|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Conservative Evangelical Anglican student church plant in Manchester
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
The plant
Comments anyone?
[ 08. January 2006, 21:58: Message edited by: Erin ]
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The plant
Comments anyone?
I've followed the link, and can't find where you get the assumption that they are Conservative, a opposed to Open or Charismatic Evangelicals.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Balaam*:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The plant
Comments anyone?
I've followed the link, and can't find where you get the assumption that they are Conservative, a opposed to Open or Charismatic Evangelicals.
Is not quote:
The Bible, as originally given, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible word of God. Christians must therefore, submit to its supreme authority and sufficiency, both individually and corporately, in every matter of belief and conduct.
a tad conservative?
--------------------
Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
I think there is something they have not noticed.
Odd that.
(Platt Chapel was Unitarian and was the venue for Manchester Photographic Society when I knew it, right opposite Luther King House )
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Balaam*:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The plant
Comments anyone?
I've followed the link, and can't find where you get the assumption that they are Conservative, a opposed to Open or Charismatic Evangelicals.
Ah - that takes local knowledge - St Mary's Cheadle is THE conservative Evangelical set up - and there are already more open evangelical Anglican churches locally.
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Is not quote:
The Bible, as originally given, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible word of God. Christians must therefore, submit to its supreme authority and sufficiency, both individually and corporately, in every matter of belief and conduct.
a tad conservative?
Definitely Evangelical, but Conservatism depends on the definition of 'as originally given'.
Thanks ES that about answers my question.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
|
Posted
*Tangent alert*
The sign "Heavy Plant Crossing" assumes new meaning when you know Welsh speakers.
In Welsh, "plant" are "children" (or just the one maybe!)
Can't imah=gine what it'd do to this thread! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
The use of the phrases "inspired, inerrant and infallible" and "supreme authority and sufficiency" to describe the Bible do suggest a significantly more conservative position than most evangelicals. The UCCF Doctrinal Basis, for example, omits "inerrant" and "sufficiency" in the equivalent clause. I certainly wouldn't be able to signify agreement to any doctrinal statement that describes the Bible in such terms.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
|
Posted
What an utterly loathsome group of exclusivists. I hope, but sadly do not expect, that the Bishop of Manchester will tell them to get stuffed. Just what we need; another group of conservative evangelicals with all the Anglican fibre of the Snake-Handling Churches of Alabama coming under the legal protection and public 'imprimatur' of the Church of England. And how much contact will they have with their fellow Anglican churches ie the ones from which they hope to poach the 'professionals, academics, families and others who live around the campus area'? I think we can guess the answer.
Yuk, yuk, yuk.
Cosmo
Posts: 2375 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Balaam*:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Is not quote:
The Bible, as originally given, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible word of God. Christians must therefore, submit to its supreme authority and sufficiency, both individually and corporately, in every matter of belief and conduct.
a tad conservative?
Definitely Evangelical, but Conservatism depends on the definition of 'as originally given'.
True, "as originally given" is dangerously liberal but "Christians must therefore, submit to its supreme authority and sufficiency, both individually and corporately, in every matter of belief and conduct" is hardly 'open', surely?
--------------------
Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The plant
Comments anyone?
Good luck to them, although I find the idea of a "student" Church a bit odd, surely most students prefer a family church where they feel cared for, or do they always like to stick together?
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
|
Posted
A lot of students seem to like big churches with lots of young people and a worship team playing choruses with plenty of drum and bass.
At least, there are 2 very successful student churches in Oxford like that, of the charismatic and the conservative evangelical varieties. Sadly, not a self proclaimedly open one.
Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Student 'new churches' - I've seen them come, I've seen them go. It'll attract a lot of young vulnerable people; bring blessings to some; completely screw up others; conservative evos will say it's the best thing since sliced Catholics; everybody else will think it's a bit embarrassing. In twenty years, it'll either be a comfy little cult or we'll have forgotten it ever existed.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Louise
Shipmate
# 30
|
Posted
Just had a wee look at the parent organisation of which it is an off-shoot.
Northwest Partnership News
'Contending for the Faith'
Some edited highlights
quote:
One of the key aspects of the North West Partnership, as expressed in our foundation document, is to encourage Bible believing Christians to contend for the faith within their denominations. This, though seemingly abrasive and negative, is none other than an outworking of authentic New Testament Christianity, a faith which is both rooted and expressed in love.
How can anyone object to anything however seemingly 'abrasive and negative' if it is done in Christian love!
quote:
It is about the faith once for all entrusted to the saints which was and is threatened by flouting the standards of sexual ethics to be in line with contemporary society. These concerns are remarkably relevant. Recent events in the dioceses of New Westminster, New Hampshire and Oxford,have brought into sharp focus the need to contend for the faith within our denomination. The world-wide Anglican communion has made it clear that "homosexual practise is incompatible with scripture." (Lambeth Resolution 1998). Any alternative position is to deny scripture and with it the expectation of obedience to the Lord Jesus the very outworking of the gospel itself
Contending for the gospel = opposing homosexual practice? Er... isn't there a little teensy weensy problem of emphasis here?
quote:
Local groups such as Diocesan Evangelical
Fellowships and Diocesan Reform groups have met
together to pray and have worked together to voice their concerns. Letters and signatures can go a long way to show the extent of the concern among church members... Expose Don’t be frightened to make a stand when you hear or see something that is not in accordance with the faith once for all entrusted to the saints. Let people know, lovingly and clearly... And then you will need to say something and do something when gospel-threatening error emerges. The experience of the Oxford Diocese shows that much can be done when Christians work together for the good of the gospel.
Er... right, the possibility of a celibate gay man as a bish is 'gospel-threatening error' and working together to drive the guy out of office is an example to us all of Christians working together for the good of the gospel.
Mmmmn. The Plant - don't think much of the garden centre which supplied it!
L.
PS. And this lot turn out to be at the other end of a cryptic link posted by ES? Fancy that!
--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
dorcas
Ship's florist
# 4775
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie:
I think there is something they have not noticed.
Odd that.
(Platt Chapel was Unitarian and was the venue for Manchester Photographic Society when I knew it, right opposite Luther King House )
Jengie
Well, quite!
Or, perhaps more worrying, they HAVE noticed that Platt Chapel is surrounded by Anglican churches which attract students, and that's why they chose that particular venue, because it's nearer to Owens Park (main student residential area, used as Athletes' Village in Commonwealth Games) than any other local church??
--------------------
"I love large women - they supply warmth in the winter and shade in the summer!" (With thanks to Gort!)
Posts: 387 | From: The Curry Mile, Manchester | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The plant
Comments anyone?
Jolly marvellous - I think we should wish them all every success. Up North could do with a bit more of a dose of the Reformation.
Remember, it's only about 75 days until St Thomas Cranmer.
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
|
Posted
Am I the only person who noticed on the "Leadership Team" page that they list the males first? And that all the blokes are ordained and none of the women are? Funny that...
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
|
Posted
Student congregations are a definitely not a good idea.
--------------------
“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
Am I the only person who noticed on the "Leadership Team" page that they list the males first? And that all the blokes are ordained and none of the women are? Funny that...
Hmm - not quite. They have two ordained men, the (male) church manager doesn't seem to be ordained. They also have four women (and only three men) on their "Leadership Team"!
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Jesse Telford:
Student congregations are a definitely not a good idea.
Ermmm - does this rather brave comment have any Biblical or sociological basis?
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
|
Posted
quote:
Hmm - not quite.
You're failing to see that it's a terrible conspiracy rascal. Give it another read.
[ 06. January 2004, 02:35: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Hmm - not quite.
You're failing to see that it's a terrible conspiracy rascal. Give it another read.
Ahhhh - got it now. Bottom of the page! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Typical freakin' evo anglo waspy fundy scum, eh?
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Jesse Telford:
Student congregations are a definitely not a good idea.
Ermmm - does this rather brave comment have any Biblical or sociological basis?
Oh yeah I forgot about that. Well, I don't think there's biblical basis, but the sociological basis is that if there are only students in a church, there is no one who has been in the faith for more than 10 years.
Thus, it might (not saying it would) become a very insular, and not growth-inducing organisation.
--------------------
“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
|
Posted
I have read that one of the problems with many evangelical groups (not all, I am sure) is that the emphasis is on coming to Christ in the first place, and not necessarily growing in one's faith. My sister shared with me that problem in her church. There was very little effort given to study and spiritual growth for people who had been Christians for some time, and they lost a lot of their new members after a while.
--------------------
No longer the Bishop of Durham
-----------
If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Jesse Telford:
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Jesse Telford:
Student congregations are a definitely not a good idea.
Ermmm - does this rather brave comment have any Biblical or sociological basis?
Oh yeah I forgot about that. Well, I don't think there's biblical basis, but the sociological basis is that if there are only students in a church, there is no one who has been in the faith for more than 10 years.
Thus, it might (not saying it would) become a very insular, and not growth-inducing organisation.
Ummm - couldn't there be people (if this is a university) who have been Christians all their lives ... i.e. 18 years or more?
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
Hmm - not quite. They have two ordained men, the (male) church manager doesn't seem to be ordained. They also have four women (and only three men) on their "Leadership Team"!
Spouses don't count, I'm afraid. I would be willing to bet that the wives are unpaid assistants.
Also, why do they look so damnably neat and clean? That alone would be enough to turn me off.
/tangent alert
I was in the local Christian Bookshop today and saw one of those "teen study bibles". Normally they are gaudily coloured, with phrases like "Jesus is way cool!" scattered through them, and advice on how to avoid giving your boyfriend a blowjob and so on. On the front of this one was a picture of a Calvin Klein-esque gentleman wearing a skimpy singlet and tight jeans, his sultry gaze making love to the camera. Clearly they are going for the closeted teen boy/horny teen girl market. Quite bizarre. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
/end tangent
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
magnum mysterium
Shipmate
# 3418
|
Posted
Are they being given alternative episcopal oversight from ++Pete, the boy wonder from down under?
Posts: 3095 | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Never Conforming
Aspiring to Something
# 4054
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Mmmmn. The Plant - don't think much of the garden centre which supplied it!
It's not related to Audrey 2 is it? Would explain a few things.
Looking at the profiles of the people running it briefly I noticed that they do seem to retiterate the fact that they are married. Is this just to confirm what kind of church it is?
I'm just glad that I won't have to deal with them. I've had enough fun with similar minded churches in the student area of Manchester.
Enough already.
Jo
--------------------
I used to poison Student Minds™ and am proud to have done so
Never Conforming in the Surreal World
Posts: 1419 | From: Oop Norf | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Never Conforming:
[Looking at the profiles of the people running it briefly I noticed that they do seem to retiterate the fact that they are married. Is this just to confirm what kind of church it is?
Jo
Or conversely to prove what kind of church it isn't. That is, a church that will welcome active input and contributions from Christians who are gay and lesbian.
--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Just had a wee look at the parent organisation of which it is an off-shoot.
Northwest Partnership News
'Contending for the Faith'
Some edited highlights
quote:
One of the key aspects of the North West Partnership, as expressed in our foundation document, is to encourage Bible believing Christians to contend for the faith within their denominations. This, though seemingly abrasive and negative, is none other than an outworking of authentic New Testament Christianity, a faith which is both rooted and expressed in love.
How can anyone object to anything however seemingly 'abrasive and negative' if it is done in Christian love!
quote:
It is about the faith once for all entrusted to the saints which was and is threatened by flouting the standards of sexual ethics to be in line with contemporary society. These concerns are remarkably relevant. Recent events in the dioceses of New Westminster, New Hampshire and Oxford,have brought into sharp focus the need to contend for the faith within our denomination. The world-wide Anglican communion has made it clear that "homosexual practise is incompatible with scripture." (Lambeth Resolution 1998). Any alternative position is to deny scripture and with it the expectation of obedience to the Lord Jesus the very outworking of the gospel itself
Contending for the gospel = opposing homosexual practice? Er... isn't there a little teensy weensy problem of emphasis here?
quote:
Local groups such as Diocesan Evangelical
Fellowships and Diocesan Reform groups have met
together to pray and have worked together to voice their concerns. Letters and signatures can go a long way to show the extent of the concern among church members... Expose Don’t be frightened to make a stand when you hear or see something that is not in accordance with the faith once for all entrusted to the saints. Let people know, lovingly and clearly... And then you will need to say something and do something when gospel-threatening error emerges. The experience of the Oxford Diocese shows that much can be done when Christians work together for the good of the gospel. (emphases on gospel mine)
Er... right, the possibility of a celibate gay man as a bish is 'gospel-threatening error' and working together to drive the guy out of office is an example to us all of Christians working together for the good of the gospel.
Mmmmn. The Plant - don't think much of the garden centre which supplied it!
L.
PS. And this lot turn out to be at the other end of a cryptic link posted by ES? Fancy that!
Out of all the stuff Jesus hammers in the Gospels, sexual behavior is way down on the list and certainly doesn't stand out as the kind thing that is likely to affect relationship with God the way issues of generosity or its lack, honesty or hypocrisy, pride or humbleness, service or fault-finding does.
Yeah, I'd say there is a bit of an emphasis problem here.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Jesse Telford:
Student congregations are a definitely not a good idea.
Ermmm - does this rather brave comment have any Biblical or sociological basis?
I would agree with Robert JT here, not aon a biblical basis but on a social basis. Congregations work best when there are more than one age group in them. This was kind of proved in the reality tv programmes done by BBC and ITV. BBC's stuck on a Hebredian Island (castaway?) seemed to work better as there were people from all age ranges there. Surivor in my mind didn't work as well as everyone was in their mid 20's.
It is one thing for churches to be actively encouraging students to attend. It is another when they call themselves Student churches and have not got any older and maybe wiser people helping out when needed. I think that churches need to be diverse in order for people to get the most from them.
Tom
--------------------
My allotment blog
Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
|
Posted
Where is this church going to get it's money from in the long run, I realise that it is funded at the moment by a "partnership", but for how long can they prop up what may get a large and expensive to run congragation?
Our Church (for instance) can support a fair number of students (they need feeding you know, skinny rake like things thay are ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) because it has a majority of working people who are happy to give into the Church - But a totally student church is not going to expect much money from students (and if they do they should be ashamed of themselves).
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
The discussion on the age / demographic of this church is interesting. They say they're in discussion with the Bishop of Manchester over their status - clearly wanting the 'validation' (God knows why) of having the approval of the CofE. (And by the way, if McCulloch says yes, I'll be first in line to deliver a verbal beating-up.) I'd say that their first requirement therefore, in the eyes of the CofE, is that they become like a parish church - open to all, believers and non-believers, orthodox and variously heterodox, dealing with a diverse population in a difficult area of the city. So what if, one Sunday, their (say) thirty or forty students found their congregation augmented by fifty or sixty local people of all kinds and ages? Would they say 'come in' or 'shove off'?
IMO, the difference between that 'come in' and 'shove off' is what makes the difference between a real Christlike church, and a narrow, opportunistic, dangerous cult-waiting-to-happen.
McCulloch beware!
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
So what if, one Sunday, their (say) thirty or forty students found their congregation augmented by fifty or sixty local people of all kinds and ages? Would they say 'come in' or 'shove off'?
The whole tone of your post seems to think that they will say "shove off".
Why?
It's a comforting stereotype to think that consevos will try to push out congegation members that they don't like ... but why do you think they would want to?
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
anglicanrascal - if they did want to be an open, inclusive church, why are they there at all? That's what all the other churches in that area of Manchester are (more or less). Why not save a lot of money by just putting up a sign saying 'Students - Go To Your Parish Church!'
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Calvin
Shipmate
# 271
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Jesse Telford:
Student congregations are a definitely not a good idea.
Ermmm - does this rather brave comment have any Biblical or sociological basis?
It is one thing for churches to be actively encouraging students to attend. It is another when they call themselves Student churches and have not got any older and maybe wiser people helping out when needed. I think that churches need to be diverse in order for people to get the most from them.
Tom
quote:
It is not our intention to create an exclusively student/new graduate congregation and it is our hope that we also attract other people too: professionals, academics, families and others from in and around the campus area. This mixed demographic will be essential to the healthy life of the new church.
Tom, I think they agree with you !!
--------------------
A crash reduces
Your expensive computer
To a simple stone.
Posts: 305 | From: Here and Now | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
anglicanrascal - if they did want to be an open, inclusive church, why are they there at all? That's what all the other churches in that area of Manchester are (more or less). Why not save a lot of money by just putting up a sign saying 'Students - Go To Your Parish Church!'
I imagine its because they don't think the gospel is being preached clearly and effectively enough to reach young people on the campuses of Manchester University. The idea would be for them to get people to attend, and I am sure they would welcome them warmly if they did. The iea that they would chase them off with hounds, pitchforks and blazing torches seems to be clearly opposite to what they are there for. Suggesting they don't want new people to attend their services seems foolish.
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
|
Posted
Oh Dear!
In August 2003 Jesmond Parish Church and St Helen's Bishopsgate funded and founded a Reform type church plant in Durham by taking over the congregation from the URC church in Claypath (whose minister - one of my colleagues - was leaving; the URC congregation was happy to be taken over, by the way). The minister at 'new' Claypath is Tony Jones, ex-curate of St Ebbe's and still describing himself as an Anglican minister (which he technically is, I suppose - but he has no licence from any bishop in the C of E!).
Claypath church building was in St Nick's parish - you know, where George C was and where Michael Wilcock was later. The URC won't sell 'Claypath 2' the building, so they meet in the mornings at Houghall College (just out of town) and in the evenings at the Three Tuns Hotel. Midweek meetings are in the Town Hall - right next to St Nick's.
The parallels with this Manchester scenario are amazing, n'est-ce pas? David Holloway justified the Claypath plant by saying tyhat there were no churches in Durham working with students!
I was a member of Holy Trinity Platt for some years - indeed I was a Reader there, and while it is more conservative than I ever was, it is not a Reform church. Much the same could be said about St Nick's Durham - open-ish evangelical, but pretty conservatively so.
Reform's tactic seems to be to target parishes which are towards their end of the scale, but not with them. What a surprise!
The deal is these plants want to take over the university CU. CU speakers stay over and preach at Claypath on Sunday - Manchester will be the same.
Which university city will be next? I predict Birmingham...
--------------------
"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
I should explain my previous post. This plant is next door (literally) to a thriving Anglican Congregation. That is though parkland seperates Platt Chapel from Holy Trinity, Platt, they are next door neighbours. Holy Trinitiy Platt is actually nearest buildings to Platt Chapel along Wilmslow Road.
Holy Trinity Platt is a big evangelical church. For those whose memories goes back to the 1960s or 1970s its the evangelical church in Manchester Cliff Richard attended.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
|
Posted
I followed a link to their doctrinal basis and got the following about their umbrella organisation:
quote:
The North West Partnership is a group of Bible-believing evangelicals in the North West of England. It began meeting after Peter Jensen's visits to the region in January 2003.
I would hope after the 9 O Clock Service the last thing a bishop would do would be to create an extra-parochial (non geographically based) C of E church unless it is set up with a C of E structure from the start with a PCC, church wardens and ministers trained and licensed by the C of E which would cut across their current structure somewhat.
Re students and 'proper churches' - my son went to college in London last term, he wanted to find what he termed a 'proper church' i.e. one with a range of ages/backgrounds which he could blend into rather than be labelled as a 'student'. He was asked by another student to an allegedly 'student friendly' church which turned out to be St Helen's which he knew nothing about but just didn't like as there was a lot of pressure to sign up to their beliefs and go on courses etc. He's still looking!
[I must check my spelling before I post. I must check my spelling before I post. ********* typos.]
[ 06. January 2004, 09:00: Message edited by: Arrietty ]
--------------------
i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Posted by anglicanrascal: quote:
I imagine its because they don't think the gospel is being preached clearly and effectively enough to reach young people on the campuses of Manchester University.
There are seven (?) members of their 'leadership team'. Each offers his/her services to one of the neighbouring parish churches as a Student Worker. Problem solved.
But I think you put your finger on what I suspect is the real problem - they don't think the Gospel is being preached. Unbelievable arrogance.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Posted by anglicanrascal: quote:
I imagine its because they don't think the gospel is being preached clearly and effectively enough to reach young people on the campuses of Manchester University.
There are seven (?) members of their 'leadership team'. Each offers his/her services to one of the neighbouring parish churches as a Student Worker. Problem solved.
Mmmmm - am sure that all the neighbouring churches would want a conservative evangelical youth worker who still believes all that sin and repentance and sexual morality claptrap ... NOT!
quote:
But I think you put your finger on what I suspect is the real problem - they don't think the Gospel is being preached. Unbelievable arrogance.
I said "preached clearly and effectively". Unbelievable arrogance that they would dare to judge the ministry of others? Just like we have all been doing on this thread? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
|
Posted
Despite every scrap of evidence to the contrary “Issue churches” keep springing up. It may thrive for a while, heresy can be SO appealing, but lacking any roots in the gospel or the Christian tradition it will wither and die. Taking with it the faith of many. It is a sign of insanity to keep doing the same thing and expecting differing results. Issue churches never thrive. Issue churches screw people up. Issue churches are ego trips for the obsessed.
As Karl said. Ack.
P
--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
It is a sign of insanity to keep doing the same thing and expecting differing results. Issue churches never thrive. Issue churches screw people up. Issue churches are ego trips for the obsessed.
Do you mean who you think I mean?
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
|
Posted
By the same token it is crazy to change a winning formula.
P
--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
anglicanrascal - if they did want to be an open, inclusive church, why are they there at all? That's what all the other churches in that area of Manchester are (more or less). Why not save a lot of money by just putting up a sign saying 'Students - Go To Your Parish Church!'
Probably because many 20-somethings don't usually go to church, certainly not to something that looks like their parents' church. If a church is started that does have some appeal it will often start pulling in other curious folks of other demographics who also might not go to places of worship that we might be more comfortable in. In my city, one of the biggest non-denoms started as a youth ministry. It kept a lot of its first congregants who are now in middle age, there are still lots of kids, and it has several thousand members.
Yes, it too is conservative for my taste. No, I'm not crazy about that. But if I don't like it that much, I could be thinking of ways that would
persuade young people that being love-God-love-neighbor-based, reflective and tolerant is more life-enhancing than having church elders interpret the Bible for us and tell us what version is inerrant truth. On the other hand, I also believe that being Great Commandment oriented, reflective and tolerant sometimes includes disagreeing with many conservative opinions, even getting pissed off at them when it appears they are hurting and excluding others, but it also includes appreciating that conservative Christians are like liberal Christians, in that they are seeking God and living their faith in many positive ways while at the same time dogged by human limitation.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
DP: Obviously there is a much more machivalian (sp?) thing going on here than my quaint American mind was grasping. Yuck!
Good luck. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
The deal is these plants want to take over the university CU. CU speakers stay over and preach at Claypath on Sunday - Manchester will be the same.
That is, in my mind, an important issue (not the only one). Universities already have student ministries - CUs and chaplaincies mainly, with SCMs sometimes. It is one thing for local churches to support these existing ministries quite another for churches to try to usurp those ministries (there will, however, always be a role for local churches to provide homes to students who don't feel comfortable in student groups). CU members should attend a range of local churches, and CU speakers and leaders should represent a broad range of evangelical belief. I remember the pain caused in our CU when a local church started a seperate student ministry, and I can see similar problems developing in Manchester CUs (in our case the difference between the CU and this church was over charismatic gifts, but I think the effect would be the same).
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
|
Posted
I noted from the doctrinal statement of the NorthWest Partnership, which they have adopted, that they believe the orthodox doctrine regarding predestination. Not much by itself, but certainly a step in the right direction.
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
