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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Conservative Evangelical Anglican student church plant in Manchester
Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Big Dan
quote:
Their first loyalty is to God, who, they believe, has entrusted them with this task. All other loyalties are secondary. (And that's how it shouldn't be, isn't it?)
That sounds as though they claim direct insight into the mind of God. Would that be their position? Since 'minister' seems to be a prominent word in their discourse, doesn't this rather suggest that they are denying the place of the Church in validating their call to this work, even though we're not talking about ordination here?

When you say that "All other loyalties are secondary", I find myself recalling that, as a Presbyterian, I vow to be "subject, in Christ" to the courts of my Church. Is it possible to be an Anglican, and simply disregard what is understood to constitute authority in the church?

Yes, in the end, all other loyalties are secondary, and that's absolutely the case when there's a conflict. But at what point do you say that there's a conflict between properly constituted authority in the Church and the will of God? And on what grounds? Isn't it an awfully big thing to say? And it seems to me, looking in from outside, that it's being said at a very early stage...

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Stoo

Mighty Pirate
# 254

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quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
I believe that Tony Porter is crying out for help: his church (Holy Trinity, Platt) is so full that they cannot accommodate many more -- hence the need for another church in the area

There are churches in Withington (walking distance from Platt) and several other Anglican churches in Fallowfield.

They may not all be evangelical, but they are there, and would be glad of the student influx.

If Anglicanism is secondary to Evangelicalism, then there are many other Evangelical churches in the area, to get to which, if my memory serves me correctly, students really don't mind travelling.

I honestly don't see a need for it. I'm sorry.

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This space left blank

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
you see when it boils down to it their first loyalty is to the North-west partnership not to Manchester diocese.

Their first loyalty is to God, who, they believe, has entrusted them with this task. All other loyalties are secondary. (And that's how it shouldn't be, isn't it?)

Big Dan

So are you saying that since they are primarily accountable to God, it doesn't matter who else they are accountable to or in which order?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by psyduck:
Big Dan
quote:
Their first loyalty is to God, who, they believe, has entrusted them with this task. All other loyalties are secondary. (And that's how it shouldn't be, isn't it?)
That sounds as though they claim direct insight into the mind of God. Would that be their position?

No, it wasn't meant to sound that way. Sorry if it did. I was just making the point that as Christians our ultimate authority is God not the C of E.

quote:


they are denying the place of the Church in validating their call to this work

No; that's partly why they are in such discussions, I'm sure. And many others have validated this `call' (Tony Porter, the North West Partnership, St Mary's, Cheadle).

quote:

Is it possible to be an Anglican, and simply disregard what is understood to constitute authority in the church?

I doubt it. So I don't think the Plant would breach church discipline. For example, if the Bishop says `No' they won't go ahead and set up as a rebel Anglican plant, I'm sure.

quote:

do you say that there's a conflict between properly constituted authority in the Church and the will of God? And on what grounds?

No, I don't say this. I don't think there's any conflict here. The issue is whether the Plant can be accommodated within the existing C of E structures. It's not a matter of the Plant's being opposed to the C of E or the diocese's being opposed to the Plant as such -- the question is: can this be fitted into the diocese's existing structures?

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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If they slip in under the net as Anglicans, never mind authority, are they going to pay quota?

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
So are you saying that since they are primarily accountable to God, it doesn't matter who else they are accountable to or in which order?

No, I'm saying merely that as Christians our primary authority and allegiance are God-wards, not the C of E or any other denomination.

The fact that the Plant is seeking C of E accountability shows that they take accountability seriously.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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quote:
I don't understand what you mean by `doctrinal hardness' -- the DB is simply a statement of what they believe. Nobody is saying that one has to sign the DB to worship with the Plant!
BD, apologies if I havent been clear in what I was saying. The point I was making was that there was a distance between the Theology which the leadership claim to espouse (as detailed in their DB) and their own personal practice of the faith. Now I happen to think that it is a good thing that their personal lives are animated by the love and compassion of Jesus. I'm just saying that it is in spite of, not because of their theology.

Part of that theology is the penal substitutionary atonement doctine, to which you allude
quote:
After all, he has lovingly suffered an infinite punishment for us and forgiven us an infinitely serious sin (rejection of him).

This has been covered at length on another thread, but suffice it to say that many Christians, even those of evangelical persuasion, feel that this doctrine is not particularly biblical, and is particularly difficult to reconcile with the character of the Father of the Lord Jesus, who is indeed infinately loving and forgiving.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Stoo:
I honestly don't see a need for it. I'm sorry.

If the revival that I hope we are all praying for breaks out tomorrow there won't be room for all the students. Indeed, as I've said, as it is there is scarcely room in church for all the students in Platt's parish that want to go there.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
The point I was making was that there was a distance between the Theology which the leadership claim to espouse (as detailed in their DB) and their own personal practice of the faith. Now I happen to think that it is a good thing that their personal lives are animated by the love and compassion of Jesus. I'm just saying that it is in spite of, not because of their theology.

I think their theology is also of the love and compassion of Jesus.

quote:

Part of that theology is the penal substitutionary atonement doctine, to which you allude
quote:
After all, he has lovingly suffered an infinite punishment for us and forgiven us an infinitely serious sin (rejection of him).

This has been covered at length on another thread, but suffice it to say that many Christians, even those of evangelical persuasion, feel that this doctrine is not particularly biblical, and is particularly difficult to reconcile with the character of the Father of the Lord Jesus, who is indeed infinately loving and forgiving.
Since it's on another thread I sha'n't say any more than this: all I was trying to say was that the cross demonstrates the infinite love and forgiveness of Jesus -- and I'm sure the Plant people believe this too. Indeed, I hope we can all agree on this.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Dan, I think you are doing a cracking job of standing up for a church that wont stand up for itself. You must weary soon, don’t worry if you can’t keep up the pace.

I think the Plant are reading this and I think they ought to make their position clear. I think they wont because to do so would show their true colours.

Thanks also to all who are taking part in this very interesting thread and not dog-piling on Dan. It must be difficult for him arguing an ecclesiology that he is not directly (though closely) linked to.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Dan, I think you are doing a cracking job of standing up for a church that wont stand up for itself. You must weary soon, don’t worry if you can’t keep up the pace.

I think the Plant are reading this and I think they ought to make their position clear. I think they wont because to do so would show their true colours.

Thanks also to all who are taking part in this very interesting thread and not dog-piling on Dan. It must be difficult for him arguing an ecclesiology that he is not directly (though closely) linked to.

P

Thanks very much for this, Pyx_e! I am indeed feeling the pace a bit!

Just to make my position clear: I am not part of the Plant and don't know any more than you really. (I've read the Web site and Phil Keymer's e-mail.) But I do go to Phil Keymer's current church (St Mary's, Cheadle) and know him quite well (though I haven't seen him for a couple of weeks now). I just think that someone ought to stand up for him and the Plant. Since I'm his friend and he's busy, I'll do it!

Cheers,

Big Dan

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Faithful Sheepdog
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# 2305

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Part of that theology is the penal substitutionary atonement doctine, to which you allude
quote:
After all, he has lovingly suffered an infinite punishment for us and forgiven us an infinitely serious sin (rejection of him).

This has been covered at length on another thread, but suffice it to say that many Christians, even those of evangelical persuasion, feel that this doctrine is not particularly biblical, and is particularly difficult to reconcile with the character of the Father of the Lord Jesus, who is indeed infinately loving and forgiving.
Jolly Jape, that is an unfair comment on this thread. There may well be serious questions raised by "The Plant", but it is unfair to lay the whole burden of evangelical theology at their feet as well. There is plenty of space elsewhere on the Ship if you wish to critique the penal substitutionary model of the atonement.

Neil

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"Random mutation/natural selection works great in folks’ imaginations, but it’s a bust in the real world." ~ Michael J. Behe

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
So are you saying that since they are primarily accountable to God, it doesn't matter who else they are accountable to or in which order?

No, I'm saying merely that as Christians our primary authority and allegiance are God-wards, not the C of E or any other denomination.

The fact that the Plant is seeking C of E accountability shows that they take accountability seriously.

Big Dan

Thank you for the clarification.

I am not an Anglican, but it would seem to me that, as Nightlamp pointed out in the post which to which you were responding, under God the primary accountability for this enterprise should rest with the diocese and not with the NWP.

If revival breaks out then it will be a case of more power to everybody's elbow (or, in more biblical terms, "they made signs to their companions to come and help them bring in the fish"). I think you will find that a lot of posters here are not having a knee-jerk "liberal" reaction to something that is too evangelical for their taste, but rather speaking from sad experience that initiatives like The Plant are perhaps not the best way to further revival.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Thank you for the clarification.

I am not an Anglican, but it would seem to me that, as Nightlamp pointed out in the post which to which you were responding, under God the primary accountability for this enterprise should rest with the diocese and not with the NWP.

I think that is the Plant's position: they want their first court of accountability under God to be the C of E. Everyone is just waiting to see whether the diocese will accept this request.

Thanks for getting me to clarify the position; I think I expressed it very badly.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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Faithful Sheepdog, I apologise if my coments were unfair, or if I seemed to be derailing the thread; that wasn't my intention. I certainly had no intention of laying "the whole burden of evangelical theology" at the Plant's feet.

As I seem to remember saying, I wish the Plant well. My primary concern in that particular post was to clarify my previous post, which may have been unclear, with a specific example. It wasn't intended to castigate the Plant for their beliefs, still less to unload on Big Dan for his stalwart and admirable defence of his friends. I hope, Big Dan, that you did not take it in that way, and if you did, I sincerely and unreservedly apologise.

Pax

Jeremy

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:

It wasn't intended to castigate the Plant for their beliefs, still less to unload on Big Dan for his stalwart and admirable defence of his friends. I hope, Big Dan, that you did not take it in that way, and if you did, I sincerely and unreservedly apologise.

No offence taken! I didn't put what I said very clearly, as I had no intention of getting into penal substitution! All I meant was that I was sure that the Plant's leaders would agree with me (and I hope everyone here) that the cross shows God's unsurpassable love and forgiveness. Further, I think the Plant is trying to show this in practice as well as in theology, though we all fail to do it perfectly . . . .

A suggestion: I still think we are all waiting for the Bishop's/diocese's answer, and I don't have much else to say. Perhaps we should put this thread on ice until the Bishop's decision is made known and we know what will happen next? Charles Read suggested that the decision will be made this week, so we sha'n't have long to wait.

I don't mind trying to defend my friends and the Plant against further criticisms but I should quite like to stop for lunch soon!

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Charles Read
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# 3963

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I am stopping for lunch and am going to Newcasrtle to buy the Church Times!!

However, I do think one of the Plant leaders could be bothered to join in this discussion themselves! What message is being sent out by not doing so?

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
However, I do think one of the Plant leaders could be bothered to join in this discussion themselves! What message is being sent out by not doing so?

I think the message is that they are very busy trying to set up a new church within the C of E framework!

But I'm also very busy, so that'll have to be it for now!

Enjoy your lunch and the _Church Times_!

Big Dan

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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I thought the minister was one of the leaders of the plant but I guess we will never know. I don't know if I ought to be proud of my newly found liberalism or not.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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I_am_not_Job
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# 3634

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Interestingly the diocese of Manchester has one of the highest church redundancy rates in the country.

However, since everyone keeps talking about 'will they won't they be licensed' and having to 'fit within the strucutres' I thought I'd clarify the legal (yes, legal, that's Cofe's advantage of being established [Biased] ) situation.

If a church is not going to be a parish church there are a few other options under current legislation (the Pastoral Measure '83). They can be an Extra Parochial Place (famous examples being Westminster Abbey and St Geore's Chapel Windsor) or a Conventional District. Both hold various rights and obligations but neither are ideal for this kind of structure, though similar 'network' type churches have used CDs in the past. The other option is that they are allowed to exist through the minister(s) being licensed by the bishop of the diocese and their activities continuing at his discretion . It would be normally expected that this would only happen for a couple of years and then they would take one of the EPP or CD route (or even become a parish or join a team ministry after pastoral reorganisation).

The big news on that front is that in February at General Synod a new system for churches like the Plant is going to be set before Synod to be debated (it is part of the ideas behind the new Pastoral Measure which had just been reviewed and after being passed at Synod - with whatever amendments they come up with - will be law probably by 2007). The finalised details aren't public yet (but it was in their consultation paper last year), so watch this space. Potentially the whole issue of Anglican ecclesiology might blow up and make the press. This is an issue facing the CofE all over the show and it's starting to think it can't ignore it.

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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As one of those directly involved with University Chaplaincy in the Diocese of Manchester, let me lob in my few penn'orth.

I am aware from our Chaplains' meetings of the intention of the two Anglican Clergy to found a campus ministry. They have been in discussion with the appropriate Diocesan Officers for a few months. Frankly I couldn't and don't see the point. There are evangelical churches (CofE and of other denominations) a-plenty in that part of the city. If I were Priest or Pastor of any one of them I'd feel royally insulted!

As I understand it, 'The Plant' will come into existence whether or not the Clergy are licensed.
The granting of a license will mean that they are able to say that they are 'functioning' as Anglican Clergy - a plus point for them, respectibility!

It will also put them under the Bishop's jurisdiction - a plus point for the Diocese (theoretically), discipline.

My reservations about what they propose are recent, i.e. having read their website, particularly their doctrinal basis. It's interesting to note that many of my evangelical shipmates share my concern.

I have got on well with the CU on my campus, but 'The Plant' appear to have a far more conservative basis, one with which I have little sympathy.

I haven't met the people concerned, but if this is what they believe, then I hope they don't propose to cross the Irwell!

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
Frankly I couldn't and don't see the point. There are evangelical churches (CofE and of other denominations) a-plenty in that part of the city. If I were Priest or Pastor of any one of them I'd feel royally insulted!

But apparently the priest or pastor of the local (parish) evangelical church -- Tony Porter of Holy Trinity, Platt -- doesn't feel `royally insulted'. Apparently he is delighted and 100% behind the Plant.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:

If a church is not going to be a parish church there are a few other options under current legislation (the Pastoral Measure '83). They can be an Extra Parochial Place (famous examples being Westminster Abbey and St Geore's Chapel Windsor) or a Conventional District.

another famous example is the 9 O'clock service.
It is possible for them to be fitted into the Church of England structure but the question is should they be?
The Church of England cannot going around accepting any plan that someone wants to do because it might be ill conceived.

[ 12. January 2004, 14:14: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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There's an article in the current Church News about EPPs and the like, including a 'Church of England based group and a charity as well' called 'Ignite' in Harrow. Revd Si Jones said that he was licensed (by the Bishop of Willesden) with the following words: 'I license you to be dangerous - and to make some mistakes, because not everything will work'. So although the CofE realise that some of the wilder innovations like 9OS maybe should have been kept a closer eye on, they are still open to blessing risky operations.

Unfortunately, this very informative article, which also covers 'Intermission' (an arts ministry) and the actors' church (St. Paul's Covent Garden) is not available online.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
They can be an Extra Parochial Place (famous examples being Westminster Abbey and St Geore's Chapel Windsor)

On reflection, I think that the respective Deans of Westminster and of Windsor (add the Dean of the Chapels Royal) would be a little miffed to see their cures relegated to Extra Parochial Places, when each is, in fact, a Royal Peculiar!

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Minister
Apprentice
# 5404

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I thought the minister was one of the leaders of the plant but I guess we will never know.

I'm not.

But I am still delighted that these ministers want to spread the gospel to a bunch of pagan students. There's lots of them to reach.

And I'm still delighted that the local church is fully supportive.

And I look forward to the day when the C of E structures can accommodate new initiatives (after all the medieval parish system is vertually dead because everyone travels accross borders - and so we shouldn't be trying to squash these new initiatives into old wineskins)

And I look forward to reading some appologies from those who have been cynical, rude and unloving in their comments and assumptions made about the Plant leadership team on this site.

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Minister:
And I look forward to reading some appologies from those who have been cynical, rude and unloving in their comments and assumptions made about the Plant leadership team on this site.

I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were you. If you've spent any time perusing this site, you'd know it isn't actually dedicated to blowing sweetness and light in the name of Christian Love. People here are free to call it like they see it, within the bounds of the SOF 10 Commandments, of course. Especially in Purgatory, our serious debate space. There are lots of bulletin boards out there for blowing sweetness and light. We're trying hard not to be one of them.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Minister:
And I look forward to reading some appologies from those who have been cynical, rude and unloving in their comments and assumptions made about the Plant leadership team on this site.

Where have people been rude and unloving? I'll accept that there has been a certain amount of cynicism, but then there are a number of questions that have not really been answered to the satisfaction of most people here.

For example, why plant another church rather than supporting existing churches? Holy Trinity Platt may be over stretched (yay! good to see a church growing that much), but why isn't the Plant team supporting other local churches to take some of the strain off Holy Trinity? Or, for that matter, why isn't Holy Trinity planting this new congregation to ease the strain they're experiencing? While questions are asked and not properly answered there is bound to be a bit of cynicism about motives, particularly given the knowledge many people have here of internal CofE politics and evangelical groups.

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Minister
Apprentice
# 5404

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Minister:
And I look forward to reading some appologies from those who have been cynical, rude and unloving in their comments and assumptions made about the Plant leadership team on this site.

I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were you. If you've spent any time perusing this site, you'd know it isn't actually dedicated to blowing sweetness and light in the name of Christian Love. People here are free to call it like they see it, within the bounds of the SOF 10 Commandments, of course. Especially in Purgatory, our serious debate space. There are lots of bulletin boards out there for blowing sweetness and light. We're trying hard not to be one of them.
Well if that's the state of play from everyone who frequents this site, I think I'd rather spend my time at The Plant!!! They have been so easily and cheaply rubbished, but they have rather sensibly kept their hands clean by not entering into this cynical debate! Good on em I say.

Goodbye!

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Where have people been rude and unloving? I'll accept that there has been a certain amount of cynicism, but then there are a number of questions that have not really been answered to the satisfaction of most people here.

Perhpas we could start with Cosmo's post (`an utterly loathsome group of exclusivists'). If people think that their questions have not been satisfactorily answered in my 34 posts on this subject that is no excuse for resorting to being rude and unloving.

quote:

For example, why plant another church rather than supporting existing churches? Holy Trinity Platt may be over stretched (yay! good to see a church growing that much), but why isn't the Plant team supporting other local churches to take some of the strain off Holy Trinity? Or, for that matter, why isn't Holy Trinity planting this new congregation to ease the strain they're experiencing?

Tony Porter at Holy Trinity is too busy to plant a new congregation and doesn't have a spare minister/pastor/cleric to send out.

Maybe other churches don't want the support, but if Tony Porter says he does then surely it's a good thing to answer a request for help from a Christian brother . . . ?

I cannot see why people should be cynical of other people's wanting to do evangelism. Maybe it's because we're feeling guilty about not doing enough evangelism ourselves?

Big Dan

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I_am_not_Job
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# 3634

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Yes, Chorister, good old Pete Broadbent is quite maverick in this area. He's frequently on the record as saying the Pastoral Measure isn't flexible enough and he'll probably say the new measure still isn't radical enough. However, a lot of other bishops think the other way and are particularly aware of evo congregations like this one trying to create unauthorised plants, so there's the usual checks and balances and consultation though it is likly to be more informal than other stuff.

Regarding the concerns over is it right for the C of E to allow these kind of things theologically the report has a 20+ page chapter on theology, a lot of it on 'what does it mean to be church'. The report will be available as of 20 Jan, check out the C of E website.

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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Minister - if everyone agreed about everything than the ship would be a very dull and monotonous affair. The fact that some people here disagree with you does not mean they are being unloving, bigoted or anything of the kind. It simply means they disagree with you.

Are you really going to leave the site because of that?

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In Theory

Ship's supernova simulator
# 2964

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I wonder how different this thread would have been if the OP-er had been someone else...

But come on - who wouldn't want to minister to students? They tend to be relatively bright, relatively keen to talk ideas and relatively middle class - so easy to convert and easy to fit into the existing church demographic! I'm sure the Plant will be very successful.

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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
evo congregations like this one trying to create unauthorised plants

I'm sure this was just a slip, but just to make clear: the Plant is trying to be an authorized plant not an unauthorized one! Everybody is waiting to see if the Bishop will give it the authority for which it has asked.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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Minister refers to:
quote:
a bunch of pagan students
Now, I'm sorry if this comes over as an example on on-board nastiness, but if that's the summation of the evangelical opinion of Manchester's student population, then the Plant deserves to fail, and I hope it does. Every one of those young people is the image of God; every one an icon of the creator of all that is; every one a uniquely priceless human being, brother or sister to us all; every one valued by Christ at the price of his own life. To sum them up as a bunch of pagans ... [Mad]
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Minister:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Minister:
And I look forward to reading some appologies from those who have been cynical, rude and unloving in their comments and assumptions made about the Plant leadership team on this site.

I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were you. If you've spent any time perusing this site, you'd know it isn't actually dedicated to blowing sweetness and light in the name of Christian Love. People here are free to call it like they see it, within the bounds of the SOF 10 Commandments, of course. Especially in Purgatory, our serious debate space. There are lots of bulletin boards out there for blowing sweetness and light. We're trying hard not to be one of them.
Well if that's the state of play from everyone who frequents this site, I think I'd rather spend my time at The Plant!!! They have been so easily and cheaply rubbished, but they have rather sensibly kept their hands clean by not entering into this cynical debate! Good on em I say.

Goodbye!

How rude.

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Narcissism.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Where have people been rude and unloving? I'll accept that there has been a certain amount of cynicism, but then there are a number of questions that have not really been answered to the satisfaction of most people here.

Perhpas we could start with Cosmo's post (`an utterly loathsome group of exclusivists').
OK, I've got to concede that Cosmo was somewhat "forthright" in expressing his opinion, it was a while back and I'd forgotten it. But, as Laura said it's not as though he (or anyone else) has really done any more than make their opinions very clear ... you've got to admit there's no doubting what he thinks.

quote:

Tony Porter at Holy Trinity is too busy to plant a new congregation and doesn't have a spare minister/pastor/cleric to send out.

Maybe other churches don't want the support, but if Tony Porter says he does then surely it's a good thing to answer a request for help from a Christian brother . . . ?

OK, though there's a big difference between an existing church asking for help in expanding their mission and another group coming in uninvited. The impression I'm getting, and please clear it up if I'm wrong, is that the Plant decided to start this initiative and almost by coincidence it helped out Tony Porter. If Tony Porter hadn't given his support would the Plant have continued any way? The impression I'm getting is that they probably will if the don't get support from the Diocese, so I guess they would have.

quote:
I cannot see why people should be cynical of other people's wanting to do evangelism. Maybe it's because we're feeling guilty about not doing enough evangelism ourselves?

I see no criticism on this thread of peoples desire for evangelism. What there has been is lots of questions about the appropriateness of the approach adopted by the Plant.

I'm not sure anyone has the right to judge the guilt or otherwise of other people, or whether or not they do sufficient "evangelism" (a term, I hasten to add, that is very difficult to define).

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Minister refers to:
quote:
a bunch of pagan students
Now, I'm sorry if this comes over as an example on on-board nastiness, but if that's the summation of the evangelical opinion of Manchester's student population, then the Plant deserves to fail, and I hope it does. Every one of those young people is the image of God; every one an icon of the creator of all that is; every one a uniquely priceless human being, brother or sister to us all; every one valued by Christ at the price of his own life. To sum them up as a bunch of pagans ... [Mad]
I think the minister just mean `non-Christian' by `pagan' (just as we talk of `pagan Greece and Rome'). I'm sure he'd agree with everything else you say about the young people.

Don't forget that the reason the Plant is going out to evangelize these students is out of love for them. If they didn't care about them they wouldn't bother resigning jobs, moving house, enduring abuse on this bulletin board, etc. all to give them the gospel.

Big Dan

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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634

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Actually, the royal peculiars, as far as I can remember, are technically EPPs under the Pastoral Measure and they are just a particular sub-group of them. It's to do with their relation to the parish in which they geographically sit and various other things like deanery representations, whether or not they have a PCC and stuff.

Big Dan, it wasn't really a slip. They have set up what they can and are hoping for Anglican affirmation but will carry on regardless if they don't get it. True, those other evo parishes are already C of E and then try to do stuff which they know the bishop is unliekly to allow, which is slightly different. But the attitude seems similar.

Personally good luck to them. I'm willing to bet half their congregation will be reading/needing 'the post-evangelical' within 2 years of attending. (not sure if that needs a [Biased] or a [Roll Eyes] ) Let's hope they do provide not just a breeding ground for young Christians at university but equip them for life afterwards and a realistic and loving approach to the rest of the Church.

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Minister
quote:
They have been so easily and cheaply rubbished, but they have rather sensibly kept their hands clean by not entering into this cynical debate! Good on em I say.

Was that really Minister's last word?
It certainly strikes me that by his going so far out on a limb for the Plant, Big Dan's posts have been a far more telling advocacy of it! And I'd have to say that it strikes me that if Minister's posts are representative of attitudes within the Plant, as he seems to suggest here, then they really don't deserve Big Dan!

Big Dan - respect!

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"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, I've got to concede that Cosmo was somewhat "forthright" in expressing his opinion, it was a while back and I'd forgotten it. But, as Laura said it's not as though he (or anyone else) has really done any more than make their opinions very clear ... you've got to admit there's no doubting what he thinks.

Yes, I think he should repent of what he thinks too.

quote:
OK, though there's a big difference between an existing church asking for help in expanding their mission and another group coming in uninvited. The impression I'm getting, and please clear it up if I'm wrong, is that the Plant decided to start this initiative and almost by coincidence it helped out Tony Porter. If Tony Porter hadn't given his support would the Plant have continued any way? The impression I'm getting is that they probably will if the don't get support from the Diocese, so I guess they would have.

OK; this is how I guess the conversation went:

Phil Keymer: Hi Tony.
Tony Porter: Hi Phil.
PK: I have had a great idea for evangelizing Manchester's students. Do you think it's from God? [summarizes The Plant]
TP: Wow! Great idea! Yeah; I think that may well be from God!
PK: Any idea of a good location for the Plant?
TP: I don't mind your coming into my parish if you'd like. I'd value some help with the crowds of students I have.

That's just a guess of how things went, but it represents the close co-operation that we know to have occurred between PK and TP.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

I see no criticism on this thread of peoples desire for evangelism. What there has been is lots of questions about the appropriateness of the approach adopted by the Plant.

I'm not sure anyone has the right to judge the guilt or otherwise of other people, or whether or not they do sufficient "evangelism" (a term, I hasten to add, that is very difficult to define).

I'm not judging. I merely wonder why people are so against this evangelistic initiative. I look at myself and I see that it makes me feel guilty about not doing enough evangelism and I wonder if just maybe others feel the same . . . .

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

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Shrug. Why doesn't the NWP (or whoever was going to fund the The Plant leadership); give the funds to Holy Trinity Platt and let the Rector there have The Plant people as his associates (in the Associate Priest sense) and assistant curates?

Then they can go on being quietly governed in the CoE and ministering to students without any fuss; while growing Holy Trinity and offering extra services to take the pressure off. He sounds supportive of them, everyone would be happy in this scenario.

I was under the impression that churches which could do so, employed their own associates without drawing from the central fund for stipends? (This came up in the past re: churches who withheld their quota and employed ministers of their own)

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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by psyduck:
Was that really Minister's last word?
It certainly strikes me that by his going so far out on a limb for the Plant, Big Dan's posts have been a far more telling advocacy of it! And I'd have to say that it strikes me that if Minister's posts are representative of attitudes within the Plant, as he seems to suggest here, then they really don't deserve Big Dan!

Big Dan - respect!

Thanks very much for the respect, psyduck! To be honest, however, I can understand the Minister's frustration, and am trying not to let it show through in my posts! Please accept my apologies (and tell me) if it does.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Big Dan
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# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Icarus Coot:
Shrug. Why doesn't the NWP (or whoever was going to fund the The Plant leadership); give the funds to Holy Trinity Platt and let the Rector there have The Plant people as his associates (in the Associate Priest sense) and assistant curates?

Then they can go on being quietly governed in the CoE and ministering to students without any fuss; while growing Holy Trinity and offering extra services to take the pressure off. He sounds supportive of them, everyone would be happy in this scenario.

I don't think NWP has any finances to dole out, but the answer to your main question is, I think, that Tony Porter at HTP is too busy to have the Plant under his overall authority at HTP. He would prefer it, I believe, to be independent.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Charles Read
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# 3963

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We do not have any solid evidence of just how the Plant approached Tony Porter, nor has Tony or anyone else from Platt said how they feel about it. Nor has the congregation at Platt been told AFAIK.

Platt Chapel - one proposed venue - may not be in Platt's parish - the boundaries are odd round there. Other venues are as yet unannounced - so parish boundary issues still remain.

If this seems like Anglican pickyness, then
a) the pasrochial system does need an overhaul, but
b) the polite convention is to negotiate direct with the minister of the parish concerned, and
c) there are several church plants into other parishes which have been set up after careful discussion with all concernd and sometimes by direct invitation of the receiving parish. HTB used to specialize in this!

I am not being rude to the Planb people here - just clarifying debate!

PS Nice lunch, but SPCK Newcastle out of Church Times. Had to buy second-hand books to console myself.

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"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
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# 4081

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I've only just found this thread and read it all. It has been very interesting and developed quickly, with interesting contributions from several people who have personal involvement in the area and situation, including two members who have joined for the express purpose of joining in the debate and standing up for their 'side' or friends.

If Big Dan or Minister had time to read more of the Ship boards I think they might get a better idea of how the place works and how generous spirited shipmates can be, in addition to being a place of informed and thorough debate encompassing a range of opinions. I'm not demanding that they spend this time as Big Dan already seems to be going to great lengths to cover every point on this thread.

More usually, purgatory threads are discussed in the 'hypothetical', with people talking about things from a greater distance and enjoying the different opinions and ideas, the extreme responses along with the temperate ones. I can well see how people involved in The Plant could take this thread very personally, but I don't think they necessarily need to do so. I think it could be an interesting read to them, but if someone posts something more controversial it could be taken too personally.

I'm trying to get my head round how the Ship would appear to someone who turns up because their dear project is being challenged - obviously the fact that a distant but worldwide forum can say anything about your motives, rights and responsibilities could be scary, or equally dismissable.

I guess I'm trying to reassure Big Dan and others that the Ship is a responsible place on the whole, and a very interesting one. I don't think Big Dan should feel pressure to stick around in case someone disses the Plant. It will happen, just as some local people will diss the Plant. Some will debate these issues from a personal bad experience with conservative evangelicals. Others will just see a fast moving debate and want a piece of it. People will not bite their tongues if they want to say something challenging or controversial. And other people will stand up for different opinions.

I'm rambling perhaps. But I wonder if this debate on the Ship could be seen by the organisers as an interesting, few holds barred range of opinions on a new project rather than a load of people jumping on a bandwagon to rubbish something. The Ship is full of individuals, just as the project is.

OOT

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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home.
Martyn Joseph

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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
We do not have any solid evidence of just how the Plant approached Tony Porter, nor has Tony or anyone else from Platt said how they feel about it.

The Plant's Web site says `We have also worked closely with Tony Porter, the Rector of Holy Trinity, throughout the planning for The Plant, and we are very grateful for his active support and encouragement.'

It seemes then that Tony Porter has said how he feels about it, but just not in public. He probably hasn't realized, I'm guessing, that his views are the object of such scrutiny at S o F!

quote:


If this seems like Anglican pickyness, then
a) the pasrochial system does need an overhaul, but
b) the polite convention is to negotiate direct with the minister of the parish concerned, and
c) there are several church plants into other parishes which have been set up after careful discussion with all concernd and sometimes by direct invitation of the receiving parish. HTB used to specialize in this!

My impression is that there has been direct negotiation with Tony Porter and that there has been careful discussion with all concerned. (But I cannot answer your question over in exactly which parish Platt Chapel falls -- I guess it's in HTP's parish given how keen the Plant is to point out on the Web site how supportive TP has been.)

Big Dan

P.S. Sorry to hear about the lack of _Church Times_, but glad to read that you got a good lunch and some books!

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399

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quote:
Originally posted by Ophelia's Opera Therapist:
including two members who have joined for the express purpose of joining in the debate and standing up for their 'side' or friends.
OOT

Thanks for this, OOT!

I must say that I had no idea when I joined S o F on Saturday night to try to support my friend Phil Keymer that I'd be making over 40 posts in 48 hours!

Thanks for the information about the Ship; I confess that I'd never seen any of the bulletin boards until Phil K. told me that he was very upset about how the Plant was being discussed! (I do say that my initial reaction based on this one thread is that discussion does get quite personal and heated quite quickly; I'm glad that other threads are a bit more gentle!)

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Custard
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# 5402

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As ArchVertebrate of Chinglebury-on-the-hill, I thought I should point out that all this hassle would be avoided if the following simple instructions were adhered to:

1) Churches should under no circumstances be named after vegetation. It is demeaning to the church of God (John 15:5) Instead, I recommend that 30% of all new churches be named after St Swithinbottom the semi-eunuch. A much neglected saint in my opinion.

2) It is obviously discriminatory to have two men described as ministers and for the church to think that homosexual practice is wrong for Christians merely because the Bible says so. After all ,who does God think he is telling us how we should live? I therefore suggest that either Phil or John undergo gender reassignment surgery. Since both are married, that will then
also solve the problem of sexual orientation within the leadership team.

3) In order to fairly reach the local population of that part of manchester, I suggest that a minimum of 40% of all church business, including staff meetings, be conducted in Arabic. And so that different religious groups do not feel left out, I further suggest that they invite a local Imman (preferably a lesbian one) onto the leadership team.

4) To further deal with the problem of ethnic homogeneity, I suggest that one of the leadership team undergo the reverse of whatever procedure Michael Jackson had. This should also provide an ideal candidate for Child
Protection Officer.

5) Poaching people from other churches is definitely bad. Frying them is better, but I'd have thought in this day and age that any problems could be solved with a simple arm-wrestling contest. In order to solve any such
problems in future, I suggest a new piece of legistlation forbidding people from changing which church they attend. That should counter their unfair and subversive tactics to draw people away from existing churches.

6) All these conservative evangelicals really get on my nerves. After all, all this insistence that the Bible is true and that we are guilty and need Jesus' death to take the punishment that we deserve just isn't what people
want to hear these days. That's what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4, and that's what I think churches should be all about - telling people what they want to hear. After all, I know that if I really deserved God's wrath, what I'd want people to tell me was that it wasn't really true and that they loved and accepted me for who I was rather than despite who I was. Much more comfortable. After all, as the Bible says, "Eat, drink and be merry."

All the best to those at the Plant!

--------------------
blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Had to buy second-hand books to console myself.

So an OK sort of day then?

When I have a bad day I have to buy new books to console myself.

Is this why I have a huge credit card bill?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged



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