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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: New blasts in London
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Further to all that, it appears that this policy has been in place for over three years. It seems more than a coincidence that the first (known) use of this policy comes just two weeks after bombings that kill fifty or more and the very day after some more bombings.
This was a policy specifically devised to cope with suicide bombers. I would have been deeply disturbed if it had been used before we had any evidence that the explosions in question were caused by suicide bombers.
I have a great deal to do with the police and can only speak as I find. The vast majority of them are just trying to do their best. Having been out on patrol with them, I often marvel at their politeness and restraint in the face of gross provocation.
If we don't want anyone shot by mistake, we'll have to order them not to shoot at all. Personally, I would prefer that, but I think I'm in a pretty small minority if my conversations at bus stops and on trains are any guide. What we can't demand is "mistake-free" shootings. My experience of the police is that they are more than willing to learn from their mistakes, but no-one can expect 100% error-free performance in a critical situation.
I will be interested to read the report of the investigation into the shootings. If you think the right questions won't be asked, why not go along to the Police Authority meeting when the report is discussed? You can always write to members of the MPA, suggesting questions to them.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
So Robin, if you're not a Christian or -- this is an extrapolation -- a Jew, why did you base some of your arguments on what "God" "said" in Genesis? You've just referred to the story of the Tower of Babel -- why? Unless you believe Genesis is more or less literally true, you can't base what you want to on that story.
John
My various discussions on this thread are degenerating into tit-for-tats on issues far from the topic of of the London bombings so I will stop - but I had to respond to you to say emphatically - NO - I am NOT Jewish.
I have nothing to hide I just want to avoid being labelled because my religious beliefs have nothing to do with the topic. I suppose you could call me a secular Christian if you need a label.
My argument was always that man cannot design a stable society. I could use any of dozens of quote in the Bible when God was clearly displeased with man to make my point - I chose that one.
Something can be true even if it is not "literally true."
peace
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
I have a great deal to do with the police and can only speak as I find. The vast majority of them are just trying to do their best. Having been out on patrol with them, I often marvel at their politeness and restraint in the face of gross provocation.
I'll second that, a few years ago I spent a lot of time with police in South London researching for a project - hanging around the cells, riding in the back of patrol cars. I was impressed by the tact, restraint and good humour with which they went about their work, even in situations that were clearly stressful for them, eg outnumbered in a hostile pub bar, making an arrest from a flat in the North Peckham estate... it was beyond anything I had expected.
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
OK then, my experience of the Met.
I was doorstepping (with another young man) for a General Election campaign with party stickers on my jacket and two plain-clothes police approach us. They flashed (and I mean flashed) their warrant cards and asked what we were up to so we told them.
We didn't think much of it until we got back to party HQ and found that we weren't the opnly party activists to have been stopped! The scretary arranged an interview with the superintendent i/c who denied all knowledge; in other words we had made it all up. As the car the plain-clothes officers had used was in the car park behind the station they were real police who for some reason were stopping and questioning canvassers for one party but not those for at least two other parties!
I lived in South London in the late 1970's and early 1980's and have seen the eccenticities of policing in that area although I (quite genuinely) believe it has improved since then.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
I think policing (like quite a lot of other things) has changed dramatically since the 1970's. The Stephen Lawrence enquiry really was a watershed in policing.
I'd be intrigued to know for which party you were canvassing. My view of the police before I had much to do with them was that they'd all be right-wing. Most of the higher ranks I've met are vaguely left-leaning liberals, often exasperated by the "sweep all the youngsters off the streets" attitude of the press. What irritates them most about governments of whatever party is the constant change of priorities - one week it's all neighbourhood policing "Dixon of Dock Green", the next it's shoot the terrorists on sight!
Mind you, public meetings often get like that as well - I sometimes think everyone wants a policeman outside their home, 24/7 except when they want to get away with something themselves!
I would add that the force I know best is not the Met. In fact, the force I deal with has, by and large, a low view of the Met, but that may be understandable tribal rivallry!
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
OK then, my experience of the Met.
I was doorstepping (with another young man) for a General Election campaign with party stickers on my jacket and two plain-clothes police approach us. They flashed (and I mean flashed) their warrant cards and asked what we were up to so we told them.
We didn't think much of it until we got back to party HQ and found that we weren't the opnly party activists to have been stopped! The scretary arranged an interview with the superintendent i/c who denied all knowledge; in other words we had made it all up. As the car the plain-clothes officers had used was in the car park behind the station they were real police who for some reason were stopping and questioning canvassers for one party but not those for at least two other parties!
I lived in South London in the late 1970's and early 1980's and have seen the eccenticities of policing in that area although I (quite genuinely) believe it has improved since then.
Oh I know, in the 80's I stopped going to a local pub just next door but one to an East London police station because I couldn't stomach the racist crap I kept hearing from off-duty police officers. Which is why I was a tad surprised at what I saw a few years ago. Just have to give credit where it's due.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
My view is: The police are no better or worse than anyone else.
Some are laudable, decent human beings. Some are corrupt, incompetant, brain-dead scumbags.
I a group of people in plains clothes, without anything to identify them as police and carrying guns, asked me to stop then I would run. If I could jump on a train or a bus then I would. More likely to be able to get away from the people with guns.
Am interested in why the police thought he "looked like a terrorist".
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
My argument was always that man cannot design a stable society. I could use any of dozens of quote in the Bible when God was clearly displeased with man to make my point - I chose that one.
My argument is that no society is ever entirely stable and that a liberal, multicultural society is no more "designed" then any other type of society.
I note with interest that you have not addressed these points.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
My view is: The police are no better or worse than anyone else.
Some are laudable, decent human beings. Some are corrupt, incompetant, brain-dead scumbags.
But I thought that the personality type drawn to and recruited by the police is such as to make it more likely that officers enjoy being 'in charge', believe they know what's best (for us and for themselves) and are less likely to be flexible.
Or am I wrong? I'd like to hear from someone who knows of research in this area.
Blessings!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
If you would like to see the kind of person the police are after, go to the police recruitment web site . The online form is designed to screen out those with inappropriate attitudes. You can judge for yourself how successful it's likely to be.
After the Panorama "Secret Policeman" programme, in which racist attitudes in some recruits were highlighted, a major change in police training was set in motion. There a number of pilot schemes in place, including training in a university setting and training in specific police stations (unkindly known as "portacabins out the back"!). All these are designed to alleviate the perceived "canteen culture" of the police, which it is thought was exacerbated by residential training courses in a "closed" environment.
It's true that shrinking violets are unlikely to make good police officers. However, bolshy types who attract numerous complaints aren't that popular with the service.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I don't know if the Met deliberately post black police in largely black areas, but a very large minority of those I see in the streets down our way are black - far more than even a few years ago.
And I now know they also have at least one uniformed and armed policeman with dreadlocks, or at any rate very long braids.
Over the last few weeks I've been seeing what looks like a new kind of policeman (& they always seem to be men). Or maybe its older desk-bound ones coming out of the woodwork. Or some kind of specialist that turns up when bombs fly.
They tend to be older white men, some quite middle-aged. And often overweight. Some of them look a lot like me, except rather harder. (OK, a lot harder) I've even seen grey beards and and shaved heads. They are usually armed, and carrying an awful lot of gadgetry, quite a lot of it very chunky-looking. And they seem to wear high-tech overalls rather than dark blue police uniforms. Black body armour over that, and those ubiquitous yellow shiny jackets over that.
Perhaps they sent all the middle-aged white cops off for anti-terrorist training a couple of years back and put the younger black ones on the beat.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
So Robin, if you're not a Christian or -- this is an extrapolation -- a Jew, why did you base some of your arguments on what "God" "said" in Genesis? You've just referred to the story of the Tower of Babel -- why? Unless you believe Genesis is more or less literally true, you can't base what you want to on that story.
John
My various discussions on this thread are degenerating into tit-for-tats on issues far from the topic of of the London bombings so I will stop - but I had to respond to you to say emphatically - NO - I am NOT Jewish.
I have nothing to hide I just want to avoid being labelled because my religious beliefs have nothing to do with the topic. I suppose you could call me a secular Christian if you need a label.
My argument was always that man cannot design a stable society. I could use any of dozens of quote in the Bible when God was clearly displeased with man to make my point - I chose that one.
Something can be true even if it is not "literally true."
peace
I'm not sure why it's so important to be so emphatic about not being Jewish -- being Jewish isn't a problem, so far as I know, and hardly something to run away from. No one's likely to think I'm Jewish, but I wouldn't be uspet if they did.
My point was only that if you aren't Christian or Jewish, the stories in Genesis are meaningless, and cannot be the foundation for anything. It would be like trying to base a point of view on the story about Jupiter's rape of Ganymede (or his rape of Europa if you prefer). So why cite them as justification for your point of view?
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HopPik:
Hmmm am I being paranoid here or is someone talking about me?
You're being paranoid. Stop it!
quote:
Originally posted by HopPik:
As for how things are "on the ground" in London, whose ground are you talking about Glimmer? This is a multi-faceted, multi-layered place, we none of us can speak for everyone.
Come on, loosen up! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) People getting affronted by specific interpretations of hyperbolic phrases has seen off one thread already recently. I'm speaking of my personal observations and those of my friends and relations. People are going about their business in much the same way as they ever did. There is a superficiality of the 'Diana Drama' in which everyone participates in the current drama by talking about it and there is a little surrupticious looking at young men of Mid-Eastern appearance and their handbags (but as there is a dazzling kaleidoscope of people and their accessories, this quickly becomes fruitless and boring).
I was responding to RuthW's comment about the phrase 'War on Terror' and its ilk.
But, as I'm at the bar so to speak, may I offer something I haven't seen yet in this thread? Namely what would it have been about this young Brazilian man and his behaviour that would give grounds for reasonable doubt that he was desperately attempting to detonate a bomb on a tube train? What could have persuaded the police that he might not be a suicide bomber?
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Just an interesting little story - not proving anything really, except the tendancy for us to lump people together when it's not justified.
My grandson has a parent with pink skin and a parent with very dark skin - so he is dark Afro-Caribbean looking. Late last week he was travelling on the tube with a rucksack - and got some odd looks, and a seat to himself.
Sad.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glimmer:
quote:
Originally posted by HopPik:
Hmmm am I being paranoid here or is someone talking about me?
You're being paranoid. Stop it!
Haha point taken! But maybe having kids is the difference... dunno who does and doesn't here, but after 9/11 I had a daughter (whose school is a stone's throw from parliament) waking in the night crying that she didn't want to die... now I have a 13yr old son who is convinced he won't use public transport forever. Nothing to do with me, I'm the stoical parent always. But these things condition your responses.
As for Mark's comment about having dark skin, oh yes. My wife is Greek Cypriot, I have some Spanish ancestry and our son has the mediterranean look, is often taken for mixed race or middle-eastern. A couple of years ago we were in Zurich, eating on the pavement outsid a McD's (please don't laugh). Son went inside to use the loo, took a while so I went in to check it out, found him being thoroughly intimidated by some local teens... so I stepped in between, said (in probably useless English) "Excuse me this is my son" but anyway they backed off. Was it his colour? I suspect so.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
HopPik, go ahead and be paranoid. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) I was talking about you, if you were the one who used the phrase "there's a war on." But I qualified my remarks by saying I don't know what kind of rhetoric you're getting over there; over here we're getting "war on terror" rhetoric all the time, so that influences my response when someone refers to war metaphorically. Clearly it doesn't read the same way in the UK. But if someone in my local coffeehouse said "there's a war on," I'd figure they'd had their brain thoroughly washed by the Bush administration.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Clearly it doesn't read the same way in the UK. But if someone in my local coffeehouse said "there's a war on," I'd figure they'd had their brain thoroughly washed by the Bush administration.
Actually I don't think anyone here much talks like that, I think I said something like "as my parents' generation used to say" and that's where it comes from. My fault if I was misunderstood, I should have realised it would push buttons.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
HopPik,
Re-reading my post, I should make it clear that my comment about ignoring 'war' posts was about any posts which may use the 'War on Terror' catchphrase to support the idea that a war is in progress.
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
With regard to the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, I don’t know any more of the facts of this case than anyone else, but what it find worrying is that previous accounts of what happened are being challenged.
According to the family the early version of events that was reported was incorrect:
The victim was not wearing a bulky coat, but a denim jacket.
The victim did not jump the barriers at the tube station, he used his Travelcard in the usual way.
He was not carrying a bag or rucksack.
According to at least one eye witness no verbal warning was given by the police. On this point I have to ask whether a warning would be given? One of the reasons given for having to shoot Mr Menezes, even though he was already pinned to the floor of the carriage was that he might have detonated a bomb anyway. If that is the case then a shouted warning while a potential bomber still has the opportunity to escape or move to a more crowded area before detonating the bomb would be a very dangerous thing. Wouldn’t the sensible action on the part of the police be to jump first and warn later?
If this version is true (and I don’t know one way or the other) then it leaves the one “suspicious” thing Mr Menezes did as being running for a tube train. But the train was already in the station when he approached it; pretty much any reasonably young and fit person will run for a tube train that is standing in a station as one comes down the stairs – it quite likely to mean the difference between catching the train and having to wait an unknown length of time for the next one.
I find this matter increasingly worrying.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
Since so much of this depends on facts we don't know, we need to wait for the enquiry to find out. I really don't think anyone can conclude anything in this sort of rumourmill about the facts. I heard some of the early interviews with witnesses on the train, and they were also contradictory about some things, so we may never be clear about exactly what happened. The way the deceased was dressed etc. will be clear from the photographs at the scene and the post mortem.
To be honest, I think the only question worth asking is, "Do we want the police to shoot those who they believe to be suicide bombers through the head without warning?" If the answer is yes, then mistakes will occur, and we will have to accept that. If it is no, then we should have done with it and order them not to shoot, accepting that they might thereby fail to prevent the detonation of a bomb.
Once the facts are known to the best of the equiry team's ability, we can go on to assess the competence/good faith of the actual officers in this case. Before the facts are known, it's pointless.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
A lot of weighty stuff in this thread, and a lot of quite naturally high feelings.
It's a source of grim amusement to me that western cultural reality is daily approaching a full manifestation of Terry Gilliam's dystopian vision in Brazil.
For cathartic effect, I recommend reviewing this masterpiece.
May God have mercy upon us all.
Shalom
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Billfrid
Shipmate
# 7279
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Posted
As someone who lives just off Tulse Hill and not far from the flats where the unfortunate Mr. Menezes lived, I was horrified by the way the police handled this incident.
Most worrying was that Mr. Menezes was allowed(even though the police suspected him of being involved in terrorism/suicide bombing) to board the No. 2 bus! one of the busiest bus routes in south London. Did they think that a suicide bomber would just think "nah, I won't bother blowing up the crowded bus, I'll wait the twenty minutes it takes to get to Stockwell and then blow up the tube"????
I take the 2 regularly, to Brixton and to work, the thought that the police would let a suspected terrorist board the bus gives me the creeps. They missed countless opportunities to stop the man, they hadn't even established who lived in the flats, they actually didn't know who they were looking for....a huge catalogue of errors and poor judgement.
Let's assume the worst case scenario: that a terrorist being watched (and followed) by armed police is allowed to board a bus and then kills himself and others because the cops thought that he was going to get into the tube at some stage???? How moronically stupid can you get?
Jean Charles de Menezes RIP ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) another innocent victim of terrorism.
Posts: 58 | From: London UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Billfrid:
...Most worrying was that Mr. Menezes was allowed(even though the police suspected him of being involved in terrorism/suicide bombing) to board the No. 2 bus! ...
So, they should have shot him when they first spotted him leaving the appartment?
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Billfrid:
...Most worrying was that Mr. Menezes was allowed(even though the police suspected him of being involved in terrorism/suicide bombing) to board the No. 2 bus! ...
So, they should have shot him when they first spotted him leaving the appartment?
sharkshooter, if you are being serious, that's not fair. I didn't see Billfrid saying any such thing.
On Monday I raised a similar question - asking why the police let Mr Menezes get as far as the tube and then to enter the tube system (but I did not suggest they shot him).
Blessings!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Billfrid:
...Most worrying was that Mr. Menezes was allowed(even though the police suspected him of being involved in terrorism/suicide bombing) to board the No. 2 bus! ...
So, they should have shot him when they first spotted him leaving the appartment?
sharkshooter, if you are being serious, that's not fair. I didn't see Billfrid saying any such thing.
What is not fair? Asking for clarification when I think he said something he may not have meant?
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Billfrid
Shipmate
# 7279
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Posted
Just to clarify - they could have shouted 'armed police' as soon as he stepped out the door. If he ran they could have chased after him and stopped him. They could have shot him in the legs. When he boarded the bus, they could have got a police radio operator to contact bus control and tell the driver to pull over and empty the bus. They could have radioed ahead to have Stockwell Station closed etc. etc. My husband (please don't make sexist assumptions about my user name!) works for the Metropolitan Police, and assures me that it's not hard to get these things done.
Posts: 58 | From: London UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
I wondered about this on another thread - what changed between them following without intervention as he got on the bus and later at the tube station deciding that intervention was essential?
I'm absolutely sure the police didn't think 'oh, never mind, he might be a bomber but it's only a bus'
But everybody just seemed to think I was being silly. I still don't understand why.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
sharkshooter
I don't think he said it or implied it or even mentioned any idea of shooting.
He can speak for himself, now, I suppose. Until he does, I still think your post (implication) was unfair.
Blessings!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
I wondered about this on another thread - what changed between them following without intervention as he got on the bus and later at the tube station deciding that intervention was essential?
I'm absolutely sure the police didn't think 'oh, never mind, he might be a bomber but it's only a bus'
But everybody just seemed to think I was being silly. I still don't understand why.
I think it's a perfectly reasonable question, and one which I hope will be raised and answered at the enquiry.
One suggestion thatt occurs to me is that they were trying to get confirmation that he was the suspect for which they were watching the building. Presumably, they eventually got that confirmation - and it was wrong. I think the police would try quite hard not to shoot someone in the head if they could avoid it - the officers concerned are always suspended pending enquiries, and risk criminal charges if they acted improperly.
But as I keep saying, rather boringly, it's hopeless to speculate until we know the facts. If we ever do - we certainly won't know what the poor deceased chap was thinking or why he did whatever he did that finally led to his shooting. Perhaps he did nothing at all, and it was horrible case of mistaken identity.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
...He can speak for himself, now, I suppose. ...
She already did.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Billfrid
Shipmate
# 7279
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Posted
quote:
I think the police would try quite hard not to shoot someone in the head if they could avoid it - the officers concerned are always suspended pending enquiries, and risk criminal charges if they acted improperly.
Moth
Acting on the advice of the Israeli Police, the armed police in the Met now shoot people in the head, so they have no chance of surviving when the police make a mistake.
Posts: 58 | From: London UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Billfrid:
Just to clarify - they could have shouted 'armed police' as soon as he stepped out the door. If he ran they could have chased after him and stopped him. They could have shot him in the legs. When he boarded the bus, they could have got a police radio operator to contact bus control and tell the driver to pull over and empty the bus. They could have radioed ahead to have Stockwell Station closed etc. etc. My husband (please don't make sexist assumptions about my user name!) works for the Metropolitan Police, and assures me that it's not hard to get these things done.
First, they probably didn't have authorization to shoot when they first saw him. He may have just been a person of interest at that time.
Second, if you shoot him in the legs, he detonates the bomb. Too bad.
Third, if the bus pulls over unexpectedly to empty the bus, he dotonates the bomb. Too bad.
Fourth, I apologize for referring to you as "he".
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Billfrid:
Acting on the advice of the Israeli Police, the armed police in the Met now shoot people in the head, so they have no chance of surviving when the police make a mistake.
I take it you mean the "so" in that sentence to be read in the sense of "and as a result" rather than in the sense of "in order that".
But just to be clear, that advice to police officers only applies when they believe the person before them is able and prepared to detonate a bomb in a public place. In any other situation police are still expected to fire at the centre of mass. In any situation (bomber or otherwise) they are only expected to fire at all if their immediate judgement is that if they do not they or members of the public will be in immediate danger of death or injury and no other alternative is available.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
On the question of what he was wearing, and on this thread I've supported the position that anyone wearing a thick coat on a warm day is at least a reasonable object of suspicion in this context... I was taking offspring and friend round an inadequately air-conditioned, sweaty museum this afternoon, and saw a guy doing likewise in a large, quilted puffer-jacket. Seems some like it hot. But he was white Anglo with kids, nobody's going to shoot him.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Billfrid:
quote:
I think the police would try quite hard not to shoot someone in the head if they could avoid it - the officers concerned are always suspended pending enquiries, and risk criminal charges if they acted improperly.
Moth
Acting on the advice of the Israeli Police, the armed police in the Met now shoot people in the head, so they have no chance of surviving when the police make a mistake.
I do know the protocols - I explained them myself further up the thread. What I meant was, the police are likely to carry them out only if they believe they have ample justification, since the certain death of the subject raises the spectre of a murder charge if they act improperly.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Seems they've got 3 of the 4 suspects now, according to BBC News 24 (also live webcast, BTW).
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Good for the police!
Now I do hope my friends in the UK haven't been so foolish as to abolish the death penalty.
In the war against the IRA, groups of innocent people were improperly convicted of heinous crimes for which they would assuredly have been given the death penalty - had it been on the books in the UK.
UK Miscarriages of Justice
quote:
In 1974 Judith Ward was convicted of murder of several people caused by a number of IRA bombings 1973. She was finally released in 1992.
The Birmingham Six were wrongly convicted in 1975 of planting two bombs in pubs in Birmingham in 1974 which killed 21 people and injured 182. They were finally released in 1991.
The Guildford Four were wrongly convicted in 1975 of being members of the Provisional IRA and planting bombs in two Guildford pubs which killed four people. They served nearly 15 years in prison before being released in 1989. (See Tony Blair's apology under The Maguire Seven below.)
The Maguire Seven were convicted in 1976 of offences related to the Guildford and Woolwich bombings of 1974. They served sentences ranging from 5 to 10 years. Giuseppe Conlon died in prison. Their convictions were quashed in 1991. On 9 February 2005 British Prime Minister Tony Blair issued a public apology to the Maguire Seven and the Guildford Four for the miscarriages of justice they had suffered. He said: "I am very sorry that they were subject to such an ordeal and such an injustice. They deserve to be completely and publicly exonerated."
These are just the very high profile cases - but it's worth looking at a few of the individuals involved. Judith Ward was mentally-ill young woman of 25 who was wrongly convicted of an appalling bombing which killed 12 people. It took her 18 years to prove her innocence.
This lady, Anne Maguire - seen here receiving an honour given by the late Holy Father for her christian witness of forgiveness of those who persecuted her - was wrongly convicted of running a bomb factory in her home. It took 15 years for her conviction to be quashed. She'd have been executed under your approach, Mark.
The urge to get convictions in terrorist cases is so strong that they're particularly prone to miscarriages of justice. The police reckon we've got 3 out of the 4 suspects but last week we 'reckoned' that they'd shot a suicide bomber boarding a train in Stockwell - remember how that turned out?
Its really ironic to see people denounce terrorists for what they do and then turn round and advocate approaches which we know have a grave potential to kill innocent people in these circumstances.
L.
[ 29. July 2005, 16:26: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
4 out of 4 (BBC News 24) - the last one arrested in Rome.
Well, at least they were not killed during their capture, whatever one may think of this. There is a fair chance to find out more about their connections and perhaps motives.
I don't think the struggle is over yet (will it ever be?), but it is impressive to see this.
[ 29. July 2005, 16:37: Message edited by: Wesley J ]
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Good for the police!
Now I do hope my friends in the UK haven't been so foolish as to abolish the death penalty.
Ah, I'm missing the point here. The deterrent value to someone keen to blow themselves up in commission of their crime?
We have, of course, 99.9% abolished the death penalty, but we're still hanging on to the softie idea of bringing someone to trial before serving punishment to the proven guilty.
Hmmm, maybe retribution, then? The good ol' buzz from killing something? We could always beat them to death under 'interrogation', of course.
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glimmer:
We have, of course, 99.9% abolished the death penalty
100% these days - it remained a possibility for certain political offences until very recently but that has finally been got rid of. Also we now will supposedly refuse to hand someone over to extradition for something they might be executed for in another jurisdiction.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
100%? Don't we technically still have everybody's alltime favourite - Arson in a Naval Dockyard - (as a capital offence) now restricted to times of war, rather than abolished outright?
Fourth bomber now reported captured in Rome, at his brother's house BTW
Ian
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well said Louise. Less than 100 non-lethal UK miscarriages of justice in the Troubles against at least 1758 lethal miscarriages of justice carried out by the Provos, nearly twice as many as their nearest rivals, the loyalist murderers of 911. I have no idea of the many thousands of non-lethal miscarriages of justice carried out by the IRA, from bombing through knee-capping to punishment beating survivors. It must be in the order of 10,000.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Martin: What's your point?
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Good for the police!
Now I do hope my friends in the UK haven't been so foolish as to abolish the death penalty.
The death penalty was abolished in the UK some time ago. But even had it not been, any idiot would realize that the death penalty would be neither punishment nor deterrent to a willing suicide bomber.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
But as I keep saying, rather boringly, it's hopeless to speculate until we know the facts. If we ever do - we certainly won't know what the poor deceased chap was thinking or why he did whatever he did that finally led to his shooting.
Oh, dear, Moth. Why would we want any facts? It would spoil all this lovely speculation.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Trenchant nay mordant flesh-tearing (sarcasm for the unGreeked) Laura. I fully acknowledge the appalling miscarriages of justice carried out by HMG in my name and would be even further appalled if they had ended in the death penalty. Which I'm for in theory but not in practice.
But the PIRA committed 1758 miscarriages of justice with the death penalty against the UK's 4 + 6 + 7 + ... = << 100 WITHOUT.
It is of course debatable that the standard of UK justice would have been HIGHER if the death penalty had prevailed in such cases.
[ 02. August 2005, 09:45: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Good for the police!
Now I do hope my friends in the UK haven't been so foolish as to abolish the death penalty.
Would that be according to how intelligent they were when they committed the crime, or how intelligent they had become since...?
Isn't it 5/5 they've arrested, not 4/4? Plus two brothers of the one in Italy.
Weirdly, one of them was reported as having been 'scared' when they arrested him. Maybe the urge to kill oneself for the cause comes and goes a little.
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
OK, now that I can be arissed to count, that's 19 NON-lethal (Guiseppe Conlon died of cancer in prison I know and I wept at the portrayal of that lovely man by Pete Postlethwaite in the superb In The Name Of The Father) UK miscarriages of justice against 1758 LETHAL PIRA ones.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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