|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: New Frontiers new apostolic spheres
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
But this is precisely what NF fails to do. They confuse their local expression of the church with the Church Triumphant and massively over-emphasise the "divine" nature of the Church, this completely failing to see the aspects still prone to human nature.
To my mind, this failing goes a long way to explaining the absence of checks and balances.
Matters' aren't helped by their functional perfectionism, ie the conviction that any remaining sin in the life of the believer is confined solely to their flesh, understanding this as referring solely to their "mortal body". This puts things such as spiritual pride and spiritual abuse right off the radar.
Well, I'd rather say that the last matter directly leads to the first couple of things. A view of functional perfectionism directly leads to an ecclesiology where the apostles word always goes (or as you quoted someone saying "When Terry says jump, you are supposed to ask 'How high?'").
The problem is that the one reformed doctrine they don't take on board is that of simul justus et peccator. Partly this is due to their roots, and part of this is due to the way in which they integrate aspects of the charismatic movement into their denomination. As a result - Gamaliel's favourite phrase 'over-egging' is never far away.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The problem is that the one reformed doctrine they don't take on board is that of simul justus et peccator.
Yes indeed, and to echo the "what made you change your mind" thread, this has become one of my most treasured ones following my departure - with thanks in part to a very supportive local Eglise Réformée pastor at that time but also our very own LutheranChik and Lamb Chopped.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
fails to recognise that churches are BOTH divine and human institutions at one and the same time
Matters' aren't helped by their functional perfectionism, ie the conviction that any remaining sin in the life of the believer is confined solely to their flesh, understanding this as referring solely to their "mortal body". This puts things such as spiritual pride and spiritual abuse right off the radar.
Ah, the heresy John was contending with. I had no idea they were into gnosticism! I guess it explains a lot of odd behavior I saw. It wasn't just the abuse that I noticed in NFI, it was some strange and inexplicable things they said from time to time, some theological points-of-view that had never occurred to me and that I thought would never occur to anyone sane. Never put it all together, though, had no idea I was amongst gnostics.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Ah, the heresy John was contending with. I had no idea they were into gnosticism!
It's very subtle. Here's the short thread we had some years ago on this topic as it relates to Terry Virgo's teaching, originally in Kerygmania and now in Oblivion.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The problem is that the one reformed doctrine they don't take on board is that of simul justus et peccator. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Pack 'em all off to learn some Latin.......
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Ah, the heresy John was contending with. I had no idea they were into gnosticism!
It's very subtle. Here's the short thread we had some years ago on this topic as it relates to Terry Virgo's teaching, originally in Kerygmania and now in Oblivion.
In my experiences with NFI, 18 months as a regular attender, 6 as an elder, it was clear they were open to the charismatic gifts. I also have some experience with charismatic churches, and know a minority are full blown gnostics. I know little about Virgo's background and have no idea how he became a charismatic, but wonder if the gnosticism results from his adaptation of some teaching he got in such circles.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
...I know little about Virgo's background and have no idea how he became a charismatic, but wonder if the gnosticism results from his adaptation of some teaching he got in such circles.
I'd never imagined charismatics to be associated with gnosticism, but now you come to mention it... I'll make no hasty judgements, but it's worth a thought.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The problem is that the one reformed doctrine they don't take on board is that of simul justus et peccator.
Pack 'em all off to learn some Latin....... [/QB][/QUOTE]
Well, they like to bring up their seminary credentials quite often - so maybe they should just use them.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
...I know little about Virgo's background and have no idea how he became a charismatic, but wonder if the gnosticism results from his adaptation of some teaching he got in such circles.
I'd never imagined charismatics to be associated with gnosticism, but now you come to mention it... I'll make no hasty judgements, but it's worth a thought.
You might want to make that some charismatics have adapted gnosticism into their theology. Happens more often in churches where the founder isn't accountable to anyone else and/or is free to incorporate any strains of theological thought they please.
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
You might want to make that some charismatics have adapted gnosticism into their theology. Happens more often in churches where the founder isn't accountable to anyone else and/or is free to incorporate any strains of theological thought they please.
OK, I'll buy that.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
What gnosticism actually "is" is a pretty closed book for most folks in the renewal movement.
This is quite a useful initial summary.
I think it's reasonable to say that the NF views on the flesh are gnostic-ish when it comes to their understanding of human nature. However, NF are decidedly "ungnonstic" when it comes to cosmology or deity.
This quote from the gnosis website makes that clear.
quote:
Human nature mirrors the duality found in the world: in part it was made by the false creator God and in part it consists of the light of the True God. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”.
In short, Terry Virgo and all of NF would certainly disavow the first sentence but, in accordance with that useful Oblivion thread, go some way down the line of the last two.
At least that seems a fair summary to me of Virgo's words quoted in the Oblivion thread.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
@Barnabas - not sure there's a problem with believing in a 'perishable physical and psychic compenent.' Isn't that just a complicated way of saying we're mortal? No one in NF would say we possess a 'divine spark'.
If someone wants to attribute 'gnostic' ideas to anyone in NF they really to quote a gnostic writer and say how that maps onto NF teaching.
I'm open to persuasion on this (it's been a long time since I studied Gnosticism) but given that gnosticism is a term that covers a wide and complex variety of thought the charge needs some more substance.
--------------------
'
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I'm not really sure I'd call it gnosticism, to be honest.
My lay understanding of gnosticism is that it includes the idea that matter is evil. I don't think that's present at all in NF.
The idea is not that the flesh is evil but that unlike the "new man", it is unredeemed. Consequently (and this is the important but perhaps unstated outworking in terms of thinking) sin can reside only in the flesh - with the (perhaps unintended) result that there are no sins of the intellect.
[ 03. July 2012, 20:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I'm not sure it is Gnostic either, but ... sorry Eutychus ... I do think that, like much of NFI teaching (and by extension, evangelical charismatic teaching in general) it is over-realised or over-egged.
In my experience, most charismatic evangelical outfits - be they Anglican, Baptist, Vineyard or 'restorationist' - are overly dualistic to a greater or lesser extent. And I'd suggest that there are elements that CAN incline towards the Gnostic ... but probably fall a tad short of it in most instances.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
They do tend to see sin as of the flesh only.
This when put with other potentially abusive structures and doctrines isn't good. As said before there is no way this can be debated within NF. When Terry gets it wrong, they all get it wrong.
How about the sins of the wider society, politics, the money system, and corporate church structures ? Didn't hear too many sermons on those subjects ! Have a lustful thought though, better get accountable to an elder who can keep you on the right path. Very inward looking, accountability only upwards, and not very balanced when you compare it with what Jesus tended to talk about.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Very inward looking, accountability only upwards, and not very balanced when you compare it with what Jesus tended to talk about.
Or practiced. The remarkable thing about NF is they assume a level of authority and power over followers that even the Lord God Himself in human form didn't exercise over the disciples!
And add that to their utter disregard in practice of Jesus' mandate in Matt 20: "You know how the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, hold them in subjection, tyrannize them. Not so with you! Whoever wants to be great among you must be a servant, whoever wants to be first must be a slave."
In my opinion, such organizations might just as well be spitting directly into the face of Jesus, couldn't be any worse than what they do to his word and his bride.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
CSL1 I couldn't agree more ! But if you point this out to them all you get is 'we shouldn't lord it over others but....' there is always more double speak to justify lording it over the flock.
Their theology series sums it up. If you disagree you can't email them because they are too busy to answer you ! Typical arrogance IMO. They never engaged in proper debate on theology in my time at NF. That's not healthy. Its mind control. As you pointed out Jesus often liked people to come to their own conclusions and wanted them to think. I never got the impression NF wanted anything other than unquestioning, unthinking obedience.
From an NFI publication Please note:
Because of the very busy schedules of the contributors to these theological papers it is not possible to enter into correspondence related to the themes covered".
[Fixed your code as I was passing. And all that followed quoting you! - T]
[ 05. July 2012, 16:00: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure it is Gnostic either, but ... sorry Eutychus ... I do think that, like much of NFI teaching (and by extension, evangelical charismatic teaching in general) it is over-realised or over-egged.
Yeah, it's not so much gnostic as over-realized, less not yet and more already.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
CSL1 I couldn't agree more ! But if you point this out to them all you get is 'we shouldn't lord it over others but....' there is always more double speak to justify lording it over the flock.
Their theology series sums it up. If you disagree you can't email them because they are too busy to answer you ! Typical arrogance IMO. They never engaged in proper debate on theology in my time at NF. That's not healthy. Its mind control. As you pointed out Jesus often liked people to come to their own conclusions and wanted them to think. I never got the impression NF wanted anything other than unquestioning, unthinking obedience.
From an NFI publication. Please note:
Because of the very busy schedules of the contributors to these theological papers it is not possible to enter into correspondence related to the themes covered".
Can't think they're busier than people like Greg Boyd who will enter into discussion. Shame they can't even engage with creative ideas like web chats or time limited forums on papers. This stuff is discussed among selected groups of leaders.
[ 05. July 2012, 15:58: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
--------------------
'
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
|
Posted
An interesting input to the discussion of the mind/body dichotomy comes from neuropsychology. To summarise rather simplistically, what we call the mind is generated by the biochemical functioning of neurological processing in the biological, physical entity we call the brain. The mind is therefore just as much a biological entity as any other part of the body. So if the ‘flesh’ refers to the physical body, then it must also refer to the mind as well, since it is just as much part of the physical body.
From this POV it is nonsense to suggest that one part of the physical body – the mind – is perfect, while the rest is imperfect and unredeemed. IMO the mind/body dualism isn’t validly derived from the Bible either, so it is a pleasure to see evidence from study of God’s works in creation confirming evidence from His word. (And this also endorses the resurrection of the body – we need a physical body in which to generate mental processing with which to develop the consciousness with which to be aware of our resurrected existence.)
The authoritarian imposition within NF of the dualistic doctrine referred to in posts above (as well as other doctrines) is one of the reasons that I could probably never be a member of an NF church.
[Favour to ask of Hosts: The excessive length of the URL in the link to the NF article in the posts immediately above forces the display of this page wider than my computer screen, requiring constant left and right scrolling to read every post. As this may affect many other shipmates as well, could it possibly be edited so that the URL itself is hidden in the code, and a shorter substitute displayed? Pretty please?]
[Edit for clarity]
[ 04. July 2012, 22:36: Message edited by: A.Pilgrim ]
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
From an NFI publication. [/URL]
Please note:
"Because of the very busy schedules of the contributors to these theological papers it is not possible to enter into correspondence related to the themes covered".
Actually, some of these links look quite interesting. I may read a few when I have time. We don't "do" theological debate at my church, but I imagine if the catechesis was a discussion group it would go round and round in circles with us not growing in Christ at all.
[ 05. July 2012, 15:58: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
[Favour to ask of Hosts: The excessive length of the URL in the link to the NF article in the posts immediately above forces the display of this page wider than my computer screen, requiring constant left and right scrolling to read every post. As this may affect many other shipmates as well, could it possibly be edited so that the URL itself is hidden in the code, and a shorter substitute displayed? Pretty please?]
Far be it from me to presume to take on a hostly role, but I recreated the link in my response above - try it and see if it's any better.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
...From an NFI publication. Please note:
Please note:
"Because of the very busy schedules of the contributors to these theological papers it is not possible to enter into correspondence related to the themes covered".
Actually, some of these links look quite interesting. I may read a few when I have time. We don't "do" theological debate at my church, but I imagine if the catechesis was a discussion group it would go round and round in circles with us not growing in Christ at all.
You might be surprised. I've found discussion and debate actually encourages growth in Christ. ETA: This is because I'm forced to know what I believe and why - and it's not based on what someone else knows.
[ 05. July 2012, 15:59: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
You might be surprised. I've found discussion and debate actually encourages growth in Christ. ETA: This is because I'm forced to know what I believe and why - and it's not based on what someone else knows.
Discussion yes. The problem in this case was that someone came along to catechesis with no intention of becoming Orthodox - he just wanted a debate about the merits of baptist theology verses the merits of Orthodoxy.
As we often say, there's a time and a place for everything and we can debate different theologies (politely) on SofF as much as we like.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
You might be surprised. I've found discussion and debate actually encourages growth in Christ. ETA: This is because I'm forced to know what I believe and why - and it's not based on what someone else knows.
Discussion yes. The problem in this case was that someone came along to catechesis with no intention of becoming Orthodox - he just wanted a debate about the merits of baptist theology verses the merits of Orthodoxy.
As we often say, there's a time and a place for everything and we can debate different theologies (politely) on SofF as much as we like.
I'd never dream of attending a catechesis class (or catechism as it's known in some circles) and trying to debate. That's for another time and place. I've got a varied background in differing churches due to my missions time but I've yet to find one I've agree with everything on - well, perhaps when I was a child - but there is a place for discussion and debate with everyone from priests/pastors to friends and strangers. We did have discussions in the catechism classes of my youth, but it was generally aimed at convincing everyone "we're right and everyone else is wrong" - which imho is also not the time or place for that.
[ 05. July 2012, 10:24: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
|
Posted
[Note of thanks to Tubbs for code-editing as requested - much appreciated. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ]
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
CSL1 I couldn't agree more ! But if you point this out to them all you get is 'we shouldn't lord it over others but....' there is always more double speak to justify lording it over the flock.
Their theology series sums it up. If you disagree you can't email them because they are too busy to answer you ! Typical arrogance IMO. They never engaged in proper debate on theology in my time at NF. That's not healthy. Its mind control. As you pointed out Jesus often liked people to come to their own conclusions and wanted them to think. I never got the impression NF wanted anything other than unquestioning, unthinking obedience.
From an NFI publication. Please note:
Because of the very busy schedules of the contributors to these theological papers it is not possible to enter into correspondence related to the themes covered".
Can't think they're busier than people like Greg Boyd who will enter into discussion. Shame they can't even engage with creative ideas like web chats or time limited forums on papers. This stuff is discussed among selected groups of leaders.
I lived in St. Paul when Boyd was a prof at Bethel Sem, prolific author and scholar, plus the preaching pastor of a mega church. Throughout that time, he was legendary around campus for his open door policy, according to every student I knew who'd had contact with him, he was always available and would hear you out. Rather the polar opposite of these cultish cliques.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
From an NFI publication. [/URL]
Please note:
"Because of the very busy schedules of the contributors to these theological papers it is not possible to enter into correspondence related to the themes covered".
Actually, some of these links look quite interesting. I may read a few when I have time. We don't "do" theological debate at my church, but I imagine if the catechesis was a discussion group it would go round and round in circles with us not growing in Christ at all.
Do let us know if you find anything that might be of particular interest to discuss here.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
As yet I have not heard back from New Frontiers on how much Terry Virgo is paid. (Nor Mark Driscoll from contacting Mars Hill either).
So I'm supposed to turn up at their churches, empty ten percent of my wages into their coffers and not have a clue how much goes into their wages, because they are so anointed that to even dare to ask the question is a sign of rebelliousness?
I can think of no other walk of life where this level of trust is demanded. Personally I think Christians should stop being naive. Transparent accounts or no donations. I do not believe God told them to make their salary top secret.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
|
Posted
quote:
The problem in this case was that someone came along to catechesis with no intention of becoming Orthodox - he just wanted a debate about the merits of baptist theology verses the merits of Orthodoxy.[/QB]
That's just bad form. Sounds like the type I've occasionally run across: On a Mission, itching for confrontation, oft full of themselves, martyr complex, etc. Usually get over themselves by middle age.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
As yet I have not heard back from New Frontiers on how much Terry Virgo is paid. (Nor Mark Driscoll from contacting Mars Hill either).
So I'm supposed to turn up at their churches, empty ten percent of my wages into their coffers and not have a clue how much goes into their wages, because they are so anointed that to even dare to ask the question is a sign of rebelliousness?
I can think of no other walk of life where this level of trust is demanded. Personally I think Christians should stop being naive. Transparent accounts or no donations. I do not believe God told them to make their salary top secret.
I'm an attorney by trade, now teach law at a university, have also taught accounting. In principle, these churches are asking their member-"shareholders" to invest assets without making disclosures essential to the investment decision. While not technically illegal, in my opinion it's unethical--and, of course, they have fools for shareholders!
At the New Frontiers church I attended, at first we had checks and balances. A young man working through an MBA and a middle aged fellow who was a CPA (same as Brit Chartered Accountant) and CFO of a non-profit for his day job were in charge of finances.
But then the Head Elder jettisoned them and took over. This was never announced to the church, it wasn't even revealed in the elder's meetings. He also discontinued support of the church's missionary-seminarian, whom he had promised from the pulpit in an elaborate Sending Out Ceremony the church would support throughout his academic career--again, never announced, never discussed even in elder's meetings. As an elder, I only found out when the very young "Yes Man" elder let it slip in a private conversation.
There were evidently only three people who knew of this changing of the guard and withdrawal of support prior to the Yes Man's slip of the tongue: Head Elder, his right hand man on the elder's team (whom I called The Enforcer because of his fierce loyalty to head elder and his huge muscles), and young Yes Man. The rest of the elder team, all half dozen of us, were kept completely in the dark (perhaps we were only there for show to "prove" the checks and balances).
At this church, if you revealed something they wanted kept secret, Head Elder would sometimes tell you you'd be "Serving Satan" by so doing, so I can only imagine he did everything he could to hush the outsted financial team and the defunded seminarian. I know it took some time for them to finally confess in private what had happened. When I confronted Head Elder and The Enforcer with what I'd discovered, they were furious: "WHO told you that?"
What bothered me was not so much that they would go back on a public promise of financial support and oust the original financial team, but that they'd do it, then do everything possible to conceal it while continuing to solicit donations each week. If they'd only revealed everything, people could have made informed decisions.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
Just got this back from New Frontiers. Asked for Terry Virgo's salary. Got this ! (No reply from Mars Hill yet).
Thanks for your email to Newfrontiers. I'm afraid I do not have the information you request. Leaders in Newfrontiers churches are employed by their churches and as such we don't hold salary information. Due to our data protection policy I'm not sure I would be able to divulge such information even if I had it.
Many thanks,
xxxxxx xxxxxxxxx
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Undiscovered Country
Shipmate
# 4811
|
Posted
Just come rather late to this thread. Sorry, haven't been here for a long time! A number of NewFrontiers churches tie leaders' salaries to teachers' salaries within schools.
I'll have a read through the rest of this thread later today!
--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all hope of progress rests with the unreasonable man.
Posts: 1216 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Welcome back! It's been a long time!
quote:
Originally posted by The Undiscovered Country:
A number of NewFrontiers churches tie leaders' salaries to teachers' salaries within schools.
This information is in fact already here, buried back on about page 4, here. Enjoy your read ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
|
Posted
I see that the admirable David Devenish has launched his 'new' apostolic sphere with a branded identity and a conference in 2013.
A conspiracy theorist may attach some significance to this conference being held on the Stoneleigh show ground, home for many years of the premier Newfrontiers annual corporate event. I'm personally more inclined to see this as a practical proposition for what is hoped to be an event for 4000 delegates.
Perhaps some clarity around other regional spheres will begin to emerge on the back of this move.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
Not another conference. Boy to these people love conferences. Do the leaders actually do much other than fly around the world attending conferences ?
Seems a nice jolly to me. Big salary, little or no accountability to the congregation, and frequent trips abroad to listen to the party line.
Of course they all have to have the official charismatic smiley face picture. Give me a grumpy but genuine git any day !
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
|
Posted
Apologies for double-post, just followed the link. "Continue to press into all that God has promised ...". Fox ache, what an overblown euphemism for "Plod on with life doing the same old same old".
I'n not sure I could cope with a life that was constantly so full of joyous excitement I had a permanent shit-eating grin welded to my face.
--------------------
Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
quote:
I'n not sure I could cope with a life that was constantly so full of joyous excitement I had a permanent shit-eating grin welded to my face.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Absolutely. I joked with my wife that the endless church banners showing glowing ecstatic people were very discriminatory towards grumpy middle aged men, and lacked diversity.
Far better to drop the mask and be honest. Much less stressful than the pressure outfits like NF can put on people. I'm glad I left. Oh bugger - they just made me smile !
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
In my NF days I once noticed (I can't for the life of me remember how) that the head of an ecstatic blonde had been photoshopped onto the body of some other worshipper in quite a prominent ad for Stoneleigh. I asked somebody about it but the reason was not forthcoming.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I'n not sure I could cope with a life that was constantly so full of joyous excitement I had a permanent shit-eating grin welded to my face.
Has gone in the Quotes File...
--------------------
A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Looks like those in the ranks are not sure whether this is a "breakup" or "the family growing up and leaving home". But apparently there is no longer any event attended by all these leaders. Read more here: The Emperor's New Frontiers.
[ 12. September 2012, 11:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
So; New Apostolic Sphere = Patriarchate
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
|
Posted
Interesting that none of the life group would know who the 'sphere leaders' are. So much for accountability...
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
So; New Apostolic Sphere = Patriarchate
Where did that come from? I briefly skimmed through the (very boring) article, but I couldn't see anything like that.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Looks like those in the ranks are not sure whether this is a "breakup" or "the family growing up and leaving home". But apparently there is no longer any event attended by all these leaders. Read more here: The Emperor's New Frontiers.
Interesting that leaders will develop their own "doctrinal distinctives." Virgo's an interesting character. Depending who you talk to he's either Papa Terry head of the NF Mafia or the Blessed Virgo full of grace. Have to see how his sons and grandsons turn out.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
Does this new structure lead to more accountability or less ?
It looks confused to me. Maybe its supposed to be. I just wish they'd go away. I'm still in recovery from their crappy and abusive theology.
Our local NF minister is continually traveling to NF overseas thousands of miles away to see his 'apostle'. Must be costing a fortune. Of course the congregation didn't get a say in it or the appointment of the 'apostle'. They're just supposed to 'submit to the vision' and shut up.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Undiscovered Country
Shipmate
# 4811
|
Posted
An explanation of what the new apostolic spheres mean in practice can be found at; http://www.christcentralchurches.org/ in the item labelled 'Jeremy Simpkins-Christ Central'.
(Incidentally the 2nd David Devenish preach-God's plan to change the world part 2' also has a really interesting exposition on how Christians should inter-act with arts and culture .)
--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all hope of progress rests with the unreasonable man.
Posts: 1216 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
