|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: When you're hanging on by your fingernails....
|
Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
[Because you supposedly have the Holy Spirit to "sanctify" you, unlike the rest of us.
It doesn't follow that that makes Christians better. Christianity is about salvation. Salvation doesn't necessarily make on morally, ethically or even aesthetically better. And one find perfectly good (one might say superior) moral, ethical or aesthetic systems to follow to make one "better", but presumably the Christian is a Christian in order to be saved. Morality, ethics and Beauty/Goodness may be (should be) by-products of this but not necessarily so.
And if one is a Christian for some other reason that one connected to salvation, I would submit one is essentially a Christian because one enjoys a good Stanford canticle at Choral Evensong.
(which is, incidentally, my answer to the OP: Choral Evensong. Even if it's all made up and I rot in the ground for all eternity, at least I had Choral Evensong. And I generally leave Choral Evensong pretty sure it's not all made up).
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
|
Posted
Sheep? Goats? Dogs? Cats?
"When you're hanging on by your fingernails..." Buy a pet?
Laura,
Yes, it was a serious question; although this thread appears to have become somewhat side-tracked.
quote:
They don't want to run your damned maze.
Once, when I was constructing a bookcase, next-door's kitten paid a visit and had a wonderful time running around and under the cardboard in which the furniture had arrived. For a few days I arranged the cardboard into a series of tunnels and platforms, which 'Minnie' delighted in exploring - its head occasionally popping up from unexpected openings with a wonderfully bemused expression.
Tragically, its favorite playground was the road...
I apologise for my inappropriate term of address; would MEO be more suitable?
And I look forward to your answer (on the serious question that is)
S-E
MEO? No, I was not alluding to a feline utterence: most esteemed one -
However, I promise that in all our future interactions I shall refer to you simply as Laura. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
presumably the Christian is a Christian in order to be saved. Morality, ethics and Beauty/Goodness may be (should be) by-products of this but not necessarily so.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by salvation. If you understand salvation as the process by which we become by grace what God is by nature, then you would expect that, in general, people in the process of being saved would show some evidence of it. The fact that, in general, and on the average, we show so little evidence of it is, to me, discouraging.
And, if I'm brutally honest, my reasons for attending Church don't all relate to salvation anyway. Some do. And it's probably the salvation-related reasons that keep me there. But there are other reasons to go to Church -- to see friends, to visit with people you care about that you don't see for the rest of the week.
At least that's the case for me. And since I some of my reasons for attending Church are social rather than soteriological, when I find that I don't connect socially with many of the people there, for various reasons, I begin to wonder if it's worth it.
Not if the Christian faith is. I don't have any doubt about that. But Church, rather than being a place of warmth and nurturing and safety and such, sometimes feels like a minefield.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Okay, for all of you (and there have been many) who say that when you let go, Jesus and/or God caught you, what does that mean? What do you mean by "let go" and what do you mean by "caught" or "didn't let go of me"?
When I say "let go" I mean abandoning all pretense of believing something that I don't believe, and ceasing all effort to convince myself that I really do believe it after all. That's clearly not what the rest of you mean.
My wife let go last year and she said exactly this kind of thing. To herit turns out none of it ever had been real. She wanted it to be true, she wanted to keep family together and now..well it is time to be honest. She simply doesn't and never did believe and she found it a great relief to stop pretending.
--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
my answer to the OP: Choral Evensong. Even if it's all made up and I rot in the ground for all eternity, at least I had Choral Evensong. And I generally leave Choral Evensong pretty sure it's not all made up.
Which is one very good reason why, no matter how many other services the church experiments with, they should never give up on Choral Evensong.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
See here. It happens to a lot of people. And the third collect in Evensong says it all for the many many of us who have been there.
"Lighten our darkness we beseech Thee O Lord".
Hard to pray that prayer when you're close to concluding that the darkness may be all there is, and the Light you thought you have seen an illusion. But that's where its at sometimes.
In her blog linked to the Jonathan Edwards article, I think Libby Purvis is right to point to the dangers of hanging everything on a particular kind of conversion theology and its associated ecclesiology. But its a door through which I entered. From experience, I now know the dangers very well and have worked through them. But I don't think I would be here now without finding God through that door. There are many of us who can say that.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hard to pray that prayer when you're close to concluding that the darkness may be all there is, and the Light you thought you have seen an illusion.
But may not the 'darkness' be an illusion as well?
My world is multi-coloured: And whils't there may be moments of blackness; there are also times of blinding illumination.
Is Jonathon Edwards any the less happy because of his loss of faith? Perhaps; and he may also have moments of greater enjoyment now that it is not coloured by an over-arching prism which obscured his view of reality.
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If you understand salvation as the process by which we become by grace what God is by nature, then you would expect that, in general, people in the process of being saved would show some evidence of it. The fact that, in general, and on the average, we show so little evidence of it is, to me, discouraging.
But isn't that the problem? You expect people to be something other than what they are?
To be inhuman in fact?
If you don't view people as 'sinners'; the whole 'We're not worthy' thing; but simply as beings which have evolved with a complexity of desires which are sometimes advantageous; occasionally deleterious; and generally benign then one's view of the world takes on a whole new complexion.
From my perspective there are no 'worthy' or 'unworthy' individuals - there are only people: and as far as I'm concerned they all have worth.
And this view is flawed because?
S-E
--------------------
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic-Enigma:
From my perspective there are no 'worthy' or 'unworthy' individuals - there are only people: and as far as I'm concerned they all have worth.
Strongly agreed. I just think that this "worth" is in many cases potential, not assumed. All men and women are created equal, but what they do from their relatively equal states is another matter entirely.
And I think everybody screws up sometimes (which to me, is all being a sinner really means). That's just human. It's not, IMO, supposed to be an excuse for guilt tripping folks or building hierarchies of the saved. It's just accepting people as they are, meritorious parts, deleterious parts, and all.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
Speaking for myself, I'd say religion is for us poor sinners who hope for and ask for God's help so that we don't get all twisted up and maimed in life (twisted and maimed usually by our own hands, BTW). Christians have an example of this to work with, and we - hopefully - operate on the "Imitation of Christ" as a first principle.
I can only speak to Christianity because it's all I know.
And that's all there is to it, really, IMO. If there are people who can avoid the (self-)twisting and (self-)maiming on their own, more power to them.
(Of course, a lot of us like the music and colorful processions, too.)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Speaking for myself, I'd say religion is for us poor sinners who hope for and ask for God's help so that we don't get all twisted up and maimed in life (twisted and maimed usually by our own hands, BTW). Christians have an example of this to work with, and we - hopefully - operate on the "Imitation of Christ" as a first principle.
I can only speak to Christianity because it's all I know.
And that's all there is to it, really, IMO. If there are people who can avoid the (self-)twisting and (self-)maiming on their own, more power to them.
(Of course, a lot of us like the music and colorful processions, too.)
I just wanted to correct something I wrote above: that we are "twisted and maimed usually by our own hands."
"Usually" should be replaced by "often"; sometimes people are harmed simply by dint of who they are or where they happen to live - under which tyrant or oppressive economic system - or because of the prejudice of others. Sometimes they're born with disability of some kind. Sometimes life just plain treats people like crap, and people get messed up because of one thing or another in this list.
And that's another answer to "why faith," BTW. Many people depend on it - and always have - to get them through otherwise impossible situations: slaves in America before the civil war; poor people everywhere; the sick, the destitute, the mentally ill, the addicted, the friendless, the lost. God grant that it always be so.
I'm tired of being told by the privileged that we're all supposed to quit "behaving religiously" now. Atheism is a luxury.
As somebody said elsewhere: Shut up, Dawkins.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMiram:
Atheism is a luxury.
As somebody said elsewhere: Shut up, Dawkins.
Would you prefer people such as myself to be banned from the boards?
Or perhaps restricted to only posting on non-religious topics?
Is Faith so fragile - that it cannot withstand even a meagre scrutiny?
And because it provides succour to some, we should over-look the prejudice, oppression and promotion of ignorance that it also engenders?
My unbelief is neither a luxury, nor a necessity: It simply is. I can no more believe in God than in fairies.
Do Christians need to be cossetted from those with views different to themselves?
I have been told that I only attack 'Straw men'; and so I am waiting to be shown a REAL man.
I'm still waiting.
S-E
--------------------
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic-Enigma:
Would you prefer people such as myself to be banned from the boards?
Nobody has suggested that. quote:
Or perhaps restricted to only posting on non-religious topics?
Of course not. quote:
Is Faith so fragile - that it cannot withstand even a meager scrutiny?
Mine's been withstanding your scrutiny, as well as the scrutiny of an entire pack of dittohead atheists on another board. I haven't really persuaded them, and they haven't really persuaded me. It gets really dull after a while...same arguments, same refutations, same arguments, same refutations... ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
You can argue your particular brand of logic until you're blue in the face, but if you don't know how to actually be persuasive to people who aren't already of your mindset, it doesn't work.
Also, faith is trust. It's an emotional thing, not really a logical thing, which is one thing I think atheists have trouble with. You can't touch it because I simply don't care what you think, and I don't put a lot of stock in intellectual constructs. Life is a lot more than intellectualizing everything in existence into a pigeonhole. quote:
And because it provides succor to some, we should over-look the prejudice, oppression and promotion of ignorance that it also engenders?
That's your straw man. You look at the most oppressive acts of humanity throughout history, and assume it's a theological issue. I look at it, and see a human issue. Wiping religion out of the world is not going to change the fact that some people are just mean and some people will do anything to further their own agendas. If anything, they'll make up a new ideological excuse for their rampant assholery.
The religious people I associate with are very, very fervently anti-oppression, anti-prejudice, and anti-ignorance.
Surely, you have been on this board long enough to realize that not all Christians, in fact I'd say many Christians, are not Jerry Falwell wannabes, Pat Robertson idolizers, and Rush Limbaugh dittoheads. quote:
My unbelief is neither a luxury, nor a necessity: It simply is. I can no more believe in God than in fairies.
Good for you. My faith simply is, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with fairies. quote:
Do Christians need to be cosseted from those with views different to themselves?
No, it's just that most Christians have more important things to do than argue with people. Also, our notions of "Christianity" are two completely different logical constructs. quote:
I have been told that I only attack 'Straw men'; and so I am waiting to be shown a REAL man.
I'm right here. quote:
I'm still waiting.
For what? All of us to give in and kow tow to your logical superiority? To prove God to you when you have no desire or apparent need to have your views changed? For the letters "I EXIST" to appear in flames in the sky so that you can have your personal miracle?
You're in for a long wait in any case...
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMiram:
Atheism is a luxury.
As somebody said elsewhere: Shut up, Dawkins.
Would you prefer people such as myself to be banned from the boards?
Or perhaps restricted to only posting on non-religious topics?
Is Faith so fragile - that it cannot withstand even a meagre scrutiny?
And because it provides succour to some, we should over-look the prejudice, oppression and promotion of ignorance that it also engenders?
My unbelief is neither a luxury, nor a necessity: It simply is. I can no more believe in God than in fairies.
Do Christians need to be cossetted from those with views different to themselves?
I have been told that I only attack 'Straw men'; and so I am waiting to be shown a REAL man.
I'm still waiting.
S-E
Hit a nerve there, did I? Interesting to me that that's the only part of my post you chose to quote.....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
|
Posted
mirrizin
My comments are not necessarily (or even primarily) directed at those who respond: There may be someone, possibly just a visitor; who is wondering whether 'unbelief' is a legitimate position - and what are the implications.
And my concerns with religion are not simply historical (although as the adage suggests:'one ignores history at one's peril' - it was interesting that TM mentioned the solace that religion brought to African American slaves - conveniently ignoring the fact that the 'owners' utilised the sanction of the Bible to justify their oppression. This is pertinent because I'm currently having a discussion with some young men on another board, who are vainly trying to defend the Bible's position)
Leaving aside for a moment, the crimes agains't human rights which distinguish many Islamic regimes (although they alone justify the attacks on superstition) -
Today; In a significant number of American States, it is impossible for a young woman to obtain a safe, legal, medically supervised abortion - because of religious persecution.
Similarly: In many of those same states there is limited (or for many in small towns no) access to birth control measures, because the Pharmacist/drug store proprietor has decided that it is immoral and agains't Christian principles.
Despite the fact that it's use is approved in Australia, it is impossible for a woman in Australia to obtain RU486, because our 'Catholic' Health Minister has allowed the perception to arise that any drug company that imports it will suffer accordingly.
Currently, millions of American children are being taught that evolution is a myth; and disturbingly also many in Australia and I suspect in the UK.
When I returned to University in the mid-nineties, I was bewildered at how many intelligent young people had a 'Creationist' view of the world - this had been unknown when I first attended in the late '70s.
And the continuing prejudice / persecution of homosexuals has no religious basis?
But this is not your Christianity: Yours is an all-encompassing, unprejudiced, humanist doctrine - to which no compassionate open-minded free-thinker can possibly object?
But if one superstition is legitimate then all are: which our High Court recently concluded after a series of cases stretching over 20 years involving the 'Church (sic) of Scientology'.
And if it is the 'Stawman' form of Christianity which is rapidly expanding; then it is not possible to attack it, without challenging your version as well (to be honest I find the 'Conservative Evangelical' position easier to understand - there is something inherently contradictory about the 'Liberal Christian' who happily jettisons large slabs of the Bible because they are 'inconvenient')
And no, I'm not for a moment suggesting that we prevent or impede evangelising: On the contrary, that's why many of 'us Atheists' have entered the fray - the 'Live and let Live' approach has only seen an increase in the promotion of ignorance.
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
...because I simply don't care what you think
That saddens me: I have a respect for, and interest in all the comments on the threads in which I am involved (and their progenitors) whether I agree with them or not.
And I have never thought of you as anything other than a real man (it was after all, simply a descriptor of arguments ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
I look forward to our future interactions.
S-E
P.S. Have you read Dawkins' TGD ?
--------------------
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
This will only be the 7,340th time I've said this in my life, but the 20th Century was the bloodiest of all time - wall-to-wall with massacres, most of which occurred in explicitly atheist states: the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, etc. Which I suppose goes to show that human beings can be vicious and unfeeling bastards, both with religion and without it - so what was your point again?
My point is that people who are oppressed and distressed often lean on faith for support; perhaps you've never been in that place yourself and can't identify. (It is quite interesting to me that the most ardent atheists all seem to be highly-educated upper-class Western white males.) It's true that slaveholders argued for slavery using religion; they also argued for it using economic rationales. So is economics intrinsically evil, then? Again, what's your point?
I have to repeat my opinion that in earlier eras and in different circumstances you would, along with almost everybody else, have indeed believed in fairies (or God, or gods).
What's really annoying to me is the Elmer Gantryesque huckstering for atheism - the (false) assurances that "someone will catch us when we fall," etc. If you'd just started out by criticizing the excesses of religion, you'd have found most of us would have agreed with you readily. What bothers me most, though - and perhaps it bothers others as well - is that this thread was started by someone who was asking for help in finding his faith again. It really seems that you don't care much about that, and it's not quite kosher, I'd say, to go trolling for converts on such a thread.
And really: you might note that most of us are having a fine time debating with Dogwonderer and other nonbelievers; the difference is that he's straightforward and starts his own threads when he wants to talk about his atheism.
(You do realize that we've heard all these arguments a million times, don't you? It's not anything new; the world is a hard place, and people can be bastards. Buck up, dear. And again: please refrain from using gay people to make your anti-religion points. Not interesting.)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
TubaMirum said quote:
... I don't want to derail a thread whose topic is religious belief and how to hold onto it...
I thought it was more like "why do you bother to hang on".
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
HOSTS: I do not intend to turn this into a dead horse thread, honest!
EVERYONE ELSE: Please do not turn this into a discussion of dead horse material. You know where to go. Any mention I make of homosexuality or abortion is merely to answer Socratic-Enigma's post as examples and answers to his questions.
Thanks. That said...
Socratic Enigma:
Here's some thoughts. Take them as you will.
Atheism is certainly a legitimate belief. I have no desire to persecute, decry, blast, mock, etc. atheists. Hell, with regard to fundamentalism and its ills, I can sympathize. In some ways, I sympathize more strongly with atheists than I do with what I refer to, somewhat facetiously, as fundagelical Christians.
If you actually read the bible, it's about freedom from oppression, not oppression, and using it to justify oppression, to my eyes, usually requires a very, very warped reading of the biblical text.
Whenever Paul mentioned slaves respecting their masters, he would follow up by saying masters should be kind to their slaves and remember that God is master over all. To use that as an excuse to justify a rather perverse (certainly peculiar) institution in the states was, quite frankly, an abomination.
Not to mention that Greco-Roman or Hebrew slave traditions were completely different animals than the American variety.
And on that note, I think a sufficiently mean and ideologically fixated person could turn any ideology into a weapon, if given enough power and enough angry and/or frightened people willing to listen. That's not a uniquely Christian problem, as I like to say, that's a human problem, and if the church does its job (HA!), it should try to do something about that. In some places, I believe that it does.
I'm not Muslim, so I'm not going to speak for Islam anymore than to say I live near an Muslim neighborhood and so far, nothing has blown up. I've also shopped at some Muslim-owned stores and found the people to be very gracious and generally friendly.
Abortion is an issue I'm very wary of. I personally don't like the idea of having an abortion as a mere matter of convenience, but I also don't think it's the government's job to meddle. I have this weird idea that a person's life is their responsibility, and I don't think it's the government's job to rob them of that responsibility. Also, as a church, we should be there to pick up the pieces, and if we don't, ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) sums my opinion up nicely.
The persecution of homosexuals has a very flimsy biblical basis at best. My spin on that is that what Paul was writing about was Greco Roman sexuality. Comparing modern homosexuality to Greco Roman hedonism, to my eyes (based on some classics majors I knew in college) like comparing modern prison systems to a Nazi death camp.
Pedophilia was very, very popular in ancient Greece and Rome, for instance. It was great to penetrate. Temple prostitution was also very common, and I do think prostitution is generally unethical, possibly because I have sympathy with women who get stuck in those kinds of straits.
Taking what I suspect was Paul's attitude towards that and applying it to modern, more or less monogamous homosexual couples is ridiculous.
My Christianity is basically on the Micah model of doing justice, loving kindness, and walking humbly with God. Love thy neighbor, love God. Take care of people because that's what we're here to do.
Then again, I'm also a bleeding heart liberal, so go figure.
Legitimate? Depends on what you mean by legitimate. I naturally think that Christianity has a better system than other religions (and yes, I'm biased, but I have my reasons too), but I don't think that's the same as saying they aren't "legitimate." People have the right to worship as they choose, as long as they're not harming anyone.
I think there are very biblically consistent ways to tear down fundagelical Christianity, a few of which I mentioned above. Ultimately, we're not here to condemn, we have no way of knowing who the "elect" are (assuming such exist), and Christ didn't come so we could declare ourselves gods and lord it over everyone around us. We're here to forgive and to heal, not to condemn and punish. It's honestly a very biblically consistent attitude.
I don't jettison any part of the bible. I will admit that it's not a literal history, and I will admit that it has to be read within context, but I'm really happy to say the whole thing is useful.
For instance, I actually really enjoy reading Psalm 137, for instance. It gives a really wonderful lesson on why you shouldn't oppress people, and it's really a very eloquent demonstration of what it feels like to be driven face-down into the dirt. It might not be a pleasant thought, but it's true and it's a useful reading.
When I say "I don't care what you think," it doesn't mean I disregard you or your thoughts. It means I've heard this argument before and it doesn't really phase me. I just think you have a very jaded and narrow (though honest and justified) notion of what religion means.
Ya know what's funny? So do I. That's why I have faith in God. As young as I am, I've known too many people. The universe is about more than us.
I'm a big fan of live and let live. I'd be more than happy to help you put another nail in the coffin of neo-con fundamentalism.
I just don't want to see my own church get torn down in the process.
And FWIW, I think the days of the Bushes are numbered. We've seen what this new fundamentalism can do, and it's fruits are most bitter indeed.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
My unbelief is neither a luxury, nor a necessity: It simply is. I can no more believe in God than in fairies.
That's just because you've never seen a fairy.
At this point, asking me to not believe in G-d is akin to asking me to believe that I'm a brain in a vat; it contradicts everything I think I know about the world and how to get around in it. I know that isn't true of a lot of people - and I don't expect them to privilege my experience over theirs (and I assume yours). But it's still true, and why many of these conversations don't tend to go anywhere... My belief is definitely not about fear; or habit; or comfort; or a ready answer to every question; or something to fill the void. It's about responding to something that has given every indication of being real.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... to the whole religion thing (assuming you ever are in such a position), what's the one thing that stops you letting go?
Or, to put it another way - on those days* when the whole of Christianity, from start to finish, seems just one long line of platitudinous crap, what's the one thing that stops you walking away from it all?
(* For me, at the moment, any day when I've read the Church Times.)
An empty tomb and no one could come up with a body. The apostles' testimony and unwavering commitment after seeing Jesus get done in. One of them was a tax collector. No one's going to hang out with a tax collector to promote a lie about something that isn't even going to put dough in their pocket.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
That's just because you've never seen a fairy.
Or their spoor; or discarded clothing; or shedded wings; or footprints; or the fact that to even surmise their existence is contradictory to everything we know from biology.
quote:
At this point, asking me to not believe in G-d is akin to asking me to believe that I'm a brain in a vat; it contradicts everything I think I know about the world and how to get around in it.
I don't see how - if you were a brain in a vat (or a character in "The Matrix"), what you know about the world and how you get around; would in any way contradict it. How would you know? That is the problem of induction.
At best we can only assume that the world is as we perceive it. I have always thought that the best defence is 'Ockham's Razor' and evolution (that the perception of the world which most closely correlates to how the world actually is will be selected for). William provides the reasoning and Charles the explanation.
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
Whenever Paul mentioned slaves respecting their masters, he would follow up by saying masters should be kind to their slaves and remember that God is master over all. To use that as an excuse to justify a rather perverse (certainly peculiar) institution in the states was, quite frankly, an abomination.
So, slavery is alright as long as you're kind to your slave? Are you sure you're not masquerading on another board as a computer programming student from Sydney?
My position is pretty simple: Owning another human being is abhorrent. Full Stop. Always was, is and will be.
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
I thought it was more like "why do you bother to hang on".
I questioned whether my contributions were appropriate before/ and after my initial posts.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Posted by Socratic-enigma:
What is preventing you - fear? Simple anxiety; or merely habit?
Good question. Very good question....
Now I realise that simply starting a thread does not convey any proprietorship - but surely their comments are worthy of a certain respect. If Adeodatus had simply wanted affirmation, then surely he would have started this thread in Ecclesiantics or Kergymania.
Purgatory
our space for serious debate (yes, really)
And if someone is hanging on by their fingernails are they not entitled to hear from someone who has 'let go' and the possible consequences: and the questions which led them to such a decision?
And I did only re-enter the thread after someone maligned a poor, innocent and (largely) defenceless goat.
Now who was that?
S-E
--------------------
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
|
Posted
quote:
S-E:
But I must say that I enjoyed your previous post Laura. It was a measured and intelligent response and almost complimentary to my contributions (OK, that's stretching it!).
Er, just out of interest... and because my irony detector is malfunctioning, is the humourous twist to this statement that you recognise your own intellectual feebleness and the sub-par nature of your contributions compared to Laura's, or were you really implying that Laura's responses are 'almost (at a stretch) as good as my own'?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
S-E:
to be honest I find the 'Conservative Evangelical' position easier to understand - there is something inherently contradictory about the 'Liberal Christian' who happily jettisons large slabs of the Bible because they are 'inconvenient'
(My bold) Yes, Laura (at top of page). I am tired of S-E's strawmen.
S-E, I'm just saying this 'cos I am kind, right. No-one else commented on the above bold. When things like that go by and no-one says anything, what that means is, your credibility and academic rigour is so low that people can't be bothered engaging you any more.
Just sayin'.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
I don't jettison any part of the bible. I will admit that it's not a literal history, and I will admit that it has to be read within context, but I'm really happy to say the whole thing is useful.
I, for one, do not consider mirrizin no-one; on the contrary, I have a great deal of respect for his opinions, and value my interactions with him.
Laura,
When next you despatch one of your eunuchs, can you at least ensure that they have the good grace to actually read the thread before passing comment(or was that wind).
S-E
--------------------
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I can't say I've read the whole of this thread (and I gave up more or less completely after it moved onto sheep and goats) but personally I've found it the most moving thing I've read on the boards since Fields of Gold (or possibly the sadly lost Speaking in Tongues thread in Heaven).
I could say similar things to others who have posted but for now I too will go with the famous rachel
quote:
a savage in chains, dragged along by this Christ from whom I cannot escape
and am inspired by the thought of getting to meet other savages here when we all eventually get to the end of the parade, "wake up after Thy likeness", and are "satisfied".
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
And I did only re-enter the thread after someone maligned a poor, innocent and (largely) defenceless goat.
Now who was that?
That would have been me. And I am heartily sorry that I used that particular metaphor, and didn't stick with the wheat and the tares, because your inability to see the point of what was being said over the wall of your own ignorance and prejudice has derailed what was a thought-provoking and moving thread.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
This really should go on. I can't contribute anything useful at the moment but I'm getting one helluva lot from pages 1-3.
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
hild
Shipmate
# 6042
|
Posted
I'm definitely very fingertippish at the moment. And have been for some time now.
I don't want to go into the whys and wherefores, but it's reassuring in a way to know there are so many others in similar situations.
I can't not believe at all; I can't continue believing as I used to. I have a wonderful husband who still believes very strongly, and I can very much sympathise with those who hang on because they don't want to hurt or worry those they love. It becomes very hard to talk with them about faith in this situation.
To those who are getting into the inevitable, repetitive arguments: yes, we have heard these ideas before. But feel free to continue posting, and I shall feel free to skim your posts.
To those who are, like me, not sure where to go from here, or how, or if it's possible to let go (or find a way of hanging on a little longer): thank you for your company. Please let us know how you get on. I shall try to do the same.
Hild.
--------------------
still journeying
Posts: 79 | From: Durham | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
Laura,
When next you despatch one of your eunuchs, can you at least ensure that they have the good grace to actually read the thread before passing comment(or was that wind).
S-E
I'm sure a host will be happy to point out that calling another poster names is a violation of the third commandment. While I appreciate the PM apology, I think it's JimmyB you owe one to. You can dispute his premises here without calling him names.
Anyway, I haven't got any minions that I'm aware of.
Regarding Occam's or Ockham's razor, which everyone loves to toss around, as a logical maxim it has the risk of being too reductive. Was it Einstein who said that explanations should be as simple as possible, but no simpler? The problem with Occam's razor is the assumption behind it, which was enunciated by others before Occam as well (like Aquinas) Why is the simpler theory more likely to be true? There is a fairly complex philosophical history behind that principle.
But let's take one example of a situation in which Occam's razor might lead one the wrong way: in medicine, application of Occam's razor might drive the diagnostician to pick a rare disease that covers all of a patient's set of symptoms, yet as Hickam's dictum states, "patents can have as many diseases as they damned well please". In medicine, it's generally far more likely that a patient with a constellation of symptoms has a combination of common conditions rather than one rare one.
Anyway, the point is, Occam's razor might be a useful assist, but it isn't logically dispositive. And remember that many of us are not making logically comparable claims about the same phenomenon, which is the circumstance in which Occam's razor is useful.
To pare down the heart of the disagreement between Atheism and Faith of some sort into two theories which can be compared is difficult. I suppose the central positions would be:
1) there is a God or gods who do something, (because there are many teachings about gods) and
2) there is no God of any sort.
How do we apply Occam's razor to this? Both are equally unprovable assertions with rich philosophical histories. You can only get to Occam's razor if you inject other assumptions to the statements above - a false dichotomy like arguing that accepting the existence of God means you have to reject modern science. You could, however, go within a particular tradition and select the Resurrection and have an argument about that, and of course, Christians themselves disagree about what happened that day.
Also, the question of Bad Things Christians Do is entirely logically irrelevant to whether there is truth in its teachings. So all that other stuff is just irrelevant. Like your assertion that religion is bad because there are women in South Dakota who can't get an abortion. In a democracy, the availability of abortion is dependent upon the law and the willingness of health care providers to provide the service in that place. It may be religious conviction which compels citizens to oppose abortion legally, just as it was religious conviction that compelled many opponents of American chattel slavery and also the civil rights movement of the 1960s and 70s. That's the way democracy works. It is also illegal for public schools to teach creationism, at least in the US, but because we don't have thought police, parents can teach their children stupid things if they want to.
Anyway, that's a really long post.
I'm off to bake cookies. I have a theory about whether it's better to use brown or white sugar or a combination of both that I have to test empirically.
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
Oh, and a general note to our latest atheist shipmate:
I think you'll find that some of the irritation at some of the cheaper shots atheists make on this board is that we do this quite a bit. We have a number of atheist members and about every quarter we seem to pick up an evangelical atheist who leaps aboard, to show us all with brilliance the wrongness of faith, especially Christianity. Then one of two things happens: i) they get angry when they to win converts and flame out and either stomp away or sometimes behave in such a way as to get banned; ii) they get sucked in by our pleasant community and general intelligence and reasonableness and find themselves staying in spite of themselves or quietly drifting off. Guess which one is better? You can apply Occam's razor if you wish.
Because nobody has ever converted anyone to atheism here. It has happened to some over time as a natural result of the sort of constant examination we do. And - warning, it's happened the other way, too. But you're not really asking new questions -- reasonable people ask themselves these questions all the time. It's like smoking - you think smokers don't know it's bad for them? Christians have mostly thought about many of the objections to faith.
That's not to say you shouldn't feel free to knock yourself out asking them. I want you to understand some of the irritation and/or even hostility you may occasionally find.
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
What Laura said.
That's my experience too. I don't get annoyed when atheists ask questions. I get annoyed when they ask the same questions, over and over again, as if I didn't hear them correctly the first time, or expect that somehow I'm going to be knocked flat by some profound philosophical argument involving teapots orbiting Mars (just for one example).
Also, the imputation that Christians are generally misogynist, racist, homophobic, oppressive, etc. bothers me since my church tends to make very, very strong stands against all of the above. I know we're not necessarily a majority, but I don't think that makes our witness invalid or somehow makes us "the exception that proves the rule."
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
Laura,
When next you despatch one of your eunuchs, can you at least ensure that they have the good grace to actually read the thread before passing comment(or was that wind).
S-E
Apart from being a cheap shot,Socratic-enigma that is a personal attack on two posters and thus a breach of Commandment 3.
Josephine, referring to another another poster's "ignorance and prejudice" is acceptable only in Hell - not in Purgatory.
Generally - this is a worthy thread and I don't want to see it derailed further by comments about the posting styles of atheists as if they were a uniform group with annoying debating habits.
We like strong debate here. We encourage it. Just leave any personal attacks or getting overly personal to Hell.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
[typo]
[ 02. July 2007, 03:03: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
--------------------
Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
|
Posted
As a dedicated fence sitter, the many apologetics I have read for both atheism and christianity have always sent me running rapidly in the opposite direction. When one doesn't have a definite leaning for or against, they simply appear as completely circular arguments, preaching to the choir, only convincing if you already are inclined to believe one way or the other.
So if none of the arguments always have a contrary effect on me, fence-sitter for many decades, why should they convert someone who actually firmly believes one side or the other of the debate?
I think people with genuine beliefs have those beliefs somewhere deep in their core personality from an early age. With deepest apologies to any shipmates who had conversion experiences, I think that these are simply manifestations of a deep-seated need to be a True Believer in something.
As far as the OP
quote:
When you're hanging on by your fingernails... to the whole religion thing (assuming you ever are in such a position), what's the one thing that stops you letting go?
Or, to put it another way - on those days* when the whole of Christianity, from start to finish, seems just one long line of platitudinous crap, what's the one thing that stops you walking away from it all?
my advice would be to let go. That doesn't mean that you totally give up on your faith, merely that you accept that you only have a fingernail faith. Stop worrying about Being a Christian, and start thinking about what you actually believe and how God is (or isn't) working in your life.
It won't be easy or comfortable, but my experience is that God will give you what you need if you are willing to listen. In my case, I'm intellectually (as an adult) Buddhist/Hindu, but totally steeped from childhood with an odd combination of Baha'i teachings (my Dad), UU (my Mom), Roman Catholicism and Baptist (my early environment).
Despite roughly twenty years of trying to become a practicing Buddhist, my musical inclinations had me firmly settled into the RCC. Another ten years or so and I gave up and gave in. I still don't consider myself a Christian (don't tell my priest or the Pope!) and I fervently wish that I could be part of a nice high-church Anglo-Catholic tat enclave, but...
I have found people at both my RCC and Baptist churches who have provided what I need (both personally and as part of my spiritual journey) and I suspect and hope that I have been able to help others in turn.
I don't "believe" all the credal stuff, but I do believe that I am in a place that I am supposed to be and have learned and will learn what I need to know. At this point, I trust that God will go on patiently nagging me, and that I will continue to be my obstinate self and thus it will take way more time and effort than it perhaps should.
It is difficult on the practical personal level. I'm the opposite of Scot; my involvement with the Church and with God creates a barrier, a gulf, with my atheistic/agnostic spouse and children. It takes up a lot of my life and thoughts, and they really aren't interested, so I can't talk about it with them.
The bottom line is that we can only be who we are. I believe that we are all manifestations of God and thus whatever we happen to be living out is God experiencing the infinite variety of existence through our (and all of creation's) particular existence. On the other hand, God may be simply a figment of human imagination. In which case, we can only be who we are. So the bottom line is the same.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
One piece of advice a friend gave another friend is this. If you think there might be a God, what is the nature of this maybe-God? Try living as you would if this maybe-God existed and see what happens.
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
|
Posted
I though lawyers were supposed to use 200 words where one would do?
Yeah, that's a single sentence that sums up what my long-winded post was trying to say.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Josephine, referring to another another poster's "ignorance and prejudice" is acceptable only in Hell - not in Purgatory.
You're right. I should have been careful to describe the argument and not the one making the argument. My apologies.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hard to pray that prayer when you're close to concluding that the darkness may be all there is, and the Light you thought you have seen an illusion.
But may not the 'darkness' be an illusion as well?
The darkness is an illusion. A good friend of mine put it this way. "For almost 10 months I never saw a sunrise or a sunset. Of course they were happening, but I never saw them." She was talking about the effects of severe depression, not loss of, or lack of, faith. It coloured (perhaps uncoloured would be more accurate) her perception. The depression was certainly very real.
The language of the third collect in Evensong (lighten our darkness) simply draws parallels between the coming natural darkness (and its perceived perils) and any present darkness (psychological, spiritual, whatever) within us and its perceived perils. The darkness which creates irrational fears, distorts perspective, may indeed be a normal part of life experiences, and indeed can be learned from. But it is surely not a bad thing to want be free of that distortion so that we can see clearly again? In the praying, it is put into its proportionate place - something which we are enduring, not enjoying.
I know what you are saying; you misunderstood what I was saying.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
As a dedicated fence sitter, the many apologetics I have read for both atheism and christianity have always sent me running rapidly in the opposite direction. When one doesn't have a definite leaning for or against, they simply appear as completely circular arguments, preaching to the choir, only convincing if you already are inclined to believe one way or the other.
Of course you're right: there is no knock-down, killer argument for or against theistic belief. So of course no apologetic argument is going to `convert' a person of strong views, one way or the other.
But I think what one can do, and should do, is to oppose bad arguments that form an obstacle to belief (or non-belief, if that's the way you're arguing). I don't really know why, but it bothers me when people believe or disbelieve on the basis of stupid and unworthy arguments.
Many of the reasons I hear people give for why they are not believers seem to be absolutely absurd. As Laura said, the view that to be a believer is to reject science is such an absurd reason. There are plenty of others. Of course there are absurd reasons for belief as well as non-belief ( any argument based on anything the Bible says, for example ), and I oppose those too.
You can only convert people (one way or the other) by walking the walk. But, at the same time, I think we have a duty to help people make an informed choice of belief.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
|
Posted
Duo Seraphim
I apologise for my behaviour and the breach.
I will endeavour to maintain all the commandments in future; behave with appropriate decorum; and grant to both the Hosts and Admins,and my fellow shipmates, the respect they deserve.
S-E
--------------------
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
One piece of advice a friend gave another friend is this. If you think there might be a God, what is the nature of this maybe-God? Try living as you would if this maybe-God existed and see what happens.
I think this really hits the nail on the head.
The impulse to faith itself, as jlg says, might be a sort of hard-wired thing. Although I've had one of those conversion experiences, it really didn't take me very far - just over the top of the next hill to Christianity instead of a diffuse sort of A.A. "Higher Power" thing. Both are good approaches, for me; I do tend to believe that sobriety depends on the maintenance of my "spiritual condition," just as the founders of A.A. found for themselves and wrote about.
Of course, we now suspect that this has a lot to do with neurotransmitters and serotonin-uptake, etc. - but A.A. was founded in 1935, long before the drugs came along. Anyway, if faith in a Higher Power, and the way of life that the A.A. program offers, can accomplish the same thing - almost - as SSRI's (and addicts are and were a really hard case, BTW), there's something to be said for it, don't you think? I actually think we're only seeing the tip of the possible iceberg here; after all, yoga is an outgrowth of religion, right? So is meditation. Perhaps some of the disciplines within Christian mysticism will eventually develop along these lines, too.
Anyway, what's interesting about Christianity - and about A.A., and I'm sure about other faiths, too, I don't know - is what happens after that "conversion" experience. And Laura's pointing to a really fascinating part of the experience in the intellectual realm: what, actually, does it mean to posit a God? What sorts of questions does this address, and what sorts of problems present themselves?
And then you're off and running in a hundred different directions - as, indeed, the Western world did go running for a couple thousand years: religion inspired two millennia of art, literature, music, philosophy, ritual, and all the other stuff we've talked about here. Same thing happened within the cultures of the other faiths. Sometimes I wonder if the muse is dead now, or just sleeping.
Anyway, the tentacles of faith reach into all areas of human life; again, that's because it was all things to all people in earlier times. Science has done great things and its power is such that it's trampling wildly over everything else - but ultimately I just don't think it's going to fulfill all human needs, sorry. So faith ain't going anyplace.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
That's very interesting, I'd forgotten that A.A. essentially requires that you "posit" a God of some sort, and that is a key piece of its effectiveness (and also why some people object to it, even though it is plainly not requiring you accept a Judeo-Christian God)
And then that reminded me of the story of Bill W's conversion, which is a classic of the 'revivalist' genre.
He was at rock, rock bottom and still digging, and then:
quote:
All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that a wind not of air but spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, 'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are right. Things are all right with God and His world.'"
There are a lot of ways of explaining this sort of thing, both physical and psychological. But there is no denying the power of the conversion experience. And what it did for Bill W, to take one example, who went out and developed a system of dealing with addiction that was the last hope for a lot of desperate people, and has undoubtedly saved many lives.
[ 02. July 2007, 13:52: Message edited by: Laura ]
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
That's very interesting, I'd forgotten that A.A. essentially requires that you "posit" a God of some sort, and that is a key piece of its effectiveness (and also why some people object to it, even though it is plainly not requiring you accept a Judeo-Christian God)
Bill Wilson was a nut after that for awhile, because he thought that everybody had to have that sort of experience in order to recover. As bad as any nutcase preacher anybody's ever heard, he went around dragging alcoholics off the streets and trying to sober them up at home. His poor wife had to put out the (literal) fires a lot of the time, and one guy chased Bill around his own house with a hatchet.
Finally they settled on the "Power greater than myself" thing - it didn't have to be the white light, or as you say, the Judeo-Christian God. For me at first, it was simply the "force that through the green fuse drives the flower" - the power of nature.
A.A. is a simple thing - a sort of non-denominational Enlightenment path or something - and it actually has a lot going for it. You meet people who are adepts - that is, who've lived in the process for a lot longer - and they teach you this simple idea about living in the moment, and how to do that, and etc. Frankly, given the weirdness of the Church, sometimes I wish I'd simply have stayed with that path - but after awhile, you start to seek more anyway. A.A. is really meant for, and focussed on, the newcomer - which is how it should be - and people who've been around for awhile tend to turn to other places for deeper experiences.
Maybe after Christianity stops being part of the State and Culture for a few hundred years, it will develop in a different way. Monastics already live that kind of life, actually; that's probably why I like Anglicanism, too, since it has essentially, with the Daily Office, brought daily monastic practice into the Christian faith. That's where I think the whole thing is going, in fact.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
TM:
There are many saints who "walked the enlightenment path" - found the church too complicated and retreated. It might be spiritually productive for you or anyone who is drawn to that path to read about the lives of assorted contemplatives and what they have made of Christianity. My sense is that there's a really broad scope within the Church corporate for choosing which practices appeal to a given believer. Which is one of its strengths. There are many gifts, but one Spirit - we can't all be tat queens. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 02. July 2007, 14:36: Message edited by: Laura ]
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
TM:
There are many saints who "walked the enlightenment path" - found the church too complicated and retreated. It might be spiritually productive for you or anyone who is drawn to that path to read about the lives of assorted contemplatives and what they have made of Christianity. My sense is that there's a really broad scope within the Church corporate for choosing which practices appeal to a given believer. Which is one of its strengths. There are many gifts, but one Spirit - we can't all be tat queens.
Well actually, monastics are tat queens, too. That's the beauty part!
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Bill Wilson was a nut after that for awhile, because he thought that everybody had to have that sort of experience in order to recover. As bad as any nutcase preacher anybody's ever heard, he went around dragging alcoholics off the streets and trying to sober them up at home. His poor wife had to put out the (literal) fires a lot of the time, and one guy chased Bill around his own house with a hatchet.
Finally they settled on the "Power greater than myself" thing - it didn't have to be the white light, or as you say, the Judeo-Christian God. For me at first, it was simply the "force that through the green fuse drives the flower" - the power of nature.
Yes, I remember that, too. Though I do think crazy visionaries should get a pass for their occasional bouts of insanity. I also remember reading somewhere that apparently, on his death bed, Bill W decided he wanted a drink and it was extremely difficult to keep him from it. That really drove home to me the power of alcoholic addiction. Even after all those years. Wow. Of course, if I was dying, I'd want a drink, too, so who can blame him?
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Yes, I remember that, too. Though I do think crazy visionaries should get a pass for their occasional bouts of insanity. I also remember reading somewhere that apparently, on his death bed, Bill W decided he wanted a drink and it was extremely difficult to keep him from it. That really drove home to me the power of alcoholic addiction. Even after all those years. Wow. Of course, if I was dying, I'd want a drink, too, so who can blame him?
I have a crazy theory that there really is a "tribe" of people who are extra-ordinarily attuned to the spiritual life - i.e., the "priest" class. And it wouldn't suprise me in the least if they make up about 1/12th of the population, either!
So the religious nuts can do the exploring and messing around with theology and faith practice, and report back to the rest of us what they find. And yes, Bill Wilson was definitely one of those.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
I'm still trying to picture monastics -- a monk, a cloistered nun, an anchoress! -- as a "tat queen".
Maybe my imagination ain't good enough.
Or I don't know enough Tat Queens.
[ 02. July 2007, 23:37: Message edited by: Janine ]
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
|
Posted
I got almost congratulated the other day for having held on. I realised that it really shouldn't suprise anyone that I haven't let go. if I let go I would lose everything. I can't work anymore, and I have no children. Everything I do revolves around either my husband or the church. Letting go would throw such a huge wedge between me and my husband, and I would lose everything else. So I can't let go, even though I don't know anything I thought I knew about God. I just can't let go.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Izzybee
Shipmate
# 10931
|
Posted
Jenn R, that really sucks.
As far as fingernails go, I'm pretty much deciding to let go.
I have no problem with God, but I can't take the majority of Christians anymore. I can't self identify as something that I find really downright nasty about 80% of the time - Christianity and quite a few of it's adherants. The Ship is one of the only things that keeps me trying, really - there are some great people here that remind me that all of Christendom are not assholes.
So maybe thats the next question - what do you do once you've finally let go?
--------------------
Hate filled bitch musings...
Posts: 1336 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Stay on the ship and challenge us with your developing ideas?
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Because when I did despair, and I did let go of that last grasp with my fingernail, God was there. God was there in the kindness of my neighbors, of the birds at the feeder and the blooming of spring. God was there in the money that always appeared right when I needed it. God was there in the person who just felt they should call right at the moment I was ready to give it all up.
And when I attended a Meeting. Then two. And walked away feeling like I had received a message. a kindness. a loving "hug" through the silence.
I sort of relate to that, except it's the other way around. I let go of God and religion and found beauty in nature, hope in the kindness of strangers, love in my family, peace in the silence. Those worthwhile things, and so many more, are there, are real, are what makes each new day worth living. Once I let go, I realized that all of the good in the world didn't go away.
I let go. And all the good didn't go away. A lot of the crap did though
So, now, what? I am at the place where I know God is with me. I know he's for me and not against me. I don't feel the same way at all about the church. I hope to find a church community again that feels like home. I would like to walk out this walk in community. But I also know He remains with me even when that community isn't there.
--------------------
"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
