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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Screaming babies during worship
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Why don't some people have the common decency to step out of a service when their child is crying uncontrollably?
Disclaimer: Now, I love children as much as anyone, spend five days a week with the lovely darlings, and have one of my own (and hopefully more to follow).
Continuing: I'm talking about full-blown, seemingly endless crying, and parents who seem completely oblivious to the idea that the sounds erupting from their bundle of joy or toddler as it were may be spiritually disruptive as well as unpleasant. Mercy -- it's a worship service! True, one's own participation suffers by stepping out, but compared to subjecting an entire congregation to a relentless, desperately unhappy child, is it not the right thing to do?
[ 02. June 2003, 23:35: Message edited by: Erin ]
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
is it not the right thing to do?
Parents of small children who cry a lot also need to worship. In fact, they probably get very little break from the crying. Often, the nursery staff cannot handle the child because nurseries are usually underequipped to handle such a child. So, perhaps, someone who does not have small, crying children could volunteer to take the crying child out for a walk once in a while.
So, help out rather than complaining. But then, perhaps you already do. In that case, I take my hat off to you.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Qestia
Marshwiggle
# 717
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Posted
Well, since he used the term parentS, it seems there are two of them and they could switch off taking their little bundle of joy out of the room. That's what parents tend to do at our church (that is, the ones who aren't letting their larger bundles of joy run up and down the aisles): first the dad walks the kid out of the church, then the mom does. That way, the worship needs of two people are not interfering with the worship of the entire congregation.
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I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t an Aslan to lead it.
I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.
Posts: 1213 | From: Boston | Registered: Jul 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
If they are people who are not used to church they may not realise that worship usually requires quiet attentiveness (except when singing of course). At a baptism recently (during a normal service) there were a large number of people who were clearly not used to being inside church at all. I was amazed how a number of them thought that it was perfectly OK to conduct quite loud conversations with each other during the prayers.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
And how about those who chew gum? Those who snore? Those who sing out of tune? The physically challenged who grunt at inappripriate times? Why.don't.they.all.leave.so.I.don't.have.to.listen.to.them(tm)!
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Dear The Riv,
Perhaps you could have a word with the church leaders, and organise a creche for the babies and the toddlers?
I'm not sure that handing distressed babies to other church members, to be taken out, is a good idea. A baby wants his/her mother or father.
In a creche, the mother and father could take turns to be with junior, and test the waters, over time, to see when the child is happy to be with the Creche workers, without the parents being present.
Personally, I do not think that a church service, is an appropriate place for a baby or a young child. They have specific needs, and the church should provide for those needs, instead of expecting unreasonable standards of behaviour, fom a young child, in a situation, he/she doesn't understand, coz they're not old enough.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
Babies in church can be a real problem for some people. When mine were tiny I used to take bottles and toys to keep them amused and then when they were weaned I would bribe them with biscuits during the quieter parts of the service. I always thought they were pretty good but some people would glare if they so much as burped during a prayer.
Screaming babies are a hard one. I've always found that the best thing is to ask nicely for a cuddle of the baby and take him/her for a walk and look at the stained glass or candles etc. Not everyone is going to let a stranger have the baby but most will gladly had the bundle of joy over. This allows mum to chill out and allows me to cuddle a tiny baby.
My own children were at their worst when they were toddlers. They were so familiar with the building and the atmosphere that they wanted to go round and say hello to everyone or sit up in the Lady Chapel and make faces at the choir. It took a lot of biscuits and favourite toys/books to keep them reasonably quiet.
Although many people were hostile to their presence in church I always felt that we have a right to be there as long as the noise levels are not disruptive. The problem is that my idea of disruptive and other peoples can be very different.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hull Hound
Shipmate
# 2140
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Posted
If it helps, if I feel disturbed by children with responsible adults then it is my problem, if I am disturbed by children with irresonsible adults it is their problem. I'm on the Clapham omnibus as I write.
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ahhh ... Bisto!
Posts: 1167 | From: Hull | Registered: Jan 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
So, how do you judge the parents as responsible or irresponsible? In a loving considerate manner, I hope?
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
OK, The Riv, now for my disclaimer. I'm not so crazy about babies, spend not much time with them, and have none of my own -- and none to follow. So you can imagine what direction this is about to head in.
To me, the heart of the matter is Poppy's observation that what's disruptive to someone like me is quite different from what's disruptive to a parent who's gotten used to chronic chaos.
Here's how I understand the social contract. As a non-propagator, I agree to:
- Financially subsidize public education and various social welfare programs benefiting children;
- Support financially and in other ways services for children whose parents aren't able to care for them properly;
- Behave graciously when I deal with youngsters personally;
- Work longer hours because my co-worker needs to slip out by 5:30 to pick the kid up at day care;
- Leave on a week-long business trip with three hours' notice because all hell broke lose in Parsippany, but X can't clean up the mess because he has children and therefore isn't expected to travel; and
- Do the work of two with no additional compensation because Y is on her third six-month maternity leave in five years.
In return, I expect the following of parents: - Kindly step out of the room if the screaming reaches banshee level in church, at the theater, or in another public place; and
- Remember that you knowingly and voluntarily chose to take on the very difficult job of raising a child, so don't expect me to shoulder your responsibilities for you or -- absent serious illness or other calamity -- reorder my life for your convenience or the convenience of your children.
Some brainiac at my church recently suggested that the people without kids take over the responsibility for running the nursery during church services. Yeah, when people with kids return the favor by coming over to my house to wash my car and do my laundry. I'm glad we have that all cleared up.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Presleyterian: you go, girl. ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I'm glad we have that all cleared up.
And Merry Christmas to you, too!
You are so hard done by. I really feel sorry for you. Do you think raising kids is easier than your job? Do you think our day ends when we leave work? No. It gets harder and much more important.
I promise that I will raise my children to love others so that they look after people like you (i.e. those with no children) in your old age when you are utterly incapable of looking out for yourself. Perhaps they will become the nurses who change your clothes and bed. Perhaps they will be the doctors who give you a lung transplant. Perhaps they will be the police officers who protect you and your assets. Perhaps they will be the government workers who make sure you get your old age security cheques. Perhaps they will be the piano player who entertains you at the old folks home. Perhaps they will be the clergymen who preside at your funeral. Perhaps...
You get the picture.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
What IS your problem, sharkshooter?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
oh fa' crying out loud, this is not a 'breeder vs non-breeder" issue. crying kids should be taken out of church and whatever is making them miserable enough to cry like that taken care of! i'm sorry, but personally i think its irresponsible parenting for parents to let a baby cry on without trying to take care of the problem. i certainly never did with mine, thankyouverymuch.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
I have a problem with people who will judge parents as irresponsible but fail to try to help out when it is obvious what they need is some help.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
so what am i supposed to do, get out of the choir stall in the middle of the service, wander across the alter, and take over someone elses parenting job? yeah, right.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Oh please, sharkshooter, that is so lame. If I've got my nieces or nephew with me and they start squawking, the first thing I do is take them outside.
If you think other people should be subjected to your kids screaming because you can't be bothered to show some consideration for everyone else, I am damn glad you live way the hell up in Canada. Stay there.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Hull Hound
Shipmate
# 2140
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
So, how do you judge the parents as responsible or irresponsible? In a loving considerate manner, I hope?
By riding on the Clapham omnibus.
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ahhh ... Bisto!
Posts: 1167 | From: Hull | Registered: Jan 2002
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
Im all for having kids in church, it's great and they can make it more fun ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
However, when they start constantly screaming, and putting people of worship, prayers, sermons etc then there is a conflict of interest.
The best churches i have found transmit the service into the creche through the sound system, meaning that the parent / friend who takes the child out does not miss out on anything.
We should not have a go at people whose kids make a noise, at least they are brining them along to church - would you rather they stayed at home??
quote:
I have a problem with people who will judge parents as irresponsible but fail to try to help out when it is obvious what they need is some help.
But grabbing a kid of a parent in the middle of a service might not help - the child will be more upset as it is being handed over to a stranger. We should dupport, and offer help and facilities to small children, otherwise there is the danger that the parents will feel unwanted.
tom
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Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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seadog
Shipmate
# 2931
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I have a problem with people who will judge parents as irresponsible but fail to try to help out when it is obvious what they need is some help.
Well, thank you, and I don't think that view really deserves the good cuffing you seem to be getting. As someone who doesn't attend a church as I find it impossible to listen or take part in the worship with 2 pre-school children in tow, I would definitely appreciate some help (my spouse is not a Christian before anyone suggests it should be him). I think Ottawa might be a teensy bit too far for us to travel to come to your church though .
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A good landing is a succession of errors rapidly corrected.
Posts: 433 | From: Isle of Wight, UK | Registered: Jun 2002
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Clay_Pigeon
Mathematics
# 2516
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Posted
Unless you REALLY knew the family well, I could imagine several parents being pretty nervous about handing over their child to someone who offered to take him/her because "Well, we are in church after all."
Just stepping in and offering to help is great when moving furniture.....handling a child though is a much more delicate emotional minefield.
Then again, I spend half of my time being paranoid, and the after half imagining how everyone else is as paranoid as I am.
-troy
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THAT'S IT! NOW I'M PISSED!. You're so off my prayer list.
-Was Once Troy
Posts: 599 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Mar 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
ChristinaMarie & Presleyterian both said it better than I could. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
As an overly doting Aunt of 4 kidlets, I expect everyone in the world to handle kids the way my brother & his wife do.
1. Restaurant-one kidlet acts up and does not behave? Out to the car with dad, mom or an aunt or uncle.
2. Church-screaming child taken out ASAP of church service
3. Parents want together time at fancy restaurant? One of us babysits 4 kids (only 3 people in there area who are willing to do this, my mom, other brother and me)
4. A kid acts up in mall/store? Threatened to leave or taken out to car.
I took my niece (8 year old) to a little girl's tea. She started making firing ranges out the little bears on top of drinking cups and getting another little girl involved. It was darn funny but I had to make her behave (this is a tea party for pete's sake) and she would not obey me...so I told her "if you do not stop this instant, I am taking you home RIGHT NOW!" she stopped! She knows I mean business since I do follow through.
When the kids were babies, they were just removed.
Another thing is at my church, we have a nursery and Sunday School made up of members of the church. We all rotate and get about one Sunday every month and a half. We get to pick the age too. We have a pretty small church but still this works out pretty good. If a baby will not calm down, someone discreetly goes into church and yanks away a parent.
I think singles' getting stuff piled on them since "you are single and have no life" blows. It is unfortunately a very ingrained prejudice. Unorganized managers who are lazy just don't want to find better ways to accomodate people's schedules. As an aunt and being sucked into a lot of activity with my brother's kids (since I am in love with the little guys even though half the time I want to tear my hair out), I still find it repelent when the world wants people to put up with their screaming child. Sometimes the child is so overtired, all he/she wants is to sleep and the dang parent refuses to put the kid down but keep him/her up, giving everyone in the place a migraine.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
If a baby is really acting up in church then surely it is more helpful to the parent to go up and offer some help than to just glare at them and hope they will go away. I've gone up to parents with screaming babies and it turned out that they were worried about feeding their babies in church and all it needed to get the noise levels down was an 'it's ok to feed them' or 'would you like me to go and warm up a bottle.'
There is a hard core in my church who resent any noise made by children and babies. You have to be pretty tough minded to take small children into some services. That's tough when you feel a need to be connected to God yet have to run the gauntlet of tutting and glaring from the congregation.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
If a baby is really acting up in church then surely it is more helpful to the parent to go up and offer some help than to just glare at them and hope they will go away.
And the parent can't get up off their butt and take the kid outside because...?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
for that matter, the kids screaming cause it hungry, and the parent can't give it a bottle? talk about irresponsible parenting!
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
I don't often feel smug about my own church (though it's a very good church) but I do think we have worked this issue out pretty well.
Babies are welcome in the service and tiny babies usually stay in. But if people want they can be taken into the side vestry, which has the service piped through. There is also a creche except on family service days for older babies and toddlers and this is run on a rota basis. At a family service anything goes and the congregation expects and tolerates quite a bit of noise from the little ones. But at other times, it seems to be the case that if the babes start to make a noise, then they get taken out for a while.
As someone who has been through the experience of coping with a very difficult toddler in church in the past and is now starting out again with baby 2-ply, I actually agree with the "Take them out" camp. In theory at least. In practice, it can be very difficult to accept that this is the best thing to do when you are chronically tired and desparate for some worship and teaching. In my case, having a non church-going husband only adds to the stress here.
When you are in the middle of that phase of parenting, it can feel like you will never escape it. So while it might not be practical to physically help with someone's children during a service, people should at least offer sympathy, understanding (and some decent toys in the vestry )
BK
Posts: 903 | From: The Wool Basket | Registered: Mar 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
ok, something else i don't understand, busyknitter, not singling you out, because other people have said similar... where only one parent is church going, why bring the baby at all? the other parent can keep the kid happy at home!
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
As a parent of a confirmed screamer (not hungry, not tired, not wet, "just colic") I know how hard it can be. We are presuming in this discussion there is an outside one can go to, for one thing - not just a freezing car park in the rain?
I am all for parents taking children outside if they're noisy. But sometimes you just can't. You have to be on the bus because you're picking up another child, for example. Or child one is reading a prayer and will cry his heart out if you're not watching...
And anyone who has not had a screamer has no idea how truly soul-destroying it can be, especially when those who look after nieces and nephews for the odd day tell you it's all in how you handle them. Yeah, right. Have one of your own, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week THEN come back and tell me that...
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Still don't see how having to take care of a screamer 24/7 exempts one from the common courtesy of removing a screaming child.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I'm not sure the answer to screaming babies in the congregation during worship is expecting the single/and/or childless people to deal with it, while the parents sit back and enjoy child-free bliss. So many Sunday schools I know are inundated by kiddies dropped off by parents who are very happy to utilize the free hour and a half baby-sitting service, with no reciprocal 'what can we do' for the church who provides it.
Though having said that I love babies and children and if I had the chance I'd be happy to spend my 'worship' time colouring in and chatting away to a three-year old, tucked away in a creche area, or the Sunday school room!
My initial response is guided by my college experience of where the student common room was often used as an unsupervised creche and playroom by some parents, who spotting a student taking a cup of java or a newspaper to have a quiet read would send their offspring over to the common room, while they had a quiet two hours at home.
Apart from the obvious Child Protection Act difficulties, this was probably a little unfair on the unsuspecting - and not always single - student who suddenly found themselves 'responsible' for someone else's children.
It's good that parents have a break from their kids (so my mother tells me!) but it probably needs to be well organized, beyond the 'let the single people cope with it' approach.
As a minister, I mind the noise that kids make in church much less than the congregation, generally. Even when I'm sermonizing or praying etc. And we're fortunate to have a big enough building for parents to go walkabout with noisy kids, without being too much of a distraction.
I do feel very sad when I see the disapproving scowls, and hear the tuts and complaints of some people towards parents and their babies. We are meant to be some kind of a family after all. But it does happen sometimes that some parents or guardians really don't know what they can and can't do once they're through the church doors, and the thought of moving to the back of church, or going to another room or outside is equally as embarrassing as sitting there while the storm rages. We need to make sure our provision for kiddies is
a) actually there in place and accessibly so and
b) we're just that little bit more friendly and accepting than we might otherwise choose to be if it were a perfect world!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
for that matter, the kids screaming cause it hungry, and the parent can't give it a bottle? talk about irresponsible parenting!
You are assuming the child isn't breast-feeding, and that everyone in the church is fine with public breast-feeding.
Babies cry. It is part of life in a society that includes children. If you are lucky enough that you don't have to deal with it in real life, spend your service thanking God for that fact. Get over yourselves. Worship is part of real life. It is not a concert!
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
look, i too have no problem with kids being kids. rustling papers as they color or draw, crunching snacks, whispered comments, fine, no problem.
but theres a big differece between that and what was specified in the op, a parent who lets their kid scream unendingly during the service. thats a BIG problem.
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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, chukovsky, it's nice to see that you, at least, don't suffer from ADD, and require a long period of quiet in order to worship properly. I avoid family services because I know that I can expect children to be there, and acting up. However, if there are children running around and screaming in the middle of other services, there is no fucking point to my being there, as I CANNOT CONCENTRATE AT ALL. I might as well not even show up.
So once again: church is for the families. Single people can piss off.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
i breast fed. i carried a bottle of breast milk in case of emergencies and no private place to feed.
hungry babies need to be fed. if the baby can't be bottle-fed for whatever reason, then all the MORE reason to take the kid out, find a private place and FEED it!
or for that matter, breast feed right there! i have no problem with that.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Anna B
Shipmate
# 1439
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Posted
As the mother of a five-month-old with an extraordinary pair of lungs, I find I am in sympathy with those who would prefer that the little darlings stay at home. I must say, though, that I find the hateful looks so often directed at screaming children to be un-Christian as well as ineffective.
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Bad Christian (TM)
Posts: 3069 | From: near a lot of fish | Registered: Oct 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
For some reason, it is wedding where parents sit there, content, with a big dopey smile on their face while Junior baby screams his lungs out. I have sat through 3 weddings like this recently (in the last 2 years). It was unreal! I got a headahce each time.
I think if I ever get married, I won't mind kids coming, but I would beg some men to discreetly escort out into the lobby. I was at one church that did this and I wanted to kiss that man's feet. The mom looked very angry but did leave with screaming baby.
I am an aunt of a past screamer, my nephew. He screamed so much that the police were called one night. (In case you are wondering, the cops finally left after quizzing everyone). His weary parents would remove him from any place where he screamed. Because I saw this, I just don't "get" parents who think they have a right to disrupt everyone's worship/wedding/event.
A babbling infant is one thing, an overtired crying and/or screaming child is another.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
It's one thing to pitch in in the face of the unexpected -- illness, the loss of a job, a family emergency, or the like. What I'm talking about are parents who look upon "help" as some sort of entitlement when the predictable tantrum or hunger pangs happen. And even worse, when they expect me to feel privileged for the honor of "helping."
Despite what Hilary Clinton may say, it doesn't take a village to raise a child. It takes parents willing to live up to the responsibility they took on when they conceived the child in the first place.
I'm not at all suggesting that parenthood is easy. Obviously it's not. That's one of the reasons that I've declined to take on that responsibility. But people who have children agree to care for those kids around the clock for a minimum of eighteen years. And they make that decision freely and voluntarily. All I ask is that they live up to that responsibility without feeling that they have a right to bind me to a contract that I never signed.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
nicolemrw, you ask why busyknitter's non-churchgoing partner cannot babysit. It may be that he WILL NOT oblige for church. Seadog has made a similar comment in an earlier post and in my past experince the atheistical Sponsa Amabilis flatly refused to mind an unweaned, untoilet-trained infant while I went off to what he descibed as "your Popish fripperies". This is a common game played by heathen spice(?) and is used to bring recalcitrant wives to heel i.e. make sure the recalcitrant one cannot get a life of her own.
There are a whole lot of reasons why parents with squallers do not get up and leave straightaway. There is always the hope that one can pacify the kid with the tit or bottle (if that way inclined). I used to arrive with scarf (to place strategically over exposed boz) and just latch the kid on. Sung Masses were a bonus because of the competition factor of the choir. The downside of Cathedral services is they tend to attract the nutters such as the bearded gent who poked me between the shoulderblades and ordered me to stop breastfeeding in church (he was told most emphatically to f*** off). Another factor in a crowded church is the sheer impossibility of getting out the door if the place is packed to the rafters; I once had a horrid experience during a Good Friday liturgy when my firstborn went berserk during the General Intercessions ;I was miles away from an exit and it would have involved (literally) stepping over bodies.
Obviously a creche or a sound-proofed side room is the answer; my parish has the former, which is mainly staffed by stalwart parents. I must admit I hated leaving my very small kids there during the 10-30 am Mass and only did so out of a sense of duty; the alternative was to attend the 8 am Mass with a freshly fed and changed baby who would (consequently) be in a good mood.
As for the starers, tutters and other general pains in the arse , well, stuff'em. There are plenty of child-unfriendly churches and /or services they can attend.
Finally , I must tell you posters that you are lucky you never encountered the late Michel Casey. Case was a Northern Irishman who was sent to the colonies immediately after his ordination. He was for many years the parish priest of Queanbeyan (a little town just outside of Canberra) and later at Yass (on the other side of Canberra). Case would not tolerate screaming kids during Mass and was known to stop (in the middle of the Tridentine mass), turn around and tell the parent in question to remove the child if it would not shut up. To his credit, he installed a sound-proofed side room in the parish church at Yass and was most pissed off when it was not used at all times. He once electrified the parishioners when he commented from the pulpit that he was fed up with those who brought their screamers to church (as he put it)"to show off their fertility"!!!
Well, he is long gone and I do wonder if he did a short stretch in Purgatory surrounded by screaming kids, before being promoted to glory (in the company of the Holy Innocents, one hopes).
cheers all,
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
quote:
ok, something else i don't understand, busyknitter, not singling you out, because other people have said similar... where only one parent is church going, why bring the baby at all? the other parent can keep the kid happy at home!
fair question nicolemrw. We did discuss this the other day. Trouble is, mr. BK's day job is looking after the baby while I am at work and I want to look after him at the weekends. It would also cause trouble with my older child, who would resent being "dragged" to church while baby brother got to stay at home.
quote:
Babies cry. It is part of life in a society that includes children. If you are lucky enough that you don't have to deal with it in real life, spend your service thanking God for that fact. Get over yourselves. Worship is part of real life. It is not a concert!
Chukovsky
However, people have to display a degree of common courtesy and be sensitive to the occasion. Couldn't agree more with Duchess about weddings and other special services. The very worst experience that I had with my older son was when he was 18months old and we had moved to a new town. We turned up at our new church for the very first time not knowing anyone, to find that it was the dedication service for their new curate who had just been ordained deacon. I was so desperate to be part of the service (the previous 6 months had been very unsettling) but the little guy would have none of it. No choice but to take him out and i ended up in tears in the vestry
BK
ps note Wool Basket is in UK. Note also that this post is written at 03.15GMT. aah, the joys of sleep training! ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posts: 903 | From: The Wool Basket | Registered: Mar 2002
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
I do recall that when Moses came down with the commandments the babies all just hushed immediately in recognition of the importance of the occasion. Why can't modern children be more like that?
I recall an embarrassed mother feeling relieved after several of the dear Swedish ladies came up to her after service, saying "This was a dying church. We haven't had a baby crying in here for seventeen years."
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Actually, logician, those babies hushed because of the time-honoured Jewish custom of stuffing a wine-soaked gauze into their infant mooshesat important moments (like how else does the mohel do his dastardly work without anaesthesia?)
cheers,
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
My sympathies to those with difficult babies and toddlers. That phase of childhood is one reason I'm thank God I'm single (even though for many years I desparately wanted to be married).
Nevertheless, I'm with Presleyterian, Erin, and others: having children does not give one the right to inflict them on others who came to church to worship, not to listen to crying babies and incessant noise makers. Crying babies and noisy toddlers should be taken out.
At the same time, there needs to be a nursery and/or a "crying room" with the service piped in. I'm glad to say my church has both. And I'm glad to say that from time to time the church bulletin makes it clear noisy children are to taken out of the service, a rule both well complied with and well accomodated.
There needs to be consideration both for people with small children and those without.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
This could only be hell. I am astounded by the lack of understanding and support for those of us who had/have difficult children.
Having somewhere to go with them is good - I spent years arriving late to church, sitting in the creche with assorted droolers (and their children), taking communion and leaving. I kept going but it was a scarey and marginalising time. The worst experience of all was going to a special family service where my son started running around and screaming - there was nowhere to go and sit quietly so I could only take him home. Miserable and alienating.
Be more tolerant.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Aig wrote: quote:
I am astounded by the lack of understanding and support for those of us who had/have difficult children.
In the immortal words of SuperChicken, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."
My problem is that the tolerance only seems to go in one direction. When a child's screams fill the sanctuary -- and as Nicole pointed out, we're not talking about kids who talk quietly or snack or color or fidget around in the pew -- the thought process of the parent who refuses to step outside even for a moment goes something like this:
Yes, I know that my child's screams are breaking the concentration of 500 people trying to worship in the sanctuary, drowning out the words of a pastor who spent days crafting a sermon, and destroying the hard work of a choir that practiced for hours. But I've gotten used to it by now, don't feel like taking responsibility for the care of my colicky child, and can't to be bothered to step outside on the rare occasion when the kid gets out of control. So the rest of you can just go to hell because my personal worship experience is more important than yours.
So who's intolerant and unchristian?
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
Actually, the thought process of a parent with a colicky child goes "Fire bad, tree pretty", to quote Buffy! One is incapable of rational thought after constant noise and sleep deprivation, as torturers the world over know!
I am absolutely with those who don't like crying children. Nor do I. If they are in restaurants, private services/occasions etc., they should be removed. If they are running around in supermarkets and shopping malls, they should be restrained.
They are, however, part of the body of Christ. So far as I recall, Christ himself reprimanded those who tried to stop children approaching him - 'The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these'.
I certainly stuck to 'child-friendly' services whilst mine were small. I still do now, to be honest, though they are well-behaved and sing in the choir. All I'm saying is: sometimes there is nothing you can do. You just have to be somewhere unsuitable, and the child is playing up. After all, the child holds all the aces - it doesn't care how much noise it makes, you do. It knows you daren't smack it in a public place, or half the child-haters will instantly turn into child-defenders and phone social services! Oh, and if you don't smack the child the other half will tell you it's all down to modern child rearing methods...!
There are some bloody stupid adults out there who invite you to weddings, funerals etc., get all offended when you say you can't come because you have a horrible, screamy child (who won't feed for anyone else) and then when you do bring it (at their insistance) glare at you the whole time!
There, that's done me the world of good - back to the season of goodwill. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
So once again: church is for the families. Single people can piss off.
Church is for EVERYONE. Including screaming babies, and their parents.
I am single and don't have kids. If or when I do, I really hope that I and they are not relegated to a "soundproof room"... I do some of my work in one and there are few things more claustrophobic and alienating than knowing no-one can hear you. How on earth is that being part of a service? I go to church to worship and participate, not listen. I might as well stay at home and listen to a tape if I'm not going to be allowed to participate.
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This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Beethoven
Ship's deaf genius
# 114
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Posted
Time to add my tuppen'orth. I will start by stating my credentials (for anyone who doesn't know!) - I am the mother of a 1-year old. She attends church every Sunday (although not normally with me any more for totally unconnected reasons!), and although generally well-behaved, like all small children she can have her moments
My tolerance level for her noise varies according to which church we're in (i.e. whether it's the local church where she's a regular and people are used to her occasional bits of 'chatting', singing etc., or whether it's one that she doesn't often attend) and whereabouts in the service we are. Personally I try to keep her as silent as possible through the Eucharistic Prayer, Intercessions and Sermon, and reasonably quiet for the rest. However, the uncontrollable screaming referred to in the OP is always the cue to take her out. We're very fortunate though - that doesn't happen too often. Strangely, I don't find other babies crying too distracting, as long as I can still hear the service. Once it drowns out the service, then yes, I have a problem with it.
I suppose, IMHO the guideline should be - if the child is distrubing the rest of the congregation, it's time to leave. I know that can mean the parents have to leave the service, too, but it seems to me that it just is not fair on everyone else to stay. For all that it may be the parents' only chance in the week to attend a church service, it may be for other people in the congregation too.
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Who wants to be a rock anyway?
toujours gai!
Posts: 1309 | From: Here (and occasionally there) | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
So once again: church is for the families. Single people can piss off.
Church is for EVERYONE. Including screaming babies, and their parents.
I am single and don't have kids. If or when I do, I really hope that I and they are not relegated to a "soundproof room"... I do some of my work in one and there are few things more claustrophobic and alienating than knowing no-one can hear you. How on earth is that being part of a service? I go to church to worship and participate, not listen. I might as well stay at home and listen to a tape if I'm not going to be allowed to participate.
So you really, honest-to-God think that everyone else should have to put up with a screaming child? I don't get this mindset at all. If your child is screaming uncontrollably, how on earth can you NOT take the kid out of the situation? God, that is not only rude as hell to everyone else, but cruel to the child, too. Obviously the child is unhappy/tired/ill/whatever, so your solution is to hell with it, I'm here and I'm staying? Sheesh, I'm glad you people weren't my parents.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
We just need to be sensible about this
quote:
I really hope that I and they are not relegated to a "soundproof room"... I do some of my work in one and there are few things more claustrophobic and alienating than knowing no-one can hear you. How on earth is that being part of a service? I go to church to worship and participate, not listen. I might as well stay at home and listen to a tape if I'm not going to be allowed to participate.
You can out the service through speakers into the sound proof room. Tis means that the parents, or whoever takes the child out, still gets the sermon, worship etc while the child can be calmed down. When they have calmed down why not go back and sit in the back.
Everyone should be welcome at church, and if everyone thought of others, and not themselves first it would be fine. Isnt that a major part of christianity!
If we have respect for others positions we'll be fine - parents might realise that their child cna be a bit disruptive, and others will realise that there is not much you can do when a kid is screaming blue murder.
tom
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My allotment blog
Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Sheesh, I'm glad you people weren't my parents.
Erin, my angel, I don't think that many people on this board would want to take on THAT particular challenge!
Hugs,
AngRasc
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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