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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Control of racism, how far is too far?
The Riv
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Are Brit defense attorneys required to think only that their clients are the best quality of all possible people? No different from the rest of society in any regard? How does that one work?

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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams

"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune

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The Riv
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quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
Are Brit defense attorneys required to think only that their clients are the best quality of all possible people? No different from the rest of society in any regard? How does that one work?



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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams

"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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Well, we do appear to enjoying propping up this straw man again and again, don't we?

This is not about thinking someone good, this is not about generating nice feelings or showing that someone is "affirmed" (blech) but about pure and simple common sense. A person who is known to hold racist views, be that from actual words or by actions or by membership of an avowedly racist organisation, is not appropriate as a public appointee in the administration of justice, for the very fact that they are expressly committed to treating persons differently according to their race.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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The Riv
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quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
Are Brit defense attorneys required to think only that their clients are the best quality of all possible people? No different from the rest of society in any regard? How does that one work?


This isn't coming out right... hold on

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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams

"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune

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Atmospheric Skull

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# 4513

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
The point, Wood, is that they generally do treat us all the same regardless of their personal opinions. They do it every day.

I think it's considered pretty well established in Britain in recent years that racist police officers very often don't.

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Surrealistic Mystic.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
The point, Wood, is that they generally do treat us all the same regardless of their personal opinions. They do it every day.

Stephen Lawrence.

No they, don't. It's been proven in court.

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Narcissism.

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Moth

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Let's try another tack.

There is a rule in this country that no-one can be judge in his own cause. So if a judge has a financial interest in the outcome of a case, or knows any of the parties, he must stand down and not try the case.

Now, the judge might in fact be a man of perfect probity who would never allow a personal interest to colour his judgement. But the rule is absolute because justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done. It is not what he does, but what he might be percieved to do which matters. There must be no suspicion of bias.

A police officer is invested with wide-ranging powers. He can arrest people, issue fixed penalties etc. He is supposed to do this fairly, without picking on a group of people for an irrelevant reason. If he is known to hold racist views (and this will be known only if he chooses to express them publicly) justice will not be seen to be done. There will always be a doubt as to whether a black person will receive justice at his hands. He may be a man of great probity, but we cannot know that. There must be no suspicion of bias.

And I'm afraid I find it hard to believe that a known racist will actually treat people the same regardless of his views. That has not been the experience here. Do African-Americans share your optimism?

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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.

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Liam
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Oh come on, (large parts of) the 'media' in the UK at least are obsessed with allowing 'minority voices' to be heard. Television, in particular the BBC, is full of programming aimed at giving minorities the chance to air thier grievances, or just be entertained.

The occasional piece of investigative journalism or 'special interest' programming doesn't change the fact that the dominant tone of reporting in this country - on, for example, the refugee issue - is often biased and xenophobic. The language used and the stories they choose to cover contribute to a climate of distrust and hatred for those who are different. This applies even to the Guardian and the BBC, not just the rabid Daily Mail end of the spectrum.

Until we get some balance in the views that are publicly communicated, the media are contributing to a culture where the BNP and their friends can gain in power. Which brings me back to my point - that absolutist ideals about freedom of speech fail to take account of which voices get reported widely in the mass media, and the impact of what they say on the world as a whole.

[Today's top story: Space Monkey sucks ass at UBB.]

[ 06. November 2003, 16:57: Message edited by: RooK ]

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Scot

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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
A person who is known to hold racist views, be that from actual words or by actions or by membership of an avowedly racist organisation, is not appropriate as a public appointee in the administration of justice, for the very fact that they are expressly committed to treating persons differently according to their race.

You make an unsupported leap from "A person who is known to hold racist views" to "they are expressly committed to treating persons differently according to their race." This the very heart of much of what I have been objecting to.

I am absolutely convinced that people who hold certain political views are hopeless fuckwits. Am I therefore committed to limiting access to the polls? Not hardly. I'm as big a proponent of equal access to the political process as you are likely to find.

I believe that certain practices of some denominations are fundamentally unchristian. Do I refuse to share communion with them? No a chance. I'm adamantly in favor of an open table.

A negative attitude does not necessarily lead to discriminatory actions. You can't judge people on what you think they might do, only on what they have done.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
You can't judge people on what you think they might do, only on what they have done.

Like, for, example, expressing racist views.

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Narcissism.

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
You make an unsupported leap from "A person who is known to hold racist views" to "they are expressly committed to treating persons differently according to their race." This the very heart of much of what I have been objecting to.

That's not an unsupported leap.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Scot

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
The point, Wood, is that they generally do treat us all the same regardless of their personal opinions. They do it every day.

Stephen Lawrence.

No they, don't. It's been proven in court.

Missed the word "generally," did you?

Of course there are exceptions. They should be dealt with immediately and firmly. However, you can't prejudge an entire group of people by the actions of one member of the group. Not even if the group in question is "people with racist attitudes."

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Scot

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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
That's not an unsupported leap.

You want to expand on that, or shall I just start making fun of you?

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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dyfrig
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By holding a racist view a person is, by definition, going to treat people of different races less favourably. That's part of what being "racist" means, dimwit. So some fuckwit who says "I hate Pakis" is not really the sort of person you want responsible for providing policing particularly in a country with a significant Pakistani population.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Bongo
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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Of course there are exceptions. They should be dealt with immediately and firmly.

Er, the Lawrence Inquiry found that the entire Metropolitan (Greater London) police force is "institutionally racist."

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"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!" ~ Dr Strangelove

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Scot

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
You can't judge people on what you think they might do, only on what they have done.

Like, for, example, expressing racist views.
Yep, from that action we might reasonably judge that the speaker has racist views. However, we could not reasonably say that that person will necessarily be prone to racial discrimation in the course of their professional duties.

You are still trying to defend the idea that we should demand a standard of belief, as opposed to a standard of behavior, from our public officials. That's a appallingly totalitarian position.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Scot

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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
By holding a racist view a person is, by definition, going to treat people of different races less favourably. That's part of what being "racist" means, dimwit.

Bullshit. That's just another unsupported, unargued prima facie claim. I already provided a couple of personal examples of prejudices which don't govern actions.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Robert Porter-Miller

Tiocfaidh Separabit
# 1459

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Surely there are minority groups within the USA - as Moth alluded to that do not feel the police force is unbiased / non-racial / non-sectarian.

The Rodney King affair must surely have had some detrimental effect on the public perceptions of racial prejudice within the police force. At least within LA if nowhere else.

Admittedly you are innocent until proven guilty, but what checks can you use to ensure that the police force is above reproach - as it should be (very utopian / unicorn / teapot attitude I know).

Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?

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It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away - Bono and the boys

Let's all "Release Some Tension"

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Scot

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?

Having a person who practiced racial discrimination patrolling South Central would be a very bad idea indeed. Period. No need to delve into political or social affiliations.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Rat
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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?

Having a person who practiced racial discrimination patrolling South Central would be a very bad idea indeed. Period. No need to delve into political or social affiliations.
Having a person who presented themselves publically as racist - for instance by telling racist jokes or calling people racist names - patrolling South Central would also be a very bad idea indeed, I imagine. In practical terms even if not ethical. Even if that person was not actually racist at all.

None of us are claiming to be able to see inside people's minds. We are saying what we have said from the beginning, that someone who chooses to present themselves as racist should be treated as such - not a fit person to police a multicultural society.

Rat

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
We have a right to EXPECT them to believe in a certain way.

<<SNIP>>
I can believe whatthefuckever I want to believe and you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to expect me to believe any differently.

Worst Case Scenario

...unless, of course, you want to be a police officer, teacher, politician. hmmm... come to think of it, maybe you shouldn't be a farmer either.
As a farmer you would be free to tamper with food at the source, and could easily inject DNA specific viruses into your live stock and produce, injury and killing many of the minority races. Of course, to get a DNA specific virus, you would need a racist scientists. So we better monitor them too.
As we can see, there will be few jobs available for you if you are going to hold a view or opinion that differs from what the government and all the good citizens believe. So you will probably end up homeless.

We can't have a bunch of homeless radicals running around loose, now can we?

Or, best case scenario: It takes a very long time to get to that point.


NP

[If you're going to try to be fancy by using UBB, at least check it you stupid cattlefucker.]

[ 06. November 2003, 17:04: Message edited by: RooK ]

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Nonpropheteer
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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?

Having a person who practiced racial discrimination patrolling South Central would be a very bad idea indeed. Period. No need to delve into political or social affiliations.
I think it would be worse for him than the good citizens of South Central. [Biased]

NP

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Robert Porter-Miller

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# 1459

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
Having a member of the KKK who is in the police force and is patrolling south central LA is surely not a wise idea?

Having a person who practiced racial discrimination patrolling South Central would be a very bad idea indeed. Period. No need to delve into political or social affiliations.
However if the community were to find out that a klansman who was a member of the police was patrolling their neighbourhood surely then there is an issue?

The perception the black community has of a policeman with klan membership patrolling within their community may be the same perception that a Catholic community in Northern Ireland has of a policeman who happens to be a member of the orange order patrolling their neighbourhood.

It may be an unjustified prejudice because they can in fact do their job without prejudice and impartially, but it is still real. What are we going to do - have open days within these organizations to try and patch up community differences and show how tolerant they really are and that you can be confident in their ability?

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It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away - Bono and the boys

Let's all "Release Some Tension"

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Papio

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# 4201

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Wood has already pointed out that he meant Behaviour and not belief.................


So, an extreme racist who thinks Blacks and Asains are scum, that they have no right to be in the country in the first place, who thinks they are probably criminals because they are black, who thinks black people "smell funny" and depreciates both their human dignity and human worth, who thinks blacks are less evolved than whites and less intelligent than whites and less civilised than whites may still be ideal police material?

Good Grief.

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Scot

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I can't ignore the buzzing from my Going Around In Circles Sensor any more, so I'm just going to state my position clearly one more time and then let it lie.

First point - Racism is a bad thing. A government that interferes with the people's freedoms of association, speech, or thought is a far worse thing. As Presleyterian eloquently pointed out, racism is limited by "the moral bankruptcy of their political beliefs when forced to compete in the marketplace of ideas." Since though policing suppresses the marketplace of ideas, it is not similarly constrained.

Second point - It is wrong to discipline employees on the sole basis of their beliefs, associations, or the actions of their peers. People should be judged on their actions, not what we think their future actions might be.

That's all. If it bothers you, just be glad you have a different system where you live.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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The Riv
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Sorry about that redundant mess I left above. Not sure at what I was getting. [Hot and Hormonal]

So, if through the haze I can try to get this straight, actions don't speak louder than words. Words predispose our actions? Or, is it that words expose what our actions mean, regardless of when they're words opposite of what we do? This is, of course, in the context of someone being known to have claimed certain beliefs. What about those who are privately hiding them, or lie about holding such views? If they consistently act 'rightly', against their privately held, unsavory views, are they not fit to serve? What you don't know can hurt you, sure, but not if those who DO know don't act on their knowledge (of themselves).

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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams

"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune

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Liam
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# 4961

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
First point - Racism is a bad thing. A government that interferes with the people's freedoms of association, speech, or thought is a far worse thing. As Presleyterian eloquently pointed out, racism is limited by "the moral bankruptcy of their political beliefs when forced to compete in the marketplace of ideas."

At the risk of continuing the circle... Bullshit. We currently have a police force which has been found to be institutionally racist, and evidence that black and Asian people are routinely treated differently from white people by some police officers. A culture where racist language and jokes are tolerated makes it easier for this to continue. Racism is NOT limited by its moral bankruptcy when people with repellent attitudes are allowed to hold positions of power over those they hate.

People are being wrongly imprisoned, victimised in their daily lives, and even killed because we live in a culture where racist language and ideas are allowed air and even propagated in the mass media. This isn't just a philosophical argument - this is a real problem that has to be addressed. Looking very carefully at the attitudes and culture which dominate in our legal system would seem to me to be a very good start.

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Rat
Ship's Rat
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Telling a racist joke IS an action.

Joining a racist political party IS an action.

We have a right to demand that public employees, who are employed to administer the law 'without fear or favour', to refrain from these actions because they are destructive to the public peace and to the reputation of the police force.

That's it, I'm out of this too - if I say the same thing over again once more my head will turn all the way round and explode.

Rat

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Scot:

quote:
First point - Racism is a bad thing. A government that interferes with the people's freedoms of association, speech, or thought is a far worse thing.
You're white aren't you?

I'm being facetious. A little bit. On what grounds do you make that assumption?

Is it preferable to have a government that's really quite racist but otherwise libertarian to a government which, say, doesn't allow Neo-nazis to serve as police officers but which has flawless race relations?

Using, for the sake of argument, Uncle Jeremy Bentham's Felicific Calculator (aka the case of the greatest good for the greatest number) I think that it would be difficult, in terms of outcomes, to conclusively demonstrate that a police force which allows its members to be members of the KKK/BNP is always better for society than a police force which doesn't.

The basis of this pond war, so it appears to this Brit, is that US shipmates (and Alaric) generally see liberty as an absolute good which must never ever be interfered with. British shipmates see liberty as a good which has to co-exist with a range of other goods such as equality, social cohesion, justice et. al.

So the problem with this thread and the Phelps thread and all the other threads which have US and British shipmates shouting "Facist" and "Anarchist at each other (not that I would ever do such a thing of course [Biased] )is that like Sydney Smith's fishwives, we are arguing from different premises.

The question we need to be asking is "should freedom have the absolute status is has in US society? Is it always wrong to restrict freedom? and if so why?"

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Callan
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# 525

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Of course the question could equally be phrased "Do Brits pay too high a price for social cohesion" or whatever. I'm not suggesting that the US have a monopoly on unexamined assumptions.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Presleyterian
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Hold on to your hat. What follows is an earth-shattering declaration: I don't much like kids.

There. I've said it. I go out of my way to live in an apartment that is de facto adults only. If I have a choice in a restaurant, I sit as far away as possible from table with kids. I don't usually invite my friends' children to my house. I generally decline invitations to "bring the whole family" social events. I vocally oppose tax policies that favor breeders and vote against politicians who pander to "children's interests." And those who have been on the boards for a while will remember some of my screamin'-babies-in-church diatribes.

And yet....

I've never physically harmed a child. I've never even spoken harshly to a child -- which is more than most of you kid lovers can claim. In emergency situations when I've had to tend to friends' children for extended periods of time, I've fed them, protected them, and cared for them. And if you ask the average seven-year-old what they think of their acquaintance Presleyterian, I daresay you'll get a glowing report of a slightly madcap Auntie Mame type who: 1) lets them drink apple juice out of highball glasses with an orange slice and maraschino cherry; 2) improves their math skills by teaching them to double down the house when playing Texas Hold 'Em; and 3) gives them feather boas and leather flasks on their eighth birthday. Which is why I agree with Scot that the sole emphasis should be on conduct, not belief.

As others have raised on this thread, there are a good number of Christians who belong to denominations that teach a rigid view of male headship that I find deplorable. Does it concern me that a police officer who is, say, a Southern Baptist might allow those views to enter into how he handles a domestic violence call? Sure. But am I willing to say that out of sensitivity to women, a Southern Baptist shouldn't be allowed to be a cop? Of course not. If it turns out that his response to a beaten wife is to say "You need to learn to submit to your husband as leader of the household," fire his ass. But base it on his actions, not his thoughts or affiliations.

[ 06. November 2003, 16:14: Message edited by: Presleyterian ]

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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But I still think that joining the BNP is a matter of conduct and not merely of belief.

And with that, I bow out also. This circular pond war is boring even me.

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I don't much like kids.


A paedophobe in our midst! Repent of your intolerance, or you will be thrown into the pit of fire until you see the error of your evil ways. You should not be allowed to spew such hatred of kids on this web-site, you heathen!

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Presleyterian:

quote:
I've never physically harmed a child. I've never even spoken harshly to a child -- which is more than most of you kid lovers can claim. In emergency situations when I've had to tend to friends' children for extended periods of time, I've fed them, protected them, and cared for them. And if you ask the average seven-year-old what they think of their acquaintance Presleyterian, I daresay you'll get a glowing report of a slightly madcap Auntie Mame type who: 1) lets them drink apple juice out of highball glasses with an orange slice and maraschino cherry; 2) improves their math skills by teaching them to double down the house when playing Texas Hold 'Em; and 3) gives them feather boas and leather flasks on their eighth birthday. Which is why I agree with Scot that the sole emphasis should be on conduct, not belief.
This is a somewhat less than compelling analogy. Unless you think that Nazis are really loveable, madcap curmudgeons who, given half a chance, will ply black people with apple juice and play cards with them. In which case it's no wonder you people were two years late for the Second World War.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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The Riv
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# 3553

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Except, my dear Professor, that you've commented upon the gravy of Presleyterian's post -- not the meat -- which was the other analogy about the cop who may be a devout Southern Baptist.

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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams

"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
You can't judge people on what you think they might do, only on what they have done.

Like, for, example, expressing racist views.
Yep, from that action we might reasonably judge that the speaker has racist views. However, we could not reasonably say that that person will necessarily be prone to racial discrimation in the course of their professional duties.

You are still trying to defend the idea that we should demand a standard of belief, as opposed to a standard of behavior, from our public officials. That's a appallingly totalitarian position.

Oh, for fuck's sake. NO I AM NOT.

I'M NOT.

I.

AM.

NOT.

It was a typo. I meant "behave"! It's about a standard of behaviour! The "believe" thing was a fucking mistake! A mistake! LIKE I FUCKING SAID!

Can you people not read? Is there something about making a mistake and apologising for it that doesn't apply to me?

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Narcissism.

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Scot

Deck hand
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Pour some ice in your panties. I wasn't referring to your typo. I was referring to your (and others') arguments throughout the thread. It's not my fault if your slip was freudian.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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There would seem to be room to start a thread on this subject in purgatory.

Nightlamp
Hellhost

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by The Riv:

quote:
Except, my dear Professor, that you've commented upon the gravy of Presleyterian's post -- not the meat -- which was the other analogy about the cop who may be a devout Southern Baptist.
I wouldn't compare Southern Baptists to Nazis either. [Biased]

Seriously, if I were a battered woman who had phoned the police I might feel quite comfortable if my rescuer turned out to be an old fashioned Southern Baptist who insisted on addressing me as Ma'am and whose sense of chivalry was outraged by the fact that I was sporting a black eye caused by spousal abuse. The fact that I might differ from him over the merits of, say, J.S. Mill's views on the emancipation of women would, I imagine, matter little in comparison. If, on the other hand, I were a member of an ethnic minority who had just suffered a racial assault and my rescuer was wearing a ring with a swastika on it, I doubt that I would feel quite so happy about the beliefs of my rescuer.

I think that there is a reasonable correlation between membership of far-right organisations and violence. That is, as it were, the point of facism. There's a strong correlation at the very least, I would imagine. I would be very surprised indeed if any such correlation existed relating Southern Baptists to domestic violence.

So I don't think that the analogy holds there either. But I plead guilty on picking on the weakest part of Presleyterian's argument for rhetorical effect. [Biased]

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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RooK

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There would seem to be sufficient hot air to drive a windmill generator on this subject. It would have to be spittle-proof, though.

RooK
Hellhost

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Presleyterian
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# 1915

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quote:
Mr. Callan wrote: This is a somewhat less than compelling analogy. Unless you think that Nazis are really loveable, madcap curmudgeons who, given half a chance, will ply black people with apple juice and play cards with them. In which case it's no wonder you people were two years late for the Second World War.
I think the analogy holds, Mr. Callan, although you're correct that I was only slightly serious. That said, beliefs do not inevitably correlate into actions. One can have strong political beliefs that America's borders should be tighter than a burped Tupperware container when it comes to immigration and yet still be perfectly pleasant to ones Brazilian and Vietnamese and British neighbors. (OK, well maybe not them.) One can support a repeal of drug laws and yet not toke up. (Are the teens still using that phrase, by the way?) My point is that the minute "those people" can be excluded because of what they believe -- as opposed to how they behave -- you can be excluded because of what you believe. How would you (using the word generically) like to lose your job because of your membership in that blatantly hateful and homophobic group, the Anglican Community?

On the related topic of "social cohesion" in the UK, I've always found that a pretty laughable concept from a society that grants political power, perks, and prestige to people based on who their great-great-yadda-yadda-grandparents shtupped back in William of Orange's day.

Oh, and as for why "you people were two years late for the Second World War," my people were in Theresienstadt at the time. Sorry they didn't have the opportunity to RSVP their regrets to you and the plucky Mrs. Miniver, but the appropriate social stationery was hard to come by at the time.

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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Presleyterian:

quote:
Oh, and as for why "you people were two years late for the Second World War," my people were in Theresienstadt at the time. Sorry they didn't have the opportunity to RSVP their regrets to you and the plucky Mrs. Miniver, but the appropriate social stationery was hard to come by at the time.
In which case I apologise unreservedly for being unnecessarily offensive.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Presleyterian
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# 1915

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Thank you, Mr. Callan, although as you might imagine under the circumstances, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the United States was shamefully slow in joining the war.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Telling a racist joke IS an action.

Joining a racist political party IS an action.

Insofar as "tell" and "join" are verbs. But the US (quite rightly, IMFAO) differentiates between words and actions quite clearly.

And Wood, dearie, you need to reacquaint yourself with your own words:

quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:

We have a right to EXPECT them to believe in a certain way.

Shit. Freudian slip. Not "believe". I meant "behave".

How big do I feel? [Hot and Hormonal]

And, just for you, I hopped on over to m-w.com to find the definition of a Freudian slip:

quote:
Main Entry: Freudian slip
Function: noun
Date: 1953
: a slip of the tongue that is motivated by and reveals some unconscious aspect of the mind

So yeah, you DID mean believe. If you need further help with your English you just let me know.

[ 06. November 2003, 17:35: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
And Wood, dearie, you need to reacquaint yourself with your own words:

quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:

We have a right to EXPECT them to believe in a certain way.

Shit. Freudian slip. Not "believe". I meant "behave".

How big do I feel? [Hot and Hormonal]

And, just for you, I hopped on over to m-w.com to find the definition of a Freudian slip:

quote:
Main Entry: Freudian slip
Function: noun
Date: 1953
: a slip of the tongue that is motivated by and reveals some unconscious aspect of the mind

So yeah, you DID mean believe. If you need further help with your English you just let me know.

Erin, I love you dearly, but don't ever patronise me this way again.

And don't you DARE ever tell me what I'm thinking and what I mean. I mean what I mean. No more, no less.

I meant behaviour. You want to pretend I'm some sort of evil totalitarian bastard, fine. Just don't expect me to be pleased about it.

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Narcissism.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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YOU are the one who's all yelling about how words are actions and blah blah blah -- YOU SAID that "believe" was a -- and I QUOTE YOU -- "Freudian slip". Freudian slip, for your information, has a specific definition. It does NOT mean "I didn't mean that". It DOES mean "this is what I ACTUALLY think deep down in my heart of hearts".

Deal with it. And grow the fuck up while you're at it.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
YOU are the one who's all yelling about how words are actions and blah blah blah -- YOU SAID that "believe" was a -- and I QUOTE YOU -- "Freudian slip". Freudian slip, for your information, has a specific definition. It does NOT mean "I didn't mean that". It DOES mean "this is what I ACTUALLY think deep down in my heart of hearts".

Deal with it. And grow the fuck up while you're at it.

So I made another mistake. So I'm sorry about that.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Fine. But don't get all mortally offended when people take your words according to their accepted meaning.

[ 06. November 2003, 18:31: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Oh, great. I bet Erin deliberately transmogrified into the razor-fanged possumivore just to prove my previous statement naive. I also bet Wood was in on it. Both your self-righteous banshee acts don't fool me.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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RooK, you old sweet talker, you. But you and Sarky can breathe a sigh of relief that we managed to scare everyone away from the thread and it can die now. And we won't even charge you for it.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged



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