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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: to whom will God show mercy?
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
those who oppose soul sleep interpret it to mean that the dead are whisked immediately up to heaven or down hell.
Yes, I would interpret it that way. Jesus seemed happy to give the impression that people meet their fate as soon as they die. Of course even if there is "soul sleep" it would seem the same since there is unlikely to be a sensation of intervening time. So it makes no real difference.
But I certainly agree that it is a parable.
With parables, though, the real message is sometimes hard to uncover. This one seems to show God's punishment of the sinner, but I don't think that this is actually how it works.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The original version of this folk tale would have had the rich man in Paradise and Dives in Torment ...
Oh yes, no-one's ever heard of a folk tale in which the poor triumph over the rich. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I'm wondering the same thing. Is there really any evidence of similar stories in which the rich man ends up in Paradise?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
<Tangent>
How about this old guy? Reckon its folksy enough. Mind you he had a problem or two along the way to his riches. Bet those "miserable comforters" died poor and went to hell. Only fitting. Death's too good for the likes of them ....
Yeah, I know it's a bit of a "stretch".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The story of Dives and Lazarus IS a parable.
<snip>
I have always thought of it as a parable.
You know I love you, Muddy. But let me just point out that this is probably the problem with how all of us think about our beliefs.
I have always thought it to be so,
THEREFORE
It is necessarily true.
But on the other hand, this article is great for demonstrating how to set up a magnificent strawman and then wind up and beat it down. In my opinion, of course. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-Digory
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
But on the other hand, this article is great for demonstrating how to set up a magnificent strawman and then wind up and beat it down. In my opinion, of course.
Good point, Digory!
Similarly, in Paul's OP he seems to me to set up quite the strawman with his question:
quote:
When the door is closing and we make our last representations to God, what will invoke His mercy?
The imagery and language are a setup for an argument in which God becomes the obvious bad-cop.
Are we agreed by now that this is not the reality? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I dont think we need to invoke God's mercy. It comes to us by Grace. "Invoke" suggests that he needs to be persuaded by us. Acceptance is not a "doing" in the same way that "invoking" is. Incidentally, I think this is also Orthodox and Catholic. The real high priest at the Mass is not the visible priest. He's just "lending a hand".
I'm not persuaded by the argument that the Dives parable says nothing about the afterlife, but I agree that it is dangerous to read too much into it. PaulTh's typology argument is also, more or less, what my Peake commentary says. The notion that, apart from Grace, we "hellify" ourselves (if I may invent a word) looks pretty sound to me. What subsequently happens is, in the last resort, something we're just going to have to wait to find out.
(professorkirke - "Quirkie" should have read "kirkie" in my previous post. Either way it was a bit rude. My apologies.)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I wanted to start another thread on the Harrowing of Hell, but what I want to say is appropriate to this subject. On this and other threads we.ve discussed how God can allow anyone to suffer eternal damnation. My point is that He can't, but what do dedicated Christians make of this:
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison". (I Peter 3.18-19)
To me this might suggest that the resurrection is a spiritual rather than physical phenomenon, but that provcative though isn't what I'm discussing. The Harrowing of Hell in which Jesus released the spirits from the underworld was a widely held doctrine in the first century. The apocryphal "Gospel of Nicedemus" is composed of the "Acts of Pilate" (chapters 1-17) and "The Descent into Hell" (chapters 17-27). Scholars usyually reckon that the first part dates from about 400AD, but that the second part is much older, coming from around 200AD. While it has no Scriptural value, it reflects a view held in the church at the time which supports I Peter.
This quote is from "Universalism, The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundered Years" written by J.W. Hanson in 1899.
quote:
About a century after the death of John appeared the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus, valuable as setting forth current eschatology. It describes the effect of Christ's preaching in Hades: "When Jesus arrived in Hades, the gates burst open, and taking Adam by the hand Jesus said, "Come all with me, as many as have died through the tree which he touched, for behold I raise you all up through the tree of the cross.'"
This is merely an elaboration of I Corinthians 15.22, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive".
Now I know that many here don't subscribe to universal reconciliation as I do, but can anyone say that its either unscriptural or out of line with the early church when it is supported by I Peter, I Corinthians and early church writings. If the fate of the dead is sealed, what was the Harrowing of Hell about?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Gauk
Shipmate
# 1125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
... what was the Harrowing of Hell about?
I don't think there were any witnesses.
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Now the Sirens have a still more fatal weapon than their song, namely their silence ... it is conceivable that someone might possibly have escaped from their singing; but from their silence certainly never.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
If the fate of the dead is sealed, what was the Harrowing of Hell about?
It is simple.
People who died after Adam were initially quite happy. But as the spiritual state of people on earth deteriorated over the centuries, those who were coming into the spiritual world from earth brought with them their evils. Over time this made the situation in that world worse and worse. By the time of Christ they were suffering, as if in hell.
At His resurrection Christ released them, and reordered the spiritual world so that they could not be enslaved again.
It's like "Lord of the Rings."
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
If I recall correctly, the tradition (Scripture doesn't tell us much here) is that all the Old Testament era people, good or bad, believers or not, were in "hell," or more accurately "Sheol." In other words, it was a kind of waiting room, a kind of prison, even, but not the full-fledged "sinners on a barbecue" image we get from the word today. Read up on Sheol and you'll see what I mean.
Some of those people were Paradise bound on account of their faith. But according to this tradition, they could not actually enter Paradise until Christ himself opened the doors through his death on the cross.
That, then, would be what the Harrowing of Hell was about--a replaying of the Exodus from slavery in Egypt, but on a cosmic scale. Christ stands before hell, the gates burst asunder, and Christ leads his newly freed people in triumph out of hell and into Paradise. And Adam and Eve traditionally go first as the representatives of the whole fallen human race which Christ has now redeemed.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
Dearest PaulTH-
Your question is a puzzling one! More important than what various churches say or teach seems to be what the Bible says.(IMHO)
After reveiwing John 3:16 it seems quite simple.
Yet after reading Matt 7:21, maybe not...
Perhaps Pr. 16:4 says all that we need to know about it.
Romans says that narrow is the way, many will not be "able" and that few are "chosen".
It may well be that it is'nt worth worrying about to begin with.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What I make of this: I Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison - Paul, is - 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Jesus preached to the demons in tartaroo during the Flood. He didn't preach to any one while He was in oblivion for three nights and three days.
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Love wins
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
That, then, would be what the Harrowing of Hell was about--a replaying of the Exodus from slavery in Egypt, but on a cosmic scale. Christ stands before hell, the gates burst asunder, and Christ leads his newly freed people in triumph out of hell and into Paradise. And Adam and Eve traditionally go first as the representatives of the whole fallen human race which Christ has now redeemed.
I agree with that, but don't the sinners who died after Christ get the same benefit of his universal mercy as Adam and Eve?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Good question PaulTH.
The logical answer appears to be "Only if they haven't had the opportunity to avoid this by taking Route 1".
There is even more interesting logic here (apart from the "obvious" conclusion that evangelism should be forbidden, for if unsuccessful, the hearer is condemned to eternal punishment, whereas if they don't hear, here comes the cavalry when all seems lost....).
Suppose some of the spirits in prison decide thisaway. "No, we like it here. Its our choice and, even if painful and confusing now, we arent leaving just 'cos You say so! There is such a thing as free will you know". That remind you of anybody?
OK, that is just a bit of fun really; but you can push logic too far in this area.
[ 11. September 2005, 20:58: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(professorkirke - "Quirkie" should have read "kirkie" in my previous post. Either way it was a bit rude. My apologies.)
No need. I could never be offended by you, "Barnie."
-Digory (or Kirkie, eh?)
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I agree with that, but don't the sinners who died after Christ get the same benefit of his universal mercy as Adam and Eve?
I've thought about a similar question for a few years, Paul. It goes right along with yours.
If people like Adam and Eve and Abraham will end up in heaven, it means that they made it there without "accepting Jesus" in this life. This, to me, says it is possible to end up in heaven this way--that there are ways of being saved by Christ that do not involve traditional understandings of salvation.
Saying that it was different then, before Jesus, isn't enough for me. If it's possible at any time to receive salvation without ever mentioning the name of Christ, then it's possible at all times. IMO.
-Digory
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Bonaventura
Wise Drunkard
# 1066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
If people like Adam and Eve and Abraham will end up in heaven, it means that they made it there without "accepting Jesus" in this life. This, to me, says it is possible to end up in heaven this way--that there are ways of being saved by Christ that do not involve traditional understandings of salvation.
Saying that it was different then, before Jesus, isn't enough for me. If it's possible at any time to receive salvation without ever mentioning the name of Christ, then it's possible at all times. IMO.
It depends entirely on what you put into the term 'accepting Jesus', whether it is possible to do so unconsciously.
Simone Weil thought that a person running away from the "official Christ" might be running straight towards Christ himself.
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“I think you are all mistaken in your theological beliefs. The God or Gods of Christianity are not there, whether you call them Father, Son and Holy Spirit or Aunt, Uncle and Holy Cow.” -El Greco
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonaventura:
It depends entirely on what you put into the term 'accepting Jesus', whether it is possible to do so unconsciously.
Yes, yes. This is exactly my point. If it is possible to do unconsciously, then you open up salvation to a much wider audience, and to far less restrictions.
-Digory
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
And that raises another paradox or two. If Christ may be accepted "unconsciously" then maybe he can be rejected "unconsciously" whether here or in Hell (and is it possible to be "unconscious" in Hell in the sense that Bonaventura and, I think professorkirke meant it)
(I should have been a Jesuit. Maybe protestants could do with a Jesuitical order? Hmmn .....).
[ 12. September 2005, 05:15: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(I should have been a Jesuit. Maybe protestants could do with a Jesuitical order? Hmmn .....).
What do you think Calvinists are?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(I should have been a Jesuit. Maybe protestants could do with a Jesuitical order? Hmmn .....).
What do you think Calvinists are?
If Calvinists are the intellectual "devils advocate" defenders of protestantism we're in even more trouble than I think we are. Please don't tell me that in order to be a Jesuitical protestant I would also have to become a Calvinist. Some things are too hard for any man to hear ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If Calvinists are the intellectual "devils advocate" defenders of protestantism
Oh is THAT what you meant by "Jesuitical". Never mind.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
If people like Adam and Eve and Abraham will end up in heaven, it means that they made it there without "accepting Jesus" in this life. This, to me, says it is possible to end up in heaven this way--that there are ways of being saved by Christ that do not involve traditional understandings of salvation.
That's right.
Jesus is "the Way the Truth and the Life" (John 14.6) He came into the world "to bear witness to the truth" (John 1.37). He then said, "Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice" (ibid.).
The important things is to be "of the truth" so that you can hear Jesus' voice - whether in this life or the next. Being "of the truth" means loving God and the neighbor, which is the truth that Jesus came to bear witness to.
Jesus came because people had ceased to love God and the neighbor. He came to restore this love by bringing the light of truth. The point is to take advantage of the human capacity to assimilate information that will change behavior and therefore the will.
In broad terms, the only thing that will change humanity is Jesus. So He said "No one comes to the Father except by Me." But in more particular terms, salvation lies with the individual who is "of the truth," that is, whose life and will is consistent with what Jesus is all about.
Presumably, Adam and Eve, and many good people since the beginning, meet those qualifications.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But Adam and Eve WEREN'T good and neither is any one else conceived by man. "No not one".
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Love wins
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonaventura:
Simone Weil thought that a person running away from the "official Christ" might be running straight towards Christ himself.
Wise lady! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
Posted by Mudfrog
I have never met another evangelical who believed this story to be historical or literal fact.
Suprised that you said this as most evagelical Christian lierature that I have read has stressed that is not a parable
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
And that raises another paradox or two. If Christ may be accepted "unconsciously" then maybe he can be rejected "unconsciously" whether here or in Hell (and is it possible to be "unconscious" in Hell in the sense that Bonaventura and, I think professorkirke meant it)
Good point, Ol' Barny. Always thinking.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If Calvinists are the intellectual "devils advocate" defenders of protestantism
Oh is THAT what you meant by "Jesuitical". Never mind.
Only in this context, MT, only in this context!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
Posted by Mudfrog
I have never met another evangelical who believed this story to be historical or literal fact.
Suprised that you said this as most evagelical Christian lierature that I have read has stressed that is not a parable
I turned immediately to my nearest commentary - published by IVP with contributions from people like JI Packer.
"The Rich man and Lazarus.
Egyptian and Jewish sources have furnished stories similar to this one in describing the reversed fates of rich and poor men in the next world. The parable implies that......"
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Okay, come on people.
Muddy, I'm totally with you on this one. It has almost always been viewed as a parable by the majority of Christian thought. There's not much I'll stick my neck out for these days, but this one seems clear to me. Besides, it's almost beside the point and it's definitely cluttering the real issue of the OP. <end minor rant>
-Digory
[ 12. September 2005, 20:51: Message edited by: professorkirke ]
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Wait, what WAS the OP? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Wait, what WAS the OP?
Ooh!Ooh! I know!
"To whom will God show mercy?"
Answer:
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD..."
Acts 2 v 21, quoting Joel 2.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
"The Rich man and Lazarus.
Egyptian and Jewish sources have furnished stories similar to this one in describing the reversed fates of rich and poor men in the next world. The parable implies that......"
I'd like to hear the end of that. I'm quite sure that JI Packer believes that the parable implies that, at the Final Judgement, God will judge once for eternity and then will show now mercy after that time. That brings us back to the OP. PaulTH asks, "to whom will God show mercy" and the JI Packer answer is "to those who accepted that mercy in this life, prior to death."
After death, there is no more mercy; there is judgment only, according to works and according to faith. Mercy was shown in this life by making available the message of God in the form of Jesus the Son taking on himself the punishment deserved by everyone who incurs God's anger and wrath. The JI Packer position is that God's anger and wrath are not arbitrary and capricious; they are directed at sinners who reject the sacrifice of Christ in remission for their sins.
Barrea perhaps did not speak exactly. I don't think he meant that "evangelicals" or fundamentalists insist that the parable in Luke is an actual historical event that happened in the past or an exact event that will take place in the future. But it is certainly presented as an indication that:
1. At some point, God's mercy ends and is replaced by judgment. No more mercy after that; hope is gone and the damned are doomed to suffer punishment eternally in a painful state of some kind.
2. For some, the judgment of God will be a wrath, anger, and punishment severe beyond human comprehension because God's insistence on sinlessness is beyond comprehension and his anger and wrath for sinfulness is beyond comprehension as well.
You can google JI Packer and get the idea. If you read Evangelical Affirmations, you will see that Packer took on John Stott when Stott argued that annihilationism is the "eternal punishment" that will be received after judgment. Packer argues that the punishment is literally unending, and therefore (my words now) "with mercy no longer available, mercy having been offerred for a limited time only and via one mechanism only."
I could be hearing him through my old Pentecostal ears, but I don't think so.
[ 12. September 2005, 21:17: Message edited by: JimmyT ]
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The Rich man and Lazarus.
Egyptian and Jewish sources have furnished stories similar to this one in describing the reversed fates of rich and poor men in the next world. The parable implies that the rich man did scarcely anything to alleviate the beggar's distress. When the latter died, he found a place of honour beside Abraham, the father of the Jewish race and the friend of God. The rich man foundhimself in Hades in torment and agony. He called upon Abraham as 'father' for mercy, but the reply of Abraham, though it called him 'son', offered no hope. Thus far the story follows traditional lines, but now there is a fresh element. Could the rich man's brothers, presumably rich and careless themselves, be warned before they reached Hades? the reply was that the teaching they possessed in the OT should be enough. Not even the miracle of somebody returning from the dead to warn tme would have any effect on those who had shut their ears to te voice of God in the Scriptures. Failure to practice the love and mercy taught in the OT will lead to loss in the next life.
It is a moot point whether the parable is intended to give literal information about the next world, and, if so, whether it refers to an intermediate state before the final judgment or to a lasting state. But, although the language (e.g Abraham's bosom) is surely symbolical, it speaks of real destinies for men.
The imagery expresses with all clarity the irreversibility of God's verdict upon men.
IH Marshall
[ 12. September 2005, 21:33: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Wait, what WAS the OP?
Ooh!Ooh! I know!
"To whom will God show mercy?"
Answer:
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD..."
Acts 2 v 21, quoting Joel 2.
Perhaps even after death?
-Digory
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Forgive me, JimmyT, who cares what Packer thinks?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Forgive me, JimmyT, who cares what Packer thinks?
Presumable the same people who care what I or you, Mousethief, think. We all deserve a fair hearing and all have an opinion - even if we fundamentally disagree.
JI Packer may not be your type of theologian, but you cannot dismiss his thoughts and simply not care what he thinks.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Forgive me, JimmyT, who cares what Packer thinks?
Who cares what Kallistos Ware thinks? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Yes, Mousethief, Mudfrog brought up Packer quoting that the story is "just a parable" and not a literal story. But I wanted to point out that Packer believes that the point of the story is that mercy goes up to judgment and no further.
No one would care that Packer thinks this, except that Packer stands for the tens of millions of people, some of whom are on The Ship, who think that the lesson to be learned from that parable and from all the imagery of "harvest time" that there will come a point when it is "too late" to be saved from eternal, conscious punishment. It is a serious debate in the very wide evangelical movement. While most of the evangelical Protestant spectrum agrees that the Final Judgment is just that, the "softer" ones argue for annihilation of the damned so that they are eternally punished by not being granted eternal life, but they are not consciously punished or tormented. The "harder" ones say that unfortunately the Bible makes clear, especially in this parable, that the punishment will be experienced eternally in a tormenting fashion.
You know it still irks me when people say this is a "cartoon version" of Hell and "no one really believes it." The Assemblies of God is 50 million strong world wide. Check their "Fundamental Truths" here and you will see:
quote:
WE BELIEVE...A Final Judgment Will Take Place for those who have rejected Christ. They will be judged for their sin and consigned to eternal punishment in a punishing lake of fire.
If you click on the link for that item, you get actual fire and brimstone, which again people say is no longer widely preached.
quote:
There will be a final judgment in which the wicked dead will be raised and judged according to their works. Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, together with the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, will be consigned to the everlasting punishment in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
The people who write these things have PhD's and they will tell you full well that they know the difference between a parable, a prophecy, and an historical event. But their clear interpretation of the object lesson to be found in the New Testament is that mercy goes up to the Final Judgment and ends there. No more mercy later. Period. And Hell will not be empty, it will be quite full containing "all who have rejected Christ." This means specifically:
quote:
Man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Son of God.
Conditions to Salvation
Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God, according to the hope of eternal life.
Note: salvation is conditional. It is not guaranteed.
So it irks me as well that people say the OP is just a straw man. Not if you count 50 million in the Assemblies of God and believe me, they are not alone.
It seems to me that the human writers of the Bible really thought the end of the world was coming in their literal lifetime or very, very soon afterward and that there would be anger, wrath, judgement and unending conscious torment of the damned from what I read. I don't see how you can read their intent any other way. You might argue whether Jesus really said all those things or whether they were put in his mouth by Bible writers (I think some of that happened), and you might say that God didn't really dictate that to the writers and their human beliefs got in the way (I believe that also). But I don't see how you can say that the Bible writers were really trying to say that Hell will be empty because everyone will be saved and restored through mercy, or that they will have more chances at salvation after the "Final" judgment.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I never said that Packer wrote the quote I gave.
I said he was merely one of the contributors to a commentary I quoted, to show that it was an evangelical commentary.
I actually put the name of the author (I Marshall)at the bottom of the full quote which I presume you read.
The Packer stuff is therefore irrelevant.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Actually, I think I rather agree with Mudfrog on this one (shock, horror). Whilst I totally agree with JimmyT that a substantial sector (though not a majority) of ConEvo thought is that eternal punishment (that is, punishment which continues for ever) is the fate of those who reject (whatever that means) Christ in this life, this specific parable is rarely used to support that position, probably for two reasons.
Firstly, if you accept the parable as prophecy, you then have to deal with the associated suggestion that a persons salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone, and secondly, the language used is just too problematic. There is no mention of God, nor of heaven as such. It is as if Jesus is deliberately trying to distance himself from a literal interpretation by using metaphor.
The whole thing sounds like the retelling, with added touches, of an existing religious story already well known to his listeners. Every time I have heard this passage expounded by evangelical preachers, the emphasis has been on verses 30-31 quote:
30" ... if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
The point of such an exposition is thus that even the threat of the direst consequences is not enough to make people behave in a way that is acceptable to God. Thus, only the supernatural renewing power of the Holy Spirit is able to change our selfish nature. We cannot do it in our own strength, not even to escape so terrible a fate as described.
[ 13. September 2005, 09:21: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I think JimmyT makes the excellent point that it isn't just a few hotheads who push this eternal punishment line but millions of Christians who follow the teachings of those like Packer. In fact though there have been notable universalists, many in the early centuries of Christianity, eternal punishment is and always has been mainstream Christianity among Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox. This is why I cannot be an orthodox Christian.
Among the religions of the world, only Islam, as far as I am aware, can compete with Christianity in nastiness. At some points in its history, some voices within Judaism such as the writers of the apocryphal book of Enoch from which Christianity derives much of its theology, believed in eternal punishment, but it isn't part of mainstream Judaism. The Eastern religions have no such doctrines. But the desire to save people from this fate is what makes Christianity and Islam so brutal. Conversion by threat, inqisition or the sword are the sordid facts of European history.
I, for one find it all nauseating. I believe in the oneness of creation and in a merciful God who hates nothing He has made. That can be found in unorthodox interpretations of Christianity or in other philosophies, but the Church doesn't answer those needs.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Gauk
Shipmate
# 1125
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Posted
There is a hymn which goes:
quote:
"Oh God we love Thee, not because
We hope for Heaven thereby."
Whenever I hear it, I think, "you're not fooling anyone".
"If it's anything about a cake, Sir, I don't know anything about a cake, and besides, it was only a small one!" - Bunter
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Now the Sirens have a still more fatal weapon than their song, namely their silence ... it is conceivable that someone might possibly have escaped from their singing; but from their silence certainly never.
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
JI Packer may not be your type of theologian, but you cannot dismiss his thoughts and simply not care what he thinks.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Packer stuff is therefore irrelevant.
Oh, Muddy. You make it so easy!
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
OP: To whom will God show mercy?
A: I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:15
-Digory
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Firstly, if you accept the parable as prophecy, you then have to deal with the associated suggestion that a persons salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone
That seems easy: you say "a person's salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone" with a straight face and you're done.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
secondly, the language used is just too problematic. There is no mention of God, nor of heaven as such. It is as if Jesus is deliberately trying to distance himself from a literal interpretation by using metaphor.
What problem? "The bosom of Abraham isn't good enough to give you a clear picture of 'the place where good people go after they die'?"
What distance? Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." So his words are God's word, right? And his words are that after you're dead, you're screwed when it comes to mercy. The harvest has happened. The fruit has been collected. The trees with no fruit are cursed, never to bear fruit again. It's perfectly in keeping with other things he said from the pen of gospel writers.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
The whole thing sounds like the retelling, with added touches, of an existing religious story already well known to his listeners.
Not to me. The whole thing sounds to me like a confirmation of the obejct lesson of an existing religious story.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
30" ... if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
The point of such an exposition is thus that even the threat of the direst consequences is not enough to make people behave in a way that is acceptable to God.
Verse 31 does not say, "they will not repent no matter how dire the consequences." It says, "they will not repent, no matter how credible the messanger."
The crystal clear message to me is that the gospel writer, Luke, believes that eternal torment is the fate of those who do not live a life of good works. If they have faith and are good Jews or good Christians, but they are selfish, their "faith" is not going to get them into Heaven. Talk is cheap and so is faith. Anyone can say, "I believe whatever I'm supposed to believe. May I please have eternal life even though I couldn't give a rip about my fellow man?" The gospel writer says that these people will have an eternal fate no different from people who have no faith at all, because their faith has not made them better people. Jesus foretold that they would still not listen to him even though he was going to rise from the dead to prove that this message is straight from the mouth of God in human flesh.
Ironically, it is also the clearest indication to Fundamentalists that it doesn't matter for beans if you are Islamic, Christian, Jewish, secular humanist, Pagan, Quaker, or card carrying member of the Church of Satan. So long as you are kind and generous, you are in good shape. If you are unkind and not generous or charitable, it doesn't matter if you believe in the blood of Jesus or flagellate yourself or go to confession and eat a properly consecrated host. You will go to eternal torment and there will be a impassable gulf between you and all the kind, comparing, compassionate, and generous people. You will have squandered your opportunity forever.
I've never heard any Christian of any stripe make that argument, and I think it's too bad. Yeah yeah it conflicts with Paul and Luther but this supposedly came from Jesus did it not?
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Damn. "Kind and caring" not "kind and comparing."
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by JimmyT:
quote:
I've never heard any Christian of any stripe make that argument, and I think it's too bad. Yeah yeah it conflicts with Paul and Luther but this supposedly came from Jesus did it not?
Jimmy, I must give you 100% for that one. Also apart from good works being necessary, it also says that there is nothing essential to salvation which can't be found in Moses and the prophets. Like Mark 12.28-34, Jesus is telling people to be good Jews not that they need a new religion.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Originally posted by JimmyT:
quote:
I've never heard any Christian of any stripe make that argument, and I think it's too bad. Yeah yeah it conflicts with Paul and Luther but this supposedly came from Jesus did it not?
Jimmy, I must give you 100% for that one. Also apart from good works being necessary, it also says that there is nothing essential to salvation which can't be found in Moses and the prophets. Like Mark 12.28-34, Jesus is telling people to be good Jews not that they need a new religion.
I think I agree. It seems to me that the Gospel is for the Jews first - ie the Messiah has come to complete the revelation; and then the Gentiles are invited to become part of this messianic judaism. It seems to be that the early church messed up in the centuries after the apostles died by taking on too much Imperial imagery, too much Greek philosophy, taking too much notice of Augustine, and rejecting the Jewish nature of the Gospel.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
JimmyT quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Firstly, if you accept the parable as prophecy, you then have to deal with the associated suggestion that a persons salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone
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That seems easy: you say "a person's salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone" with a straight face and you're done.
Yes, but the point I am making is that, IME, Evangelicals are unhappy with the idea that we can contibute to our salvation by good works, and so steer clear of such an interpretation. YMMV of course.
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
secondly, the language used is just too problematic. There is no mention of God, nor of heaven as such. It is as if Jesus is deliberately trying to distance himself from a literal interpretation by using metaphor.
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What problem? "The bosom of Abraham isn't good enough to give you a clear picture of 'the place where good people go after they die'?"
If the verse is indeed prophetic, as you suggest Evangelicals believe, then why use this unique turn of phrase? Why not use the terms that He normally uses when speaking of eschatology?
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
The whole thing sounds like the retelling, with added touches, of an existing religious story already well known to his listeners.
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Not to me. The whole thing sounds to me like a confirmation of the obejct lesson of an existing religious story.
Fair enough. I don't read it so, for the reasons I have outlined, but the evangelical circles in which I have moved are not the same as yours, and I believe that my reading of it is quite common. Once again, YMMV.
quote:
Verse 31 does not say, "they will not repent no matter how dire the consequences." It says, "they will not repent, no matter how credible the messanger."
I think that both are implied.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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