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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: What if I'm right?
phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As to your last question - as far as I'm concerned, God can do what he darn well likes. He built this place, He controls it, who am I to question His decisions based on my own pitiful idea of morality or justice? I don't believe He would ever act in such a way, but if He actually did, I'd be shocked, but I sure as hell wouldn't call Him out for it.

I think we might be getting to a definitional point of "God" here. I don't think anyone is questioning God on our own ideas of morality or justice, I think we're questioning based on God's ideas of morality and justice as we have found them in scripture. What I think the more "liberal" posters seem to be saying is that God, by definition, could not be internally inconsistent, which, if we take scripture seriously, would be the case when the OP is compared with the scriptural witness as interpreted by the people making this argument. As usual, it all comes back to hermeneutics.

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"Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
There is a real Hell. Satan lives there - it is not a nice place. Anyone who does not acknowledge that Jesus is Lord here on earth will endure eternity separated from God.
Did you mean to say, "It is a lake of eternal fire where the damned feel the unbearable pain of burning over every square inch of their bodies, day and night for ever and ever"?
You can take it that way if you wish. I was not trying to make a detailed theological argument - rather simply setting the stage for the hypothetical scenario I proposed.

My intention was not to debate the theology, but the ramifications of it in a person's life.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
That's fascinating. It seems to me to echo very closely Walther Benjamin's subtle point that in modernity, the Law is founded on violence, which is masked from us by our willingness to believe in the institutions of the Law and of society. What you've done, inadevrtantly perhaps, is to unmask this, and to point out that the modern concept of God - and I think that the OP is steeped in modernity! - is itself also founded on violence.

I'm not enough of a philosopher to argue in such terms. I've just never seen what use rules are without punisment to back them up. Why obey them otherwise?

quote:
It seems to me that the postmodern fate of such a God will be like the postmodern fate of the Berlin Wall - people will just say "Stuff this for a game of soldiers!" and walk away. The only people left will be people who have some sort of need to be bullied.
People are walking away.

quote:
Of course, from a Christian perspective, Jesus Christ killed this violent God stone dead by dying on the cross. After the resurrection, all is different. Except for those who are still being bullied. For the rest of us - as Ernst Kasemann says - Jesus means freedom.
Then why do we still have to repent/go to church/fast during lent/give to charity/any other myriad things "good Christians" should and shouldn't do? If Jesus means freedom, why are there still rules? For show?

quote:
Even Abraham had a go at God on the grounds of the morality of what he proposed to do to Sodom in Genesis 18.
Abraham had two things I don't - a heck of a lot of guts, and the fact that he'd already spoken directly to God a number of times before. If you like, he was one of the bully's mates saying "Chill dude, this kid's kinda cool", rather than one of the little kids coming over out of the blue and squeaking "stoppit". [Biased]

[ 02. June 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Custard
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# 5402

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I struggle to see how anyone on this thread except Shark and Lep could use the word "just" for God.

After all, if God is inifintely good, then rejecting him is an infinite crime.

Anyone else - what would God do to Hitler?

I suspect this is heading, as Lep so wisely said, to the place the glue comes from.

Custard

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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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Custard
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# 5402

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For clarification, when I say "I struggle", I do mean that. Help me out here!

Custard

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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:


Leprechaun and Shark Shooter - I'm curious. You both broadly affirm the God of the OP? (please don't be offended if you don't, I am just trying to suss out people's positions here.).

Broadly. I'm not so sure about Adam and Eve. But broadly.
quote:

Do you understand why some of us find such a God unattractive?

Yes. But I think there are other routes out apart from saying that this God doesn't exist.
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
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I'm coming in a little late, so I'll try to strictly address the OP:
quote:
Have you seriously considered it? What would you do/change if you were suddenly, somehow, convinced of it? How would it affect you?
I consider it daily, and I continue to believe it and accept it as the Truth.

I hope I would change nothing about myself nor my life, even if I suddenly decided to reject my beliefs.

I don't fear hell now, so why would my actions be affected by disbelief? I live as I live.

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Lep - I'm sorry you don't like it, but from my viewpoint that's what I would have to become. Somehow, I'd have to twist myself round the idea that God is going to torment my parents, my sister and my grandparents for eternity in Hell. The problem is they simply don't deserve it. I had to reject that view of God because, as I said, I can do nothing but resent such a God.

Custard - the problem with your post is twofold:

1) I don't know anyone who rejects God. Many people don't believe in Him, but you can't reject someone you don't believe in.

2) It's not what God would do to Hitler that's the problem; it's what God'd do to Ghandi for example.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
I suspect this is heading, as Lep so wisely said, to the place the glue comes from.

I hope not, because the nature of God is one of the (if not the) major things I struggle with regarding Christianity on a daily basis, and as I don't see a thread about it in the equine graveyard.

I seem to alternate between the hope that God is, as our more liberal brethren say, ultimately forgiving and willing to overlook my worst parts; and the fear that He is ultimately judgmental and thus I'd better keep my slate cleaner than clean if I don't want to burn.

Of course, I also worry about whether hope and fear are the right things to base my religion on, but at the moment I don't have a lot more to offer...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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I felt Sharkshooter’s OP was patronising and demeaning – I’ll respond in more detail in the Other Place. I still feel it was just a minor variation on ‘you liberals are all going to hell and you’d better wake up and realise it’, with the added insult to injury of questioning whether we had ever actually seriously thought through our position.

I felt, therefore, that I was merely paying back in kind. I regret if my response - which was directed exclusively at Sharkshooter and was not meant to be a personal attack on fundamentalists as a species - fell somewhat short of Purgatorial standards.

However, I do think that the belief in the literal truth of the creation story is something that requires one to leave one’s intellect at the door. That’s not the same thing as saying fundamentalists are stupid. Maybe we over-value intelligence in the modern world, maybe simple faith is better. Maybe. It’s a valid position, I suppose – I just don’t happen to agree with it. I think God gave us brains so we could use them and, as Adeodatus has said, a literal belief in the story also makes God a liar. But my original point was that one’s position on this is irrelevant to salvation, isn’t it? If not, please tell me where Jesus says you have to believe that the Bible is literally true.

Now Grits is my kind of fundamentalist – like her, I would change nothing, even if my beliefs altered

And, Sharkshooter, you didn’t deal with the point about people who have never heard of Jesus – you just asked us to avoid it.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
I still feel it was just a minor variation on ‘you liberals are all going to hell and you’d better wake up and realise it’,

It was not intended to be.
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
with the added insult to injury of questioning whether we had ever actually seriously thought through our position.

Some have - I know that. Perhaps some have not. A question is not an insult - at least in my circles.


quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
I felt, therefore, that I was merely paying back in kind. I regret if my response - which was directed exclusively at Sharkshooter and was not meant to be a personal attack on fundamentalists as a species - fell somewhat short of Purgatorial standards.

I expect your appology is acceptable to any who were offended - I am not one of those who was offended by your comments. However, if this is an appology, in any way, to me, it is certainly accepted in the spirit of honesty and community with which it was given.

quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
However, I do think that the belief in the literal truth of the creation story is something that requires one to leave one’s intellect at the door. That’s not the same thing as saying fundamentalists are stupid.

Interesting - that is the way I take it. However, I have been accused of it directly and indirectly enough times that it doesn't really bother me anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
Maybe we over-value intelligence in the modern world, maybe simple faith is better. Maybe. It’s a valid position, I suppose – I just don’t happen to agree with it.

That is scriptural. But if you want chapter and verse, you will have to ask for it because I don't think you really want it.
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
I think God gave us brains so we could use them and, as Adeodatus has said, a literal belief in the story also makes God a liar. But my original point was that one’s position on this is irrelevant to salvation, isn’t it? If not, please tell me where Jesus says you have to believe that the Bible is literally true.

I didn't ask you to believe it. I asked what would you do differently if you did believe it. A purely hypothetical question which you were unwilling or unable to answer. And that is OK.

quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
Now Grits is my kind of fundamentalist – like her, I would change nothing, even if my beliefs altered

That is what I was looking for. Would you like to expand on that to answer "Why not?"

If you don't want to, that is OK with me.
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
And, Sharkshooter, you didn’t deal with the point about people who have never heard of Jesus – you just asked us to avoid it.

Exactly. That is how I wanted it dealt with here.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Marvin the Martian:
quote:
I've just never seen what use rules are without punisment to back them up. Why obey them otherwise?
Eh...? Er - out of love for the will they express?
quote:
Abraham had two things I don't - a heck of a lot of guts, and the fact that he'd already spoken directly to God a number of times before. If you like, he was one of the bully's mates saying "Chill dude, this kid's kinda cool", rather than one of the little kids coming over out of the blue and squeaking "stoppit".
But don't you accept that bullying is always, under every conceivable circumstance, utterly morally wrong? And that being the bully's mate is merely being a party to the crime? I know you say that you're playing a sort of Devil's Advocate here, but wouldn't you agree that Your Work Here Is Done? You've basically produced - as a thought-experiment, I know - a version of Christianity with a bully-boy at the heart of it, and his corruption spread through the whole system. Surely we can all agree that - to put it mildly - it's a pretty horrible travesty of Biblical faith?

Custard 123
quote:
Anyone else - what would God do to Hitler?

I'm really struggling to differentiate morally between the God of the OP and Hitler.
He is absolutist, arbitrary, utterly unjust, coercive, intimidatory, bullying and morally corrupt. Everything boils down to power, and the willingness to deploy it in the service of the will. This isn't the God who in Jesus Christ lays down his power and accepts death, even death on a cross, as the price of his loving involvement with the world.

Leprechaun:
quote:
I think there are other routes out apart from saying that this God doesn't exist.
WHy would you want to take them? This isn't the God of Scripture. It's a God cobbled together out of an arbitrary selection of Scripture highlighted with an arbitrary set of emphases. It isn't remotely the God of Jesus Christ.

It's one thing to say that a creature sundering itself from the Creator, and His love which is the meaning of its existence, necessarily finds itself poised over the abyss - which is a terrifying prospect in itself.

But to say that God rigs the whole history of the universe as a game the rules of which he only discloses to a few people, then he corrupts those few into accepting that their salvation, achieved by their kow-towing to his bullying, is not only a good thing, but is made even better by the eternal sufferings of everyone else, even people they have loved, meted out to them in some cases just because they never knew, and in others because there was no way that they could come to a conventional faith, is surely a bit different.

Or am I missing something? [Killing me]

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Sorry - that was the wrong smiley at the end. Should have been [Ultra confused]

And for the record, I'm with Hatless. If the OP were true, I couldn't be a Christian. I'd have been betrayed by God, and betrwyed on the basis of what I thought was his self-revelation in Jesus Christ.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:


Or am I missing something?

Do you mean besides the purpose of the thread?

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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I wouldn’t change because…. A living relationship with God is what counts. I happen to think that our beliefs about God – the way we explain our experience of faith to ourselves and to others – are largely irrelevant. There is an ocean of light and love that flows over the ocean of darkness and despair. I’m sure you believe this too - but, as far as I’m concerned, if you’re right about the God who is control, then darkness and despair win. But I’ll stay on the side of light and love, thanks all the same.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Elizabeth Anne

Altar Girl
# 3555

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Resolved: the OP premise is true. My father is going to hell, as is his side of my family (all Parsee), about half of my closest friends, and...worst of all, my dear grandmother, may she rest in peace, is already there, all because she didn't subscribe to the right set of spiritual propositions. [Waterworks]

If all this were true, there is no way I could be a Christian. All the words of love and mercy would ring hollow.

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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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I'm not sure I could become convinced of the truth of every item in the OP and still believe myself sane. If the universe is not as it appears to be, then how could I function in it as an engineer?

(Further discussion can be found in Dead Horses under "Death of Darwinism".)

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Sharkshooter:
quote:
Do you mean besides the purpose of the thread?
Nope. Got that. Loud and clear.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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I still think the "fundamental" difference at the core of this argument is how one views God. I think there are those of us who are content to let God be God -- however He chooses to be. We must conquer our humanism, our rationale, our self-ness, all things that can separate us from a true spiritual understanding of the Alpha and the Omega. It's not that we do not question; it's that we do not require the answers to fit our preconceptions. I can honestly say I have never, ever equated hell with the premise of an unloving God. If it were an indiscriminate, unjust, unwarned against hell, that might be different. But it's not.

I believe one of the biggest mistakes people make in developing their faith is when they begin to humanize God in any way. Yes, it is very hard to let go of what we think, our reason, our concepts. This is the age of man. How can we be subject to eternal punishment? Who would dare do such a thing and have the audacity to call Himself a loving God?

As I've said before, His love is evident in the fact that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to salvation. His love is evident in the gift of His Son. God is God. We cannot expect to live for eternity with the creator of the universe if we have not been willing to uphold His teachings and trust in His grace and His power and His decisions for His creation, whether or not we like them or whether or not they make good sense to us or seem like the "right" thing to do.

Personally, I could care less whether or not hell is real. I don't have to. And that's what Sharkshooter wants to know from you.

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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I care if hell is real because there are people I care about who are not Christians. I care if you have to believe in the God of the OP in order to avoid hell and go to heaven (if these places exist) because I don't believe in the God of the OP.

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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That Grits, she done talk much gooder than I, eh?

Thanks, Grits.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I believe one of the biggest mistakes people make in developing their faith is when they begin to humanize God in any way.

And, yet....God humanized himself. I feel that I can attribute certain human characteristics to God because God has been human.

And since God has experienced love, pain, loss, hunger, thirst, etc.---physically experienced them---then I'm not sure it's out of line to attribute a human sense of justice and mercy to Him.

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Grits, I really don't think you're coming from the same place as the OP. You say:
quote:
I think there are those of us who are content to let God be God -- however He chooses to be.
I couldn't agree more. And then you say:
quote:
I believe one of the biggest mistakes people make in developing their faith is when they begin to humanize God in any way.
I think that's what the understanding of God in the OP is actually doing. It's presenting God as an arbitrary, angry, bullying man (sic!). The ease with which Marvin the Martian can develop his 'bully' analogy is, I tghink, the proof of that.

You say:
quote:
We cannot expect to live for eternity with the creator of the universe if we have not been willing to uphold His teachings and trust in His grace and His power and His decisions for His creation, whether or not we like them or whether or not they make good sense to us or seem like the "right" thing to do.

Here there is a difference between us, and it's on the understanding of what faith is. I don't see how faith can possibly be the accepting of propositions taught on authority. That's just 'belief-that'. Christian faith is trusting acceptance of the Christ the Church's preaching and teaching holds out to us. But there is also the Biblically-attested faith that is known only to God. There will indeed be surprises on the Day of Judgement.

That God sees our hearts, and judges accordingly, is also a Biblical insight. I can't begin to imagine what God would make of the heart of someone who went along with the Big Bully just because that's the sensible thing to do. But that's also a component of the OP. It defines saving faith very closely, and abolishes the mystery - and therefore the sovereignty - of God in His judgement.

One of the odd things that makes Scots law superior to English is that it's apparently possible to suffer a wrong under the latter for which there is no remdy in law. This is not possible in Scots law, because the Court of Session - and also the General Assembly as the supreme court of the Church - possesses something called the 'nobile officium' - the power to put right any situation that falls outside the scope of the law, but not of justice.

What the OP is saying is that God is justified in inventing an unjust law and applying it unjustly, simply because He is God. What I'm saying is that there is nothing that could induce me to believe that God is less just than the Court of Session.

You say:
quote:
I have never, ever equated hell with the premise of an unloving God. If it were an indiscriminate, unjust, unwarned against hell, that might be different. But it's not.
And to that extent I agree with you. But the OP clearly doesn't. There is no way you can square this:
quote:
Anyone who does not acknowledge that Jesus is Lord here on earth will endure eternity separated from God.

with that.

(That, of course, is why we're not supposed to discuss lost Amazonian tribes, etc.)

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Son of a Preacher Man
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quote:
Originally posted by paigeb:
And, yet....God humanized himself. I feel that I can attribute certain human characteristics to God because God has been human.

And since God has experienced love, pain, loss, hunger, thirst, etc.---physically experienced them---then I'm not sure it's out of line to attribute a human sense of justice and mercy to Him.

I agree with you, but it seems to me that there are a lot of different human senses of justice and mercy. Who's to say whose sense most closely approximates God's?

Although God has been human, and may understand the human senses of justice and mercy, God is also God and I don't think any of us should be too surprised if God turns out not to be exactly like our own pictures of Him.

So how far away from our own perceptions of God can God actually be before we stop believing?

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
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It seems to me to be a thoroughly conservative idea that our sense of justice is derivative of God's justice, implanted in us by him. His, of course, is more perfect, being free from the self-centeredness and other faults that go with being a fallen human. But to suggest that God might do something that outrages our sense of justice seems to me to completely abandon the idea that humans can know what justice is in any meaningful way at all.

The alternative view is that justice is a cultural construct and what we are outraged by is the different sense of justice exhibited by medievals, Romans, or ancient Israelites. In this case our sense of God's justice is merely a projection of our own--which amounts to the same thing as above, that justice is simply unknowable and unrecognizable to humans.

Timothy

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Paige
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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
It seems to me to be a thoroughly conservative idea that our sense of justice is derivative of God's justice, implanted in us by him. His, of course, is more perfect, being free from the self-centeredness and other faults that go with being a fallen human. But to suggest that God might do something that outrages our sense of justice seems to me to completely abandon the idea that humans can know what justice is in any meaningful way at all.

Precisely. I simply cannot conceive of a God who would be less merciful than a human being. Unless, as has been suggested, that God is a cosmic bully---and then I fall in line with the others who say such a God is not worthy of worship.

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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Son of a Preacher Man
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quote:
Originally posted by paigeb:
I simply cannot conceive of a God who would be less merciful than a human being. Unless, as has been suggested, that God is a cosmic bully---and then I fall in line with the others who say such a God is not worthy of worship.

There are human beings less merciful than the God of the OP. The God of the OP may be a cosmic bully, but at least that God will let you into Heaven if you follow the rules.

That may not be as merciful as you. But it's more mercy than a lot of people have shown through the years. So again, how much different (or worse, for lack of a better word) does God have to turn out to be from your current notion of God to no longer be worthy of worship?

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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
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quote:
Precisely. I simply cannot conceive of a God who would be less merciful than a human being.
Then maybe my question should be: What does He have to do to prove to you His mercy?

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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Elizabeth Anne

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
Precisely. I simply cannot conceive of a God who would be less merciful than a human being.
Then maybe my question should be: What does He have to do to prove to you His mercy?
How about not sending good people to everlasting torment on a technicality?

That would be a good start.

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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...

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Paige
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of a Preacher Man:
So again, how much different (or worse, for lack of a better word) does God have to turn out to be from your current notion of God to no longer be worthy of worship?

I guess that question doesn't mean much to me. I worship God because I believe Him to be a God of love and mercy---as evidenced in the person of Jesus Christ. The God who loved us so much that He was willing to live as a human---with all the pain, loss, and suffering that entailed. The God who was willing to die to show us how much He loved us.

If Jesus is God, as Christians believe, and God is a smiter, then He had his perfect opportunity as they nailed Him to the cross. But He didn't smite them. He said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

If Jesus could extend mercy and forgiveness under those circumstances---and if Jesus was God---then I'm not sure how I could come to any other conclusion about the nature of God. If Jesus was not God, then I'm probably in trouble with the Cosmic Bully upstairs.

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
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quote:
If Jesus could extend mercy and forgiveness under those circumstances---and if Jesus was God---then I'm not sure how I could come to any other conclusion about the nature of God. If Jesus was not God, then I'm probably in trouble with the Cosmic Bully upstairs.
[Overused] This is theology founded on revelation.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
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quote:
How about not sending good people to everlasting torment on a technicality?
Ah... now we get more down to it. What do you consider a technicality? What are your qualifications for determining a person's "goodness"?

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
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quote:
If Jesus could extend mercy and forgiveness under those circumstances---and if Jesus was God---then I'm not sure how I could come to any other conclusion about the nature of God.
Again: What does He have to do to prove His mercy?

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
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There will be a lot of good people in hell, and a lot of sinners in heaven.

Guess what? I don't even expect you to believe it. Facts are facts, regardless of belief. Either this statement is true or it is false. As are all the statements I made in the OP where I also did not ask you to believe any of them but to say what would do if you did believe them.

Unfortunately, this thread has drifted so far, I expect it will not return. Carry on.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
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Sharkshooter -
quote:
There will be a lot of good people in hell, and a lot of sinners in heaven.
Where does it say in the Bible that there will be good people in Hell?

--------------------
The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Justinian
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Interesting OP, Sharkshooter. My response is that I'd obey the Law given down by such a God out of fear of hell, although the only way I could love such a God would be via Stockholm Syndrome. Equally, should I even get a sliver of a chance of destroying (or even hurting) such a God and freeing the universe from such tyrany, it would be worth taking, whatever the consequences to me.

Such a God is deliberately deceptive (c.f. other evidence in the Universe), cruel and unjust (condemning people for not accepting Jesus...). Calling such a God either Love or Just will no more make it so than calling me a tomato will make me a tomato. (And as I remarked recently IRL, a "Heaven" of continuously glorifying God reminds me of the labours of Sysiphus).

quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
After all, if God is inifintely good, then rejecting him is an infinite crime.

And that's something else he isn't under the assumptions of the OP. Also it's only an infinite crime if man has infinite capacity to reject. Man does not have infinite capacity for anything.

quote:
quote:
Papio:
Do you understand why some of us find such a God unattractive?

Leprechaun:
Yes. But I think there are other routes out apart from saying that this God doesn't exist.

No, just that if he exists, he's a nasty bully. Fortunately I think that such a God is a serious misunderstanding (and I've met one Satanist who believes in the God of the OP and thinks that his only possible moral response is satanism).

quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
Maybe we over-value intelligence in the modern world, maybe simple faith is better. Maybe. It’s a valid position, I suppose – I just don’t happen to agree with it.

That is scriptural. But if you want chapter and verse, you will have to ask for it because I don't think you really want it.
Please. At least please give anything remotely as strong as the first half of the Golden Rule: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind"

This is not IMO conducive to a simple faith- a simple faith would be not using all my mind. (And given the weight placed on the Golden Rule by Jesus, I'm going to follow that part of his teachings).

(And if you are going to give anything about little children, I know as a child I always used to ask "why")

quote:
...psyduck...
But don't you accept that bullying is always, under every conceivable circumstance, utterly morally wrong?

No. Parents bully children to e.g. prevent them playing in the road.

quote:
...psyduck...
But to say that God rigs the whole history of the universe as a game the rules of which he only discloses to a few people, then he corrupts those few into accepting that their salvation, achieved by their kow-towing to his bullying, is not only a good thing, but is made even better by the eternal sufferings of everyone else, even people they have loved, meted out to them in some cases just because they never knew, and in others because there was no way that they could come to a conventional faith, is surely a bit different.

I couldn't put it better myself (so I won't bother).

quote:
qlib:
I wouldn’t change because…. A living relationship with God is what counts.

Even if God is evil? I don't follow the logic there.

quote:
Grits:
I still think the "fundamental" difference at the core of this argument is how one views God. I think there are those of us who are content to let God be God -- however He chooses to be. We must conquer our humanism, our rationale, our self-ness, all things that can separate us from a true spiritual understanding of the Alpha and the Omega. It's not that we do not question; it's that we do not require the answers to fit our preconceptions.

I think that's something we can all agree on. However what conclusions we then get to about God differ widely and I'd say that the God of the OP has large numbers of traits borrowed from humanity, and the darker side of humanity at that.

quote:
Grits:
As I've said before, His love is evident in the fact that He is not willing that any should perish,

So why does he not just permit it to happen, but even make others perish or burn?

quote:
Grits:
Personally, I could care less whether or not hell is real. I don't have to. And that's what Sharkshooter wants to know from you.

Whether hell is real, and the nature of hell gives a huge clue into the nature of God. If hell is real and God condemns people there for eternity, that says a lot I don't like about God.

Oh, and [Overused] Elizabeth Anne.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Boopy
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If the position outlined in the OP were to be true, then I'd have to join the others on this thread who have already opted for Hell, and for the same reasons. No question.
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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
Sharkshooter -
quote:
There will be a lot of good people in hell, and a lot of sinners in heaven.
Where does it say in the Bible that there will be good people in Hell?
Did I say it was in the Bible? Does it have to be in the Bible to be true? You sola scriptura guy, you.

Start a new thread if you like.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
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This one's fine, actually.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
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OK, where does it say anywhere that there will be good people in Hell? (Actually, I'm sure someone will have said it somewhere. Bring 'em on!) Augustine, whatever else he said, always insisted that God, however inscrutable his ways, was always just, or he wouldn't be God. If there's anyone in Hell, I'm quite sure they are sinners.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
If there's anyone in Hell, I'm quite sure they are sinners.

So are the people in heaven.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
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Sorry to quadruple-post! [Big Grin]

Sharkshooter:
quote:
Unfortunately, this thread has drifted so far, I expect it will not return. Carry on.
I honestly don't think that the thread has drifted. I think that the OP spawned two responses:

a) If this is what God is like, and He's the only God on offer, we'd better fall in with him and keep on his good side, and

b) If this is what God turns out to be, then I want no part of him, and will be privileged to burn in hell for defying him.

There is a subset of a) which consists of varying degrees of Well-God-is-a-bit-like-that-but-it's-OK-we-can-justify-him (even when the justification turns out to be God is God and he doesn't need to justify himself.)

I think the rest of the thread is a slugging-it-out between these basic positions, and entirely justified in the light of the OP.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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quote:
So are the people in heaven.

Well yes, but I left that part out because I didn't want to get into the whole [Biased] everyone but God and Jesus, everyone but God, Jesus and the BVM, everyone but God, Jesus, the BVM and all the saints, nobody because everyone who gets there gets there through purgatory thing...

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Paige
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# 2261

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Again: What does He have to do to prove His mercy?

But I thought I answered that. If God, in the person of Jesus Christ, could endure something most of us would consider a supreme injustice (i.e., the torture and murder of a complete innocent) and not only refrain from punishing the perpetrators, but actively forgive them----I would say that was both a proof of God's mercy and a proof of God's nature.


Psyduck---thank you for that. I believe it WAS a revelation. In thinking through the implications of Sharkshooter's OP, I was struck with the notion that if God truly resembles the image that so many people have of Him (i.e., vengeful, willing to consign people to eternal torment, etc.), then Jesus was not God, and I am wasting my time in trying to be a Christian.

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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Elizabeth Anne

Altar Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
OK, where does it say anywhere that there will be good people in Hell?

I don't know, but Jesus did say that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven (the chapter and verse escapes me) which is a point against the all-you-have-to-do-to-go-to-heaven-is-believe-the-right-things theory.

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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by paigeb:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Again: What does He have to do to prove His mercy?

But I thought I answered that. If God, in the person of Jesus Christ, could endure something most of us would consider a supreme injustice (i.e., the torture and murder of a complete innocent) and not only refrain from punishing the perpetrators, but actively forgive them----I would say that was both a proof of God's mercy and a proof of God's nature.
1: It's not proof of his mercy, it's proof of his resilience
2: Who said he didn't punish them? Do you think Caiaphas went to heaven or hell? An eternal being can afford to wait for its revenge. (Yes, I know that there's "Father forgive them...", but whether forgiven for that act or not, under the terms of the OP, Caiaphas and Pilate are still going to hell.)
3: What is Death to God?

Essentially, my objection is that it is only one piece of evidence and if you accept the OP, the rest of the evidence goes in the other direction.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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[Written right after Josephine's post]

Exactly . Learning the right handshake.

I believe:

1. Salvation is, was, and always will be much more about what God is doing with us than whatever tiny human actions, decisions, or even beliefs we can come up with about Him.

2. As far as I can tell from the evidence of people who were not religious and came to faith, God is pretty much a celestial stalker who does not stop pursuing people.

3.I trust the work God is doing in people rather than my ability to understand it.

[ 02. June 2004, 20:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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phoenix_811
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
What if ...

Adam and Eve were real live created (sans bely button) people who sinned and caused humanity to need salvation. Old Testament people were saved by following the guidelines set out in scripture, specifically regular sacrifices for their sins. Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, died to pay the price for sin and is the only way into Heaven. Heaven is where we praise God for eternity. There is a real Hell. Satan lives there - it is not a nice place. Anyone who does not acknowledge that Jesus is Lord here on earth will endure eternity separated from God.

Have you seriously considered it? What would you do/change if you were suddenly, somehow, convinced of it? How would it affect you?

I've been reading along with the thread (even posted once or twice) but in reviewing the OP I have discovered something I hadn't noticed before. The OP says that "Old Testament people were saved." It also says that "Jesus ... is the only way into heaven." This leaves me with three ideas. First, if this is what was really meant, then getting into heaven and salvation are not necessarily the same thing. While this is logically possible, it doesn't seem particularly likely that this is what is meant given what I know about what the people holding this view believe. Second, given my understanding of those views, it could be that sharkshooter didn't mean that Old Testament people were saved. I can't make a judgment on that, I will leave it to sharkshooter to respond. Third, the idea of Old Testament people being saved is inconsistent with the last sentence of the statement. It would be helpful if some or all of the people who have said they believe the statement could clarify.

Given all of the internal inconsistencies, I would have to say that if I believed this statement I would have to consider the god I believed in inconsistent. Since inconsistency in God does not fit the paradigm of orthodox Christian faith, I would no longer be able to consider myself orthodox Christian. You should know that I, like others who have posted on this thread, believed something very close to this in the past. I no longer can.

Faith is simple, love is complex. I have faith that God is love. Working out what that means and what I should do about it is anything but simple.

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"Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi

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Elizabeth Anne

Altar Girl
# 3555

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
How about not sending good people to everlasting torment on a technicality?
Ah... now we get more down to it. What do you consider a technicality? What are your qualifications for determining a person's "goodness"?
Two very good questions which I wish I had an answer to. I don't, and I won't pretend that I do.

All I know is that I cannot believe that God is some great big traffic court judge in the sky, weighing up a soul's offenses before deciding to revoke the driver's licence. "Well, this person clearly loved her neighbor as herself...but she didn't believe in the Incarnation, the Resurrection, or accept Jesus as her savior! That's three strikes. Sorry kid. [Bangs Holy Gavel] Bring in the next sinner!"

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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Justinian:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by paigeb:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Grits:
Again: What does He have to do to prove His mercy?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But I thought I answered that. If God, in the person of Jesus Christ, could endure something most of us would consider a supreme injustice (i.e., the torture and murder of a complete innocent) and not only refrain from punishing the perpetrators, but actively forgive them----I would say that was both a proof of God's mercy and a proof of God's nature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1: It's not proof of his mercy, it's proof of his resilience

"enduring... something most of us would consider a supreme injustice..." is parhaps proof only of resilience - though I think that you have to ask about motivation, and the standard Christian answers are love and grace. But "not only refrain[ing] from punishing the perpetrators, but actively forgiv[ing] them----I would say that was both a proof of God's mercy" well, me too.

quote:
2: Who said he didn't punish them? Do you think Caiaphas went to heaven or hell?
It's at least plausible that the Word from the Cross was directed as much to him as to any of the others who were involved in the execution. In fact, if he is to be placed there, at the foot of the cross, it's kinda' inescapable. So I wouldn't be surprised if Caiaphas were not in hell...

quote:
An eternal being can afford to wait for its revenge. (Yes, I know that there's "Father forgive them...", but whether forgiven for that act or not, under the terms of the OP, Caiaphas and Pilate are still going to hell.)
"Sure I forgive you! Now throw the book at'im, Dad!" I don't really think so...

quote:
3: What is Death to God?
"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" As Karl Barth says, Godforsaken God - God at the furthest point of remove from God.

quote:
Essentially, my objection is that it is only one piece of evidence and if you accept the OP, the rest of the evidence goes in the other direction.
No, the OP is a reading -trajectory. It's a set of exrabiblicl preconceptions controlling the way the Biblical evidence is strung together.

Grits:
quote:
Ah... now we get more down to it. What do you consider a technicality? What are your qualifications for determining a person's "goodness"?
I think it's more helpful to ask about criteria than qualifications. Here's one.
quote:
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live." But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was; and when he saw him, he had compassion, and went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; then he set him on his own beast and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, `Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.' Which of these three, do you think, proved neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" He said, "The one who showed mercy on him." And Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

Emphasis mine. And Jesus' too, I think...

--------------------
The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged



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