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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: New blasts in London
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by Foaming Draught:
Good-o, one of 'em's just been shot at Stockwell station.

I too would hold off rejoicing until the facts are known. It is going to be no improvement to replace the capital crime of Being Irish and Carrying a Table Leg with that of Looking Foreign While in Possession of a Rucksack.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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In Sussex we had the special capital crime of Sitting Up In Bed When The Firearms Squad Break Your Door Down.

I'm still amazed & slightly annoyed that the police got away with that one - though in the end they managed to get the Chief Constable on trial, which was something.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lurker McLurker™

Ship's stowaway
# 1384

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Foaming Draught:
Good-o, one of 'em's just been shot at Stockwell station.

I too would hold off rejoicing until the facts are known. It is going to be no improvement to replace the capital crime of Being Irish and Carrying a Table Leg with that of Looking Foreign While in Possession of a Rucksack.
According to the BBC, the police pushed him to the ground and then shot him. I really hope they got the right person.

[ 22. July 2005, 11:43: Message edited by: Lurker McLurker™ ]

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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?

Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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Quite. It's going to be very embarrassing if they haven't. To say the least.

[ 22. July 2005, 11:44: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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It seems like a very odd thing to do - if you've caught a potential bomber, and got him on the ground, surely the thing to do would be arrest and question him? Shooting him at that point would seem like the least useful option.

It seems so odd that surely the police must have known what they were doing and had a good reason for it? He must have still posed a danger in some way?

I certainly hope so, anyway.

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Lurker McLurker™

Ship's stowaway
# 1384

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quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
It seems like a very odd thing to do - if you've caught a potential bomber, and got him on the ground, surely the thing to do would be arrest and question him? Shooting him at that point would seem like the least useful option.


I'm assuming they thought he would blow himself (and them) up given half a chance.

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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?

Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hazey*Jane

Ship's Biscuit Crumbs
# 8754

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quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
It seems like a very odd thing to do - if you've caught a potential bomber, and got him on the ground, surely the thing to do would be arrest and question him? Shooting him at that point would seem like the least useful option.

Yes, questioning would be useful, but if they believed him to be wired up with a bomb, and he's in a confined space with members of the public around, is there not a risk that he might still attempt to detonate it.

Not a judgement call I would like to have to make [Disappointed]

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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Yes, but ... they know more about this than I do but I wouldn't have thought shooting at someone who could be carrying explosives on his person is a good idea. Supposing you set them off.

(Crossposted with HJ)

[ 22. July 2005, 12:16: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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BBC News 24 is saying Police have new guidelines, and are to 'shoot to kill' - even (sorry for the gruesome details!) they are supposed to shoot suicide bombers 'in the head', so that a bomb they may have strapped around them, will not explode.

This chap was obviously running onto a tube train in order to flee, and very possibly to blow himself up, plus the people on the train, AFAIK.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Moth

Shipmate
# 2589

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Standing orders are to shoot suspected suicide bombers dead, by shooting them in the head. There is no requirement for a warning to be given. Any other course of action could lead to the bomb being detonated with massive loss of life.

The difficulty comes if they turn out to be innocent. As an Assistant Chief Constable I was talking to once said, it will be curtains for his career either way if he makes a mistake - if he doesn't order the shooting, and a bomb goes off, it's a catastrophe. If he orders it and the victim is an innocent member of the public, it's a tragedy.

They couldn't pay me enough to his job.

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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.

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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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You're right, it would make sense in those circumstances, if he had a bomb and could still set it off. And of course they could hardly shoot at him before he was on the ground, not in a crowded train.

For some reason I had it in my head that he was yesterday's bomber, not someone actually planning a bombing today (though of course he could be both).

How awful to be the policemen who had to take that decision, too. They must have been petrified.

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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Why was the guy wearing a heavy padded coat??? I know London isn't DC (93F today, bleah!) but isn't it high summer? The BBC front page are reporting that people nearby saw he had wires hanging out of the coat.

But, no, I wouldn't want that job, either.

Firenze et al: The crime of DWB, or "Driving While Black" is well-known in the US.

[ 22. July 2005, 12:39: Message edited by: Laura ]

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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dorothea
Goodwife and low church mystic
# 4398

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This morning I cancelled a planned visit to the capital (arrive Mon-leave Thurs). The visit was to be an extended culture hop with a bit of nature (the heath, the wetlands centre)and the odd church thrown in.

I'd have been alone - my husband is working and my son would rather do his own thing now he's grown - stopping off on the way to my folks in Kent.

Now I'll just be passing through. In some ways it's a bit like giving in to the terrorists but I don't want to keep looking over my shoulder with no companion for support, when I'm off work for the summer break and ought to be chilling.


How do these dudes equate violence with spirituality? How can interpretations of a religion breed such hate? I know there is injustice against Muslim people but this is not the answer. How do these guys become quite so angry and get so ideologised (if that is actually a word - sort of politicised but into a twisted version of religious ideology)? To me this is one of the scariest examples of how belief in absoloutes can go horribly, horribly wrong.

J

[ 22. July 2005, 12:36: Message edited by: dorothea ]

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Protestant head? Catholic Heart?

http://joansbitsandpieces.blogspot.com/

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Moth

Shipmate
# 2589

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Why was the guy wearing a heavy padded coat??? I know London isn't DC (93F today, bleah!) but isn't it high summer? The BBC front page are reporting that people nearby saw he had wires hanging out of the coat.


It's about (sticks head out of office window to check) maybe 70F today, in a rather cloudy London. Certainly not padded coat weather. I'm sitting here with the window open wearing a T-shirt.

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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.

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rugbyplayingpriest
Shipmate
# 9809

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One has to feel for the police who must be shaken up by their actions. It is no easy call to make- but I am certain they would not do something so drastic without VERY GOOD reason.

IMHO we should wait for facts. But truth is desperate times call for desperate measures. And if I thought somebody had a bomb belt on and was rushing to a crowded train - I know the call I would make. Whther I could live with it is another matter

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Why was the guy wearing a heavy padded coat?

Possibly to hide a bomb?

Its T-shirt weather here - about 25 degrees C and hazy sunshine. There was no-one wearing any coats when I came up on the train this morning, though a few hoodies around and one or two jacket-and-tie wearing blokes.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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I'm guessing also that "heavy padded coat with wires hanging out" isn't the latest thing on the runways in Paris for summer in Britain.

Or, um, it certainly won't be now.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

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If you reasonably suspect someone to be wired up to a bomb, then you have to do your best to disable their motor nerves by shooting them repeatedly in the head; otherwise they can detonate the bomb in the act of dying.

Rather bad news if he was just late for his train, though...

[ 22. July 2005, 14:08: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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Wow! They've got CCTV footage of four suspects, and are asking the public to assist...

(News conference live now on BBC 24 TV, webcast available at http://news.bbc.co.uk)

[Mad] [Votive]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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also rather bad news if he was rigged with a dead-mans switch, ie, if he was holding the detonator in the off position, and killing him caused it to blow.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Why was the guy wearing a heavy padded coat??? I know London isn't DC (93F today, bleah!) but isn't it high summer?

For someone used to temperatures in the 90s, London temperatures of mere 70s would probably seem fairly cool. Perhaps he'd recently arrived from warmer climes.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
For someone used to temperatures in the 90s, London temperatures of mere 70s would probably seem fairly cool. Perhaps he'd recently arrived from warmer climes.

There's a bloke I know from Togo who took to walking 6 miles home from work a few weeks ago because the buses were too hot...

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Ruudy
Shipmate
# 3939

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There's a bloke I know from Togo who took to walking 6 miles home from work a few weeks ago because the buses were too hot...

I take it you mean two weeks ago?

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The shipmate formerly known as Goar.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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No, I mean a month ago when the weqather was so foul. Not that its that nice these days.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Living in Gin

Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572

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In reading the most recent BBC article, it seems as if police did the right thing. The guy had apparently already been under surveillance in connection to the earlier bombings, and repeatedly ignored instructions from police. Some witnesses reported that he appeared to be wearing a bomb belt. Now that he's dead, has this been confirmed?

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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
also rather bad news if he was rigged with a dead-mans switch, ie, if he was holding the detonator in the off position, and killing him caused it to blow.

Not exactly high tech. The Mills Bomb and its descendants, the normal hand grenadea used by the British Army for the last ninety years, have exactly that characteristic. If you pull the pin out and hold the lever down, and someone shoots you, it goes off a few seconds later.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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yes, grenades and that sort of thing were exactly what i was thinking of. also that sort of "vest bomb" which one tends to see on crime dramas, with people taking a bank full of customers hostage with explosives, and snipers can't shoot him cause he has a switch. they used that on the x-files once, and i'm sure elsewhere. i figure, if i can think of it, so can the terrorists.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510

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quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
In reading the most recent BBC article, it seems as if police did the right thing. The guy had apparently already been under surveillance in connection to the earlier bombings, and repeatedly ignored instructions from police. Some witnesses reported that he appeared to be wearing a bomb belt. Now that he's dead, has this been confirmed?

I heard a report that nothing was found on him, but that's hindsight. The guy was wearing a thick coat when nobody's wearing much more than a T-shirt or the like at the moment, the police couldn't take a chance on it.

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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw

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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510

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The Stockwell shooting is the nearest to home this has come for us, my daughter travels through that station on her way to and from school. Ah well, term finished today.

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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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They've just arrested someone in Birmingham. "He was reportedly carrying suitcases that may be connected with the London attacks on Thursday." That's interesting - and I've just missed the TV news [brick wall]
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510

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I hear now there's been an arrest in Stockwell, separate from the shooting this morning.

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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw

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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

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quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
One has to feel for the police who must be shaken up by their actions.

Agree!

quote:
It is no easy call to make- but I am certain they would not do something so drastic without VERY GOOD reason.
I wish I was certain. They are not accountable. We cannot ALWAYS trust them (back to Blair and taking us into Iraq).

quote:
IMHO we should wait for facts.
Absolutely - and we need them quickly - why did they shoot him? Tell us the whole story or you will soon lose the public's trust. I'm surely not the only who has not enjoyed seeing the increase in armed police in London over the past months/years.

Blessings!

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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I'm not criticicizing the police, and I hope that more information will come out in due time, but all of this makes me very uneasy. Someone being shot dead by the police - for whatever reason - in Britain? I'm not used to things happening like that here.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Codepoet

Best Bear On Board
# 5964

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I can't imagine anything worse thn having shot someone, and having to live with it for the rest of my life. There isa policeman who will go to bed tonight having had his life take a dramatic change in course during the day. Poor chap.

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It's more important to be kind than to be right.

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Alicïa
Shipmate
# 7668

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quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
I'm not criticicizing the police, and I hope that more information will come out in due time, but all of this makes me very uneasy. Someone being shot dead by the police - for whatever reason - in Britain? I'm not used to things happening like that here.

It is an uneasy feeling. But we don't know it was actually the police. It seems more like a secret service operation to me, the way that they did it.

I am no expert, just how it seems.

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Living in Gin

Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572

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That is my understanding as well. IIRC, London police don't carry firearms, correct? (If so, I wonder if that policy will change in light of recent events.)

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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.

Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peppone
Marine
# 3855

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It's very unlikely to change- or rather, we're unlikely to see the police being universally issued with firearms.

I remember back during the 90s the Met and the City of London police did make some policy changes. Armed police were deployed in patrols, rather than on specific operations, for the first time: and uniformed officers were sometimes seen with holstered weapons, which had not happened before. And of course we started seeing those heavily armed cops at airports.

So I guess we propbably will see a sort of gradual arming of the police- more and more firearms officers at Tube stations, for example. Those armed officers at airports are supposed to be reassuring- and seeing armed cops everywhere else is thought to make the public nervous. But now? Maybe the balance will shift a little.

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I looked at the wa's o' Glasgow Cathedral, where vandals and angels painted their names,
I was clutching at straws and wrote your initials, while parish officials were safe in their hames.

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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There's been an increased police presence at some railway stations since the beginning of July. This was before the first blasts on the 7th. A friend and I both noticed this at different places and commented that there were police patrolling in pairs and searching the toilets. It seems to be random spot checks rather than police being posted daily at particular stations. There are usually about six police at a time (this is Oxfordshire, I expect there are a lot more in London) and sometimes also a van with dogs.

Oddly enough on Wednesday evening the train manager advised us to "maintain eye contact with our luggage at all times" and went into some length about reporting anyone who looked suspicious. I've never heard anyone say that on a train before or since so I did wonder if there had been some kind of general, but not detailed, knowledge that something might be about to happen on public transport.

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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

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Oh, yes, they are armed.
Mrs Wuntoo and I were remarking last evening about the massive increase in the number of police in London who have been trained to use firearms (the TV pictures show them in large numbers).
They are a very common sight around the main government buildings. They are scary.
Many police vehicles have guns fitted into their boots ready for trained officers to make use of them.
I doubt that we will ever return to unarmed days and I expect, before too long, for most Met. police to be carry small arms all over the city.
More's the pity, IMO
Blessings!

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
There's been an increased police presence at some railway stations since the beginning of July.

I'd assume that from the end of June there were increased police numbers trying to intercept any known anarchists passing through London towards Scotland for the G8 summit. Plus general policing of the crowds coming and going for the Live8 concert. With the spotlight on the UK at the time, even without any specific intelligence re: terrorists there were plenty of reasons to have lots of police around.

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Mark Wuntoo
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Police are not trained 'overnight', I hope and believe. The presence of so many with arms in the last few weeks confirms our observation over many months of large numbers of police with guns 'at the ready' standing along Whitehall, Victoria Street and Parliament Square (to mention three main locations).
In East London, I have an impression that armed police can more quickly be deployed these days (to deal with incidents in homes etc) along with helicopters (5am for 30 minutes over our house one day last week). [Paranoid]
Blessings!

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Ruudy
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quote:
Originally posted by Peppone:
So I guess we propbably will see a sort of gradual arming of the police

This saddens me. As an American living in London I have loved the fact that EVEN the police are unarmed. It's one of the nicest things about London relative to large American cities.

Yesterday at Baker Street Station, where I was changing busses, I watched some 20 to 30 yellow-coated police going door to door searching buildings and flats. Presumably, for terrorists.

It struck me that it would be very difficult or impossible for US police to obtain right of entry to US homes. They would have to appeal to the courts to obtain search warrants on an address by address basis, demonstrating probable cause. Searches must be reasonable and specific. This means that a search warrant must be specific as to the specified object to be searched for and the place to be searched. Other items, rooms, outbuildings, persons, vehicles, etc. would require a second search warrant.

Question for UKers: Can UK police search a home without a warrant? I mean, not that there's any contraband lying around here or anything....

And another thing (perhaps better suited for Hell). I can't believe it's been over twenty-four hours now and we still have not been given a reasonable explanation for a man being shot to death while fleeing arrest after he was apprehended. The most that has been said is that he was "directly llinked" with the London bombs investigation and that he refused to obey instructions the police....

AND YOU KILLED HIM?!?!?!?! WTF? Make a statement, damn it. Tell us what happened, authorities! Explain yourselves. This is bullshit.

[ 23. July 2005, 15:30: Message edited by: Goar ]

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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There are any number of possibilities for silencing him. He may have been an informant who suddenly got cold feet and had too much information on how and who the police are investigating. Doubtful if the details of why he was being followed will ever come out.

There have been over 300 arrests in Pakistan alone, since July 7, related to the ongoing investigations.

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Mark Wuntoo
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From the BBC web site: "But Pc Norman Brennan, head of the Protect the Protectors group, said the recent attacks proved all officers should be armed."

See what I mean? I know some police have been saying this for years but I suspect it's coming quite soon - perhaps by stealth, which seems to be the case at the moment.

Blessings!

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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My understanding is that under various anti-terrorism acts that police can search people and properties without obtaining a search warrant.

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Hazey*Jane

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Breaking news - the guy they shot dead had nothing to do with the bombings.

Oh dear [Frown] [Disappointed]

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St. Punk the Pious

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quote:
Originally posted by Hazey Jane:
Breaking news - the guy they shot dead had nothing to do with the bombings.

Oh dear [Frown] [Disappointed]

Could someone link that? I don't see it on the Yahoo or BBC news sites.

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Hazey*Jane

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Sorry, it wasn't online at time of posting. Here.
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Louise
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Shot man not connected to the bombings

L.

oops crossposted.

[ 23. July 2005, 16:22: Message edited by: Louise ]

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St. Punk the Pious

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I've just now heard it on MSNBC as well.

Sad indeed.

But I don't blame the police. They had good reason to believe he was a terrorist. They had to make a split-second decision. It's an awful situation all around.

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