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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What if I'm right?
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
What if ...
Adam and Eve were real live created (sans bely button) people who sinned and caused humanity to need salvation. Old Testament people were saved by following the guidelines set out in scripture, specifically regular sacrifices for their sins. Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, died to pay the price for sin and is the only way into Heaven. Heaven is where we praise God for eternity. There is a real Hell. Satan lives there - it is not a nice place. Anyone who does not acknowledge that Jesus is Lord here on earth will endure eternity separated from God.
Have you seriously considered it? What would you do/change if you were suddenly, somehow, convinced of it? How would it affect you?
I don't want this to be a discussion of whether or not it is true. Try to stick with the "what if" scenario. Also, it would be nice if tangents such as "what about the lost tribes in the Amazon jungle" were left out.
[ 08. January 2006, 22:02: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
As a matter of conscience I'd have to make sure I went to hell, even though it might be horrid. Such a god as you describe would be an abomination. I would not want to sink to his level, but would seek to remain true to the values I learnt from my parents and others.
I'd make it quite clear to this god what I thought of him and, futile though it might be, I'd try to witness to a better way.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
. Also, it would be nice if tangents such as "what about the lost tribes in the Amazon jungle" were left out.
But the premise asks for these questions to be raised--as well as the question "what if a person bore so much abuse in the name of this God you are talking about that they cannot hear the Name without referring it to the abuse"?
[ 01. June 2004, 23:20: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Have you seriously considered it? What would you do/change if you were suddenly, somehow, convinced of it? How would it affect you?
I think I'd blaspheme God and kill myself.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
As a matter of conscience I'd have to make sure I went to hell, even though it might be horrid. Such a god as you describe would be an abomination. I would not want to sink to his level, but would seek to remain true to the values I learnt from my parents and others.
I'd make it quite clear to this god what I thought of him and, futile though it might be, I'd try to witness to a better way.
I'm with you hatless. I distinctly remember the time I sat in our car, driving to St Davids in Wales, Mrs linzc asleep, and I was mulling over just this question - what if the conservatives are right. I came to the conclusion that a God like that was not worthy of my worship and I would take the consequences.
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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I am not even going to theoretically reject God on the basis of this premise, because I so staunchly believe that the incarnation/crucifixion/resurrection proves that God is on our side.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Oh, yes, I've seriously considered it. I grew up with that flavor of Christianity, and believed it.
But to me, it simply doesn't wash. It makes God into a blood-thirsty monster. I can think of many deities I'd rather worship.
IMHO, the only kind of deity worth worshipping is one who is *totally* about love, healing, growth, restoration, etc. That deity is present in Christianity, but mixed in with a lot of crap.
If the OP version of Christianity were true, my options would be as follows:
--Try to contact God and help Her change.
--Get Her on good meds.
--Coup d'etat.
--Ignore Her.
--Look for a better reality, and take people there.
--Become Buddhist. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
My opinion can be found in the pithy quote I cribbed from...psyduck...for my sig below. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
What if ... quote:
Adam and Eve were real live created (sans bely button) people who sinned and caused humanity to need salvation.
Then "God" has deliberately deceived us by making the world in such a way as this does not appear to be true.
quote:
Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, died to pay the price for sin
Then "God" has allowed a huge body of damnable heretical thought and writing to survive from the patristic period - the Christus Victor tradition.
quote:
There is a real Hell. Satan lives there - it is not a nice place. Anyone who does not acknowledge that Jesus is Lord here on earth will endure eternity separated from God.
"It is not a nice place"? Surely you backtrack on this one! Did you mean to say, "It is a lake of eternal fire where the damned feel the unbearable pain of burning over every square inch of their bodies, day and night for ever and ever"? In that case, I would gladly be damned by your Monster-God, rather than damn myself by using as much as one breath to praise him.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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glassnobody
Apprentice
# 5501
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Posted
This may seem like a silly question, but how does everyone who has replied to this post (or other like-minded people) form such a liberal view of God without ignoring a lot of scripture?
I guess I ask as someone who was raised with the OP conservative view in mind and people forcing it down my throat always had a bible verse or 10 to seemingly back up what they were saying... and honestly some of the verses seemed kinda disturbing in retrospect.
Posts: 33 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
Not at all silly, glassnobody. I was thinking the same thing.
I can only speak for myself, but what I'd do would be worry myself sick over all the people I loved who were going to Hell, try to dissuade them with years of crass evangelism, become very unpopular at school and miss out on a normal teenage sex life.
Oh, and offer myself for missionary service to said lost tribes, on the premise that my view of the truth was right and theirs was wrong.*
IF it were that way, of course...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
*Fortunately I only gor as far as Belgium before I began to use my brain a little more.
[ 02. June 2004, 08:30: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I would repent like anything, sell all my posessions (or better still, give them all to charity), attend church every day and follow every single teaching of Christ's which is recorded.
I'd also try to get all my friends/family/etc who didn't believe to convert.
It's all very well not liking it on a philosophical level, but if it were proved to be true we'd be talking about the fate of our eternal souls. I'm not prepared to spend eternity in Hell for the sake of an ideal.
I guess it's a good job I don't believe it...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
How would you define 'acknowledging that Jesus is Lord', given the comment that Not everyone who says unto me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven? Also bear in mind the parable of the sheep and the goats.
I don't have a problem with the idea that sacrificing animals was a way through to God in the past - our ideas about God have changed. I'm sure God helped us to approach him in ways that we could understand - this very phenomenon helps to explain why your postulations are hogwash. And what difference does the literal truth (or not) of the creation myth make? Who cares whether Adam and Eve had belly buttons? Does God care what we believe about that? Perhaps he'd prefer us to use our brains. I'm sure, if you look carefully, you'll find that he has provided you with one.
What if.... you started using it? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) How would that change your ideas about salvation?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
Perhaps he'd prefer us to use our brains. I'm sure, if you look carefully, you'll find that he has provided you with one.
What if.... you started using it? How would that change your ideas about salvation?
Qlib. I was on the verge of starting a thread calling you to Hell. But I thought I'd give you a chance to retract this ridiculous insinuation that to believe the Bible is true one must have disengaged one's brain. Grow up.
Apology please.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
It's not his beliefs - creationist or otherwise - that I object to, but his patronising assumption that no one else but him* has ever thought this one through.
* or, at least, none of us liberals.
[ 02. June 2004, 11:20: Message edited by: Qlib ]
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Where has he made that assumption? I don't see it myself...
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I think he's assuming we haven't because he asks quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Have you seriously considered it? What would you do/change if you were suddenly, somehow, convinced of it? How would it affect you?
FYI leprechaun, I do think the Bible is true. I just don't think it's true in the same way that you think it's true. And I object to being asked how I would change my (no doubt) wicked heedless liberal ways if I thought this idea through *seriously*.
Should you still want to call me to Hell, I'm sorry to say that I'm not likely to be available before this evening (if then).
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
What if ...
Adam and Eve were real live created (sans bely button) people who sinned and caused humanity to need salvation. Old Testament people were saved by following the guidelines set out in scripture, specifically regular sacrifices for their sins. Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, died to pay the price for sin and is the only way into Heaven. Heaven is where we praise God for eternity. There is a real Hell. Satan lives there - it is not a nice place. Anyone who does not acknowledge that Jesus is Lord here on earth will endure eternity separated from God.
Have you seriously considered it? What would you do/change if you were suddenly, somehow, convinced of it? How would it affect you?
I don't want this to be a discussion of whether or not it is true. Try to stick with the "what if" scenario. Also, it would be nice if tangents such as "what about the lost tribes in the Amazon jungle" were left out.
Sharkshooter, beyound merely having considered it, the scenario which you present is what I honestly and sincerely believed for a number of years.
I guess it might be nice if it were true, but I really find it rather implausible and incoherent tbh.
When I believed it, I was terrified of going to hell and was afraid to think for myself in case it lead me into error and I thus went to hell. If you could convince me that I was correct to start with and that I have now lapsed into error, I think I would want to know how God could create Lucifer knowing what would happen.
I'm not sure that I would re-commit to being a conservative evangelical. I might, but I rather suspect that I wouldn't. Tbh. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
Wasn't the church founded on just this assumption? So if it WERE true...er... we'd have the Christian Church. No?
So where does that lead us, eh? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
I am amazed to see people say they would gladly go to hell. I find that unfortunate. Can your beliefs not deal with what would happen if you found out you were wrong on the facts?
It has been asked of me, what if. I assume you mean, what if I am wrong in this. Fair question. Well, I have thought about that a great deal for the nearly three years I have been posting on these boards. If I am wrong, it would not change one thing about the way I live my life. I try to live my life as an witness to Jesus - that would not change.
So, if your theology cannot cope with being proven wrong on facts, and that is how I read some of the responses, it is not for me.
Qlib asked:
quote:
Does God care what we believe about that?
Yes. Otherwise we wouldn't have a Bible.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Quidnunk
Shipmate
# 2901
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Posted
If...
I think I would search the scriptures for why.
Why is Hell there and what purpose does it serve?
Why would God send people to Hell?
What has he done to stop that happening?
I think if I were to believe the scripture I would have to believe I would find the reasons there too.
I do believe that just because something's hard to understand and/or justify doesn't mean it's not true.
Posts: 152 | From: Nam | Registered: Jun 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkshooter
I am amazed to see people say they would gladly go to hell. I find that unfortunate. Can your beliefs not deal with what would happen if you found out you were wrong on the facts?
It isn't that. It isn't about not being able to accept that we may have got some of the facts wrong.
I think it is because people find the God mentioned in your OP to be unworthy of worship, as do I. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
Papio quote:
I think it is because people find the God mentioned in your OP to be unworthy of worship, as do I.
And me. And it rather invites the question: what do people who do/can believe in such a God really think of him? Can you all honestly say - maybe you can - that you don't think such a God morally inferior to normal, well-adjusted people; to yourselves in fact?
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
Can you all honestly say - maybe you can - that you don't think such a God morally inferior to normal, well-adjusted people; to yourselves in fact?
Yes. Next question.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
If... God were really like that,
And... He was the only God doing the rounds,
And... He controlled your eternal destiny,
Then... wouldn't you be even more keen to stay in His good books than if He was just going to let you into Paradise anyway?
I know I would.
.....
This reminds me of a Peanuts cartoon I saw a while back. Schroeder (I think) was saying to Charlie Brown: quote:
If Santa really exists, he's going to be far too nice to not bring me any presents this Christmas, so I don't have to worry about being good! Right?
Charlie Brown replied: quote:
Wrong! But I don't know where...
I wonder sometimes if some people's idea of God isn't all that dissimilar from Schroeder's idea of Santa.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I wonder sometimes if some people's idea of God isn't all that dissimilar from Schroeder's idea of Santa.
This would be a different discussion if we were talking universalism vs the possibility of *anyone* missing out on eternity with God. I pray for the former and believe the latter.
But I'm interested to see how sharkshooter and Leprechaun can square the idea of God loving all those billions who never heard Jesus' name (because, for instance, they were born before Jesus) with him sending them to eternal torment as a consequence.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I am amazed to see people say they would gladly go to hell. I find that unfortunate. Can your beliefs not deal with what would happen if you found out you were wrong on the facts?
It's not a case (at least for me and I suspect this goes for the others who've posted similarly) of some kind of petulant, "Oh I wasn't right but don't want to admit that I am wrong so I'll go to Hell."
You see for me, if God really was like that - he wouldn't be a God of love, but just a cosmic bully - no different from Q or any of the other godlike creatures they are forever running into in Star Trek. And you shouldn't pander to cosmic bullies.
quote:
Papio said:
If... God were really like that,
And... He was the only God doing the rounds,
And... He controlled your eternal destiny,
Then... wouldn't you be even more keen to stay in His good books than if He was just going to let you into Paradise anyway?
But from my point of view if he were like that he wouldn't be trustworthy anyway. You might sneak into heaven by 'staying in the good books' (can a God really be fooled by someone with that attitude) only to discover that a few short millenia later he changes the rules or gets bored of the lot of you or whatever. You don't pay off terrorists. Ever.
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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
But I'm interested to see how sharkshooter and Leprechaun can square the idea of God loving all those billions who never heard Jesus' name (because, for instance, they were born before Jesus) with him sending them to eternal torment as a consequence.
That, I fear dear Grey Face, would take us down the road to the glue factory.
My response was merely to the epistemological issue that Psyduck raised - I am not in the habit of drawing my conclusions about God by asking myself what I would have done in the situation. Because he's in a slightly different position than me in relation to the rest of humanity.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
Wasn't the church founded on just this assumption?
I don't believe the church was founded on all the assumptions found in the OP. It was founded because a bunch of people discovered that in Jesus Christ they had found someone who showed them in a unique way what God was really like. Some of what he had said drew on the common heritage of Judaism - a religion which had already spent some 1800 years struggling to understand God and growing and developing as it did so. Some of what he had to say seemed at odds with their religious heritage. They spent the next 100 years or so struggling to make sense of the ways in which this new group was related to their old religion. A fellow named Paul helped by explaining the 'Jesus' story in ways which they might not have thought about but made a lot of sense and did indeed draw on many aspects of their religious heritage.
These followers of Jesus found themselves realising that something about him made him worthy of their worship, even though they were strongly committed to worshipping only the one God they believed in. They spent the next 400 years struggling with that one.
The records of much of the remembering, thinking, struggling and reshaping were recognised by many people as having a special touch of God - a special insight into the nature of the God in Christ who they'd all started to recognise.
And their spiritual descendants continue to struggle with understanding God-in-Christ; drawing on the recognised authority of the early writings; and proclaiming their belief in the fact that God has not left them alone in the absence of Christ but continues to be a part of the struggle with them through the work of his Spirit.
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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
But I'm interested to see how sharkshooter and Leprechaun can square the idea of God loving all those billions who never heard Jesus' name (because, for instance, they were born before Jesus) with him sending them to eternal torment as a consequence.
I dealt with that in the OP to the extent I am going to on this thread.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
I don't like quoting myself, and I only ever do it rarekly and briefly, but this time I can't be bothered to find different words for this to the ones I used on the Jonathan Edwards thread - not because I think they're wonderful, but because life's too short.
quote:
For my money, I think that [this sort of thing] has a lot to do with what Freud calls the 'superego', the largely unconscious part of the mind which is the implanted authority of parental - especially father- figures, which regulates our behaviour towards others. The odd thing, which Freud remarks on, about the superego is that its severity is often way beyond anything that children experience in their actual parents, and that often people with gentle, kindly parents have ferocious, condemning superegos that keep sending them little messages about how unworthy they are, how awful compared with other people, how utterly undeserving and disappointing, etc.
Actually, though, I think that religiously, [this kind of thinking] has a lot to do with Melanie Klein's very different understanding of the superego. She sees this as kicking in much earlier than Freud does (he - surprise, surprise - understood it to arise from the resolution of the oedipus complex, when the (male) child finally realises that it's not going to be allowed to murder its father and have sex with its mother; this is a gross simplification, of course...) Klein, from her work with very young children, came to the conclusion that there is a primordial superego that basically takes the infant's rage at the world for not gratifying it, and its wanting to bite, tear and destroy, and reflects it straight back at the child, in guilt and fear, so that the horrors of apocalyptic wrath which the baby feels towards the world which thwarts it, being unbearable inside the baby, are thrown out into the world as horrible, threatening monsters.
That's why you can't persuade an infant that there's no monster under the bed by just looking, or even (as I've heard done!) by sawing the legs off. The monsters are there, they are incredibly real, and they are in the way the infant understands the world.
Cut to the chase - I think that an awful lot of people think that their superego is God. Whether it's the wounding, censorious, debilitating Freudian superego, or the ferocious, unlimitedly wrathful Kleinian superego. And this conviction is reinforcd for me when I read the more wrathful bits of Christian tradition, like the Edwards passage in the OP, or even bits of Scripture. It's the quality of the fear that makes me tend to Klein rather than Freud in some of these instances.
I think we need to be gentle with so many of the great figures of Christian tradition. They were as human as we are. And maybe we need to have the guts to look at the monstrous God that haunts parts of our tradition and say "Actually, that's not God at all. That's a monster from under the bed..."
It's clear to me that we choose how we're going to read the Bible, and that we choose what we make of our traditions. Even being bound by these things is a choice of a particular kind. (I'd say it's a kind of abdication.) Sometimes we choose to believe in an unworthy and unscriptural picture of God -a nd I think that the portrayal in the OP is both unworthy and unscriptural - because we're too scared not to. It's a lot like capitualting to the bully, because the possibility that he won't hurt us if we do as he wants is slightly more inviting than the certainty that he will if we don't. That's the way the holocaust worked, and all totalitarian systems work the same way. So does Really Bad Religion.
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
The problem is more serious than simple "Huh. I was wrong. So stuff it Plplplplpl!".
It is that we are commanded to Love God first of all. I cannot therefore jump through the hoops that the OP version of God sets up, because whatever I can force myself to accept about God, if He's like He's described in the OP, I can't love Him, so I'm still screwed. Better to remain in honest and open rebellion against the cosmic sadist.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
KArl: Libveral Backslider: quote:
Plplplplpl!
Thanks, dude! I always wondered how that was spelled...
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted By Linzc
Papio said:
If... God were really like that,
And... He was the only God doing the rounds,
And... He controlled your eternal destiny,
Then... wouldn't you be even more keen to stay in His good books than if He was just going to let you into Paradise anyway?
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Do you mind not misqouting me?
and do you mind not pulling stuff out of your arse that I blatently didn't say in order to pointless attack a straw man and then blame me?
Kindly apologise, you dick. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Infinite Penguins.
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My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by linzc:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I am amazed to see people say they would gladly go to hell. I find that unfortunate. Can your beliefs not deal with what would happen if you found out you were wrong on the facts?
It's not a case (at least for me and I suspect this goes for the others who've posted similarly) of some kind of petulant, "Oh I wasn't right but don't want to admit that I am wrong so I'll go to Hell."
You see for me, if God really was like that - he wouldn't be a God of love, but just a cosmic bully - no different from Q or any of the other godlike creatures they are forever running into in Star Trek. And you shouldn't pander to cosmic bullies.
If it's a choice between being bullied and pandering to the bullies (which are the only two options in this case), I'd rather pander.
quote:
quote:
Papio said:
If... God were really like that,
And... He was the only God doing the rounds,
And... He controlled your eternal destiny,
Then... wouldn't you be even more keen to stay in His good books than if He was just going to let you into Paradise anyway?
But from my point of view if he were like that he wouldn't be trustworthy anyway. You might sneak into heaven by 'staying in the good books' (can a God really be fooled by someone with that attitude) only to discover that a few short millenia later he changes the rules or gets bored of the lot of you or whatever. You don't pay off terrorists. Ever.
Firstly, I said that - not Papio.
Secondly, why would He not be trustworthy for setting up rules and then enforcing them? I'd consider it to be less trustworthy to say "Here are the rules, but it doesn't matter if you break them or not".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Hmm, who's a dick now. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Just realised that you simply misattributed the qoute.
I apologise. (I would have changed the first post but I was too late to do so)
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Infinite Penguins.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
It is that we are commanded to Love God first of all. I cannot therefore jump through the hoops that the OP version of God sets up, because whatever I can force myself to accept about God, if He's like He's described in the OP, I can't love Him, so I'm still screwed. .
None of us can love God. His Spirit brings any of us to love him. As he is. "With God all things are possible" etc.
I think, what you mean is (and correct me if I'm wrong - I know you will) that you don't want to become the type of person who loves a God like that. Which is an entirely different matter altogether.
[ 02. June 2004, 13:56: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
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FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
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Posted
Papio I apologise for misattributing that quote to you, especially as we are on the same side over this one. And I accept your apology - thanks. It's always tricky when you reply to a second person on the same post because you can't just use the quote button. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:
Marvin said:
why would He not be trustworthy for setting up rules and then enforcing them?
Because ISTM that the rules lack justice, let alone the grace and mercy He says that he's all about. So he's unjust and deceptive. How can I trust him?
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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
Marvin the Martian: quote:
If it's a choice between being bullied and pandering to the bullies (which are the only two options in this case), I'd rather pander.
Doesn't that reduce the Christian faith to being in the bully's gang? Are you really that happy with the idea of God as a bully? Do you really think that bullying's OK as long as God does it?
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
For the record, I'm only playing Devil's Advocate here myself. I think it's a worthwhile discussion.
Let's take a hypothetical example. A man has said a number of times that he's not in the least bit interested in "all that God crap", but that on his deathbed he's going to "repent like a bastard, just in case". Should he not bother?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Let's take a hypothetical example. A man has said a number of times that he's not in the least bit interested in "all that God crap", but that on his deathbed he's going to "repent like a bastard, just in case". Should he not bother?
Of course he should. Because he has already shown by his words and actions that his conception of God is the cosmic bully who saves you if you jump through the right hoops. So his deathbed repentance is acting in integrity with his beliefs - jumping through the hoop so the bully will forgive him.
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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
Marvin the Martian: quote:
If it's a choice between being bullied and pandering to the bullies (which are the only two options in this case), I'd rather pander.
Doesn't that reduce the Christian faith to being in the bully's gang? Are you really that happy with the idea of God as a bully? Do you really think that bullying's OK as long as God does it?
Personally I see it as being more like the law on earth. In such a case "the bully" is the Judge, and "his gang" is all the law-abiding citizens of the world. Hell is jail in this example, except you get let off if you swear never to do it again.
Whereas if you flaunt your lawbreaking and then spit in the Judge's face because you think he is "unjust", you're going down my friend.
As to your last question - as far as I'm concerned, God can do what he darn well likes. He built this place, He controls it, who am I to question His decisions based on my own pitiful idea of morality or justice? I don't believe He would ever act in such a way, but if He actually did, I'd be shocked, but I sure as hell wouldn't call Him out for it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
It is that we are commanded to Love God first of all. I cannot therefore jump through the hoops that the OP version of God sets up, because whatever I can force myself to accept about God, if He's like He's described in the OP, I can't love Him, so I'm still screwed. .
None of us can love God. His Spirit brings any of us to love him. As he is. "With God all things are possible" etc.
I think, what you mean is (and correct me if I'm wrong - I know you will) that you don't want to become the type of person who loves a God like that. Which is an entirely different matter altogether.
I mean both. I mean:
(a) such a God is not loveable
and
(b) I don't want to become the sort of bully's sycophant who is capable of loving such a God.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
Marvin the Martian: quote:
Personally I see it as being more like the law on earth. In such a case "the bully" is the Judge, and "his gang" is all the law-abiding citizens of the world. Hell is jail in this example, except you get let off if you swear never to do it again.
That's fascinating. It seems to me to echo very closely Walther Benjamin's subtle point that in modernity, the Law is founded on violence, which is masked from us by our willingness to believe in the institutions of the Law and of society. What you've done, inadevrtantly perhaps, is to unmask this, and to point out that the modern concept of God - and I think that the OP is steeped in modernity! - is itself also founded on violence.
It seems to me that the postmodern fate of such a God will be like the postmodern fate of the Berlin Wall - people will just say "Stuff this for a game of soldiers!" and walk away. The only people left will be people who have some sort of need to be bullied.
Of course, from a Christian perspective, Jesus Christ killed this violent God stone dead by dying on the cross. After the resurrection, all is different. Except for those who are still being bullied. For the rest of us - as Ernst Kasemann says - Jesus means freedom.
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Thank you, Linzc. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Leprechaun and Shark Shooter - I'm curious. You both broadly affirm the God of the OP? (please don't be offended if you don't, I am just trying to suss out people's positions here.).
Do you understand why some of us find such a God unattractive?
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
(b) I don't want to become the sort of bully's sycophant who is capable of loving such a God.
Well, thanks for that lovely description of an evangelical Christian.
If then, the issue is "stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la la because you don't want to change the way you are to fit in with the creator of the universe..." well you can hardly blame him for being angry, can you?
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
Shark Shooter - I'm curious. You ... broadly affirm the God of the OP? (please don't be offended if you don't, I am just trying to suss out people's positions here.).
Yes. That is why I titled the thread the way I did.
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
Do you understand why some of us find such a God unattractive?
Yes. But I disagree with the bases on which such a conclusion rests.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
Sharkshooter: quote:
Yes. But I disagree with the bases on which such a conclusion rests.
What do you perceive them to be? I can only see that you disagree with them because they refute the proposition that anything that God does must be good, lovely and moral simply because it's God doing it.
At least, if any other power in creation behaved like this, or established an order like this, surely you'd feel free to criticize? Although Marvin the Martian's quote:
As to your last question - as far as I'm concerned, God can do what he darn well likes. He built this place, He controls it, who am I to question His decisions based on my own pitiful idea of morality or justice?
seems to suggest not - and I'm not sure where his last two sentences leave him: quote:
I don't believe He would ever act in such a way, but if He actually did, I'd be shocked, but I sure as hell wouldn't call Him out for it.
Even Abraham had a go at God on the grounds of the morality of what he proposed to do to Sodom in Genesis 18.
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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