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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Internet Porn
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
Just tried that. (on my work PC no less) There was nothing pornagraphic in the results...
Doesn't Google tailor the results towards your own previous searches and your location? Google in the US will throw up very different sites to Google in the UK and if you have clicked on a few "adult" sites by accident in the past then they may me added into what is considered acceptable without the safesearch filter. We had problems with a PC in the office that had been brought in by a former member of staff and abandoned. Deleting all the internet history and cookies stopped it throwing up porn during searches once we figured out what was wrong.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
We had problems with a PC in the office that had been brought in by a former member of staff and abandoned. Deleting all the internet history and cookies stopped it throwing up porn during searches once we figured out what was wrong.
That's why sensible people use different browsers for work, rest, and play. And why they default to having cookies turned off and only turn them on for sites they know, trust, and intend to re-use. And why they use web browsers with "private browsing" turned on. And why they regularly delete their entire browsing history and cache. And why they use different usernames and passwords for different online activities (including "anonymous" if they are ever so foolish as to try to post on 4chan). And why pop-ups are turned off, firewalls are turned on, spam is never replied to, and if they are looking at anything they suspect of being dodgy they turn off scripting as well. And why they never use PayPal at all, and never are reluctant to use a credit card onine (really only for paying people they have heard of and have a street address for and never for porn or anything even a little dodgy) and why they never sign up or register for any porn site even if it claims to be free, and why they never look at anything dodgy with an iphone or similar. And why they regularly and frequently go over their computers with anti-virus and anti-adware and anti-trojan programs. And so on and on and on....
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I stumble on porn on the google images site all the time. I once typed the keyword, "dogs," and got graphic pictures of women having sex with dogs.
Just tried that. (on my work PC no less) There was nothing pornagraphic in the results. The most "adult" images were a couple of cheerleaders posing with a pet dog and a poster for the movie "Resevoir Dogs". This was with safesearch set to Moderate.
It sounds like you've got safesearch off. Under the search box, to the right you should see a box for "safesearch" choose "moderate" or "strict" and you shouldn't have this problem in future.
I just tried that too. Pages of really cute dogs (awwwww). Safesearch OFF, and I was logged in to my google account, from which I regularly search for actual porn, so you would think that if there was any tailoring of results, then it would push the porn further up. But nope, couldn't replicate your result there, sorry.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Twilight, do you have "Safe Search" set to "Off", "Moderate" or "Strict"?
Even with it "off" here, "dogs" produces, well, dogs. "Dogs f***ing" (without the stars) produces some decidedly tasteless results on "Off", fairly tasteless on "Moderate" and utterly pure on "Strict".
It's not that it can't happen, it's just that it's not that hard to set things so as to minimise/all but eradicate it.
I nearly always have mine set to "strict." The other day I googled images of some actress or something to see if I recognized her (and if she was cute, I'll be honest) and got nothing but nudie shots. I checked to be sure, and I was in fact on strict. As an experiment I put it onto "off" and the results were indistinguishable.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm not saying we should be crippled and overcome by guilt all the time, but for a christian to believe they should have no sense of guilt or shame, and therefore be able to do as they please would be... er... very unwise. [/QUOTE]
Guilt and shame are not the only driving forces. There's reason, empathy, knowledge of cause and effect, pride in doing what you believe is right, humanity. We don't desend to doing anything we please because of a lack of guilt and shame. At least I don't.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm not saying we should be crippled and overcome by guilt all the time, but for a christian to believe they should have no sense of guilt or shame, and therefore be able to do as they please would be... er... very unwise.
Guilt and shame are not the only driving forces. There's reason, empathy, knowledge of cause and effect, pride in doing what you believe is right, humanity. We don't desend to doing anything we please because of a lack of guilt and shame. At least I don't. [/QUOTE]
Good point. It seems that some Christians see shame and guilt as the actual forces which hold us back from a kind of moral anarchy. If I didn't feel guilty and ashamed, I would do what I want.
I suppose in relation to porn, therefore, this view would argue that not feeling shame and guilt over porn is itself, well, wrong.
This makes me feel dizzy, as it is such a negative view of humans.
I suppose it is loosely classed as 'repressive religion', or fear-based religion? Thank goodness that it is diminishing.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
A further point which I forgot to make is that it may well be shame and guilt which make people behave badly. In other words, if you feel unloved, worthless, devalued, and so on, you are more likely to not care about others, and treat them badly.
I think Freud says somewhere that criminals are not guilty because they are criminal, but criminal because they feel guilty.
Rather a controversial point, but it is a useful corrective to arguing that shame and guilt are actually in part foundations of morality.
There is also an issue about the 'internal goods' involved in being virtuous, but hang on, this is going wildly off-topic, although oddly, I feel no shame or guilt.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
It's OK mousethief, we know Josephine might read this thread too.
In contrast, I normally run Google with safe search set to off, and rarely see anything untoward unless I use a phrase which is deliberately suspect. No system is 100% perfect, but I can count on the fingers one one foot the times I've had filth back from a search engine when it hasn't been self-evidently likely from the search term/settings.
So, anyway, this actress, was she cute?
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
Sorry for the tangent but I just wanted to add that from early 2001 to very recently I had always asumed that mousethief was a woman.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Twilight, do you have "Safe Search" set to "Off", "Moderate" or "Strict"?
Even with it "off" here, "dogs" produces, well, dogs. "Dogs f***ing" (without the stars) produces some decidedly tasteless results on "Off", fairly tasteless on "Moderate" and utterly pure on "Strict".
It's not that it can't happen, it's just that it's not that hard to set things so as to minimise/all but eradicate it.
I nearly always have mine set to "strict." The other day I googled images of some actress or something to see if I recognized her (and if she was cute, I'll be honest) and got nothing but nudie shots. I checked to be sure, and I was in fact on strict. As an experiment I put it onto "off" and the results were indistinguishable.
That happens to me a lot because I watch old 40's movies and then Google on the actresses to see whatever happened to them. It seems every Lana Turner or Ava Garner has a porn star named after them.
I never dreamed my dog story would result in so many people working so hard to prove me a liar. I did say, "I once Googled on dogs," etc. It was years ago,so don't expect the same result today.
As for Ken's complicated plan to keep my internet safe. That sort of thing only works if you are the only person using the computer. Whether you're talking about eleven year old kids, teens, or somebody's wife, not everyone has total control of their computer. Everything you learn to set your teenager can learn to unset.
I would sign that petition without a bit of worry over people telling me what to read or write. Porn isn't allowed on my TV and I haven't felt like I've lost any essential freedoms over it. Our freedom of speech was designed to ensure that we could say what we wanted to about religion and politics, it was never meant to force us to read/see things we don't want. People who simply must have porn can still get it, just not on such a shared medium.
One thing I really dispute is that ten year-old kids stumbling on hard core porn are just going to "giggle and move on." I think they find it disturbing and that it stays with them.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
One thing I really dispute is that ten year-old kids stumbling on hard core porn are just going to "giggle and move on." I think they find it disturbing and that it stays with them.
Really?
I remember the porn that did the rounds of my school when I was 11-13. Some of it (people having sex with animals) was pretty gross, and got passed around for shock value, curiosity, and the excitement of possessing contraband. "Giggle and move on" is exactly what the normal reaction to it was. I was unusual in not wanting to look at it at all, but I didn't know anyone who was disturbed by it.
Do I want my children to see such material? No, of course I don't. It is clearly not appropriate for children and as a parent I should not expose them to it. That does not mean that I should run around as if the sky were falling, and the only thing to keep it up were to control what everyone in the whole country is allowed to look at unless they specifically select their ISP's Masturbation Package.
I think we as adults owerestimate how significant sex is from a child's perspective. As an example, I remember, at about age 10-11 (pre secondary school anyway) reading John Norman's Gor books. I didn't think, even then, that they were especially well written, but some of the images - the Tarn cavalry, the city states with their home stones, the deadly tribes of the wagon people, the sinister priest-kings - stayed with me. I was aware that in the society described, many women were slaves, and most slaves were women, but that made very little impression, and didn't seem very important.
I re-read one of the books for ideas for a D&D campaign some years later, and realised that it was essentially bondage porn. The whole female submission thing is what the author most wants to say. But I missed that, as a pre-adolescent, not because it wasn't there, or I couldn't understand, but because I didn't care. The (obnoxious) sexual dynamics were just padding between the (to me) interesting "strange new world" bits and fight scenes. It would be impossible for an adult to read books like that without a reaction to the sexual elements - but that is a child's natural reading.
Young children are naturally insulated against pornography. I'm not saying that they should be allowed free access to it, or that they cannot be damaged by abusive exposure, but I also don't think the risk of great harm resulting from accidentally viewing some tasteless images on the internet is one that's worth losing much sleep over. Turn on your parental controls, keep the PC in the living room, and you can supervise perfectly well without telling anyone else what they are allowed to look at.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Twilight,I wasn't trying to prove you a liar, more demonstrate that in the here and now you can do a lot without special good to avoid accidental exposure (as it were). Legislating now, based on how things used to be, is not wise.
As for youngsters, the best control isn't a systems one, which will never be totally effective. It's to have the family computer in a 'public' space, and to make it clear that they can talk about anything disturbing and won't be in trouble.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Twilight wrote:
Our freedom of speech was designed to ensure that we could say what we wanted to about religion and politics, it was never meant to force us to read/see things we don't want. People who simply must have porn can still get it, just not on such a shared medium.
I'm not sure where you get the idea of being forced to read something? It conjures up bizarre images of people actually chained to a book or a screen.
Anyway, in relation to the UK, I would dispute your definition of free speech. One of the key landmarks in the recent history of free speech was the Lady Chatterley trial, which permitted the sale of that famous novel by Lawrence.
Of course, there were those who said that Lady Chatterley was filth, porn, and so on, because it described sex explicitly, and used four-letter words, but thankfully this was refuted.
I have no doubt that some people were genuinely shocked and horrified by this novel, and I would think that some still are, but should this mean therefore that it should be banned? I would say no.
Of course, as kids, we all knew where the sexy bits were in the novel, and those pages were well-thumbed - I seem to remember that page 217 was a corker - but I don't think that constitutes an argument against its publication.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
quote:
Last month our church had copies of a petition against online pornography, which church members were encouraged to sign.
I hope they remove the rude bits from Song of Solomon while they're at it ! My Calvanistic church parents caused problems by removing me from sex education because of nude images. When I reached puberty I spent a few weeks worrying what the hell was going on. But for some mates with porn mags I wouldn't have known anything about sex. The Samaritans were I believe set up after a girl committed suicide when her periods started, and didn't know what was happening to her.
How well would the church deal with sex education ? Some denominations are stuck in the old gnostic heresy sex=bad celebacy=spiritual and obsessed with nudity and sexual sin. I think at New Frontiers porn was the 'sin' most often mentioned. Good to control the flock with accountability to a spiritual 'father'. Total crap theologically of course. The only verse they have from Matthew is IMO wrongly translated and isn't about general sexual attraction and lust at all. Its about the process of taking another's spouse, just as anger may lead to murder (and adultery in Jesus' day was defined in a polygamous society totally different to the way we now define it, which is often forgotten by most modern Christians)!
IMO some parts of the church have done much more harm to people's sexuality than porn due to being overly prudish and mistakenly thinking they had any justification in scripture for doing so. Generations of Christians have had false guilt inflicted on them for masturbation, lust, and their sexuality. I find that Roman and Greek artwork from the 1st century is every bit as pornographic as most images on the internet and yet it was a non issue for the early church. Not one single petition or rant from St Paul about it.
I sometimes wonder if these churches would prefer it if we all got our genitals chopped off. Then we'd be super spiritual wouldn't we ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I never dreamed my dog story would result in so many people working so hard to prove me a liar.
I for one didn't do it to prove you a liar I did it because I was genuinely surprised because I never stumble over porn unless I go looking for it. I also did it because I thought it was possible you didn't know about safesearch or had it turned off, and before explaining that I wanted to just check that it really would make a difference. (Too many years in Tech Support, I always check something before telling someone "do this")
quote:
I did say, "I once Googled on dogs," etc. It was years ago,so don't expect the same result today.
So if you don't expect that result today is it still relevant to a discussion taking place today? In context your remarks seem to be trying to add weight to the idea that we need to remove pornography from the internet so that children can't accidentally stumble across it.
Things like safesearch are the result of companies working hard to provide tools to prevent this kind of accidental exposure. I would suggest that next time an innocent search brings up porn you contact Google and let them know. I'm sure they'll be happy to fix it. (This explains how)
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I never dreamed my dog story would result in so many people working so hard to prove me a liar.
I wasn't trying to prove you a liar either. I guess I was perhaps trying to prove that your point was irrelevant?
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
quote:
Last month our church had copies of a petition against online pornography, which church members were encouraged to sign.
I hope they remove the rude bits from Song of Solomon while they're at it ! My Calvanistic church parents caused problems by removing me from sex education because of nude images...
How well would the church deal with sex education ?
No problems with sex ed! In fact a few years ago, on the Sunday closest to World Aids Day, the theme of the sermon was parental responsibility to provide good sex ed. The children present (over 8s) were told that if there was anything they wanted to know about sex, they should ask their parents over that day's Sunday lunch. And our teen youth group have done a full and frank Bible Study on Song of Solomon in Bible Study.
So the context of my congregation being urged to sign this petition is not sexual prudery. I think it's more a case of people not being very internet-savvy and just accepting the petition at face value - that 10 years routinely "stumble on" porn.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
quote:
Last month our church had copies of a petition against online pornography, which church members were encouraged to sign.
I hope they remove the rude bits from Song of Solomon while they're at it ! ...
The OT has a number of passages which, if filmed, would most definitely be very violent porn. How about Judges 19? ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
And our teen youth group have done a full and frank Bible Study on Song of Solomon in Bible Study.
Teaching them to take 100s of concubines, like Solomon did?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
A few years ago, I googled "forest watch bc" and got quite a few webcam sites. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I just tried it today and the top result was the correct company listing in a directory. OTOH, a friend recently sent me a NSFW link, and when I clicked it, the first page that came up was a warning that it was explicit content and a "Do you still wish to navigate to the website?" option.
Anyway, I do have another question. Even if we all agreed on what porn was, and if we succeeded in banning it, what about this? Or this? But wait, there's more.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Serious question - is it possible for men to wank and get the physical pleasure of orgasm without the visuals (imagined or real)?
Yes it is . But I would say it does require an general *feeling* of intimacy that doesn't have to have any real focus.
I think visuals are something of a short-cut . A bit like alcohol at a party in order to ensure a good time.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Serious question - is it possible for men to wank and get the physical pleasure of orgasm without the visuals (imagined or real)?
Yes it is . But I would say it does require an general *feeling* of intimacy that doesn't have to have any real focus.
I think visuals are something of a short-cut. A bit like alcohol at a party in order to ensure a good time.
So use of porn is maybe a bit ... lazy?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Follow-up to my post above: the gentlemen's underwear site I linked to subsequently appeared in a paid ad on two other non-underwear sites I visited.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Follow-up to my post above: the gentlemen's underwear site I linked to subsequently appeared in a paid ad on two other non-underwear sites I visited.
Yes, ads do that nowadays. If you visit for example, m&s or argos etc., their ads will show up on other sites that you visit afterwards, for several days. It will also remember what sorts of products you were browsing for too, and bring those up more frequently.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I think visuals are something of a short-cut. A bit like alcohol at a party in order to ensure a good time.
So use of porn is maybe a bit ... lazy?
One way of describing it I suppose . Indulgence/enhancement would be another.
I know having the IT awash with porn is something of a worry , and the effect of it on minors is as yet unknown .
However I suspect any moves to ban it would be about as successful as banning alcohol was in 1920's America .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
aww, bless - I blame them E numbers
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I can't believe this has only just occurred to you no prophet. Plus I and others have raised this on porn threads on the ship more times than I care to remember.
It is my primary objection to photographic and filmed porn - someone has to do that and they are unlikely to be involved because they had loads of other better choices.
I imagine this point has not been discussed in this thread because everyone agrees that it is wrong to produce porn through exploitation, and therefore wrong to use such porn.
However, I don't think this means that porn is ipso facto wrong. To show that you have to prove, e.g.:
- making porn is by its nature exploitative (ie, by people who would have preferred not to do it)
- any tolerance of non-exploitative porn necessarily results in the production of exploitative porn.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So use of porn is maybe a bit ... lazy?
Well yes, if you have a partner whom you ought at least to be trying to satisfy between the sheets.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
adultery in Jesus' day was defined in a polygamous society totally different to the way we now define it
How polygamous was society (especially Jewish society) in Jesus' day?
quote:
I sometimes wonder if these churches would prefer it if we all got our genitals chopped off.
They might try to justify it on the basis of Galatians 5:12.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Teaching them to take 100s of concubines, like Solomon did?
Yes and not only that but he is one of the only people to get TWO personal visits from the Lord, and offered the choice of what gift he would like ! Most churches would have excommunicated him !
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Kaplan Corday, this is an interesting, apparently-well-footnoted site regarding polygamy in Second Temple Judaism. It says that polygamy existed, particularly among the Jewish aristocracy and in cases of levirite marriage, and was "countenanced" by the school of Shammai, but condemned by Hillel and Qumran.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Well yes, if you have a partner whom you ought at least to be trying to satisfy between the sheets.
The very reason I don't do porn.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Josephus says that Herod had several wives and concubines, as well as a catamite, in terms which suggest that this was normal and expected at the time.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Kaplan Corday, this is an interesting, apparently-well-footnoted site regarding polygamy in Second Temple Judaism. It says that polygamy existed, particularly among the Jewish aristocracy and in cases of levirite marriage, and was "countenanced" by the school of Shammai, but condemned by Hillel and Qumran.
I was aware of polygamy among the Herods, but assumed that they were sui generis party animals, whom nearly all Jews regarded as heterodox Edomites.
It was interesting to read of residual polygamy amongst some Jewish groups, of which I was unaware.
Having said that, I would still maintain that Arminan's reference to the "polygamous society" of Jesus' day is exaggerated and misleading.
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I read an essay by an Orthodox rabbi (I think it was in the early '80s) in which he said that polygamy (and concubinage) was still permissible under Jewish law (though he made it clear he wasn't advocating it).
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
A friend of mine used to be a porn actress. She was born in Germany, had a pretty crappy childhood, moved to the US in her late teens to be an au pair, ended up working as a porn actress and later, as a prostitute (being involved in both these activities is not uncommon). Decided she wanted out in her early twenties, became a Christian and is now back in Europe working with an organisation that helps young women who want to leave the sex industry.
My friend is obviously only one person but in some ways I think she is probably quite a good example - not coerced as such, but certainly vulnerable. I think being able to associate the effects of the industry with an actual person I know has definitely changed the way I think about pornography.
The thing that she describes as one of the most destructive aspects of the porn industry is one that no one has mentioned so far. Obviously anecdotal, but she says one of the biggest problems for people she has known involved in the industry is that it screws up your ability to form healthy relationships. Because however liberated we may claim to be in our attitudes towards sex and pornography, the truth is very, very few people can handle being in a long term relationship with someone who has sex with other people for money.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
I believe the Romans tried to ban polygamy in the 4th century, but gave an exception for Jews. This suggests that at least some Jews were still polygamous. It may not have been that widespread but it certainly hadn't died out. Jesus said nothing to condemn them at all, nor did Paul (which incidentally was Martin Luther's view).
We also have Paul's advice that the leader of a church must be a 'one woman man', which although somewhat ambiguous in Greek, suggests a non polygamous man. By implication some of the early Christians may have been polygamists.
Of course a great deal of the Bible was penned by polygamous Jews. It was not considered sin in the old testament, and in the case of a widow who had a brother in law, he was required to marry her even if he already had a wife. If he refused, he was to be shamed in front of the elders !
I just get pissed of by Conservative Evo's who simply ignore the bits of the bible on sex that don't fit easily into their belief system. 'Don't lust, sex only in monogamous marriage or God hates you, and be anti gay' is pretty much the standard attitude portrayed by so much of the charismatic church. The Bible isn't so clear cut.
How about threesomes in the Old Testament ? Two or more women and one man - they can all jump into bed together and no sin offering is required as long as they are all married. No prohibition on lesbianism in the OT either. Bet that doesn't get mentioned much in many church services.
I do believe one man one woman for life is God's ideal, but its interesting that when God had the chance to legislate for this in the law, he didn't, probably because he knew many people wouldn't live up to it.
Its even been suggested that Jesus' parable of the seven virgins was of a rich king coming for multiple brides. I have no idea if this was so, although it does make a 'type' for a single king and many members of the church !
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Yes, but does The Song of Solomon cause this problem?
Interesting testimonal from the guy who suffered erectile dysfunction from p0rn use, but then kicked the habit, and is now impressed with how "HUGE" and "ENOROMUS" and "ROCK HARD"(all-caps in the original) his erections get.
Which may very well be true. But it's quite a switch from the previous generation of feminist-influenced p0rn criticism, which, while perhaps not outright demonizing male sexuality, certainly did not go out of its way to celebrate the virtues of HUGE ENORMOUS ROCK HARD penises.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Because however liberated we may claim to be in our attitudes towards sex and pornography, the truth is very, very few people can handle being in a long term relationship with someone who has sex with other people for money.
Highlighting that perfectly ridiculous male ideology of peeking at porn, playing around with loose women and then, as if by magic, finding a virgin pure to marry.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Within my objections, I also include some concerns about the men and women who are photographed/filmed for porn. I haven't studied this much, but I'm not convinced that this is 100% voluntary.
It certainly was for me...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
As an example, I remember, at about age 10-11 (pre secondary school anyway) reading John Norman's Gor books. I didn't think, even then, that they were especially well written
Have you seen Houseplants of Gor, by the way? "You dare not water me!" cried the spider plant. "You will be watered," said Borin...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Have you seen Houseplants of Gor, by the way? "You dare not water me!" cried the spider plant. "You will be watered," said Borin...
Oh yes. Very funny, and captures Norman's style uncannily well.
To clarify, it is not the bondage/domination elements per se that I find obnoxious in the Gor books, but the protagonist's explicit belief that all women are natural slaves and can be expected to accept and enjoy treatment which is non-consensual and abusive.
However, I am aware that the books are a fantasy, not a political manifesto. I think that it would be possible to enjoy the sexual/fantasy element (if such is your kink)without endorsing the protagonist's views in real life, and it is certainly possible to so enjoy the sci-fi/fantasy elements in that way, because as a child, I did. And that has had (as far as I can tell) absolutely no effect on my attitude to women or to sexual relationships*.
Which is to say, I wouldn't want my son to read the Gor books until he knows enough about girls to be aware that some of them are not, in fact, crying out to be enslaved by a dominant man; even though I am quite certain that I read them myself at such an age without any harmful effects whatever. I think I'd have exactly the same attitude to visual porn - I'd discourage it, but I'm not scared of it.
(*I will, though, confess that having read The Stainless Steel Rat books (such of them as were then written) around the same time, Angelina diGriz will always be my ideal woman.)
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Oh, I remember Tarl Cabot being given statistics for D&D in an issue of Dragon Magazine years ago, along with other characters from novels and the like.
Never read Stainless Steel Rat (I think Harry Harrison passed recently, sad to tell you). Though this is arguably getting further away from the topic of porn...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
I find Gorean folk a lot like Christians....
Many of the Goreans that I've met on the interwebz are obnoxious turds, but in general, the ones I've met in real life are lovely, decent and honourable people. It's like the weirdness found in the books have been ironed out by the daily reality of trying to live up to the ideals and virtues of their Gorean philosophy.
Oh yeah, and a lot of them were utterly sexist, but very polite about it.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Never read Stainless Steel Rat
Do. Great fun. And about 50,000 times better written than any of John Norman's trash.
And yes, Harry Harrison died a few weeks ago. Nice bloke.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Oh, I've managed to avoid reading John Norman (though the parodies are fun) thus far. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) And yes, I even know some Goreans who find the majority of other Goreans annoying at best as well. They tend to be like, well, the obsessed live-like-a-Klingon Star Trek fans of the BDSM world.
I managed to get through a sizable amount of a truly ghastly Gor movie once (which also managed to leave out all of the master-slavey stuff, thus rendering the entire enterprise completely pointless; also, home stones are magical artifacts! Yikes). I could not convince my Gorean friend/family member to watch it at all...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Oh, and OH MY GOD the crossover between a certain type of Gorean lifestyler and a certain type of Christian that I have encountered--again, online, not in person--is... awkward. There's a sort of sub-sub-subculture which takes elements of the "husband/father headship of the household" notion and combines them with, well, Gor. Not that there need be anything wrong with that in and of itself (hmmm, what would Paul's Epistle to the Goreans be like, exactly? Since everyone, male and female, would be a (has to go look up the word) kajirus or kajira to God, but also the men would all have to deal with the idea that they have to see Christ as the Bridegroom...), but it seems to usually drift into the "Woot! I'm the man, so I get to do whatever I want, and God approves!" mindset.
Er, Gor in this sense has nothing at all to do with this toy I had as a child, by the way.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Oh, I remember Tarl Cabot being given statistics for D&D in an issue of Dragon Magazine years ago, along with other characters from novels and the like.
I didn't know that (I was a White Dwarf and Imagine reader, rather than Dragon) but it doesn't surprise me. The books were sold, and, in many cases, read as mainstream fantasy/sci-fi, not erotica.
It strikes me that there must have been thousands of nerdy kids 20+ years ago whose first experience of erotic fiction was reading John Norman. I can think of at least three of us in my close friendship group. I don't think it had any affect at all on our attitudes to sex. In my case, I didn't even realise that it was erotic fiction at the time.
I'm sure it is possible to create abusive and sexist attitudes in a child's mind by conditioning them to view abusive and sexist material as if it were normal, but that takes more than occassional exposure to inappropriate material. I'm really not much more worried about my children stumbling upon internet porn than I am about them, say, asking me what the condom machine in the Gents is for. It might, at worst, make me address some issue or have some conversation somewhat earlier than I'd have chosen, but it's well within the limits of parental competence to deal with.
We live in a media rich world, and we are a highly sexualised species. It is unrealistic to think that children will not see sexual images frequently, and pornography occasionally, whatever we do to try to control that. Giving them good positive education seems to me much more important that worrying about censorship.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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