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"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

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"Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it."

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

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If I was more Biblically knowledgeable I would probably have other more acute examples.

So what do we make of this? It feels like a catch-22. If we do good works or avoid bad conduct because the Bible tells us to, are we treating the NT as the New Law? And is that okay? What if good deeds don't seem to be arising like a fountain from our salvation, if we "try" to make good deeds happen are we just faking it, are they not real good deeds? Does that mean we are the goats who cry "Lord! Lord!" yet aren't up to snuff? Or if we don't live under the Law are we doomed by "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"? And if Grace cancels out that hard fate, why did Jesus state he requires such conduct?



[ 27. February 2006, 22:41: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

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What is being taught, I think, is that we are right with God only because of what he has done, not because of anything we have done. We can have complete confidence that we are now with Christ in heaven.

Good works are what we do now that we are in Christ. They have been prepared in advance for us by God, that is, even what good we do has already (in one sense) been done by God.

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This working out of what God's grace really means is the basis of boundless joy and assurance for those who trust in Jesus and his death!

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So, 2+2=5...

Let me rephrase that, because your language barks up the wrong tree for me.

This working out of what God's grace really means is the basis of boundless joy in the anticipation of that one-ness with God Jesus in his life, death, resurrection and ascension obtained for us.

I use the word anticipation, because we live in the now and the not yet. This state of being in the now and not yet calls for hope. This is the hope we have of eternal life beholding God as God truly is, face to face.

If an expression of salvation ignores this overarching fact, it is falling short of the whole truth. I feel your "boundless joy and assurance" is like salvation for salvation's sake, with a focus on the one saved (me, you, whoever) and on the moment of salvation. Which is a very individualistic and egotistical view. We can never forget that our ultimate purpose as the Corporate Body of Christ (and therefore as individuals within it who are dearly loved by Christ) is to "glorify God and enjoy him forever." [I aint forgotten my Westminster Shorter Catechism! ]

Apart from the arrogance of the doctrine of assurance (in that it ignores the necessary virtue of hope), there is very little that separates your position from that of mainstream catholics. And the rest of us.

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f an expression of salvation ignores this overarching fact, it is falling short of the whole truth. I feel your "boundless joy and assurance" is like salvation for salvation's sake, with a focus on the one saved (me, you, whoever) and on the moment of salvation. Which is a very individualistic and egotistical view. We can never forget that our ultimate purpose as the Corporate Body of Christ (and therefore as individuals within it who are dearly loved by Christ) is to "glorify God and enjoy him forever." [I aint forgotten my Westminster Shorter Catechism! ]

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
We can have complete confidence that we are now with Christ in heaven.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
That will be the Roman view Ingo is pointing you towards there.

The biblical view is well summarized here:

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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

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What is being taught, I think, is that we are right with God only because of what he has done, not because of anything we have done. We can have complete confidence that we are now with Christ in heaven.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
That will be the Roman view Ingo is pointing you towards there.

The biblical view is well summarized here

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Originally posted by Macrina:
Problem with discussions like this is that somehow they always end up bringing in the issue that if all good works come from God's grace acting on us then the very act of deciding to follow God must be facilitated by God pouring out his grace upon us to allow it.

This leads us on to the rather shaky ground of predestination.

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Originally posted by phoenix_811:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
That will be the Roman view Ingo is pointing you towards there.

The biblical view is well summarized here:

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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

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Actually, Gordon, the claim you seem to be making here is not "the biblical view" (more on this in a sec), but the Reformed view. Especially when you tack on:

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What is being taught, I think, is that we are right with God only because of what he has done, not because of anything we have done. We can have complete confidence that we are now with Christ in heaven.

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That last sentence sounds an awful lot like the predestination confidence taught by Calvin. Meanwhile, back to "the biblical view." Biblical scholarship has demonstrated rather convincingly that there are a plethora of views represented in the Bible. (See especially J.D. Dunn Unity and Diversity in the New Testament). To claim any one view as "the biblical view" is rather a red herring in this day and age.

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Philippians 2:12-13 12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

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Now I know that by the context "work out your own salvation" refers mostly to the fact that Paul can't be there to hold the hand of the young church at Phillippi. But it also seems to say salvation isn't necessarily present and they need to work on it. Now I know this is perfectly logical to an Orthodox Christian, but how does it fit for those who believe in a salvation event? When a person says those magic words "I repent and accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior" salvation is not assured? If works don't start happening it didn't "take"? Or, poor you, even if you desire salvation you are not among the Elect- too bad, so sad? Or you are being contrarily smug and sinful in your sense of salvation and therefore dropped the ball and lost you salvation?

As you see still rather .

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Nunc, you and I would differ on whether faith is a work or not, as you've already said.

Faith, on my understanding, is a settled attitude of trust. It's not a specifically Christian idea; everyone trusts something, whether their chair, their bus-driver, their internet connection, or their mother. Christian faith is a free gift of God's grace and is different from the other types of faith only because of its object, the Lord Jesus.

However, there is no work whatsoever involved in such faith, at least on my part. Even the will to trust God is only there because God through his Spirit brought me to life in the first place (yes, this is the standard Calvinist position).

Lyda, the verses you highlight from Philippians are another excellent summary of the biblical view of the relationship between works and faith.

I'll keep saying "the" biblical view not because I haven't heard the objections that 'there's no such thing', but because it's a shorthand way of describing my own position in contrast to the positions held by others. The details of particular discussions will show up whether or not the claim that there is a bibilical view is coherent, or not.

The way I reconcile Paul's belief stated elsewhere that salvation is "not by works", but "by grace through faith", and his statement in Phil 1:12-13 that we must "work out" our faith with fear and trembling, is to realize that the faith he's speaking about must express itself in works, or it is not true faith. If the train's engine (faith) moves forward, the attached carriages (works) must follow—although Paul may not have used this analogy

Any assurance we might have, however, comes not because we know that God will look at our works together with our faith and freely deem them meritorious (the Roman position—and actually, it contains no assurance, because this would on their view be presumption). It comes because we know that it is indeed God who is at work, as v 13 says. He is both originator and overseer of our faith, and of the work that follows.

Just a few verses earlier, in Philippians 1:6, Paul expresses exactly this confidence when he says:

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1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

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I'll keep saying "the" biblical view not because I haven't heard the objections that 'there's no such thing', but because it's a shorthand way of describing my own position in contrast to the positions held by others. The details of particular discussions will show up whether or not the claim that there is a bibilical view is coherent, or not.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I'll keep saying "the" biblical view not because I haven't heard the objections that 'there's no such thing', but because it's a shorthand way of describing my own position in contrast to the positions held by others.

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Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
Arguably, these people are not justified -- despite their best efforts they live sinful lives. Arguably God ordains that this should be the case, that some people should be denied justification. This is logically coherent, but I don't see how a benevolent God can show such inequity to his creatures.

Can anybody shed any light on this?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I'll keep saying "the" biblical view not because I haven't heard the objections that 'there's no such thing', but because it's a shorthand way of describing my own position in contrast to the positions held by others. The details of particular discussions will show up whether or not the claim that there is a bibilical view is coherent, or not.

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• you're right and everyone else is wrong,
• your stated position is your interpretation of Scripture, and is open for discussion.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
That will be the Roman view Ingo is pointing you towards there.

The biblical view is well summarized here

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Gordon - the definite article is exclusive, no matter how many ""'s you put round it. Your position is either:

• you're right and everyone else is wrong,
• your stated position is your interpretation of Scripture, and is open for discussion.

Which is it?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I'm also making the claim that the biblical view is not private property, endlessly under a cloud of doubt and misunderstanding but accessible to the church of God.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
There is no such thing as "the biblical view". There is "the Roman opinion of what the biblical view is" and "the Gordo opinion of what the biblical view is" and "the gnpcb.org opinion of what the biblical view is" and so on ad nauseam.

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How very post-modern of you.



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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Originally posted by Gordon:
"I'm also making the claim that the biblical view is not private property, endlessly under a cloud of doubt and misunderstanding by others. Rather, the biblical view is accessible to the church of God."

I think Trisagion and Ingo's view would be that the Roman church is the church of God.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
So if the Biblical view is the view accessible to the Church, then it is rather unlikely that the Biblical view is Calvinism.

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Unless of course you're going to define the Church as "Calvinists and no-one else". But that would be a bit circular, now...

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
So if the Biblical view is the view accessible to the Church, then it is rather unlikely that the Biblical view is Calvinism.

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Why?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
"I'm also making the claim that the biblical view is not private property, endlessly under a cloud of doubt and misunderstanding by others. Rather, the biblical view is accessible to the church of God."

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I conclude that the person who doesn't love, and/or who apostasizes, demonstrates that they never really had saving faith.

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31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Originally posted by Demas:
I am told that my faith is real if I love and that people who love evangelise and visit widows. Perhaps if I evangelise and visit widows then I will prove to myself, my church and God that I love and thus that my faith is real.

And back we slide into conditional works-based salvation...

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"For unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of the heavens.” Matthew 5:20.

“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36“But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12.35-27

"No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19.16

At the completion of the age angels will go forth and separate the wicked from out of the midst of the righteous. Matthew 13:49.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7.21-23

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 9“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love. John 15.6-10

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Revelation 22.12-15

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Originally posted by Demas:
As an aside - Justinian: would you classify the message you are drawing from the passage above (that we will be judged and sent to heaven or hell based on whether we have done enough good deeds in this life) as good news?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
It's only arrogant to claim that something is "the biblical view" if some kind of merit attaches to having worked out what it is. But my view is that a child is more likely to understand what the Bible is saying than a theologian of many degrees.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
The alternative is to say that most of the Church is wrong. But how can the meaning of Scripture be said to be accessible to the Church if most of the Church can't understand it?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
<snip> Preoccupation with my own good works as a means of assurance means that I am looking at the wrong thing—myself rather than Christ.

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Originally posted by Zappa:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
<snip> [qb]Preoccupation with my own good works as a means of assurance means that I am looking at the wrong thing—myself rather than Christ.

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(italics added)

Are there people who are preoccupied with something called "works" "as a means of assurance."

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originally posted by the Zappa:
Whatever "works" are, and I think the word is a "process linguistic" with very little real meaning

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Mate, I don't want to be nasty here, but I think there's an irony going on somewhere in this statement

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

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Originally posted by Justinian:
Today's reading is taken from the gospel of Matthew, chapter 25 verses 31-46

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31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Gordon, as you can see, Jesus himself explicitely says that the judgement shall take place based upon what individuals actually did - without mentioning what they believed.

In other words, the biblical view as expressed by Jesus of Nazareth, the Son, rather than Saul of Tarsus, is that salvation shall be decided on what was actually done - i.e. Works.

Jesus himself, when outlining the criteria that will be used for the judgement above says nothing about faith.

Why then do you say that The Biblical View™ is that salvation is through faith alone? Clearly there is strong biblical support from Jesus himself that salvation is through works.

If you were to call it the Gordon Cheng view, I don't think anyone would object - but to call it The Biblical View™ is to leave out large and important sections of the bible - and those from Jesus himself rather than Saul of Tarsus.

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I'm screwed.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
<snip> Mate, I don't want to be nasty here, but I think there's an irony going on somewhere in this statement

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No nastiness inferred ... I presume you're suggesting that "process linguistic" is a slightly obscure term ? It's an attempt to turn into an adjectival phrase the media notion that we can all fall too easily into "process language." Words like "works" and "personal lord and saviour" become vacuous syllables - some might call them "vain repetitions"
- when bandied around with out referece to application in the here and now. So, in other words, what the hell is "a work?"

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I'm screwed.

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I guess it can't hurt asking Mary to put in a good word then?

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Put not your trust in princes.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Now my good works (or lack thereof) may well prove that have integrity or, alternatively, that I am the most dreadful hypocrite and am going to get it in the neck come judgement day. But the only basis for assurance I have is the cross of Christ, to which I'm called on to respond by faith issuing in good works.

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Originally posted by AdamPater:

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I'm screwed.

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I guess it can't hurt asking Mary to put in a good word then?

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Originally posted by Freddy:

I agree with Justinian. This is just one of several similar statements by Jesus. For example:
[QUOTE]

8< many excellent statements of our Lord snipped 8<

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10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

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12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

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Originally posted by AdamPater:

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I'm screwed.

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I guess it can't hurt asking Mary to put in a good word then?

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