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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: When you're hanging on by your fingernails....
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
Great thread, Adeodatus. Here are a few of my random reasons:
I have occasional "What if I'm just making it all up?" moments, but I do remember the one time when I yelled at God "You know, I really don't think you're there any more" and really meant it, and as soon as I'd said it I *just knew* I was wrong. Not in a way that I can explain to someone, or even to myself, in any remotely satisfactory way, but it's just something that is now so central to who I am that even with all the crap I can't let go even if I wanted to.
Something which strathclydezero said on these boards a few years back really resonated with me, about "God as a construct". I think I said then, and I'll certainly say now, I think God is much more than just a construct (like, I think he's real too!), but I do think it makes a lot of sense that my idea of God is, amongst other things, a lens through which I try to make sense of the world and what I see happening. When I take God out of the picture and try to look at the world, it's very like when I take my contact lenses out and try to make sense of my surroundings - I just can't see clearly any more, and don't feel safe.
Another thing is that a lot of things about Christianity I actually think are really cool. Like, for example, the fact that Jesus commends the widow's mite because even though it's pretty much worthless monetarily it represents a huge sacrifice - I like the fact that values are turned upside down; I often read about those kinds of things and think "I wish I'd thought of that". Grace is something I want to believe in, because as a concept I find it revolutionary and inspirational and totally liberating.
Plus, lots of people I love and respect and don't think are bonkers believe it, and I really struggle to think that *all* of them are deluded (Yes, I *know* that's pretty close to 20,000 lemmings can't be wrong, but it works for me).
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
So, in the end, I try not to cling. If staying with Him depended on my own personal strength and the skill with which I can grunt and sweat and work up a good steaming "head" of faith... well, it wouldn't happen.
And if it doesn't...be assured that there are those prepared to catch you if you fall...
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
when the whole of Christianity, from start to finish, seems just one long line of platitudinous crap, what's the one thing that stops you walking away from it all?
J.S. Bach. Olivier Messiaen. Herbert Howells (even though, or maybe partly because, he apparently thought so too and still hung on by his fingernails).
Excellent reasons. Particularly the first, for me.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
So, in the end, I try not to cling. If staying with Him depended on my own personal strength and the skill with which I can grunt and sweat and work up a good steaming "head" of faith... well, it wouldn't happen.
And if it doesn't...be assured that there are those prepared to catch you if you fall...
S-E
Not to derail this thread, but I don't think there is any "assurance" of this at all. Are you the person who's going to catch Janine if she falls? And can we have that in writing?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
{cue the trademark crooked grin)
I know Who is there. And He's got a catcher's mitt the size of the Universe.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 206:
quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
Nothing at all.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
But still you post here. Some latent evangelical motivation?
I am a bit of an athevangelist, yes. But I try not to be an annoying one. Plus, it's healthy to talk to people with differing opinions.
Posts: 357 | From: Northeastern U.S. | Registered: Aug 2006
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
I am a bit of an athevangelist, yes. But I try not to be an annoying one. Plus, it's healthy to talk to people with differing opinions.
You mean there are annoying atheists? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
BTW, I should have put one of those winkie emoticons on my previous post as you're one of the all too few atheists who don't come across like they've got all this figured out.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
In spite of everything, in spite of right wing Christians often embarrassing me with their views on eschatology, in spite of Christian moralizing and hypocrisy, I still cling on to Jesus Christ.
I don't always feel the presence of God strongly, but I always know that He is there. He was in my past, molding me and guiding me alone. He is in my present, conversing and walking with me. And He is in my future, beckoning me to come to him.
And that is what keeps me whole.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Merchant Trader
Shipmate
# 9007
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mechtilde:
Back to the OP: I know I'm capable of letting go, so I pray like hell that Jesus will not let go of me. He's got a pretty firm grip so far, and I trust it because I have no choice.
That resonates with me: there have been times when my faith is so challenged I dont't get much further than the Lord's prayer. But then I often find that sufficient, especially if I think carfeully about every phrase.
God's grace allows us to go forward; I only read the Church Times when I feel like thinking about the challenge we have going forward. We have to go forward with a vision not dwell too much on the mistakes the church has made and makes except to learn from them.
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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds
Posts: 1328 | Registered: Jan 2005
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EJ.
Shipmate
# 9063
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Posted
quote:
what's the one thing that stops you letting go?
It seems to me I let go sometimes several times a day, and God just keeps holding on to me. There's no other way for me to explain why I still, despite everything, believe in God.
I have plenty of personal reasons not to believe in God, and yet I find myself believing nevertheless.
In my good moments, it seems belief is a gift that has been given to me. In my bad moments, I toss that gift away, only to find it in my life yet again - and it seems it never went away.
Posts: 137 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Okay, for all of you (and there have been many) who say that when you let go, Jesus and/or God caught you, what does that mean? What do you mean by "let go" and what do you mean by "caught" or "didn't let go of me"?
When I say "let go" I mean abandoning all pretense of believing something that I don't believe, and ceasing all effort to convince myself that I really do believe it after all. That's clearly not what the rest of you mean.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Sometimes all I have left, in low times, is "Lord, I do believe, help my unbelief".
I think maybe what you're saying and what some of us others have said isn't that far apart.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Socratic Enigma:
quote:
As Morbius says:
"Welcome: to the real world."
That's Morpheus. Morbius was the renegade Timelord in the eponymous 'Brain of Morbius'.
Really, whatever do they teach them in these schools!
My twopennorth:
Bach's St John's Passion, Dante's Divine Comedy, Caravaggio's Deposition.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Perhaps Christ screaming on the cross
"My God, my God why has thou forsaken me"
Once during a sermon a preacher shouted this in Aramaic (or at least that is what he claimed he did) and what I heard was a vocalisation of a silent scream that always seems to be at the root of existence.
This does not make reasonable sense, but then when I try to explicate my faith honestly I am met all the time by the contrariness of what it is. Faith statements for me is an attempt to make coherent sense of life, not something I will (descriptive rather than constructive).
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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WatersOfBabylon
Shipmate
# 11893
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Sometimes all I have left, in low times, is "Lord, I do believe, help my unbelief".
Yes.
I think I can relate more with that man than just about anyone else in the Bible.
Posts: 515 | From: I'm a nomad. | Registered: Oct 2006
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Mechtilde
Shipmate
# 12563
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Posted
Scot, I guess by "not letting go" I mean "continuing to do the work necessary to keep the relationship going." That could be not giving in to temptation or just continuing the maintenance work that keeps my soul alive: prayer, liturgy, sacraments, community, etc. You're right, that's not what you seem to mean by "not letting go," which is more about hanging onto ideas you no longer believe.
I confess I don't really struggle with that much, because for whatever reason, faith (as "belief") comes pretty easily to me. Once I accept my own existence and consciousness, which strike me as unlikely in the extreme, the Trinity, virgin births, walking on water and all the rest seems like small potatoes. Sorry, I'm sure this can't be very helpful to you. But I do see the distinction you're making.
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"Once one has seen God, what is the remedy?"
Sylvia Plath, "Mystic"
Posts: 517 | From: The cloud of unknowing | Registered: Apr 2007
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... to the whole religion thing (assuming you ever are in such a position), what's the one thing that stops you letting go?
Or, to put it another way - on those days* when the whole of Christianity, from start to finish, seems just one long line of platitudinous crap, what's the one thing that stops you walking away from it all?
(* For me, at the moment, any day when I've read the Church Times.)
I don't really know what stops me from walking away. Personally I find myself plagued by doubt and there are some days when I think its far too much hassle, not worth the effort and wish I could be an atheist and just say "fuck it".
I did like your mention of the Church Times though - I find myself in exactly the same situation which concerns me slightly, perhaps I'm more attracted to the Church of England's ethos than its God.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
When I say "let go" I mean abandoning all pretense of believing something that I don't believe, and ceasing all effort to convince myself that I really do believe it after all. That's clearly not what the rest of you mean.
I think you've got me there.
That is what I mean, only it's really not. (follow me, here) because when things have gotten crummy (and oh boy have they this year) I have had that screaming, raging thing, "if there was a God, he would not let this shit happen! Fuck it!"
But then, as soon as I came down from my tantrum, there were quiet voices, like bird song and kind strangers, that to me were God in action. Because I guess on a basic, deep level, I believe in God. I believe. I know. the same way I know my face in the mirror.
That's that whole faith thing, I guess. So even though I "let go" I didn't really, because I can't.
I have lots of reasons why I know God, none of which need to be gone into here. Some are scientific, some are beyond explanation.
But because of all those things, when I see the baby nuthatches trying out their wings, I see God. And when I hear a fresh new baby cry, I hear God. and when I touch a loved one, I touch God.
The rest is just human trappings.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
It's in the moments that I let all the theological crap go that I tend to feel closest to God.
It's not a matter of thinking, it's a matter of Being.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
It's not a matter of thinking, it's a matter of Being.
Whar on earth does that mean? We all 'Are' after all.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
When I say "let go" I mean abandoning all pretense of believing something that I don't believe, and ceasing all effort to convince myself that I really do believe it after all. That's clearly not what the rest of you mean.
To me, the letting go meant that I let go of all effort to force myself to believe but neither could I actively disbelieve. I felt myself falling deeper into a pit of self-absorbed despair as I fought to find proof of God and meaning in life the deeper the pit became and the footholds became more and more treacherous. At the point where I let go of trying to force myself to think God into existence, He reached out with a tangible and very real reassurance of his presence and of the right response to Him.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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EJ.
Shipmate
# 9063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Okay, for all of you (and there have been many) who say that when you let go, Jesus and/or God caught you, what does that mean? What do you mean by "let go" and what do you mean by "caught" or "didn't let go of me"?
When I say "let go" I mean abandoning all pretense of believing something that I don't believe, and ceasing all effort to convince myself that I really do believe it after all. That's clearly not what the rest of you mean.
When I say I let go, I say "f*ck you, and especially emphatically this little sh*t-hole of a church of yours" to God and go my merry way. God doesn't seem to mind, actually. And then I find Him in some completely odd place, in an odd way. That's the way it seems to work. I don't want to convince myself that I believe: if I believe, I believe, and if I don't, I don't. I just end up believing for some reason I can't really fathom myself. It's all very emotional and passionate, to tell the truth.
Posts: 137 | Registered: Feb 2005
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
People. Not God, consciously. Not Jesus, consciously. People. Some specific people. Others rather more vague. And here's the interesting bit. My best friend is a bigoted asshole when it comes to religion. But then, one of his family is an utterly objectionable Christian.
When the friend gets steamed up, I relax. Put his own arguments to him sometimes. At other times, talk about my own idiosyncratic take.
I am never offended. The argument rarely gets heated. When it does, we have unspoken ways of cooling off. My guess is that he will always be an atheist. My goal is that he should become a happier one.
And that's how he helps me. He takes my own worst doubts and makes them look ridiculous. I try to find in him some hope in his world that I can show to be plausible.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
When I say "let go" I mean abandoning all pretense of believing something that I don't believe, and ceasing all effort to convince myself that I really do believe it after all. That's clearly not what the rest of you mean.
I have completely walked away a couple of times, and argued against the whole shebang, rationalised the Bible, faith as a human construct, the lot. Once as a teenager because I objected to the way I was forced to go to Church (no food if I didn't go, so I didn't eat) and I stayed away for 10-15 years, but I got pulled back to faith, and then to church, and am more involved than anyone else in my family now (but I have not made my daughter go to church).
Second time after a relationship with someone deep into the church went wrong and I lost my faith and roots and ended up in a very deep dark place, but I am back again.
I would rationalise this as a striving for good and God being the good in all - the David Jenkins quote "God is; He is as he is in Jesus, so there is Hope."
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Late Paul: quote:
Originally Posted by mirrizin:
It's not a matter of thinking, it's a matter of Being.
What on earth does that mean? We all 'Are' after all.
For me, I don't think faith is an intellectual construct. It's not a matter of mouthing a certain creed with conviction. It's not about understanding the trinity, or having the whole bloody bible memorized, or knowing exactly why you're going to heaven. Heck, I'm not even sure it's "knowing" that you're going to heaven. It's not a matter of intellectual debate (though I do enjoy the theology game), it's not a matter of "believing" in a particular set of scriptures, and it's not about being able to walk up to someone and tell them beyond a reasonable doubt why God exists.
Sometimes religion is kind of a mystical gut-level kind of thing for me. Partly because of the observation I picked up in Aikido that thinking is sometimes an obstacle to living, and partly because if my beliefs rested solely on my logical ability to "prove" God, I'd probably become an atheist. Faith doesn't mean I know what God is to the last detail, it means that I trust the universe to take care of itself, and that on some insignificantly puny level, I'm part of it.
"Be still and know that I am God"
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
Interesting that for some it's usually God, and for others it's usually people, (oh yes and even nature). I know the two are not mutually exclusive but I don't fully understand why our answers are so different. I'm more in the 'usually God' camp, but then it is sometimes difficult to quantify the value of relationships that could easily be taken for granted. Then again, there are aspects of my 'religion' which can become too ritualistic and not really connected with what gave me hope in the first place.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
quote:
Originally Posted by Late Paul: quote:
Originally Posted by mirrizin:
It's not a matter of thinking, it's a matter of Being.
What on earth does that mean? We all 'Are' after all.
For me, I don't think faith is an intellectual construct. It's not a matter of mouthing a certain creed with conviction. It's not about understanding the trinity, or having the whole bloody bible memorized, or knowing exactly why you're going to heaven. Heck, I'm not even sure it's "knowing" that you're going to heaven. It's not a matter of intellectual debate (though I do enjoy the theology game), it's not a matter of "believing" in a particular set of scriptures, and it's not about being able to walk up to someone and tell them beyond a reasonable doubt why God exists.
You seem to be answering a question that I'm not asking. I didn't say "give me an intellectual construct". I said "What does 'it's a matter of Being' mean?" Because I don't know. Not in a way that makes it relevant to this thread. Not in a way that makes it the reason why you feel close to God.
I exist. So I'm 'being'. That simple fact doesn't make me close to God so you must mean something more.
quote:
Sometimes religion is kind of a mystical gut-level kind of thing for me. Partly because of the observation I picked up in Aikido that thinking is sometimes an obstacle to living, and partly because if my beliefs rested solely on my logical ability to "prove" God, I'd probably become an atheist. Faith doesn't mean I know what God is to the last detail, it means that I trust the universe to take care of itself, and that on some insignificantly puny level, I'm part of it.
But atheists can recognise that the universe would go on without them - which is what I take "can take care of itself" to mean - and recognise themselves as part of it.
Is this gut feeling something you just either have or you don't?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Late Paul:
I exist. So I'm 'being'. That simple fact doesn't make me close to God so you must mean something more.
Actually, the way I see it, that does mean you're close to God. If God is (and I'll admit that this is an article of faith), then you can't not be close to God. Feeling is just a matter of whether you like God at that particular moment, or whether you're in line with God's will, which I think some like to call the Holy Spirit.
And yeah, I'm kind of a Zen Christian. I'm fully convinced there are some things that you just can't put into words, at least not without using words that are so loaded with historical meaning and interpretation as to render the conversation unnecessarily confusing, especially over a medium like the internet. Big questions require big answers. quote:
Is this gut feeling something you just either have or you don't?
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that one, as the only resource I have to engage with the universe is my own body, mind, and spirit. If I were a Calvinist, I suppose I'd have to give an unequivocal "yes," but I'm not quite sold on Calvinism yet.
I also don't think that Christians have a monopoly on God or whatever you prefer to call it. Perhaps it's just a question of interpretation and semantics. I'm starting to think that one could very easily slaughter any belief system with semantics, which is one reason I'm wary of logical constructs.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
quote:
Originally Posted by Late Paul:
I exist. So I'm 'being'. That simple fact doesn't make me close to God so you must mean something more.
Actually, the way I see it, that does mean you're close to God. If God is (and I'll admit that this is an article of faith), then you can't not be close to God. Feeling is just a matter of whether you like God at that particular moment, or whether you're in line with God's will, which I think some like to call the Holy Spirit.
Fair point. I should've said "doesn't make me feel close to God". You started your original post by saying dumping theological crap made you feel close to God and went on to say that it was a matter of Being. I assumed they were connected.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
They're sort of connected. Sometimes I think the biggest fuss I have with religion is when I think too hard. It's like Aikido...trying too hard sometimes makes things more difficult than they need to be. Sometimes you just have to stop, breath, look at where you are, and move in the most opportune fashion, rather than continually attempting to do the impossible.
And Gwai wants to add that sometimes you have to simply continue to do the impossible.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
Something else which I find helps me, which I forgot to mention before, is thinking of faith in terms of allegiance rather than just belief.
As in, I've made a commitment and it is right for me to stick to it even when I don't believe. If I didn't have this understanding, then at the times when I don't believe I would walk away, thinking that it was intellectually dishonest to carry on.
It's a bit like what the characters in The Silver Chair say about Aslan when the witch is making them question whether he really exists: I want to be on Aslan's side even if there isn't an Aslan to lead it. So at the times when I'm not sure whether God is there, I still feel that I want to be on the side that he would be on if he were there.
Posts: 554 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Oct 2003
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
At times like those mentioned i tend to remember that i don't have a massive argument with God.
Never have.
The platitudinous c**p tends to come out of peoples mouths and there's no sin in ignoring people who raise my blood-pressure.
Added to which walking out of church was not, last time I looked, the unforgivable sin.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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infinite_monkey
Shipmate
# 11333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Talitha:
It's a bit like what the characters in The Silver Chair say about Aslan when the witch is making them question whether he really exists: I want to be on Aslan's side even if there isn't an Aslan to lead it. So at the times when I'm not sure whether God is there, I still feel that I want to be on the side that he would be on if he were there.
I like this--thank you.
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His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.
--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com
Posts: 1423 | From: left coast united states | Registered: Apr 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
When I say "let go" I mean abandoning all pretense of believing something that I don't believe, and ceasing all effort to convince myself that I really do believe it after all.
I did this -- for about a decade I was one of those godless secular humanists Limbaugh & Co. are forever ranting about. The beginning of the end of that came when someone said to me, "You have a religion, and you worship in the library," and I knew he was right.
Why do I hang on now? Transformative experience of God. Because I think it's true. Jesus. Especially the incarnation.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Scot said: quote:
...When I say "let go" I mean abandoning all pretense of believing something that I don't believe, and ceasing all effort to convince myself that I really do believe it after all. That's clearly not what the rest of you mean.
Well, if you did let go, within the context you're defining here, what would that look like?
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Nothing much would change, except for some labels and and options that I retain mainly for the comfort of my family. I think I'm talking about something I've already 99.8% done.
Maybe cutting that last 0.02% thread would free me up to turn around and take a completely objective look at the church and God. The trouble is, I think I'd really dislike what I'd see, and that would make it really hard to be open-minded and generous with my many true-believing Christian friends and family. So, I hang on by a fingernail, not for my own sake, but for the sake of my relationships.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Jodi
Shipmate
# 2490
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Posted
This thread is very interesting to me because I've been going through a major period of doubt and fear, and I suppose I've just started clawing my way back up after only barely hanging on by my fingernails for some time.
quote:
Originally posted by Mechtilde:
Once I accept my own existence and consciousness, which strike me as unlikely in the extreme, the Trinity, virgin births, walking on water and all the rest seems like small potatoes.
Heh, well there's one of my problems. When I try to make sense of it all, I just end up doubting my own existence and that of the universe and then recoiling in bafflement to curl up under my duvet and cry.
The thing that has really helped me back into faith to the point where I'm calling myself a Christian again, when for a few years if you'd asked me my religion I really wouldn't have known what to say, is the practical effect in my day-to-day life, especially the way I relate to people. For one thing, one of my biggest flaws is a major tendency to look down on people, for all sorts of reasons. To look at someone I'm having trouble dealing with and say to myself, "but God loves them, too," gives me a whole different perspective on things.
I'm overwhelmed by a fear of death and cannot comprehend either ceasing to exist or going on for ever, and to be honest they both seem equally scary to me because I do not deal well with not being able to understand things. So all I have to cling on to is how my faith works in my life now, and more and more I'm learning once again that I'm better off with it than without it.
I'm also someone who probably only considers myself a Christian because that's the cultural context I'm in and what I've been brought up with, though. I have a very hard time relating to Jesus as such, it's more a general sense of connecting with a God who can guide me in what's right.
One other thing, in the more emotional and spiritual realm, is that often when I encounter creative works that have a big impact on me - a great variety of stuff here, from Jane Eyre to 80s synthpop - I have a moment when I find it impossible to believe that it can come from anything other than an echo of God's urge to create. And then I feel silly and try not to think about it and drive myself nuts with some intellectual argument instead. *sigh*
Posts: 73 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Maybe cutting that last 0.02% thread would free me up to turn around and take a completely objective look at the church and God. The trouble is, I think I'd really dislike what I'd see, and that would make it really hard to be open-minded and generous with my many true-believing Christian friends and family.
I'm another who'd answer the question "what's the one thing that stops you walking away from it all?" with "I've tried and I can't because that all-loving G-d/ sadistic sky-monster won't let me." I probably don't understand where you're coming from at all - I don't know what it's like to want to believe, because I never have. But I spent a long time in disbelief, and then on the fringes of disbelief, until I finally got pushed close enough to make the leap of faith. And even then, I basically said "OK, fine, you exist. But you're a straight-up *&%@&*, and I don't like you, so please *&%* off now. Oh, and I'm currently believing in the whole people-created-in-your-image thing, since so many people who believe in you are also complete *&%@&* " (I never said I was a role-model, especially when it comes to religious faith).
But I suspect you're underestimating your ability to be generous with your true-believing friends and family. Or maybe the "true-believers" are G-d's way of not letting you walk away.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Maybe cutting that last 0.02% thread would free me up to turn around and take a completely objective look at the church and God. The trouble is, I think I'd really dislike what I'd see, and that would make it really hard to be open-minded and generous with my many true-believing Christian friends and family.
It may also have the opposite effect.
I went through the whole process of letting go/living without any belief/gradually returning and found it all totally cathartic, leaving me with a much more realistic, less crucial view of God and other believers. My theology is a bit wacky these days and I'm not yet a regular church goer (and may never be) but I don't care - and that's a relief in itself!
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Powerful thread. I've let go once in my 30 plus year journey and it was a good thing to do. In the wandering period after (about 18 months or so) I became gradually aware that the God I had given up on was definitely not there -He was an idolatrous creation made partly out of my own head and partly out of the more morbid bits of the culture Christianity in my local church. I talked this stuff over with a wise vicar who observed that God (the One who is there) was into the breaking of idols. So I asked the obvious question; how can you tell what is idol and what is God? He laughed; "Come back and tell me the answers you've discovered to that question, and we'll compare notes!". I found that "Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief" is a pretty serious prayer.
A comment on an earlier point. I'm sure it wasn't meant this way, but not all platitudes are crap, and conversely, quite a lot a non-platitudinous talk claiming originality really is crap. Neither age or novelty, familiarity or originality, are in themselves any reliable guide to truth.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Maybe cutting that last 0.02% thread would free me up to turn around and take a completely objective look at the church and God. The trouble is, I think I'd really dislike what I'd see, and that would make it really hard to be open-minded and generous with my many true-believing Christian friends and family.
You don't know until you try ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Personally, I can't see much point in forcing yourself to believe something that you are 99.98% certain is not true. Sounds like a waste of effort to me.
But I can understand the family thing. Bummer.
So far as belief is concerned, it seems to me to be a matter of deciding where to plant your flag. You aren't going to have certainty, not in this life anyhow. And eventually, I think, everyone reaches a point where that flag has to be planted somewhere.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I shall forever look at your avatar, Scot, and see that middle fingernail ever hanging on to the unseen 'Other' at the top.
Those of us who go letterboxing know well the sig. of one of the longest-serving participants: 'Where the hand of man hath never trod'. That makes me think about the vast stretches of otherness which makes up the whole of existence, of which our corner is only a small part, and the vast majority of which we will never be able to visit or experience.
I'm not explaining myself very well, but am constantly made aware that my knowledge and experience of reality is only a fraction of the sum total, so plenty of room for God as well.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm sorry to say I COULD let go of the church and all the attendant paraphernalia. But that isn't what Christianity's about for me--it's (I suppose) a necessary and sometimes unpleasant consequence.
Yes, it's Jesus again. (and I used to be an ordinary decent heathen, so I remember what it was like without him. Don't want to go there again.)
Doesn't mean I don't complain, grouch and bitch like mad at Him (poor Lord) when I'm in the mood.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
A thought that struck me too late for the edit window was that I shouldn't have posted this in Purgatory, since I'm feeling quite exceptionally fragile at the moment. But actually it seems to be turning out rather well.
I have to say, though, that so far none of this excellent discussion has made me go, "Ha! Of course, that's it!"
For instance, I've never got the whole Jesus thing. How one can get emotionally attached to somebody who isn't there has always been a mystery to me. (Although, on reflection, I guess that's probably not what at least some of you have been saying.)
Alogon and TubaMirum: dammit, you nearly got me with Bach! If anyone ever took dictation from the Holy Spirit, it was JSB. They spoke the same language. But, on the other hand, would it not be glorious and wonderful to ascribe what he did to human genius?
Posted by WatersOfBabylon: quote:
For me, it's routine.
Now we're talking! In my worst times, I've suspected all that holds me is that I make my living through my affiliation to the Church. One day, there might be the real possibility that I might not need the Church to make a living - that'll be an interesting day, if it comes - I'll finally know the answer to that question.
Posted by Socratic-enigma: quote:
What is preventing you - fear? Simple anxiety; or merely habit?
Good question. Very good question....
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Not to derail this thread, but I don't think there is any "assurance" of this at all. Are you the person who's going to catch Janine if she falls? And can we have that in writing?
I should not be so presumptuous: I merely sought to elucidate that one does not fall into an abyss - but simply a different awareness...and community.
However, I will undertake that should your grasp ever falter - I shall be there to catch you - even if you squash me in the process; Which I should hurriedly add is in no way meant to suggest...I mean the fall from such a height...and even your remarkably light frame will gain a certain momentum... (do yu reckon I've dug the hole deep enough yet?).
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
(cue the trademark crooked grin)
I know Who is there. And He's got a catcher's mitt the size of the Universe.
Hang on! I was always taught that God is an Englishman - In which case he would use his more than adequate 'open hand' - a' la cricket: Not like those wussy Americans who can't catch - or are they scared of hurting their poor little hands
S-E
(He who doesn't lie - OK, maybe the occasional little white...)
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Alogon and TubaMirum: dammit, you nearly got me with Bach! If anyone ever took dictation from the Holy Spirit, it was JSB. They spoke the same language. But, on the other hand, would it not be glorious and wonderful to ascribe what he did to human genius?
Even JSB wouldn't do that. Maybe especially JSB, matter of fact.
One thing that always strikes me is that so many great composers were deeply religious themselves. The ones Alogon mentions, and many others besides. This is true right into the present day; Tavener is a good example - and I heard a great piece by James MacMillan, a contemporary Scottish composer who is a devout Roman Catholic. I wasn't surprised to hear it at all.
There are others who weren't religious, too, of course - at least not in any conventional way. And no one would deny that it's human genius, too - but in the case of JSB it seems to me obviously to be an attempt to speak with and about God. Anyone can hear it in the music.
Hey - maybe this is a sort of Chalcedonian genius, in fact? 100% human and 100% divine?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Not to derail this thread, but I don't think there is any "assurance" of this at all. Are you the person who's going to catch Janine if she falls? And can we have that in writing?
I should not be so presumptuous: I merely sought to elucidate that one does not fall into an abyss - but simply a different awareness...and community.
However, I will undertake that should your grasp ever falter - I shall be there to catch you - even if you squash me in the process; Which I should hurriedly add is in no way meant to suggest...I mean the fall from such a height...and even your remarkably light frame will gain a certain momentum... (do yu reckon I've dug the hole deep enough yet?).
I doubt very strongly you will be there; that's the whole point. I don't know you and you don't know me - and I'm sure you've got a busy life and many other important things to do. In any case, there are, by simple observation, plenty of people who "fall through the cracks"; a friend of mine has a brother who just jumped off a building because he felt so alone.
What "community" are you speaking of, BTW? And where was the "community" for the man I mention above?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
The Curse of the cross-post
Ahh Adeodatus, your openness and honesty humbles me - and makes my levity seem totally out of place.
I am glad that you have gained sustenance from the thread. Bach indeed! One is not denied an appreciation of beauty simply by virtue of one's lack of belief. And even if one considers the artist's motivation somewhat 'misguided'.
But then of course...
I could be wrong.
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
...and I'm sure you've got a busy life and many other important things to do.
True enough. But there is nothing more important than to be there for a friend.
The 'community' is ill-defined, nebulous and lacks direction - but it is there. It is represented by a growing sense of our 'common humanity', especially among the young: I am in awe of my niece's internationalism. During the last Commonwealth Games I shared a wonderful train journey with some Kenyans who were here to support their team. There is a possibility of something there - but it requires nourishing.
I am saddened by the fate of your friend's brother. There is nothing further I can say - anything is inadequate.
Only can I restate that I see that possibility; a seed which I hope will come to flourish.
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
...and I'm sure you've got a busy life and many other important things to do.
True enough. But there is nothing more important than to be there for a friend.
The 'community' is ill-defined, nebulous and lacks direction - but it is there. It is represented by a growing sense of our 'common humanity', especially among the young: I am in awe of my niece's internationalism. During the last Commonwealth Games I shared a wonderful train journey with some Kenyans who were here to support their team. There is a possibility of something there - but it requires nourishing.
I am saddened by the fate of your friend's brother. There is nothing further I can say - anything is inadequate.
Only can I restate that I see that possibility; a seed which I hope will come to flourish.
S-E
But you're not a friend. As I said, I don't know you and you don't know me. And I doubt very, very strongly you will "be there for me" in the dark and terrible times. Why and how would you be? How could this possibility ever come to pass?
When you give "assurances" of things that are evidently not true and in all likelihood won't ever be true, it really doesn't help your case.
But as I said, this is not really relevant here, and I don't want to derail a thread whose topic is religious belief and how to hold onto it.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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