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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is the Pope Danish?
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
I think the pope is going to maybe stir up the Muslim Wrath like the Danish Newspaper did. I am curious what will happen and how this will be resolved since he is viewed as a holy man by many...head of the Catholic Church on earth and he is extremely intelligent. He surely thought much, prayed much, before making his remarks.
What do you think of this? And also, why do you think he said this?
From the BBC News article linked to below:
"Muslim religious leaders have accused Pope Benedict XVI of quoting anti-Islamic remarks during a speech at a German university this week.
Questioning the concept of holy war, he quoted a 14th-Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things."
Pope Stirs Up Muslim Anger
[eta: One more question to my OP. Thx.]
[ 08. May 2007, 01:48: Message edited by: Professor Kirke ]
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
Okay, I will let this lame-titled thread drop the bottom. Prediction: somebody will post a duplicate thread somewhere else and much discussion will follow.
I am done now and will...get me coat. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[eta: am I the only one left scratching my head?]
[ 14. September 2006, 23:30: Message edited by: duchess ]
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Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
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Posted
Give it time duchess, it's only half an hour since you posted the OP.
FWIW, I agree with the comments you quoted in the OP - it is hard to see anything good having come out of what the Prophet said or did.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Predictably, the successor of St Peter rocks. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) The full text of his speech is here: "Faith, Reason and the University" (German audio here).
Islam has certainly become a major worry in the Vatican, as it is a major worry for the current pope. We can expect an overall tougher line in the future. Read this analysis of Benedict XVI's thoughts by Samir Khalil Samir, S.J. (a name to watch): Chiesa Article. The basic change in attitude has been expressed by absorbing the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue into the larger Pontifical Council for Culture. This is squarely aimed at Islam, recognizing that Islam does not distinguish sufficiently between religion and society. Rather than to dialogue with Muslims about religion directly, the main effort will now be to come to a common agreement about society first - a society which will allow coexistence without religious subservience. This also means that we will hear increasing complaints about the lack of reciprocity, i.e., that Muslims enjoy such a society in the West, but many Christians do not enjoy such a society in Muslim countries.
And if it comes down to that, expect the RCC to be the last bulwark against Eurabia. Certainly there's no fight left in the seculars...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
Okay, I will let this lame-titled thread drop the bottom. Prediction: somebody will post a duplicate thread somewhere else and much discussion will follow.
Well you sure got that right. Perhaps you are a prophet ....
Here's my comment from my duplicate OP. "My own initial reaction is that the full address will repay some detailed study (there was much in it which I found illuminating and sensible). However, the BBC report shows how difficult it is becoming to discuss anything controversial seriously without the risk of instant, polarising, reaction."
Like IngoB, I read what the man said and my initial reaction was also very positive. I'd say "read the address, not the headlines".
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
I think it proves how dangerous sophistry can be to the mission of the church. The sophist seeks to display his cleverness in the rarified environment of the academy without a thought for the unsophisticated who will seek to display their displeasure in the streets of Cairo.
Respect Duchess! I've come over to this thread to offer my penny's worth
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
They can express their displeasure all they want. The truth is the truth. No lies for an easy life. Speak while you can.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I think there seem to be an awful lot of muslims who want to stir things up (as there clearly were with the cartoons).
quote:
code:
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+ <--- Muhammed
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[ 15. September 2006, 08:05: Message edited by: Custard. ]
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Good on Papa Ratzi! At first I though this was a typical, Prince Philip-esque gaffe ie:"What you heard is not what I meant to say", but then I read the full text and the context. Apparently the Pakistani Lower House have passed a motion of censure...watch this space.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
They can express their displeasure all they want. The truth is the truth. No lies for an easy life. Speak while you can.
Father Gregory, I agree with you. However, what I don't agree with is the overly sophisticated and highly nuanced language that is often used: Rowan Williams is particularly guilty of this. Truth doesn't have to be delivered in academic - and therefore somewhat inaccessible - terms. We have to remember that the language we use is supposed to communicate truth as clearly as possible; not obscure it behind sophisticated rhetoric and unnecessary complexity.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Online dictionary definition of sophistry.
m.t-tomb, do you really believe that the pope is indulging in "a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone"? Or perhaps you are applying a different definition of sophistry? After a more considered reading, it's pretty clear to me that BXVI is seeking the exact opposite of the above definition of sophistry.
If there is sophistry here, why could the boot not be on the other foot? The Pope attacked nobody in his talk. If the "unsophisticated" display displeasure on the streets of Cairo or Ankara, following this most reasonable of talks, who or what is winding them up? Is it not those who would prefer them to have an entirely negative view of Christianity? Linking their grievances to a "demonised" enemy and his "false religion" cohort? What good does that do?
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Hazey*Jane
Ship's Biscuit Crumbs
# 8754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
code:
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+ <--- Muhammed
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What are you trying to achieve with that?
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
Picking up on Barnabas's thoughts, I have to say I'm getting a little bit tired of the perception that we must avoid criticising other faiths at all costs. It's dishonest unless we're true pluralists - that is, that Christianity is neither truer nor better in any way than any other faith.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I agree with Barnabas62. I did not at all find the Holy Father's speech to be sophistic or unduly complex ... challenging yes, as much to the inheritors of Duns Scotus as to those of Ibn Hazn.
Do we theologise from our "belly" (that is from our "passions") or from an enlightened nous? If an extremist rabble in Cairo or Lahore prefer the former to the latter should we exchange truth for platitudes? Most certainly not.
In 1977 the notorious "Myth of God Incarnate" hit the streets of Cairo in an Arabic text within a few short months of its publication in the west. The then Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, expressed surprise at the reaction. Aside from his naivete the work itself was a propaganda "god"-send to the rising class of populist Islamists. What characterises the Pope's contribution here is that it is neither naive nor comfortable reading for many Christians in the west and these self styled Islamic propagandists. Rather, it is masterly and timely.
There will always be outrage but first there must be truth.
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Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
What are you trying to achieve with that?
It was meant to be a semi-humourous self-referential comment that while I think a lot of the blame is attributable to the rabble-rousers in the Islamic world, Christians, myself included, often aren't much better by the way that we display so little sensitivity.
On the other hand, of course, sometimes a lack of sensitivity is the right quality to display.
It was also meant to be mocking the Islamic stupidly legalistic extension of the Quranic prohibition of images. Oh no, I'm going to be sentenced to death for drawing poor ASCII art and putting the world's most common first name next to it.
Oh, plus I'm tired.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Online dictionary definition of sophistry.
m.t-tomb, do you really believe that the pope is indulging in "a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone"? Or perhaps you are applying a different definition of sophistry?
In a sense the ambiguity of my terminology and use of allusion is precisely my point. I was picking up on the Pope's praise of greek philosophy with the word sophistry. Incidentally, I disagree with the definition that you have provided; I was using the word in the original sense of the word in Ancient Greek culture meaning: one of a class of public teachers of rhetoric or philosophy known for their wisdom and skill with words.
quote:
[b]If there is sophistry here, why could the boot not be on the other foot? The Pope attacked nobody in his talk. If the "unsophisticated" display displeasure on the streets of Cairo or Ankara, following this most reasonable of talks, who or what is winding them up? Is it not those who would prefer them to have an entirely negative view of Christianity? Linking their grievances to a "demonised" enemy and his "false religion" cohort? What good does that do? [/QB]
My point was that the unsophisticated - which I consider to be the majority of the Islamic world - have no love of wisdom or skilled reasoning. They merely want to get angry at the surface meaning of the Pope's words without giving any dues consideration to the flow of his argument or the context of his statements concerning jihad.
So my objection is this: the vast majority of the Islamic world is made up of poorly educated and ignorant fundamentalists who would be able to understand the Pope for toffee. This is why i think we need to careful about what we say to the Islamic world. It's not because sophisticated reasoning is wrong per se; it's because Muslim fundamentalists have no interest - or even the ability - to think in a sophisticated way.
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Added to which, the quote tags were meant to be exploring the relationship between quoting someone else expressing an opinion (as +Rome did) and expressing that opinion oneself.
Because if quoting an opinion is wrong, then reporting the quote is presumably also wrong. If quoting is wrong, and what I did was wrong, then what you did in quoting it was also wrong, as is the action of everyone's computers in displaying the page.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Online dictionary definition of sophistry.
m.t-tomb, do you really believe that the pope is indulging in "a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone"? Or perhaps you are applying a different definition of sophistry?
In a sense the ambiguity of my terminology and use of allusion is precisely my point. I was picking up on the Pope's praise of greek philosophy with the word sophistry. Incidentally, I disagree with the definition that you have provided; I was using the word in the original sense of the word in Ancient Greek culture meaning: one of a class of public teachers of rhetoric or philosophy known for their wisdom and skill with words.
quote:
If there is sophistry here, why could the boot not be on the other foot? The Pope attacked nobody in his talk. If the "unsophisticated" display displeasure on the streets of Cairo or Ankara, following this most reasonable of talks, who or what is winding them up? Is it not those who would prefer them to have an entirely negative view of Christianity? Linking their grievances to a "demonised" enemy and his "false religion" cohort? What good does that do?
My point was that the unsophisticated - which I consider to be the majority of the Islamic world - have no love of wisdom or skilled reasoning. They merely want to get angry at the surface meaning of the Pope's words without giving any dues consideration to the flow of his argument or the context of his statements concerning jihad.
So my objection is this: the vast majority of the Islamic world is made up of poorly educated and ignorant fundamentalists who wouldn't actually be able to understand the Pope for toffee. This is why I think we (Christians) need to careful about what we say to - and about - the Islamic world. It's not because sophisticated reasoning is wrong per se; it's because Muslim fundamentalists have no interest - or even the ability - to think in a sophisticated way. Christian thought and radicalised Islamic thought have no comparison.
[arrgh! bad code moment]
[not one to disagree...}
[ 15. September 2006, 19:24: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Forgive me, have I got this right? The head of the organisation that invented the Crusade is quoting an Emperor of a Christian state that readily used violence and occasionally carried icons into battle about how wrong it is to mix religion and coercive violence?
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear m_t. tomb
But isn't that a bit like saying that the South is full of red-necked Baptists so we must be careful what we say about gays? I think it is also a dangerous characterisation of Islam as ONLY comprising irrational bigots (although I know that is NOT what you mean and your intentions are honourable). I just think that we must always speak the truth. It doesn't always have to be in "cartoon speak." Plus, remember that there are SOME in Islam who are spoiling for a fight and they will always find something to use.
Dear Dyfrig
Yes, the irony of that hadn't passed me by either .... also the Crusades come to mind.
[ 15. September 2006, 09:12: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
So my objection is this: the vast majority of the Islamic world is made up of poorly educated and ignorant fundamentalists who wouldn't actually be able to understand the Pope for toffee. This is why I think we (Christians) need to careful about what we say to - and about - the Islamic world. It's not because sophisticated reasoning is wrong per se; it's because Muslim fundamentalists have no interest - or even the ability - to think in a sophisticated way. Christian thought and radicalised Islamic thought have no comparison.
The pope was delivering a theological and philosophical talk to academics at the University Regensburg where he used to be a professor. He who cannot deal with "sophisticated reasoning" has no business judging a lecture at an university. Agitators who misuse such material to deceive the uneducated are responsible for the reaction themselves.
But let's be clear about this: the pope was surely aware that his words would echo not only in the lecture room, but also in the world. I think this was a trial balloon, floated in the most deniable of circumstances. Let's hope we are in for more of the same. It's high time to challenge the combination of intolerance and radicalism towards others and whinging about being victimized themselves which characterizes much of Muslim "public policy".
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Forgive me, have I got this right? The head of the organisation that invented the Crusade is quoting an Emperor of a Christian state that readily used violence and occasionally carried icons into battle about how wrong it is to mix religion and coercive violence?
The First Crusade was "invented" by Pope Urban II after an urgent request by Byzantine emperor Alexius I who was getting overrun by Seljuk Turks. It was largely a defensive measure, and the way for it had been prepared by the sacking of the pilgrimage hospice in Jerusalem and the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 1009 by Caliph al-Hakim. That the crusades ended up being not perfectly just wars is of course regrettable, but hardly surprising. But one can hardly claim that these clashes were started by the Christians.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Posted by IngoB: quote:
The pope was delivering a theological and philosophical talk to academics at the University Regensburg where he used to be a professor. He who cannot deal with "sophisticated reasoning" has no business judging a lecture at an university. Agitators who misuse such material to deceive the uneducated are responsible for the reaction themselves.
But the original assertion from Father Gregory was that the pope was speaking truth. I have no objection to what the pope had to say about the divine logos in relation to the irrationality of certain parts of Islam and Islamic thought; if that is what he was saying.
What I was suggesting is this: if the pope wishes to communicate truth about - or even to - the Islamic world he'd better choose his words wisely. Of course that doesn't mean that some within the Ummah won't read something offensive into what he says. I know that the giving offense isn't always wrong; Jesus did it often and well. But what he should do is give due consideration as to how what he says can - and inevitably will - be transalated by the radicalised Islamic mindset. He needs to careful that his statements contain the unmistakeable challenge of truth and not the ambiguity of the academy not because sophistry is wrong but because the intrinsic superiority of Christian truth needs to displayed clearly and openly.
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Zealot en vacance
Shipmate
# 9795
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It's high time to challenge the combination of intolerance and radicalism towards others and whinging about being victimized themselves which characterizes much of Muslim "public policy".
Tell it, Ingo. This assymetry seems to be inbuilt to islam, particularly with respect to judaism and christianity. I would be glad to learn differently, but all I have read confirms that it derives from core doctrine.
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He said, "Love one another".
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Rather like IngoB, I believe that the Pope did choose his words, and the location for their delivery, carefully. Not as an act of provocation but as a test of the water.
It looks like the "hair-trigger" reactions are growing. The world is in a hell of a mess if what the Pope said is considered unspeakable, simply for fear of the reaction it might provoke. The "hair-trigger" reactions are themselves a sign of a deep, deep malaise. I'm a peaceful soul, but not an appeaser of the unreasonable. I'm rather hoping BXVI is the same.
My wife observed this morning that reactions like this are normally associated with people who are "way up themselves". Inelegant but not a bad summary. I'd say the reactions are disproportionate. Something similar happened over a recent cricket match - and the reaction then was "way over the top" as well.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Forgive me, have I got this right? The head of the organisation that invented the Crusade is quoting an Emperor of a Christian state that readily used violence and occasionally carried icons into battle about how wrong it is to mix religion and coercive violence?
The First Crusade was "invented" by Pope Urban II after an urgent request by Byzantine emperor Alexius I who was getting overrun by Seljuk Turks. It was largely a defensive measure, and the way for it had been prepared by the sacking of the pilgrimage hospice in Jerusalem and the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 1009 by Caliph al-Hakim. That the crusades ended up being not perfectly just wars is of course regrettable, but hardly surprising. But one can hardly claim that these clashes were started by the Christians.
And thus, ineluctably, do we move to the morality of the playground. But Miss! He started it!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
I read the Pope's homily.
The Pope speaks about the Hellenes. By speaking thus he does great injustice to them. You will ask why the injustice, since he speaks so highly of the Greeks. He might be speaking about the Greeks, but the things he attributes to the Greeks are not Greek.
He speaks about logos being reason. He does not say anything about John writing in Ephesus, the city of Heraclitos, the first who put forth the notion of logos. He does not say anything about the centuries of Greek cultivating the concept of logos, from Heraclitos in the late sixth century BC, to the Stoics of the Hellenistic times, to Saint John the Apostle, to Justin the Martyr, to Maximos the Confessor.
In a way, the Pope is bound by the same spirit that gave birth to the secular civilization of our times. He speaks about Christianity being retained in "Europe" as opposed to the "East", while he does not say that it is secularism that got developed in "Europe", but not in the "East".
He attributes today's mistakes in a few men's opinions, yet he cannot point out the spirit that gave birth to these men's opinions.
He speaks about God being transcedent, as an Islamic over-emphasis. He reminds me of something the Archbishop of Albania, Anastasios, a man who has worked with the Muslims for decades, has said. Orthodoxy is much closer to Islam, than it is to Western Christianity. The Pope fails to understand the East and the influence Christianity had on Islam.
It is a pity that he starts his ecumenical call by approaching the Lutherans, because he came to know them, but he stops that open-up, by rejecting the Muslims, whom he does not know.
The Pope is Danish only in appearances. In truth, he is another Western Christian, as Roman Catholic as those Popes that gave birth to the schism of the Church.
[ 15. September 2006, 10:56: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Suggesting that, considered in context, a Byzantine Emperor was unlikely to be straightforwardly advocating smiley happy Christian pacifism against a bellicose Islam is not engaging in 'the morality of the playground'. It is stressing that the Pope's sources may not do the work he wants them to.
I've always tended to disagree with whatCardinal Ratzinger/ Pope Benedict has to say about Islam. It is worth pointing out, however, that within the breadth of Catholic theology there are legitimate and orthodox positions which are far more optimistic about what Christians have in common with Islam (and people of other faiths and none). I suspect this may boil down to questions of the relationship between grace and nature, faith and natural reason, and the extent to which both grace and unthematic faith are possible outside the visible boundaries of the Church. The Augustinian Pope has particular views on these questions which condition his approach to inter-faith issues.
[ 15. September 2006, 11:00: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw Dwarf ]
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Cusanus
Ship's Schoolmaster
# 692
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
The Pope ...is another Western Christian, as Roman Catholic as those Popes that gave birth to the schism of the Church.
And our next item is an expose of ursine defecatory habits in the forest regions.
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"You are qualified," sa fotherington-tomas, "becos you can frankly never pass an exam and have 0 branes. Obviously you will be a skoolmaster - there is no other choice."
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Andreas
I'm sorry but this really isn't really about the pre-Christian Hellenes; it's about all fundamentalists who despsre rationality in favour of a God who is capricious and utterly inscrutable in his will. B16 has a good point. Try not to be so sensitive and defensive please!
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
You have a point about Muslim fundamentalism. However, I am not going to use what I consider a completely mistaken homily, just because the Pope seems to agree that Muslim fundamentalism is "bad".
Like you said, we have to stand up for truth, while we can.
The Pope attributed fundamentalism to Islam as a whole. He said that while the earlier sunnas were more peaceful, later, when Mohammed gained power, he became more aggressive. Is this an argument against historical Islam? The Pope seems to think so.
However, this is flawed thinking. It's like saying that historical Christianity is fundamentalist, because, although the bible is pro-peace in some books, in other places, when the writer belongs to a community in power, there is much violence.
I think that he does great injustice to Islam, quoting things he does not understand.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
I have to agree with Andreas. I find the idea of 'Christian Europe' in some current circles very disturbing. I think it is theologically flawed - really just a high-brow version of all those US evangelicals who harp on about being God's nation; dominionism with Mozart rather than bluegrass as a backing track - and flows seemlessly into a scary Right-wing political agenda.
[ 15. September 2006, 11:39: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw Dwarf ]
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Andreas
I would go along with most of that but I do think that there is an absolute qualitative difference between Christianity and Islam in one important respect ... to which the Pope alluded.
Mohammed was not a prophet of peace, absolutely ... Jesus was. (He's more than than that but I am occupying a smaller christological space for this argument).
So whereas when Christians become cruel others can say "is this in the spirit of Jesus?" and be met with a thundering "NO!" in Islam the answer is much more difficult. Can one justifiably kill humanely in defence of Allah and the Ummah? It's a very different understanding of martyrdom and the use of force for sure and it is not, I believe, unconnected with the second phase of Mohammed's work and character. B16's comment is, therefore, legitimate historically.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
when Christians become cruel others can say "is this in the spirit of Jesus?" and be met with a thundering "NO!"
Has this been true at all times, by everyone, always, Father?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
In the Muslim history there are centuries of peace. The people that lived during those times experienced the wholeness of the Koran as a peaceful way. Therefore, to them, the answer was easy.
You say that in theory Christianity is peaceful. However, Christianity is not judged by Christ, but by Christians. Not individual Christians, but by the way entire societies experienced the Christian message. Was the wholeness of the gospel unknown to those Christian societies that cultivated violence? I say no. This means that the Christian gospel was not as clear to them, as it is to us.
The Spirit of Jesus has been abused by many. We know it. They thought otherwise. Eastern Orthodoxy managed to live in peace with Islam for centuries and we even got to influence Islam on a great degree. Perhaps the West should learn a lesson by the people that lived in the East during those times.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Father Gregory, I think charity demands that we accept in good faith the account the majority of Muslims give of how they read the Koran. There is a sense in which the reading of a holy book by people outside of the faith community whose book it is will never 'get it' - think of all those secularist websites going on about 'contradictions in the Bible'.
But even if the Pope was correct, does that necessarily mean he had to say it? The scriptural injunction is to speak the truth in love. Perhaps love demands not making sweeping comments about Islam at a time when many Muslims in Europe are feeling incredibly victimised and where there are all too many unpleasant people around who would be eager to take the Pope's words as a green light for bigotry. Personally I believe the Jewish religion to be incomplete in its knowledge of the truth. For much of European history, to make that (abstractly true) belief a programmatic theme in one's preaching would have been to be criminally complicit in persecution.
The problem is, you see, that there is no such thing as abstract Islam floating around in some Platonic ether, blissfully removed from human relationships, which can be the object of dispassionate debate. Islam exists only in as much as there are Muslim people. And once 'Islam' becomes one of Europe's major problems we are uncomfortably close to suggesting that a good proportion of my neighbours are themselves a problem.
[ 15. September 2006, 12:01: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw Dwarf ]
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insert amusing sig. here
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
And thus, ineluctably, do we move to the morality of the playground. But Miss! He started it!
If George Bush and Tony Blair had retained that morality we wouldn't have got into the mess we got into in Iraq.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
The Pope says in effect that those who do not see things his way are unreasonable. How is that different (especially since he links reason to God) from the fundamentalists' saying that those who do not see things their way are godless?
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
In a way, the Pope is bound by the same spirit that gave birth to the secular civilization of our times. He speaks about Christianity being retained in "Europe" as opposed to the "East", while he does not say that it is secularism that got developed in "Europe", but not in the "East".
Were you reading a different speech? His "second" and "third" stages of "de-Hellenization" are blamed on Western Europe.
quote:
the Archbishop of Albania, Anastasios, a man who has worked with the Muslims for decades, has said. Orthodoxy is much closer to Islam, than it is to Western Christianity.
That just goes to show that even an Orthodox bishop can talk bollocks.
quote:
It is a pity that he starts his ecumenical call by approaching the Lutherans, because he came to know them, but he stops that open-up, by rejecting the Muslims, whom he does not know.
I hate to break the news to you like this, but the Pope is a Christian bishop. The Lutherans are Christians, even if according to the Pope they heretical ones. The Muslims are not Christians, even if, according to the same Pope, they worship God and have recieved some light from God.
In the normal usage of the word in English (maybe we misborrowed it from Greek, but it has a life of its own in English now) Roman Catholics talking to Lutherans (or Orthodox, or Baptists, or any other Christian denomination) is "ecumenical", but RCs talking to Muslims is not "ecumenical", its "inter-faith" (horrid bastard word).
quote:
In truth, he is another Western Christian, as Roman Catholic as those Popes that gave birth to the schism of the Church.
Gosh. Who'd a'thunk it?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
The Pope says in effect that those who do not see things his way are unreasonable. How is that different (especially since he links reason to God) from the fundamentalists' saying that those who do not see things their way are godless?
He is saying that God is faithful to his character and will as revealed in Christian Holy Scripture and the person of his Son. He is saying that God will not 'change the rules' by acting in contradiction to what he has reasonably revealed of himself in Scripture and ultimately in Chrst who is the eternal logos. I think that's a perfectly reasonable thing to say for a pope: I just wish he'd said it a bit more clearly. But, on the other hand, I'm now beginning to appreciate how deep his words really are, and how profoundly affirmative of the gospel of Christ incarnate they are in the face of the horrid monism of Islam.
[ 15. September 2006, 12:41: Message edited by: m.t-tomb ]
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
What do you think of this? And also, why do you think he said this?
I think the key is to be found by clicking on the 'exerpts' link on the BBC webpage you provided. The pope opens by saying:
quote:
It is a moving experience for me to be back again in the university and to be able once again to give a lecture at this podium.
It was an academic lecture and the context of the quote that has been cited as offensive is just, well, not offensive. I don't understand how anyone reading even the exerpts can possibly be offended. It's not even remotely Danish paperesque.
But then I will readily confess, at the risk of sticking out my neck and losing my head in the process, that I am getting bored and tired of hearing how angry the Muslim world is at almost anything that is said which is not praiseworthy with regard to their faith.
I have no idea whether Muslims really are angry. Most of them might not give a shit what the pope says. I'm just sick of the reports that "the Muslim world is angry" [again]. The media should start examining the way they report stuff: I'd just love to know who was the first to stir the pot on this occasion. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear DOD
So it all boils down to Muslims know the Quran best and was it a timely intervention?
Your first point might convince if it were not for the fact that the military engagements of Mohmammed are an accepted historical record. It is not a matter then of doubt that Mohammed wielded the word as an instrument of God. I do not know of a Muslim who can, with integrity, say ... "well we'll skip over that bit."
Was it timely? Personally, I think, yes. Muslims do need to know why we (some of us at any rate) have a problem with Islam. We don't take to the streets when we are on the receiving end. If the violence is to be stopped it must be identified, assessed and its root traced. If that strategy increases violence in the short term that might be a price we have to pay. The Ummah needs to look at itself a little more honestly ... like we have been during the last few centuries. Too much is at stake now for that NOT to happen. Let the true friends of Allah stand up and speak. Then we shall have a dialogue, and, hopefully, resolution. Being mealy-mouthed isn't going to achieve anything.
By the way Andreas ... I agree with most of what Ken said in reply to you. To suggest that the Orthodox are closer to Islam than the west is complete, utter and total bollocks ... as much as I respect the missionary endeavours of the Archbishop of Albania who on all other counts speaks much sense.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
But but but but -
Anyone reading this thread would think that B16 had been delivering a lecture on Islam.
He didn't. He used it as an example to illustrate his main thesis which revolved around the concept of reason and how/why that is bound to the self-understanding of Christianity.
Whilst I disgree with Andreas' analysis overall, he has a point about western christianity needing to examine its own decrepitude. It's odd, then, that a lot of the lecture was about that very thing. One could almost be excused for thinking that this thread was a kind of displacement activity - let's talk about Islam instead!
re the issue of violence in Islam and Christianity - yes, of course it has flared up in both. But the point B16 is making is - expressed in system terms - that Christianity has a negative feedback loop built in, Islam doesn't. Also - so far as I understand it - he was not following the proof-texting route in citing the suras; the issue of Quranic texts covering the same subject is almost always covered in fiqh by assigning prominence to the later text, as more complete revelation. If you want to claim that sura 2:256 states that there is to be no compunction in religion - which it does - and leave it at that, then it is you who has to answer the charge of prooftexting, not the Pope. Islamic jurisprudence just doesn't work that way - as B16 points out, it's not that clear.
If a genuine Islamic scholar wants to correct me, I will cheerfully stand corrected. Until then, that's my best shot at it.
Ian
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I would have thought some strands of hyper-Calvinist protestantism were closer in many ways to Islam - at least in their understanding of God. Just a personal observation you understand.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
Eastern Orthodoxy managed to live in peace with Islam for centuries
Er... like when? The emperor Manuel II Palaeologos, quoted by the Pope, would not recognise your statement, I would imagine. By the time he lived at the end of the 14th century the Orthodox Eastern (Byzantine) Empire had been on the receiving end of islamic aggression for about 750 years. During his reign Constantinople had to withstand a 5 year siege from the muslim Ottoman Turks and towards the end of his life the Empire had to pay tribute following another Ottoman attack.
Or do you mean that the Orthodox lived in peace with Islam after 1453? After the sack of Constaninople and the massacre of Christians in Hagia Sophia? The peace through submission which to an extent still exemplifies the Oecumenical Patriarchate's relations with the Turkish state?
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Were you reading a different speech? His "second" and "third" stages of "de-Hellenization" are blamed on Western Europe.
Sarcasm aside, the Pope a) does not explain why secularism was born in the West and not in the East. He just attributes it to a few individuals, over the course of all these many centuries, and b) the Pope talks about Europe keeping the Christian faith. This is historically false, and I am surprised that an Antiochian priest agrees with your post.
quote:
That just goes to show that even an Orthodox bishop can talk bollocks.
Anastasios has an intimate knowledge of both Orthodoxy and Islam. Yet you know that he doesn't know either of them. Father Gregory has not spent decades working with Islam. However, I am surprised that he does not agree with Anastasios. The way I see it, Orthodoxy is in fact more similar to Islam than it is to Roman Catholicism or Protestantism.
quote:
The Muslims are not Christians
The Pope cannot claim the authority of a world-leading moral figure while at the same time he speaks so lowly of Islam. The Muslims might not be Christians, yet they are of the Abrahamic faith. His homily does not only close doors on an international level; he closes doors between what Orthodoxy has been saying for centuries, and Roman Catholicism.
quote:
Gosh. Who'd a'thunk it?
I would have thought that after centuries of the Orthodox clarifying their faith, he would have stopped attributing them Roman Catholic worldviews.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
What do you think of this? And also, why do you think he said this?
I think the key is to be found by clicking on the 'exerpts' link on the BBC webpage you provided. The pope opens by saying:
quote:
It is a moving experience for me to be back again in the university and to be able once again to give a lecture at this podium.
It was an academic lecture and the context of the quote that has been cited as offensive is just, well, not offensive. I don't understand how anyone reading even the exerpts can possibly be offended. It's not even remotely Danish paperesque.
But then I will readily confess, at the risk of sticking out my neck and losing my head in the process, that I am getting bored and tired of hearing how angry the Muslim world is at almost anything that is said which is not praiseworthy with regard to their faith.
I have no idea whether Muslims really are angry. Most of them might not give a shit what the pope says. I'm just sick of the reports that "the Muslim world is angry" [again]. The media should start examining the way they report stuff: I'd just love to know who was the first to stir the pot on this occasion.
I am going to join Littlelady in sticking my head over the parapet and say that I too am fed up with hearing and reading this. I am also fed up with ‘Muslim leaders’ who refuse to acknowledge their part in being able to influence young Muslims out of violence.
I live in a highly multi-racial area with many Muslims, some Christians and recently a few Jewish families. We use each other’s shops, go to the same schools, and try to get along in an area full of drug dealers and poor families living in crappy estates. This kind of stuff does nobody any good.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Before the Fall of the Empire: There were long periods of peace INSIDE the occupied territories. There were also periods of peace between the Empire and the Arabs.
After the Fall of the Empire: Islamic Law provided for the self rule of each of the Jewish and Christian societies called a Milet.
Today: The Patriarch faces many problems because the Turks influenced by what they see in Rome think that he wants to make Phanar a Vatican-like territory inside Turkey. The Patriarch, of course, says in an explicit manner that Orthodoxy is incompatible with such views, but the Turks are not interested in what he is saying, because they are under the impression that the Vatican is something other Christians want to imitate.
Plus there is co-operation in places like Africa, etc.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
The Pope says in effect that those who do not see things his way are unreasonable.
No he doesn't
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
The Pope attributed fundamentalism to Islam as a whole.
No he didn't
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
He said that while the earlier sunnas were more peaceful, later, when Mohammed gained power, he became more aggressive. Is this an argument against historical Islam? The Pope seems to think so.
No he doesn't say that. Nor does he give any impression that he believes this is an argument against historical Islam. This all comes from dialogue between the Byzantine emperor and the educated Persian. The Pope simply observed that he had found the dialogue interesting. These are his exact words.
quote:
In this lecture I would like to discuss only one point -- itself rather marginal to the dialogue itself -- which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason," I found interesting and which can serve as the starting point for my reflections on this issue.
andreas1984, the dialogue he reviews at the start is simply a preamble to his arguments and conclusions about the relationships between faith and reason in Christianity. None of his conclusions set out any specific agenda for dialogue with Islam, or any particular parts of Islam. Here are the conclusions.
quote:
The West has long been endangered by this aversion to the questions which underlie its rationality, and can only suffer great harm thereby. The courage to engage the whole breadth of reason, and not the denial of its grandeur -- this is the program with which a theology grounded in biblical faith enters into the debates of our time.
"Not to act reasonably (with logos) is contrary to the nature of God," said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.
I recommend that you read the talk again. By all means criticise his "broad strokes" summary and in particular the way it draws on his understanding of Greek thought. But that has very little to do with Islam and is not really within the scope of the OP.
You seem to me to have jumped to some unjustified conclusions. As have those passing resolutions/demonstrating on the streets. Hair trigger reactions. Seeing offence where none was offerred or intended.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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