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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Against Cremation
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
The Orthodox Church is, as far as I know, the only church left that forbids cremation, (except where the law forbids burial, eg., Japan).
This was the historic position in Judaism and Christianity until the 19th Century. The only exceptions were the use of cremation for criminals or those who had seriously infringed the Law in the Old Testament.
So indefatigible was Christian opposition to cremation that it had been rendered extinct in Rome by the 4th century. In times when pagan Romans left the bodies of outcasts and criminals to rot by the roadside, Christians made a huge impact not only by burying their own dead but ALL the dead where they could.
This remained the position until the 19th century when agnostics, atheists and other freethinkers promoted cremation. Protestant Christians acquiesced first ... indeed PECUSA (as it was then) built the first crematorium to be used by a church.
Rome condemned the practice no less than 5 times in the 1890's only to relent in 1963 with precious little theological justification. The Orthodox alone have remained opposed for various reasons:-
(1) It denies SYMBOLICALLY (not actually) the resurrection promise in the context of death being "sleep."
(2) It promotes human violence against the body rather than a natural return to the earth.
(3) It makes honouring the dead, the body and the rituals of grief associated with the grave much more problematic.
(4) It is in clear violation of millennia of practice and Christ's own example.
There are other reasons but that will do for now.
Apart from the Orthodox ... does anyone here think that there is anything to regret in the now widespread Christian acceptance of cremation?
[ 02. January 2007, 19:46: Message edited by: RuthW ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(1) It denies SYMBOLICALLY (not actually) the resurrection promise in the context of death being "sleep."
Perhaps it affirms our faith in the spiritual context of the resurrection. I don't see that it symbolically denies the resurrection promise unless one really believes the corpse being interred is a sacrament of sorts.
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(2) It promotes human violence against the body rather than a natural return to the earth.
I wouldn't characterise it as violence - any more than building a house promotes violence against trees or eating promotes violence against animals and plants.
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(3) It makes honouring the dead, the body and the rituals of grief associated with the grave much more problematic.
Some people might find a graveside an unhealthy devotion. This strikes me as a horses for courses situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(4) It is in clear violation of millennia of practice and Christ's own example.
So are cars, plane flights and praying in English. As for Christ's own example... well, I'm sure you can guess the obvious objections to that argument.
What were the other reasons? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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The Expatriate Theolinguist
Shipmate
# 6064
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Posted
I guess it's something I never really thought about. When I first encountered it, as a child, it seemed a bit odd but I didn't think much of it.
At the moment, I think I sympathise with the Orthodox position on cremation, but a few years ago I would have said something like: 'God is big enough to cope with cremated bodies on the Day of Resurrection'.
And I still think that's true - it doesn't make it an acceptable practice though.
My parents have put in special requests to be buried rather than cremated, and my mother has reservations about organ transplants (ostensibly because she thinks God will have problems putting all the organs back in the right places).
Would it be fair to say that, on a practical level, cremation saves space and if we buried every corpse we'd struggle to find land to bury them under?
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Je suis une petite pomme de terre.
Formerly mr_ricarno, many moons ago.
Posts: 731 | From: Upstate New York | Registered: May 2004
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Apart from the Orthodox ... does anyone here think that there is anything to regret in the now widespread Christian acceptance of cremation?
I think the very nature of crematoria is an argument against cremation. Crematoria are soulless, godless places. Impersonal, inhuman. *shudder*
I have requested burial and not cremation, largely for the reasons you cited, Fr G. I'd rather decompose naturally (just as in life I composed naturally ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ok, sick pun).
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
I remember reading about the history of burial and cremation, and some of the descriptions of noxious odours filling churches from the crypts are quite horrifying. It was a real problem in the 19th, as graveyards became full literally to overflowing, and became a serious health hazard.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Ferijen
Shipmate
# 4719
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
I remember reading about the history of burial and cremation, and some of the descriptions of noxious odours filling churches from the crypts are quite horrifying. It was a real problem in the 19th, as graveyards became full literally to overflowing, and became a serious health hazard.
I think this is a key point: early advocates of modern cremation were mostly interested in finding a way of disposing of a huge number of dead bodies in a smaller, concentrated still living. Champions of cremation may have included "agnostics... and other free thinkers" but this group also included clergy.
To give my own responses
quote:
(1) It denies SYMBOLICALLY (not actually) the resurrection promise in the context of death being "sleep."
Obvious argument, used a lot in the early cremation movement (admittedly about physical resurrections Ezekiel) is that this alienates hundreds of thousands of Christian martyrs. Besides, dying remains "going to sleep".
And personally I'm not particularly bothered about denying symbols: you are free to differ and thus choose burial over cremation.
quote:
(2) It promotes human violence against the body rather than a natural return to the earth.
The alternative to this is also violent: contemporary to the 19th century cremation movement were overstacked graves frequently robbed (and burnt) at night, shifting of bones. And I find the instant "burn" effect as violent as being crushed by several tonnes of earth.
quote:
(3) It makes honouring the dead, the body and the rituals of grief associated with the grave much more problematic.
If the average grave is honoured for the lifetime of the next generation, this is only for 30,40 years. Honouring the dead after that point means battling for conservation powers or planning permission for overgrown sites. The vast majority of the rituals of grief are not associated with the grave, and a buried casket of ashes gives this same effect anyway.
quote:
(4) It is in clear violation of millennia of practice and Christ's own example.
Couldn't put it better than mdijon
As you have made clear, the remaining arguments against cremation are theologically symbolic or for the very short term. If you are a Christian who does not hold on to symbolic theological ideas, or even (gasp) a "freethinker", the present situation works fine. No one is forced into cremation - except in very particular circumstances - and 70% of Brits choose that way to go each year.
Posts: 3259 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(3) It makes honouring the dead, the body and the rituals of grief associated with the grave much more problematic.
This is the only one I have some sympathy with, particularly the 'rituals of grief' bit. There's something about seeing a coffin lowered into the earth by human hands that just isn't there in the various mechanised forms of cremation, which, if you get to witness at all, is probably over CCTV. And my first and only look inside a cremation oven generated an immediate association with the Holocaust.
That said, I'm beginning to think all this is more cultural than anything else. And I hope the Orthodox have a fund to cover the spiralling cost of decent burial as opposed to cremation...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Apart from the Orthodox ... does anyone here think that there is anything to regret in the now widespread Christian acceptance of cremation?
It's not just the Orthodox who think in this way. This subject got a mention in a recent sermon in my Grace Baptist church, with the subtext being that burial was good and cremation was bad, for a Christian. I guess the reasons would be similar to those you mentioned.
I'm pretty sure I've never known an evangelical Christian who was cremated (but maybe I just haven't been to enough funerals). - its always a burial, following a funeral service at the church. Cremations I've been to have been of 'non-believers' (using a standard evo definition of a believer)
[ 21. August 2006, 14:04: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Apart from the Orthodox ... does anyone here think that there is anything to regret in the now widespread Christian acceptance of cremation?
No, for two reasons. Firstly the "space" issue - if everyone was buried then with today's population we'd very quickly need whole cities dedicated just to graves.
Secondly, I just don't see any theological problem with it other than the purely symbolic. If it doesn't actually matter, it shouldn't be required.
That said, I want to be buried when my time comes. I prefer the thought of there still being something of me on the planet, rather than a pile of ashes that could have been anyone (or anything). But that's just me...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
5/ you might not be dead, at least with a grave you can use your mobile and get dug out.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I prefer burial to cremation for myself and family, but that's more a sentimental thing--seems a bit more dignified. But then when I think of what's actually going on inside that coffin, well.... I could change my mind.
Actually, nothing about what happens after death is dignified. And I doubt the Lord minds one way or the other. But I do wish that we lived in a culture where we didn't have to place the bodies of our beloved in the hands of strangers to prepare them after death....
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Apart from the Orthodox ... does anyone here think that there is anything to regret in the now widespread Christian acceptance of cremation?
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No, for two reasons. Firstly the "space" issue - if everyone was buried then with today's population we'd very quickly need whole cities dedicated just to graves.
Secondly, I just don't see any theological problem with it other than the purely symbolic. If it doesn't actually matter, it shouldn't be required.
I'm with Marvin on this one. Though there are fairly good reasons for having somewhere to focus grief, there is nothing to stop ashes being buried in a churchyard. Or scattered to whatever winds the deceased might have fancied.
But the biggest argument is that of space. there really isn't any room for more buried bodies. I don't want the remains (such as they are) of somebody buried many years ago to be dug up to make room for me! And in any case, many headstones will be moved in the future for "ease of maintenance" as they say.
And really, are the serried ranks of graves, all with identical headstones (as permitted by the local council) any less soulless than a crematorium service? I've been to many services at crematoria, and whilst some might have left something to be desired, that was usually because the one who had died was totally unknown to the person who conducted the service, they not having set foot in a church since their wedding!
Incidentally, most of the funeral services I have attended recently have been for evangelical Christians, and there have been no problems with cremation. A good service in the church they attended, followed by a quiet, family service at the crematorium, conducted, of course, by the same Minister/Pastor.
If God can manage to create our vast, enormous universe, with thousands upon thousands of galaxies, I am sure he can arrange the resurrection of ashes as well as bones.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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MaryO
Shipmate
# 161
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Posted
I am hoping to go quickly and relatively painlessly when I do so, and to be in a condition where lots of my organs may be donated to those in need.
Ideally there won't be much left to bury, and I would like to be cremated with my ashes put into my parish's columbarium.
I think intending to deny the bodily resurrection is sinful, but that has not been the case with the friends and acquaintances who have been cremated.
I agree with whomever said that God is perfectly capable of dealing with cremated bodies in the resurrection.
[ 21. August 2006, 15:26: Message edited by: MaryO ]
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Hanging around off and on since 2001.
Posts: 349 | From: New York City | Registered: May 2001
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Bonaventura
Wise Drunkard
# 1066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
I remember reading about the history of burial and cremation, and some of the descriptions of noxious odours filling churches from the crypts are quite horrifying. It was a real problem in the 19th, as graveyards became full literally to overflowing, and became a serious health hazard.
No doubt inspired by the then fashionable miasma theory of disease which held that noxious odours and rotting matter itself was the cause of contagious disease.
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“I think you are all mistaken in your theological beliefs. The God or Gods of Christianity are not there, whether you call them Father, Son and Holy Spirit or Aunt, Uncle and Holy Cow.” -El Greco
Posts: 473 | From: Et in Arcadia requiesco | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zealot en vacance
Shipmate
# 9795
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Posted
Whatever you do with the body, it eventually returns to the earth. Does orthodox doctrine have a problem with people whose bodies are consumed by fire due to accident or warfare, or even vapourised due to nuclear weapon assault (and is this a reason for the relaxation in Japan?). No, a God who can create from nothing, can resurrect the body likewise.
Biggest objection to the crem. must be the fuel consumption. At least in the UK we live not unadjacent to a large ocean. If the graveyards overflow and the crems are too expensive to run, we can all join Mr Maxwell, and go with a splash...
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He said, "Love one another".
Posts: 2014 | From: Surface of planet Earth | Registered: Jul 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Interesting piece in Saturday's Guardian on the widespread habit of scattering ashes - which seems to be taking over from the actual funeral as the emotional centre for the bereaved.
It's not as if you get lifelong (so to speak) tenure of a grave in any case. Round here it's 50 years (and there are housing developments on former graveyards to prove it).
So if it's a long-term choice between a loving friend or relative scattering me on the waters of the Shimna, or being part of Barrett's infill, I know which I would prefer.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cedd
Shipmate
# 8436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
[qb] (1) It denies SYMBOLICALLY (not actually) the resurrection promise in the context of death being "sleep."
Perhaps it affirms our faith in the spiritual context of the resurrection. I don't see that it symbolically denies the resurrection promise unless one really believes the corpse being interred is a sacrament of sorts.
Except, of course IMHO, the Christian view of resurrection is both spiritual and physical. To paraphrase St Paul our current physcial body is the seed which falls into the ground and gives rise to the resurrection body. In the same way the new Jerusalem is a physical city not a metaphysical one. The Christian "afterlife" (as I view it)is of resurrected people living in a restored world - not disembodied spirits floating in an ethereal heaven. Of course I believe that God is more than capable of overcoming the damage caused to our bodies by cremation but I agree with Fr G. that in "burning the seeds" in this way society is symbolically denying the Christian promise of being physically resurrected.
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Cedd
Churchmanship: This week I am mostly an evangelical, catholic, orthodox with both liberal and illiberal tendancies. Terms and conditions apply.
Posts: 377 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zealot en vacance:
At least in the UK we live not unadjacent to a large ocean. If the graveyards overflow and the crems are too expensive to run, we can all join Mr Maxwell, and go with a splash...
I once poured a drink for a friend who'd just had an extremely unpleasant experience on a fishing boat... I think I'll make my arrangements so as to spare anyone that possibility.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
...
(2) It promotes human violence against the body rather than a natural return to the earth.
...
(4) It is in clear violation of millennia of practice and Christ's own example.
...
So, let's compare cremation with the predominant North American (specifically as practiced under the law of Ontario in my knowledge and experience) practices of embalming and burial.
2) a fair degree of violence is involved. The body is drained of fluids and a significant quantity of mostly formaldehyde is instilled. The resulting toxic item is sealed in a significantly large and heavy box, which is substantially airtight. In many places, ground water concerns require this box to be inside a concrete vault. Any return to earth will take a period of several centuries.
4) Sure is. Other than ancient Egyptian practice, anyway.
There are "earth-friendly" burials, but they are rare, and hard to arrange for - see "ground water concerns". In the classic form, the body goes in a hole in a shroud and you plant a tree on top. Then there's a "return to earth".
But cremation vs. modern commercial burial? There's more return to earth in the former!
(Personally, I opt for organ retrieval, then cremation, and burial of the cremains in a bio-degradable container - a cardboard box will do just fine.)
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
I just attended a Burial in which the ashes were interred in the church's courtyard. No difference there at all that I can see, except to me a far more respectful and intelligent use of space.
I will definitely be cremated. Whether ashes scattered or interred, I'm not sure, although I'm leaning to scattered.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
Yup, you can scatter, bury me, push me off a boat - I really don't care to be honest.
If you do scatter me though can I make a request? Leave me in the jar 'til winter then use me to grit the drive. I want to be useful at least.
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zealot en vacance:
Does orthodox doctrine have a problem with people whose bodies are consumed by fire due to accident or warfare, or even vapourised due to nuclear weapon assault (and is this a reason for the relaxation in Japan?).
The reason for the relaxation in Japan is severe lack of space. Japan is an area the size of California with a population equal to that of the entire United States, and that population is pretty much restricted by mountains to 25% of the land mass. There are cemetaries for cremains on top of office buildings in Japan.
As for myself, I have seen modern crematoriums up close and personal, with remains inside, and it doesn't squick me the way it seems to do with others. The ground water contamination aspect, however, is something that does bother me, both for myself and any descendents. I'd like to be cremated (after a good old-fashioned Mexican-Irish-Italian wake, y'all are invited) and interred somewhere with a nice view at my family's ranch.
[ 21. August 2006, 15:53: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(2) It promotes human violence against the body rather than a natural return to the earth.
But so, and far more effectively, does the practice of allowing harvesting of organs for transplants.
As for a time to mark the death (not quoting the actual words) -- someone talked about lowering the coffin into a grave -- I and those with me found it sufficiently moving when I lowered my Father's ashes into the earth as the priest said the appropriate part of the burial office. And again when we interred my Mother's ashes.
Please do not confuse "how it is done where I live" with the way it has to be, or even with how it is in other places.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(1) It denies SYMBOLICALLY (not actually) the resurrection promise in the context of death being "sleep."
Perhaps it affirms our faith in the spiritual context of the resurrection. I don't see that it symbolically denies the resurrection promise unless one really believes the corpse being interred is a sacrament of sorts.
Except, of course IMHO, the Christian view of resurrection is both spiritual and physical. To paraphrase St Paul our current physcial body is the seed which falls into the ground and gives rise to the resurrection body. In the same way the new Jerusalem is a physical city not a metaphysical one. The Christian "afterlife" (as I view it)is of resurrected people living in a restored world - not disembodied spirits floating in an ethereal heaven. Of course I believe that God is more than capable of overcoming the damage caused to our bodies by cremation but I agree with Fr G. that in "burning the seeds" in this way society is symbolically denying the Christian promise of being physically resurrected.
This is a symbolic meaning you're assigning to cremation; it's not naturally and necessarily tied to it. One could just as easily say that the fire of cremation symbolizes the purgation some believe will happen after death, or one could relate the fire of cremation and the ashes that remain to incense burnt during church services. It seems silly to me to say that burning a body that is sooner or later going to decompose entirely anyway is a symbolic denial of resurrection; why not by the same argument advocate preservation of the bodies of all Christians along the lines of Lenin's tomb?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Cryogenics anyone?
(PS, JH raises another point I'd not thought of - what's the Orthodox take on organ transplants?)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The problem of graveyards filling up is an old one. Hamlet was playing with Yorick's skull because they had to dig him up to make room for Ophelia! Although I prefer burial because of tradition, I don't really see how digging up old graves and stuffing the bones in the corner of the church basement is any less violent than a cremation.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(1) It denies SYMBOLICALLY (not actually) the resurrection promise in the context of death being "sleep."
Not at all. It assumes God, being God, is perfectly capable of bringing the dead back to life and clothing them with a body, just as Ezekiel saw in his "valley of bones." In the case of cremation, the bones He has to work with are considerably smaller, that's all, merely a degree of scale--not something God need worry about.
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(2) It promotes human violence against the body rather than a natural return to the earth.
It absolutely does not. Violence? How in the world? What about victims of fires and certain other disasters that result in bodily destruction? I'd say these poor people suffer a pretty damn conclusive "natural return to the earth" (and certainly violence) and yet I've not heard of their eternal state or state of their remains labeled "unnatural" in the sense you're using.
Cremation promotes no violence whatsoever. It promotes a method of disposal of human remains that is clean, quick, saving of space, and in modern times returns to the grieving friends or family the ashy remains of the deceased for them to dispose of however they wish. It's a more emotionally wholesome method than burying, with its horrific claustrophic connotations and pop culture of zombies and grave robbers and all sorts of graveyard uncleanliness.
Cremation no more promotes violence than medical amputation promotes torture.
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(3) It makes honouring the dead, the body and the rituals of grief associated with the grave much more problematic.
Nope, not even close. It actually promotes honoring the dead, because the family can scatter the ashes almost wherever they like, whereas burial can only occur in a few select areas, and requires purchase of burial lots, coffins, the services of mortuary professionals, etc.
In my father's case, he had joined the Neptune Society so after the initial joining payment, there was no further necessary expenditures to process his body, which we as a grieving family were grateful.
We scattered his ashes (per his request) in a secluded valley on some property he had loved. We can visit him whenever we like, just as those who bury their dead can visit the gravesite. To counter your assertion, there was *no* lessening of ability to process through our rituals of grief. He had wanted to be cremated, and we were glad we could honor his request.
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
(4) It is in clear violation of millennia of practice and Christ's own example.
A "clear violation" of whose practice? Which culture? I would imagine there are cultures which cremate their dead and have done so for "millenia."
Nope, an unjustified association with your reference to Christ's example. AFAIK, cremation was not part of Jewish culture at the time of Christ, so it would make sense He would not engage in it. Neither did He eat pork or shellfish, so are we to use the cultural template of his time as our own? I don't think you mean that, but that's what you're saying: "Jesus didn't do it so we shouldn't do it." When it comes to moral/spiritual/religious behavior, then Jesus is our template for all things, but for non-essentials, we are not constrained to mimic Him in all things, otherwise no man would ever be anything than an unmarried Jewish carpenter and itinerant preacher.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I wouldn't have much of a problem with this thread if Fr greg had stuck with the tradition argument. Instead he decided to imply that Episcopalians, and everyone else that allows cremation, don't believe in the resurrection and that we don't respect or honor the dead and are violent to their bodies. Not the most sensitive of arguments if you ask me.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
My father was cremated. After the funeral we all went to the crematorium the same as we would have gone to the cemetary if he were buried. The military ceremony (because he was a veteran, you know, honor guard, flag folding and presentation, playing taps and firing salute) was done there, and my mother's cousin who's a minister lead some prayers (the actual funeral was a Jewish ceremony, but we let Cliff slip some Christian stuff in there just to make him happy). Hardly what I would call cold or inhuman.
After we got the ashes back, my mother put them on top of a cabinate in her TV room, along with a phot and some objects, and I visit whenever I'm in her house. Far more frequently than I would visit a cemetary, in fact I've _never_ visted a grave in a cemetary, not even my granparents.
When my mother dies, my brother and I will find somewhere to have their ashes intered where they can be together, which is what my father wanted.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
According to this website, the Greek Orthodox are okay with organ donation (mostly), but not donating one's body to science.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
I suspect Fr. Gregory is making a stronger statement than he actually believes in order to foster debate. However, count me as a major supporter of cremation. I hope to be cremated and interred in my church's columbarium, which is a lovely garden courtyard next to the playground. I don't think for a minute that my church's position on this is at odds with respect for bodily resurrection. I'm sure God will be able to raise up whomever he wants, no matter what form their body is in. Matter can neither br created or destroyed, so it's all out there somewhere, wherever it is.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
According to this website, the Greek Orthodox are okay with organ donation (mostly), but not donating one's body to science.
Wow, Laura. Piecemealing a body out sounds rather violent and unnatural compared to keeping it all in one place.
[ 21. August 2006, 17:36: Message edited by: Scot ]
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I've come across some very unnatural and violent transplant surgeons.
Vicious brutes, the lot of them.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
I have no objection to cremation on theological grounds. My Mum wants to be cremated because she doesn't want to find herself waking up in a box under all of that earth (she can't work out how to call people on her mobile phone).
I don't fancy it for myself based on ecological reasons; it take a lot of power. My desire is to be wrapped in a white sheet, buried in a cardboard coffin and have a tree planted on top of me. My decomposoition would fertilise the tree. woodland burial
Others have already given a very clear outline of the counter arguments. I don't feel any need to repeat them.
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
... does anyone here think that there is anything to regret in the now widespread Christian acceptance of cremation?
No.
I understand revulsion to what I gather is the common British practice of having services at crematoria while the body slides into the flames (it all sounds very off-putting), but in the United States, cremation isn't public and the ashes -- usually in an urn -- are brought to the church(or to an undertaker's) for an appropriate memorial service. Columbaria make it very easy to visit the grave, with less hiking.
Overcrowding in graveyards has always been a problem, as others have noted. It's going to get much worse now that graves aren't "recycled," as they were in centuries past. The sort of misplaced devotion to the physical body that leaves families spending small fortunes on embalming, expensive coffins, and small concrete bunkers to protect them from ever rotting leads to vast cities of the dead.
I don't have a problem with the idea of being returned to dust in the matter of a few minutes, after any usable parts are removed, rather than over the course of years. I know I won't be there to take it all in, but I don't just like the idea of rotting.
Most people don't like the idea of rotting, which helps to account for the fashion for embalming. What they don't realize is that the sealed coffins lead to anaerobic bacteria doing all the dirty work of putrefaction, and (according to an article in The Wall Street Journal some years back), the results are far more loathesome than those achieved by just sticking the box in the dirt. (It's not easy being green.)
And thank you, mdijon, for your comment about "Christ's own example." Brilliant!
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Lord of all Llamas
Shipmate
# 11665
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
The Orthodox Church is, as far as I know, the only church left that forbids cremation, (except where the law forbids burial, eg., Japan).
This was the historic position in Judaism and Christianity until the 19th Century. The only exceptions were the use of cremation for criminals or those who had seriously infringed the Law in the Old Testament.
So indefatigible was Christian opposition to cremation that it had been rendered extinct in Rome by the 4th century. In times when pagan Romans left the bodies of outcasts and criminals to rot by the roadside, Christians made a huge impact not only by burying their own dead but ALL the dead where they could.
This remained the position until the 19th century when agnostics, atheists and other freethinkers promoted cremation. Protestant Christians acquiesced first ... indeed PECUSA (as it was then) built the first crematorium to be used by a church.
Rome condemned the practice no less than 5 times in the 1890's only to relent in 1963 with precious little theological justification. The Orthodox alone have remained opposed for various reasons:-
(1) It denies SYMBOLICALLY (not actually) the resurrection promise in the context of death being "sleep."
(2) It promotes human violence against the body rather than a natural return to the earth.
(3) It makes honouring the dead, the body and the rituals of grief associated with the grave much more problematic.
(4) It is in clear violation of millennia of practice and Christ's own example.
There are other reasons but that will do for now.
Apart from the Orthodox ... does anyone here think that there is anything to regret in the now widespread Christian acceptance of cremation?
I should have thought the church would be better to concern itself with helping stop the needless killing of each other, rather than worrying about what happens to the remains of the departed...
Just a perspective thing I guess.
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-LS
"For as long as space endures, for as long as living beings remain,
until then may I too abide, to dispel the misery of the world"
~Shantideva
Posts: 113 | From: Bounded in a nutshell | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
woodland burial
I quite fancy this, but there's no sign of it happening over here. It's virtually impossible to be buried anywhere other than in a municipal cemetery.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
...
As for a time to mark the death (not quoting the actual words) -- someone talked about lowering the coffin into a grave -- I and those with me found it sufficiently moving when I lowered my Father's ashes into the earth as the priest said the appropriate part of the burial office. And again when we interred my Mother's ashes.
...
I have never been to a funeral where they actually lowered the casket.
The casket, in my experience, is placed over the grave by the poll-bearers and left there until after everyone has left. It is then that the workers lower the casket and fill the grave.
Is this not other people's experience?
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I can't think of any particular reason myself to prefer burial over cremation. As Paul says the seed which is sown is not the plant that is harvested come resurrection, so we can be assured that our resurrection bodies are some form of new creation. Which is also reassurance, I'm sure, for those who have been killed and had their bodies disposed of by being burnt, or killed by fire, or blown apart by explosion or crash.
It could be a consideration when coming to scattering ashes that mourners might have nowhere to return to, or a physical monument marking the actual remains of a loved one. But that isn't quite the same thing, necessarily, as losing the body of the loved one - say through going missing, or accident at sea - where there couldn't be a funeral, and a choice over what to do with the remains.
And it could be argued that being safe from the elements of nature in a crem is a less significant realism of 'earth to earth, ashes to ashes etc'; as opposed to standing at the graveside in full face of the sun or rain.
But theologically I can't imagine there being a strong justification for restricting disposal of remains to burial. I can imagine that once upon a time people might have reasoned, in a literal-minded way, that for a raised body to be possible one had to be consigned whole to the grave. But I can't see that either as being a justifiable premise on which to base a continuing tradition.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
...
As for a time to mark the death (not quoting the actual words) -- someone talked about lowering the coffin into a grave -- I and those with me found it sufficiently moving when I lowered my Father's ashes into the earth as the priest said the appropriate part of the burial office. And again when we interred my Mother's ashes.
...
I have never been to a funeral where they actually lowered the casket.
The casket, in my experience, is placed over the grave by the poll-bearers and left there until after everyone has left. It is then that the workers lower the casket and fill the grave.
Is this not other people's experience?
Maybe custom varies a lot? In every funeral involving a coffin or ashes casket I've attended, they box has always gone into the grave at the beginning of the ceremony. (Unless something different was requested by relatives.)
The general thing here seems to be that the coffin is walked to the graveside, the pall-bearers then removing the planks, and lowering the coffin into the grave-space on tapes. Some folks might wait until the actual committal prayer to do the lowering.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I have never been to a funeral where they actually lowered the casket.
One of the interesting things emerging here is the variations between our various nations.
In France, the casket [GB: coffin] is usually placed on trestles for the committal, then everybody watches it being lowered into the tomb, after which they file past and make some sort of gesture which depends on their faith tradition - I usually get people to throw in petals or seeds.
Meanwhile, I've never been involved in a cremation service which wasn't focused around the coffin, rather than the urn.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
Tradition does not necessarily make a thing right or appropriate.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
I'm not sure if cremation is a better idea. I don't see that it's necessarily worse just because it's 'new'. Perhaps if crematoria had existed back then, in the way they have for some years now, it might have affected their experience of theology in the way it does now. Just as our practice of science in today's world affects our theological approaches to other things, say, the creation accounts.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
My favourite bit (if one is allowed to have a favourite bit) of French funerals is when the priest or pastor says the final prayers, everyone turns away, and, at that point, the pallbearers whip out bright green boiler suits from behind the nearest tombstone, slip them over their suits and start shovelling like there's no tomorrow before heading off to the next job. Maybe that's the way everyone does it, but I had always imagined that someone filled in the hole after all the mourners had left. As with most Christian rites, I find that for me the mechanics always get in the way of the transcendent.
I also attended one Laotian funeral, with an open casket, and a rather distressing moment (for Westerners) when the mother of the deceased picked up the corpse...
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Eutychus
No, but you better have a damn good justification if you are overturning 4000 years, at least from where I am standing.
Concerning crematoria back way back .... cremation was de rigeur in the Empire at the time of Christ .... amongst pagans (except Egyptians) but not Jews and Christians.
[ 21. August 2006, 18:51: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
I remember reading about the history of burial and cremation, and some of the descriptions of noxious odours filling churches from the crypts are quite horrifying. It was a real problem in the 19th, as graveyards became full literally to overflowing, and became a serious health hazard.
That was my understanding as well - and I can only imagine what that could be like today (if indeed we could find a place to bury people in the first place). I understand the points which Fr Gregory noted, and do greatly appreciate the symbolism, but I believe that purely practical concerns are why there is no opposition to cremation on the part of most sister churches.
I seldom give it much thought, but, now that the idea was stimulated, I'm not sure that 'being ashes' is more revolting than decomposition.
(I've said, in recent years, that, though I wish a dignified funeral service, I'd like to have my ashes scattered in one of the London parks. Whether that is legal I have no idea.) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I notice that few here who support cremation have at all addressed the issue of why some churches suddenly got a new and better idea ... but not until the close of the 19th century after 4000 years of unbroken tradition.
Probably for the same reason that they got electricity and flush toilets -- they beat the heck out of trying to read by candlelight and crapping in outhouses. Similarly, cremation is neater, cleaner and less of a pain in the ass.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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