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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: NewFrontiers after Terry Virgo
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This is a tangent from the most recent "revival" thread, which touched on the fact that the founder and leader of NewFrontiers, Terry Virgo, stepped down as its leader this week, effectively retiring.
More specifically, in this post on that thread, David Mathias says:
quote:
I actually think what Terry Virgo has done is a very brave decision. To not just appoint an "heir" but to say to people who already have churches relating to them to keep building and see what happens.
As he said at the conference last year: Newfrontiers as a name and as a group may have to die in order for people to go and do the stuff more effectively. The vision is too big for one guy at the top to hold it.
I think this development challenges the ethos of NewFrontiers to the core.
On the surface, NF churches look a lot like other con-evo charismatic gatherings. On the other thread, Gamaliel said quote:
New Wine style charismatic Anglicanism isn't a million miles from the Vineyard, NFI nor charismatic Baptists. In fact, in some places if you were led blind-folded into a service and had the blind-fold removed, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference
However, if you scratch beneath the surface a little NF had, at the end of the day, an authoritarian structure in which the buck stopped with Terry.
As just one of many examples of this, within the last year leaders have been expelled from the movement for "not representing Terry" in their sphere of ministry.
This was part and parcel of the thinking that NewFrontiers existed as an expression and extension of Terry's personal apostolic gifting.
I realise that at a congregational level this does not necessarily appear self-evident, but I know from experience* that it was the case, and I believe this was true up until this development.
What rationale does NF have for its existence in the absence of an apostolic leader? And if an apostolic leader is not an imperative, what does that say about what was taught and practised in the movement beforehand?
(*note/disclaimer: those following my own journey with respect to NF can check where things stand today here)
[ 02. December 2011, 09:23: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
I will be especially interested to see how this impacts some of the smaller churches that have actually been planted by NF (as opposed to those that were converted into NF). The local NF church relies quite heavily on the authority of their local bishop... er, 'apostle' to maintain the authority of the pastors. The authority of the 'apostle' obviously comes from the authority of Terry Virgo.
My guess is that it will be a non-issue, lately the apostolic delegate is more frequently referenced than Virgo is, and I'm guessing that they could get away with not even mentioning that Virgo had stepped down if they wanted. Most of these local believers don't understand the whole chain of command really, and Terry is just a faceless name to them as he's never visited them.
I remember the first time visiting that particular church, one of the local believers asked if I had read a certain book by Virgo, in my ignorance I asked who he was. The response was, "Are you even a Christian?" ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I'm pretty sure they could maintain authority within the church without any trouble, but it will be interesting to see if a shake up in the circle of apostolic delegates makes them change the name on the building. This particular branch is very dogmatic about doctrine and such, I could easily see a change in allegiance on the part of their apostolic delegate leading them away from NF proper as well.
We'll see how it goes...
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I wonder what will happen to the unwritten rule that NF churches contribute 10% of their giving to central funding?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
A good question... also who will control that central pot of money?
Probably the churches who do contribute will be painted as blessed in some way ("they aren't growing, they aren't healthy or wealthy, they have lots of strife and division, but because they have given us money God has given them lots of prophetic words...")
Forgive my cynicism.
I think the more important question will be what will the reaction of the more well-meaning church leaders who now have to look at the theology of apostolic authority in light of Terry's absence?
I can certainly see that teaching being swept under the rug by much of the inner-circle types (NF has a propensity for pretending certain things never happened), but some of the more honest leaders will probably have a slight crisis of conscience concerning their own authority in their own church.
The way the local NF church tends to interpret scripture is completely out in left field, the only way they have of claiming any validity of docrine is because their apostle agrees with them and Terry with him. In the past, as Eutychus said, the buck stopped with Terry: now there's room for dispute amongst the leadership. How will individual churches be able to dogmatically cling to wacky doctrine if it's not completely agreed upon by the upper ranks?
I wonder if the generals are already planning ways to carve up the empire, or will they eventually have to appoint a new Caesar?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
As already stated earlier in the Revival thread, my personal view is that Terry's position is après moi, le déluge. A collapse of NF would highlight the uniqueness of his apostolic ministry. In this perspective, nobody can fill his shoes.
I think the abrupt move from such a tightly-controlled structure to an (apparently) completely loose-knit one represents a failure of leadership. A few years ago Mark Driscoll (not beloved at all by me) highlighted the lack of a clear succession policy as a weakness of NF.
For years the talk was of training the next, "Joshua" generation and over the years I think a succession of individuals in NF appeared to all intents and purposes to be an heir apparent to Terry. The current situation looks more like the book of Judges and I won't be at all surprised to see some rather nasty jostling for top positions and "market share" of the empire.
[ 16. July 2011, 13:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
The current goings on in the SGM movement - while not being a parallel with the NFI situation - provides some indication of how things should go. Similarly what happened to the Icthus movement a while back.
That said, I don't see why things should necessarily be that acrimonious - or at least why the acrimony would be widespread. I can see regional networks of churches - some of which go in separate directions.
As I said in the other thread, when you get down to it for most people in the pew things aren't *that* different between Vineyard/NFI/New Wine Anglicans etc, and I don't see why this would necessarily change.
I can see a few smaller groupings being fairly strict and close knit but that's not unusual and a lot of the Pentecostal/Charismatic denominations end up spinning off this sort of group/church. These usually decline in number after a decade or so, unless revitalised by numbers from ethnic minorities, in which case they are rarely the same church/group.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The current goings on in the SGM movement - while not being a parallel with the NFI situation - provides some indication of how things should go.
While there are similarities, there are big differences too. A major one is that I don't think SGM or CJ Mahaney ever made any claims to apostolic anointing in the way Terry Virgo and NewFrontiers did, so there's much less inconsistency in partial groups going their separate ways.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
While there are similarities, there are big differences too. A major one is that I don't think SGM or CJ Mahaney ever made any claims to apostolic anointing in the way Terry Virgo and NewFrontiers did, so there's much less inconsistency in partial groups going their separate ways.
Sure, but the question is how many people on the ground actually believe it sufficiently to get dreadfully impolite with each other ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As just one of many examples of this, within the last year leaders have been expelled from the movement for "not representing Terry" in their sphere of ministry.
This was part and parcel of the thinking that NewFrontiers existed as an expression and extension of Terry's personal apostolic gifting.
Am I the only one that this bothers? I thought the purpose of any church or denomination was as an extension of Christ, not becoming the personal fiefdom (for that's what it really is) of one individual? Perhaps I'm overreacting as I was once part of a small national missions group where the founder got a tad drunk on his own power and disloyalty to him was viewed as a sin. There were many people hurt before the ministry collapsed. Very sad as they'd had almost 2 decades of solid ministry before that. I left long before the collapse and I made sure any ministry I was a part of after that had some form of group accountability rather than single person leader lorded over all.
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Wm. Shakespeare
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
Only one of several reasons that New Frontiers has been labeled abusive and controlling...
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Daron
Shipmate
# 16507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
restorationist influence waned (with the exception of NFI)
Looks like NFI is waning too. Terry Virgo is stepping down at this week's Together On A Mission conference and there is a clear declaration that there is no appointed heir, rather a loosely-knit group. Not quite sure where this leaves apostolic anointing and all that talk of training up one's Joshua, but still...
Oh, they're there. I think that Terry Virgo has been identifying apostolic figures within Newfrontiers and endorsing and promoting their elevation to trans-local ministry for some time now. They've very open about it.
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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Am I the only one that this bothers?
Let me try and give my take on it.
When I joined NF, there was the idea of recognising Terry's anointing. This amounted to a belief (which I shared) that he had divinely-inspired insights, gifts and abilities which meant he could be trusted with leading a movement.
At the same time, the movement felt (and indeed was advertised as being) very non-hierarchical and informal. Apostolic input was portrayed as consultative, not authoritarian. I suppose it didn't bother me at the time because to my shame, I really didn't pick up at first on the authoritarian and exclusivist aspects of the movement.
When discussions about regional leadership emerged, the question was whether a given individual (aka "apostolic delegate") "had a mandate" from Terry. This mandate involved faithfully representing Terry's vision and promoting it as opposed to other opposing or competing streams.
During my time in NF, more than one person left NF because in one way or another, they were not felt to be performing this representative function. Either they were more into representing somebody else (a very recent example springs to mind), wanted to be recognised in their own right, or crossed Terry in some way.
Over time, it also became apparent to me that beneath the non-hierarchical veneer, there was in fact a very vertical authority structure. The apostolic team (as there was in my day) appointed apostolic delegates, who appointed elders.
In many places (especially in adopted churches) this was mixed in with a fair degree of common sense and consensus-seeking at the local church level, but when push came to shove rank could be pulled, and was.
I can well believe that even some leaders within NF are not really aware of this authority structure, but it certainly existed and is completely called into question by this development.
[ 16. July 2011, 14:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not close enough to it all these days to form any firm opinions. I've got friends who've been at the recent conference and may get feedback from them in due course.
My gut-feel would be that what was NFI will continue to develop but in a more fragmented and less 'branded' way. The franchise will disintegrate into smaller franchises around particular individuals who're probably already jockeying for position behind the scenes.
I suspect though, that there's an impetus and momentum within the churches affiliated to NFI that will continue for a good while yet - they've got some very able and capable people, whatever reservations one may entertain about their modus-operandi and, to be fair to them, they've not shot off into hyper-charismatic/hyper-calvinist hyper-space for the most part ... but only around the edges from what I can gather.
On the whole, I've found that NFI leaders do maintain better relationships with other groups/denominations than some of the other R1 type restorationists ever did. And this may lead to collaboration in the future. I wouldn't be surprised to find some of them working more closely with Vineyard, Baptist and CofE charismatics, for instance.
I'd even be prepared to bet (if I were a betting man) that some sections will become more open to women's ministry and begin to liberalise a bit.
I'm not sure what any of this 'says' about the kind of issues Eutychus raised in his OP. To me, these are non-issue. It's a bit like the old Covenant Ministries emphasis on 'lateral covenant' for instance - the idea that we were all in covenanted relationships etc. As soon as Covenant Ministries divided into smaller outfits the whole covenant relationship thing became a non-issue.
Similarly, I suspect that Terry Virgo's personal influence and apostleship will become a non-issue as new leaders take the helm/s ... it'll go in various directions. They'll all acknowledge a debt to him but his strengths, weaknesses and personal characteristics won't form the biggest element of their spiritual DNA. To all intents and purposes they'll become just another independent charismatic grouping or groupings - but perhaps with particular distinctives in terms of ecclesiology.
That's what happened to the churches that were part of Covenant Ministries. They've all morphed into something else, but are still recognisable to a certain extent because they're all operating within the same broad paradigm.
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Eutychus, with the greatest respect, I can't really understand why Terry standing down calls anything into question.
If a head-teacher retires, it doesn't invalidate everything they did while they were in post.
Surely NFI would maintain that Terry Virgo's personal 'anointing' or authority only held good whilst he was actually exercising it. Once he steps down or retires then it's no longer an issue. The same as if he'd been run over by a bus 10 or 15 years ago, say.
You wrote:
'I can well believe that even some leaders within NF are not really aware of this authority structure, but it certainly existed and is completely called into question by this development.'
I'm sure you're right, that not all the leaders were aware of the authority structure ... but I don't see how Terry's standing down calls the former authority structure into question. In what way does it do that?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not sure I'm getting this across and perhaps it's not easy to articulate.
Less than a year ago, there was quite a major departure from NF of a UK leader and his church, which has also created division within churches this leader oversaw in another country.
The reason for this parting of the ways was, essentially, that by promoting another 'stream', this leader was no longer representing Terry Virgo (not NewFrontiers, Terry Virgo).
The 'stream' in question is not rejected out of hand by people within NF and indeed as I understand it, it was emphasised at the time within NF that this split did not reflect any rejection of this stream.
ISTM that in the new scheme of things the rationale for this split simply doesn't exist. Now, "every man does what is right in his own eyes".
[ 16. July 2011, 14:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If a head-teacher retires, it doesn't invalidate everything they did while they were in post.
Just thought of another, true illustration.
In my city there is a high school with a famous name. I recently learned that the name formerly belonged to a previous high school, but when the headmaster moved from this high school to the new one, he said "the name comes with me".
Whatever the cognitive dissonance may say, I think that is precisely Terry's perspective. He sees NewFrontiers as an expression of his personal ministry. I once heard him say that if he'd been in the US, he would have called NewFrontiers "Terry Virgo Ministries". In his mind, he wasn't just fulfilling a position in some autonomous organisation.
[ 16. July 2011, 14:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Daron
Shipmate
# 16507
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Posted
Structured authority isn't an intrinsically bad thing. I'd actually suggest that unstructured unaccountability (whether official or unofficial) is a more dangerous way to order a church, or family of churches than a clear order of hierarchy.
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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It depends how it's applied, Daron. My experience of the restorationist streams is that it's all too often applied very tightly indeed.
Ok - Eutychus. I think I get it. You're saying that with Terry now standing down the whole basis for a particular leader and the churches under his influence leaving because they did not 'represent' Terry sufficiently is shown to have been something of a nonsense if, 12 months later, Terry stands down himself.
Well, to some extent I'd hazard a guess that the whole thing wasn't particularly well thought through in the first place. Things just sort of 'evolve' in those settings and before you know it you've got a whole set of systems and criteria that you've only to get to jettison further down the line.
You have to have a short memory to be a restorationist. One minute it's one thing that's the be-all-and-end-all and within a few months the emphasis has changed and it's something else ... with no attempt to review, assess or learn from what went before. The whole premise is one of reinventing the wheel over-and-over again. To some extent it's Protestantism gone mad, semper reformanda every two seconds. One 'next big thing' after another.
Consequently, it'll be easy for Terry Virgo and the rest of the NFI guys to rationalise what's happened. That was then, this is now. That particular group split off, fairly amicably, a 12 month since because they weren't 'representing' Terry Virgo sufficiently. Now, Terry himself retires so the whole basis of them leaving in the first place becomes bankrupt. So what? Things have moved on. That's the way of it ...
I'm not saying it's right, just saying what it's like. God must have changed his mind so many times while I was in my restorationist phase that I'm surprised he didn't become dizzy ...
I'm trying to say that reverently ... but you know what I mean.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
He sees NewFrontiers as an expression of his personal ministry. I once heard him say that if he'd been in the US, he would have called NewFrontiers "Terry Virgo Ministries". In his mind, he wasn't just fulfilling a position in some autonomous organisation.
Yikes. I wonder if quoting 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 would be too simplistic...
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You have to have a short memory to be a restorationist.
That's almost worthy of a sig line. Perhaps it was when my memory started to exceed the prescribed duration that things started to go wrong. You're probably right that many will just think they are "moving into a new phase" and that's it. But it still doesn't make any sense!
South Coast Kevin, I know, I know, I know, and looking back I wonder how I dealt with that passage.
I think the answer is to do with the fact that the exclusivist nature of it all was cloaked beneath a semblance of openness. You didn't realise how exclusivist it was until you found yourself somehow on the wrong side of the line.
(Oh btw I'm informed that SGM did have the apostolic side of things too so I stand corrected on that. But things aren't going too well over there right now. There is much talk in the blogosphere and it includes threats of legal action).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
Structured authority isn't an intrinsically bad thing. I'd actually suggest that unstructured unaccountability (whether official or unofficial) is a more dangerous way to order a church, or family of churches than a clear order of hierarchy.
The point is that you often end up with the worst of both systems (I'm sure restorationist churches are not alone here) heavily structured authority with no means of appeal, coupled with an insistence that everything is unstructured and 'led by the Spirit'.
quote:
You have to have a short memory to be a restorationist. One minute it's one thing that's the be-all-and-end-all and within a few months the emphasis has changed and it's something else ... with no attempt to review, assess or learn from what went before. The whole premise is one of reinventing the wheel over-and-over again. To some extent it's Protestantism gone mad, semper reformanda every two seconds. One 'next big thing' after another.
Plus the average congregation member is fairly ready to give people the benefit of the doubt - it's people over principles taken to its extreme. Though I do wonder if it is because they aren't particularly taken with anything to start with. So the average congregant who is just bumbling along, it doesn't make much difference.
[ 16. July 2011, 17:44: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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Daron
Shipmate
# 16507
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Posted
From what I can make out on Adrian Warnock's Blog the handover involves the concept of moving from one global apostolic sphere under Terry Virgo to a undisclosed number of independent apostolic spheres.
In a nutshell, Newfrontiers is adopting kind of diocesan structure, under a group of independent trans-local apostles (i.e. bishops) who work with their own particular sphere (i.e. dioceses).
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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
South Coast Kevin, I know, I know, I know, and looking back I wonder how I dealt with that passage.
I've just re-read my post and thought I should mention that it wasn't intended as an attack on you, Eutychus! Sorry if it came across that way. I was instead wondering what Terry Virgo would say regarding that passage from 1 Corinthians.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This sounds similar, Daron, to what happened with Covenant Ministries. In that case the individual 'dioceses' ended up going their own separate ways.
Might we expect a repeat performance?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
Agree with you SCK. If TV wanted his authority to outlast himself, wouldn't that make NF more like the Mormons than, say, the Catholics (who claim an apostolic link with St Peter but don't appeal to his authority on everything). I think there's a theory about organisations founded by pioneer types - the organisation needs to be more than the pioneer to work afterwards. I suppose the great commission is an example. If NF truly operates on the basis of apostolic authority, it needs a new apostle. A regional or diocesan committee isn't an apostle. I guess it'll fragment/evolve in the way of lots of denominations.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It could end up with lots of mini apostles, Tomsk, some rather like Terry, others rather different.
When I was involved with Covenant Ministries you sometimes had a bit of a hullabuloo when someone was recognised as an 'apostle' live on stage at one of the Bible Weeks. They always used to say that this was simply the recognition of an existing 'gift' rather than the conferrment of some kind of apostolic succession.
The whole thing is very problematic. Because what you end up with is a load of mini-Popes.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The whole thing is very problematic. Because what you end up with is a load of mini-Popes.
Which reminds me of the joke .. what is the difference between the average house church leader and the pope .. one is an autocratic figure who dictates all aspects of life to a cowed and awed group of followers and the other is the pope.
Joking apart, isn't the mini-apostle model more or less what remains from the rest of the restorationist movements? So you have a group of churches under Gerald Coates (not sure if he calls himself an apostle), another group under Keri Jones, etc.
Generally the form is a group of churches who aren't too geographically spread, under a central authority figure, united by rough consensus and personal relationships rather than subscription to any particularly belief.
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Daron
Shipmate
# 16507
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Posted
This is what's going on at SGM in the States: big 'apostolic' fish fighting over dominance in a relatively small pond. The difference between SGM and Newfrontiers though is the very strong focus on the doctrine of grace as opposed to SGMs preoccupation with sin. Newfrontiers do a fantastic job of looking after each other. There is a strong sense of fraternity and collegiality based on grace based (post-millenialist?) optimism.
This could all turn sour of course, but I wouldn't mind betting that Virgo's done his homework won't try to create apostolic teams based on personal affinity. Instead, he'll try to create friendly competion between the spheres which is measured according to church growth based on his Vision and Values for Newfrontiers.
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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The difference between SGM and Newfrontiers though is the very strong focus on the doctrine of grace as opposed to SGMs preoccupation with sin. Newfrontiers do a fantastic job of looking after each other. There is a strong sense of fraternity and collegiality based on grace based (post-millenialist?) optimism.
I don't think there is that much difference, both go on about grace a lot - and the SGMs current problems aren't because they over-focused on sin.
The fraternity you mention is based largely on a sense of a shared mission, with a number of people I know feeling rather shocked to find that their friendships had a strong element of the utilitarian.
And they aren't all post millenialists either - though no idea why that should stop theological wonkiness as the theonomy crowd in the US prove. The 'cultural transformation' types seem to me to be most likely to come unstuck.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The fraternity you mention is based largely on a sense of a shared mission, with a number of people I know feeling rather shocked to find that their friendships had a strong element of the utilitarian.
You can certainly add me to that number as regards NF.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Eutychus
I'm not up to date on any of this. I know quite a number of local leaders in NF in Norfolk, remember hearing about the Driscoll kerfuffle. Isn't there some kind of legacy being left by some equivalent of "articles of association" i.e. you can continue to use the NF banner and be associated with it if you agree to live within the boundaries outlined by such articles? I think the notion must be that the regional "bishops" will keep an eye on that i.e there wont be a single person with the "last word" any more. From that POV, it will no longer be "Terry Virgo ministries".
If any of that is approximately right (it's a mixture of second hand info and guesswork), then my further guess is that NF will gradually become more diverse through time, but there won't be much by way of dramatic change. The top down ethos, the characteristic flavour of NF churches and the discipleship courses will probably see to that. "Moment of inertia of a fly-wheel" etc.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
This is what's going on at SGM in the States: big 'apostolic' fish fighting over dominance in a relatively small pond.
That's not what it looks like it is to me, after reading all of the "leaked" documents. I don't see any fish fighting there, but people trying to confront the leadership for what they see as being spiritual abuse.
quote:
The difference between SGM and Newfrontiers though is the very strong focus on the doctrine of grace as opposed to SGMs preoccupation with sin. Newfrontiers do a fantastic job of looking after each other. There is a strong sense of fraternity and collegiality based on grace based (post-millenialist?) optimism.
I would say the difference between CJ and Terry is that CJ is known for often saying that he's a miserable sinner, wheareas Terry seems pretty much to believe that he is free from sin.
The "strong sense of fraternity and collegiality" is there in both movements, and in both movements until you find yourself on the wrong side of it. The techniques used to "reposition" people who have fallen from favour appear pretty much identical in SGM and NF.
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Eutychus
I'm not up to date on any of this. I know quite a number of local leaders in NF in Norfolk, remember hearing about the Driscoll kerfuffle. Isn't there some kind of legacy being left by some equivalent of "articles of association" i.e. you can continue to use the NF banner and be associated with it if you agree to live within the boundaries outlined by such articles?
I think you mean their "seventeen principles" or whatever they are.
You may be right, but I think what I'm having a hard time getting across here to those who haven't had contact with the senior leadership of NF up close is the degree to which all important matters really went back to Terry - and nobody else.
As was famously said to me shortly before my demise by one of Terry's regular consultants, "when Terry says jump, the only answer is 'how high?'".
If we pursue your scenario of churches staying in NF by agreeing to live within the 'articles' or 'seventeen principles', the question now is: what happens when you don't. In the old days, it would have been Terry who decided whether you were in or out.
There was no sort of due process, no clear procedure for dealing with disputes (in my day, until I learned better, I thought this was wonderful because it was, so I thought, open, honest, man-to-man, non-hierarchical, 'new testament' and free from the shackles of denominationalism and religiosity).
If someone steps out of line now, or a conflict arises, if Terry really has relinquished control, I don't know how it gets resolved. It's the book of Judges, I tell you. And if it is, it's a complete indictment of Restorationist theology.
[ 17. July 2011, 06:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Yes, I get that. I suppose it depends on how "cloney" the regional "bishops" turn out to be in practice. And whether they work together to take each others' advice, compare notes. Even have the occasional word with the retired "eminence grise"?
These and other factors persuade me that the pace of change will be slow. A touchstone might be if there is any change or variation over the allowable role of women.
I haven't seen any "seventeen principles" document - mind you I haven't looked.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
How intriguing. The "seventeen values" have completely disappeared off Newfrontiers' homepage, though I managed to find a copy on this church's webpages.
Yet another example of the need in NF to have a short memory. They've gone "down the memory hole". I wonder why?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
PS Eutychus. The kind of consultations I'm talking about can give rise to the production and use of "due process"; it's a way of resolving internal differences.
Of course I agree with you that the absence of due process is wrong. Put not your trust in princes.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Crosspost! They are probably being re-drafted. Now that's a job I wouldn't mind doing for a consultancy fee. Give me that blue pencil!
"I've just made a few minor changes to modify the somewhat autocratic impression which I'm sure is entirely unintended .."
No? I don't think I'd get the job either.
[ 17. July 2011, 07:04: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If someone steps out of line now, or a conflict arises, if Terry really has relinquished control, I don't know how it gets resolved. It's the book of Judges, I tell you. And if it is, it's a complete indictment of Restorationist theology.
This is what I find confusing I'll be honest. A lot of NF churches think that the gift of apostle continues today and a church is not a proper church without one - which is has not been a mainstream Protestant position. Pastorally I have come up against this, as theologically we are a pretty similar church to NF but the local leadership of NF churches have warned people from coming to us - no apostle, so not a proper church.
Is that just being ditched in favour of "loose related associations with an apostle-type figure"? Makes all the insistence on apostolic ministry as a mark of the True Church seem rather empty to me.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If someone steps out of line now, or a conflict arises, if Terry really has relinquished control, I don't know how it gets resolved. It's the book of Judges, I tell you. And if it is, it's a complete indictment of Restorationist theology.
This is what really grabs my attention. Thus far, NF hasn't shown any interest in democracy or group-based decision making at any level (maybe in some churches, certainly not in the local branch). The above mentioned blog by Adrian W. seems to indicate that there will be no need for a group decision making process because all the apostles will "die to self" and continue on as a humble, benevolent leaders. That's all good and well, and I'm sure some have had enough purple cool-aid to believe it; but human nature being what it is... sooner or later someone is bound to depart from generally accepted NF principles. Who gets to let them know that they're no longer part of the club?
I think that all of the theological issues will just be swept under the rug. They'll continue to ignore comments from outsiders, so what they said in the past will be meaningless; I think they'll adapt their theology to fit the current system and then say that they believed such-and-such a way all along.
Let's be honest, most of the rank and file in NF aren't big theology buffs anyways. The leaders of the local branch have no formal theological education, they keep people in line by feeding them lots of 'prophecy' and good-sounding Bible verse fragments...
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Goodness, I'm actually agreeing with Leprechaun!
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The kind of consultations I'm talking about can give rise to the production and use of "due process"; it's a way of resolving internal differences.
I suppose they could but my point is that this is completely and utterly alien to the way business has been done in NF so far.
The very public unravellings in SGM show many many parallels with my experience in NF. It's like they took the book on best corporate management and human resources practices - and did the exact opposite.
One could (and I suppose should) hope for godly leaders who will take the opportunity offered by this new state of affairs to build a better set of practices, but sadly I'm not sure many of the guys at the top today got there by being good at that sort of thing. A lot of the people I respected the most in NF during my time there seem to have got sidelined.
[ 17. July 2011, 07:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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David Matthias
Apprentice
# 14948
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Posted
Quite a lot to respond to here but I don't want to get into a bunfight.
Not least because I know of some of the circumstances, and respect Eutychus.
I think the 17 values stuff is being transferred over to Terry Virgo's new site
17 Values
The thing about newfrontiers is that it is much larger outside the UK than here now.
And many of those original folks have been concentrating overseas for a long time now, including Virgo, Holden, Devenish etc.
The very latest magazine (not on line yet, but distributed through Churches and at the conference last week) gives a much fuller picture of who the people are who are involved now, and where.
There are several in the UK but more overseas: Russia, Kenya, Ghana, South Africa, Sydney, Dubai all have local people.
The Brighton conference has died because there will be a new international conference somewhere overseas which gathers people.
Then in the UK it is not entirely defined but there are named people who Churches relate to.
These are the kind of "Joshuas" I assume have been referred to in the past.
You're right it might all fragment in the future. I think the overarching desire is to not let the structure hold back what people are doing on a local level.
You can't just keep on growing forever without changing things. People don't get younger. What worked for 200 churches in 3 continents won't work for 800 churches across 6 continents.
Posts: 29 | From: Shrewsbury | Registered: Jul 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Eutychus
I think Leprechaun and I have always agreed that nonconformism and congregationalism go well together.
Given the general stroppiness of nonconformists, we find it hard enough to agree together in a single (and relatively small) local congregation, never mind transfer our argumentativeness to a wider structure. We do more good and less damage if we don't give ourselves airs, recognise honestly that our problems of internal unity are a part of who we are and where we came from.
I tend to think of NF as a strongly conformist development within the nonconformist tradition. But then, I would ..
[ 17. July 2011, 16:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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David Matthias
Apprentice
# 14948
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Posted
An example of what I was saying in the UK is Jeremy Simpkins who oversees the Churches across the North of England and Scotland. He is based in Manchester. Before that he planted a Church in Teeside.
In August they will gather well over 2000 people from about 50 Churches to their Summer camp, hosted by Jeremy Simpkins.
North 2011
Terry Virgo is a speaker by invitation, but next year it could be someone else. It is Jeremy's "sphere" of influence now.
and in different parts of the UK these groupings follow similar lines even though they look a bit different but then the team leaders get together centrally several times a year.
That central meeting will be how "newfrontiers" continues to relate. But a Church plant in Deeside (North Wales) won't need to be signed off by any newfrontiers HQ beyond Jeremy. It has not been like that for nearly a decade.
TV has been concentrating on the international work for some time now, including some fairly epic (months not weeks) overseas trips etc.
It is a fascinating time really: basically moving from being Terry Virgo's "apostolic sphere" to being an affiliation of other people's: both within the UK, and across the world.
Posts: 29 | From: Shrewsbury | Registered: Jul 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Matthias:
I think the 17 values stuff is being transferred over to Terry Virgo's new site
17 Values
I'm really confused now. Terry Virgo has stepped down but NewFrontiers' 'seventeen values' are now on terryvirgo.org ? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[x-post with David's latest]
[ 17. July 2011, 11:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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David Matthias
Apprentice
# 14948
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Posted
quote:
The reason for this parting of the ways was, essentially, that by promoting another 'stream', this leader was no longer representing Terry Virgo (not NewFrontiers, Terry Virgo).
I think that risks being a touch of creative translation.
Dave Holden oversaw the man in question, the country in question and the situation in question.
And the agreed (by both parties) statement relating to it did not read like that at all.
Posts: 29 | From: Shrewsbury | Registered: Jul 2009
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David Matthias
Apprentice
# 14948
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm really confused now. Terry Virgo has stepped down but NewFrontiers' 'seventeen values' are now on terryvirgo.org ?
[x-post with David's latest] [/QB]
TV has not disappeared into thin air.
It is not some legal transaction which is signed then everything has changed.
This whole thing is a process.
And (especially internationally) TV will still have a big role in gathering and encouraging people with apostolic responsibility.
He is also the guy who gets many of the invitations: hence having resources on his website is very useful.
Posts: 29 | From: Shrewsbury | Registered: Jul 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, let's hope it works out ...
From where I'm sitting the way these kind of outfits operate doesn't look that dissimilar to what happens in Deaneries etc within the historic Churches ... and the 'apostles' are simply 'bishops' with a fancy title but without the funny hats.
But you wouldn't catch me in an outfit like NFI now, for love nor money. Bless 'em.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
From where I'm sitting the way these kind of outfits operate doesn't look that dissimilar to what happens in Deaneries etc within the historic Churches ... and the 'apostles' are simply 'bishops' with a fancy title but without the funny hats.
Well, I did wonder why every 'sphere of influence' happens to be more or less geographic, when in fact it's all 'relationally based'.
It seems to be bishops minus the checks and balances you get in an episcopal system, not that those stop ever bad thing happen, but they are useful nonetheless.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by David Matthias:
I think the 17 values stuff is being transferred over to Terry Virgo's new site
17 Values
I'm really confused now. Terry Virgo has stepped down but NewFrontiers' 'seventeen values' are now on terryvirgo.org ?
[x-post with David's latest]
Sounds like Terry Virgo is no longer satisfied with a general ministry getting credit for the teachings. He wants the credit. Ego in ministry is not a good thing. We'll see how this works out.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
My business partner's been to the Brighton Conference this weekend; I'll ask him tomorrow what he thinks the future holds for NFI.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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