Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:
And are you suggesting mysticism is arrogant because it experiences the divine "up close and personal"?!

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:
And are you suggesting mysticism is arrogant because it experiences the divine "up close and personal"?!

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Not at all. Mysticism is a very personal thing, and is not very suited to broad claims of truth. The arrogance I spoke of was that of assuming you can know god in a way which falsifies others experiences of god. You seemed to imply that love of god stemmed from intimately experiencing him/it, which seems to leave a lot of christians bereft of loving god.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
I already suggested a possible alternative meaning.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
eh?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's the "love God" bit I have trouble with.

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I take the "loving God" to imply that you're a happier person if you accept your lot in life, rather than always striving to get ahead.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's the "love God" bit I have trouble with.

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I take the "loving God" to imply that you're a happier person if you accept your lot in life, rather than always striving to get ahead.

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Aha! Sorry

Could you say how you think that is "loving"?

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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:
Could you say how you think that is "loving"?

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:
Could you say how you think that is "loving"?

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In order to love someone you sometimes have to forget about the things about them which annoy you. The same might apply to god, however you define god.

Personally, god is not my neighbour. And he/it is does not have a quasi-human character.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:
Dont you think loving requires embracing rather that tollerating?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:
Dont you think loving requires embracing rather that tollerating?

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In the case of god - what the hell is someone supposed to embrace?

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Well, how do you embrace:

Liberty

Hope

A better way of living



You dont need to use your arms, explicitly.

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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
You seem to be talking about embracing human emotion. So god is simply a human emotion to you?

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Lol no. I am giving examples of embracing a non-physical something

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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
You seem to be talking about embracing human emotion. So god is simply a human emotion to you?

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Lol no. I am giving examples of embracing a non-physical something

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
You seem to be talking about embracing human emotion. So god is simply a human emotion to you?

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Lol no. I am giving examples of embracing a non-physical something

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OK - so let me ask again. In the case of god what the hell are you supposed to embrace?

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Godself. Which is probably an answer that leaves you all

I cant make you understand it by reason, you need to experience it through epiphany (which cannot be brought about by act of will, it can only be "allowed" to happen by yourself)

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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)

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Originally posted by Teapot:
I cant make you understand it by reason, you need to experience it through epiphany (which cannot be brought about by act of will, it can only be "allowed" to happen by yourself)

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Why then does Jesus suggest that we 'love God'? Surely he should be saying that we should 'love God if we've experienced epiphany'? In fact, I'd expect someone like Jesus to suggest how we might go about a compromise if we never come to experience epiphany. Strangely that condition doesn't seem to feature. Any idea why?

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Well the instruction tells us what we need to do...perhaps how we do it is the rest of the whole book?

Actually, instructions for knowing God happen pretty early on in the bible

"Be still and know that I am God" (my emphasis added)

In order to love god we must open up to epiphany. We cant make it happen, we must allow him in. Invite him in and open the door, but not grab him by the arm and pull

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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Loving something which there is not just no empirical evidence for, and no convincing individual personal experience of, but also no coherent personal experiences of amongst even those who give their lives to it is near impossible.

But then, I'm guessing that loving god is pretty easy for someone who loves George Bush.

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I dont need evidence that I can in return show you, in order to believe in and love god. Personal experience is sufficient to the task for me and that is not transferable to you so I will not try

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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)

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quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Excellent. So, Jesus says I should love god. The proper christian tells me that in order to do that I have to experience 'epiphany', yet that there is no way we can experience that through choice. Therefore, either Jesus is being unreasonable in his expectations, or the writings of christianity present a strange and twisted cultish pact.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the proper christian is wrong.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Teapot:
Epiphany happens when we stop trying to do stuff....its a gift waiting for us to accept not something that happens on the whim of Jesus.

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quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
I take the "loving God" to imply that you're a happier person if you accept your lot in life, rather than always striving to get ahead.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:
Epiphany happens when we stop trying to do stuff....its a gift waiting for us to accept not something that happens on the whim of Jesus.

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quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
I take the "loving God" to imply that you're a happier person if you accept your lot in life, rather than always striving to get ahead.

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Really - what's the difference?

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
In this case the dogma has probably moved so far from the original meaning through changes in the meaning of 'love' and 'god' that it is a totally different animal to how it was first intended.

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Probably "obey". Most people who tell me to "love God" tend to mean I should do whatever they think He's telling me to do...

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I'm not sure why it is important about what these other people think.

I mean yes -- obeying God is important but who's to say these other people who are telling what they think God's wants for you are right

We are all fools - I mean that include everything I post . I think the really smart people know how little they know...

What do you think?

[ 02. February 2006, 21:17: Message edited by: Joyfulsoul ]

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Teapot:
Loving implies in many ways "intimately knowing" someone....

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Love of God must equate to arrogance in the Christian sense then.

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Heh. I so agree with you. I often want to say to those who claim they know God but are extremely judgemental and demanding that are Right™ with a Capital R, "So, if you say you know God sososo well than why you are still so f*cked up?"

But I don't say that because I'm a good little christian . Because I've noticed that its not the loud and noisy ones who are bragging how they are just sooosososoos close to God but it is usually the most kind and patient and loving and humble that actually have a better grasp of who God is.

For goodness' sake, I think if you really catch a glimpse of who God is than you begin to realise how pathetic and pitiable your idea or knowledge of God was before. At least, that's been my experience.

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Excellent. So, Jesus says I should love god. The proper christian tells me that in order to do that I have to experience 'epiphany', yet that there is no way we can experience that through choice. Therefore, either Jesus is being unreasonable in his expectations, or the writings of christianity present a strange and twisted cultish pact.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the proper christian is wrong.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Probably "obey". Most people who tell me to "love God" tend to mean I should do whatever they think He's telling me to do...

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I'm not sure why it is important about what these other people think.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:

God doesn't want obedience.

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Really?
That God wants us to be obedient to his commands in no way negates the idea that he did not create us like robots. In fact, we were created "for obedience to Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:2). This does not mean that God chooses our actions and dictates our life as if programming a machine, but it does mean that he knows what's best for us. Obedience is an active choice on our part to submit to the will of God.

Posted                       

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Originally posted by Wolfgang:
the will of God.

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Posted                       

quote:

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I'm sorry if what I wrote became unclear and confusing but I stand firmly by my whole post.

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quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfgang:
the will of God.

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Lovely phrase, but totally meaningless.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Obedience is an active choice on our part to submit to the will of God.

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quote:

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ability to engage with love, hope, and transformation.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
OK, in the broader sense we know some things about God's mind

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by strathclydezero:

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfgang:
the will of God.

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Lovely phrase, but totally meaningless.

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No offence to anyone....but it reminds me of the crusaders battle cry of "God wills it!"

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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)

Posted                       

quote:

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Such as?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Maybe I wan't clear, or was too ready to result to jargon. When I wrote of "God's mind", I meant, "the things that are God's concerns vis-a-vis humanity", rather than the unsearchable mysteries of the interactions between the persons of the Trinity.

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That much was clear.

[ 06. February 2006, 14:01: Message edited by: strathclydezero ]

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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov

Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfgang:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:

God doesn't want obedience.

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Really?

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Yes, really.

I know Freddy will heartily disagree with me, but I believe Joyful was saying that it is not what God primarily wants. She was just humble enough not to argue it with you.

"Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice."


Obey all you want and alone it won't please God. (Without faith it is impossible to please God, not obedience.)

-Digory

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
She was just humble enough not to argue it with you.

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Posted                       

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"Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

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quote:

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(Without faith it is impossible to please God, not obedience.)

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Posted                         

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Originally posted by Wolfgang:

quote:

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"Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

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Unsure how this proves your point, Digory.

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quote:

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Hosea 6.4 “ O Ephraim, what shall I do to you?
O Judah, what shall I do to you?
For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud,
And like the early dew it goes away.
And your judgments are like light that goes forth.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 “ But like men they transgressed the covenant;
There they dealt treacherously with Me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers
And defiled with blood.
9 As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man,
So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem;
Surely they commit lewdness.
10 I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel:
There is the harlotry of Ephraim;
Israel is defiled.

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quote:

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Matthew 9:12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Matthew 12:6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

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Posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Freddy, what is your understanding on God's desire for our love vs. acts of faith?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
But what really comes to mind is the Corinthians verse:

"if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."

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Posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So clearly those of us that have not love may as well do what we damn well like, coz no amount of trying to please God is going to cut it. That's what that verse says to me...

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
But what really comes to mind is the Corinthians verse:

"if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."

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So clearly those of us that have not love may as well do what we damn well like, coz no amount of trying to please God is going to cut it. That's what that verse says to me...

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