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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is the Pope Danish?
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PataLeBon
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# 5452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
If I quoted Luther in a Roman Catholic forum saying that Romans are donkeys, would the Roman Catholics be unreasonable to get offended?
If you can find me the quote, then I would say yes. If you make it up, then I would say no.
Can you show me that the Pope made his quote up?
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
As for God being bound by His word, I will remind you that "when God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed His mind about the calamity that He had said He would bring upon them; and He did not do it." (Jonah 3.10, NRSV)
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
The quote is this:
"If your papist makes much useless fuss about the word sola, allein, tell him at once: Doctor Martin Luther will have it so and says: Papist and donkey are one thing; sic volo, sic jubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. For we do not want to be pupils and followers of the Papists, but their masters and judges."
If I made a thread on faith and reason on a Roman Catholic forum and used that quote, I think that the Roman Catholics in that forum would rightly get offended, unless I said explicitly that I condemn the content of the quotation. If, on the other hand, I used my thread to show that Roman Catholics lack reason for their opposing the addition of the "sola" in Paul's "justification through faith", then that would be an attack on Catholicism.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I would really like to quote the following article entire, please head over to the link. The piece is short enough and worth your time:
quote:
Translation from the Italian via Me Monk, Me Meander:
(Magdi Allam is a leading Muslim commentator in Italy.)
It is desolating and preoccupying to see Muslims who have given life to a unified international front to attack the Pope and demand public apologies. From Bin Laden to the Muslim Brotherhood, from Pakistan to Turkey, from Al Jazeera to Al Arabiya, there has risen anew the widespread and universal alliance that first emerged on the occasion of the events surrounding the cartoons about Mohammed. It testifies, in an unequivocal manner, that the root of the evil is a blind ideology of imperious hatred among Muslims, one that violates the faith and darkens the mind. <...>
I recall that one of the most notable contemporary Islamologists, the Egyptian Mohammad Said El Eshmawi, said to me in the mid-nineties that he simply did not sympathize with the military conquest carried out by the Arab tribes in the Christian lands of the Mediterranean, and that he would have preferred to have had Islam spread peacefully as came about in Southeast Asia. And now the Pope is being punished and threatened for having said what every honest and rational Muslim should accept: the historical reality. <...>
The pretexts that can set off their fury change, from the Israeli occupation to the American war, from the Mohammed cartoons to the declarations of the Pope. But the problem is entirely internal to an Islam transformed by the extremists from a faith in God into an ideology bent on imposing a theocratic and totalitarian power upon all those who are not in their image and likeness. And it frightens me to note that even the so-called moderate Muslims have renounced the prudence of reason, and have aligned themselves with the “holy war” of which they will be the principal victims.
One can but hope that moderate Muslims will start to stand up against the relentless radicalization of Islam in the world. One can but hope that the Western press will stop magnifying the voice of the violent and crazed Muslim fringe. One can but hope that a certain poster stops playing "the Muslim enemy of my Roman enemy is my dearest friend" real soon. Otherwise all those Byzantine saints rotating ever faster in their graves may cause a major earthquake in the Middle East...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
I find his homily stupid and I doubt it can have any positive effect.
I have to take issue with this. I hold no brief for Roman Catholicism, but do have respect for the office holder of Pope.
His lecture - a homily takes place in a church, no? - was an argument about whether or not it is reasonable to use violence. His conclusion is that since it is out of character for God, it is not Christian for us to do so. Furthermore, in using the Byzantine emperor's quote as the starting point for his thesis, he was showing that not all people of faith agree about the character of God.
IngoB has nailed this already: a reasonable person will not disagree. An unreasonable one will respond with violence.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Barnabas62 said: quote:
The notion that, being an academic address, it will of necessity fly over the heads of "mere mortals" is a sort of insulting reverse snobbery. It wasn't that hard to make sense of it.
Barnabas, you'll no doubt be aware that I've argued exactly this point despite my admiration for what Benedict says and the way in which it was said. Are you really suggesting that it's not possible for a Christian to appreciate Benedict's words for the truth that they convey while at the same time wishing that he'd said it a bit less academically? Yes, the speech is clear; and yes, I think it contains truth. But accessible it isn't.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
His lecture - a homily takes place in a church, no? - was an argument about whether or not it is reasonable to use violence. His conclusion is that since it is out of character for God, it is not Christian for us to do so. Furthermore, in using the Byzantine emperor's quote as the starting point for his thesis, he was showing that not all people of faith agree about the character of God.
I used the word homily in a broad sense. Homilo means speak. When Benedict spoke, he drew the line between Christianity, which (as he claims) is based on reason, and Islam, which is based on unreasonableness. If this is not a clash of civilizations, then I don't know what is.
There are three civilizations that clash here. Islam, Orthodoxy and Western Christianity. Western Christianity gives a pre-eminence on reason. What's at stake here, and this is far more important for the future of Europe than politics, is the transcendence of God. In other threads we have seen people attack it. We now know what the source of these attacks is.
[ 16. September 2006, 13:33: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
I will quote from Archbishop Anastasios.
quote:
It is obvious that some Muslims, in this highly complex conflict, are trying to exploit religious convictions by using slogans from the Koran. They are resorting to calls for a holy war to defend Islam and for the glory of Allah. Religious fanaticism is like a forest fire in a strong wind. Yet there is not one, unified Islam, just as there is no united Christian Church...
We cannot allow religion to become caught up in the cogs of terrorism. Terrorism was not invented to support the claims of the believers of one religion or another. The essence of religion has to be protected in every way possible. Religious experience opens the mind and the heart to the eternal, revealing a person’s spiritual potential and leading him to communion with the sacred, with God, in a relationship of respect and love for one’s fellow human beings....
Generally, our attention should not be wholly taken up with the recent terrorist strikes and counterattacks. It is time that our consciences woke from sleep and looked at the problem of terrorism as it is developing around the world. Most people have completely forgotten, if they ever even noticed, that apart from these latest strikes, there are 40 other conflicts going on in the world. Western societies with political, scientific and military power have a duty to engage in self-criticism and to realize their responsibilities in the context of these new world conditions. The peace and security everyone is talking about can only be secured through social justice and development for the Earth’s poorer societies. It would be terrible — spiritually, politically, strategically — out of negligence or arrogance, to allow a new, composite “proletariat” to emerge, which will try to impose its will violently, exploiting the spiritual, individual energy of religion...
And again:
quote:
we are the borderland of Orthodoxy and Islam. We have shown more than tolerance. We have decided to live with respect for one another. And this is resistance in an era in which there is an over bun-dance of hatred
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
The quote is this:
"If your papist blah blah blah..."
If I made a thread on faith and reason on a Roman Catholic forum and used that quote, I think that the Roman Catholics in that forum would rightly get offended, unless I said explicitly that I condemn the content of the quotation.
Yes, but Pope Benedict didn't give his lecture in a Muslim forum. He was addressing a Roman Catholic audience.
Anyway, the Pope says something that vaguely suggests that Islam promotes violence, and what is Ali's reaction? To get frightfully upset, stage violent demonstrations, burn effigies of His Holiness and bomb some churches. It doesn't do much to prove Benedict wrong, does it?
[ 16. September 2006, 13:39: Message edited by: Fiddleback ]
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
M-T Tomb, I see your point about accessibility but it is surely quite difficult to make all lectures at an academic level accessible?
I agree with IngoB et al that the quotation was used after a great deal of consideration and for a reason, as it is not really germane to the argument.
The most interesting aspect of this what Benedict's follow up will be. The expected response has already been made, that there was no intention to offend.
I have a feeling that this is in line with his approach to "relativism" and is a hint at "thus far and no further". Inter-faith relations have to be built on equal respect yet no compromise in matters of faith.
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Yes, but Pope Benedict didn't give his lecture in a Muslim forum. He was addressing a Roman Catholic audience.
I don't have Benedict's power, this is why I spoke about an online forum. Benedict addressed the entire planet.
quote:
Anyway, the Pope says something that vaguely suggests that Islam promotes violence, and what is Ali's reaction? To get frightfully upset, stage violent demonstrations, burn effigies of His Holiness and bomb some churches. It doesn't do much to prove Benedict wrong, does it?
You know what? This is what I hear from atheists who attack Christianity. Every time one mentions the good that can be found in Christianity, an atheist opposing Christianity brings a lot of examples of Christians being violent with each other or with non-Christians. In his mind, there is nothing good in Christianity itself that cannot be found elsewhere; on the contrary, he says that Christianity did more damage in the world.
This is exactly the thinking of Benedict. He is alienated from Islam and therefore he speaks about it the same way one alienated from Christianity speaks about our holy religion. This is why I pointed out the difference between his stance towards the Lutheras; he is not alienated from them because he is a German, but he is alienated from Islam because he lives in the West.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Meanwhile, the aforementioned expert Samir Khalil Samir, SJ, has written a very good commentary which leads with the following interesting observation:
quote:
AsiaNews.it:
Negative reactions in the Arab and Muslim world to the remarks made by Benedict XVI at Regensburg University are exaggerated and misplaced. Protest marches are being organised everywhere in ways that bring to mind what happened in the wake of the publication of the blasphemous Muhammad cartoons. But one thing is clear. No one, and I mean NO ONE, has fully read what the Pope said.
An English translation of the speech, which was in German, was released yesterday, a French version is not yet ready, and no translation has been made in any Eastern language. Therefore, all the attacks so far are based on a few quotes and excerpts liberally taken by Western news agencies on what the Pope said about Islam, which was only ten per cent of his speech. But this ten per cent must be understood against the whole thing.
Interesting, huh? Just in: Whispers in the Loggia has the official statement of Cardinal Bertone, Secretary of State:
quote:
As for the opinion of the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus which he quoted during his Regensburg talk, the Holy Father did not mean, nor does he mean, to make that opinion his own in any way. He simply used it as a means to undertake - in an academic context, and as is evident from a complete and attentive reading of the text - certain reflections on the theme of the relationship between religion and violence in general, and to conclude with a clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence, from whatever side it may come. On this point, it is worth recalling what Benedict XVI himself recently affirmed in his commemorative Message for the 20th anniversary of the Inter-religious Meeting of Prayer for Peace, initiated by his predecessor John Paul II at Assisi in October 1986: " ... demonstrations of violence cannot be attributed to religion as such but to the cultural limitations with which it is lived and develops in time. ... In fact, attestations of the close bond that exists between the relationship with God and the ethics of love are recorded in all great religious traditions". <emphasis from the original>
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
I live in Greece.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
The Holy Father has apolgised, according to my reading here. I find this whole thing quite distressing, both the reaction from the Muslims in the world, and from other Christians on this board.
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Even more so than I was before
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
You know what? This is what I hear from atheists who attack Christianity. Every time one mentions the good that can be found in Christianity, an atheist opposing Christianity brings a lot of examples of Christians being violent with each other or with non-Christians.
Ho hum. Can you then find me any news pictures of offended Christians waving placards saying 'Death to the enemies of Christianity' and 'Kill those who insult the Lord Jesus'?
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteCanada:
The Holy Father has apolgised, according to my reading
Through Vatican officials? Doesn't he consider the issue important enough for a personal apology? Or should the Muslims be thankful that he sent an official, instead of a mere deacon?
"We do not accept the apology through Vatican channels... and ask him to offer a personal apology - not through his officials - to Muslims for this false reading." (Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah, senior Lebanese Shia cleric)
And he apologized for what? For being misunderstood by unreasonable people? Because this is what happened according to many people in this thread.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Ho hum. Can you then find me any news pictures of offended Christians waving placards saying 'Death to the enemies of Christianity' and 'Kill those who insult the Lord Jesus'?
I spoke about actual violence. You speak about threats. I have seen pictures of Christians burning books, burning mosques, "waving placards saying" nasty things for their Christian opponents etc etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:
At the last count Greece was in the West....very close to Italy, actually.
Check out Anastasios' saying again: "we are the borderland of Orthodoxy and Islam. We have shown more than tolerance. We have decided to live with respect for one another. And this is resistance in an era in which there is an over bun-dance of hatred."
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cusanus:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Isn't the real problem that it isn't reported accurately even when there are reports? How many know that Sudan is Muslims against the Christian and another Osama led war?
Depends which Sudan conflict. In the one most prominently in the news atm, Darfur, both sides of the conflict are Muslim.
The Sudan conflict that has been going on since 1956 - to enforce Islam on all who aren't.
http://www.persecution.org/newsite/countryinfodetail.php?countrycode=11
Islam is a nation and a religion and it's the national interest which is foremost in its jihad, the holy war incumbent on Muslims to demand the submission of all to Islam. The choices since Mohammed refined them are, resist and die, convert and become a citizen, pay tax to keep identity, but without any rights to uphold that identity, and no rights of citizenship, but forced conversion is not prohibited.
Myrrh
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and thanks for all the fish
Posts: 4467 | Registered: Jun 2006
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya Andreas,
The Pope has issued an official Apology something like the following:
He is sorry that Muslims were offended by the contents of his speech, and he never meant to be abusive or to offend Muslim Sensibilities.
The Bristish Muslim council just spoke on BBC1 News 24 and asked now for the Pope to rebuke the words of a Byzantine Emperor.
The above is ridiculous, shall we raise him from the Dead so that the Byzantine Emperor can be rebuked for having a 14th Century view of the Turks and Islam, just who was right here,
Muslims asked for an Apology which the Pope has given, now they want more they want him to repudiate the Words of the Byzantine Emperor, while they themselves burn effigies of the Pope and pile on pressure for Muslims to go on protests over a speech that was not an EVEN AN ATTEMPT EVEN TO INSULT MUSLIMS.
Here I'll show you the love from the Quran,
The Noble Qur'an: Al-Ma'idah 5:51. O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as 'Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers etc.), they are but friends to each other.
That was love from Islam from Muhammad for the Christians and Jews... its non-existent in the Quran... sillyness from a Man 'Muhammad' PBUH who claimed to be a Prophet sent from GOD...
Does GOD hate the Jews, Christians?
Should we take this religion seriously or just bin the Quran safely.
Muhammad sure was smoking his own shit when that was added to the Quran. He wanted his followers to be separate from Jews and Christians, and they cant take even one sensible speech from a Pope without contorting the words of the Speech into some kind of slur against Islam.
Try rebuking me over the words Ive just printed from the Quran Andrea
I know Islam, Ive read the Quran and Ive seen that Muslims are now approaching a point where they will not tolerate any criticism of their religion or their faith.
Come on and suggest that the Christians burn down mosques and that stuff, just show the pictures and stuff and get the news reports.
Only recently a Western Torist was killed by your friendly Muslims with a shout of 'ALLAHU AKBAR', recently in Turkey a Catholic Priest was murdered for no reason with the same 'ALLAHU AKBAR'
The Tolerant side of Islam doesnt exist. I wish Islam didnt exist.
Thanks
Centurion
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
The Balcans are not Muslim even though they were under Turkish occupation for centuries. This example shows that it is not inherent in Islam the fundamentalists' opinion "convert or die".
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Some of the balkans are Muslim. There are plenty of muslims in Bosnia and Albania.
But truly, doesn't even one of these people see the irony in saying, "Take back what you said about us being violent, or we'll commit acts of violence"?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Dear centurion,
your post is an example of hatred. I cannot but condemn hatred no matter what form it takes.
I am sorry that the Pope's lecture gives rise to such comments.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya Andreas,
I published what was in the Quran and you call it hatred.
Muslims murder all the time. IS that not hatred. They need to get a handle on their sensibilities.
The last comment I heard from a Jihadist was that he was happy over the 911 Bombing in America.
Is that not hatred?
Thanks
Centurion
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
The Pope has done the right thing in apologising for any offence cased by his speech. He should not and must not apologise for the content of that speech because what he said is demonstrably true both of Islam in history and of Islam today. These are no serious, international conflicts in today's world which don't have an Islamic agenda in there somewhere.
We must not give in to the bullying threats of violence from a backward, repressive culture which loves Western money and prosperity, but loathes our values and seeks to destroy them. We have become seriously decadent in the West and with decadence goes weakness. Islam will exploit every weakness we allow it to and use it as an opoprtunity to oppress and destroy us. Anyone who fails to see this will merely accelerate the process.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya Andreas,
Please tell us why we should be interested in Islam and the teaching of Muhammad and the Quran or why we should listen to Muslim IMANS,
TALE OF A VISIT TO A MOSQUE:
I once went to a Mosque in Haringey, London UK while I was learning Islam and in the Mosque they pratted on about the Copts in Egypt as if they were doing something wrong.
I believe that the COPTS (Christian Egyptians) suffer a lot over there in Egypt and if you live in a country like Saudi, even if you think of converting from Islam to Christianity you risk your life, its highly illegal and you have to register with the authorities if you want to preach in that country....
They burn the Bible all the time in Islamic Countries. They have no respect for Christians and Muslim Jihadists would gladly shout 'ALLAHU AKBAR' while they have a Christian at the end of an AK-47 with threats of Convert, beheading or pay taxes.
The Muslims come over here and preach their Quran without being registered somewhere or without threat from Christians... yet they are so insensible that they cannot have that happening in their countries.
Thanks
Centurion
PS Please tell us that your really a Muslim and I would believe you. You even tried to link my comments to what the Pope has said about Religion and Violence. If you want to see the truth go and visit the COPTS in EGYPT and experience life as a COPT in EGYPT.
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
These are no serious, international conflicts in today's world which don't have an Islamic agenda in there somewhere.
Dear PaulTH*, "today" is the key-word. A few centuries ago, one could have substituted "Islamic" for "Christian".
Dear centurion, it is your message of hatred I was talking about. It is you who said these horrible things about Islam. Quoting something the Kuran says is meaningless, unless you are prepared to accepts such quotations from the Christian bible.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya Andreas,
I quoted the Loving Quran, Im already a believer in the Christian faith and Im a Roman Catholic who was outraged by Muslims who recently killed a Roman Catholic Priest in Turkey.
Have you any words to add to that?
What similar quotes from the Bible are there re, Even Leviticus 19:18, Love your neighbour as yourself.
and thats the Old Testament centuries before the New Testament turned up.
The Bible does not teach us to use violence against our enemies Andreas, you should read it some time.
Thanks
Centurion
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya Andreas,
I challenge you to find such comments from the Bible yourself.
If you can find it especially in the New Testament the point me to the Chapter and verses.
I would love to hear you quote such similar things from the Bible as you I quoted from the Quran.
Thanks
Centurion
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya Andreas,
Some more love from the QURAN:
http://religion.krishna.org/Articles/2001/10/008.html
quote:
The Qur'an tells us: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (5:51), "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises "If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them" (8:65).
Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews "until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (9:14).
The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the "non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water" (14:17). It asks the Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (5:34). And tells us that "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (22:19-22) and that they not only will have "disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)" (22:9). The Qur'an says that "those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy" (25:68). For those who "believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be "harsh with unbelievers", our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a "stern command": "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour" (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that "it is good for us even if we dislike it" (2:216). Then he advises us to "strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (47:4). Our God has promised to "instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers" and has ordered us to "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name "it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself" (8:17). He orders us "to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies" (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that "Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (9:73).
Jesus teaches,
LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART.
Love your neighbour as thyself.
That is the LAW AND THE PROPHETS.
Thanks
Centurion
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Islam is a nation and a religion and it's the national interest which is foremost in its jihad, the holy war incumbent on Muslims to demand the submission of all to Islam.
What do you mean 'nation'?
Islam is a world religion i.e. international.
The only reference I know is 'Nation of Islam' which is regarded as heretical.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Most of the Islamic outrage is, of course, not about the jihad side of the quotation but about the insult to Muhammed. It's not a rejection of an analysis of Islamic militancy, but a defence of Muhammed's integrity.
Andreas, what have you been up to recently? What has been influencing you? There are some seriously offensive slants to many of your statements on this and other recent threads. You have always treated me with courtesy and respect. Now I wonder at the sincerity of that since you are closer to Islam than to me. Perhaps you should be on an Islamic discussion board rather than here then, where you can see how much more you have in common with them than with us sub-Christians from Western Europe?
Personally, I think the Holy Father's speeches have been very thought provoking and if anyone should be insulted, it is Western rationalists. I did not hear about the contents of this speech until fire erupted on the streets of Karachi - I wonder why the ordinary Muslim faithful are paying closer attention to the Pope's words than Catholic priests are. Or are they? Is there not perhaps more truth that something of a propaganda opportunity has presented itself to our modern day jihadists?
[ 16. September 2006, 16:52: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
I find this quote from the Kuran most profound:
‘For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily Allah will help those who help His (cause).Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-mighty.’ (Surah Al-Hajj (22), ayah 40)
I hope Christians are humble enough to get taught God's ways by Islam. When I reflect on the current situation though, I cannot find any reason why I should be optimist.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya Andreas,
Thanks for the quotes, If I knew you were an Islamic Apologist I might have been more pleasant to you given the current world climate.
I apologise if I offended you.
There is much good also in the Quran and my quotes may seem a bit one sided.
Thanks
Centurion
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Islam is a nation and a religion and it's the national interest which is foremost in its jihad, the holy war incumbent on Muslims to demand the submission of all to Islam.
What do you mean 'nation'?
Islam is a world religion i.e. international.
The only reference I know is 'Nation of Islam' which is regarded as heretical.
It's a nation because it says it is, its own concept. It's members, Muslims, are citizens with rights. Where a whole area is under its rule non-Muslims are sometimes tolerated but have no rights. Also referred to as the Muslim nation.
http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=164
http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=164
Myrrh
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and thanks for all the fish
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
Good for the Pope. I'll be upset if he apologises. The fact that the Guardian's pet vicar Giles whathisname is cross is a reasonably good indicator that the Pope's on the right track.
Raspberry Rabbit
Penicuik
[ 16. September 2006, 17:31: Message edited by: Raspberry Rabbit ]
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
Good for the Pope. I'll be upset if he apologises. The fact that the Guardian's pet vicar Giles whathisname is cross is a reasonably good indicator that the Pope's on the right track.
Raspberry Rabbit
Penicuik
I don't know if I agree...or disagree. I am honestly reading this thread and wondering.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Islam is a nation and a religion and it's the national interest which is foremost in its jihad, the holy war incumbent on Muslims to demand the submission of all to Islam.
What do you mean 'nation'?
Islam is a world religion i.e. international.
The only reference I know is 'Nation of Islam' which is regarded as heretical.
It's a nation because it says it is, its own concept. It's members, Muslims, are citizens with rights. Where a whole area is under its rule non-Muslims are sometimes tolerated but have no rights. Also referred to as the Muslim nation.
http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=164
http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=164
Myrrh
Your source is quoting the 4 righteous caliphs - i.e. the nation of Saudi Arabia before muslim expansion.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by centurion:
What similar quotes from the Bible are there re, Even Leviticus 19:18, Love your neighbour as yourself.
Personally, Leviticus would not be my first port of call in trying to construct an argument about divine non-violence. I suspect there might be a fairly easy comeback.
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insert amusing sig. here
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
I agree with the final paragraph of the NY Times' editorial:
quote:
The world listens carefully to the words of any pope. And it is tragic and dangerous when one sows pain, either deliberately or carelessly. He needs to offer a deep and persuasive apology, demonstrating that words can also heal.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Centurion:
quote:
TALE OF A VISIT TO A MOSQUE:
I once went to a Mosque in Haringey, London UK while I was learning Islam and in the Mosque they pratted on about the Copts in Egypt as if they were doing something wrong.
Not Finsbury Park by any chance? If so I'd no more take Finsbury Park Mosque as being representative of Islam than I'd take Mel Gibson as being representative of Roman Catholicism.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by centurion:
Hiya Andreas,
Thanks for the quotes, If I knew you were an Islamic Apologist
I'm not sure stating that there is truth in Islam makes someone an 'Islamic Apologist'. After all, a council of the Church of which you are a member has this to say about Islam :-
quote:
Originally posted by the Second Vatican Council
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
The final paragraph, in particular, repays meditation in the current context.
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Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya DivineOutlawDwarf,
If you look carefully on the net you will also see that the last POPE also in the interests of interfaith dialogue kissed the KORAN while entertaining visits from Mulsim IMANS.
Now it is in the interests of Christians to show Christ to their Muslims brothers and sisters, this is true. What we want is to spread the love of Christ around and show therefore to Muslims the light of the Gospel.
The Current Pope is not going to get much manouvreing room from the Muslims as before he became the Pontiff he said remarks that Muslims didnt like very much regarding Turkey and the EU.
Muslims are being very much demanding at the Moment that the Pope somehow disclaims association with a remark from history of a certain Christian Emperor.
We're living in the 21st Century and Muslims sensibilities are offended yet again, before it was the Cartoons, which the Pope said we should be cautious about showing disrespect for Muslims and he did say something to that effect. Meanwhile the Muslims went and walked even over the Crucifix and burned Christian flags and destroyed embassies and burned everything in site.
I hope that the Pope will be guided by GOD so that he can show that he is the Vicar of Christ and so show the Muslims that this deliberate posturing on this is going to work out worse for them in the long run as they will show Islam to be inheritantly hostile and unruely regarding the West while we generally are tolerant and take in Muslim refugees and send aid to people affected by Tsunamis' they are out (Radical Muslims) burning and killing and try to terrorise the west into GOD knows what.
I hope that the Pontiff sits back and lets the Muslim Imans show some concience about their antics and stuff over such a historical remark to Islam. If they want to show that they are not living in the Past them let them teach their Imans to teach Muslims to be tolerant of Christians and let their Imans preach Love of their Neighbour instead of Muslim violence and burnings of effigies.
I dont think Muslims will be tolerant or that they will back down on this and they will probably keep demands up that the Pope strong disassociates himself from the sentiments of the Byzantine emperor. I hope that reasonable Imans will teach young Muslims to understand that Christians dont see all Muslims as evil and twisted bombers hell bent of destroying westerners.
They need to examine themselves first before making demands from Christians I feel they are still trying to put pressures on the Vatican over this matter and it stinks.
Thanks
Centurion
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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centurion
Shipmate
# 11759
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Posted
Hiya All,
IF the Pope does not dissasociate from the Remark regarding the Byzantine Emperor:
We can expect something of the following:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5352404.stm
quote:
"If the Vatican says something dumb about Muslims, people will die in parts of Africa and churches will be burned in Indonesia, let alone what happens in the Middle East.
Muslims will show the violence that is inherent withing their faith and kill Christians over this.
Thanks
Centurion
Posts: 171 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2006
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Centurion,
In your penultimate post you said that
quote:
I hope that reasonable Imans will teach young Muslims to understand that Christians dont see all Muslims as evil and twisted bombers hell bent of destroying westerners.
Subsequently, you tell us,
quote:
Muslims will show the violence that is inherent withing their faith and kill Christians over this.
Do you think that one way in which young Muslims might be helped to see that 'Christians don't see all Muslims as evil and twisted bombers' would be through some Christians ceasing to give the impression that they do see precisely that?
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insert amusing sig. here
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Bonaventura
Wise Drunkard
# 1066
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Posted
andreas, (and others)
Is this sentiment from the pope's speech, especially the last sentence, the reason you say Orthodoxy is closer to Islam than Western Christianity?
quote:
In all honesty, one must observe that in the late Middle Ages we find trends in theology which would sunder this synthesis between the Greek spirit and the Christian spirit. In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which ultimately led to the claim that we can only know God's voluntas ordinata. Beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done. This gives rise to positions which clearly approach those of Ibn Hazn and might even lead to the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness. God's transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions.
Is the islamic doctrine of God as here described the true, logical endpoint of a truly apophatic approach to theology?
[ 16. September 2006, 19:25: Message edited by: Bonaventura ]
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“I think you are all mistaken in your theological beliefs. The God or Gods of Christianity are not there, whether you call them Father, Son and Holy Spirit or Aunt, Uncle and Holy Cow.” -El Greco
Posts: 473 | From: Et in Arcadia requiesco | Registered: Feb 2004
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