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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: to whom will God show mercy?
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Sorry to be so basic, then, but why (in your opinion) does the New Testament (including Jesus) refer to the Old Testament as the "Law and the Prophets", and sometimes just as the "Law", if God is not lawgiver.
I didn't say that God is not lawgiver. In fact, I think I rather clearly said that he gave the Law to his people.
quote:
And, in your opinion (depending on your answer), is it possible to break this "Law"?
Of course it is. I break it every time I have a ham and cheese sandwich, or wear my cotton-and-linen blend dress.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Mudfrog says: quote:
Yes, our forgiveness is a done deal as far as its provision but the personal application of that forgiveness depends very much on a deliberate act of willing faith.
As several clergypeople and theologians of my acquaintance are wont to point out, if it ain't free, it ain't grace .
Mandating that someone do or think or feel the right things about God is turning salvation into a human work.
Try reading Luther's Bondage of the Will for a different perspective than the one you seem to be hearing.
Josephine: Interestingly, over on our side of the street I think that the judicial/penal theory of atonement is rapidly losing ground to the Christus Victor theory..."it's all over but the shouting." I have an Orthodox friend who has introduced me to the Orthodox way of understanding salvation, and I find that that resonates with me as well. Lutherans and Orthodox are engaged in some interesting theological cross-pollination right now (esp. the Finnish Lutherans) regarding theosis ...maybe we'll be seeing some attempts to find common ground on this issue as well in the near future.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Of course it is. I break it every time I have a ham and cheese sandwich, or wear my cotton-and-linen blend dress
Actually you don't because you aren't a Jew. The 613 mitzvot which include some of the dietry rules, the others coming from the oral tradition, are only binding on Jews. The rest of us are only required to follow the seven laws of Noah. The only dietry condition contained therin, which I think few of us violate nowadays is not to eat the limb of a living animal.
The Noachide Laws are general. Prohibitions on idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, improper sexual relations, eating the limb of a live animal plus the requirement to make a justice system which enforces the other six. According to Judaism, a Gentile who keeps those laws has a place in the world to come. The medieval Spanish Jewish sage Maimonides said that it was perfectly possible to be a Muslim and a Noachide, but that Christians violate the prohibition on idolotry by worshipping a man.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
God's will has a lot to do with our response to Jesus and not to some vague notion of 'God' and our practice of neighbourliness
I couldn't disagree more. Jesus told us that our neighbourliness, ie loving our neighbour as ourselves, visiting the sick, imprisoned widowed etc was God's requirement for us, not some "response" to Jesus. In fact I can't see why we need Jesus' death or anyone else's to redeem us. Why can't I simply petition the Father for forgiveness when I go astray? For His mercy endureth forever.
The great value in Jesus life and witness to us is that he showed us how to live and how to die in total cleaving to his Father, who is our Father. None of us is able to follow him to perfection, but we can keep our gaze fixed on him and throw ourselves on the mercy of the Lord at all times. I see salvation through Christ in those terms and the view that God had to send Jesus to put right His creation which had gone wrong denies the omnipotence and omniscience of God.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
As several clergypeople and theologians of my acquaintance are wont to point out, if it ain't free, it ain't grace .
Mandating that someone do or think or feel the right things about God is turning salvation into a human work.
The logic here is hard to argue with, but didn't Jesus mandate these things?
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Interestingly, over on our side of the street I think that the judicial/penal theory of atonement is rapidly losing ground to the Christus Victor theory..."it's all over but the shouting."
Maybe I'm misunderstanding Christus Victor, but I thought that it rejected the idea of faith alone. Christ was victorious over sin so that we are free to obey His law - and our salvation then depends on this obedience. Or isn't this the Orthodox view?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
In fact I can't see why we need Jesus' death or anyone else's to redeem us. Why can't I simply petition the Father for forgiveness when I go astray? For His mercy endureth forever.
The great thing about PSA is that it is an easy explanation for why Christ's death is significant. Those of us who reject that concept have a harder time drawing something comparably simplistic out of Scripture to explain His death.
My own belief is that Christ's death represented a final victory over the power of the hells, since that power is especially attached to the human love of self, and therefore to the human desire to preserve our own life at all costs. His willingness to sacrifice His natural life broke that power.
So we did need His death to redeem us, otherwise we would all be slaves to the power of darkness that had been continually increasing since the Fall due to human sin.
Since He did redeem us, or rescue us, you are right that any of us can petition the Father for forgiveness. That's how I see it.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I see salvation through Christ in those terms and the view that God had to send Jesus to put right His creation which had gone wrong denies the omnipotence and omniscience of God.
As I understand it, it is not that creation had gone wrong. It was merely that humans were becoming more and more removed from God due to self-centered and worldly interests. They could no longer hear God's voice.
God at any point could have turned this around by exerting His omnipotence. But this would not have preserved human freedom. In His omniscience He knew that if He came to earth, and taught the divine truth in human terms, He could defeat the power of evil and still preserve human freedom. This is what is repeatedly described in the gospels.
The upshot is that now we have access to knowledge that we did not have before, and this knowledge is what enlightens and will change the world.
As I see it, this is how the divine omnipotence works.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Sorry to be so basic, then, but why (in your opinion) does the New Testament (including Jesus) refer to the Old Testament as the "Law and the Prophets", and sometimes just as the "Law", if God is not lawgiver.
I didn't say that God is not lawgiver. In fact, I think I rather clearly said that he gave the Law to his people.
Sure, I didn't mean to be going over old ground, I'm just trying to work out your beliefs on this question from first principles. Sorry if it came across differently.
quote:
originally posted by Josephine: quote:
Me: And, in your opinion (depending on your answer), is it possible to break this "Law"?
You: Of course it is. I break it every time I have a ham and cheese sandwich, or wear my cotton-and-linen blend dress.
Really? I thought that those particular laws were addressed to the people of Israel living in the land of Israel, so I wouldn't have considered that you break them.
But how do you (or anyone really) go with the law that is addressed more broadly to humanity by God, spoken of by James, for example, when he says:
quote:
James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
Would you say that you (or I, or anyone) have broken it, or would you consider that this, like the ham and cheese law, is not really relevant to our situation?
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Freddy asks:
quote:
The logic here is hard to argue with, but didn't Jesus mandate these things?
No. Who said, "This is the work that God wants -- to believe in the one whom [God] has sent"? ...the believing, i.e., radical trust in, being possible only because of the work of the Holy Spirit and not because of any inherent "believing" aptitude in the beliver.
quote:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding Christus Victor, but I thought that it rejected the idea of faith alone. Christ was victorious over sin so that we are free to obey His law - and our salvation then depends on this obedience. Or isn't this the Orthodox view?
In my discussions on salvation with Orthodox Christians, they do not make salvation contingent upon works; they also understand God to be the initiating agent in salvation. I think you may be confusing salvation/justification with sanctification, and the Orthodox idea of <i>theosis</i>.
The way I understand it, the Orthodox view of salvation isn't exactly Christus Victor -- at least that is not what my informal Orthodox tutor would say. But I'll leave it to the Orthodox folks here to explain their view. My point was not that we're both at the same place in understanding the metaphysics of salvation, but that in largely abandoning the judicial/penal model, we have more "talking room."
BTW, a good book written by a Lutheran trying to find common ground between Lutherans and Orthodox regarding <i>theosis</i> is Christ Present in Faith by Tuomo Mannermaa (Fortress Press), a Finnish theologian. It created something of a buzz amongst theology geeks on this side of the pond when it came out.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
No point in being a Christian or anything else, then. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
See, now we're getting somewhere! This way of thinking tends to take the edge off of our arguments to convince people of converting to Christianity. But, for me, there is immense point in being a Christian. Christ has been integral in helping me to realize the grace that I have been given and to begin to live as an active, participating member of this grace.
For that I am deeply indebted to my Lord.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Of course it is. I break it every time I have a ham and cheese sandwich, or wear my cotton-and-linen blend dress
Actually you don't because you aren't a Jew.
Is this from modern Judaism, perhaps from the Talmud? I haven't heard anything about Noachide Laws, etc.
I think, however, that Christian arguments about the Bible tend to put them in a hard spot when it comes to these Laws.
quote:
A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly...
Romans 2:28-29
Under the new covenant, there is no Jew or Gentile. But to simply say "Well this is the old law that passed away under this new covenant, too" puts us at the same risk that comes with those who argue "If you take one thing out of the Bible, somewhat arbitrarily, how can you accept any of it as authoritative?"
It's a tough line, and quite confusing.
(Especially for me!) ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Standing on head to get a different perspective...
What if...
...we've mistaken goals for commandments? Maybe God doesn't say "oh, you nasty filthy humans--bad humans BAD--You Didn't Do It Right! Damn you!" but instead "listen up...you're hurting yourselves and each other...there's a better way to live...how about you try it...ok, now try it again..."
...God is like a parent with a baby who is learning to walk? "C'mon, sweetie, you can do it. Whoops. Fall down and go boom! Ick. Ok, c'mon, hoist that rear up there and try again. You can do it. Keep trying. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) "
--God is infinitely patient with each one of us? "Hey, you got your driver's license. Congratulations! I knew you could do it. Ok, so you had to take the test 500 times, and had to practice for years. Big deal. You did it!"
Maybe God's grace and love are bigger and deeper than anything we've ever hoped for.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Re: the incertainty about To God Be The Glory and especially the verse that reads,
O perfect redemption, the purchase of blood,
To every believer the promise of God.
The vilest offender who truly believes
That moment from Jesus a pardon receives.
Some are questioning this instantaneous savation/forgiveness concept. Could I suggest a pastoral use for these words?
The scenario is a person who approaches a pastor or a priest with a heavy conscience. He is aware of wrong-doing, perhaps it's a crisis of guilt and shame. In confession, or at the altar or even in the pastor's study he asks, "I am a sinner, I feel guilty, can God forgive me?"
What would any pastor offer to a man in those circulmstances? He would the comfort and the assurance of God's grace and forgiveness:
Almighty God,
who forgives all who truly repent,
have mercy upon you,
pardon and deliver you from all your sins,
confirm and strengthen you in all goodness,
and keep you in life eternal;
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Or more extempore words as an alternative.
Is the churches teaching not that Jesus forgives sins at the moment of repentance?
Surely we are not going to say to the penitent, "You'll have to wait for forgiveness until you have proved you can obey the commandments!"
Forgiveness is instantaneous - and so is the assurance of the work of grace.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Mudfrog:
quote:
Some are questioning this instantaneous savation/forgiveness concept.
Weel, yes, that'd be me, but not in the way you are suggesting.
quote:
Is the churches teaching not that Jesus forgives sins at the moment of repentance?
Well, if you want to nuance it, I would say that we are already forgiven, but that we only aquire the fruits of that forgiveness, (in your example, the salving of a guilty conscience) when we repent.
quote:
What would any pastor offer to a man in those circulmstances? He would the comfort and the assurance of God's grace and forgiveness:
Almighty God,
who forgives all who truly repent,
have mercy upon you,
pardon and deliver you from all your sins,
confirm and strengthen you in all goodness,
and keep you in life eternal;
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I would hope so!
quote:
Surely we are not going to say to the penitent, "You'll have to wait for forgiveness until you have proved you can obey the commandments!"
I haven't read anyone suggesting this. Rather, that the forgiveness preceeds the repentance, just as in the parable of the Prodigal Son.
quote:
Forgiveness is instantaneous - and so is the assurance of the work of grace.
The second half of this sentence is just not true. It's a classic example of bending reality to fit with a theory. Many people struggle for years before they reach that point of assurance, if they ever do. This can be for a number of reasons, but one key one is the teaching that such instantaneous assurance is normative. Thereore, if I do not have it, I am not forgiven. This is not what the Bible teaches, though it is a view I have heard propounded by certain evangelicals, often those, like myself, with links to Methodism (which is strange, considering how Wesley struggled with this for years). I assume that you do not believe that forgiveness is invalid if unaccompanied by assurance, but rather that our forgiveness is independant of our feelings.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Re the assurance of forgiveness.
I don't think I mentioned feelings. Very often we do 'feel' assured of our faith, but when we don't, it is the work of the pastor using words to scripture to assure us that in reality, even if not felt inwardly, the work of grace has occurred - and that it happened as soon as we trusted Christ for forgiveness.
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that forgiveness is already won and we are invited to appropriate it for ourselves.
What I can't accept is the possibility that just because Jesus died for the world, the world is therefore saved, it just doesn't know it yet.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Mudfrog:
quote:
I don't think I mentioned feelings.
True, what you wrote was: quote:
Forgiveness is instantaneous - and so is the assurance of the work of grace.
If not by an inward witness, how can we receive such instantaneous assurance. I agree that we can be "taught into" becoming assured, and I am not saying that it is per force, a bad thing, but it is hardly instantaneous, which was the aspect that I was taking issue with.
quote:
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that forgiveness is already won and we are invited to appropriate it for ourselves.
Ah, but here's the nub. It depends on what you mean by "won" and what you mean by "appropriate it for ourselves". I would say that the use of the word "won" implies a subtext that forgiveness is something that would not have been available to us apart from the Cross. This I reject. God is willing, able and unfettered in his ability to forgive whosoever he will (and that means, in practice, any and everybody). Not only that, he has already done so, because he loves everyone. If by "appropriating it for ourselves, you mean gaining the benefits naturally accrueing to forgiveness (eg, peace, assurance of our status as beloved sons, etc) for ourselves, then I am with you. If you mean, rather, that until such time we are objectively unforgiven, then I am not. Just going back to my analogy of the pardonned lawbreaker, if that man were to encounter the police, he would not be subject to arrest because he had already been pardonned. The fact that he is unaware of his pardon is immaterial. So it is with forgiveness IMHO.
quote:
What I can't accept is the possibility that just because Jesus died for the world, the world is therefore saved, it just doesn't know it yet.
But that is not what I have said. I have said, to adopt your phraseology "because Jesus died for the world, the world is therefore forgiven, it just doesn't know it yet."
What I reject is the one-to-one identification of salvation with forgiveness, as if that was all there is to it. As Josephine wrote: quote:
forgiveness of sins is not the same thing as salvation. Forgiveness of sins is part of salvation for those of us (most of us) who have sins that need to be forgiven. But forgiveness of sins is only a very small part of salvation.
With regard to whether all will be saved, I am agnostic, though I do tend, for very good scriptural reasons, to believe Hell, (if it is understood to be a literal place or state, and I am not sure that you can, from the Bible, prove that such a reading is valid), is and will be empty. What I do believe, (and I believe that the Bible teaches) is that what Jesus did on the cross was to defeat the power of sin in the world, and therefore in us, creatures of the creation that we are. He was winning for us eternal life, breaking our bondage to "the law of sin and death", however you want to phrase it. What he was not doing was winning our forgiveness, that was a done deal.
Perhaps I need to put it even more plainly. I believe it would have been quite possible to be forgiven for our sins and not inherit eternal life. To have eternal life, we must be bound to the one who is eternal, or, to put it in Paul's words, we must put on Christ. This has nothing, per se, to do with forgiveness. We sin because we are sinners. To receive eternal life, we must be healed of our sinfulness, and that, that is the reason for the Atonement, not the requirement to be forgiven, which would only be dealing with the symptoms of our "disease".
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
What I can't accept is the possibility that just because Jesus died for the world, the world is therefore saved, it just doesn't know it yet.
Why? Why can't you accept that?
BTW: If you are going to make salvation contingent upon "doing something," then it seems to me that it's vitally important -- a matter of life and death, as it were -- for us all to know what the ratio of divine/human effort is that effects salvation. Is it 50/50? 75/25? 90/10? 10/90? 25/75? Do you know?
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Freddy asks:
quote:
The logic here is hard to argue with, but didn't Jesus mandate these things?
No.
Yes, He did.
quote:
“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matthew 9
“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say? 47“Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48“He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49“But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6.46-49
"For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36“But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12.33
2“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." John 15.12
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20“teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you." Matthew 28.20
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7.19-23
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8“By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love. John 15.6-10
“Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of the heavens.” Matthew 5:20.
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7.19-23
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 9“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love. John 15.6-10
“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36“But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12.33
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22.12-15
These seem like a mandate to me. There are many other passages like them.
Jesus mandated that people do and think the right things in relation to God to be saved. This does not turn salvation into a human work because part of this is the acknowledgment that only God has merit and power, so that we can believe and obey Him only from His power, not our own.
Does this fit with your take on these passages?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
What I can't accept is the possibility that just because Jesus died for the world, the world is therefore saved, it just doesn't know it yet.
Why? Why can't you accept that?
BTW: If you are going to make salvation contingent upon "doing something," then it seems to me that it's vitally important -- a matter of life and death, as it were -- for us all to know what the ratio of divine/human effort is that effects salvation. Is it 50/50? 75/25? 90/10? 10/90? 25/75? Do you know?
Look, Jesus does all the saving but he can't believe for you.
You have to do something for yourself!
Whosever believes shall have everlasting life...
Repent and believe the gospel...
It is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe...
If there was no requirement to believe then there was no need for Jesus, the cross, the resurrection - anything.
He could have just forgiven Adam and Eve on the spot, told them, "Well, let's forget the whole thing" and carried on with everything hunky-dory in the garden.
But he didn't.
The response to the Gospel is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Bonaventura*
Shipmate
# 5561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I see salvation through Christ in those terms and the view that God had to send Jesus to put right His creation which had gone wrong denies the omnipotence and omniscience of God.
ah... the scotist doctrine of God. By scotist doctrine I mean in effect appeals to ominipotence: God if he wants is entirely free to remit sin, why then is there a need for Jesus?
Appeals to omnipotence are almost always unsatisfactory, being in effect abstract appeals to logical possibility rather than arguments from the way which God is in his action.
I also find it highly ironic that for a person who claims to be highly influenced by judaism, to essentially fall back on Hellenistic concepts, and by ultimately appealing to how God must be in essence, a textbook example of how Greeks would argue contra Hebrew. Scotism is ultimately platonic.
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So lovers of wine drink up! The Beloved has lifted his red glass. And paradise cannot be, now, far away. -Hafëz
Posts: 252 | From: Et in Arcadia requiesco | Registered: Feb 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, Jesus does all the saving but he can't believe for you.
You have to do something for yourself!
Whosever believes shall have everlasting life...
Repent and believe the gospel...
It is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe...
You make it sound as if believing is something that one can just decide to do. IME that's not the case.
You also make it sound as if belief is the only thing that's essential for salvation (albeit that the other stuff is desirable). Is that what you're saying?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We're saying the same thing Mudfrog. Unless you mean not all obtain the provision of atonement and prevenient grace. ALL are saved, whether they know it or not, unless they choose otherwise. I'm gald you agree.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Freddy: What did the thief on the cross do to earn his salvation?
For that matter, what do you think you're doing to earn yours? How do you know you have? What's your "salvation formula"?
Who is it that you think is prompting you and strengthening you in whatever good works you do? Are you really the initiating agent in these good works? How do you know?
Bondage of the Will -- a good read.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm glad too. BTBroadband is PONY!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, Jesus does all the saving but he can't believe for you.
You have to do something for yourself!
Whosever believes shall have everlasting life...
Repent and believe the gospel...
It is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe...
You make it sound as if believing is something that one can just decide to do. IME that's not the case.
You also make it sound as if belief is the only thing that's essential for salvation (albeit that the other stuff is desirable). Is that what you're saying?
Wesleyans are just calvinistic enough to believe in total depravity - ie I cannot just 'decide' to believe in Christ for my salvation because every area of my nature is depraved by sin.
But we are also Arminian enough to believe in unlimited atonement which says that Christ died for the whole world, not just those who will populate heaven.
In between the two is the doctrine of prevenient grace which, when added to common grace, gives the ability to receive saving grace. Prevenient grace is not however the same as saving grace.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We're saying the same thing Mudfrog. Unless you mean not all obtain the provision of atonement and prevenient grace. ALL are saved, whether they know it or not, unless they choose otherwise. I'm gald you agree.
I mean that the provision is made but by not positively accepting that provision, there is a rejection - or at least an ignoring of that provision.
If there is no repentance and faith there is no forgiveness or salvation - however nice you might be.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gauk
Shipmate
# 1125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonaventura:
ah... the scotist doctrine of God. By scotist doctrine I mean in effect appeals to ominipotence: God if he wants is entirely free to remit sin, why then is there a need for Jesus?
Appeals to omnipotence are almost always unsatisfactory, being in effect abstract appeals to logical possibility rather than arguments from the way which God is in his action.
This begs the question of what IS the way which God is in his action. This is to be determined in the light of rather weak evidence.
Hence the appeal to logic; not so much to logical possibility as to logical impossibility. Any doctrine which makes God appear stupid, weak or cruel is probably a bad doctrine. It leads to the reaction, "Either this is false, or a God who is like this is not One I would feel comfortable about worshipping."
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Now the Sirens have a still more fatal weapon than their song, namely their silence ... it is conceivable that someone might possibly have escaped from their singing; but from their silence certainly never.
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Freddy: What did the thief on the cross do to earn his salvation?
Is there a difference between earning salvation in the sense of a fair judge having to conclude there has been no transgression - which is what I believe earning salvation would amount to, and doing what is necessary to be saved?
I think there's a world of difference. Just because earning salvation means perfect obedience in all things does not mean that nothing we can do can affect the outcome.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
Is there a difference between earning salvation in the sense of a fair judge having to conclude there has been no transgression - which is what I believe earning salvation would amount to...
GreyFace: Look up the dictionary definition of "saved." "Salvation" means what it says -- saved . You're making something easy into something hard.
quote:
...doing what is necessary...
Jesus did what is necessary for our salvation. We can do nothing to effect our salvation. As soon as you put conditions on grace, it stops being grace and starts becoming Law.
And I see noone wants to answer my question on the "my work/God's work" salvation ratio. If you're convinced that you have to do something to earn your salvation, then I'd think you'd either know, or want to know, what and how much of that "something" there is.
I mentioned this on the other related topic thread, but...there seems to be a real confusion in this conversation not only between Law and Gospel but between justification and sanctification. Sanctification is the "saved for what " part our relationship with God...our living more fully into the grace that God has already given us, and our giving ourselves over to be Christ's hands in the world. Is that important? Sure it is; not caring about one's sanctification, counting on "cheap grace," is rather like a 30-year-old still in diapers, in a crib, being bottlefed. I want to think we're all for sanctification. But please don't confuse it with justification.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If there is no repentance and faith there is no forgiveness or salvation - however nice you might be.
Faith in Jesus as Savior, 2nd person of the Trinity, incarnate from a Virgin, raised back to conscious life three days after physical death on a cross, Lamb of God whose shed blood was payment in full for the sin deserved by the whole world for an inherited proclivity to sin, disease, and separation from a God who is so holy that he will eternal punish those who commit any sin at all during their finite lives if they do not confess with their mouths this faith? Do I have your complete picture of the faith portion required for salvation from a fate of eternal conscious, painful punishment, or is there more? Have I added or distorted anything with respect to essentials of faith?
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
These seem like a mandate to me. There are many other passages like them.
Jesus mandated that people do and think the right things in relation to God to be saved. This does not turn salvation into a human work because part of this is the acknowledgment that only God has merit and power, so that we can believe and obey Him only from His power, not our own.
Does this fit with your take on these passages?
A better question may be "Does this take on these passages fit with your theology? Or at least can you make it so?"
The distinction I have started to make while reading the gospels is to look at what Jesus was saying in relation to who he was saying it to and when. His teaching was never devoid of context--he DID in fact say many different things to many different people. Some people were healed/saved on contact, others had to wash mud out of their eyes, etc.
When I look at his alleged mandates for the idea of works, I have to think about it. Jews of his day were LOOKING for the formula that would achieve salvation. Pharisees seemed to already have it, but many of these Jews had given up on that style knowing it was lacking. So I think there were two things happening in your quoted passages.
1) I think Jesus' message was meant to close the chapter on the Law's saving power. As if to say, "Yes, I know you all want to save yourselves, but unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you will never reach the kingdom of heaven" which would be equivalent to today saying "Unless you're more righteouss than Billy Graham and Mother Teresa you won't be in heaven." His point, IMO, was that salvation would have to come through other means because we are unable to live righteous enough lives to acheive it on our own. How else can you explain his mandates to cut off our hands, gouge out our eyes, or that calling someone a "fool" will gain us hell? They were meant to say "If you want the Law to save you then you better realize what that entails!"
2) Jesus wanted them to know that if they wanted salvation, they needed to follow HIS commandments, rather than the commandments they thought they should follow. The emphasis was probably on "keep MY commandments" as opposed to any others. What were his commandments--to love God and to love each other. Stop focusing on all of this religiousy stuff and just worry about loving. No amount of good works are going to save you--but I am offering you grace that saves you indefinitely. Nothing you can do can separate you from that grace.
The choice was theirs, to accept him and his grace or reject it. In true human form, they rejected him and nailed him up to kill him.
Then, God said, "You are free to reject me, but I am free too. I reject your rejection."
That's how I see it. For now, anyway. (Ask me again in 10 years...)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyT:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If there is no repentance and faith there is no forgiveness or salvation - however nice you might be.
Faith in Jesus as Savior, 2nd person of the Trinity, incarnate from a Virgin, raised back to conscious life three days after physical death on a cross, Lamb of God whose shed blood was payment in full for the sin deserved by the whole world for an inherited proclivity to sin, disease, and separation from a God who is so holy that he will eternal punish those who commit any sin at all during their finite lives if they do not confess with their mouths this faith? Do I have your complete picture of the faith portion required for salvation from a fate of eternal conscious, painful punishment, or is there more? Have I added or distorted anything with respect to essentials of faith?
One or two little distortions in your list, but it's not believe in the doctrine that saves you. Jesus can save you because of what and who he is. Your side of the covenant as it were is simple childlike trust - trust Jesus to forgive and save you and he will.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Repentance from unbelief is inevitable in nice people in the resurrection when God will give them His gift of faith.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Repentance from unbelief is inevitable in nice people in the resurrection when God will give them His gift of faith.
I wonder if you can give Biblical teaching on this faith that is given to unbelievers after death.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Can you give any that it isn't?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Freddy: What did the thief on the cross do to earn his salvation?
For that matter, what do you think you're doing to earn yours? How do you know you have? What's your "salvation formula"?
LutheranChick,
Jesus saw the thief's heart. He knew what the thief loved, That is the key.
Will you be happy in heaven? Are the loves of heaven and your loves synonymous? That is the question.
Only God can implant these loves in us, because by nature we incline to the loves of self and the world. God implants these loves in us as we turn to Him, or believe in Him, and obey His Word.
This is not "earning" salvation. If it is then even the requirement to "believe" would be "earning" salvation.
But you are not saying how you understand the passages I quoted. Do you disagree that Jesus mandated obedience to His Word?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
1) I think Jesus' message was meant to close the chapter on the Law's saving power. As if to say, "Yes, I know you all want to save yourselves, but unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you will never reach the kingdom of heaven" which would be equivalent to today saying "Unless you're more righteouss than Billy Graham and Mother Teresa you won't be in heaven." His point, IMO, was that salvation would have to come through other means because we are unable to live righteous enough lives to acheive it on our own.
Digory, I don't think that this was His point at all. While it is true that people considered the Pharisees to be righteous, Jesus was quite open in calling them "hypocrites" "snakes" and telling them that they were going to hell. He was not meaning to hold them up as Mother Theresas.
The teachings about salvation being conditional on obedience are so numerous that it is ridiculous to interpret them as saying that this obedience is impossible.
But it is also clear that the power is really in God's hands, and that we can't achieve anything on our own.
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
2) Jesus wanted them to know that if they wanted salvation, they needed to follow HIS commandments, rather than the commandments they thought they should follow. The emphasis was probably on "keep MY commandments" as opposed to any others. What were his commandments--to love God and to love each other. Stop focusing on all of this religiousy stuff and just worry about loving. No amount of good works are going to save you--but I am offering you grace that saves you indefinitely. Nothing you can do can separate you from that grace.
That sounds great, except that He many times talked about what they had to do. The general idea was certainly to love God and each other, but He was more specific than this in condemning fornication, theft, hatred, etc.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
Jesus saw the thief's heart. He knew what the thief loved, That is the key.
quote:
Only God can implant these loves in us, because by nature we incline to the loves of self and the world.
Aha! We can agree on something!
quote:
God implants these loves in us as we turn to Him, or believe in Him, and obey His Word.
Oh, Freddy -- so close and yet so far away. You just said that the human inclination is to not love and care about the things of God. Yet in the very next sentence, you're making salvation contingent upon you own ability to "turn to Him," "believe in Him," and "obey His Word." Good luck with that, dude.
quote:
This is not "earning" salvation.
"Earning points by doing stuff" is a work. Trying to believe or feel or will or do certain things in order to get God to love you is a work .
quote:
If it is then even the requirement to "believe" would be "earning" salvation.
That is indeed true -- if it were up to you to work up to a requisite level of belief or trust or holiness. The Holy Spirit is what creates saving faith in an individual -- not your own goodness or cleverness or iron-willed determination.
Today at lunch I was just reading someone's account of asking God to, in her words, take her sticky fingers off the steering wheel and let God drive. The Holy Spirit is the initiating agent in getting someone to ask God for that gift, and to let go of the wheel. That person's own cognition or will or emotion or "X" amount of good-deed points is not ;in fact, all those things will tend to want to make her keep a death grip on the steering wheel. The Holy Spirit peels 'em off.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Can you give any that it isn't?
Yes
Speaking about the resurrection of the dead, Daniel 12 v 2 says, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
Basically at the judgment, all will appear before the judgment seat and those not known by him will go to hell and those who are known to him and whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be welcomed into his kingdom.
There will be many whose names are not there and they will be turned away.
There is no second chance neither is there any gift of faith given at this judgment seat that will allow those who lived as unbelievers to have a place in the kingdom.
And no preacher should preach that without a heavy heart.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
This is not "earning" salvation.
"Earning points by doing stuff" is a work. Trying to believe or feel or will or do certain things in order to get God to love you is a work .
quote:
If it is then even the requirement to "believe" would be "earning" salvation.
That is indeed true -- if it were up to you to work up to a requisite level of belief or trust or holiness. The Holy Spirit is what creates saving faith in an individual -- not your own goodness or cleverness or iron-willed determination.
Then your own decision has nothing to do with it? Then why are you trying to persuade me?
And what about what Jesus says? No comment? Isn't He the one we believe in?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
1) I think Jesus' message was meant to close the chapter on the Law's saving power. As if to say, "Yes, I know you all want to save yourselves, but unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you will never reach the kingdom of heaven" which would be equivalent to today saying "Unless you're more righteouss than Billy Graham and Mother Teresa you won't be in heaven." His point, IMO, was that salvation would have to come through other means because we are unable to live righteous enough lives to acheive it on our own.
Digory, I don't think that this was His point at all...
Freddy, I'm okay with disagreeing with you on this, now that we understand exactly where we disagree. I'm not trying to say that Jesus held Pharisees up as ancient Mother Teresas, but rather that people would have seen trying to be more righteous than Pharisees as modern people would view trying to be more righteous than Mother Teresa. It just didn't seem possible to them. Jesus even tells them to "Be holy." It is my belief that this was a challenge meant to illuminate our need for grace rather than a calling to actually be sinless.
quote:
The teachings about salvation being conditional on obedience are so numerous that it is ridiculous to interpret them as saying that this obedience is impossible.
Only because the teaching for many years has convinced us to see things this way. This does not mean they aren't TRUE, but it's not unpenetrable proof because it can be explained as learned bias toward the scripture. Turn the interpretation just a little and you can reassess almost every one of those verses, IMO.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
2) Jesus wanted them to know that if they wanted salvation, they needed to follow HIS commandments, rather than the commandments they thought they should follow. The emphasis was probably on "keep MY commandments" as opposed to any others. What were his commandments--to love God and to love each other. Stop focusing on all of this religiousy stuff and just worry about loving. No amount of good works are going to save you--but I am offering you grace that saves you indefinitely. Nothing you can do can separate you from that grace.
That sounds great, except that He many times talked about what they had to do. The general idea was certainly to love God and each other, but He was more specific than this in condemning fornication, theft, hatred, etc.
My two points were conditional on each other. So without the first, yes this is second one is rather nonsensical. He gave more commandments than the one to love, but never in the same type of context as when he answered questions like "what is the greatest commandment--to love... on this hang all of the Law and the Prophets" etc. His other moral mandates are his challenges to our desire to save ourselves through self-righteousness.
The only thing I don't understand is this, Freddy. You say that both the ability to have faith and the ability to do works, and even the ability to truly love, all come from a gift from God--that we are unable to generate these things ourselves. Would you then assert that God grants these gifts to all people? Or would you say that those who end up in hell are there because God chose to withhold the gifts of faith and obedience from them?
-Digory
[ 31. August 2005, 17:51: Message edited by: professorkirke ]
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
Then your own decision has nothing to do with it? Then why are you trying to persuade me?
To quote an American TV character: "Dude, I just do what I'm told." I.E., proclaim the Gospel.
Perhaps, by God's grace, I'm God's agent in helping you understand that grace is grace, and not something you earn.
quote:
And what about what Jesus says? No comment? Isn't He the one we believe in?
Christ's whole life, death and resurrection are God's "yes" to us.
Come to think of it...what about Jesus? Because if salvation is something we can manage ourselves, who needs a Savior? Let's just all follow the 613 Laws in the OT and be done with it. Makes things easier. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) You first.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
God implants these loves in us as we turn to Him, or believe in Him, and obey His Word.
Oh, Freddy -- so close and yet so far away. You just said that the human inclination is to not love and care about the things of God. Yet in the very next sentence, you're making salvation contingent upon you own ability to "turn to Him," "believe in Him," and "obey His Word." Good luck with that, dude.
quote:
This is not "earning" salvation.
"Earning points by doing stuff" is a work. Trying to believe or feel or will or do certain things in order to get God to love you is a work .
quote:
If it is then even the requirement to "believe" would be "earning" salvation.
That is indeed true -- if it were up to you to work up to a requisite level of belief or trust or holiness. The Holy Spirit is what creates saving faith in an individual -- not your own goodness or cleverness or iron-willed determination.
LutheranChik, I think you and Freddy agree more than you think.
Freddy is saying (I think, he'll correct me if I'm wrong) that the faith you talk about as a free gift of God is the same as the obedience he is referring to. If the Holy Spirit can create a saving faith in an individual, as you suggest, then the Holy Spirit should have no problem with creating an obedient heart in you as well.
To claim that we have NOTHING to do with our own salvation only leaves you with two options, as I see it. Either you believe God chooses people for heaven and hell, or else God saves everyone. (There'd be a third option, I suppose, that God simply damns everyone. But I don't know anybody who is arguing for that.)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
Then your own decision has nothing to do with it? Then why are you trying to persuade me?
To quote an American TV character: "Dude, I just do what I'm told." I.E., proclaim the Gospel.
LutheranChick, this is my point. You are not proclaiming the Gospel.
You need to reconcile your beliefs with what Jesus taught.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
GreyFace: Look up the dictionary definition of "saved."
Thank you but I already understand the word quite well. If you do that again, expect to be called to Hell.
quote:
Jesus did what is necessary for our salvation.
You missed out the word "everything", I think. If you meant that, please explain Acts 16:29-31, in particular how if Jesus has done everything necessary, the answer isn't "Nothing, Jesus has already done everything, so forget about it."
quote:
We can do nothing to effect our salvation. As soon as you put conditions on grace, it stops being grace and starts becoming Law.
This tells me that you didn't understand my point, so I'll try again. If I were to offer you a cheque for a million pounds (assuming I had the money) and you took it off me and paid it into your bank, would you think you'd earned a million quid? And if you didn't take it, would you have a million quid?
quote:
And I see noone wants to answer my question on the "my work/God's work" salvation ratio.
I didn't see it, but assuming it's what I think it is, the question is meaningless if free will exists and love cannot be coerced.
quote:
If you're convinced that you have to do something to earn your salvation
Once again, you don't seem to understand the difference between earning something and accepting a gift. Tell me, what do you think we are saved from?
quote:
I mentioned this on the other related topic thread, but...there seems to be a real confusion in this conversation not only between Law and Gospel but between justification and sanctification.
No, there's a disagreement. Perhaps it's because the majority of Christians are not Lutherans, do you think?
quote:
I want to think we're all for sanctification. But please don't confuse it with justification.
I don't but I think you confuse salvation with justification.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
The only thing I don't understand is this, Freddy. You say that both the ability to have faith and the ability to do works, and even the ability to truly love, all come from a gift from God--that we are unable to generate these things ourselves. Would you then assert that God grants these gifts to all people? Or would you say that those who end up in hell are there because God chose to withhold the gifts of faith and obedience from them?
This is a good question. I think that it is central to the whole problem.
It is true that God does everything, because we have no power to do it of ourselves.
We do, however, have free choice. Not that it is inherent in us, but that God gives it to us. We can therefore choose to accept, or not accept, what God would give us.
Even our choice to accept is not from us, and so we have no merit, but yet God attributes it to us.
So we can choose not to accept. The choice is ours because God gives it to us.
That is the reality. The appearance to us, however, and I'm sure that this is everyone's experience, is that we act or don't act, from our own will and power, and according to our own choices. It feels as though we have the power.
Our responsibility, therefore, is to live in obedience to Jesus. If we do this we are saved. If not, we find our happiness in things that are not the things of heaven. This alternative is not salvation. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Even our choice to accept is not from us, and so we have no merit, but yet God attributes it to us.
So we can choose not to accept. The choice is ours because God gives it to us.
That is the reality. The appearance to us, however, and I'm sure that this is everyone's experience, is that we act or don't act, from our own will and power, and according to our own choices. It feels as though we have the power.
Our responsibility, therefore, is to live in obedience to Jesus. If we do this we are saved. If not, we find our happiness in things that are not the things of heaven. This alternative is not salvation.
Ahh okay. This is a much better line of discussion that actually seems like it could have resolution. (Nothing but respect for you, Freddy )
So all choices and freedoms are a gift from God, and even our choice to accept him is given to us as a gift, but God allows us to believe or to at least feel like we are making that decision, right?
Two questions follow for me.
1) To what end does God give us this feeling? It would seem like this would only elicit pride, whereas if we didn't have that feeling to muck up our insides we would not be tempted to believe that it was us who saved ourselves.
2) Why does God only give this gift of choosing him to some people and not all? Or does he give it to all people?
Let me add that the answer to any of these questions could very well be "I don't know" or "I'm not sure why but it's how it seems God wanted to do it" and those would be perfectly acceptable answers to tough questions like this.
I'm just wondering if you have more to this that I'm still not getting.
Respectfully,
Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
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# 9037
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Posted
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Originally posted by GreyFace:
If I were to offer you a cheque for a million pounds (assuming I had the money) and you took it off me and paid it into your bank, would you think you'd earned a million quid? And if you didn't take it, would you have a million quid?
You give humans far too much credit.
The metaphor would have to be played out a little further, I think. One extremely rich man would have to be offering an entire town full of people this million pound sum, if they come to collect the check (or cheque as you crazy foreigners write ) So five or six of the townspeople accept their checks but many don't because they don't trust that it's true, or they don't particularly like what they've heard about the benefactor, etc. Well, then the people who have accepted the check start telling everyone around the town that they have a group of "Check Acceptors" that you can join if you've accepted your million pounds. They begin to tell everyone that they, too, can be rich if only they will accept the check! "Lucky for us we've already accepted it, but you can be rich like us if you will do what we have done! If you want to be in our group, just follow these rules and do these traditions, etc etc and then we'll tell you how to get your check! Or maybe we'll just go get everyone's checks and we'll keep them here and you can come here and accept them" ....
You get my point. At some point the benefactor might say, "Why did I even make acceptance of the check part of the deal? It's completely taken the focus off of the real joy of the thing I've done for these people!" I think you'd agree that it'd be far easier to simply make a direct deposit of a million pounds into everyone's account. That way, everyone is already rich--they can choose to ACCEPT if they are rich or not, but that will not change the fact that they ARE rich. Just whether or not they live like it, using their potential or not.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
1) To what end does God give us this feeling? It would seem like this would only elicit pride, whereas if we didn't have that feeling to muck up our insides we would not be tempted to believe that it was us who saved ourselves.
God gives us this feeling because He is all about love, and love is connected with ownership. People love things that they feel a connection to. People are motivated by a sense of ownership. If people did not feel that it was they themselves that acted, believed, refrained from evil, and did good things - they would not do these things. We are not robots.
The whole point is to form a loving connection between God and us, and this could not happen reciprocally if we could not choose, and did not feel, that love as our own.
This is fundamentally why Abraham was promised a land and a place above all nations. Ownership is important to people.
The importance of not claiming merit, however, is even more essential. We are not God. So the spiritual person claims no merit, and gives it away to God. They nevertheless feel it, and in fact the spiritual person feels the joy of that love more intensely the more they give it away.
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
2) Why does God only give this gift of choosing him to some people and not all? Or does he give it to all people?
God gives everyone the freedom to choose. They really do have that freedom, and so they can also reject God. I'm not saying that the freedom is an illusion. People are free to receive or not receive.
But note that this is not a single decision. The decision is formed over time according to the life that a person leads. All of the things that happen with a person go into shaping him or her into a receptacle of the divine life. The more he is able to receive, the happier he will be. But the shaping happens exactly according to the person's own decisions and desires, making them exactly the kind of person that they want to be.
So God gives everyone the power to choose happiness on their own terms. The power comes from God, but the choice is given to the person. It is not that God chooses for the person, otherwise He would choose for everyone to love God and the neighbor above all things.
A teaching of my denomination, however, is that everyone is actually pre-destined to heaven. Everyone is free, and so in the short run this means that many people will seek their happiness in places other than heaven. But in the long run the forces leading people to heaven are stronger than those leading in the other direction.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
God gives us this feeling because He is all about love, and love is connected with ownership. People love things that they feel a connection to. People are motivated by a sense of ownership. If people did not feel that it was they themselves that acted, believed, refrained from evil, and did good things - they would not do these things. We are not robots.
I agree. I think the only point we differ on is whether or not we have anything to do with the initial decision of whether or not our sins are forgiven/grace is bestowed upon us. I don't think we choose that--I think God freely gives it, regardless of our choice. And any human analogy I can think of for that type of choiceless giving seems to show that grace freely given even in the face of my rejection/denial is truly a miraculous, marvelous thing, and something that would elicit great desires to then go on and, as you say, refrain from evil and do good things.
quote:
So God gives everyone the power to choose happiness on their own terms. The power comes from God, but the choice is given to the person. It is not that God chooses for the person, otherwise He would choose for everyone to love God and the neighbor above all things.
A teaching of my denomination, however, is that everyone is actually pre-destined to heaven. Everyone is free, and so in the short run this means that many people will seek their happiness in places other than heaven. But in the long run the forces leading people to heaven are stronger than those leading in the other direction.
Again, I think we are like-minded except for one point of emphasis. I believe God did choose for us that we should be forgiven and shown grace. But we are free to live like one freed by grace or not. Like Jolly Jape's (I believe) great illustration, the pardon has already been given to us but we can either stop running and begin to live like a free citizen, or we can continue to hide, living under our former sentence's consequences. That is where the choice is IMO. Which makes it easy for me to go along with you and agree that, in the end, all people will realize their pardon if not by God himself catching up with them and explaining, "You are free. Now go and sin no more."
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
You get my point. At some point the benefactor might say, "Why did I even make acceptance of the check part of the deal? It's completely taken the focus off of the real joy of the thing I've done for these people!"
Nice extension of the analogy, but the benefactor's intention may not have been to make everyone temporarily happy but genuinely and permanently rich. Furthermore, the cheque delivery structure might have been his preferred means of getting more people to accept cheques.
quote:
I think you'd agree that it'd be far easier to simply make a direct deposit of a million pounds into everyone's account. That way, everyone is already rich--they can choose to ACCEPT if they are rich or not, but that will not change the fact that they ARE rich. Just whether or not they live like it, using their potential or not.
This is a good analogy for universalist theology but not so hot if there's a possibility that some will be lost, and my understanding (limited as it is) of Lutheran theology is that they're not universalists. So we get back to the benefactor who gives some their million quid and sends the rest into eternal torme... oops, analogy collapsed completely... all on the basis of nothing whatever to do with anything they did, thought, said or chose, because that would mean they earned their million quid.
And getting back to what we're actually talking about, if (a contentious issue) the end point of salvation involves freely loving God and our neighbours with all our being, then I think there's some merit in the argument that it cannot be forced.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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