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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: to whom will God show mercy?
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
In my recent "struggling with a demon" thread it seems that all those who believe in eternal torment also believe that God would allow it only after doing anything possible to save us. That only if God's mercy fails would He consider banishing anyone to hell. But it is important to know what would be His criteria for a last show of mercy before the door is closed shut.
Many Christians of an evangelical bent would no doubt say that a confession of Christ as saviour would be required. The more Pelagian, Mosaic and Didachean among us might say that He would require that we have striven to do His will and repented where we have fallen short. But I think its important to know what various Christians and their churches teach. When the door is closing and we make our last representations to God, what will invoke His mercy?
[ 21. October 2005, 07:46: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Much as I'm loathe in general to proof-text, in this case I would want to quote Romans 9:15-16.
quote:
For speaking to Moses, he said: I am gracious to those to whom I am gracious and I take pity on those on whom I take pity. So it is not a matter of what any person wants or what any person does, but only of God having mercy.
The mercy of God isn't a put this (whatever "this" is - seeking to do God's will, saying the sinner's prayer, making customary offerings, whatever) in and get mercy out. God will show mercy to whom he will show mercy. There is no mathematical formula to work it out, it is up to God in his love and benevolence, and (dare I say it) in his wrath and judgment.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Much as I'm loathe in general to proof-text,
Ooh! Prooftexting!
I have no such moral qualms, so
quote:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Will it ruin the prooftexting effect if I point out context? Peter is talking about the Lord Jesus. By trusting him, we receive mercy and are saved.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
So Adolf Hitler calls out: "Oh Jesus Christ, save me!" and goes to Paradise. Whereas a merciful, god-fearing, blameless Muslim doctor, who can't bring him/herself to say the words goes to Hell? I don't think so.
As someone on the 'demon' thread said, I think we just have to trust that there will be a perfect resolution of these issues.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
Adolf Hitler
You mentioned Hitler, you lose. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Actually a number of the high-ranking Nazis who were incarcerated before hanging heard the gospel from a prison chaplain, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to meet some of them in heaven. Corrie Ten Boom, who gave shelter to Jews during in Haarlem during WW II, speaks of meeting a concentration camp guard after speaking and offering him forgiveness (in her book The Hiding Place). I can't see that God would fall short of Corrie's standard.
(Her house in Haarlem still operates as a museum by the way, and you can see where Dutch Jews were hidden before their escape).
Still, if you trust Jesus, you will be forgiven. I can't see any other way to escape sin.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Seasick's quote from Roman's 9.16-17 tells us all. It is for God to decide on the full impact of His mercy. We just hope.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Misinterpretation of Godwin's Law, Gordon.
Since you're so fond of proof-texting, I give you
Matthew 7v21: Not everyone who says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of God and, as usual, Matthew 25 v34-46, which to my mind inescapably demonstrate that the blameless Muslim doctor is in and Adolf is out.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Ooh! Prooftexting!
I have no such moral qualms, so
quote:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Will it ruin the prooftexting effect if I point out context? Peter is talking about the Lord Jesus. By trusting him, we receive mercy and are saved.
However, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." [Matthew 7:21]
Neither calling on His name nor "trusting Him" (whatever that may mean) seems to be enough as far as Jesus is concerned. Prooftexting is always problematic, ISTM.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
When the door is closing and we make our last representations to God, what will invoke His mercy?
OK, I confess that I am a conditional universalist.
The door of Hell will slam shut, but the lock is on the inside. Anyone who wants to leave is free to do so. God will not deny the free will given to us.
I believe that in the end, the allure of God's mercy will draw every person to God, and Hell will be left empty.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I forgot about Herr Hitler, the Fuhrer. How do we know he hasn't repented? How do we know we isn't in a form of Purgatory awaiting redemption? How do we know that God hasn't been merciful to him? How do we know that God hasn't snuffed him out to avoid the pain he deserves? The answer is we don't. People, myself included should stop meddling in God's affairs and get on with our work, which is to do His will in the now of our lives.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
So Adolf Hitler calls out: "Oh Jesus Christ, save me!" and goes to Paradise. Whereas a merciful, god-fearing, blameless Muslim doctor, who can't bring him/herself to say the words goes to Hell? I don't think so.
Now this is one thing I really dislike - the emphasis on sin as being things we do.
In Romans 1, for example, the start of sin is when, although people knew God as God, they neither glorify him as God nor give thanks to him.
So the Muslim doctor is not blameless. Did he spend every moment of every day glorifying God and giving thanks to him? Did he worship God, as God revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ? No.
Did I? No.
Did any of us? No.
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Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I appreciate that sin isn't always about doing stuff but AFAIC if arranging to have millions of people slaughtered is less sinful than not constantly giving Glory to God (and how did you know the Muslim doctor didn't? Oh, he used the wrong name.) then the whole thing's just a stupid joke.
I've never read anywhere that we have to spend our lives explicitly giving glory to God - how would anything ever get done?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
I've never read anywhere that we have to spend our lives explicitly giving glory to God - how would anything ever get done?
Which reminds me of that line—"You can't have everything. Where would you put it?"
You seem to be advocating salvation by works, Qlib. Do enough good, or at least, comparatively better than that nasty person over there, and you're in.
But it doesn't work, because the standard of behaviour in heaven is perfection, which is decidedly uncomfortable for anyone who isn't. Both Hitler and Muslim doctor fail, as do you and I.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by Custard:
quote:
So the Muslim doctor is not blameless. Did he spend every moment of every day glorifying God and giving thanks to him? Did he worship God, as God revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ? No.
Perhaps the Muslim doctor is blameless. Perhaps he follows unerringly the five pillars of his faith and worships Allah in truth. Perhaps he worships God, but can't see the truth in Jesus Christ to the extent Christianity teaches, though he regards Jesus as a prophet and born of a virgin. Perhaps he regards Jesus as the highest level of saintliness possible within our world.
Is any of this going to condemn him on the last day? Hitler f+c+i+g well deserves to be condemned, but perhaps God has another plan for him. The good Islamic doctor has nothing to fear from God. They aren't all suicide bombers.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Did he spend every moment of every day glorifying God and giving thanks to him? Did he worship God, as God revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ? No.
Great. Hitler killed millions, but I'm just as bad as he was because I didn't glorify God enough.
If that genuinely turns out to be God's standard He can fucking shove it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Gordon, what would happen to me, in your view, if I placed sincere faith in Brahman, or Moses, or the Buddha or Allah, but never in Jesus Christ?
Given that geography is a factor in what religion an individual is likely to follow, is it possible to become too Christocentric when debating soteriology?.
(Sepllgin)
[ 24. August 2005, 22:34: Message edited by: Papio. ]
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
But it doesn't work, because the standard of behaviour in heaven is perfection, which is decidedly uncomfortable for anyone who isn't. Both Hitler and Muslim doctor fail, as do you and I.
Then why did God bother spending all that time listing which sins to avoid? Why not just say "you're all wretched scum in need of repentance whatever you do"?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
But it doesn't work, because the standard of behaviour in heaven is perfection, which is decidedly uncomfortable for anyone who isn't. Both Hitler and Muslim doctor fail, as do you and I.
Then why did God bother spending all that time listing which sins to avoid? Why not just say "you're all wretched scum in need of repentance whatever you do"?
If I may play Devil's Advocate for a minute...
An answer to this may be: God listed a load of sins in order to convince us that we were wretched scum in need of repentence whatever we did.
I am not a murderer (unless you consider the Sermon on the Mount) but I have broken other Commandements.
To list a load of stuff lessens the wiggle room and the possibility that we may fail to realise that we need Christ.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Hi Papio,
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
Gordon, what would happen to me, in your view, if I placed sincere faith in Brahman, or Moses, or the Buddha or Allah, but never in Jesus Christ?
Before I answer that (and it will be a while, because I'm about to walk out the door), we can't limit your example to those religions can we? We also need to ask about the sincere followers of Canaanite or Aztec religions involving infant sacrifice. But I'll get back to you.
quote:
Given that geography is a factor <snip> is it possible to become too Christocentric when debating soteriology?
Well, not on my view—if Jesus Christ is Lord in Sydney and Jerusalem, Velore and Brazil, I can't see a necessary reason for excluding his lordship from Islamabad, or Alpha Centauri for that matter. His lordship in Sydney (and the other places) is predicated on his role as Creator and Sustainer of all.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Yes, the list of religions I gave was intended to be illustrative rather than exhaustive. A post listing every deity there has ever been (that we know of) would be rather long and tedious.
I look forward to your reply.
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Infinite Penguins.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
You know what? This thread is making me really hope God doesn't exist.
Because the God that's coming across is a bullying control freak who sets a whole raft of laws, some of them impossible to follow, then says it doesn't actually matter if you followed as many as you could, the consequences are the same.
It's like if the government passed a law against breathing, and made the penalty for transgressing exactly the same as that for murder.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng
quote:
Well, not on my view—if Jesus Christ is Lord in Sydney and Jerusalem, Velore and Brazil, I can't see a necessary reason for excluding his lordship from Islamabad, or Alpha Centauri for that matter. His lordship in Sydney (and the other places) is predicated on his role as Creator and Sustainer of all
Gordon
This is true shite. If Jesus is Lord on Alpha Centauri nobody there is going to know. Nor, for that matter is anyone in Islamabad, where Allah rules and hate preachers flourish. Even if Jesus is Lord of all Creation, in this world he's on;y Lord of those in the world who accept him. If you want to say that God only pardons those who call Jesus saviour, please cough up!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's like if the government passed a law against breathing, and made the penalty for transgressing exactly the same as that for murder.
Devil's advocate again:
It depends on whether sins are sinful because God says they are sinful, or whether they are sinful irrespective of what God says, and the only reason God said anything was so we'd know they were sinful.
There is a technical theological/philosophical jargon term (from Plato I believe) for that distinction, but I cannot recall what it is offhand and it doesn't really matter.
The point is, in the former case your anaology holds. In that latter case, it doesn't.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
It depends on whether sins are sinful because God says they are sinful, or whether they are sinful irrespective of what God says, and the only reason God said anything was so we'd know they were sinful.
If it's the latter, God has no power or control over sin. Besides, I don't buy it because if God doesn't exist then sin doesn't exist. It only exists in relation to God.
In the former, God has deliberately set up existence so that we can't get through without Him. That's not loving in my book, it's more like the sort of thing a drug dealer would do to an addict.
[ 24. August 2005, 23:16: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
Since you're so fond of proof-texting, I give you Matthew 7v21: Not everyone who says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of God and, as usual, Matthew 25 v34-46, which to my mind inescapably demonstrate that the blameless Muslim doctor is in and Adolf is out.
That's my take as well.
The question is who will choose heaven and who will feel comfortable there. The answer is that people feel comfortable in heaven who love the values and practices of that kingdom: justice, mercy and faith.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
"And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God."
That pretty well sums it up for me.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I'm not discerning a lot of grace in this topic thread.
"By grace are you saved, through faith, and not by works..." Not by thinking yourself into grace; not by feeling yourself into grace; not by working yourself or willing yourself into grace. You can't do it.
Which of course begs the question, "What do you mean by 'faith'?" At least at my corner of the church neighborhood, "faith" is not defined as knowing/thinking the right things about God, but rather radical trust in God's saving power.
Does the kindly and upstanding Muslim doctor have radical faith in the saving power of God? Maybe. Did some Nazi thugs, in their dying moments, remember the "Beautiful Savior" of their childhood and throw themselves upon his mercy? Maybe.
A pastor of my acquaintance put it this way: God's justice is mercy and God's mercy is justice. It's bigger than our little and flawed human thoughts can wrap around.
I wonder if Jesus' message to us, in our efforts to figure out who is on and who is off the salvation bus, is rather like that line in the Gospel of John..."What is it to you...follow me!"
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Just a branch on the vine
Shipmate
# 7752
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Posted
quote:
I wonder if Jesus' message to us, in our efforts to figure out who is on and who is off the salvation bus, is rather like that line in the Gospel of John..."What is it to you...follow me!"
I agree with Lutheran Chik. It seems as though there can be a very strong case for both arguments:
1.) People are redeemed/receive God's mercy through actions (Matthew 25, Micah 6:6-8, etc.). Such a view can spur on to radical discipleship.
2.) God gives mercy, without human actions as a prerequesite (generally when they call upon the name of Jesus -- which, I realize, is an action prerequesite). I think of the thief on the cross (he had nothing going for him, his time for action-salvation was over; could Hitler fall in this category? He could, but who knows?). I think of the people Jesus scandelously accepted, despite their "unrighteous" lifestyles.
Though I try to follow salvation plan 1, I find myself collapsing, exhaused, into the arms of Jesus for mercy when I fail (which is all the time).
Didn't Jesus only tell one person (the thief on the cross) specifically that they were going to heaven? Conversely, did he tell anyone specifically they were going to hell? Certainly, he spoke generally of salvation and damnation, but as I recall the Gospels, Jesus doesn't go around telling people who is "in" or "out".
If Jesus didn't, why should we? Can we know the mind of God and his mercy?
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I'm not into proof texting, but "blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy' (or words to that effect) It's in a Gospel somewhere.
Beyond that I don't know. God's mercy is beyond my comprehension, but I not only believe in it, I rely on it.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
God's mercy and love will encompass everyone.
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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
You seem to be advocating salvation by works, Qlib.
Well, I'm not. I'm advocating salvation by Love. Love of God and love of His Children. Was Jesus advocating salvation by works in Matthew 25? I think not.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Dubitante
Shipmate
# 10015
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Posted
I don't actually have faith as I have said before.
But if I were to isolate anything which means the mercy of God, I'd have to go back to the story of Sodom in Genesis 18, where Abraham repeatedly stands up to God who was planning to wipe out the city, and said:
"Wilt thou indeed destroy the righteous with the wicked?
...
Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
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"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."
Posts: 343 | From: London UK | Registered: Aug 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubitante:
"Wilt thou indeed destroy the righteous with the wicked?
...
Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
...And yea, God replied saying: "There's no such thing as a righteous person. They're all equally deserving of death. Even you, worm!" And lo, He struck down the city, and Abraham as well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
The way I see it John 3:16 is a positive command. It explains how God saves the world and deals with sin, death and the devil (Jesus - the incarnation, cross and resurrection), and that whoever believes (and that word means truely believes, so it includes appropriate response, though that is not works), is saved. However, it does not positively say whoever doesn't believe conversely goes to hell. The mechanism for salvation for all creation is the key thing that is shown. Elsewhere the Bible is very clear about God's love and mercy, and the importance of repentence. However much is given unto us, so shall be expected. Thus for the young Muslim girl kept indoors who is never exposed to Christianity she will be judged fairly and with love and mercy.
I have always been deeply moved by CS Lewis's 'Great Divorce'. It is about the basic attitude of the heart, whether it recognises at some level the need for repentence, or not simply to focus just on the self. I am not a universalist, but I think it is still possible that all will be saved.
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Gauk
Shipmate
# 1125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
In the former, God has deliberately set up existence so that we can't get through without Him. That's not loving in my book, it's more like the sort of thing a drug dealer would do to an addict.
Indeed. I don't think it's unreasonable to apply our moral judgement to the case. Put it like this - if you were God, for what crimes would YOU like to condemn someone to eternal torture?
In a civilised country, we don't believe that anyone should be tortured at all for anything. Do we believe in something that makes God out to be less civilised than countries here on Earth that don't permit torture?
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Now the Sirens have a still more fatal weapon than their song, namely their silence ... it is conceivable that someone might possibly have escaped from their singing; but from their silence certainly never.
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
I think some people are missing the point on this question of us all being guilty, and as anyone knows, clearly* I understand it all fully.
St Anselm IIRC argued that if God is actually God, that is the only self-existent being, the creator of all things and so on, the source of all goodness and love, then we owe total allegiance to him and any transgression against his will turns out to be of greater significance than we can imagine. I accept this although it appears to be an unpopular opinion. Few living humans manage to get through life without sinning in some manner, and I'd be here for hours if I had to list even the ones I can remember. That's the justly condemned argument out of the way.
Now, assume for a moment that there's some kind of binary division between those who end up in Heaven and those who don't - note that that leaves the nature of Hell out of the question, other than to say it's not-Heaven in eternity. Is it just that any sinner ends up there, if Heaven is a reward for good behaviour? I say not. Is anyone prepared to say they think they've been good enough to get in? Have you earned your salvation? No form of Christianity with which I'm familiar claims this is practically possible.
Take the next step. If nobody has earned their way into heaven, then we end up in not-Heaven by default. What's unfair about that? It's no use moaning that we didn't have a chance and so should be let into Heaven anyway as if it's our right. A serial killer doesn't have the right to walk the streets with a chainsaw.
But as we presume God knows what he's doing and wants all to be saved, we don't assume Heaven is unpopulated. If anyone gets in, it must be an act of mercy. Not an act of you-earned-your-way-in justice, but of undeserved mercy. That's all there is to it.
Now, getting down to judgement. We've had rather large hints from scripture and our own consciences that what we do actually matters in an eternal sense. How can this be, if a single sin puts us outside the set of those who deserve Heaven? Well, it only makes sense to me in a theosis or sanctification context. In order to be in Heaven, we will have to be transformed into Heavenly creatures, or Heaven will be just the same as this world, with people backstabbing each other (no offence Sine) left right and centre, suffering not exactly hard to find, rampant oppression and so on.
Tentatively therefore, I propose that judgement might be about whether we actually want this and are prepared to do anything about it - which way are we heading, towards God and Heaven or away from them? The problems of faith versus works and Amazon tribes go away if this is true, and we can see that the practical teachings of mainstream Christian denominations are geared towards this. Detailed Catholic doctrine on sin with its system of confession and repentance is designed to orient the creature towards God and hasten deification. Protestant soteriology still emphasises that faith without works is dead - thus sanctification must proceed inevitably from justification.
Does this usurp Christ's position as judge? Obviously not, as nobody but God can see into someone's heart, can know all the circumstances that limited and influenced choice, and so on. Does this mean that Christianity is not necessarily the surest way to salvation? I don't think so. Sheep in the vicinity of the (visible) Church will generally find their way in, recognising their Master's voice and it's within the Church that the fastest and surest means of turning to God are available. Nor does this mean that those who have no access to the Church are abandoned.
Hopefully some of that is coherent and anyone who got this far will know that I didn't actually answer the OP, because my answer is somewhere between "everyone but it won't necessarily help" and "I don't know and can't know." Nothing I've said is for or against universalism.
* Clearly, the use of the word 'clearly' indicates that it is anything but.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I can't believe that (to put an extreme case) there is not a space in God's mercy for those who could not 'put their trust in Jesus' - or whatever - simply because by history or geography they had never heard of him.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I have to admit that I do believe in salvation through works although grace plays its part in God's forgiveness. In this sense. God requires complete and perfect holiness from us. We can't give it. But He knows that because He created us and put us here. So what does He require of us. Campbellit's quote from Micah 6.8 about sums it up.
In practical terms, He requires us to strive with every fibre of our being to do His will. Where we fgail, and we all do, He forgives us when we have the courage and honesty to admit to Him that we were wrong. That's where grace comes in. By His unlimited grace, He forgives the penitent. Belief, credulity and the recitation of creeds have nothing, IMO to do with it.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Paul, I see it the way that you do. God's grace consists in giving us the ability to obey Him and reform. The power is all His.
If this were not true Jesus' many statements to this effect would be meaningless. His free gift to us is the power to obey Him, and the heavenly joy that results. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Just answering a few questions and comments that were directed to me:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Gordon<snip> If you want to say that God only pardons those who call Jesus saviour, please cough up!
Yes, that is what I believe. I thought I said that? Anyway, it is consistent with what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost, for example (the Acts verse I quoted earlier). The Jews he was addressing believed in the true God. He still called on them to repent and find salvation in the Lord Jesus. If they couldn't reach heaven without Jesus, no-one could.
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
Gordon, what would happen to me, in your view, if I placed sincere faith in Brahman, or Moses, or the Buddha or Allah, but never in Jesus Christ?
You would be judged by God and go to hell.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Because the God that's coming across is a bullying control freak who sets a whole raft of laws, some of them impossible to follow, then says it doesn't actually matter if you followed as many as you could, the consequences are the same.
Question for you Marvin. Some killers and sex criminals report that they feel unavoidably compelled to commit the particular crimes that they do. On your view, should the government pass laws against the crimes they are committing? And if the government does, and the compulsive criminal goes ahead and breaks the law anyway, is "I couldn't help it" a reasonable defence?
[ 25. August 2005, 12:22: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QUOTE] Besides, I don't buy it because if God doesn't exist then sin doesn't exist. It only exists in relation to God.
So if neither of us believed in God it would be OK for me to remove fifty quid from your wallet without asking?
And just on the off-chance that the answer is 'no', ![[Smile]](smile.gif) are people to find a sense of right and wrong from somewhere? When an atheist I was still convinced there was an ethical framework that made sense for all humans to follow (broadly speaking, it was obvious to me that there were limited occasions when generally nasty stuff ™ like violence and stealing were necessary)
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
We also need to ask about the sincere followers of Canaanite or Aztec religions involving infant sacrifice. But I'll get back to you.
Tangent alert: Aztecs probably didn't practise infant sacrifice. They had human sacrifices, mainly drawn from adult war captives, from ritual 'wars/games' called the 'flower wars'.
There were also sacrifices of adult 'volunteers' on religious occasions, sometimes losers or winners of other war games, some 'elected' and given a period of time treated like a king before sacrifice.
Just standing up for a much-maligned and really quite cuddly group of people ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Because the God that's coming across is a bullying control freak who sets a whole raft of laws, some of them impossible to follow, then says it doesn't actually matter if you followed as many as you could, the consequences are the same.
Question for you Marvin. Some killers and sex criminals report that they feel unavoidably compelled to commit the particular crimes that they do. On your view, should the government pass laws against the crimes they are committing? And if the government does, and the compulsive criminal goes ahead and breaks the law anyway, is "I couldn't help it" a reasonable defence?
Firstly, however compelled one feels to do something it's still not impossible to avoid doing it. So your comparison isn't really valid - unless the crimes you're talking about were breathing/eating etc.
And we're not talking about hurting someone else here either. We're talking about something as inoccuous as worshipping God with an inaccurate theology.
My problem with the God presented on this thread is that there's a completely binary heaven/hell afterlife. It doesn't matter if you committed one tiny sin or every mortal sin possible - you're just as wretched and destined to burn.
You'll never convince me that thinking Jesus was a really good guy (but not divine) is just as evil as spraying automatic gunfire round a nursery. I'll be amazed if even God can.
Ah well, if I've got to go to Hell for something it might as well be for having a sense of fairness...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
So if neither of us believed in God it would be OK for me to remove fifty quid from your wallet without asking?
It wouldn't be a sin. But then, neither would me hunting you down and taking your eyes in bloody vengeance .
So laws would spring up to make sure people don't go round hurting each other like that, because it would only lead to the complete failure of society.
But those laws wouldn't cover shit like not having the right theology, or govern what you think. They'd exist only so that we treated each other well.
God sets the bar way, way too high for us to ever clear. And ISTM that He does so purely in order to make sure we need to be with Him. So either He's really insecure, or He's a total control freak.
Any good human parent keeps their kids on a tight leash as a way of teaching them to go it alone. And when the kids are ready, they let go. God insists that we remain toddlers clinging to the apron strings for eternity, or He sends us to Hell ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) .
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My problem with the God presented on this thread is that there's a completely binary heaven/hell afterlife. It doesn't matter if you committed one tiny sin or every mortal sin possible - you're just as wretched and destined to burn.
This is a very good criticism. I think that divine fairness must actually be fair.
It makes me quite sure that the black-and-white imagery of the biblical heaven and hell is an adaptation to the simplistic human mind. The reality, as with most things, must be infinitely richer and more complex.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
You would be judged by God and go to hell.
...And you really, honestly find that God to be worthy of worship?
I'm truly sorry to say this, but I just don't. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
His criteria seem to be to be arbitary, unjust, petulent, stupid, biased and cruel.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Tropical Beachcomber
Shipmate
# 9009
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Posted
As Lutheran Chik said, there's been very little mention of Grace on this thread. I believe that our reaction to Grace is what ultimately saves or damns us. If we accept it, and admit our desperate need for it, we are saved. If we reject it, and rely on anything else for our salvation, be that faith or works or whatever, we are damned by our own acts. However, I also believe that we are given many, many opportunities to accept or deny our need for Grace.
The 'good' man crucified with Jesus was offered Grace just before he died, which was (probably) the first time he had met Jesus. He accepted it, and received salvation. The other man rejected it, and was condemned. If that first man could be saved at the very moment of his death, there is hope for everyone. Perhaps what really happens at the Gates of Heaven is that the dead are asked their views on Grace. Our final destination is thus of our own choosing.
I'm aware that this doesn't leave much room for the wrath of God, or for His judgement to be meted out, but perhaps the real judgement is whether or not we accept Grace.
JJB
Posts: 157 | From: south of the river | Registered: Jan 2005
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
God sets the bar way, way too high for us to ever clear. And ISTM that He does so purely in order to make sure we need to be with Him.
No. The bar is that high because that's where the bar is. I can't construct any image of heaven in my mind that doesn't involve people who choose never to sin, and have the power so to choose (as we don't).
It isn't, be perfect (or whatever translation you prefer) or God will be so pissed off he'll send you to Hell. It's, be perfect because perfection is the Heavenly state. Being in Heaven without being perfect is either a logical contradiction or a state of affairs that would destroy you or Heaven. Something like that, anyway...
Then the question of judgement once again isn't God asking, "Are you a sinner? Oops, everybody except Mother and me, in the furnace." I think it must be something else, something that will determine whether you become a Heavenly creature. Gordon's reading of the Bible is I think that that something is God's apparently arbitrary choice to grant faith to some based on nothing we can change.
I think it may be the active cooperation of the will, that engages more fully the more you come to learn of and experience God (hence the importance of doctrine), that is enhanced and accelerated by the sacraments of the Church and ultimately, though not necessarily in this life, found only by being incorporated (pun intended) into the Body of Christ, by the fullest acquisition of the Holy Spirit, by communion with God.
That's my hypothesis this week, anyway.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
No. The bar is that high because that's where the bar is. I can't construct any image of heaven in my mind that doesn't involve people who choose never to sin, and have the power so to choose (as we don't).
It's going to be a pretty empty place then. Or somewhere filled with millions of identical perfection clones. Either way it doesn't exactly appeal...
quote:
It isn't, be perfect (or whatever translation you prefer) or God will be so pissed off he'll send you to Hell. It's, be perfect because perfection is the Heavenly state. Being in Heaven without being perfect is either a logical contradiction or a state of affairs that would destroy you or Heaven. Something like that, anyway...
Then none of us will make it intact. Only a shell of what we were, devoid of all character and interest, will remain. We'll be like Winston Smith at the end of 1984 - everything but blind obedience to the Party (God) will have been removed.
quote:
Then the question of judgement once again isn't God asking, "Are you a sinner? Oops, everybody except Mother and me, in the furnace." I think it must be something else, something that will determine whether you become a Heavenly creature. Gordon's reading of the Bible is I think that that something is God's apparently arbitrary choice to grant faith to some based on nothing we can change.
I think it may be the active cooperation of the will, that engages more fully the more you come to learn of and experience God (hence the importance of doctrine), that is enhanced and accelerated by the sacraments of the Church and ultimately, though not necessarily in this life, found only by being incorporated (pun intended) into the Body of Christ, by the fullest acquisition of the Holy Spirit, by communion with God.
Sounds terrible. The only way to be saved is to completely subjugate yourself. To abandon any individuality you once posessed.
The very thought terrifies me. Is there another option?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is there another option?
Yes.
quote:
"The hope for participation in eternity is hope for a continuation of the present life after death. It is not hope for endless time after the time given to us. Endless time is not eternity; no finite being can seriously hope for it. But every finite being can hope for return to the eternal from which it comes. And this hope has the more assurance, the deeper and more real the present participation in eternal life is."
From Paul Tillich's The Right to Hope at Religion-Online.
Marvin, you're ready for the Dark Side of post-neo-modero-existentialo-Panentheo Process Theology. Quit arguing and get going buddy.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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