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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is Mormonism true?
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
i'm still waiting to see mormons boys ample evidence of any truth to the book of mormon. because as far as i'm concerned, thats where it all falls apart.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Could we take a short break from arguing Mormon theology........I'd really like to know how it is that Mormonism has become such a fast growing belief system. What is the attraction? Why is it that mainstream Protestantism struggles to hold its own while Mormonism seems to flourish?
Believe it or not, people sometimes convert because the religion they were raised in was tougher than Mormonism. One person I know that was raised a Catholic in South America, is one that I know of.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
...Here are a few things I think attract people to the church:
1)The promise the families can be together forever - not untill "death do we part."
The same for a Christian family. Except Christians don't baptize the dead to achieve this goal.
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
2)A strict alternative lifestyle
Like conservative Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
3)Sometimes pure curiosity of the Temple - ie: join just to see what the Temple is like.
Interesting. But you don't like it if they try to leave later. Sounds like a high price to pay for curiosity.
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
4)If you're partner is a Mormon and you want to get married, there's more of a chance that you will marry in the Temple, therefore you will have to be a baptized member for atleast one year.
Coercion. Good. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
sorry, just reread my post, i do of course mean "mormon boy's assertion", not "mormons boys"
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Mad Geo, how is South American Catholicism "tougher" than Mormonism? Mormonism seems very strict, very straight-laced, works oriented, no gin, no cigarettes, no even coffee or tea. It also seems to require an unquestioning belief in what seems to me like 19th century home-made science fiction (Sorry about that, Mormon Boy and Moroni). At least South American Catholics can flavor their Catholicism with a touch of voodoo and/or a soupcon of Candomble.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
I truly don't know. ALl I know is this friend of mine that was a catholic converted as a youngish girl because she saw is as easier than Catholicism. I was stunned too when she told me that. She was clearly a believer so I'm sure she was impressed with the message as well.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I truly don't know. ALl I know is this friend of mine that was a catholic converted as a youngish girl because she saw is as easier than Catholicism. I was stunned too when she told me that. She was clearly a believer so I'm sure she was impressed with the message as well.
Youth find the LDS church VERY interesting. There's many, many dances scattered over weeks of the month, and it's a fabulous place to meet new friends. Most of the closest people to my eldest son have joined the church, probably just for the social life!
nicolemrw: What kind of evidence were you looking for?Physical? Theological? Scriptural? It's too broad a subject to discuss all in one post.
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
mormon boy is quoted above as saying:
quote:
But the fact of the matter is that there is ample anthropological and archological evidence that the Book of Mormon is an accurate record
(mind you, thats what someone else said he said, not a quote from him directly).
i want to know what evidence he was refering to.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Here are a few things I think attract people to the church:
1)The promise the families can be together forever - not untill "death do we part."
2)A strict alternative lifestyle
3)Sometimes pure curiosity of the Temple - ie: join just to see what the Temple is like.
4)If you're partner is a Mormon and you want to get married, there's more of a chance that you will marry in the Temple, therefore you will have to be a baptized member for atleast one year.
Much the same as the common reasons for gpoing to Christianities older daughter religion, Islam. (Though of course theologically LDS is further from Christianity than Islam is) Especially the bit about the strict lifestyle. Lots of people seem to like having firm rules of behaviour (even if they break them!)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
quote: Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
quote:
That wasn't the point of my post anyway--it was, rather, to state that being a member of an apostate church doesn't necessarily make one an apostate.
Then it was a point that was made in an unnecessarily inflammatory way.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
I honestly don't see how it's more imflammatory than telling Mormons that they are not Christians, which was the burden of the posts I was responding to. I was trying to be at least semi-conciliatory, in fact, but obviously I failed, so I apologize.
Timothy
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Nicole, that is a quote from me directly. And I stand by it. Unfortunately Friday is my busiest day of the week, and I have not been able to put together a decent list of links yet, but it is coming.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
please make it unbiased links if possible.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Organmeister, I think the obvious answer to your question is that those people find something that they are looking for in the Church.
Of course it is my belief that what they find is the Truth and the peace that comes through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But I know that not everyone here shares that opinion ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I think that any Church that wants to duplicate our success would do well to try and discover what the something really is that people are finding when they investigate the LDS Church, because as Sharkshooter so abley demonstrated, the "more practical and tangible" things that bring some people in to begin an investigation of the Church are duplicated in plenty of other places, so there has to be something deeper.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Youth find the LDS church VERY interesting. There's many, many dances scattered over weeks of the month, and it's a fabulous place to meet new friends.
Wow! what kind of religion is this that promotes dancing but disallows tea and coffee? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) One very different to the one I grew up in, that's all I can say! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 13. May 2005, 19:56: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Youth find the LDS church VERY interesting. There's many, many dances scattered over weeks of the month, and it's a fabulous place to meet new friends.
Wow! what kind of religion is this that promotes dancing but disallows tea and coffee? One very different to the one I grew up in, that's all I can say!
Yea, the world has really gone astray these days
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Marriage is obligatory, however men and women are no different when it comes to exaltation. We read in D&C 131v2:
And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3And if HE does not, HE cannot obtain it.
NB also:
Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
Therefore, when they are out of the world, they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. D&C 132:15-16
I've just read through this thread with interest, and although I don't have enough theological knowledge to involve myself with it deeply, I'd like if I may to barge in to ask a couple of questions the above raises in my mind. Hope that's OK with everyone.
Firstly, consider the case of a child who dies before reaching marriageable age. Is that child eternally barred from achieving exaltation because through no fault of their own they never had the chance to marry? Or similarly, consider a person without the mental capacity to contract a marriage with full understanding. Is that person barred from the celestial kingdom because they were never able to marry?
Secondly, the last paragraph above seems to me to imply that people who have married other than through the LDS are destined in eternity to be the servants of those who do have an acceptable marriage. Have I got that right?
These are not rhetorical questions, nor am I trying to be inflammatory in any way, but I'd appreciate it if someone could clarify that for me.
(returns to lurkers' corner)
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Sisterlove, I appreciate your questions and speaking for myself, I welcome all honest questions and reasoned debate. I am not going to quote your whole question again since I am going to try and answer it all at once.
We believe that a marriage performed by someone with the authority to seal for time and all eternity just as was given to Peter (Matt 16:19)
quote:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
is a Gospel Ordnince and, as you read in the scripture that EM quoted, is required of us.
There are many situations where people do not have the oppurtunity to participate in this ordinance, either through lack of an acceptable partner, early death, lack of capacity to get married through a mental or learning disorder or such, or they just never get to hear about the possiblity because of geography or culture or even becuase they lived on the Earth at a time when the oppurtunity was not available.
The ordinance of Baptism has the exact same problem, it is required, but the vast majority of God's children never have the oppurtunity to be Baptized.
It is unfathomable to me that a Heavenly Father that loves His children as much as I know that He loves us would require something of us that He knows many of us will never get the chance to do and then use that against us when we come before him.
To this end, God has provided the ability for us to perform those ordinances in proxy for those who have passed from this life without having done them. As was done in New Testament times as Paul mentioned to the Corinthians (1 Cor 15:29)
quote:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
This is the majority of the work that is done inside an LDS Temple.
As you may know, the LDS Church is one of the world leaders in geneological research. In addition to the work commissioned by the Church, each member is encouraged to research our own families and to use that research to ensure that our own forefathers have the necessary ordinances performed on their behalf.
At no point does this proxy work remove the individual's agency in the matter. They still have the choice to accept or reject the work done for them, so just because your distant cousin has your great grandmother baptized by proxy, that doesn't force her to become "Mormon". That is not what happens and that is not our belief.
So whether a person was never able to be baptized or to marry or a married couple was never able to be Sealed, that oppurtunity will be provided. As I said, I don't believe that a loving Father would have it any other way.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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boppysbud
Shipmate
# 4588
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Could we take a short break from arguing Mormon theology........I'd really like to know how it is that Mormonism has become such a fast growing belief system. What is the attraction? Why is it that mainstream Protestantism struggles to hold its own while Mormonism seems to flourish?
What the mormons here are failing to tell us here is that there is quite the revolving door in the mormon sect. The fact is of all the people they RE-baptise more than half leave within the space of one year. The mormons make it very hard to escape their organisation. There are two ways to escape mormonism. One is by a very humiliating bishop's court resulting in excommunication, the other is by requesting that your name be removed from mormon membership records. This sounds easy, but in fact is very difficult to accomplish and is resisted and delayed to the utmost, the mormons continue to harrass them sending home teachers and others.
So there are millions who are claimed as members by the mormon organisation who have not darkened a mormon chapel doorstep in years. These people just disregard all the mormon bishop's courts and name removal and move on, often to Christian churches. There are many others who are so turned off by mormondom that they become atheists and agnostics. But the mormons still claim them all as members.
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Posts: 255 | From: High Desert, West Texas, USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Could we take a short break from arguing Mormon theology........I'd really like to know how it is that Mormonism has become such a fast growing belief system. What is the attraction? Why is it that mainstream Protestantism struggles to hold its own while Mormonism seems to flourish?
The problem for "mainstream Protestantism" is that it requires people to think for themselves. Mormonism, like some forms of Christian fundamentalism and certain other religions, lays it all down for you. In fact, thinking for yourself will get you into deep, deep trouble, as many Mormon intellectuals have discovered to their pain.
Mormonism posits that men (no women need apply) can buy their way to godhood. It's very works-based. Do x + y + z, and you'll get your "exaltation." Mormonism has preserved enough of the trappings of genuine Christianity -- and strongly discourages investigation into the true history or facts of the belief system -- so most converts never really learn what they've gotten themselves into. All they know (or think they know) is that they've bought a road map to E-Z salvation.
Oh, yeah, and Family Values for Eternity.
We're getting an unusually obvious look at the system with proselytizers like Elder Moroni and Mormon Boy, reading from their scripts, and checking with their bosses when someone asks something outside the usual. You can be sure that there are folks at higher levels reading over their shoulders, and making sure they stick to the approved answers.
The other thing to remember about Mormonism is that while it's really easy to get in, it's really difficult to get officially out. If you want out, you have to submit to a trial that will leave you excommunicated. It's a humiliating, ugly process, and most people don't bother. So they're officially on the rolls for life, boosting the numbers for the credulous.
As an example: I know an Episcopal priest who was raised Mormon, but converted to Christianity as a teenager. His whole family followed him. But since they never went through excommunication, they're still officially counted as Mormons for the purposes of the hierarchy in Utah.
Rossweisse // thinking is harder, but it pays off
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
please make it unbiased links if possible.
Now that's a loaded and inflammatory statement. This is not Hell.
Just trying to keep things reasonable.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
duo seraphim, i have addressed your post on the thread louise started in the styx.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Ooooh - I would try to get excommunicated if I was a Mormon converting to Christianity, I'm thinking alcohol, electrodes and tea with the bishop! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
It would be a bit of a laugh actually
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Ooooh - I would try to get excommunicated if I was a Mormon converting to Christianity, I'm thinking alcohol, electrodes and tea with the bishop!
It would be a bit of a laugh actually
-103
It isn't hard to disfellowship yourself from the church at all. It's true, if you want your name taken from the records, you have to go to a disciplinary hearing. But if you fail to do that, and you express your requirements in writing, the church (by law) must destroy your personal records. The church, however will NEVER destroy your information with regards to the church - ie: temple ordinances, baptism, name etc.
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Marriage is obligatory...
So you don't believe that people can be called to celibate, single life?
[ 15. May 2005, 02:17: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I know one ex-Mormon (he's now a Unitarian) who actually went through the whole process of getting officially removed from the membership rolls (most don't bother). It took him two years (and a lot of intense bureaucracy) to get a letter from the church stating "You are no longer a member of the Church of LDS."
Timothy
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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plaintif cry
Apprentice
# 9271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
If being a Christian means worshipping a false representation of the true God, having statues in churches, and missing a big gap from the gospel, then I don't want to be any part of it! Whether you call us Christians or not is absolutely irrelevant to us. The whole point of Mormonism is NOT to have lots in common with "Christianity" since we believe other churches have apostasized. Being classed as the same group as such other groups would defeat the object of Mormonism respectively.
For me... I am a Christian in the dictionary term, but I am certainly not a Christian in the traditional interpretation of the word.
I do think this has shown your colours pinned to the mast EM. It goes something like this "We are Christian and you lot (apostates) aren't!" You claim misunderstanding and persecution for LDS beliefs by the apostate church. Yet consistently these beliefs fall down when measured against the "traditional" Christian scripture. When asked to answer why it is that Mormon credibility has no substance (archeology, anthropology and theology) outside of the BoM, Mormon literature and scholarship you are strangely silent (although you have posted a great deal). In the Christian world at large the claim to have the truth and all others to be apostate has usually one conclusion. Far from not being a traditional kind of Christianity (there are many whose Christianity ain't traditional but still quantifiably orthodox), Mormonism stands out as a Cult. This is not said to condmen or berate. It is said to ask you to weigh up LDS in the light of the fullest gospel (- JS, BoM and LDS Doctrine). GBY ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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I wish I had the answers but I haven't got a clue. I just depend on Jesus as my path from feeling blue.
Posts: 34 | From: newcastle-under-lyme | Registered: Apr 2005
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
I do think this has shown your colours pinned to the mast EM. It goes something like this "We are Christian and you lot (apostates) aren't!"
This is not what I meant at all. I understand that you are Christians, and always will be. My point is that ... for me to be saved (or as we believe exalted), do I need the title of a Christian? For me, it suffices to say that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. I am not a Christian, if Christian means being parallel with other Christian churches. I am a Christian, however, in the way that I follow Christ.
quote:
You claim misunderstanding and persecution for LDS beliefs by the apostate church. Yet consistently these beliefs fall down when measured against the "traditional" Christian scripture. When asked to answer why it is that Mormon credibility has no substance (archeology, anthropology and theology) outside of the BoM, Mormon literature and scholarship you are strangely silent (although you have posted a great deal).
If you ask me a SPECIFIC question regarding a "weakness" in the Book of Mormon, I will answer it for you. The whole subject of the "fallibility of the Book of Mormon" is simply TOO big to comment on generally. Give me some specifics, and I will certainly answer them for you.
quote:
In the Christian world at large the claim to have the truth and all others to be apostate has usually one conclusion. Far from not being a traditional kind of Christianity (there are many whose Christianity ain't traditional but still quantifiably orthodox), Mormonism stands out as a Cult.
If you read the criteria for a cult, Mormonism COULD fall in to it for only one reason: the use of "masonry" or "secret combinations" (which I refute) in the Temple Ceremony. The truth is, only about 5% of the Temple Ceremony contains any resemblance to Masonic rites - and this 5% is actually seen in a completely different light compared to as Masons see theirs. Can you justify your reasons for labelling Mormonism as a cult? You ask me for justification, so I will ask you where you get your ideas from.
quote:
This is not said to condmen or berate. It is said to ask you to weigh up LDS in the light of the fullest gospel (- JS, BoM and LDS Doctrine). GBY
I understand. I hope we can have a civilised discussion on these things! (-:
PS: Somebody asked if "marriage" is an essential thing for "celibate" people. It is not. But "celibate" people are those who cannot (biologically) have babies. We read in scripture:
"Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
(Eunuchs are celibate people in a nutshell.) The Eunuchs that have been made by men, or made themselves eunuchs for personal reasons rely upon the mercy of Christ. However, there is no justification in the bible for bishops and priests not to be married - as we have discussed on another thread.
[ 15. May 2005, 15:47: Message edited by: Elder Moroni ]
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Traveller
Shipmate
# 1943
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
Nicole, that is a quote from me directly. And I stand by it. Unfortunately Friday is my busiest day of the week, and I have not been able to put together a decent list of links yet, but it is coming.
Is this list of links still coming? I am not sure I can stand the suspense much longer.
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I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33
Posts: 1037 | From: Wherever the car has stopped at the moment! | Registered: Dec 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
If you ask me a SPECIFIC question regarding a "weakness" in the Book of Mormon, I will answer it for you. The whole subject of the "fallibility of the Book of Mormon" is simply TOO big to comment on generally. Give me some specifics, and I will certainly answer them for you.
Some specifics:
There is no evidence in MEXICO that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in GUATEMALA that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Nicaragua that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Costa Rica that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Belize that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Honduras that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in El Salvador that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Panama that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Ecuador that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Venezuela that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Bolivia that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Colombia that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in French Guiana that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Guyana that any of it happened.
There is no evidence of Suriname that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Brazil that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Peru that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Chile that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Uruguay that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Paraguay that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Argentina that any of it happened.
Feel free to answer any one (or more) of those very specific allegations.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
I just read on this site that over 4000 changes have been made to the Book of Mormon since it was written by Joseph Smith. Is there any truth to this, and if so, how is this reconciled with the idea that the BoM is supposedly the inerrant word of God?
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
Mormon Boy, thanks for your response to my question, I'm sorry I haven't been back sooner. I'm really not sure I could be comfortable with the idea that what happens to me once I enter the presence of God is dependent on something being done on my behalf on earth, possibly without my knowledge. (It doesn't seem to me to be the same as praying for people who have died, which I know some people practice, and I don't have a problem with.) I'm puzzled as to how the teaching on the necessity of marriage squares with 1 Corinthians 7, which seems to imply that Paul regards marriage as an inconvenient necessity to counter immorality rather than something with deep significance for eternity.
I'm also concerned that it still seems to me that you're implying a hierarchy in heaven, with some of us consigned to servant status because we never married in the correct way. Anyway, thanks for taking the trouble to respond.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Gin, I have heard that many times, but the number always changes. 4000 is actually the largest that I have seen. I hope you noticed that they didn't list the changes or even categorize them. It didn't take long when I looked into this to find that the changes that were referenced were things like corrections to printing errors, the addition of footnotes and chapter headers, the division of chapters into verses, and some corrections to punctuation and grammatical errors mostly made by the Prophet Joseph Smith himself.
The fact that changes have been made is used to try and show that the Book of Mormon is changed to say whatever we want it to say. Nothing could be further from the truth, the only real difference between the originally published Book of Mormon and what we use today (which you can find online here) is that today's edition is easier to read, easier to cross reference with the Bible, and just plain easier to use.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Mormon Boy
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# 9409
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Posted
SisterLove I am not sure how that reconciles with 1 Corinthians 11:11:
quote:
Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
I will have to read through chapter 7 some more to see what comes up.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Mormon Boy
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# 9409
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Posted
Rossweise you said:
quote:
The problem for "mainstream Protestantism" is that it requires people to think for themselves. Mormonism, like some forms of Christian fundamentalism and certain other religions, lays it all down for you. In fact, thinking for yourself will get you into deep, deep trouble, as many Mormon intellectuals have discovered to their pain.
What? First, this doesn't seem to be the right forum for that type of statement, and Second, Nuh Uh, my people are way smarter than yours are, neener neener.
and then you said:
quote:
We're getting an unusually obvious look at the system with proselytizers like Elder Moroni and Mormon Boy, reading from their scripts, and checking with their bosses when someone asks something outside the usual. You can be sure that there are folks at higher levels reading over their shoulders, and making sure they stick to the approved answers.
I can't speak for EM because I have never met him (although I seriously doubt it for him either), but I am just a dude that spends too much time on the internet and likes to talk about the Gospel.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Mormon Boy
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# 9409
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Posted
PC you said:
quote:
consistently these (LDS) beliefs fall down when measured against the "traditional" Christian scripture
Where do they fall down? I have posted a lot of replies to a lot of questions, and have used the Bible to support my beliefs. Other than the post by SisterLove about marriage, I haven't seen any Scriptural response to my posts or any Scripturally based reasons that my beliefs may not be true.
As I have said many times now, I believe the Bible to be revelation from God given through His Apostles and Prophets and I would be very interested to know where my beliefs don't stack up.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
Rossweise you said...Nuh Uh, my people are way smarter than yours are, neener neener.
No, that's not what I said at all. Intelligence doesn't have as much to do with it (I know some very intelligent people who've forked over thousands to the Scientologists; I know intelligent people who reject evolution, which is a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory; I know intelligent people who habitually watch daytime TV) as having the ability to compartmentalize things in one's brain.
Lots of solid evidence has been offered on this forum as to the lack of objective truth in the Book of Mormon, but you and EM -- and no one is calling you stupid! -- both manage to dismiss it without really engaging it.
quote:
...I am just a dude that spends too much time on the internet and likes to talk about the Gospel.
I believe the first part -- no question there! (Don't all of us here tend to spend too much time on the Internet?) But you're talking about Mormonism, not the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ -- and we can be sure that someone in some part of the Mormon hierarchy is keeping an eye on these discussions and making sure that the Mormons here keep it orthodox. I'm sure they see it as being for your own protection and that of the religion you're endorsing, but that's just the way the outfit works.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Mormon Boy
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# 9409
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Posted
ROFL!!! Ross, that last post would have been one of the funniest things I have read in a long time if only you weren't serious. You sound just like Dale from King of the Hill (and I pray you are at least familiar with the show so you know what I mean, if not you can at least read his official bio here) but it doesn't begin to do him justice.
You really just have no clue what the LDS Church is all about if you think that anyone in a leadership position has anytime to sit around and scour the internet to make sure that some yabo like me doesn't go posting something that doesn't fit in with the party line.
We have a lay clergy, which means that the vast majority of the Church leadership who work in their assigned callings as Teachers, and local leaders and Bishops and Stake Presidents, etc. receive no pay for their service. Each of those people have to work a regular job to support their families, and then spend what ever time they need to perform in their assigned role. If you were to attend an LDS Church service this Sunday (which I welcome you to do, I would be happy to help you find your local congregation) none of the people in the Chapel with you would be paid in anyway for their service. And many of them would have spent 10, 20, 30 even 40 or more hours, in addition to taking care of their families and working at their jobs, in Church Service. That really doesn't leave much room for anyone to waste time watching the internet to make sure people don't get out of line.
And before you try to say that we have people who are hired to do that, the Church has way too many real things to use its money on to waste it on something so stupid as that.
And as far as this goes:
quote:
But you're talking about Mormonism, not the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
As I have said a number of times now. I follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in the Holy Scriptures. That begins with the Bible and is only enhanced by the Book of Mormon, which serves as another Testament of Jesus Christ. If you follow another Gospel that is not based on the Bible, then you are correct, we do adhere to two very different Gospels.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
But you're talking about Mormonism, not the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ -- and we can be sure that someone in some part of the Mormon hierarchy is keeping an eye on these discussions and making sure that the Mormons here keep it orthodox. I'm sure they see it as being for your own protection and that of the religion you're endorsing, but that's just the way the outfit works.
Move off this, Rossweisse - you've already said this and received a reply. Repeating this statement is moving into the area of personal attack. The first part of your response was a little too personal too, Mormon Boy.
There's enough here to discuss without getting sidetracked.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
[ 17. May 2005, 03:42: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
I apologize if I was inappropriately personal in Purgatory. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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boppysbud
Shipmate
# 4588
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Posted
Mormon boy, where is your list of the many links proving the historic, archeological, geographic, veracity of the stories in the Book of Mormon?
We have been waiting for several days now, no answers are forthcomming?
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Posts: 255 | From: High Desert, West Texas, USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
You sound just like Dale from King of the Hill (and I pray you are at least familiar with the show so you know what I mean...)
I don't watch television. (I prefer to waste time online, where I can REALLY get into trouble, rather than vegging in front of the boob tube.)
quote:
You really just have no clue what the LDS Church is all about if you think that anyone in a leadership position has anytime to sit around and scour the internet to make sure that some yabo like me doesn't go posting something that doesn't fit in with the party line.
That has not been my experience. My experience is that someone in SLC is always keeping a finger on the pulse.
And I'm still waiting for your responses to the problems with the BoM.
Rossweisse // sorry, Duo...
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
You really just have no clue what the LDS Church is all about if you think that anyone in a leadership position has anytime to sit around and scour the internet to make sure that some yabo like me doesn't go posting something that doesn't fit in with the party line.
That has not been my experience. My experience is that someone in SLC is always keeping a finger on the pulse.
<snip>
Rossweisse // sorry, Duo...
Hosting
Repeating a personal attack you have recently been called for was not smart. Leave it alone. Now.
Duo Seraphim,Purgatory Host
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
And the personal attack on me....?
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
And the personal attack on me....?
quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
I apologize if I was inappropriately personal in Purgatory.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
And the personal attack on me....?
...was called by me and Mormon Boy apologised for it.
Take it up in the Styx.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
ADMIN MODE
Rossweisse,
Intentionally disregarding an official instruction from a host is one of the fastest routes to a suspension. Instead of simply turning the matter over to the admins, Duo Seraphim has generously given you the option of taking your complaint to the Styx. Whether or not you do so, you may not continue to argue the decision here and you may not continue to suggest that the LDS church is looking over Mormon Boy's shoulder when he posts. That topic is closed.
Scot
Member Admin
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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boppysbud
Shipmate
# 4588
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Posted
When you do get it all organised MB, PLEASE identify all of your links. Especially those to FARMS and FAIR. Both of those sources are far from independent and objective.
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Posts: 255 | From: High Desert, West Texas, USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
And for those of you who said there is no connection between Ancient America and the Middle East, a connection between Egypt and Peru
There's not even a good parallel here, let alone a connection.
The ancient Egyptians had no practice of burying children with canes full of gypsum in their hands.
Neither did they have any practice of putting mummified hearts into gypsum.
Egyptians did not mummify the heart separately - they normally left it in place, though they would put the other organs in canopic jars .
Wallis Budge died in 1924 - his work is badly out of date. Things have moved on a long way in Egyptology since then.
quote:
He is credited with writing over 140 titles, many of which are still widely reprinted today. Many of his works, however, did not receive careful attention to detail; and were flawed even by the standards of his day.
Mummification simply means preserving a body or body part by shielding it from some of the effects of decomposition - not wrapping someone up in bandages and using Egyptian funerary procedures. It's done by different techniques in different parts of the world. You get mummies in China, Japan and Tibet too - all done by different processes. To leap from 'mummification' to 'there must be some Egyptian connection' is, to put it mildly, not warranted.
All this shows is that Egyptians and Peruvians preserved the hearts of the deceased in completely dissimilar ways. The only glimmer of similarity is that both cultures thought the heart was somehow important - however that is such a common ancient belief - found in so many variants in so many different cultures - as to prove no connection whatsoever.
The journalist who wrote this article made an absolutely nonsensical leap when he compared the two cultures on such a flimsy basis. You notice none of the scientific personnel he spoke to suggested or endorsed this. It's a flight of fancy on his part.
Louise
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I just read on this site that over 4000 changes have been made to the Book of Mormon since it was written by Joseph Smith. Is there any truth to this, and if so, how is this reconciled with the idea that the BoM is supposedly the inerrant word of God?
There is truth that MANY changes have been made to the Book of Mormon. However, of the 3786 changes that have been made, only 4 are changes in the actual wording / phrasing of the text. The rest are changes to the documentation - the verse numbers.. etc. You see, when the Book of Mormon was printed, it was just a plain book - in the form you would find a novel. There were no verse or chapter numbers. The majority of the changes were changes to the verses. There have also been changes to the order of the books themselves, since strictly speaking there is no set order. The Book of Mormon is an abridgement (see The Words of Mormon).
The reason for changing the words in the minority was given through revelation to the first presidency. These changes were made to make the text more clear.
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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