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Originally posted by Demas:

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Originally posted by AdamPater:

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I'm screwed.

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I guess it can't hurt asking Mary to put in a good word then?

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If we are to be judged on our deeds then how would that help?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I believe it is absolutely true that we will be judged accoring to what we have done. That is why I am so thankful that not only am I judged, but I am completely forgiven for all by trusting in the work of Jesus completed at the cross.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
That is why I am so thankful that not only am I judged, but I am completely forgiven for all by trusting in the work of Jesus completed at the cross.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
If our names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, it follows that our entrance into the Heavenly city can't possibly be because of any decision we've made, or anything we've done, whether good or evil.

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And thus your faith furthermore rests on ignoring some basic points about the relation of time to eternity widely appreciated at least since Boethius (AD 524)...

I must remember that "biblical" means "according to scripture interpreted so that it says precisely what I want it to say, no matter how much of a stretch that is". English can be so counter-intuitive at times...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I believe it is absolutely true that we will be judged accoring to what we have done. That is why I am so thankful that not only am I judged, but I am completely forgiven for all by trusting in the work of Jesus completed at the cross.

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I understand how you have this idea from Paul, but where does Jesus teach it?

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Originally posted by Demas:
If we are to be judged on our deeds then how would that help?

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I believe it is absolutely true that we will be judged accoring to what we have done. That is why I am so thankful that not only am I judged, but I am completely forgiven for all by trusting in the work of Jesus completed at the cross.

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I understand how you have this idea from Paul, but where does Jesus teach it?

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There are a number of ideas here, and I'm not sure which one you mean Freddy. The idea that we are judged according to what we've done? The idea that Jesus offers us unconditional forgiveness? The idea that his death was complete and sufficient to bring reconciliation with God?

IngoB, I'm feeling relieved. I had almost understood the last half-dozen of your posts, but I am happy to say you've lost me completely with this last one, so it looks like we're back to business as usual . I think I am using judgement in one of the ways that others normally understand it. (definition #7 here). All I'm saying is that it falls on Christ not on us, when we place our trust in him.

As for John the writer of Revelation, are you saying that he shared Boethius' view of the nature of time and eternity (c. 524 AD)? More information please, before we move onto our Celebrity Squares segment...

[ 23. January 2006, 03:33: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I believe it is absolutely true that we will be judged accoring to what we have done. That is why I am so thankful that not only am I judged, but I am completely forgiven for all by trusting in the work of Jesus completed at the cross.

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I understand how you have this idea from Paul, but where does Jesus teach it?

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There are a number of ideas here, and I'm not sure which one you mean Freddy. The idea that we are judged according to what we've done? The idea that Jesus offers us unconditional forgiveness? The idea that his death was complete and sufficient to bring reconciliation with God?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think I am using judgement in one of the ways that others normally understand it.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
As for John the writer of Revelation, are you saying that he shared Boethius' view of the nature of time and eternity (c. 524 AD)? More information please, before we move onto our Celebrity Squares segment...

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Originally posted by Freddy:
The one that says that Jesus offers unconditional forgiveness without repentance and regardless of how we live.

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23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I don't think Jesus (or Paul for that matter) expected any less than a complete turnaround in the lives of those who accepted God's free offer of forgiveness.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
]"Expected" in the sense of asked for, demanded -- yes. "Expected" in the sense of figured that is what would happen? Hardly. "The very thing I don't want to do, that thing I do."

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1 Thessalonians 1:9 "For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

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Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Mate, break out the hymn books. We agreed on something! And, the Beatles are the greatest rock band of this age, or indeed of any age.

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2 for 2.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Ingo, I believe that Jesus judges us as complete failures in every area of our moral existence. There are many places in the four gospels where Jesus exposes the failure and hypocrisy of his hearers, both individually and corporately.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
This judgement by Jesus will be confirmed on the final day of judgement; but for those who have trusted in Jesus' death and resurrection, and received his Holy Spirit, the last word they hear will not be that word of judgement but our Lord's word of pardon and welcome.

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And thus your faith furthermore rests on ignoring some basic points about the relation of time to eternity widely appreciated at least since Boethius (AD 524)...

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Now I know this is perfectly logical to an Orthodox Christian, but how does it fit for those who believe in a salvation event?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:


Perfection is something we long for, not something we have already achieved. In the meantime, and as a result, being accounted righteous only through the death of Christ is something I cling to.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

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Originally posted by AdamPater:

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I'm screwed.

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I guess it can't hurt asking Mary to put in a good word then?

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The Virgin praying for the screwed. There's an irony there.

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Thanks. And I was beginning to feel better there for a moment.

Funny thing is that I agree with Gordon on one big point: the only thing I know to do is trust in Christ. Not because I'm hoping I'll be one of the Elect, but because I know there is nothing I can do that would be good enough. I'm a very limited spirit; in fact, I'm crying at this moment at how limited I am. It's like I'm crying, "Mommy!" to God. There is nothing else, because I've fallen short on so many points. I only hope when Jesus comes in Judgement he comes like this.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
Care to elaborate about the relation of time to eternity appreciated since Boethius? (Separate thread?)

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The Catholic Encyclopedia on "Eternity":
The notion is of special interest in helping us to realize, however, faintly, the relations of God to created things, especially with regard to His foreknowledge. In Him there is no before or after, and therefore no foreknowledge, objectively; the distinction which we are wont to draw between His knowledge of intelligence or science or prescience and His knowledge of vision is merely our way of representing things, natural enough to us, but not by any means objective or real in Him. There is no real objective difference between His intelligence and His vision, not between either of these and the Divine substance in which there is no possibility of difference or change. That infinitely perfect substantial intelligence, immense as it is eternal, and withal existing entire and immutable as an indivisible point in space and as an indivisible instant in time, is coextensive, in the sense of being intimately present, with the space-extension and the time-succession of all creatures; not beside them, nor parallel with them, nor before or after them; but present in and with them, sustaining them, co-operating with them, and therefore seeing -- not foreseeing -- what they may do at any particular point of the space-extension, or at any instant of the time-extension, in which they may exist or operate.

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From Summa Theologiae I q14 a13 (re-arranged for easier reading):
Now God knows all contingent things not only as they are in their causes, but also as each one of them is actually in itself. And although contingent things become actual successively, nevertheless God knows contingent things not successively, as they are in their own being, as we do but simultaneously. The reason is because His knowledge is measured by eternity, as is also His being; and eternity being simultaneously whole comprises all time, as said above (Question [10], Article [2]). Hence all things that are in time are present to God from eternity, not only because He has the types of things present within Him, as some say; but because His glance is carried from eternity over all things as they are in their presentiality. Hence it is manifest that contingent things are infallibly known by God, inasmuch as they are subject to the divine sight in their presentiality; yet they are future contingent things in relation to their own causes.

Objection 3: Further, everything known by God must necessarily be, because even what we ourselves know, must necessarily be; and, of course, the knowledge of God is much more certain than ours. But no future contingent things must necessarily be. Therefore no contingent future thing is known by God.

Reply to Objection 3: Things reduced to act in time, as known by us successively in time, but by God (are known) in eternity, which is above time. Whence to us they cannot be certain, forasmuch as we know future contingent things as such; but (they are certain) to God alone, whose understanding is in eternity above time. Just as he who goes along the road, does not see those who come after him; whereas he who sees the whole road from a height, sees at once all travelling by the way. Hence what is known by us must be necessary, even as it is in itself; for what is future contingent in itself, cannot be known by us. Whereas what is known by God must be necessary according to the mode in which they are subject to the divine knowledge, as already stated, but not absolutely as considered in their own causes. Hence also this proposition, "Everything known by God must necessarily be," is usually distinguished; for this may refer to the thing, or to the saying. If it refers to the thing, it is divided and false; for the sense is, "Everything which God knows is necessary." If understood of the saying, it is composite and true; for the sense is, "This proposition, 'that which is known by God is' is necessary."

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I only hope when Jesus comes in Judgement he comes like this.

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With a loony goat? Now, how would that help?

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Originally posted by Riccardus:
I think the general medium-sized-c catholic* position is that we are supposed to respond to God insofar as we are able to. E.g. at the most basic level everyone is aware of some concept of Good, and since we believe that God=Good, our response to our awareness of good is a kind of response to God.

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Well for once, I am going to be the one arguing for complexity.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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I'm screwed.

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<sigh> I'm with you there, Lyda Rose!

I honestly can't say I'm any the wiser after all these posts.

Think I'll just go on doing my best, talking to God, (even if he doesn't say much) and hoping all will become clear at the end.

[ 23. January 2006, 08:54: Message edited by: Nicodemia ]

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
A pertinent question, methinks, is:

Is God looking for reasons to condemn, or reasons to save?

I think considering this question sheds a certain amount of light.

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Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:

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Originally posted by Riccardus:
I think the general medium-sized-c catholic* position is that we are supposed to respond to God insofar as we are able to. E.g. at the most basic level everyone is aware of some concept of Good, and since we believe that God=Good, our response to our awareness of good is a kind of response to God.

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Fair enough -- but that makes a nonsense of justification by faith, doesn't it? If faith is an expression of God's grace, then how is God's grace expressed in those people with no opportunity for faith? By moral character? Doesn't that take us back to Pelagius?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

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Originally posted by Freddy:
The one that says that Jesus offers unconditional forgiveness without repentance and regardless of how we live.

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Oh, OK, ta. But did I say at any point that the offer of unconditional forgiveness occurs without these things? The offer of unconditional forgiveness precedes repentance and changed life, to be sure. But it also anticipates and produces repentance and changed life. If God forgives you unconditionally, you live a different life. IIf he doesn't, you don't.

I don't think Jesus (or Paul for that matter) expected any less than a complete turnaround in the lives of those who accepted God's free offer of forgiveness.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
This is mostly based on a commentary of Aquinas that I read - I suspect IngoB will soon tell me where I'm wrong, and I suspect the Orthodox may see it a bit differently.

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Originally posted by IngoB:
It's a perfectly orthodox (Orthodox, who knows...) belief which however only makes sense if one adopts the pre-Ockham "classical" idea of freedom. For somebody is bound to ask you soon where there's any choice in all this... Good luck argueing about that.

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Oh no, much better to leave that to the experts ...

One question though: granted the pre-Ockham definition of freedom, what is it that God cannot / does not violate if we don't become quiescent in will?

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
This, AIUI, leaves the options of actively choosing to want to be evil - ie resisting God - or not choosing at all but being "quiescent" in will. In the first case God cannot force us without violating our ability to choose; but in the latter case He can, by His grace, infuse in us a desire to be good, which is a form of faith.

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How does this square with Edmund Burke's saying: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Or does being "quiescent" involve actively resisting - as you are led by God to do so?

In which case how do you tell if you are being "quiescent" or taking matters into your own hands?

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

Actually in that last reading from Revelation, there is a clue to just this because of the mention of the "book of life", where (if your name is written) you will certainly be spared from the lake of fire. And how do you get into that book of life? (the $64 question) According to John earlier in Revelation 13:8, this happens before the foundation of the world.

If our names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, it follows that our entrance into the Heavenly city can't possibly be because of any decision we've made, or anything we've done, whether good or evil.

What a delightful assurance for a sinner like me!

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the answer is that "quiescence" refers to our will's response to moral imperatives, not to our actions. So if there is a moral imperative for us to do something, then by doing nothing we are actively resisting that moral imperative. If we are quiescent with regard to that moral imperative, then we do something.

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Originally posted by Manda:
How do you know if you're predestined??

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the answer is that "quiescence" refers to our will's response to moral imperatives, not to our actions. So if there is a moral imperative for us to do something, then by doing nothing we are actively resisting that moral imperative. If we are quiescent with regard to that moral imperative, then we do something.

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So I guess that it involves a certain amount of guesswork as to which it is in any particular situation.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the answer is that "quiescence" refers to our will's response to moral imperatives, not to our actions. So if there is a moral imperative for us to do something, then by doing nothing we are actively resisting that moral imperative. If we are quiescent with regard to that moral imperative, then we do something.

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So I guess that it involves a certain amount of guesswork as to which it is in any particular situation.

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I think that would be looking at the question back-to-front. If we do good works it is by the grace of God, and so we are being quiescent to His will. So we can tell if we are being quiescent if we know we are in fact doing good works.

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Umm. And you're not seeing the flaw in that logic?

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
But I'm not sure I've understood your question properly. What would "taking matters into your own hands" mean?

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Originally posted by Freddy:
Do I just go with my heart and assume it is grace? Do I try hard to decide fairly in each case? Do I fumble mechanically through the process and assume it doesn't really matter what I do?

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What I'm saying is that I would prefer to think that I am making real choices, from God's grace, and attribute the power for good to God and the power to do evil to myself or to hell.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:

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Originally posted by Freddy:
What I'm saying is that I would prefer to think that I am making real choices, from God's grace, and attribute the power for good to God and the power to do evil to myself or to hell.

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That's probably not far from the position I'm trying to argue. The caveat is that if you choose good, the only bit that is really controlled by you is the decision not to resist God's will. The decision to positively embrace God's will is itself a manifestation of God's will.

The "real choice" that is controlled by you is between resistence / not-resistence.

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I have been thoroughly confused for years by the faith-and-grace versus works dichotomy. On the one hand I believe that anything that brings us to salvation/reconciliation starts with God. But where do works come in? Are they an automatic out-pouring of the gifts of the Spirit? Are they a loving response to the Love that found us first? Are they part of contrition for our previously sorry selves?

Jesus says that he is the fulfillment of the Law. Paul says he no longer lives under the Law. Yet the NT is full of precepts, admonishments, and rebukes for things done and left undone, seemingly numerous rules and regulations, most reiterating aspects of the Law. It reads like the Law all shined up with a new coat of paint.

<snip>

What if good deeds don't seem to be arising like a fountain from our salvation, if we "try" to make good deeds happen are we just faking it, are they not real good deeds? Does that mean we are the goats who cry "Lord! Lord!" yet aren't up to snuff? Or if we don't live under the Law are we doomed by "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"? And if Grace cancels out that hard fate, why did Jesus state he requires such conduct?

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I'm going to give my opinion here, and stress strongly that it is my opinion only. It's been formulating over the last several years thinking over the matter, reading, talking, meditating, etc. I think there are firm roots for the position in Scripture and in various "heretics" of history, too, but I'll get to the point.

Two premises provide the foundation for my position.

1) We desperately want to save ourselves.

2) "Good works," or acts of love, or whatever you want to call them, are the foundation for the best way of living and experiencing life, as God created it.

Upon "Preview post," I realize this is extremely long. I've gone though and bolded the most important parts if you would rather just skim.

It is my belief that God created us to enjoy him--distinctly NOT to worry about choosing good over evil, etc. I believe that pre-fall (literally or metaphorically, whichever) we simply chose good naturally, without thought. That's what I believe it meant to taste the fruit of the "Knowledge of Good and Evil"--prior to this big mistake we didn't know what they were and had no need to at all.

We wanted knowledge of good and evil so that we could choose good, because we thought we were capable of doing so. God, however, had forbidden us to know because HE knew he hadn't created us with this capacity. His original plan had always been for him to be the one to know what good and evil were, and to choose good things for us to choose between. But we, in our desire to "be like God" to put it one way, wanted to choose for ourselves. Sadly, we weren't created to be able to do this very well. Cue the next several thousand years of mistakes.

But God in his great love for us did not rob us of our hearts' newest desire--and he allowed us to attempt to choose good over evil, and to fail. He even provided the perfect outline of how to do so, calling it the Law. We all know how that worked out for the Hebrews.

After a few of those thousand years of trying and failing, God had seen enough, and decided to give us Grace in the form of Jesus (means God Saves). Naturally, we hated the idea, and killed him. It was an insult to our ability to save ourselves. We don't need your damn charity, God, we're fine thankyouverymuch.

So Jesus spends a LOT of time talking about how our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees--because if we want to save ourselves like we say we do then that is what God requires. Those who are not capable of this may be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but still their in the Kingdom, right? And didn't Jesus also say, "The last shall be first," and "Whatever you've done for the LEAST of these," and "I have not come for the healthy but for the sick"? Grace is freely given to all. The works required for salvation that Jesus alludes to are, in my opinion, hyperbole on Jesus' part to illustrate the direness of the situation and to illuminate why it was necessary for him to come and offer Grace, even if it was an insult to our pride.

But my second premise above then illuminates the nature of "good works," I think. Because, just as we love our children dearly and would never reject them, we still ask them to do things for us. Our love for them and our willingness to save them no matter what does not depend on their taking out the trash, but we ask them to do so because it makes the household run smoothly, and it teaches the child about life and how to best live. God gives us things he still wants us to do, not because our salvation depends on it, but because this life matters.

We're not just trying to get to heaven. We're trying to live in such a way that brings out a manifestation of the great Grace which God has provided to us all.

Again, just my semi-formulated and rather long-winded opinion.


-Digory

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Originally posted by Freddy:
I assume that the effort is really God's, but it appears to be mine. I am obliged, I assume, to put in as much effort as I reasonably can.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:

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Originally posted by Freddy:
I assume that the effort is really God's, but it appears to be mine. I am obliged, I assume, to put in as much effort as I reasonably can.

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I suppose so, with the caveats that our actual contribution is fairly passive, and it's never too late to repent.

Of course this is all a bit abstract. It may well be that what psychologically feels like effort is quiescence. It may well be that I don't know what I'm talking about...

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You sound pretty on-top-of-it to me!

I like the idea that what feels like effort is really quiescence.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
God gives us things he still wants us to do, not because our salvation depends on it, but because this life matters.

We're not just trying to get to heaven. We're trying to live in such a way that brings out a manifestation of the great Grace which God has provided to us all.

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