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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Santa Claus: Should we lie to children?
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ThoughtCriminal
Shipmate
# 3030
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Posted
This Anglican vicar is in trouble for using factual science to disprove to kids the existence of Santa Claus... was it the right thing for him to do?
Is it "Christian" not only to lie to children, but to base the celebration of Jesus's Nativity around an originally Pagan, and now essentially consumerist, but by no stretch of the imagination Christian, figure? Or is the lie an acceptable, non-sinful one because it makes children happy and bolsters the innocent enjoyment of their childhood, a time of life which many adults (not myself) look back on as a time of joy they can never again in this life reach?
Does anyone think that the twisted concept of God held by many non-Christians, post-Christians and nominal Christians (anthropomorphic, male, bearded, rewarding some and punishing others, and essentially a wish-fulfilment fantasy rather than a reality) is influenced by no small degree by Santa Claus?
Or that, if children are told Santa Claus is real (and the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny...), and then find out, or are told by the same people who told them they were real, that they are not real, and the same people tell them about Jesus, that the logical conclusion for those disillusioned kids to make is that Jesus is a fairy tale just like Santa Claus?
Is telling our children about Santa a good or a bad thing? Discuss...
[ 10. March 2003, 00:33: Message edited by: Erin ]
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"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night within his temple; and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
17: For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Posts: 126 | From: Coventry | Registered: Jul 2002
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
I have only anecdotal data: Just before my wife and I were going to have children, we debated the whole S.Claus issue. As we both come from families where Santa is a very, very big deal, we didn't want to make some hollow symbolic gesture which would annoy our families and cause undue "differentness" in our children -- who were already likely to be pretty different.
In the space of two weeks, I read two people and heard two others say "I gave up believing in God about the same time I gave up believing in Santa," or "Our parents lied to us about Santa. Maybe they lied about God..."
That was convincing enough for the time, and since then I do hear the sentiment once in awhile. It is true that people saying these things are certainly trying to heap extra ridicule on the faith, and it is doubtful that they remember such things with any accuracy. Still. It gives one pause. The shrinking of the church in western society does parallel the rise of Santa, but so do many other things: telephones, book publishing, ethnic restaurants.
It should be an innocent little nothing, and we should always hesitate before making mountains out of molehills. But I think there is some less-than-innocent connection.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
I lied to my children about Father Christmas and about the tooth fairy and I told them that goblins live in holes in tree stumps and that the moon is made of cheese.
Fantasy is an important part of growing up (and also an important part of being grown up). Jokes and having people on, are part of an understanding of reality.
My children (11 and 13) know I'm serious about my faith, they know that it's not the same as Father Christmas. I suspect, looking back, they are glad they had parents that joined in the fun.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Was this Carol Service a service of Christian worship held in a church? If it was, why did the vicar feel any need to bring up the subject of Santa Claus at all? It was one of the few opportunities a lot of these kids would have had to hear about the connection between Jesus and Christmas. What was he doing wasting his time and theirs blathering on about reindeer, for Christ's sake?
I apologize for my irritation, but I was asked to sub last night for my boss at a civic Carol Service (for a medical charity) which turned out to involve 1)A reading of 'Twas the Night Before Christmas 2)A reading about the irritations of sending cards 3) An aspiring tenor singing 'Stars' from Les Miz 'because stars have to do with Christmas' 4)A reading about presents 5) A reading about how much Christmas makes us hate our families, 6) five well-known carols and 7) a blessing. Excuse me? Is this supposed to be post-modern, or was this group just to stingy to rent the Town Hall?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
The difficulty here is that even if you strongly feel yourself that it is wrong to lie to your children in this way, to tell them the truth about Santa when they are little will cause them (and their peers/ peers' parents etc) far more problems than it is worth! Its like a conspiracy - everyone participates and to not do so would seriously spoil things for others, which to me is not a very Christian attitude.
Having said that, when my own children were small, I tried not to make much of a big deal about Santa Claus, but tried more to stress the fact that it was all about Jesus birth. I felt they heard enough about Santa from friends/nursery/school etc, so it did not need to be reinforced heavily at home, although of course Santa brought them presents just like all the other kids.
Not sure that this approach worked brilliantly either though - they are now 11 and 13, well past the Santa Claus stage of course, but still far more interested in presents than in celebrating the birth of Christ. I fear I will have a fight on my hands this year if/when I try to get them to come to church on Christmas morning.
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Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Enosh
Shipmate
# 2779
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Posted
My wife and I decided to always tell the truth to our children (as far they were able to understand it). This means taking the time and effort to provide truthful explanations that a 4 year old can understand to questions like "why does the light come on when you press the switch?".
This then raises a dilema when it comes to Santa Clause. The initial reaction was that it's a harmless bit of fun in which everyone participates and to not join in would deprive our children of some of the 'magic' of childhood. However, we resolved to stick to our priciples and tell the truth as far as we knew it - Father Christmas was a kind man who lived a long time ago and who gave presents to children at Christmas time. Today we pretend that Father Christmas is still here and that he gives presents to people so that they can celebrate (the baby) Jesus being born.
To our surprise (though I guess it shouldn't have come as a surprise) the children were able to easily accept this fact, but we were still able to join in the fun of talking about Father Christmas as though he were real. The children had been included in the conspiracy!
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Victory over self comes as we learn to love people and use things instead of using people and loving things.
Posts: 123 | From: London | Registered: May 2002
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Second Mouse
Citizen of Grand Fenwick
# 2793
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Posted
I agree largely with what Enosh has just said.
I was led to believe that Father Christmas was real, as a kid, and looking back, it was a special part of Christmas, and I can't see that it has done my faith in God, or my trust in my parents any harm. But, all the same, it just makes me feel far too uncomfortable to make my children believe that this is true, when it isn't. I just can't do it.
Relating to what the vicar actually told the kids, when I was fairly young, it did occur to me that Santa wouldn't be able to deliver all those presents in so short a time, and that did worry me a bit. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
However it then occurred to me that obviously it was night time in different parts of the world at different times, so, for example, he could be delivering presents in Australia, while it was still daytime in the Uk. Working out that Santa had 24 hours rather than 12 available to do all that work made it all seem believable again. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
SM
Posts: 1254 | From: West Yorkshire | Registered: May 2002
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
I too would distinguish between lies and fantasy. Kids don't stop believing in God because they think "My parents lied about Santa, perhaps they lied about Jesus", they stop because their parents are not living the faith they profess. If you live as if God was unreal, like Santa, that's what your children will believe, regardless of what you actually believe.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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starrina
The rose warrior
# 3549
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Posted
I remember my primary school teacher telling me that of course Santa was real, when I was trying to convince my friend that he wasn;t. I pointed out taht I was so excited that I couldn't sleep, so I was wide awake when my mother came into my room and put the pillow case with my presents in at theh bottom of my bed.
She couldn't say a lot to that.
Its true that the way we celebrate Christmas is a lot to do with inherited traditions from pagan times but as has already been pointed out Santa is really a St. and I do believe that it is the intention behind the action that creates its meaning-e.g just because Christmas falls close to Yule doesn't mean its a pagan festival redressed.
Bearing that in mind the news last night reported that Britain is in a record amount of consumer debt this Christmas, as most people are putting their presents on plastic. Some ahve even re-mortgaged their homes-but this is due to property value going up and the timing happens to be convenient.
I am also sure far more children associate Christmas with Santa than Christ
If the Christmas message is truly lost in the spiral of consumerism maybe we need to shift the emphasis from contemporary pagan icons to God???
Maybe we shouldn;t be talking about Santa at all?
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"what have you been doing while Bells has been maturing?"
"Drinking better whiskey."
Posts: 275 | From: the kwoon | Registered: Nov 2002
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
I don't actually remember whether I thought he was real or not!
All I know is, one Christmas (my sister was probably in her teens by then) all three of us kids got a keyboard from "Santa" (yes, that's right, inverted commas).
This is how I intend to do it with my kids - shock tactics if they haven't been clever enough to figure it out, but obviously they will have done because they'll be MY kids! hehe ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
P.S. There's nothing we can do about Santa except make sure nativity plays counter him. Secular culture needs a figure too (not that they should be allowed one, but it's too late now...)
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
I think that santa is fine, it is a bit of magic in a season that is about amazing, and different things happening.
From a personal point of view, long after i knew Santa wasnt real, i still didnt look when my parents came in with my stocking, just in case!
It adds a bit of mystery to children who might not be able to understand the whole meaning of christmas until they are 5-6 ish. And like Lurker said, your kids should be able to tell if God is real by what you do every day, not just at christmas.
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Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Thank you, Amos - and I could not agree more!
Incidentally, aren't parents getting a bit too earnest (to say the least!) today? Perhaps, not being a parent (but having had a share of exposure to children), I can be more objective. I personally think that children are far more intelligent, and bigger realists, than we know. Except for the very little ones, I think kids are often (knowingly) just having some fun pretending with Santa - if anything, some equally pretend to believe well after they actually do in order not to disappoint parents.
Equally, I think imagination is quite a good trait to cultivate. (I myself, to this day, take joy in folk tales, mythology and the like.) In all honesty, did anyone feel crushed that "my parents lied to me" when myth was seen for what it was?
However, here is a tactic not to try - and this really happened. My cousin's son, Mark, was about 3 when this dialogue with me took place:
Mark: Does everybody have to die? (This very matter of fact.)
Me: Yes.
Mark: But God never dies, does he?
Me: No, God never dies.
Mark: But what about Santa Claus?
Me: Well, Mark, Santa Claus is Saint Nicholas - he's in heaven.
Mark (who had no use for that): Not that Santa Claus - the one with the gifts.
Me (getting dumber each moment): Mark, Santa Claus, in that sense, is a personification of a spirit of giving... (etc.)
Mark: Is Santa Claus God's brother?
My sister, very knowledgeable in the ways of children, fortunately cut off my lecture. "Mark, when this Santa Claus dies, somebody else becomes Santa Claus."
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
Christmas just wouldn't be Christmas without some Vicar deciding to upset a school by telling the assembly that Santa doesn't exist.
Christmas just wouldn't be Christmas without some 'shocked' parent phoning up the National Press with the story.
And Christmas just wouldn't be Christmas without the National Press publishing the story to show how out of touch Vicars are.
What about the nativity story anyway?
Wisemen attending the 'baby' when most scholars put Jesus at 2-3 years old.
Three wisemen when the Bible doesn't give a figure, - there could have been 100.
And all the wisemen with made up names.
Its not lying anyway, - its being economical with the truth which is subtley different.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonzo:
Fantasy is an important part of growing up (and also an important part of being grown up). Jokes and having people on, are part of an understanding of reality.
[QB]
quote:
Originally posted by Lurker:
[QB]I too would distinguish between lies and fantasy. Kids don't stop believing in God because they think "My parents lied about Santa, perhaps they lied about Jesus", they stop because their parents are not living the faith they profess. If you live as if God was unreal, like Santa, that's what your children will believe, regardless of what you actually believe.
I agree with these statements and much of what many other people have written on this thread. I speak as someone who has been reprimanded by a close friend for "lying" to her children by playing a verbal "let's pretend" game with them, something I do with mine all the time. She believes in never saying anything to children that isn't true. The difference between her children (whom I adore) and mine is that hers are incredibly gullible, whereas mine - even the five year old - test out things that they are told against their own knowledge and experience.
To be honest, I don't want my children to believe in God just because I tell them it's true. God has no grandchildren, and if it is my word that they are taking for it, then I would rather tell them nothing. I want them to grow into a relationship with Him by balancing what I tell them against their own knowledge and experience, and into that comes my own witness to them through the way I behave. When I lose my temper unreasonably with them; when I teach that God is love and yet say something unkind about someone or deliberately say or do something hurtful; when I say that God is forgiving, and yet am unwilling to forgive their wrongs or the wrongs of others, or to apologise when I know I am in the wrong - these are putting their faith in God more at risk than playing the "Father Christmas" game.
Indeed.. my twinge of guilt came when I ate the cake they'd put out on a tray for him... just in case he did actually come and found I'd beaten him to it!
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
My first wife and I did the "we refuse to lie about Santa" thing with our daughter and it paid off handsomely (in her trust in our truthfulness).
I object to saying that kids fall away from the faith because their parents don't live it. Any church has any number of families which disprove such a thesis. It's just more Freudian blame-the-parents-ism which refuses to acknowledge that kids make choices and aren't merely passive victims of everything that happens around them.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
quote:
I object to saying that kids fall away from the faith because their parents don't live it. Any church has any number of families which disprove such a thesis
But surely it helps if the main christian influences on your life act like christians. Brennan Manning said
quote:
The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable
From a personal point of view my faith suffered when my parents (esp my dad who was a vicar) said one thing in church on sunday, then did another during the week. There are always going to be exceptions, but if your main christian influences act as though God isnt true, than you will start to believe that.
tom
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Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
This is sort of off-topic, but . . .
My guess is that when the vicar was telling children that Santa Claus was scientifically impossible, he was trying to be funny and it backfired. There was a tongue-in-cheek article a while back called The Physics of Santa Claus. I remember it being read to me back in high-school. (I think I heard in physics class, even, but I'm not sure.)
Anyway, I doubt the vicar was trying to mess up any kids' Christmas fantasies. He just probably thought his audience was older.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
In front of all my nephews and niece, I talked to their mom about where Santa Claus came from...conjured up by the Coca Cola Company™ ...my brother and his wife didn't seem upset but I instantly had GUILT. My sister in law though gave me the book Auntie Claus to read to the kids...and they all were enraptured by it, even the 11 year old had trouble doing his homework...he wanted to listen to me read. The other 3 were all over me, intent on hearing every word. I felt so guilty since it became obvious to me that they LOVE this type of stuff [magical Xmas].
I also made sure I read the Nutcracker story with the Rat King...plus my favorite story I bought them all The Nightmare before Christmas (stuck up of me since I was born on Halloween).
I know I hate Santa Claus in theology (rather children look to Jesus on Christmas) but I love seeing their faces light up...I keep reading these fantasy stories since they never tire of them and love them. As their aunt, I am inwardly divided.
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
There seems to be a consensus emerging on this thread that a little bit of harmless fantasy and willing suspension of disbelief never did anyone any harm. And also that it doesn't do to get all het up and earnest about the subject.
When my elder son was born, I made a decision (probably a little too earnestly) that I wasn't going to lie to him about Santa and that it would always be made clear to him that the presents came from people he actually knew. Which was fine for the first 4 years or so. But when he started school, he got caught up in the whole fantasy and became a true believer in Father Christmas. Now he is 8 and has developed an interesting cosmology of Santa, which mainly concentrates on rationalising how he can be in so many shops at once (They are helpers if you are interested. the real one stays at the North Pole making toys). But it isn't really important to him and he does appreciate that the presents come from his parents and other loved ones (I still think this is very important). We don't make a fuss on Christmas Eve about putting out mince pies and carrots for the visitors. In fact we hardly mention it at all. But if he starts talking about Santa, I'm not going to burst his bubble by saying it's all a pack of lies.
I am fairly sure that he knows the difference between this fairy tale and my faith in Christ.
But of course, he is only one kid. We'll have to see if the same happens with the new baby as time goes on.
Posts: 903 | From: The Wool Basket | Registered: Mar 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
ok, a personal pet peeve. that santa-started-by-coke story is NOT TRUE! its a MYTH! and here refuted on snopes.com
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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
ok, why did that not make a link straight to the article? i don't know. but just use "santa claus coke" as search terms and you will find it.
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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
I have found the Santa Claus (or as known in our house - Father Christmas - my father was very, very high church) issue tricky since I have had children (now aged 12 and 15). My husband (church of Scotland / non church going family before discovering the true faith ie Episcopalian) thinks I am being stupid and too middle class and has no problems with it at all. So my children have had a split between putting out carrots for the reindeer and me harping on about the baby Jesus. It seems to have worked out okay really - they sing in the choir, serve and are reasonably nice to small children - they even seem to have faith.
(However I was always quite enthusiastic about the tooth fairy.)
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
ok, why did that not make a link straight to the article? i don't know. but just use "santa claus coke" as search terms and you will find it.
From the Coca Cola Company™ Website:
"In fact, the modern image of Santa Claus was created 71 years ago when Haddon Sundblom created him for The Coca-Cola Company's advertising campaign "
Coca Cola™
Of course he started as ST. Nick...and Finland and other countries all claim him as theirs here another country's exampleTurkish Santa.
Who made him "catch on" in America? I would have to say the Coca Cola Company. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
I got into trouble with my partner for not telling the children that Santa Claus was real and alive now.
I told them that it was a game children and parents played - we had the secret stocking presents (lots of little things, and always an orange and a gold coin) and the fun of hanging them up and exploring them in the morning - and now they are grown-ups they feel quite as happy about it as they did when they were little.
I couldn't lie to them; I had a horrible shock when my mother told me Santa wasn't real. I was sitting on the floor looking at a picture of a doll that I was going to ask him for and she snapped at me that she and my father were "Santa Claus" and I shouldn't be asking for something expensive.
However, my partner, I think, needed to be able to have his own fantasies about Father Christmas - it wasn't about the children having a good time, but about him having a good time and he whinged about my telling them the truth for years. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
i don't give a flying hoot what coke claims, they're lying. since you obviously didn't bother to do the search, and since i still can't make a link to the direct article, allow me to quote:
quote:
This legend is not true. Although some versions of the Santa Claus figure still had him attired in various colors of outfits past the beginning of the 20th century, the jolly, ruddy, sack-carrying Santa with a red suit and flowing white whiskers had become the standard image of Santa Claus by the 1920s, several years before Sundlom drew his first Santa illustration for Coca-Cola. As The New York Times reported on 27 November 1927:
A standardized Santa Claus appears to New York children. Height, weight, stature are almost exactly standardized, as are the red garments, the hood and the white whiskers. The pack full of toys, ruddy cheeks and nose, bushy eyebrows and a jolly, paunchy effect are also inevitable parts of the requisite make-up.
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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
Nicole, I did read the snopes article. I also was having fun with you...
Who made him "catch on" in America is what I said, not "who first conjured him up?"
The Coca Cola Company™ most carefully say they "created his MODERN IMAGE", which is a pretty broad expression. I mean, what exactly do they mean by that? I take it as the red dressed rosy checked version, an obviously tweaked image of the previous versoin.
I was yanking your chain, girly.
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Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
"conjured up by the Coca Cola Company#&153" in my first post in this thread should have been
"the modern image that the Coca Cola Company#&153 brought forth"
There now are you happy? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
then i hope you are going to straighten the record with your nephews and nieces, duchess, cause if you think its wrong to lie about the existance of santa claus, then it should be just as wrong to give them wrong info about where santa did come from.
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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
Nicole, I don't bring up the subject Santa Claus to my nephews and nice since I have my own inward battle about that and thankfully they never ask.
What I have been asked about though:
1) "What does rated X mean?"
2) "What does XXX mean?"
3) "Why aren't you married?"
4) "Who made God?"
5) "Where is heaven?"
6) "What did you GET ME?"
7) "Do you have a boy friend?"
8) "Why do you keep telling us bible stories? I want another story!"
9) "Am I going to die?"
10) "Do people go to Santa Claus when they die?"
Last question shows you why I hate the issue of Santa Claus.
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Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
In front of all my nephews and niece, I talked to their mom about where Santa Claus came from...conjured up by the Coca Cola Company™ ...
ok, so i hope you correct the record with your sister in front of all your nephews and nieces.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
oh, and as to
quote:
10) "Do people go to Santa Claus when they die?"
i should think you'd welcome the opertunity to set the record straight and pass one what you do believe.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
One last post for the day for me... quote:
Originally posted by ThoughtCriminal:
This Anglican vicar is in trouble for using factual science to disprove to kids the existence of Santa Claus... was it the right thing for him to do?
Frankly, if nothing else, I think it was the wrong thing to do because he was basing his arguments on utterly false premises, i.e., that something which, in legend and fable, has always been treated as supernatural, "couldn't be true" because of the "natural laws" it goes against.
[snooty professor voice]
This is an erroneous logical fallacy!
[/snooty professor voice]
If something supernaturally abrogates or transcends the conventions of nature we call "scientific laws" (whether it is Santa flying in his non-flaming chariot, or Elijah in his flaming model, or Jesus sans any chariot at all), then explaining which scientific conventions it abrogates really isn't an argument, just more detail. Arguing against the existence of the supernatural, or against this specific instance of the supernatural, is another matter, but he wasn't even doing that.
quote:
Originally posted by Bonzo:
I lied to my children about Father Christmas and about the tooth fairy and I told them that goblins live in holes in tree stumps and that the moon is made of cheese.
... I suspect, looking back, they are glad they had parents that joined in the fun.
And I suspect the goblins are too.
quote:
Originally posted by Enosh:
However, we resolved to stick to our priciples and tell the truth as far as we knew it - Father Christmas was a kind man who lived a long time ago and who gave presents to children at Christmas time. Today we pretend that Father Christmas is still here and that he gives presents to people so that they can celebrate (the baby) Jesus being born.
To our surprise (though I guess it shouldn't have come as a surprise) the children were able to easily accept this fact, but we were still able to join in the fun of talking about Father Christmas as though he were real. The children had been included in the conspiracy!
Well done!! ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Lurker:
I too would distinguish between lies and fantasy. Kids don't stop believing in God because they think "My parents lied about Santa, perhaps they lied about Jesus", they stop because their parents are not living the faith they profess. If you live as if God was unreal, like Santa, that's what your children will believe, regardless of what you actually believe.
Wow. Well said!
quote:
Originally posted by silverfran:
I do believe that it is the intention behind the action that creates its meaning-e.g just because Christmas falls close to Yule doesn't mean its a pagan festival redressed.
...
If the Christmas message is truly lost in the spiral of consumerism maybe we need to shift the emphasis from contemporary pagan icons to God???
Maybe we shouldn;t be talking about Santa at all?
I'd say more a pagan festival baptised.
I also don't think the notion of Santa (hmmm, benevolent powerful being who sees into people's hearts and bestows blessings upon them, continuously laughing with joy, seen by some as rewarding goodness and punishing badness, far away yet very near...) is what's emphasising consumerism any more than our belief in God is. One could take the other tack and say that if people believed in Santa for real then they would frankly be less consumerist.
Perhaps we're lucky -- poor Santa, the shops and businesses and advertisers have misused his image -- but wouldn't it be far worse if they did that to Jesus! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) (Yes, it could be argued that in some times and places, including now, some have done and do that (selling indulgences centuries ago, TV evangelists now, etc.), but it's not quite so mainstream today as, say, Coca-Cola or the malls.)
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Christmas just wouldn't be Christmas without ...
'Tis the season! Slow news day, too, perhaps...
Maybe there's just one vicar who does this every year, sort of a Christmas tradition. Other people take up caroling. It's just his way...
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I object to saying that kids fall away from the faith because their parents don't live it. Any church has any number of families which disprove such a thesis. It's just more Freudian blame-the-parents-ism which refuses to acknowledge that kids make choices and aren't merely passive victims of everything that happens around them.
Oh, um, that's also true. But I do think how people act really does make a difference when children are watching, which was the point I derived from it.
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
He just probably thought his audience was older.
Aha, so he just needs new glasses.
Hmmm, perhaps a certain someone might put some into his Christmas stocking...
... if there's room for them with all the coal!! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by duchess [green]:
I know I hate Santa Claus in theology (rather children look to Jesus on Christmas) but I love seeing their faces light up...I keep reading these fantasy stories since they never tire of them and love them. As their aunt ...
Then, my dear lady, you are Auntie Claus, or their very own Auntie Claus, and that perhaps matters more in the long run. ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
in our house - Father Christmas - my father was very, very high church
Does that mean you would address him as "Your Grace"? Just curious...
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
I had a horrible shock when my mother told me Santa wasn't real.
*hug*
My own thoughts are pretty much tell the children the story of Father Christmas as a story, with some discussion of the legends of St. Nicholas as a very definitely real saint, and if they ask for more info ("But does he really travel around the world on Christmas?") then tell them the truth. That is, the real truth: "I don't know." (I certainly don't know that he doesn't, myself; I tend to think not, though I rather imagine we'll meet the real St. Nicholas in Heaven one day regardless... I do wonder if families whose faith includes devotion to the saints have less trouble with this because of the genuine belief in continued, active posthumous involvement by all the saints, including Nicholas...)
But certainly being able to enter into it with the children as a consciously playful "let's pretend" story sounds like a way to keep the fun and not be worried about "lying" to them, as Enosh suggests.
Merry Christmas, everyone!
David
yes, Virginia
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I cannot remember who posted that she was crushed when her mother told her there was no Santa, but I would think that quite unusual. Most children know, all too well, that it is a story!
How well I recall, several years ago, when someone I knew (J.) was raising her granddaughter (E.). Determined that the child not be forced to "grow up too fast" (...I resisted replying that most kids today seem barely allowed to grow up at all), it was very critical to J. that said granddaughter, who must have been 11 at the time, not be deprived of the joys of Santa. (Having raised 8 children of her own, one would think J. would have known that E. was past Santa age.)
Well, E. did not disappoint her Gran... she assembled an enormous list of items she wanted. In fact, at the last minute, she mentioned how there were things she had not placed on the list, but "Santa knows what is in my heart."
Now, just who is telling the bigger story here?
(Incidentally, in case anyone better off wondered - I fortunately always had necessities of life, but grew up in a frugal, working class home. Never did we wonder why we received only one present - plus underwear - when others received so much. And we went back to the Italian customs, eliminating Santa altogether, when the youngest was five!)
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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ej
Shipmate
# 2259
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Posted
I got into this debate last night with my own parents, as I expressed that we wouldn't be telling our (yet to arrive) kids that Santa was real...
I tend to agree with most of the sentiments expressed here, but I have to admit that my desire to regard Santa as bunkum for my family comes more from the relative bastardisation of Christmas, with it becoming the self-centred, materialistic, consumer-frenzy grab-fest with Santa as it's patron saint and head-pusher... I would rather my kids know that their presents came from people who loved them and cared about them and who are giving them in memory of God's gift to us, rather than some strange guy who invades their home, dressed in highly inappropriate clothes for an Australian summer!
Plus, to get involved in the Santa myth is just too complicated, what with all the Santa's around the place nowadays... You can see about 12 in your local shopping centre...
But then I'm weird - we're also debating tossing the whole giving of presents thing for something a little more social justicy, or making up our own delightful little non-materialistic rituals for Christmas. I know they'll be miffed when they compare at school, but I think the development of a rich family tradition and culture far outweights a closet full of plastic toys.
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For my next trick I shall turn this water into funk...
...a little breathing-space...
Posts: 426 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jan 2002
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
We ended up doing something quite similar to Enosh. (And therefore, I think he's brilliant.) We had read enough fiction aloud to be able to comfortably use the idea of "Santa is like a person in a book." And we told them that schoolmates might believe, so not to upset them. Kids develop their own solutions. Jonathan and his nursery school friends eventually decided that Santa was real at some houses but not at others. Wish I'd thought of that.
I wouldn't get caught whacking at the straw man of not liking make believe. Most No Claus families enjoy other pretend moments. At our house, we gave directions by saying "..and continue on until you get to the house where all the boys and half the girls in the neighborhood are dressing up and whapping each other with swords." Tangentially, sword-obsession is what you get when you forbid boys to play guns. Fair trade, I think.
General exemption from the following criticism for people who showed reasonable caution:
I think I can sense (and I'll bet Mousethief and others can also) who among you knows a lot about bringing up children in the faith even though they haven't tried it...
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
My husband and I would have preferred not to have our two daughters (now adults) believe in Santa Claus. We were afraid, though, that they might think there was a Santa, and for some reason he wasn't bringing them anything.
We compromised by not teaching our kids about Santa, but also not contradicting what they learned from other children. When each of them was about seven she asked whether Santa was real. We said no, but we didn't want them to feel left out when the other children talked about Santa.
We made it clear, however, that the important thing about Christmas was the birth of Jesus. We took them to the midnight service every year. When they were very small we just lifted them from their beds, wrapped them in blankets, and held them in our arms through the whole service. When they got older we had them put on pantsuits over their pajamas. Going to church in the middle of the night was a once-a-year experience, and it made an impression on them. (NB they were never at all disruptive. They wanted cuddling, but it's nice to cuddle a child in church on Christmas Eve.) There was no way they could think that the only point to Christmas was presents.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Removing tongue from cheek for a moment...
Don't replace presents with forced social justice action. (Yes, I spent many a Christmas working with the homeless, but that was as an adult, by my own choice.) Tokens of love and thoughtfulness we share with others are very important - and one need never fall into commercialism to be caring.
The people who are our friends or family are not less important than others (whom we do not know) who are in need. Kids can live without literally believing in Father Christmas (as I've said, most of them do not really believe in the first place), but don't keep them from enjoying a remembrance at Christmas in order to make points about social justice. Kids deprived in that fashion are likely to grow up with a strong desire to over compensate.(Calvinists hated Christmas - but they gave us capitalism, I believe...)
Now that I have ruined the thread, I shall add one more dreadful comment. I personally think that, for a parent to tell a child that certain presents are too expensive (and exactly from where the presents come) is a far wiser and actually more loving move than going into debt with plastic. And wouldn't we all, deep down, rather receive a gift from someone who loves and cares for us than from some mythic figure who rides reindeer?
Incidentally... just where do goblins live if not in the knots of trees?
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by logician:
In the space of two weeks, I read two people and heard two others say "I gave up believing in God about the same time I gave up believing in Santa," or "Our parents lied to us about Santa. Maybe they lied about God..."
Well, I don't know - after hearing things such as "I stopped being Christian because everyone I knew was such a hypocrite," I suppose this approach can be praised in that it is, at least, different... Probably less true than the Santa legend, and the latter has more charm, but at least different..
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
And we went back to the Italian customs, eliminating Santa altogether, when the youngest was five!
Did anyone ask "Is Befana Santa's wife?"
(I've pondered the idea of some kind of Christmas story in which Father Christmas and La Befana and perhaps others meet, but have no idea what should happen next...)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
This is sort of off-topic, but . . .
My guess is that when the vicar was telling children that Santa Claus was scientifically impossible, he was trying to be funny and it backfired. There was a tongue-in-cheek article a while back called The Physics of Santa Claus.
...
the vicar ...probably thought his audience was older.
He was on the Today Programme on Radio 4 yesterday morning and yes exactly he was quoting
quote:
The Physics of Santa Claus
The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flame ...will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. ...In conclusion - If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now..
He was speaking to a school and was trying to make some humorous points - but was more accustomed to speaking to older children and didn't realise there were 5 and 6 year olds. It's all been blown up in a bit of a ridiculous way.
To be honest, I can't remember what I was told about Santa when I was growing up. Santa was never very important. I was always very clear that I was very much loved and the particular fantasy figures with which the world of the imagination are peopled don't really matter much compared with that.
Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by day_thomas:
But surely it helps if the main christian influences on your life act like christians.
It is neither necessary nor sufficient, and especially not sufficient. You can't extrapolate from YOUR reasons for your choices to EVERYONE's reasons. To do so is arrogant and cruel.
quote:
There are always going to be exceptions, but if your main christian influences act as though God isnt true, than you will start to believe that.
Perhaps. But from this it does NOT in any way follow that if someone believes God isn't true, it must be because their main Christian influences acted as if he weren't.
What do they teach them in these schools?
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mr Pete
Apprentice
# 3606
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Posted
The thing that gets me is I've heard a university lectuerer talk on this same subject (well How Santa does it anyway.) And it's perfectly feasible for Santa to manage it, with just the thireteen Reindeer.
I was always more worried about the fact that seemed to be a bit drunk for a man in charge of a vehicle moving at that kind of speed.....
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May God give you his deepest peace and most massive joy. Always
Mr.Pete.
Posts: 14 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Nov 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
(or as known in our house - Father Christmas - my father was very, very high church)
Don't know it's anything to do with churchmanship. He is Father Christmas; "Santa Claus" is an import from continental Europe via the US.
There are some subtle differences, though. Santa seems to wear a short tunic. Father Christmas' cloak is longer. Santa wears a hat; Father Christmas has a hood on his cloak.
At least, that's the image I grew up with. Oh, and Santa's fatter.
Finally, Santa Claus is an obscure saint raised to a sort of folklore demi-god status. Father Christmas is an anthropromorphic representation of Yuletide festivity, subsuming Christmas into itself.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
My parents had to disillusion me about Santa from the very beginning.
I must have been either 3 or 4, when my mother told me to hang my stocking up on the end of my bed, and Father Christmas would come down the chimney in the night and fill it.
I completely freaked out, and started crying inconsolably, that I didn't want some strange man coming into my bedroom when I was asleep.
So my mother had to tell me very nicely that it would really be daddy, and people just pretended it was Father Christmas. But not to tell my sister who was two years younger.... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I actually think the American "Santa" concept, where the stockings are by the chimney in the living room, is perhaps slightly less traumatizing for any other kids who are as sensitive as I obviously was....
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I once heard an anthropologist explain the origins of Father Christmas like this.
In north European shamanism, the shaman will often use fly agaric mushrooms as a hallucinogenic drug. In a time of crisis, the shaman eats some mushroom (a sub-lethal dose, he hopes) then climbs up a birch tree (fly agaric grows in symbiosis with birch) and has his visions. After a day or two he returns to the community and tells them about the places he's been. In his trance he flies through the air, and secretly visits members of the tribe by coming down the smoke holes of their houses. He has seen all sorts of wonderful things which the people don't really understand, and believes that he has somehow sorted things out with the spirit world or whatever. Everyone feels better.
This has it all. Flying through the sky (pulled presumably by the only beast of burden in the far north, caribou or reindeer), trees, coming down smoke holes, or chimneys, lapland links and a mysterious old man. And fly agaric is a bright red mushroom with white trim - well, white bits stuck on it.
What a great story! (The anthropologist was talking to a theological conference and suggesting that theology and ministry was, like the shaman's work, something that normal people wouldn't expect to understand, but would accept was important and would feel better as a result of.)
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
My daughter (now 13...) confided in me when she was 3 or 4 that she just pretended to believe in Father Christmas because her Mum seemed to want her to.
But by the time she was 6 or 7 it was "when I was little I used to believe in Father Christmas".
Just for myself, I can't imagine circumstances under which I would lie or pretend to a child, or anyone else, about Father Christmas. I have no memory whatsoever of ever thinking that such stories were true when I was a kid, and I don't find the idea of children believing untruths to be cute.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Phew!
The Daily Mail published a scientific refutation this morning of Rev Rayfield's position, explaining precisely how it is entirely plausible that Santa could do what he's meant to. It was a great relief. (Sadly the Mail does not put its articles online, so no link.)
I was reading the original article with a friend who's not a Christian, who made the observation that Christianity depends not on fantasy but on the ability to believe exciting and mysterious things outside your own experience. So, Santa seems like pretty good training to me.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I once heard an anthropologist explain the origins of Father Christmas like this.
Wonder what a real shaman would make of that... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mr Pete
Apprentice
# 3606
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Posted
We (me an my sister) always put our stockings up in our living room....
Nad what do you mean ther's no santa/father c.???? ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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May God give you his deepest peace and most massive joy. Always
Mr.Pete.
Posts: 14 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Nov 2002
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