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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Is the Pope Danish?
Fiddleback
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Warm Regards,

Feroze H. Mithiborwala (Social Activist)
Syed Iftikhar Ahmed (Editor, Weekly Shodhan, Mumbai)
Sarfaraz Arzu (Editor, Daily Hindustan, Mumbai)
Meraj Siddiqui (Social Activist)
Hanif Lakdawala (Academic)
Muhammad Anis (Social Activist)

Hardly muslim leaders. If they're muslim leaders, let's hear Melanie Phillips' insight.
Whatever. They are still thick.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke:
the Muslim response (

So, in spite of there being millions of Muslims worldwide, we are to believe there is only one 'Muslim response''?

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Myrrh
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It struck me as a rather anaemic example of committment to peace. Mohammed decides not to slaughter a group of people who are uneasy about allowing him and his followers onto their land. (I understand he later subdued them by force of arms, in any case.).

Didn't last very long according to this page, four years.

quote:
· Treaty of Hudaibiya (626 AD) was signed with the pagans of Mecca ensuring ten years of peace. Mohammad was allowed to visit Kaba along with his followers during the pilgrimage season.

......

Phase 4: Offensive war or open declaration of attack to spread Islam
This phase is the stage of open offensive war against all the unbelievers. This phase started in 630 AD after Mohammad re-entered Mecca and captured Kaba from the pagans.

http://tellthechildrenthetruth.com/blog/2006/03/13/the-two-faces-of-the-quran/


Myrrh

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Teufelchen
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That looks like a fine unbiased source, Myrrh.

No, wait. It doesn't.

T.

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Little devil

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
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Why do I suspect that a website with the URL 'tellthechildrenthetruth.com' might not be the most balanced source of information?

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Fiddleback
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
quote:
Originally posted by Luke:
the Muslim response (

So, in spite of there being millions of Muslims worldwide, we are to believe there is only one 'Muslim response''?
There doesn't seem to be a lot of variety in the response, except in the level of violence. Have you heard one prominent Muslim say "Well, if you actually read the whole of th Pope's lecture, you will see that there is nothing to get upset about", or "Who gives a shit what the Pope thinks, anyway?". Come to think of it, I haven't heard a prominent Muslim condemn any of the recent violence or obnoxious threats made by other Muslims. But that is usual.

[ 18. September 2006, 22:02: Message edited by: Fiddleback ]

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Divine Outlaw
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Most Muslims I know are too busy working, bringing up children and otherwise getting on with tediously normal lives to comment on, or possibly even have an opinion on, current affairs.

How would you feel if large numbers of people were criticising 'Christians' in general for not being vociferous enough in their criticism of, say, Fred Phelps?

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Myrrh
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
Why do I suspect that a website with the URL 'tellthechildrenthetruth.com' might not be the most balanced source of information?

Then do your own research. And while you're doing it see if you can find teaching from Islam that stress equality of all regardless of beliefs.

The page I quoted from is the classic explanation of how to read the Koran, in chronological order not in the mixed order it appears and with the understanding that later verses overrule previous ones. Mohammed built up his doctrines on the fly, in response to the situations as he dealt with the problems which arose.

The above is a good example. And from this time Mohammed went on the offensive and this is still the current position.

quote:
Phase 4: Offensive war or open declaration of attack to spread Islam



This phase is the stage of open offensive war against all the unbelievers. This phase started in 630 AD after Mohammad re-entered Mecca and captured Kaba from the pagans. This is the phase, which is currently valid for all Muslims.



Highlights

· Permission was granted by God to declare offensive war against all non-Muslims.

· Kill the pagans and humble the Jews and the Christians through Jizya tax.

· Tabuk expedition (late 630 AD) is the first war against the Christians.

· The world is divided into two houses, viz. House of Islam (Darul Islam) and the House of war (Darul Harb).

· All Muslims must fight to convert the Darul Harb into Darul Islam.

· This is the final teaching of Qur’an and so it is valid today and for future (that is, for eternity).

· Christians are included in the list of enemies (that is, the list now grows to four).

· Verse 9:5 (also called the verse of the sword) replaces all verses showing mercy, love, tolerance and forgiveness to all non-Muslims.

Myrrh

[ 18. September 2006, 22:09: Message edited by: Myrrh ]

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Divine Outlaw
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quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Then do your own research.

Will I buggery. You're the one trying to prove a case. And until you do so by reference to websites which do not scream 'far Right screed' I am not even going to take you seriously enough to get annoyed at you.

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PaulTH*
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The old chestnut that there's plenty of violence in the Bible as well and that Christian history is full of violence holds no water in my view. Though both are true we must remember that Christians follow a founder who told his followers to turn the other cheek and who meekly gave his life as a ransom for many. If his followers have brutally treated others, they have done so against the teachings of the Lord.

Islam is different. Its founder was a violent warlord. The faith was spread about at the point of a sword with numerous forced conversions. Its whole ethos is to destroy the infidel who can't be conveted. Its true that Christians have done the same, but that isn't the message of Christianity which teaches love and forgiveness. So the two cultures are not equal in their espousal of violence.

I heard a Muslim protester outside Westminster Cathedral on the news. He said that anyone who insults the prophet or Islam can expect a death sentence. Apart from the fact that this man should have been arrested under the new religious hatred laws, he had the temerity to spout this vile shit on the streets of my City. Even though it goes against what Jesus said, if these people want a fight we are going to have to give them one.

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Paul

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Come to think of it, I haven't heard a prominent Muslim condemn any of the recent violence or obnoxious threats made by other Muslims. But that is usual.

I haven't heard a prominent Muslim do so, but I've read two or three of the people that the Guardian considers prominent Muslims do just that.
(And so has Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, of course.)

Dafyd

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Apart from the fact that this man should have been arrested under the new religious hatred laws

Incitement to murder was a criminal offence for some time before Mr Blair's latest incursion on our historic liberties.

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Teufelchen
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quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
And while you're doing it see if you can find teaching from Islam that stress equality of all regardless of beliefs.

Can you find me a Christian text of that specific nature, to compare any Islamic one I find with?

T.

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Little devil

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Fiddleback
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quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
]Can you find me a Christian text of that specific nature, to compare any Islamic one I find with?

No, but I might crash an aeroplane into your house because of your sig.
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Teufelchen
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quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Can you find me a Christian text of that specific nature, to compare any Islamic one I find with?

No, but I might crash an aeroplane into your house because of your sig.
Fiddleback, I went around the houses with coiled spring over my sig not so long ago. Leave it out. Please.

T.

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Little devil

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by RCD:

Again, only my opinion, but the really sad thing is that it seems to have reached the point where practically every Muslim majority country leader was compelled to criticize the Pope because everyone else was doing it; in order not to be seen as less than enthusiastic Muslims.

You voice a concern of mine. Extremist suicide bombers have a frightening power - so do mobs. It may require more courage than we allow for to swim against this particular tide. Particularly if you are a Muslim. BTW did you notice IngoB's post a couple of pages back? Here's the link.

It is wrong to underestimate the risks a Muslim may incur as a result of voicing an opinion like that. There are many people in the world now who are not in the least interested in peaceful co-existence. Here's another quote from the IngoB link.

quote:
Why is it that Muslims, especially the so-called moderates, never stand up with similar and as much enthusiasm against the true and perpetual profaners of Islam, the Islamic terrorists who massacre Muslims themselves in the name of the same God , the Islamic extremists who legitimize the destruction of Israel and inculcate faith in the so-called Islamic “martyrdom”, while in the meantime they feel themselves dutybound to promote a sort of Islamic “holy war” against the head of the Catholic Church who legitimately expresses his evaluations concerning Islam, with respect but with just as much clarity about the diversity that naturally exists between the two religions?
<emboldening by B62>

Why indeed? Well, you don't have to be that smart to figure out an answer or two to that originally rhetorical question.

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Luke

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quote:
How would you feel if large numbers of people were criticising 'Christians' in general for not being vociferous enough in their criticism of, say, Fred Phelps?
But that's just it, if Christians are criticised they will argue with words, instead of burning effigies, fire bombing buildings or issuing fatwas. Fred Phelps and his small gang of cronies hardly represents even a minority view of Christianity. By contrast there seem to be plenty of Muslims who are happy with the violent responses of other Muslims to direct or indirect criticisms of Islam. Where are the Muslim leaders from Tehran , Cairo and Mecca calling for restraint and dialogue with Christianity and condemning any violent response?

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by myself:
I heard a Muslim protester outside Westminster Cathedral on the news. He said that anyone who insults the prophet or Islam can expect a death sentence.

To briefly expand on this point: The man said that he was making a peaceful protest but that there may be other Muslims who would take it much further. To me this is tantamount to saying that the Pope is under a fatwa. The Vatican switchboard has received numerous death threats to the Pope since this story broke. The amount of taxpayers money which went into protecting Salman Rushdie from a fatwa would be a pittance compared to protecting the Pope.

The Pope is well protected, the more so after the shooting of his predecessor, but an organisation determined enough to carry it out could be hard to stop. It would be sensible for him to shelve his planned trip to Turkey.

[code]

[ 19. September 2006, 01:04: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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Myrrh
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quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
And while you're doing it see if you can find teaching from Islam that stress equality of all regardless of beliefs.

Can you find me a Christian text of that specific nature, to compare any Islamic one I find with?

T.

All of Christ's teaching is to become perfect as God is perfect, to love all regardless of who or what they are or if they are friends or enemies.

And that didn't change over time as did Mohammed's teaching. Christ, Father forgive them for they know not what they do, while Mohammed finished up with four enemies on his list because his ego got hurt in the process of putting himself forward as special.

Which began at Medina when he got a band of fellow brigands together and started attacking caravans. He turned into a thief and thug and only nice to those who agreed with him, yer typically bully on a winning streak.

Myrrh

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Alogon
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I respect a certain amount of circumspection and skepticism with respect to one's own heritage, rather than swallowing it whole. But ultimately one must stand for something. What might begin as sensitivity and perceptiveness can end as rudderlessness. One risks digging one's own grave and those of many others as well.

If the condescending attitude to the pope and his statement implicit in the "liberal" western media I follow is typical, then I must, however reluctantly, take another look at neo-conservatism, perhaps as articulated by Douglas Murray. It's scary when he's the only type who can "look at the world through classically liberal eyes, but wear good glasses. A neocon is a realist with morals, or a moralist with good eyesight."

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
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quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
]Can you find me a Christian text of that specific nature, to compare any Islamic one I find with?

No, but I might crash an aeroplane into your house because of your sig.
Take that to Hell Fiddleback. Getting rather vilely personal aren't we?

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

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The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
Now make the leap to a poorly educated, angry Muslim teenager and what to do get? Sadly it seems that you get septigenarian Nuns being murdered in the street.

This is pure crap! The pope is in no way whatever responsible for some evil Muslim fuckwit shooting that Italian nun in Somalia in the back. If you must seek guilt other than in precisely that evil Muslim fuckwit, then seek it in the Western media (BBC front and center) which has nothing better to do than to reduce the pope's fine speech into offensive soundbites and push those soundbites across the globe. Or seek it in the religious and political "leaders" of the Muslim world who spoonfeed hate-filled drivel to their uneducated poor. Or seek it in those uneducated poor, who let themselves be manipulated with ridiculous ease into violent riots. But to restrict one's thoughts and speech in order to avoid the reaction of the "axis of evil stupidity" (Western main stream media - radical Muslim "leaders" - gullible Muslim rioters) simply means that they have won. The pope by virtue of his office has to exercise a certain prudence, but if he can't say anymore what he said in an university setting, then the end of our Western civilization truly is near. Maybe it is time to stand up and fight the powers and principalities...

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The Pope is well protected, the more so after the shooting of his predecessor, but an organisation determined enough to carry it out could be hard to stop. It would be sensible for him to shelve his planned trip to Turkey.

I don't know about that one. Turkey is the exemplary case of a "modern Muslim democracy", it's very important for Europe and the European RCC to get Turkey right. And Turkey is in a unique situation since they do wish so much to join the EU, i.e., they can be pressured. Finally, Turkey is a former heartland of Christianity and while it would be mostly on behalf of Orthodox rather than RC communities, there's still considerable duty of care for the Christian heritage and remaining Christian population. I would not be surprised if Benedict XVI risked the somewhat increased chance of martyrdom and visited anyway...

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IngoB

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Adding to my post, it appears the pope is on for Turkey:
quote:
Asia News:
And this morning, the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of Turkey, as planned, met in Istanbul to discuss details of the trip’s itinerary. They were joined by Mgr Piero Marini, head of the Office of Papal Liturgical Celebrations. They share the view that at this point, there is no reason to call off the visit and in fact, after reading together the statement of clarification by the Secretary of State, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the bishops turned their attention to details of the trip set to take place as scheduled from 28 November to 1 December.

He has my prayers for a safe trip. [Votive]

Asia News also carries a reasonable comment by the former Iranian President Khatami:
quote:
Asia News:
Former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami said the full text of the Pope speech in Regensburg should be read before making any comments on its contents.

“I hope that the reports in this regard are misinterpreted as such remarks [as reported in the press] are usually made by uninformed and fanatic people but my impression of the pope was rather an educated and patient man,” Khatami said after his return to Tehran from a two-week visit to the United States.

Here's an excellent interview with Cardinal Walter Kasper, the Catholic Church's ecumenical representative:
quote:
Der Spiegel:
SPIEGEL: Do you think a dialogue on equal footing is possible?

Kasper: One cannot be naïve when engaging in this dialogue. Islam undoubtedly deserves respect. It has some things in common with Christianity, such as Abraham as a common progenitor, and the belief in only one God. But Islam developed in opposition to orthodox Christianity from the very start, and it considers itself superior to Christianity. So far, it has only been tolerant in places where it is in the minority. Where it is the majority religion, Islam does not recognize religious freedom, at least not as we understand it. Islam is a different culture. This doesn't mean that it's an inferior culture, but it is a culture that has yet to connect with the positive sides of our modern Western culture: religious freedom, human rights and equal rights for women. These shortcomings are one reason so many Muslims feel such frustration that often turns into hatred and violence against the West, which is despised as being godless and decadent. Suicide attacks are the actions of losers who have nothing left to lose. In this case, Islam serves as a mask, a cover for desperation and nihilism, but not for religion.

Is it just me, or has Cardinal Kasper been talking more and more sense as of late? As a reminder here's the pope 2005 speech to the Muslims in Cologne:
quote:
Vatican:
Past experience teaches us that, unfortunately, relations between Christians and Muslims have not always been marked by mutual respect and understanding. How many pages of history record battles and wars that have been waged, with both sides invoking the Name of God, as if fighting and killing, the enemy could be pleasing to him. The recollection of these sad events should fill us with shame, for we know only too well what atrocities have been committed in the name of religion.

The lessons of the past must help us to avoid repeating the same mistakes. We must seek paths of reconciliation and learn to live with respect for each other's identity. The defence of religious freedom, in this sense, is a permanent imperative, and respect for minorities is a clear sign of true civilization.

And finally, somebody else has expressed some of my own vague thoughts about "why this quote" more clearly:
quote:
Christopher Orlet:
At the time of his reign (1391-1425) the Muslim Turks had their sights set on the empire's capital of Constantinople. In 1399, Manuel traveled to England, France, the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, and Aragon seeking assistance from the various monarchs and courts. His visit was a complete bust. The split between the Greek Orthodox and Roman churches proved too wide. Unless the Greeks agreed to join the Roman Church there would be no troops, no assistance, and the Greeks were not about to surrender their autonomy to Rome, not even to save the empire, their religion and their lives.

The result: Within a few years the Turks would take Constantinople, rename it Istanbul, and the Roman-Byzantine Empire would disappear forever from the earth. (In an ironic aside, Manuel's son Constantine, the last Byzantine-Roman emperor, was killed in battle defending the capital. Legend has it that he discarded his purple cloak and charged into the fray taking so many cuts and blows that his corpse was unrecognizable. Thus, the last Roman emperor was laid to rest in a mass grave.)

I suspect that the Pope was hoping to make the point that unless the West comes together, heals its divisions, and faces the threat of radical Islam together, it may face a similar fate as the Roman-Byzantine Empire. Naturally Benedict couldn't come right and make such a bald statement -- just as Benedict's predecessor Pope Pius XII had to be similarly circumspect during Nazi rule -- so he couched his remark in an obscure reference by a forgotten historical figure. The pope knew that he would have to apologize later for his statement, still he believed it important enough to risk it.

That is still for me the million dollar question - was the quote on purpose, or an absent minded gaffe of an elderly academic who is not used to world attention? It's much more interesting if it was on purpose.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

<snip>
That is still for me the million dollar question - was the quote on purpose, or an absent minded gaffe of an elderly academic who is not used to world attention? It's much more interesting if it was on purpose.

And also more morally ambiguous, IngoB. If I give you an analogy from scripture, when Jesus overturned the tables in the temple, it was undoubtedly a righteous act but it was one which he knew would lead to violence and retribution. Which fell on him.

In this world, some Muslims, when provoked do indeed visit violence on any related target. These are acts of great evil. They are foreseeable. So an act which provokes may put at risk the innocent. So the dilemma is, how does one engage the Muslim community in recognising the wrongness of these irrational and vicious explosions? Is the fear of provocation and its consequences such that in order to be prudent one must always be bland in public? In principle, my gorge rises at this sort of silencing.

What has happened, I believe, is that this basically nonsensical reaction to a quotation from a medieval text has demonstrated with great power and force a deep malaise within present day Islam. What I also believe is that if the Pope was to draft the speech to Regensberg today, he would probably include the phrase. "Of course these views do not represent my own personal opinion and my reason for quoting from this text is ......". Without any loss of force of argument. There would have been nothing like this reaction, I believe, (though I'm pretty sure there would have been some.)

I think hatless is right in believing we have a creative moment here. I've been praying for some positive responses from within Islam. The quote from Mohammad Khatami is very helpful. And, as I said earlier, those who express more moderate opinions within Islam also run significant risks these days.

If i can characterise it this way, I still believe that robust and constructive dialogue is possible and better than a despairing out-and-out confrontation. This brouhaha may have increase the possibility of both, but we should go for dialogue. Not as an act of appeasement but because, hopefully, there is now some mutual recognition about how dangerously out-of-control things have got.

One of my favourite commentators from the radical wing of evangelicalism is Jim Wallis. He characterises politicians as folks whose behaviour is far too often characterised by them licking their fingers, sticking them in the air, and test which way the wind is blowing. So they can follow it.

He contrasts such behaviour with people who make a difference (Tutu, Mandela, Ghandi, King, Theresa of Calcutta, JPII), who he describes as "wind-changers". I very much like a great deal of what I have seen and read from this Pope since he took on this office. I believe, and am hoping, that BXVI is a "wind-changer". I think God is very much in this moment. Turkey looks like being an excellent test of the possibility of new beginnings.

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David Gould
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From today's Telegraph

'It emerged yesterday that Scotland Yard has launched an inquiry into complaints about offensive protests by Muslim extremists outside Westminster Cathedral on Sunday. A well-known extremist, who was accompanied by scores of demonstrators from a group called Muslims of the UK, was reported to have called for the Pope to be "executed".'

When is the Government going to do something about these people.

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Alogon
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quote:
The result: Within a few years the Turks would take Constantinople, rename it Istanbul, and the Roman-Byzantine Empire would disappear forever from the earth.
Possible quibble: It appears from Wikipedia that "Constantinople" was the official name of the city until 1930. One critic on Amazon impugned the scholarship of Anne Rice in her having 18th-century Venetians call it Istanbul in her novel Cry to Heaven. However, the etymology of the word is contentious: is it a translation of "Constantinople" or does it have a different origin?

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Cod
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Casting my mind back to the Danish Cartoons affair, I remember Ken blaming the disturbances on an internal power struggle within Muslim elements. "Willy waving" between leaders, as I recall.

I would be interested to know if he thinks the same thing is happening again.

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Fiddleback
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
The result: Within a few years the Turks would take Constantinople, rename it Istanbul, and the Roman-Byzantine Empire would disappear forever from the earth.
Possible quibble: It appears from Wikipedia that "Constantinople" was the official name of the city until 1930. One critic on Amazon impugned the scholarship of Anne Rice in her having 18th-century Venetians call it Istanbul in her novel Cry to Heaven. However, the etymology of the word is contentious: is it a translation of "Constantinople" or does it have a different origin?
'Eis ten Polin' (Down Town) was the colloquial Byzantine name for their city. The Ottomans, who in just about every way stepped into the Byzantines' shoes, just carried on calling it that. They did not rename the city.
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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by David Gould:
From today's Telegraph

'It emerged yesterday that Scotland Yard has launched an inquiry into complaints about offensive protests by Muslim extremists outside Westminster Cathedral on Sunday. A well-known extremist, who was accompanied by scores of demonstrators from a group called Muslims of the UK, was reported to have called for the Pope to be "executed".'

When is the Government going to do something about these people.

Presumably after the results of the inquiry, and according to the law of the land. What do you suggest as alternative?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
To repeat what I posted - from Penguin Classic version of the Qur'an: p. 343 where Muslims are bidden to ‘fight against those who fight you’ – i.e. self-defence. Then on p. 346 self-defence is the only reason given for fighting – this time the context is unbelievers fighting Muslims with the intention of trying to make them give up Islam.

The Repentance sura is a continuation of the same context.

The trouble with arguing with you, Leo, on this subject is that you seem to be insisting that there is only one Islamic teaching on violence - or at least only one that can claim to be correct. Certainly it is true that many Muslim scholars claim that jihad is essentially defensive. Many have argued both in the past and present, that Jihad is both defensive and offensive. In fact some very influential Islamist thinkers - I have in mind Mawdudi and Qutb - have an exceedingly belligerent view.

I hope the self-defensive and spiritual view of jihad eventually wins the day. But this is by no means a foregone conclusion because it requires either, a retreat from literalism and a rejection of violent episodes in Islam's past (much as Christians have widely done); or alternatively an extraordinarily selective reading of the Koran and a fantastically revisionist view of history.

Scholars are now divided because the break up of the Ottoman Empire plus corrupt governments porppoed up by the USA has meant there is no one voice of leadership. Those governments magnify the voices of the scholars who are often belligerent.

However, it is possible to appeal to what protestant Christians call 'the plain meaning of the text.'

It is also possible to talk of 'mainstream Islam' as it is possible to talk of 'Orthodox Christianity'.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Scholars are now divided because the break up of the Ottoman Empire plus corrupt governments porppoed up by the USA has meant there is no one voice of leadership.

Nonsense. Muslim scholars have been divided since the day the Prophet died and his father-in-law and son-in-law squabbled over the corpse.

OK, the Caliphate if not actually the corpse, and it was apparently 9 months later. But that was the argument that led to the murders of Ali and Hussayn and Hassan and the rise of the Shia and started arguments that have led to the murders of hundreds of people in the last few weeks.

But there are just as many flavours and sects of Islam as there are of Christianity, and they are just as diverse, and they disagree all the time, though some of them are politer about it than others.

Its just absurd to blame it on the Ottomans or the Americans.

[ 19. September 2006, 17:15: Message edited by: ken ]

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L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Myrrh
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:

However, it is possible to appeal to what protestant Christians call 'the plain meaning of the text.'

It is also possible to talk of 'mainstream Islam' as it is possible to talk of 'Orthodox Christianity'.

The plain meaning of the text is as it has been in fourteen centuries of teaching and practice since Mohammed conceived it over time, as the Cairo statement confirms.

quote:
Jihad and Human Rights Today
An active ideology incompatible with universal standards of freedom and equality.By Bat Ye’or Jihad ideology separates humanity into two hostile blocs: the community of Muslims (Dar ul-Islam), and the infidel non-Muslims (Dar ul-Harb). Allah commands the Muslims to conquer the entire world in order to rule it according to Koranic law. Hence Muslims must wage a perpetual war against those infidels who refuse to submit. This is the motivation for jihad. It is based on the inequality between the community of Allah and the infidels, as was re-emphasized in the Cairo Declaration. The first is a superior group, which must rule the world; the second must submit. The current relevance of this ideology is apparent, and disturbing.

[For example, Al-Muhajiroun, an Islamist newspaper in London, published an article on January 27, 2001, which declared: ...]


Such an attitude assumes that the infidels have no rights and are totally dehumanized. It breeds hatred and contempt and has led to historical negationism, and the destruction of non-Muslim cultures. Moreover, such views are not confined to the most radical Islamists. They were confirmed in the Proceedings of the Fourth Conference of the Academy of Islamic Research, held in 1968 (General Organization for Government Printing Offices, Cairo, 1968), and regularly since then by eminent Islamic scholars. These authoritative pronouncements have recapitulated the theory of jihad in a manner completely consistent with the Al-Muhajiroun statements. Link Here

Myrrh

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Myrrh
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# 11483

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Understanding how to read the Koran in mainstream Islam:


quote:
A Critical Analysis of ‘Real Islam’. Its People, Culture, Philosophy, and Practices Yesterday and Today. by: Vernon Richards
The revered work "al-Nasikh wal-Mansukh" (The Abrogator and the Abrogated) deals in great detail with many subject matters addressed in the Qur’an wherein there appears to be some conflict or contradiction. The book goes through every sura (chapter), pointing out in full detail every verse which has been canceled, and the verse(s) which replace it. The author notes that out of 114 suras, there are only 43 which were not affected by this concept. As an example of the scope of abrogation in the Qur’an: there are 125 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by sura 9:5: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." and sura 5:33: "For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land".

[See: Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, An-Nasikh wal- Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986 p.27]

Muslim activists universally fail to reveal to Westerners this major doctrine, hiding the fact that earlier conciliatory passages have been rendered null and void for over 1300 years. When Westerners discover it on their own they complain we misinterpret such writings or misapply their impact. Muslim promoters prefer to polish Islam's image by quoting the earlier abrogated Meccan passages that call for patience and forbearance. Spokespersons hide or omit Medinan passages that clearly call for killing and maiming. When hearing people explain Islam claiming the earlier more peaceful verses are dominant in Islamic philosophy, one must judge between two options; Either the presenter is completely ignorant of genuine Islamic doctrine, or he is practicing officially sanctioned Islamic deceit. The Doctrine of Abrogation



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Alogon
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quote:
But there have been further protests in Iran and Indonesia while influential Qatari Muslim scholar, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, called for a day of anger against the Pope on Friday.


First a few Danish cartoonists, next Benedict XVI. Once again they let someone in the West determine how they're going to spend a day of their lives. The Pope is indeed a powerful man, huh.

This could be an interesting game. Infantile, perhaps, but useful. Maybe we should keep playing until we've worn them out.

How long before they get tired of being so suggestible and hopping to western tunes?

Does the Koran contain a story anything like the boy who cried wolf?

What if they gave a "day of anger" and nobody came?

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The Lady of the Lake
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Yes Alogon, you're right. It's infantile behaviour. I was thinking about it a little yesterday actually, because some relatives of mine have a friend who is researching how Anti-Social Personality Disorder develops in a small (usually male) child, usually through bad upbringing and giving into the whimsies of a naturally strong-willed personality. Threatening a 'day of anger' and throwing a contriived tantrum displays the emotional maturity of a six-year old. [Projectile]

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If I had a coat, I would get it.

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
What if they gave a "day of anger" and nobody came?

Then it would be like the mass student protest against Israel in the city a couple of months ago. It got called off when, 25 minutes after they were supposed to march to Parliament House, there were still only 20 people there.

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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RCD
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# 11440

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
[qb] [QUOTE]What if they gave a "day of anger" and nobody came?

Give them a little credit- they aren't that dumb. They have it on Friday after the prayers and weekly sermon (guess the topic).
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leo
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After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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mdijon
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It's my considered view that once you start refering to a board full of diverse people as "you people" and suggesting posting patterns can be so trivially psychoanalysed, you've left the path of rational debate.

Are you not part of these debates? Some with similar views to you, some not... or is it Leo contra boardi?

Perhaps people here are also afraid of God, given how much they post about her. (Or him, didn't mean to betray my oedipal complex there.)

[ 20. September 2006, 21:19: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?

Don't be silly. Did you count the posts? No you didn't. Neither of those are likely to be in the top five subjects. Maybe top ten.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?

What are we afraid of? Homosexuality doesn't concern me, interest me or frighten me. Yet I'm shit scared of Islam. What am I scared of then? Lets start at home. Myself and other people very dear to me commute into London on public transport on a regular basis. I'm frightened that we are going to get blown up by a suicide bomber. Many British cities have large Muslim populations which are poorly integrated into the Britisn society around them. I fear that these coimmunities will breed terrorism. I fear that there will be inter-racial strife on the streets as there was in Burnley and Bradford a few years ago.

In the larger world: I fear that Iran will develop a nuclear device, drop it on Israel and precipitate WW3. I fear that Osama's idealogical followers will cause another 9/11 somewhere. I fear that Islam's desire to anihilate Israel will spill over into a major conflict.

I fear, so in the Greek sense of the word I am Islamaphobic. The potential for the nihilistic forces of chaos to engulf us grows daily in this troubled world. But perhaps the time of the Parousia draws nigh and all this is a necessary precurser to that apocalyptic event.

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sanityman
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?

Gay Moslems, of course. Why do you ask?

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duchess

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quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?

Gay Moslems, of course. Why do you ask?
[Killing me]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?

Don't be silly. Did you count the posts? No you didn't. Neither of those are likely to be in the top five subjects. Maybe top ten.
Top 2 - there are about 70 pages about homosexuality in the Dead horses and about 6 separate strands related to Islam throughout the rest of the site
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mdijon
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Crappy hymns and choruses comes out quite high by that reasoning.

Kendrophobia, clearly.

[Paranoid]

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Callan
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So does Intelligent Design. Actually the length of that thread is largely the work of half a dozen souls and has died a death completely since Faithful Sheepdog retired hurt from his gallant, yet ultimately doomed, Thermopylae-esque defence of the Disco Institute.

Biblical Inerrancy flattered to decieve a few years ago, but turned out to be the equivalent of a grimly fought out nil-nil draw on a wet February night with Leprechaun as the scrapping right back and Psyduck as the old fashioned centre forward, never quite able to manage the decisive knock out blow, yet keeping the crowds on the edge of their seats.

Hyrdrophobia and Biblophobia, presumably.

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GoodCatholicLad
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After homosexuality, Islam gets the most posts on this bulletin board - what are you people afraid of?

Don't be silly. Did you count the posts? No you didn't. Neither of those are likely to be in the top five subjects. Maybe top ten.
Top 2 - there are about 70 pages about homosexuality in the Dead horses and about 6 separate strands related to Islam throughout the rest of the site
70 pages on homosexuality?? And 6 sperate stands on Islam, perhaps many should get their priorities straight. Homosexuals are the LEAST of your problems, Whabbists who are bent on world dommination seems just a tennsy winnsy more urgent in the big picture.
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Callan
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Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:

quote:
Whabbists who are bent on world dommination seems just a tennsy winnsy more urgent in the big picture.
Oh fuck me! It turns out that the real brains behind neo-conservatism is Elmer Fudd. It's a Whabbist! It's a Whabbist! I'm going to get that Whabbist if it's the last thing I do!

Actually, if you think about it for a mo you might notice that the thought that Al Qaeda are A Bad Thing is fairly uncontentious and, therefore, doesn't get discussed much on a discussion board.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
So does Intelligent Design. Actually the length of that thread is largely the work of half a dozen souls and has died a death completely since Faithful Sheepdog retired hurt from his gallant, yet ultimately doomed, Thermopylae-esque defence of the Disco Institute.

Biblical Inerrancy flattered to decieve a few years ago, but turned out to be the equivalent of a grimly fought out nil-nil draw on a wet February night with Leprechaun as the scrapping right back and Psyduck as the old fashioned centre forward, never quite able to manage the decisive knock out blow, yet keeping the crowds on the edge of their seats.

Hyrdrophobia and Biblophobia, presumably.

[Overused] and [Killing me] as well.

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Alogon
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# 5513

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"Spengler" has an interesting article in Asia Times.

He points out another respect in which the Moslem response to the Pope's words vindicates the Pope's words: the role given to reason in Islam, according to them, is a non-role.

Islamic reason: for Descartes's "I think, therefore I exist" substitute, "I think, therefore
Allah exists."

Christianity survives textual criticism of the Bible, partly because neither Judaism or Christianity claims that the whole tome had a single human author or was written within a brief period. Islam, by contrast, claims, that Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammed. The exercise of reasonable critical techniques upon the text blows this claim to bits. The response of Islam, Spengler suggests, has been to threaten the life of anyone applying these techniques and publishing the results. Those who do so are often anonymous or pseudonymous.

Around Islam, must even the Pope whisper?

As for his later explanation that what he quoted did not reflect his own opinion, Spengler recalls a Russian joke. In 1938, a Muscovite called the KGB to report that his parrot had escaped. The agent asked "why are you calling us about this?"
The reply, "I want to state for the record that I do not share the parrot's political opinions."

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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