently in power.

So Kelly is quite correct not to tell her Catholic friend that she is propping up a sexist institution. That helps precisely no-one. As far as the electorate is concerned it must be remembered that one catches more flies with honey, than with vinegar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

I'm going to tolerate being in a coalition with a sexist institution. It's just reality, and I'll have to live with it for the time being. But there is no way on earth I will back down from my position about the sexism in some of the groups I'll be making common cause with over the next few years. I'll do my best not to choke on the irony that sexism is a primary reason we are facing at least four years of shameless kleptocracy, abuse of power, and outright stupidity.

---

A home run. See it soar into the stands.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

quote:

---

Nobody who isn't racist is going to pretend to be racist; nobody who isn't sexist is going to pretend to be sexist; nobody who respects liberal democracy and the rule of law is going to pretend not to respect liberal democracy and the rule of law.

---

Umm... unless it is your goal to get those racists, sexists and pocket fascists to vote for you. And of course if you have no morals. Then you say what you need to say, to get them to do what you want. Afterwards, you may or may not throw them over the side. Depending upon your own needs and convenience.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Interesting insight reported in the Economist editorial this week:

Trump's supporters took him seriously but not literally;

Trump's opponents took him literally but not seriously.

---

quote:

---

(Why is this different from the conservatives claiming Obama was going to lock up his political opponents? Well, Obama never said he was going to lock up his political opponents, and Trump did.) [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

I'm going to tolerate being in a coalition with a sexist institution. It's just reality, and I'll have to live with it for the time being. But there is no way on earth I will back down from my position about the sexism in some of the groups I'll be making common cause with over the next few years. I'll do my best not to choke on the irony that sexism is a primary reason we are facing at least four years of shameless kleptocracy, abuse of power, and outright stupidity.

---

A home run. See it soar into the stands.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

I'm going to tolerate being in a coalition with a sexist institution. It's just reality, and I'll have to live with it for the time being. But there is no way on earth I will back down from my position about the sexism in some of the groups I'll be making common cause with over the next few years. I'll do my best not to choke on the irony that sexism is a primary reason we are facing at least four years of shameless kleptocracy, abuse of power, and outright stupidity.

---

A home run. See it soar into the stands.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Callan:
So Kelly is quite correct not to tell her Catholic friend that she is propping up a sexist institution. That helps precisely no-one. As far as the electorate is concerned it must be remembered that one catches more flies with honey, than with vinegar.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Callan:
When Obama was elected the Republicans announced that their aim was to make him a one term President. The Democrats should return the compliments with knobs on.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Callan:
I would have thought that the national interest was best served by not having a Russian Asset in the White House. Everything else is a matter of detail.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Callan:
Read this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar

Now, here is the problem. After 2010, the Republicans won control of a surprising number of state legislatures. They redrew the district maps to create as many safe house seats as possible. In the Senate, 33 seats will be contested. Of those, 33 seats only 8 are currently held by Republicans. Of those 8 held by Republicans, only 1 of them is in a state won by Clinton. Of 25 held by Democrats, 10 of them are in states carried by Trump. You do the math. Again, Trump is the president so it's certainly possible.

---

quote:

---

Trump promised he'd bring back manufacturing jobs, build a wall, deport people, register Muslims, crack down on minorities, and so on. Most of these promises will probably turn out to be verbal vaporware, like so much of what comes out of Trump's mouth, but he got into office because of those promises. I think a large number of his voters took him literally and will expect that these promises will come to pass. If not, they'll turn on him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Sioni: the answer in such cases is NOT to stop swinging.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Hard to see why the United States should be more worried about Russian encroachment into the Baltic than Germany. Just looking at a map, there is the Atlantic Ocean and every single member of NATO between the US and Russia. I'm thinking the whole rest of Europe can check Russian aggression regardless of what the United States does.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gee D:
Can you help me please. What are the problems with setting up an independent federal electoral commission to draw boundaries, staff polling booths, maintain electoral rolls etc, purely for federal elections of course. Are these legal problems or political?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
BA--

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Hard to see why the United States should be more worried about Russian encroachment into the Baltic than Germany. Just looking at a map, there is the Atlantic Ocean and every single member of NATO between the US and Russia. I'm thinking the whole rest of Europe can check Russian aggression regardless of what the United States does.

---

Pssst...they can also come across the Pacific, you know...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh..John Oliver's company includes Americans as well. Nobody said they didn't have a right to say what they said. Of course, you can't control how others are going to react to what you say. Maybe, continuing to call 60 million people names will work this time. How sure is everybody it will work this time? What if it doesn't? What if Donald Trump is as bad as he can be while obeying the law? What if the name calling is every bit as effective as it was this election? What then?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gee D:
Thanks Golden Key - I was thinking purely of federal elections, not presidential (which I understand is constitutional) or state.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anteater:
I apologise for using this thread to ask a question which may be off-piste, since I am not generally engaged in the thread. So . .

Does anyone know of research that indicates what effect third-party candidates had on the election result?

I'm just interested.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It is quite telling, in lots of disturbing ways, that Bannon appears to be at very least courting white supremicists and anti-semites whilst at the same time (along with some of those groups) supporting Zionism and Israel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gee D--

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gee D:
Can you help me please. What are the problems with setting up an independent federal electoral commission to draw boundaries, staff polling booths, maintain electoral rolls etc, purely for federal elections of course. Are these legal problems or political?

---

There's be cultural problems: distrust of the federal gov't, attitudes about states' rights, hating being told what to do. Those things are really entrenched.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can't find the link now, but a legislator in Georgia has proposed banning the hijab. Ladies in my circle are already discussing asking Catholic nuns to weigh in. Also Mennonites (if there are any in Georgia), and someone has produced the relevant text from 1Cor, the one about how women ought to cover their hair.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Hmm...there is a lot of twitter chatter about the Muslim registry thing being planned. Included in the chatter is a video on Fox New of a surrogate suggesting as precedent Japanese internment camps and saying its OK to take away constitutional rights and protections of some "until we know what the threat is". To Fox news credit, the host told him how wrong the precedent was and how wrong he was about the constitutional rights idea. "

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

If the Trump administration attempts to implement this, there will be a boycott USA backlash. Get ready for adverts saying "How can you go to the Magic Kingdom while America does this?"

---

quote:

---

originally posted by GeeD:
Can you help me please. What are the problems with setting up an independent federal electoral commission to draw boundaries, staff polling booths, maintain electoral rolls etc, purely for federal elections of course. Are these legal problems or political?

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Stetson:
So, even if he doesn't build that wall, if he throws a bit more money at Homeland Security to fortify the border here and there, and then fires off a few obnoxious tweests about how this is gonna keep out all the rapists and drug-dealers(thus provoking outrage from liberals and Democrats in the media), a lot of his fans will probably think he's really taking action on the issue.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Golden Key:
Pssst...they can also come across the Pacific, you know...

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Barnabas62:
And the Bering Strait between Russia and Alaska is all of 51 miles wide.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by mr. cheesy:
It is quite telling, in lots of disturbing ways, that Bannon appears to be at very least courting white supremicists and anti-semites whilst at the same time (along with some of those groups) supporting Zionism and Israel.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Barnabas62:
But I doubt whether Trump has thought that through.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
If the Trump administration attempts to implement this, there will be a boycott USA backlash. Get ready for adverts saying "How can you go to the Magic Kingdom while America does this?"

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Penny S:
Not doing his own cause any good, except in the ears of his alt-right followers, I should imagine.

---

quote:

---

Yes, but alt-right has replaced "tea party" which had replaced "neocon" as the left's new scare label. Basically, it means the vast majority of people who voted for Trump. So, only doing good in the ears of his alt-right followers means doing quite a bit of good. Now, all the people who are actually alt-right could go to Disney World on the same day and the park wouldn't be that crowded. Neoconservatives...now they were bad. Everybody knew they were a cabal of Jewish intellectuals and bureaucrats who seized control of the Republican Party and used the United States to do the bidding of Israel. Wait...is stuff like that anti-semitic now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

originally posted by Golden Key:
Pssst...they can also come across the Pacific, you know...

---

Depends on what you mean by
come across the Pacific. Do you mean the Russians have naval vessels that can make it across the Pacific? Then, yes, they can in fact come across the Pacific. On the other hand, if you mean that the Russians can invade the West Coast of the United States by crossing the Pacific, then the answer is no, no, they can't come across the Pacific.

---

O...k... Look, this conversation would be much easier if you'd detail what you mean. E.g., "There's nothing worthwhile enough on the West Coast"; "They'd get tangled in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch"; "Here there be sea monsters".


According to the Pacific Centric World Map (Maps Of World), they really *can* get here from there.


Enlighten us, please.
 

---

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Thanks to all for your comments and advice. It's a pity in many ways that there is no federal commission - that would deal with behaviour noted on earlier threads about intimidation, restrictions on voting access and so forth. Also have a more equal drawing of electoral boundaries.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
It would be an excellent thing indeed, and all wiser observers agree that it would be good to implement. Alas, the upcoming regime is unlikely to be interested. They won on the dodgy tactics, and cannot now concede any flaw,
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
So-called alt-right(not sure if anyone actually cops to that label) are more pre-occupied with race, in a Bell Curve sort of a way. Their roots seem to be more on the internet, various "white nationalist" bloggers etc. Some of them tend to be anti-Israel and isolationist, in a way that veers into Charles Lindbergh territory. They generally don't care for the people labelled neo-con.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From everything I can see, the core of alt-right is racism and misogyny. Whatever other flavours mixed into individula recipes, this stock is in its base.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that goes for the far right generally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
AIUI alt-right was coined by the people it refers to.
As I understand it, alt-right differs from the traditional far right in being largely atheist, libertarian, pro-elitist, and pro-STEM(*). Basically they're Randwankers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From everything I can see, the core of alt-right is racism and misogyny. Whatever other flavours mixed into individula recipes, this stock is in its base.

---

I think that goes for the far right generally. (And the not so far right. And if we're honest some parts of the centre and the left.) It's the other bits that distinguish the alt-right from the traditional far right.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
"Alt-right" is simply a new name for neo-Nazi white nationalists. Robert Spencer claims to have invented the term. He wants the US to be a safe space for Americans of European descent. He was interviewed on All Things Considered (National Public Radio news show) last night. You can listen or read the transcript here. Try not to throw up.

---

quote:

---

SPENCER: Whenever many different races are in the same school, what will happen is that there'll be a natural segregation at lunchtime, at PE, at - in terms of after-school play.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that goes for the far right generally.

---

Bzzt! Not so fast.

Marine le Pen

and her niece

Marion Maréchal-Le Pen

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wesley J:
The TFO appears to have settled a lawsuit relating to his Trump University alleged fraud.

Good thing? Bad thing? Any thoughts on this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This bit from the repulsive toad

quote:

---

SPENCER: Whenever many different races are in the same school, what will happen is that there'll be a natural segregation at lunchtime, at PE, at - in terms of after-school play.

---

is a clue as to why President-elect Cheeto came to be.
The statement portrays a result as an origin. Uncritical acceptance of such shite draws the bordering, less hardened racist-ish people.

---

I can attest that this is not a universal truth. The school I taught at the last 2 years could have been invented to disprove that claim. The lunchroom was fully integrated, there were no signs of racial antagonism in the hallways or classrooms. Pairs in the halls were of ever conceivable configuration given the make-up of the student body. Black with white, white with hispanic, black with Asian, boy with boy, girl with girl* -- nobody seemed to care who was holding hands with whom. As it should be.


_______________
*A sampling. Complete the chart yourself.
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
My early childhood was in an atmosphere were race wasn't a concept. It wasn't "not mentioned", it simply was not a thing. I did not know that colour was "important" until I was exposed to greater society.
Racism is taught. A problem is that adults think they are more subtle than they are. Their attitudes are communicated and passed to their children with words and actions they think children will miss and/or that they do not know they are expressing.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is well known. As the song goes, "You've got to be taught to hate and fear; you've got to be carefully taught."
 

---

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Mike Pence received a few boos when he attended a performance of "Hamilton." Then the cast delivered a short statement to him.

Well, our twitter-happy president-elect couldn't resist tweeting about it

So a new twitter meme has emerged Name a Pence Musical

My favorite is "The Lyin' King"

sabine
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
My early childhood was in an atmosphere were race wasn't a concept. It wasn't "not mentioned", it simply was not a thing. I did not know that colour was "important" until I was exposed to greater society.
Racism is taught. A problem is that adults think they are more subtle than they are. Their attitudes are communicated and passed to their children with words and actions they think children will miss and/or that they do not know they are expressing.

---

My early childhood was spent in 1960s South Africa. Racism was enshrined in law. I was taught to be the opposite, my parents broke the law all the time.

But yes, attitudes to everything are learned from the adults (and peers) around us.

I'm appalled that it looks like the only woman in Trump's line up will be Sarah Palin

It feels like the world has suddenly regressed 70 years. Why did none of us see this coming? Echo chamber effect?
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is well known. As the song goes, "You've got to be taught to hate and fear; you've got to be carefully taught."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

It feels like the world has suddenly regressed 70 years. Why did none of us see this coming? Echo chamber effect?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The idea of self imposed bubbles is so bizarre to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The idea of self imposed bubbles is so bizarre to me.

---

How much do you hang out on, say, Free Republic as compared to the Ship?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Some people undoubtedly have broader social circles than others, but I think it's perilous to entertain the notion that we don't live in a self-imposed bubble ourselves. In real life I try hard not to, for instance by doing assignments in worlds I would normally never go anywhere near, but it takes a positive effort.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sabine:
Mike Pence received a few boos when he attended a performance of "Hamilton." Then the cast delivered a short statement to him.

Well, our twitter-happy president-elect couldn't resist tweeting about it

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:
The booing was a bit crass, but the prepared speech seemed a fairly legitimate response. Someone should tell Pence and Trump that if you go to the theatre sooner or later you are going to have to face ideas that challenge your own.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Worse things have happened to Republicans who went to the theatre.

---

 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Politicians get booed at sporting events all the time. Including Pence in the past in Indiana, by some accounts I saw today.

Typical how those who claim their opponents have thin skins and can't take criticism are showing an inability to take any criticism.

[ 20. November 2016, 01:03: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
--Re being booed:

Condi Rice, then Secretary of State, was booed when she went to a Broadway play during Hurricane Katrina, and also got a backlash for doing expensive shopping then. Several years later, she said she should've realized that was a bad idea.


--Re Trump and possible conflicts of interest:

All kinds of fun things going on. (HuffPost)
 

---

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Evidently, when Mike Pence attended "Hamilton", he was the least popular vice president in the room. Remember Aaron Burr was onstage.
 

---

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Some people undoubtedly have broader social circles than others, but I think it's perilous to entertain the notion that we don't live in a self-imposed bubble ourselves. In real life I try hard not to, for instance by doing assignments in worlds I would normally never go anywhere near, but it takes a positive effort.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
Evidently, when Mike Pence attended "Hamilton", he was the least popular vice president in the room. Remember Aaron Burr was onstage.

---

(Wry smile.)
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
cliffdweller--

And I'm still hoping that it's some weird, extended nightmare, and I'll wake up soon.

I'm less driven to look up all sorts of Trump news, but I do come across some of it. I'm watching a lot of retro TV--even Dr. Who, though it was weird to see it on a commercial station!

I hate the way that Trump et al have scared everyone, including little kids who're worried they're going to be shipped off.

I'm also intrigued by all the reality water balloons that are headed Trump's way--illegal nepotism, assorted other protocol and legal problems. I think even the pope made a thinly-veiled reference to him, about being good to immigrants and not walling them out. (Something he reportedly said, in the last couple of days.)

Cue more creative protests, like the "Hamilton" cast's.

I'm not sure whether T's Twitter habit is bad (we have to hear about it, and he may say all sorts of stuff he shouldn't, and give away secrets), or good (the more he talks, the more he spills about himself and his ideas). Probably both.


 

---

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I assume that this is the right thread for this. General Flynn has been nominated to be National Security Advisor. That gives Putin a man in the White House, at a very senior level, who has taken his money.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gee D:
I assume that this is the right thread for this. General Flynn has been nominated to be National Security Advisor. That gives Putin a man in the White House, at a very senior level, who has taken his money.

---

This farce gets more farcical by the day.


 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Just saw a promo for the new version of "Celebrity Apprentice", hosted by...Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Given various news stories and allegations, back when Arnold was governor here, NBC may not have improved the interpersonal behavior of the host.

Years back, someone in Congress wanted to change the "natural-born citizen" clause, specifically so that Arnold could be president. Fortunately, that didn't get very far.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh God oh God oh God ohGod. I hope this doesn't mean he has dropped his newfound eco- consciousness.
 

---

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Iran. What is the US going to do about the nuclear deal? Hopefully it's irrelevant as Europe and Russia will keep to the deal. What would Trump do then? He won't alienate Russia. Will he continue Obama's sanctions on it for Ukraine? I doubt it and I doubt he gives a damn what Europe thinks: he'll just do deals with everybody on a bilateral basis. Win-win like Krupp in the Boer War: supply both sides. The liberal multilateral West is dead. So why not continue the deal with Iran?

[ 20. November 2016, 12:37: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gee D:
I assume that this is the right thread for this. General Flynn has been nominated to be National Security Advisor. That gives Putin a man in the White House, at a very senior level, who has taken his money.

---

This farce gets more farcical by the day.

---

I disagree. The farce is becoming clearer, but no greater.
But it will not change his base; the farce can have a strong influence on the weak minded.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
lilBuddha--

Hmmm...so what we need is for Obi Wan Kenobi to tell the Trump machine "this is not the country you are looking for"?

 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Gwai--

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Boy is that true! I think it's still hard to tell which statements we should be taking literally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Iran. What is the US going to do about the nuclear deal? Hopefully it's irrelevant as Europe and Russia will keep to the deal. What would Trump do then? He won't alienate Russia. Will he continue Obama's sanctions on it for Ukraine? I doubt it and I doubt he gives a damn what Europe thinks: he'll just do deals with everybody on a bilateral basis. Win-win like Krupp in the Boer War: supply both sides. The liberal multilateral West is dead. So why not continue the deal with Iran?

---

Hard to say. Probably try to renegotiate the deal. If that doesn't work, who knows? My guess is say he tried but Obama and the Europeans negotiated a lousy deal so we just have to live with it. Trump isn't a true believer in neoconservative foreign policy. We may no more when he picks a Secretary of State.
 

---

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Smart. You and him. Let's hope he is eh? And yeah, he believes in nothing at all but the deal.

[ 21. November 2016, 19:42: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
{This is hilarious, straight out of a suspense movie, and very serious--all at the same time. Please bear with me.}

So an AP photographer, a camera, and a candidate to head Homeland Security (and his secret papers) all walk into a bar...ok, walk up to Trump's golf clubhouse.

The HS candidate isn't careful with his papers, and the photographer notices.



You'd almost think it was done on purpose.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
From Time Magazine, a sobering analysis of what supporting Trump has done for evangelicals. For instance, the idea that a candidate has to be moral has completely gone by the board, a 180-degree reversal in direction.
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
From Time Magazine, a sobering analysis of what supporting Trump has done for evangelicals. For instance, the idea that a candidate has to be moral has completely gone by the board, a 180-degree reversal in direction.

---

One of those obnoxious articles that slams shut just as it's getting interesting.
 

---

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :
 
Some good news this morning:
President-elect Trump has said that Nigel Farage should be the United Kingdom's ambassador to the United States.

Obviously that's not the good news. In response, Mr Farage said: "If I can help the UK in anyway, I will."

Suggestions on a postcard for how Mr Farage might help the UK..

AFZ
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
And it gets better :

Pence is in the pocket of Big Tobacco, and may try to undo regulations thereof. (Yahoo)

To the extent that his 2000 campaign website said "smoking doesn't kill".

Grrrr.

I think these guys are playing Bingo, and are trying to win with blackout. (Marking off every square on the card.)
 

---

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Evidently we have not yet plumbed the depths of Mr Trump's ignorance. Ambassadors are civil servants, not politicians.

I see the Kippers are being accused of misuse of EU funds now, though I doubt it will bother their supporters.
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
What do you all think about the speech made by the "Hamilton," star to Pence? For those who haven't heard anything about it, Mr. Pence attended the play with his daughters. At the end of the play, while the cast was on stage, one of the stars read a prepared speech to Pence as he was getting up to leave with the Secret Service:

quote:

---

We, sir — we — are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights,” he said. “We truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us.”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
What do you all think about the speech made by the "Hamilton," star to Pence?

---

Twilight, there was a bit of discussion about it on the previous page.
 

---

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.

If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Donald J Trump wants Nigel Farage to be appointed the UK's ambassador to the USA
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Speech is (as of this writing) free in this country. The Tiny Fingered One's complaints about how the media is unfair to him (today on NPR a mention of his complaint that NBC keeps on using a stock photo of him that shows his double chins) are folly. It shows that he has no idea how a free press works, not to mention his obsession with the petty minutiae. (Although I am tell those chins are not exactly minute. Enquiring minds want to know, Mr. Prez -- when are you having a face-lift? Will Pence be in charge while you're under anesthesia?)
It is the job of the president to take the hit and smile. God alone only knows that Obama did. Suck it up, buttercup.
 

---

Posted by Hiro's Leap (# 12470) on :
 
Yes, I couldn't get too worked up about the theatre. Business as usual for politics.

One issue which *did* make me sympathise with Trump et al was when those naked statues of him appeared in various US cities, and the left (and the media) just sniggered and high-fived each other. So much for being against body-shaming.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I didn't. Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women! Let him see how it feels, and maybe notice that it is not so fun.
And word is he's considering one (token) woman for an appointment. She had better bring a big handbag, and hold it in front of her at all times.
 

---

Posted by Hiro's Leap (# 12470) on :
 
Perhaps "sympathise with Trump" is the wrong phrase. He's not a character I find it easy to feel sympathy for - he's awful, plus I'm not sure what would genuinely hurt him.

But those statues, and the media's reaction to them, still irritated me. It was a massive bit of body-shaming, and if Trump supporters had done that to HC first, the response would have been very, very different.
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.

If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by twilight:
Although I disagree with everything Pence stands for and think he may be even more dangerous than Trump, this doesn't sit well with me at all.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by mdijon:
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by mdijon:
If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Speech is (as of this writing) free in this country. The Tiny Fingered One's complaints about how the media is unfair to him (today on NPR a mention of his complaint that NBC keeps on using a stock photo of him that shows his double chins) are folly.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Brenda Clough:
(Although I am tell those chins are not exactly minute. Enquiring minds want to know, Mr. Prez -- when are you having a face-lift? Will Pence be in charge while you're under anesthesia?)

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is the job of the president to take the hit and smile. God alone only knows that Obama did. Suck it up, buttercup.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Trump voters couldn't care less how Broadway actors and a crowd of people who can afford to pay $800 for a ticket feel about politics or anything else. Of course, rich people and Broadway actors don't care much about the feelings of underemployed rednecks in the South or Midwest either. Democrats have basically told their traditional base that they no longer need or even want them and they have no place else to go.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
How far do we carry this though? It's okay to humiliate people in the audience if the stars don't like them? Think they're not nice? Isn't this blaming the victim? Where is the line drawn? Would it be okay to beat Pence up because he's a bigot?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Trump voters couldn't care less how Broadway actors and a crowd of people who can afford to pay $800 for a ticket feel about politics or anything else. Of course, rich people and Broadway actors don't care much about the feelings of underemployed rednecks in the South or Midwest either. Democrats have basically told their traditional base that they no longer need or even want them and they have no place else to go.

---

Didn't the exit polls make it clear that Hillary won the vote under 50k per year income handsomely?

And wasn't Mike Pence in the audience paying $800 for his ticket?

Making this rich vs poor seems pretty screwed up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yes, the Democrats can reliably count on minorities who make under $50,000 to vote for them in large numbers but not always enough to make up for the poor whites that voted for Trump.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?

---

This false moral equivalence to justify a guy who boasts about sexual assault and boasts about his rating of women isn't seemly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yes, the Democrats can reliably count on minorities who make under $50,000 to vote for them in large numbers but not always enough to make up for the poor whites that voted for Trump.

---

But on this occasion the exit polls showed that overall those earning <50k voted for Hillary. Not just minorities earning 50k.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women!

---

Oh...I missed this.

Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?

---

quote:

---

originally posted by mdijon:
So Hillary had a husband who was guilty of sexual harassment at work. And supporters from an industry with a bad record on treatment of women.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is clearly impossible to demand that a political party overthrow the entire structure of sexism in the entertainment industry.

---

Yeah, the entertainment industry would stop giving them money then, huh?
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Originally posted by Beeswax Alter:

quote:

---

The electoral map that shows blue collar areas that had voted Democrat for decades turning red says far more about the problem Democrats have with the working class.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, the blue collar workers voted for a candidate running on a platform that moderate to liberal Democrats were running on when blue collar workers reliably voted for them in every election.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.

---

It's not a precedent when the ugliness has already happened, it is a response. It's a loosing of the dogs of a rhetorical war. Once such a beast is unleashed, it is hard for one side to restrain from any form like tactic. Though I haven't heard the group against the elected people mock disabled people, get accused of sexual assault, suggest their opponents be jailed, want to ban a religion, and anything comparable. The attempts to normalize the people who were elected doesn't seem reasonable from the outside when they so clear aren't.

The idea that the theatre should apologise is unbalance I think when the candidate might need to apologise quite broadly to many. Because these elected people are now elected doesn't mean they automagically deserve and command respect when they have been so evil previously.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
OK...keep telling yourself that voters who voted for Obama twice voted for Trump because they are all stupid racist xenophobes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
An issue that has not been addressed so much is how we now are going to get a Republican Congress. This is not going to be pretty.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.

---

It's not a precedent when the ugliness has already happened, it is a response. It's a loosing of the dogs of a rhetorical war. Once such a beast is unleashed, it is hard for one side to restrain from any form like tactic. Though I haven't heard the group against the elected people mock disabled people, get accused of sexual assault, suggest their opponents be jailed, want to ban a religion, and anything comparable. The attempts to normalize the people who were elected doesn't seem reasonable from the outside when they so clear aren't.

The idea that the theatre should apologise is unbalance I think when the candidate might need to apologise quite broadly to many. Because these elected people are now elected doesn't mean they automagically deserve and command respect when they have been so evil previously.

---

I don't think the theatre should apologize. I think Pence shouldn't have been called out in this venue in the first place, but I would never suggest an apology was in order.

I can't think of anytime when Obama attended a play or concert and had someone from the stage question his policy and advise him on what they hoped he would do. Nor any other president or VP that I know of, ever. It is certainly not politics as usual, because politics are not usually played out from the stage to an individual in the audience.

I don't think it's a matter of "respect," deserved or otherwise. No one suggested he stand for applause. I just think he should have been left alone like everyone else in the audience.

*Pence was in the audience, not Trump. He was in no way there as a representative of Trump.

---

• He's not going to prosecute Clinton. She's suffered enough
• He doesn't like the alt right
• He thinks he might do something about Climate Change after all
• He quite likes reading the NYT
• Yeah, maybe not with that Mexico wall thing
• He doesn't want to see photos of his double chin in the papers
• He thinks he can advise other countries on which diplomats to send to DC
• He says there is no conflict between being President and his business empire. Because.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

[*]He thinks he might do something about Climate Change after all

---

quote:

---

You've just elected someone who doesn't care what he said in the election and is making up shit as he goes along.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He wants to be admired and adored. If he would only see the path to that state!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If free trade kills jobs at home, protectionism kills jobs all over the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He wants to be admired and adored. If he would only see the path to that state!

---

But he primarily wants to be admired and adored by the people directly in front of him at any given moment. Then when he's in front of other people, he wants to be admired and adored by them.

That's why it's so horrific that he has packed his cabinet with white supremacists and big business lackeys and other people whose wants and desires are inimical to the good of our nation and its people. Those are the people he will be "playing to" most of the time. And they're smart enough to play him like a violin by preying on his insecurities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If free trade kills jobs at home, protectionism kills jobs all over the world.

---

If you give me a choice between my job being killed or six jobs in the rest of the world being killed, take a wild guess which one I'll vote for.

---

I thought that in the end, protectionism will kill jobs at home and abroad. There is however, a brilliant solution to this, and a traditional one, indeed a hallowed one: war.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is why so many women I know are afraid. And why a Women's March on Washington spontaneously generated, independent of things like funding or permits.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I think what we will see is a confused mix of Brenda's dream and mousethief's nightmare, combined with plenty of warmongering.

Ho hum. The old curse has come true 'May you live in interesting times'.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Boogie--

Yes, I'm search of whoever uttered that curse.

 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If free trade kills jobs at home, protectionism kills jobs all over the world.

---

If you give me a choice between my job being killed or six jobs in the rest of the world being killed, take a wild guess which one I'll vote for.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gillmck:
Thanks for all of this ... For more ethical dissection of the US Election, there's a discussion of the result, implications, the role of US evangelicals, that sort of thing here: http://www.smallvoice.org.uk/podcast-extra-the-last-trump/

---

I wanted to hate this, but it is actually pretty good. If you could bring some of the ideas and comments from your podcast here to discuss rather than a hit-and-run link, that'd be much more helpful.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
A sliver of hope?


"Curiosity about Wisconsin has centred on apparently disproportionate wins that were racked up by Trump in counties using electronic voting compared with those that used only paper ballots.

Use of the voting machines that are in operation in some Wisconsin counties has been banned in other states, including California, after security analysts repeatedly showed how easily they could be hacked into."
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
On a rather whimsical note...

...the idea of our beloved Nigel Kipper Garbage emigrating to the US of A (as if you poor folk haven't enough to put up with) rather reminded me of the bit in Lord of the Rings where the weaselly traitor Wormtongue (Garbage) is condemned to be immured in the Tower of Orthanc (Trump Tower?) with the would-be Dark Lord Saruman (The Orange One)...



IJ
 

---

Posted by Gillmck (# 12870) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gillmck:
Thanks for all of this ... For more ethical dissection of the US Election, there's a discussion of the result, implications, the role of US evangelicals, that sort of thing here: http://www.smallvoice.org.uk/podcast-extra-the-last-trump/

---

I wanted to hate this, but it is actually pretty good. If you could bring some of the ideas and comments from your podcast here to discuss rather than a hit-and-run link, that'd be much more helpful.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
candidate for all America seeking a miserly 269+1. Feminist without sisters, mother without sons, perpetually buttoned up in a botoxed (?) cocoon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He will do good things, not because he is in any way interested in doing anything in particular, but because otherwise he will go down in history as a Loser President, down there with Millard Fillmore.

---

AIUI, Fillmore is known for putting the first bathtub in the White House.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
All right, let's have something fun. Here is the Amazon listing for a Trump Christmas ornament. Go down and read the comments. There must be thousands of them, all of them LOL funny. This is as good as the Binder Full of Women reviews.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Brenda
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Brenda has some sort of magical Trump-shit detector thing going on. I love that link! Amazon just wants to seriously sell the ornament, but humans have turned it into a free form parody. I have hope.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
In those dear dead days beyond recall, when Mitt Romney boasted of his binders full of women, a cheap ordinary 3-ring binder on Amazon was designated as That Binder. The reviews must have numbered in the thousands, page after page of complaints about how it was not pink, how women did not have three-hole punches, etc. etc. You could laugh until you fell off your desk chair.

Pure crowd-sourced humor. It is delightful to see that some traditions do not die.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
there are also apparently Trump diapers and menstrual pads.
 

---

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Dave W

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
candidate for all America seeking a miserly 269+1. Feminist without sisters, mother without sons, perpetually buttoned up in a botoxed (?) cocoon.

Kwesi, you made all of one post on the election thread about 2 years ago; faced with the grotesque that is President-elect Donald Trump, this is what you're moved to write?

WTF?

"seeking a miserly 269+1" As if she were carefully trying to avoid winning by more than the barest minimum.

"mother without sons?" Yes, how dare she consider herself a valid candidate - a female whose claim to motherhood consists only of a solitary daughter!

"botoxed (?)" What's with the question mark? You don't know, but can't miss the opportunity to take a swipe at her appearance?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
Dave W

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
candidate for all America seeking a miserly 269+1. Feminist without sisters, mother without sons, perpetually buttoned up in a botoxed (?) cocoon.

Kwesi, you made all of one post on the election thread about 2 years ago; faced with the grotesque that is President-elect Donald Trump, this is what you're moved to write?

WTF?

"seeking a miserly 269+1" As if she were carefully trying to avoid winning by more than the barest minimum.

"mother without sons?" Yes, how dare she consider herself a valid candidate - a female whose claim to motherhood consists only of a solitary daughter!

"botoxed (?)" What's with the question mark? You don't know, but can't miss the opportunity to take a swipe at her appearance?

---

269+1. The office which Hilary Clinton was seeking was that of President of the United States, to represent all Americans. That vision seemed absent from campaign tactics aimed to mobilise identified gender and ethnic categories to achieve narrowly what was necessary to win. Her reference to “deplorables" to described supporters of Trump betrayed the mindset, just as Romney indicated the Republicans could forget 47 percent of the electorate when he ran against Obama. Candidates, of course, are aware of the importance of sectional difference and the importance of core supporters, but there needs to be a vision for all. Harry Truman, Lyndon Johnson, Ronald Reagan Bill Clinton, were happy warriors who loved America and its people. The trick is to have a campaign focus that stretches beyond core support and offers a vision, however vacuous (“Morning in America”, “Shining City..” “We can do it,... and all that) was remarkably absent from the Democrats’ appeal in 2016.

---