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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Catholic Apostolic Church
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Arising from comments re the Church of Christ the King, Gordon Square, on the 'Cathedral of Anglo-Catholicism in England' thread, I am prompted to ask if any shipmates (or people known to them formerly) have any memories of attending Catholic Apostolic services?
It has to be borne in mind that the last priest of the C-A Church in this country died as long ago as 1971, so ending celebrations of the Eucharist. However, in 1987 the church at Maid Vale was still being used on Sundays for a service of prayer based, I believe, on the Litany.
This is going to be a very obscure thread.....I really need to get out more!
Ian J.
[ 12. June 2005, 19:15: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I never had the chance to, unfortunately. Having done a quick search on them, it seems all very interesting. This 'New Apostolic Church' - are they quite similar?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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aumbry
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# 436
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Posted
The Catholic Apostolic Church still exists and is registered as a charity. I think their last operational church was in Maida Vale and this closed down in the 1980s. They did not believe in creating new priests so eventually died out.
The remaining trust, I recall being told, still owns the freeholds of their various former churches which it lets to various Christian denominations. The lovely Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Camberwell South London is one of theirs and I suspect they still have the freehold of Christ the King. They had a particularly beautiful church in Edinburgh and in their day must have appealed to a particularly prosperous crowd.
Aumbry
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Pax Britannica
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# 1876
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Posted
Like a dinosaur’s bones, their buildings are all that remain. The last Apostle, F.V. Woodhouse, died as long ago as 1901, but the churches endure. Yes, Aumbry, the Edinburgh church is here (fine baldachino) and now its interesting murals are being restored. No doubt the iconography reflects its unusual theology – heavily OT-based. Many other buildings seem to exist, but aside from Edinburgh and Gordon Square, the finest seems to be the chapel at Albury Park (1840), by William McIntosh Brookes, who also did the village church. Drummond’s house was contemporaneously enlarged by AWN Pugin – what he thought of his patron’s Irvingite cronies is not recorded.
Their wealth seems to have been derived – aside from Drummond – from a strict application of tithing among its members (O sic omnes!). But they are surely one of the more attractive splinter sects of the last century, with their wacko OT-based (and OTT) ceremonial, and emphasis on the parousia, at least when they got over the ‘prophesying in tongues’ chaos (I assume that had been ironed out of the liturgy that you have, BF?). It also helps that they are all firmly dead.
For the aspiring Drummonds with £68 spare among us, there is a recent (large) OUP monograph by Flegg “Gathered under Apostles”. No trace of it in the second hand departments, alas. And what does Anson in “Bishops at Large” say of them?
Yes – a more attractive group than the likes of “Bishop” A.H. Mathew, or Archbishop Nicholson in the “Ancient Catholic Cathedral” on Lower Sloane Street, with Sir Alfred and Lady Munnings admiring his blessing of the animals. Though, if they’d waited a few decades, they can get that now at our lovely Cathedral on a Hill here in Noo Yawk.
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
Even more interesting than the Apostolic catholics were the Agapemonites whose extraordinary church still stands in Clapton (London) and is now called the Church of the Good Shepherd. I've always wondered what goes on there. These days it seems to be a sort of spiritualist church. I believe the Agapemonites had a rather racy history.
Aumbry
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Pax Britannica - thanks for your comments and, yes, there does not appear to be any specific mention of 'tongues' in the mature C-A liturgy I have.
I gather that the church was indeed well-heeled, partly due to their emphasis on tithing, and it does appear to have been a somewhat upper middle-class affair.
Part of their 'attractiveness' appears to me to be their belief that they were not in any way to be regarded as being in opposition to existing churches.
Back-to-Front - the 'New Apostolic Church' is indeed an offshoot of the Catholic Apostolic Church. Apparently, the deaths of some of the twelve 'Apostles' by 1855 led to a division in the C-A Church, many members in Hamburg, Germany, taking the view that replacement Apostles should be elected. This was not shared by the others, so by 1863 separation had taken place and the New Apostolic Church formed. I confess I have no idea if they still use C-A liturgical forms, however.
I said this was an obscure subject....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Charles Read
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# 3963
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Posted
Slightly more obscure tangent...
two Anglican liturgical scholars did their PhD's on the Catholic Apostolics:
Kenneth Stephenson on their eucharist and Paul Roberts on their initiation rites.
Neither PhD was ever published...
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Pax Britannica
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# 1876
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
I believe the Agapemonites had a rather racy history.
Ah! We're on to the upstanding (sic) Smyth-Pigott and his concubines already...
quote:
whose extraordinary church still stands in Clapton (London) and is now called the Church of the Good Shepherd. I've always wondered what goes on there. These days it seems to be a sort of spiritualist church.
Are we back in Nicholson-land? This is the "Ancient Catholic" Cathedral Church of the GS, with smart notice board, armorial bearings, monthly animal blessings, and weekly "address and clairvoyance meeting". Are we in Lower Sloane Street transferred? A grand building, and surely either BF or Aumbry, we can get you to Mystery Worship it for us? Ouija boards at the ready, chaps.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Hmm.....thanks, PB - this does sound as though it's worth MWing! I shall have to see what can be done - though I don't think I could stand going to the Animal Blessing Service (dogs....ugh!!! ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) ).
Ian J.
(Apologies to all you dog-loving folks....)
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
The Good Shepherd, which is more on Stamford Hill than Claptonm IIRC, is certainly a weird building from the outside. When I first came across it I was quite taken aback. Bulls and goats and carved animals.
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L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
One local guide mentions eagles and bulls round the spire, but fails (of course) to recognise them as symbols of the four evangelists.
So maybe Bro Ken or one of you London shipmates might just pop in and see it and tell us all? The Agapemonites might well have left some loony internal fixtures and architectural details: the Ancient Caths were perhaps more regular CofE in their decor (??) - but they've been there half a century so it should be 'authentick'.
And they must be the successors of Archbishop H.P. Nicholson - Lower Sloane Street (also "Cathedral of the Good Shepherd") was a former Baptist Chapel that was bombed, and they sold in 1956. Clapton/Stamford Hill was bought in 1956. Coincidence? Far grander, though not in PeterJones-land. And looks like the funky liturgy is the same. We may have discovered a liturgical coelacanth here.
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The Undiscovered Country
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# 4811
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Posted
In 'Restoring The Kingdom' Andrew Walker details the history of the Catholic Apostolic Church in one of the chapters and cites it as being one of the key theological influences on the British House Church/New Church movement (albeit a mainly unconscious influence)
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all hope of progress rests with the unreasonable man.
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
I've just had a look in Pevsner to see what it has to say about the Cathedral of the Good Shepherd. Upper Clapton it is - do people say Stamford Hill to sound posh? Apparently it was built as the "Arc of the Covenant" for the Agapemonite Sect followers of Henry James Prince. Inside it is said to be heavy with symbolism and has a stunning set of stained glass windows designed by Walter Crane one of which is described as "Righteousness flanked by Sin and Shame and Disease and Death, elongated writhing figures tortured by flames and snakes"
I'd love to go and mystery worship it -but would be too scared. The cat on the notice board is enough to give anyone the willys.
Aumbry
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Amphibalus
Cloak of anonymity
# 5351
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Posted
When I was at theological college in London during the late 60s, I have a distinct recollection that one of my fellow ordinands was from a Catholic Apostolic family that had been steered towards Anglicanism when their local congregation started dwindling. I believe he has now been elevated to the purple.
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I saw a werewolf with a Chinese menu in his hand
Walking through the streets of Soho in the rain
He was looking for the place called Lee Ho Fook’s
Going to get a big dish of beef chow mein. (Warren Zevon)
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
Thank you, Aumbry -- I believe the new Pevsner contains this much more detailed information. I have a dispatched a Special Agent to investigate the Clapton Ark - and the Crane windows. His cover will be to inquire (of the current Ancient Caths) whether they do pussy or doggie weddings, and if so whether same-sex unions are also permitted. But maybe one of you London shipmates might do an advance recce?
Alas, the Adullam Chapel, in Brighton (Windsor Street), is I suspect long gone. Parts of the Spaxton complex are apparently on the market at the moment.
[ 27. June 2004, 23:31: Message edited by: Pax Britannica ]
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
There was a Catholic Apostolic Church in Bristol - but it has now been taken over by the orthodox community (either russian or polish orthodox!)
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
http://www.cacina.org/
is this the Catholic Apostolic Church - looks pretty much in tact still, even though it only has a few parishes.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks for the link, 103, but this is a completely different body.
CACINA appears to be of fairly recent origin (1945) and emanates from Brazil, whereas the Catholic Apostolic Church we are referring to on this thread was an British sect originating from the preaching of a Scottish Presbyterian minister called Henry Irving in London in the 1830s.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
The Catholic Apostolic Church still exists and is registered as a charity. I think their last operational church was in Maida Vale and this closed down in the 1980s...
Just picked up on this. This is one of Pearson's best works, stone vaulted, and his last town church. Strange projecting baptistery at the west end between the entrance porches, and ingenious south chapel with its own ambulatory. Stump of uncompleted tower. Maida Avenue. Who uses it now? A splendid companion to his even more superb S. Augustine's nearby. Must be Grade 2*.
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Nigel Tranter the late Scottish historical novelist was one - his family used to go to the Mansefield Place Catholic Apostolic church (the one with the Phoebe Traquair murals) in Edinburgh.
What I'd like to know is whether they had any distinctive or interesting music or hymns?
cheers,
Louise
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
Well I have just popped over to Maida Avenue to have a look. Maida Avenue must be one of London's most attractive streets and quite a contrast to the Edgeware Road nearby which must be one of the ugliest.It has a boat filled canal running through the middle and is lined with stucco-fronted late regency houses. The church is very big, high-victorian red brick (highest quality) with bath-stone banding, but surprisingly low key as the trees rather cut off the views of it.It is a magnificent church and as Pax commented is very similar in style to St Augustine's Kilburn and not much smaller I would guess. There is a stump where presumably it was intended to build a spire like the one at St Augustines. I took a photo but have no idea how, if possible, to include it with this.
I would think this is grade I listed and not II*.
But then things started to get mysterious. The church is clearly no longer used for services and yet appears to be in superlative condition to the extent that there are smart little hedges at the front of it and the brickwork and roof are very well maintained. I could not see any evidence that it had changed use - it looks very much like a church and not a recording studio or such like. And this would tie in with the fact that the Apostolic Catholics seem to insist that their churches are used for christian purposes and not converted into carpet warehouses (How unlike the CofE). But the gates are padlocked and there is no sign outside.
I wonder whether this is still retained as an Apostolic Catholic Church but simply does not hold services which would make sense as I believe the services were held here until the 1980's when the congregation more or less literally died out although the church continues.
If its interior is as fine as the exterior this must be an overlooked gem.
I will see what I can find out.
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
Bravo Aumbry!!! BF says he's been inside - was that while it was still in CathAp use? Photos of the interior and plan are in the Pearson Quiney/Yale book.
Yes, Louise, we need an CathAp hymnal! And maybe a video of a High Mass? Well, maybe not. But - BF - what's the liturgy that you have look like? Significant differences from BCP?
Here's the Bristol church mentioned by 103rd.
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
Catholic Apostolic church services appear to have been rather grandiose affairs in their heyday: there were large numbers of priests and deacons, incense was used and there was exposition of the blessed sacrament. Music appears to have been of a very high standard but I have not found any details of what was performed.
I suspect that they were a product of Victorian taste whereby ornamentation and ceremony were adored and puritanical protestantism had little appeal. There was an added mystical element that was in tune with an age of spiritualism and theosophy. These were people who probably wanted catholic forms of worship but did not want the social stigma of being Roman Catholics. They were the ones who couldn't come out of the closet and get into the confessional box. This would also account for the high proportion of well healed middle class members - the one group that was least likely to convert to Rome. It is not clear to me whether they pre-date the Oxford Movement in this regard.
They appear to have had 9 congregations in London so presumably there were 9 churches. I only know of Gordon Square, Little Venice and Camberwell. Does anyone know of any others?
By the way the church in Camberwell - now St Marys Greek Orthodox Cathedral - is turning out for the London Open House Weekend in September and is well worth a visit.
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
I would think that, at least in the early days, the principal feature of the faith would have been the expected imminent parousia, so it would have required more than just a taste for 'bells and smells' to get the punters in - the doctrine and teaching would have been markedly different from the CofE or RC churches, surely? As to music and liturgy, there seems nothing listed in the British Library, other than some books for another CathAp church - Glastonbury Rite - which must be the different group related to the CACINA lot identified by BF. It would be nice to know whether Gordon Square resounded to Mozart or Stanford, and whether they TARPed or TAWPed. They obviously wanted good organs, and so that presumes hymns. Surely not A&M though?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Good to hear that the Maida Vale Church is still in good condition. I visited it in Autumn 1987, at which time it was still being used on Sundays at 10.30am for a simple service of prayer based on the Litany (the C of E version plus a few alterations). It was cared for by a resident Doorkeeper (his official title, hence the capital letter) who was responsible, on his own initiative, for considerable restoration work on the adjacent vestries. He was certainly not an old man, and may well still be in residence.....there is a tiny cottage attached to the church, IIRC.
The Liturgy in its mature version was quite advanced and complex. Services were provided for Morning Prayer, Forenoon Service, Afternoon Service, Evening Prayer, the Eucharist, Administration of Communion (i.e. previously consecrated at the morning Eucharist) on the Afternoon of the Lord's Day, Removing the Holy Sacrament and many others...... Shortened forms of service are also provided, the full length versions usually being led by one of the college of Apostles, or an Angel (Bishop) at the very least.
I am not knowledgeable enough to be able to expound much on the origins of the Catholic Apostolic liturgy, but I am told it combines elements of Anglican, Roman, Orthodox and Free Church worship! It is very Cranmerian in style, but with the rather longer prayers etc. that one might associate with Orthodox worship.
I don't have much information on the music used, but apparently psalms were sung to plainchant and such pieces as the Te Deum and other Canticles were sung to Anglican chant. Hymns were used, many of which were composed for the C-A Church, but I have never seen a copy of the hymnbook.
The London Churches were, I believe, as follows:
Gordon Square
Maida Vale
Mare Street, Hackney (became Greek Orthodox many years ago)
New Road, Camberwell (now Greek Orthodox)
Elyston Street, Chelsea (bombed in WW2)
Abbey Orchard Street, Westminster (became Roman Catholic - I remember it from about 30 years ago, but I believe it has been demolished)
Duncan Street, Islington (present status not known!)
Some of these had 'dependent' congregations, some with their own buildings.
I suspect the Catholic Apostolic Church is still in existence as a legally-constituted organisation, but it seems unlikely that very many people (if at all) still follow its teachings and use its Liturgy.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
Well done, BF! You and Bro Aumbry should be commissioned to write a pocket guide to the CathAps. I see the Gordon Square archives went to the Bodleian (including lots of liturgical books, but no hymnals listed as such). May include music lists? There are also document collections at Edinburgh Univ from the chapels in the Northern Kingdom.
I bet they sang "Lo he comes with clouds descending" to which they may have added a couple of verses apposite to their creed.
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Pax Britannica
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# 1876
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Posted
STDP. Dr Julian has the answer: Hymns for the Use of the Churches, Edward William Eddis ed. 1864, 1871 &c. "Compiled for the use of their congregations... very few found in other collections; exceptions are: O brightness of the Immortal Father's face (from the Greek), In us the hope of glory ("the Second Advent desired", Thou standest at the altar ("H. Communion")."
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Thanks, Pax Britannica - now I come to think of it, I have heard of Mr. Eddis and his work. In a way, it is a shame that the Catholic Apostolic Church's Liturgy has been lost to us, as I imagine one of their services would have been well worth attending.....
As a codicil to my post above, I should acknowledge the fact that much of my information regarding the C-As comes from a privately-published monograph called 'Albury and the Catholic Apostolic Church' by George L. Standring in 1967. Mr. Standring wrote it as part of his studies to become an Anglican Lay Reader - he was living at that time in an apartment in Albury Park, the mansion in Surrey formerly owned by Henry Drummond, first Apostle of the C-As.
I should also point out that my visit to the Maida Vale church was something of a privilege, granted to me by the C-A authorities on the understanding that I would not cause any article or photographs to be published as a result. They were then (and presumably still are) a rather retiring and secretive body, seeking no publicity and certainly no converts! They had no problem in selling me Mr. Standring's booklet, however, IIRC.
Mr. Standring also included a fairly good bibliography - P. E. Shaw's treatise on the Church is the only one I've ever seen or read (and that was only because my local library managed to locate a copy).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Oh, and by the way.....
The Maida Vale church is indeed as impressive within as without. My recollections are of a severe and austere building with much fine woodwork, and rather more pews and stalls in the chancel than one would expect in, for instance, a C of E church. This is because of the need to accommodate the many and various C-A orders of Angel, priests, deacons etc.
Those interested in 'tat' might like to know that eucharistic vestments were introduced as early as Christmas Day 1843 (way ahead of the C of E). Colours, however, were not used to indicate liturgical seasons etc., but rather to identify the rank of the minister - gold for an elder, blue for a prophet, scarlet for an evangelist, white for a pastor and purple for an Angel (but white if the Angel was celebrating the Eucharist). Standring mentions this use in connection only with the stole, so I'm not sure if the chasuble matched or not. Yes, obscure, as I remarked earlier.....
How many and varied are the manifestations of faith.....!!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
Anson's invaluble 'Fashions in Church Furnishings' has a good section about the Catholic Apostolics with one of his nice line drawings of the liturgy. They didn't use candles, only oil lamps.
Cosmo
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
I see Henry 103 has pointed out that the Catholic Apostolics had a church in Bristol. In fact they had one right on his patch. There was a Bath church at the east end of the Paragon in the Vineyards built in the norman style in 1840 designed by Manners of Bath. He was a fashionable local architect who also designed St Michaels Parish Church which is at the meeting of Walcot and Broad Streets. This must have been one of their earliest. I cannot quite place the C-A church from memory - does the building still exist?
I am going to indulge myself and buy an early twentieth century church survey for London and see how many catholic apostolics there were in 1900 - I will report.
One last thought - if the Little Venice church is merely mothballed I should guess they still have all the accoutrements, vestments and possibly hymnbooks there.
Aumbry
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
I can't recall being shown any vestments etc. during my visit to Maida Vale - I wish I'd asked!
It will be interesting, aumbry, to see what you come up with re statistics - good luck with your researches.
We had a C-A church in Chatham until comparatively recently, but it was handed over to a Seventh Day Adventist congregation who replaced it with a new (and, I suspect, much less interesting) building. I never saw it in the flesh, and have also never seen a picture of it. Some of their buildings were elaborate, and others (such as the one in Westminster) were quite modest little affairs.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Pax Britannica
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# 1876
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Posted
Well, let's make them an offer and we can recreate a service with BF...
My 1905 Harmsworth Encyclopaedia reports "50,000 communicants, mostly in Britain". That seems a lot.
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aumbry
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# 436
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Posted
Well considering the size of some of the London churches and also the fact that most reasonably sized towns appear to have had a church, 50,000 doesn't sound impossible. A very small denomination by Victorian standards even with that number I would have thought and yet in London they have left almost as big a mark architecturally as the Methodists.
Aumbry
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aumbry
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# 436
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Posted
In Chatham you had the Jezerelites too. Forgive spelling. A very strange sect if ever there was one.
Any traces left?
Aumbry
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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The Jezreelites (or 'New and Latter House of Israel') were actually based in Gillingham, but their Tower (never completed) was demolished in the early 1960s. A nearby row of shops built and occupied by them is still in existence, however, complete with some of their signs and symbols thereon.
They were a sort of combination of one of those odd 'British Israelite' sects and followers of the Prophetess Joanna Southcott of 'Flying Roll' fame.......material for another thread, perhaps?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Just a thought - if, as PB suggests, we recreate a C-A service, can I please be the Angel?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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aumbry
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# 436
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Posted
I fear that we are living a charmed life on this thread bearing in mind the ruthless way in which the Swedenborgian thread was terminated. But perhaps the Threadmeister has something against Swedish mystics.
Aumbry
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amphibalus
Cloak of anonymity
# 5351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Well considering the size of some of the London churches and also the fact that most reasonably sized towns appear to have had a church, 50,000 doesn't sound impossible. A very small denomination by Victorian standards even with that number I would have thought and yet in London they have left almost as big a mark architecturally as the Methodists.
While researching something completely different, I chanced across this picture of the 'Catholic & Apostolic Church (Irvingite)' in Bridgnorth, Shropshire. Bridgnorth in 1850 (when this church was built) would have had a population of less than 5,000. The building was in East Castle Street, and thus in direct opposition to the parish church of St Mary's at the other end of the road. The site is now a community centre but - as I remember from my days as a curate in a neighbouring town - has just enough of the original building left to maintain an ecclesiastical air. I never knew why then - but now I do!
I also have a distinct recollection of once passing a small, very dilapidated hut on one of Shropshire's 'less travelled' roads which had a very faded sign proclaiming it to be a CathAp chapel, though it had clearly not been in use for many years. Presumably it had been an outlier from the Bridgnorth congregation.
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Posts: 1471 | From: Home of Ronnie Radford's boot | Registered: Dec 2003
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
I fear that we are living a charmed life on this thread bearing in mind the ruthless way in which the Swedenborgian thread was terminated. But perhaps the Threadmeister has something against Swedish mystics.
Aumbry
Geneva Gown ON
Issues with the hosting of a board belong in the Styx, not as sly asides on another thread.
As for the reasons for the move, it was made clear in the closing post. It was a "Who are they", not "what do they do/how do they do it" thread, which made it a matter for Purgatory. This thread is discussing the buildings and practices of the CAC, and so within the bounds of MW.
Geneva Gown OFF
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Following on from Amphibalus' remarks above, the Catholic Apostolics did have a number of churches in quite small places. There was one until quite recently at Eynsham near Oxford, for example, but this drew its congregation from erstwhile members of two or three large Baptist chapels in the area.
I should have liked to see the interior of the little hut in the lane, as some C-A churches seem to have had quite elaborate fittings and furnishings! It may well have been used only for Services of the Word, though (rather like the unconsecrated Anglican Mission churches of the same era....).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
Well here it is - figures for Catholic Apostolic Church attendances in the County of London in 1904 coutesy of R Mudie-Smith's Religious Life of London, Hodder and Staughton 1904 (500 pages of harmless pleasure if ever there was)
There were 9 congregations in total (so another 2 to add to the list) and the figures represent Sunday attendance (as adjusted for "twicers" who whilst no doubt appreciated by the vicar were a bain to Mr Mudie-Smith the noted Scottish (in those days Scotch - no doubt)statistician.
Camberwell New Road - 473
College Street Chelsea - 292
Duncan Street Islington - 324
Gloucester Road Islington - 278
Gordon House Highgate - 281
Gordon Square - 581
Maida Vale - 489
Mare Street Hackney - 412
Victoria Street Westminster - 102
The C-A's represented 0.32% of total church attendance which compared most closely with the Quakers (0.30%). These figures would support a worldwide membership of 50,000 as this is attendance not membership.
For those interested the following well known Anglican parishes had attendances in 1904 (with current electoral roles in 2004 in brackets)
Category 1 (Keeping pecker up)
Holy Trinity Brompton 1921 (1553)
St Bartholomew the Great 184 (249)
Category 2 (wilting somewhat)
All Saints Margaret Street 734 (177)
St Pancras Parish Church 1500 (147)
St Mary Mag. Munster Square 1085 (59)
Category 3 (rocket-like performance)
St Helens Bishopsgate 82 (720)
So if you ever get into an argument about church attendances in London at the beginning of the twentieth century - I'm your man.
Aumbry
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Nice one, aumbry!
Congregations of around 600 at Gordon Square and 500 at Maida Vale (granted, spread over a fair number of services at either church) must have been impressive both to see and hear as they lifted their fervent voices in another of Mr. Eddis's hymns......!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I really must edit my posts properly.....
It occurred to me that by 1904 all the C-A's college of Apostles had passed away (Apostle Woodhouse, who died in 1901, being the last). They had, I believe, been in decline for some time as a result of this, and so these figures may well not represent attendance at its peak.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
I agree I think 1860 to 1880 would have been the best period. Apparently 1904 showed a considerable tailing off in congregations over the previous church census in the 1880's. This seems to have been a malaise which affected the Church of England as well.
One thing that does surprise me is how big the Congregationalists were in 1904. In a number of boroughs they were second only in numbers to the Anglicans. For instance in the City of London they had 7,449 worshippers compared to the Church of England's 10,561 with 7,008 of these going to the City Temple. They have left a much smaller mark on the ecclesiastical map than the Catholic Apostolics have.
Aumbry
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
It says much for the members of the C-A Church (or, if you want to be cynical, the hold the church authorities had over them....) that so many were still regular attenders three years after it was seen that the premise on which the sect had been built was false.
I find it almost incredible that the church survived as a worshipping body for so long - its doctrines and liturgy must have had a very strong appeal.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
Well as Leo said earlier in the thread there are still a few C-Aps living around Gordon Square waiting for the end of the world. Presumably they must think there has merely been a mix-up with the dates.
Surely the most bizarre thing is that they went to all the trouble of building such a magnificent cathedral when they believed that everything would be over within a generation.
Aumbry
PS I have had confirmation that the Maida Vale Church has been mothballed and is still an C-Ap church. Are they anticipating a revival I wonder or do they have some sort of requirement to keep one place of worship in existence up until the judgement day?
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
PS I have had confirmation that the Maida Vale Church has been mothballed and is still an C-Ap church. Are they anticipating a revival I wonder or do they have some sort of requirement to keep one place of worship in existence up until the judgement day?
I suspect that something similar might be going on with the Apostles' chapel at Albury. I'd very much like to get a look inside it but it seems to be off-limits though still maintained.
Has anyone ever been inside it or does anyone know of someone else who has been admitted?
By the way the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica entry on them is quite handy (although it has annoying pop-up adverts and a few scanning errors).
L
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