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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Control of racism, how far is too far?
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Robert Porter-Miller
Tiocfaidh Separabit
# 1459
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Posted
Surely there are minority groups within the USA - as Moth alluded to that do not feel the police force is unbiased / non-racial / non-sectarian.
The Rodney King affair must surely have had some detrimental effect on the public perceptions of racial prejudice within the police force. At least within LA if nowhere else.
Admittedly you are innocent until proven guilty, but what checks can you use to ensure that the police force is above reproach - as it should be (very utopian / unicorn / teapot attitude I know).
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?
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It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away - Bono and the boys
Let's all "Release Some Tension"
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?
Having a person who practiced racial discrimination patrolling South Central would be a very bad idea indeed. Period. No need to delve into political or social affiliations.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?
Having a person who practiced racial discrimination patrolling South Central would be a very bad idea indeed. Period. No need to delve into political or social affiliations.
Having a person who presented themselves publically as racist - for instance by telling racist jokes or calling people racist names - patrolling South Central would also be a very bad idea indeed, I imagine. In practical terms even if not ethical. Even if that person was not actually racist at all.
None of us are claiming to be able to see inside people's minds. We are saying what we have said from the beginning, that someone who chooses to present themselves as racist should be treated as such - not a fit person to police a multicultural society.
Rat
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
We have a right to EXPECT them to believe in a certain way.
<<SNIP>>
I can believe whatthefuckever I want to believe and you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to expect me to believe any differently.
Worst Case Scenario
...unless, of course, you want to be a police officer, teacher, politician. hmmm... come to think of it, maybe you shouldn't be a farmer either.
As a farmer you would be free to tamper with food at the source, and could easily inject DNA specific viruses into your live stock and produce, injury and killing many of the minority races. Of course, to get a DNA specific virus, you would need a racist scientists. So we better monitor them too.
As we can see, there will be few jobs available for you if you are going to hold a view or opinion that differs from what the government and all the good citizens believe. So you will probably end up homeless.
We can't have a bunch of homeless radicals running around loose, now can we?
Or, best case scenario: It takes a very long time to get to that point.
NP
[If you're going to try to be fancy by using UBB, at least check it you stupid cattlefucker.]
[ 06. November 2003, 17:04: Message edited by: RooK ]
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?
Having a person who practiced racial discrimination patrolling South Central would be a very bad idea indeed. Period. No need to delve into political or social affiliations.
I think it would be worse for him than the good citizens of South Central. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
NP
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Robert Porter-Miller
Tiocfaidh Separabit
# 1459
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?
Having a person who practiced racial discrimination patrolling South Central would be a very bad idea indeed. Period. No need to delve into political or social affiliations.
However if the community were to find out that a klansman who was a member of the police was patrolling their neighbourhood surely then there is an issue?
The perception the black community has of a policeman with klan membership patrolling within their community may be the same perception that a Catholic community in Northern Ireland has of a policeman who happens to be a member of the orange order patrolling their neighbourhood.
It may be an unjustified prejudice because they can in fact do their job without prejudice and impartially, but it is still real. What are we going to do - have open days within these organizations to try and patch up community differences and show how tolerant they really are and that you can be confident in their ability?
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It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away - Bono and the boys
Let's all "Release Some Tension"
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Wood has already pointed out that he meant Behaviour and not belief.................
So, an extreme racist who thinks Blacks and Asains are scum, that they have no right to be in the country in the first place, who thinks they are probably criminals because they are black, who thinks black people "smell funny" and depreciates both their human dignity and human worth, who thinks blacks are less evolved than whites and less intelligent than whites and less civilised than whites may still be ideal police material?
Good Grief.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
I can't ignore the buzzing from my Going Around In Circles Sensor any more, so I'm just going to state my position clearly one more time and then let it lie.
First point - Racism is a bad thing. A government that interferes with the people's freedoms of association, speech, or thought is a far worse thing. As Presleyterian eloquently pointed out, racism is limited by "the moral bankruptcy of their political beliefs when forced to compete in the marketplace of ideas." Since though policing suppresses the marketplace of ideas, it is not similarly constrained.
Second point - It is wrong to discipline employees on the sole basis of their beliefs, associations, or the actions of their peers. People should be judged on their actions, not what we think their future actions might be.
That's all. If it bothers you, just be glad you have a different system where you live.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Sorry about that redundant mess I left above. Not sure at what I was getting. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
So, if through the haze I can try to get this straight, actions don't speak louder than words. Words predispose our actions? Or, is it that words expose what our actions mean, regardless of when they're words opposite of what we do? This is, of course, in the context of someone being known to have claimed certain beliefs. What about those who are privately hiding them, or lie about holding such views? If they consistently act 'rightly', against their privately held, unsavory views, are they not fit to serve? What you don't know can hurt you, sure, but not if those who DO know don't act on their knowledge (of themselves).
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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Liam
Shipmate
# 4961
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
First point - Racism is a bad thing. A government that interferes with the people's freedoms of association, speech, or thought is a far worse thing. As Presleyterian eloquently pointed out, racism is limited by "the moral bankruptcy of their political beliefs when forced to compete in the marketplace of ideas."
At the risk of continuing the circle... Bullshit. We currently have a police force which has been found to be institutionally racist, and evidence that black and Asian people are routinely treated differently from white people by some police officers. A culture where racist language and jokes are tolerated makes it easier for this to continue. Racism is NOT limited by its moral bankruptcy when people with repellent attitudes are allowed to hold positions of power over those they hate.
People are being wrongly imprisoned, victimised in their daily lives, and even killed because we live in a culture where racist language and ideas are allowed air and even propagated in the mass media. This isn't just a philosophical argument - this is a real problem that has to be addressed. Looking very carefully at the attitudes and culture which dominate in our legal system would seem to me to be a very good start.
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
Telling a racist joke IS an action.
Joining a racist political party IS an action.
We have a right to demand that public employees, who are employed to administer the law 'without fear or favour', to refrain from these actions because they are destructive to the public peace and to the reputation of the police force.
That's it, I'm out of this too - if I say the same thing over again once more my head will turn all the way round and explode.
Rat
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
First point - Racism is a bad thing. A government that interferes with the people's freedoms of association, speech, or thought is a far worse thing.
You're white aren't you?
I'm being facetious. A little bit. On what grounds do you make that assumption?
Is it preferable to have a government that's really quite racist but otherwise libertarian to a government which, say, doesn't allow Neo-nazis to serve as police officers but which has flawless race relations?
Using, for the sake of argument, Uncle Jeremy Bentham's Felicific Calculator (aka the case of the greatest good for the greatest number) I think that it would be difficult, in terms of outcomes, to conclusively demonstrate that a police force which allows its members to be members of the KKK/BNP is always better for society than a police force which doesn't.
The basis of this pond war, so it appears to this Brit, is that US shipmates (and Alaric) generally see liberty as an absolute good which must never ever be interfered with. British shipmates see liberty as a good which has to co-exist with a range of other goods such as equality, social cohesion, justice et. al.
So the problem with this thread and the Phelps thread and all the other threads which have US and British shipmates shouting "Facist" and "Anarchist at each other (not that I would ever do such a thing of course )is that like Sydney Smith's fishwives, we are arguing from different premises.
The question we need to be asking is "should freedom have the absolute status is has in US society? Is it always wrong to restrict freedom? and if so why?"
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Of course the question could equally be phrased "Do Brits pay too high a price for social cohesion" or whatever. I'm not suggesting that the US have a monopoly on unexamined assumptions.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Hold on to your hat. What follows is an earth-shattering declaration: I don't much like kids.
There. I've said it. I go out of my way to live in an apartment that is de facto adults only. If I have a choice in a restaurant, I sit as far away as possible from table with kids. I don't usually invite my friends' children to my house. I generally decline invitations to "bring the whole family" social events. I vocally oppose tax policies that favor breeders and vote against politicians who pander to "children's interests." And those who have been on the boards for a while will remember some of my screamin'-babies-in-church diatribes.
And yet....
I've never physically harmed a child. I've never even spoken harshly to a child -- which is more than most of you kid lovers can claim. In emergency situations when I've had to tend to friends' children for extended periods of time, I've fed them, protected them, and cared for them. And if you ask the average seven-year-old what they think of their acquaintance Presleyterian, I daresay you'll get a glowing report of a slightly madcap Auntie Mame type who: 1) lets them drink apple juice out of highball glasses with an orange slice and maraschino cherry; 2) improves their math skills by teaching them to double down the house when playing Texas Hold 'Em; and 3) gives them feather boas and leather flasks on their eighth birthday. Which is why I agree with Scot that the sole emphasis should be on conduct, not belief.
As others have raised on this thread, there are a good number of Christians who belong to denominations that teach a rigid view of male headship that I find deplorable. Does it concern me that a police officer who is, say, a Southern Baptist might allow those views to enter into how he handles a domestic violence call? Sure. But am I willing to say that out of sensitivity to women, a Southern Baptist shouldn't be allowed to be a cop? Of course not. If it turns out that his response to a beaten wife is to say "You need to learn to submit to your husband as leader of the household," fire his ass. But base it on his actions, not his thoughts or affiliations.
[ 06. November 2003, 16:14: Message edited by: Presleyterian ]
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
But I still think that joining the BNP is a matter of conduct and not merely of belief.
And with that, I bow out also. This circular pond war is boring even me.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I don't much like kids.
A paedophobe in our midst! Repent of your intolerance, or you will be thrown into the pit of fire until you see the error of your evil ways. You should not be allowed to spew such hatred of kids on this web-site, you heathen!
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
quote:
I've never physically harmed a child. I've never even spoken harshly to a child -- which is more than most of you kid lovers can claim. In emergency situations when I've had to tend to friends' children for extended periods of time, I've fed them, protected them, and cared for them. And if you ask the average seven-year-old what they think of their acquaintance Presleyterian, I daresay you'll get a glowing report of a slightly madcap Auntie Mame type who: 1) lets them drink apple juice out of highball glasses with an orange slice and maraschino cherry; 2) improves their math skills by teaching them to double down the house when playing Texas Hold 'Em; and 3) gives them feather boas and leather flasks on their eighth birthday. Which is why I agree with Scot that the sole emphasis should be on conduct, not belief.
This is a somewhat less than compelling analogy. Unless you think that Nazis are really loveable, madcap curmudgeons who, given half a chance, will ply black people with apple juice and play cards with them. In which case it's no wonder you people were two years late for the Second World War.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Except, my dear Professor, that you've commented upon the gravy of Presleyterian's post -- not the meat -- which was the other analogy about the cop who may be a devout Southern Baptist.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
You can't judge people on what you think they might do, only on what they have done.
Like, for, example, expressing racist views.
Yep, from that action we might reasonably judge that the speaker has racist views. However, we could not reasonably say that that person will necessarily be prone to racial discrimation in the course of their professional duties.
You are still trying to defend the idea that we should demand a standard of belief, as opposed to a standard of behavior, from our public officials. That's a appallingly totalitarian position.
Oh, for fuck's sake. NO I AM NOT.
I'M NOT.
I.
AM.
NOT.
It was a typo. I meant "behave"! It's about a standard of behaviour! The "believe" thing was a fucking mistake! A mistake! LIKE I FUCKING SAID!
Can you people not read? Is there something about making a mistake and apologising for it that doesn't apply to me?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Pour some ice in your panties. I wasn't referring to your typo. I was referring to your (and others') arguments throughout the thread. It's not my fault if your slip was freudian.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
There would seem to be room to start a thread on this subject in purgatory.
Nightlamp
Hellhost
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by The Riv:
quote:
Except, my dear Professor, that you've commented upon the gravy of Presleyterian's post -- not the meat -- which was the other analogy about the cop who may be a devout Southern Baptist.
I wouldn't compare Southern Baptists to Nazis either.
Seriously, if I were a battered woman who had phoned the police I might feel quite comfortable if my rescuer turned out to be an old fashioned Southern Baptist who insisted on addressing me as Ma'am and whose sense of chivalry was outraged by the fact that I was sporting a black eye caused by spousal abuse. The fact that I might differ from him over the merits of, say, J.S. Mill's views on the emancipation of women would, I imagine, matter little in comparison. If, on the other hand, I were a member of an ethnic minority who had just suffered a racial assault and my rescuer was wearing a ring with a swastika on it, I doubt that I would feel quite so happy about the beliefs of my rescuer.
I think that there is a reasonable correlation between membership of far-right organisations and violence. That is, as it were, the point of facism. There's a strong correlation at the very least, I would imagine. I would be very surprised indeed if any such correlation existed relating Southern Baptists to domestic violence.
So I don't think that the analogy holds there either. But I plead guilty on picking on the weakest part of Presleyterian's argument for rhetorical effect.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
There would seem to be sufficient hot air to drive a windmill generator on this subject. It would have to be spittle-proof, though.
RooK
Hellhost
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
quote:
Mr. Callan wrote: This is a somewhat less than compelling analogy. Unless you think that Nazis are really loveable, madcap curmudgeons who, given half a chance, will ply black people with apple juice and play cards with them. In which case it's no wonder you people were two years late for the Second World War.
I think the analogy holds, Mr. Callan, although you're correct that I was only slightly serious. That said, beliefs do not inevitably correlate into actions. One can have strong political beliefs that America's borders should be tighter than a burped Tupperware container when it comes to immigration and yet still be perfectly pleasant to ones Brazilian and Vietnamese and British neighbors. (OK, well maybe not them.) One can support a repeal of drug laws and yet not toke up. (Are the teens still using that phrase, by the way?) My point is that the minute "those people" can be excluded because of what they believe -- as opposed to how they behave -- you can be excluded because of what you believe. How would you (using the word generically) like to lose your job because of your membership in that blatantly hateful and homophobic group, the Anglican Community?
On the related topic of "social cohesion" in the UK, I've always found that a pretty laughable concept from a society that grants political power, perks, and prestige to people based on who their great-great-yadda-yadda-grandparents shtupped back in William of Orange's day.
Oh, and as for why "you people were two years late for the Second World War," my people were in Theresienstadt at the time. Sorry they didn't have the opportunity to RSVP their regrets to you and the plucky Mrs. Miniver, but the appropriate social stationery was hard to come by at the time.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
quote:
Oh, and as for why "you people were two years late for the Second World War," my people were in Theresienstadt at the time. Sorry they didn't have the opportunity to RSVP their regrets to you and the plucky Mrs. Miniver, but the appropriate social stationery was hard to come by at the time.
In which case I apologise unreservedly for being unnecessarily offensive.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Thank you, Mr. Callan, although as you might imagine under the circumstances, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the United States was shamefully slow in joining the war.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Telling a racist joke IS an action.
Joining a racist political party IS an action.
Insofar as "tell" and "join" are verbs. But the US (quite rightly, IMFAO) differentiates between words and actions quite clearly.
And Wood, dearie, you need to reacquaint yourself with your own words:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
We have a right to EXPECT them to believe in a certain way.
Shit. Freudian slip. Not "believe". I meant "behave".
How big do I feel?
And, just for you, I hopped on over to m-w.com to find the definition of a Freudian slip:
quote:
Main Entry: Freudian slip
Function: noun
Date: 1953
: a slip of the tongue that is motivated by and reveals some unconscious aspect of the mind
So yeah, you DID mean believe. If you need further help with your English you just let me know.
[ 06. November 2003, 17:35: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
And Wood, dearie, you need to reacquaint yourself with your own words:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
We have a right to EXPECT them to believe in a certain way.
Shit. Freudian slip. Not "believe". I meant "behave".
How big do I feel?
And, just for you, I hopped on over to m-w.com to find the definition of a Freudian slip:
quote:
Main Entry: Freudian slip
Function: noun
Date: 1953
: a slip of the tongue that is motivated by and reveals some unconscious aspect of the mind
So yeah, you DID mean believe. If you need further help with your English you just let me know.
Erin, I love you dearly, but don't ever patronise me this way again.
And don't you DARE ever tell me what I'm thinking and what I mean. I mean what I mean. No more, no less.
I meant behaviour. You want to pretend I'm some sort of evil totalitarian bastard, fine. Just don't expect me to be pleased about it.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
YOU are the one who's all yelling about how words are actions and blah blah blah -- YOU SAID that "believe" was a -- and I QUOTE YOU -- "Freudian slip". Freudian slip, for your information, has a specific definition. It does NOT mean "I didn't mean that". It DOES mean "this is what I ACTUALLY think deep down in my heart of hearts".
Deal with it. And grow the fuck up while you're at it.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
YOU are the one who's all yelling about how words are actions and blah blah blah -- YOU SAID that "believe" was a -- and I QUOTE YOU -- "Freudian slip". Freudian slip, for your information, has a specific definition. It does NOT mean "I didn't mean that". It DOES mean "this is what I ACTUALLY think deep down in my heart of hearts".
Deal with it. And grow the fuck up while you're at it.
So I made another mistake. So I'm sorry about that.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Fine. But don't get all mortally offended when people take your words according to their accepted meaning.
[ 06. November 2003, 18:31: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Oh, great. I bet Erin deliberately transmogrified into the razor-fanged possumivore just to prove my previous statement naive. I also bet Wood was in on it. Both your self-righteous banshee acts don't fool me.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
RooK, you old sweet talker, you. But you and Sarky can breathe a sigh of relief that we managed to scare everyone away from the thread and it can die now. And we won't even charge you for it.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
RooK, you old sweet talker, you. But you and Sarky can breathe a sigh of relief that we managed to scare everyone away from the thread and it can die now. And we won't even charge you for it.
And here was me waiting for tomb to post, as this thread appears to be the current Hellhost party thread
So, to sum up:
Americans (and Alaric) believe one thing.
Brits and Aussies believe something else.
Sharkshooter has made two idiotic posts in Hell today.
Everyone* is bored of going round in circles.
Does anyone have anything new and on topic to contribute before a hellhost kills this sorry excuse for a thread?
Sarkycow, hellhost
*For the purpose of this summary, I'm going to tell you all what to believe: You're all bored of going round in circles.
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
The Canadians were unable to get involved in this discussion because they're apparently all stoned.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Well, some were stoned. The rest were just stuck in American rush hour traffic. They just popped down to say hello, you see. Nothing pressing. Neighborly.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Callan:
This is a somewhat less than compelling analogy. Unless you think that Nazis are really loveable, madcap curmudgeons who, given half a chance, will ply black people with apple juice and play cards with them. In which case it's no wonder you people were two years late for the Second World War.
The majority of German citizens were at one time members of the Nazi party. Yet some card carrying members of the Nazi party actually helped jews and others escape capture. Likewise there are many different people that belong to many different groups for many different reasons.
I find it interesting that the only hate groups mentioned here and railed against are those that "white" people would belong to. Out of curiosity, should we probe as deeply into minority groups and individuals?
NP
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Non-propheteer:
quote:
The majority of German citizens were at one time members of the Nazi party. Yet some card carrying members of the Nazi party actually helped jews and others escape capture. Likewise there are many different people that belong to many different groups for many different reasons.
I find it interesting that the only hate groups mentioned here and railed against are those that "white" people would belong to. Out of curiosity, should we probe as deeply into minority groups and individuals?
NP - my own view is that it is not possible for a member of Her Majesty's Constabulary to do his or her job properly if he or she is a member of a far right organisation. Broadly speaking British shipmates are prepared to work on this assumption, US shipmates (and Alaric) argue that it is unjust to make such an assumption unless we have got hard evidence from the persons behaviour. We say the act of joining the BNP is such an action. You beg to differ. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice. I don't think that either of us are going to find irrefutable knock down arguments that demonstrate conclusively that the other is wrong.
Black racism isn't, at present, a live issue. But I would object equally strongly to commissioning as a police officer a man or woman who held similar views about white people as the BNP do about blacks.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
It is wrong to discipline employees on the sole basis of their beliefs, associations, or the actions of their peers. People should be judged on their actions, not what we think their future actions might be.
That's all.
This is what I believe also. I happen to belive that saying "I hate Pakis" is an action upon which someone can be judged.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Atmospheric Skull
Antlered Bone-Visage
# 4513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
There would seem to be room to start a thread on this subject in purgatory.
If this is in response to my earlier question, then thank you. It would be interesting to get some Purgatorial perspectives on all this.
Given how fed up everyone seems to be with this thread, though, I might wait a few days before starting such a thread myself. If someone else wants to in the meantime, then fair enough.
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Surrealistic Mystic.
Posts: 371 | From: Bristol, UK | Registered: May 2003
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If you need further help with your English you just let me know.
Red.rag.bull.can.open.worms.everywhere.
I think this thread has pretty much proven that Americans and Brits* (apart from Alaric, the ratbastard traitor) are very different.
In the red corner we have absolute freedom of speech, no holds barred kick-em-in-the-bollocks freestyle brawling, and in the blue corner we have freedom of speech as long as it doesn't offend me or talk too loudly in libraries, Marquis of Queensbury rules fisticuffs.
So while you guys might win the fight, you play dirty and we'd rather have cleanly restricted fighting, and lose, than hell-for-leather brawling and win.
It has been most enjoyable, thankyou.
[ * and Eire. Edited because I forgot that there were some Southern Irish people here too, sorry]
[ 07. November 2003, 09:22: Message edited by: IntellectByProxy ]
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
Oooh! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Never been called a 'ratbastard traitor before. And the strange thing is, I'm not offended! (on the assumption that it was said tongue-in-cheek! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
Very ironic to call me that, given the 'dodgy nationalist' tag that ken once used of me. (Where has said ken been on this thread, btw? I would expect to see him here given what he has posted elsewhere. Has he not posted because it would be liable to cause him to explode? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) )
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Did IBP just call me a red?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Robert Porter-Miller
Tiocfaidh Separabit
# 1459
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
[ * and Eire. Edited because I forgot that there were some Southern Irish people here too, sorry]
You've just been oppressing us for so long that we have had to learn to fight by your rules
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It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away - Bono and the boys
Let's all "Release Some Tension"
Posts: 1231 | From: Washington, D.C. | Registered: Oct 2001
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Did IBP just call me a red?
No, I said you were in the red corner. That's a whole different kettle of fish.
Just because you exhibit red behaviour doesn't mean you are red.
Or something like that.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by some bloody colonial:
Oh, great. I bet Erin deliberately transmogrified into the razor-fanged possumivore just to prove my previous statement naive. I also bet Wood was in on it. Both your self-righteous banshee acts don't fool me.
Oh, go pleasure a moose.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bongo:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Of course there are exceptions. They should be dealt with immediately and firmly.
Er, the Lawrence Inquiry found that the entire Metropolitan (Greater London) police force is "institutionally racist."
...and the McCarthy inquiry found Hollywood to be filled with communist pinkos intent on the destruction of the American system. Perhaps we should go less by what other people tell us and ust insist that our civil rights be recognized?
Governments always use fear tactics to talk you into forgoing your privacy and other rights. How, exactly, did they prove the racism?
NP
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Oh, go pleasure a moose.
Ah... the rabid intellectual strikes again. Bloody Colonial must be absolutely seething at this point, probably so much so he cannot respond. Well done, Wood, well done indeed.
NP
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Oh, go pleasure a moose.
Ah... the rabid intellectual strikes again. Bloody Colonial must be absolutely seething at this point, probably so much so he cannot respond. Well done, Wood, well done indeed.
NP
Nurse? NURSE!
Quick! this man's sense of humour has gone into spasm...
No, it's gone.
What's that, you say? Dead for months? Really. Gosh. Shame.
PS. Bloody Colonial - you can have Sven if you like. Although I'm sure you have plenty of choice.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Punctures thread with hostly toasting fork
Well, we've all had our fun. Apart from NP, who's just shown us all how stupid he can be.
Time for this gee-gee to be put down I think.
Sarkycow, the humane hellhost
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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