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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Styx: S o F Denominational Representation
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Trudy Scrupmsious wrote on the 7th Day Sabbath thread:
quote:
It's so rare anyone raises a question in Purgatory that I actually know something about. I spend most of my time as a Purg host reading through pages and pages about arcane Anglican practice and politics and feeling like I didn't get the memo, so it's hard to restrain myself when the rare topic comes up in which I have been well-schooled. [Smile]
That made me wonder how the denominations are represented on the Ship.
It seems the highest proportion of posters are Anglicans or ex-Anglicans.
But worldwide Anglicans are quite small.
Why is this? How can a better variety be encouraged?
[ 10. February 2014, 18:05: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
What is a "better variety"? And if there is one, why should it be encouraged? Folks select themselves for all sorts of reasons - a capacity to promote and cope with unrest might have something to do with it. I think the place has a substantial number of nonconformists (small "n"), regardless of religious or denomination affiliations. But then, I suppose I would think that ...
I've got a feeling that denom affiliations were surveyed in a thread at one time, but I can't remember where or when.
[ 17. October 2009, 10:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
In UK terms the ship is disproportionately Anglican, liberal and liturgical. The two biggest gaps are charismatics and Roman Catholics. The complete absence of the former is fascinating given the influence of charismatic Christianity in the wider church and the presence of an active evangelical minority on the ship. I don't want to stereotype charismatics, but this might reflect anti-intellectual tendencies. IME open or conservative evangelicals are much more inclined to approach faith intellectually and the ship is much more intellectual than the norm. I think the extent to which shipmates tend to be actively committed to a particular tradition is also unrepresentative. Most Christians I know IRL float happily from one denomination to another, but shipmates tend to be very definitely Anglican or Lutheran or Methodist or whatever.
I'm not sure there's anything you can do to change the ship's Anglican bent. As a non-Anglican I find it both interesting (in that its teaches me about another tradition) and sometimes annoying (the tendency to assume that whatever Anglicans do is The Norm, all those 'Whither Anglicanism' threads). On balance its confirmed me in my non-Anglicanism, even if I've come across some interesting Anglican thinking I might have missed otherwise.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
The two biggest gaps are charismatics and Roman Catholics. The complete absence of the former is fascinating given the influence of charismatic Christianity in the wider church and the presence of an active evangelical minority on the ship.
Not true. I think you mean the charismatic&trade stereotype. I'm not sure if you mean US charismatics - within the UK, charismatics are much more theologically diverse than the stereotype would indicate.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
And there are many of us who belong to rites which give obedience to the Roman Pontiff, From time to time we're very vocal. Even if, sometimes, we get washed away by other ecclesial communities who use the same terminology*. And within the Catholic church there are those of us who are conservative in practice, liberal in social issues, liberal in practice, liberal in social issues, or whatever number of combinations you can think of. And we co-exist, for the most part, happily.
*not saying that's a bad thing, just confusing.
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Even more so than I was before
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
The two biggest gaps are charismatics and Roman Catholics. The complete absence of the former is fascinating given the influence of charismatic Christianity in the wider church and the presence of an active evangelical minority on the ship.
Not true. I think you mean the charismatic&trade stereotype. I'm not sure if you mean US charismatics - within the UK, charismatics are much more theologically diverse than the stereotype would indicate.
I'm a little confused. If you mean that I'm stereotyping charismatics as evangelical, then thats just because almost all the charismatics I've met IRL would identify themselves as such. If its the stereotype of charismatics as anti-intellectual then 'mea culpa'. It would be more accurate to say that charismatic Christianity is more experiential, something which doesn't always fit with the kind of rather abstract intellectualism you tend to get in Purg. As for charismatics being underrepresented on the ship, I just know that IME people who self-identify as charismatic are much rarer on the ship than they are in the wider church.
Pete, I was thinking more of the UK when mentioning RCs. Given that more people apparently worship with the Roman Catholics than with the Anglicans on the average Sunday morning in England*, its surprising there aren't more English RCs on board.
*I haven't got time to dig up the stats now, but vaguely remember the brief flurry of interest in the media about this a year ago.
[ 17. October 2009, 11:01: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
What is a "better variety"? And if there is one, why should it be encouraged?
My answers to that Barnabas are
1) A better variety is a wider range of viewpoints and denominations. Better in that we hear different opinions outlooks and traditions.
2) It should be encouraged to make our experience here more rich, more interesting and more inclusve.
Of course the Ship will focus on certain issues as long as certain voices predominate, fringe issues will be mocked or rubbished making it difficult for some to express there views.
I am intrigued as to why the proportion of RCs isn't higher. I'm also intrigues as to why the proportion of US contributors isnt higher - or other English speaking countries...
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Yerevan
"The complete absence (of charismatics)" simply overstated the case, that's all. Speaking as one ...
Of course you are right that folks whose emphasis on experience is a "be all and end all" don't tend to stick around here. But hear the words of a veteran of renewal in the UK, Ken McGreavy. A gentle, thoughtful and quiet man.
"All word, no spirit; dry up
All spirit, no word; blow up
Spirit and word together; grow up"
Plenty like him about, interested in growing up, not swinging from the chandeliers. [No matter how much joy may be got that way.] Some of them on board here.
But it was just a tangent.
Eddy
Do you have a marketing proposal?
[ 17. October 2009, 11:29: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Um how do you know - on an English language website - that the proportions of Canadians and other English speakers isn't high? Not everyone mentions their geographical location. Nor do they care to do so.
And the US contingent not participatory? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
The above to Eddy.
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Even more so than I was before
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I should make it clear that I wasn't complaining in my comment, just stating the facts as I see them. I think there is quite a bit of diversity of views on the Ship, one of the reasons I enjoy it so much, but as far as demoninations go there is definitely a preponderance of Anglicans and a lot of Anglican-centric discussions. I think all anyone could do to broaden the representation is name-drop the Ship in conversation with interesting people of different backgrounds who we think might enjoy it and have something to contribute here -- which I do constantly in discussions with intereting and opinionated SDAs, but so far, no-one's ever taken the bait.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Barnabas62. Thanks for that. As it happens I'm quite interested in charismatic Christianity and am intending to learn more about it, so I don't want to be unfair.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Sorry, if you're not Anglican then your post button is disabled.
OK, only joking ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) - as far as I'm aware (and, being Anglican, there may be something they're keeping from me) nobody is prevented from either starting a thread or posting whatever denomination, churchmanship or religion they are. So if you want other views represented, I suggest you get out there and post them. Perhaps if only a few more Methodist, Baptist, Hindu, Jedi people post then it will encourage others. I'm sure all we Anglicans would benefit from your insights. But it's not going to happen if other denominations curl up in the corner and act all timid and hurt. Be bold. Be brave. Show us what you're made of. Dare you. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
(Meanwhile, if you're truly interested in SoF representation, you could start a poll in the Circus to find out - we haven't had one of those in a while, and the ship's composition may well have changed in the meantime. Put a link in your sig. to encourage everyone to contribute.)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Well, I've been waving my Methodist flag for a while and I imagine I will carry on doing so...
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
That made me wonder how the denominations are represented on the Ship.
It seems the highest proportion of posters are Anglicans or ex-Anglicans.
But worldwide Anglicans are quite small.
Why is this? How can a better variety be encouraged?
Gee, I'm sorry some of you guys are threatened by those questions! I was just wondering.
Its not about how many denominations shipmates belomng to. I'm asking why is there a heavy focus on Anglican questions.
Of course the two are related. The fact is I guess there are more RCs in the US than members of the Church of England, but the C or E is most talked about here - or has a high proportion.
My point I guess is the worldwide distribution of Christians and their denominations - the ratios- isn't reflected in the mebership here. Its an observation not a criticism.
I think a bigger range of views and opinions would help, and stop so much of the in house bickering we get, and stop some people dissing whole denominations or their practices.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Well, I've been waving my Methodist flag for a while and I imagine I will carry on doing so...
I'm waving my English Catholic and English Charismatic flag here too...
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thats great seasick and Max. and please get more like yourselves.
And where are the Unitarians, Baptists, Independant Church followers... There'll be some here I know lets encourage them to speak up.
And the modern alt.worship crew - it would be super to have much more of that in ecclesiantics too.
I'd love to hear more of 'Fresh Expressions' worship
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Hmmm maybe the ship is a bad influence?
I started off Vineyard/emerging church post-evo charismatic...
... and now I'm Anglican (although very low church Anglican).
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Eddy said:
Thats great seasick and Max. and please get more like yourselves.
Impossible - I'm unique.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Gee, I'm sorry some of you guys are threatened by those questions! I was just wondering.
I don't think any of us are threatened by you asking. Are we?
I'm all for variety, but would prefer people do that voluntarily, rather than feel they must.
All may, some should, none must? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Eddy,
Despite its Anglican/liberal bias the ship is incredibly diverse. Just about everyone's represented here...Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Independent Evangelical. I would have no experience of (for example) the Orthodox or Lutheran traditions without the ship. Now for the 'but'...
Chorister's right up to a point. The best way to have more non-Anglican threads is to start them, but it isn't always quite that simple. Even non-Anglican specific discussions sometimes happen within a set of assumed parameters that are inaccessible to anyone who isn't Anglican or Anglican-literate. To take one silly example, the universal assumption that all clergy work insane hours was very surprising to a Baptist like me (and shocking...my heart bleeds for Anglican ordinands ). I've found myself learning a whole Anglican 'language' to get the most out of the ship. Here it might help to remember that new shipmates reading general threads aren't always going to know what a PCC is for example. And the fact that the ship is pretty Anglican/liturgical is sometimes an inhibitor on starting new threads....you don't bother because you assume not many people would be interested. I'm not actually too bothered about the above personally, as I quite like using the ship as my one stop shop window on Anglicanism. I could imagine non-Anglicans newbies finding it a bit too much though.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I've never had the impression that there are more active posters from the UK than from elsewhere, but I seldom pay attention to exactly how many are from where.
Judging from the Mystery Worship reports, the Anglican Communion in all its geographical locations is favored, followed by the Roman Catholic Church throughout the world. Methodists, Lutherans and Presbyterians also make a strong showing. Independent evangelicals are not exactly under-represented either. It seems that Orthodox churches in all their territorial flavors are, however, under-represented.
I don't recall seeing very many (if any) reports from these churches:
A.M.E. or A.M.E. Zion (and I'd love to see one)
Salvation Army (not in a very long time)
Church of the Nazarene (again not in a very long time)
Seventh Day Adventist (only one that I can recall -- mine!)
Mennonite (again, only mine!)
That branch of the Baptist church peculiar to the Southeastern United States known as "Free Will Baptist"
Not the independent evangelical megachurches, but rather the tiny store-front independent evangelical churches.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I'm not sure the range of MW reports can be set as a guidepost for the threads in Ecclesiantics, 'cos it seems to me that some guys and perfectly and rightly, like to go to different and interesting places to MW - and dont they just!
Now Yerevan says:
quote:
Despite its Anglican/liberal bias the ship is incredibly diverse. Just about everyone's represented here...Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Independent Evangelical. I would have no experience of (for example) the Orthodox or Lutheran traditions without the ship. Now for the 'but'...
Chorister's right up to a point. The best way to have more non-Anglican threads is to start them, but it isn't always quite that simple. Even non-Anglican specific discussions sometimes happen within a set of assumed parameters that are inaccessible to anyone who isn't Anglican or Anglican-literate.
I'm not sure just how worldwide diverse the ship is. It does seem to have a bias to liberal intelligent folk. It has an Anglican bias.
Some customs and traditions do have scorn poured on them. There seems a hesitancy for some folk to speak up - and some if they do get shot right down and ground down! Like look at the discussion on lay celebration, the Anglicans on here - or most of them, simply couldnt cope with it and let everyone know in strong terms. But then so what - many churches could cope with it - but it was hopeless saying that.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Please clarify what Ship's Business is intended here, or we'll be moving this discussion to Purgatory.
-RooK
Non-Anglican Styx Host
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Ship's business:
How do we get a wider range of contributions?
How do we encourage new members from different traditions, especially none C of E or ex-C of E people?
How do we encourage people with opinions very different from Anglicanns to feel confident to post?
Not sure if thats business for here or Purgatory. Please advise. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067
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Posted
How to increase forum turnover is easy - advertise. You paying?
As to why there are so many CoE people, isn't that more due to the UK location of the largest number of posters?
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
How to increase forum turnover is easy - advertise. You paying?
As to why there are so many CoE people, isn't that more due to the UK location of the largest number of posters?
Thats just too easy to say!
Specifically inviting people to contribute / comment would be just as good as advertising.
The second question is just circular, I'm sorry to say because the next question is 'Why are the largest number of posters from the UK?' And don't forget that there are just as many RCs worshipping in the UK as Anglicans.
No, I appeal to the hosts to consider the C of E bias and see if they can encourage wider contributions, and membership.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Ship's business:
How do we get a wider range of contributions?
How do we encourage new members from different traditions, especially none C of E or ex-C of E people?
How do we encourage people with opinions very different from Anglicanns to feel confident to post?
I don't see these as crucial issues. There are any number of other religion discussion boards on the Internet, and each has its special character.
Let the Ship be the Ship. It isn't all things to all people, and why would anyone want it to be?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Eddy - you seem to be counting ex-Anglicans as essentially Anglican in some posts and not in others. How does a high number of ex-Anglicans equal a CoE bias? Or should that be an Episcopalian bias?
So do ex-charismatics (evangelical or otherwise) count as essentially charismatics? IMHO they are not all that rare.
It seems to me that the proportion of Orthodox here is untypical of the UK and ditto Quakers - though maybe in both cases we punch above our weight.
[ 17. October 2009, 19:03: Message edited by: QLib ]
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Fr W says 'let the ship be the ship' - indeed. I say and let it grow and develop and become even more welcoming and inclusive of lots of opinions.
Lets encourage broad discussion. lets encourage different denominations and even different faiths to contribute. Lets say thank you to the hgosts who encourage this.
My point about ex-Anglicans is that some of them continue to pontificate and give views on how Anglicans should be doing things - but I say they've jumped ship and its a bit of a bl***y cheek to go on about how Anglicans should do liturgy or whatever when you've turned your back on them.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Eddy, I have been thinking about this same issue for quite some time, and I've come to the conclusion that some Christian faithful are taught that it is inappropriate to question the church, point out negatives--even when they are no-brainers, and debate what they have been taught to believe. A similar situation occurs with national patriotism, where people sometimes blindly obey authority because that is what they've been taught, and they think that doing anything else is unpatriotic.
Because of the very fact that the Ship forums mostly center on debate, they are going to attract people who are traditionally ripe for debate:
- People who have advanced degrees
- People who are disenfranchised by something
- People who are Mainline Protestants
- People who are naturally inclined to logorrhea
- People who have nothing better to do with their time
- People who are striving to effect change
- People who like causing a ruckus
- People with philosophy degrees taking a break from checking the want ads online
- (and undoubtedly several I have missed).
I have come to accept the fact that Ship's English heritage is going to mean that Anglicans are dominant. It's okay with me because I have discovered here that Anglicans run the gamut from the lowest of low church to nosebleeders so ridiculously high that they can't go to church because they have yet to find a priest who does it right. (Of course, the vast bulk of worldwide Anglicans are almost identical to the vast bulk of worldwide Lutherans, so I'm not too troubled by the Anglican presence.)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Good thought Martin L.
I still think though that it would be good to get other perspectives involved.
Anglicans from low to high do not actually embrace the whole church, though Anglicans sometimes think they do.
RCs have a wider range of traditional to left wing, of conservative to social activist.
Other demoniations will have a range in different ways as well.
The ship would be bigger and richer if it could develop further from its English Anglican roots.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
No, I appeal to the hosts to consider the C of E bias and see if they can encourage wider contributions, and membership.
So what should the hosts be doing then?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Anglicans from low to high do not actually embrace the whole church, though Anglicans sometimes think they do...RCs have a wider range of traditional to left wing, of conservative to social activist.
All this being your, no doubt authoritative, opinion?
quote:
Other denominations will have a range in different ways as well.
Not sure what this means. quote:
My point about ex-Anglicans is that some of them continue to pontificate and give views on how Anglicans should be doing things - but I say they've jumped ship and its a bit of a bl***y cheek to go on about how Anglicans should do liturgy or whatever when you've turned your back on them.
Except that, if you're talking CoE, you are talking about the Established Church, so I think any Brit is entitled to an opinion. In any case, I (for example) no longer regularly attend, but I have been confirmed, I could start attending regularly again tomorrow, and I reserve the right to have an opinion. If that's OK with you.
You claim to be interested in getting a wider spectrum of opinion on board, but it sounds rather more as if you've got an axe to grind against a particular part of the current spectrum. Though I'm still not clear whether your problem is with Anglicans or ex-Anglicans, or both.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
it seems to me that we have the most open of all "recruitment" styles - anyone can sign up if they follow the 10Cs. are the 10Cs "anglican biased"? of course not.
I came here as an anglican (have since left the church) because I heard about it through word of mouth in my church. I suspect it's the same for many.
Why do you want us to try and recruit those from other traditions? you want more *fill in the blank* types? go find some and tell them about the place.
I believe that some traditions are uncomfortable with questioning certain aspects of Christianity and biblical teaching. That why some people find this place uncomfortable and either don't sign up or don't last. I have a very good friend who took a look at this place and found Chapter and Worse so "offensive" that she will not frequent the boards. (AoG, FWIW) that's her call. But I would be very offended if we tried to change who we are as a Ship to try and recruit those from traditions that will not accept the Ship as it is.
they can suck it up and deal or go find a forum that appeals to their beliefs. we can't be everything to everyone. thank God for that.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Thats great seasick and Max. and please get more like yourselves.
And where are the Unitarians, Baptists, Independant Church followers... There'll be some here I know lets encourage them to speak up.
And the modern alt.worship crew - it would be super to have much more of that in ecclesiantics too.
I'd love to hear more of 'Fresh Expressions' worship
Of your last 50 posts, excluding this thread, only three have not been in Eccles (and they were in purg).
Is your issue really about the whole ship, or is Eccles getting to you ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I think many of the points brought up above are in play. I also think the Ship has a liberal bias because Christian websites where liberals are welcome and won't be censored by site admins are not too thick on the ground. Unfortunately, that in turn makes non-liberal shipmates seem ganged up on sometimes. It's a matter of numbers and people who want to get their thoughts out there. Same thing with the Anglican numbers. Say, someone brings up lay presidency, even by people in denominations where the "priesthood of all believers" is an important tenet, and you still have Anglicans spurred to thoughts about their own beliefs.
Another point. The Ship's voyagers are an opinionated lot and aren't afraid to show it. Frankly, a lot of us are rough around the edges and this alarms some people of the more nice-nice Christian persuasions. Hell, it alarms me occasionally. I'm afraid that lots of people who are preached at weekly to "put on a happy face" take a look here and walk away muttering, "ITTWACWS", without ever posting. Eddy is an interesting exception. He's consistently polite and mild-mannered (at least in the posts I've read), yet is persistent and has a thick enough skin to weather a Hell call. Kudos, Eddy! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
But on the other hand, do you ever look at the number of lurkers here at any given time? Often the number is one third or more. Sure, some of them are shipmates with that function turned off. But I think it means there are lots of people reading with secret pleasure our opinionated blather. And occasionally a person with a 2005 registration will gear up and make their first post. And almost always someone will note it and give the newcomer a warm welcome. Although, if they post cheekily in Hell it might be "warmer" than expected. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Basically I don't worry too much about who turns up for the party. People who enjoy it will come and stay; those who won't don't.
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Ceesharp
Shipmate
# 3818
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Posted
I too am english, a charismatic, and Roman Catholic. I don't post much but I visit the Ship most days.
Posts: 629 | From: West Midlands, UK | Registered: Dec 2002
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
I've always enjoyed the discussions, though I don't post on all of them. I would certainly say I've learned a lot, and my favorites list has been enriched by links to websites referenced here. (Fresh Expressions, for example).
Some people's religious traditions are not strong on ecumenism, so it's not surprising to me that they are under-represented here. I find the same in my local clergy association. It's the Episcopalians, RC's, and mainliners who make up the bulk of the group, others never come, or respond to the invitation. I'll echo this thought: let the Ship be the Ship. It's a gift to many of us.
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
Posts: 1031 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Eddy, I found the Ship way back when around year 2000, when I was a proclaimed Buddhist/Baha'i who had years of experience as a Choir Member in Roman Catholic churches.
I've wandered on since then (including actually being baptized and confirmed into the RCC) but always using the Ship as a place to hear people genuinely discuss, debate and explore their personal journeys.
And now I find myself in the process of leaving Christianity, and as always, Shipmates are posting thoughts that I find helpful.
I really don't understand what your problem is. Why is it so important to you that the Ship reflect everything and all of the various Christian experiences? And why do you think it is so important that it not have a somewhat liberal Anglican bias?
Seriously. Why? It is what it is and what is was created to be by the two men who started it and keep it going. Why should your vision replace theirs?
And having been a host for ever so long (MW/Eccles mostly, but with guest stints in Purg and Hell), I have to say that I find your complaint that "the hosts should be doing more to make this site more ecumenical" is both an insult and a piece of crap.
Hosts and Admins can do a bit to steer discussions and vet members, but they always have to work with the people who show up. Contrary to your opinion, they don't have some magical ability to attract certain sorts of members and/or control the topics presented for discussion.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
How do we get a wider range of contributions?
While the basic philosophy is indeed "the more the merrier" on The Ship, I'm not sure I see any way within the remit of the Ship's Crew to affect the propagation of internet memes in a way that causes a significant divergence from the sort of people who are attracted to the Ship currently. Feel free to speculate in Purgatory what various changes to the Ship might mean, but I for one am not in any great hurry to scuttle what we have in order to shift demographics.
quote:
How do we encourage new members from different traditions, especially none C of E or ex-C of E people?
Again, feel free to speculate in Purgatory. I'd be curious how you'd propose a way of steering clear of anything that might be seen to have a selective bias against anyone systematically.
quote:
How do we encourage people with opinions very different from Anglicanns to feel confident to post?
Anglicans all have the same opinions? Seems like a bit of a category error.
-RooK
Styx Host
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
Indeed, if you spend most of your time in Eccles, you will feel surrounded by those to whom the details of liturgy are important. For many groups it doesn't matter how many candles are there are, when they are lit, what bit of tat is used to put them out, or the theological implications of (HORROR!) dripping wax on the floor. These groups won't find Eccles as interesting and will go elsewhere on the ship. That doesn't mean they are necessarily under-represented as shipmates, but they don't feel they have anything to add to liturgical discussions.
Because of the English roots of the website, the liturgically concerned shipmates tend to be Anglican.
As others have pointed out, the fact that the Ship encourages actual discussions about issues, at a relatively intellectual level that makes us reconsider our beliefs and why we hold them, also tends to self-select out groups where questioning Authority (or thinking for oneself) is discouraged. It takes a particular mindset to feel comfortable on the Ship, and there are plenty of alternatives that are less challenging to one's faith. It also requires a bit of being able to laugh at oneself and (especially the excesses of) others that may offend those who believe that religion is very serious. That tends to shift the population more to the liberal side, though we certainly have Shipmates from across the spectrum who are not afraid to express their views and defend them.
And perhaps that is the key point - people are free to express their views, but have to be willing to defend them, and to consider that others may start with the same material and come up with a different interpretation. A handy proof-text that might be sufficient support for your position elsewhere is likely to be met with 5 counter-texts and a discussion about the context and translation of the original Greek. Many of the conservative Christians that I know are not comfortable in that sort of environment.
For myself, what I find most addictive about the Ship is the combination of the quality of the discussions, including respect for the people who hold opposing views, and the ability of the Shipmates to form a close community in spite of those differences. (And the lighthearted humour, too.) Having a range of viewpoints represented is important to achieving that, but a lot of people aren't up to what it demands of them to participate.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Thats great seasick and Max. and please get more like yourselves.
And where are the Unitarians, Baptists, Independant Church followers... There'll be some here I know lets encourage them to speak up.
And the modern alt.worship crew - it would be super to have much more of that in ecclesiantics too.
I'd love to hear more of 'Fresh Expressions' worship
Of your last 50 posts, excluding this thread, only three have not been in Eccles (and they were in purg).
Is your issue really about the whole ship, or is Eccles getting to you ?
Dang, Think² beat me to it. Eddy, the mix is a little broader on the other boards, but they don't necessarily want to discuss liturgy all the time. You want to interact with a wider base of people? Move around the Ship a little more.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Anglicans all have the same opinions? Seems like a bit of a category error.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) & you can say the same for Nonconformists&trade . We're excellent at such co-operative skills as shaking each other by the throat, splitting etc ..
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Some customs and traditions do have scorn poured on them. There seems a hesitancy for some folk to speak up - and some if they do get shot right down and ground down!
If you read some of the other threads on the Styx you'll notice others have raised issues about Ecclesiantics, and the tendancy of a few there to shoot down people posting from a non-tat background. Of course, that's not a denominational issue as the "tat brigade" cross Anglican, RC and Orthodox boundaries - with many other members of those churches on the "non-tat" side receiving the scorn. We've been attempting to change that aspect of Ecclesiantics.
Basically, simply scorning or flaming another person because they're from a different tradition is not on. Robustly challenging the views someone has expressed is fine, although we've had plenty of people here who haven't been able to take such challenges and have left.
On large parts of the Ship, denominational backgrounds are irrelevant. I've never noticed any clear Anglican/non-Anglican divide in discussions on politics, ethics, sport or TV shows. Even in discussions of worship and ecclesiology, the dividing lines rarely (if ever) follow denominational lines.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thanks for that Alan and RooK.
My comments you know are meant to be positive and constructive and I'd love to be seen in that light.
Ecclesiantics can be a problem by the tat folks and some others shooting down others - I agree. Thats maybe a hosting issue as well. The hosts have a helluva job there at times. (And maybe I've cause probs. too). It does seem to be about 5 or 6 folk who persist in the know all everyone else is rubbish approach.
It would be great if we had more and more fresh minds and different outlooks there. I am wondering how that can happen. I've noticed actually some change recently, thats good.
Linking liturgy with life is a good think and not so much ritual notes / percy Dearmer (OMG not him again) stuff!
Eddy
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Eddy,
One problem is that different types of Christian find it hard to talk to each other. To simplify a bit: If you're an evangelical your primarily authority is scripture, whether interpreted on its own terms or within the parameters of evangelicalism. If you're a trad Catholic, Orthodoxen or Anglo-Catholic its tradition, whether filtered through Rome or not. If you're liberal or liberalish then its much much more fluid. All this makes it so hard to have discussions across the boundaries that any fairly intellectual Christian forum is going to gravitate towards one or the other. The ship's mostly 3, with a large dollop of 2 and a much smaller dollop of 1 (which is often dismissed, sometimes unfairly, as 'proof-texting'). I'm really not sure how you change that or if its worth trying. To move away from 3 inevitably IMO means moving closer to 1 or 2, which will just alienate another constituency.
All of which is a roundabout way of saying that its probably impossible to be completely include everyone, because the common ground for discussion just isn't there.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Ecclesiantics can be a problem by the tat folks and some others shooting down others - I agree. Thats maybe a hosting issue as well. The hosts have a helluva job there at times. (And maybe I've cause probs. too). It does seem to be about 5 or 6 folk who persist in the know all everyone else is rubbish approach.
Eddy, of the 147 non-MW threads on Eccles at the moment, you are the OP for 21 (14%).
This means you have a significant impact on what s discussed on Eccles. Now whilst I have noticed you have started one or two OPs outwith your tradition recently - OPs like "November: Month of the Holy Souls" necessarily restrict your likely audience and produce the dynamic you are discussing here. Basically, OPs that are "What do you do on [insert liturgical calendar event] ?" tend to promote primarily descriptive accounts, and then the debate that follows tends to be of the "oh well it ought to be done like this not that" variety. "Why" questions make for more inclusive OPs, that have more chance of involving a wider range of people.
So altering how you OP may help achieve the outcome you are asking for, alternatively read and post on more of the ship - that will give you more interaction with a wider variety of posters.
[ 18. October 2009, 09:59: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thank you Think for that. I can see what you are saying and will give thought and care to how I open threads. I must say I'm a bit horrified to see that I may in fact be responsible for some of the tat backbiting that goes on - if I am I apologice to everyone.
Now folk say other groups than Ecclesiantics on the ship are more broad - I hope Ecclesiantics will broaden out as will - it would be good to learn more and exchange more ideas from different traditions.
I can see the point about people speaking in different ways and so not speakoing across trads. but then surely a common language can be found.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
RooK makes a good point when he says that not all Anglicans think alike. I remember arriving in Eccles (I seem to remember it was called something else then - Mystery Worship, perhaps?) - and being fascinated by discussions such as which gin or incense one should use. Or how many times one should ring a bell or clack a crotalus. That is totally outside the experience of many Anglicans as well as other denominations. But, instead of feeling critical towards such discussions, and staying away, I read avidly with voyeuristic interest and eventually found threads where I could contribute something. So a little tenacity on the part of those to whom such things are alien may pay off dividends. You never know.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
I'm an official member of three different denominations - CofE, Methodist, URC, and am an evangelical fairly low Anglo-Catholic by habit but with many friends and linkages to the Quakers, Baptists and Free Churches. Can I count as one of each if I post on a board?!
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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