Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
...
"He descended into Hell (or Sheol)" is trickier, to be honest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:
Interestingly enough, Grudem has a problem with that line too.

---

And so do I. When taking part in a service which includes a recitation of the Apostles' Creed (and I'm very wide-ranging in the kinds of services I join in) I omit that phrase. I do take care to think about the words that I'm led into saying during liturgical services.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of all the lines in either Nicene or Apostles, that's the one that's hardest for evangelicals. Because, it's only tenuously supported by Scripture, and some of those supporting verses are among the most difficult to interpret. Even worse, it's a line that relates to an understanding of death most evangelicals don't share. Generally evangelicals will believe either that on death we are judged or we are unconscious and unaware until awakened for judgement at the Second Coming, and from there to Heaven or Hell with Hell being either a place of eternal torment in punishment for sins or oblivion. A Sheol where the dead wait around for judgement is something alien, with shades of that Purgatory nonsense that we Protestants rid ourselves of at the Reformation.

The times I've been at churches using the Apostles Creed generally the phrase has been translated to "he descended to the dead", which most can say as just a poetic statement "he was really, truly, totally dead". But, it is a phrase that many would read as saying something much more than that. I don't even know the circumstances of what was going on in the Church that caused that phrase to be included, what heresy were people falling into that needed a statement that Christ descended to Sheol to counter?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
He certainly descended in to Hell. The grave. He certainly didn't harrow it. That's an absurdly entity proliferating misinterpretation. And not in the Nicene or Constantinopolitan creeds. Nor is any wild, mandatory extrapolation of the church beyond militant and metaphoric.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
I'd see myself as moderately evangelical in the English and CofE sense of the word rather than the American one, but I have to admit I'm puzzled by this questioning of the descent into hell. I haven't really picked this one up before.

Is it because there isn't enough mention of it in scripture (one, I think, but a fairly clear one) so that people feel it's a more optional belief, rather than one to be insisted upon, even if the vast majority of us do actually accept it? Or is there a significant constituency who think it's actually wrong?

It strikes me as fairly obvious that when Jesus died, as Son of Man, he went where we all go when we die, but as Son of God, the grave could not hold him. He harrowed hell, rose from the dead and led captivity captive. When light came into the ultimate place of darkness, the darkness could not 'comprehend' (in it's literal sense) it. What's the problem?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:
He told the thief on the cross that thy would be together in paradise that very day.

Oh, and is seems to suggest that Jesus' saving work began before his resurrection thus driving a wedge between the cross and the resurrection and, implicitly, downplaying the soteriological significance of the resurrection.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The resurrection, though, is the breaking of the power of death and hell. It is the moment of triumph, it is not the battle.

Using Christ's words to the thief to argue against the harrowing of hell implies that Jesus went for a quick jaunt to heaven between the crucifixion and resurrection which is a... pretty bizarre take.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:
I'm not necessarily advocating the position. I'm just stating it out of interest in the conversation. It may be that Christ proclaimed his victory in hell "that day" and entered paradise. I don't think it's at all weird to think that Jesus went to heaven between his death and resurrection.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Eh? God the Son's saving work began before creation. That's as evangelical a doctrine as you like. Fully biblical.

Jesus's saving work on earth, (insofar as we can think of Jesus apart from God the Son, being good Chalcedonians) begins at his conception and birth. "For unto you is born this day a saviour, which is Christ the Lord". The baby Jesus was a worthy object of worship, before he had done anything yet. The angels sang it, so it must be true

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd have thought that a good Calvinist like your good self, daronmedway, would emphasise that Christ's soteriological work started way before the crucifixion, way before the Incarnation even ... 'the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth.'

It's all there in eternity, before Abraham was I am and so on ... before anything that has been made was made ...

I agree with you and the other reformed, Reformed and evangelical or Evangelical posters on this thread that the cross should be central ... but it's not the cross in isolation.

The 'Christ event' encompasses the whole thing, as I'm sure we'd all agree - his pre-existence as the eternal Word, his glorious Incarnation, his life, ministry, teachings, his passion, death and resurrection, his ascension and seating at the right-hand of God the Father, his coming again in glory ...

It doesn't do to fillet out any of these things from the whole, whether the crucifixion, resurrection, the moral teachings or anything else - it's all of a piece.

But you knew that already.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
My take on "descended to the dead" may be unorthodox! The harrowing of Hell understanding, however "true" or "mythological" it might be, may point to a significant truth. The love of God which is seen in Christ Jesus our Lord and demonstrated on the cross, transcends both time and the flow of time.

I think folks may have been wrestling with the eternal fate of those born before the crucifixion, before the proclamation of the gospel in post-resurrection time. The BC dimension, if you like. The notion of a rescue mission may fit in with that. The light shone not just on those who walked in darkness but were imprisoned in it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:
That was also my first thought when thinking about this topic a few years ago.

Plus - if you want to build a theology around edge cases - take this together with the parable on Lazarus, and you get the idea that everyone is in Sheol at the moment, with some in the good bit (Paradise) and some in the other bit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As I have explained many times here, the harrowing of hell is just bad hermeneutics based on Peter's arcane style.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:
Oh, and it seems to suggest that Jesus' saving work began before his resurrection thus driving a wedge between the cross and the resurrection and, implicitly, downplaying the soteriological significance of the resurrection.

---

Eh? God the Son's saving work began before creation. That's as evangelical a doctrine as you like. Fully biblical.

Jesus's saving work on earth, (insofar as we can think of Jesus apart from God the Son, being good Chalcedonians) begins at his conception and birth. "For unto you is born this day a saviour, which is Christ the Lord". The baby Jesus was a worthy object of worship, before he had done anything yet. The angels sang it, so it must be true

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness”. 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

In this sense, ISTM, that the objective reality of atonement for sin and justification by faith require a crucified and risen Lord Jesus Christ. This seems to cast a question mark over the harrowing of hell, unless I'm missing something of course.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:
ISTM, that the objective reality of atonement for sin and justification by faith require a crucified and risen Lord Jesus Christ. This seems to cast a question mark over the harrowing of hell, unless I'm missing something of course.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Sheol is quite different to Hell. The Sheol or 'the grave' that the Israelites believed in was not a place of pain and torment, but silence and sleep. Everybody went there, righteous and unrighteous - we know from the OT that David goes there when he dies. When I read 'He descended to the dead' in the Creed, this is where I think Christ went, and after His resurrection no longer exists. I do not believe in a Hell.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Sheol is quite different to Hell. The Sheol or 'the grave' that the Israelites believed in was not a place of pain and torment, but silence and sleep. Everybody went there, righteous and unrighteous - we know from the OT that David goes there when he dies. When I read 'He descended to the dead' in the Creed, this is where I think Christ went, and after His resurrection no longer exists. I do not believe in a Hell.

---

Yes, well that was all David knew. Jesus spoke a little clearer and revealed much more than they knew 1200 years beforehand. You have to do a lot of filleting of the New Testament to get rid of hell.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Except that the NT doesn't speak of eternal torment. Some torment yes, but not a permanent Hell. I do believe in Purgatory but not Hell.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

---

You have to do a lot of filleting of the New Testament to get rid of hell.

---

Except that the NT doesn't speak of eternal torment. Some torment yes, but not a permanent Hell. I do believe in Purgatory but not Hell.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that our justification - and therefore our ability to stand faultless before the throne of the almighty - is explicitly linked by the Apostle Paul to the resurrection, and Abraham's presumptive faith in that resurrection. As Paul says in Romans 4:

quote:

---

22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness”. 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

---

In this sense, ISTM, that the objective reality of atonement for sin and justification by faith require a crucified and risen Lord Jesus Christ. This seems to cast a question mark over the harrowing of hell, unless I'm missing something of course.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[ You have to do a lot of filleting of the New Testament to get rid of hell.

---

Except that the NT doesn't speak of eternal torment. Some torment yes, but not a permanent Hell. I do believe in Purgatory but not Hell.

---

You drove me to it because it seems you've already filleted your New Testament:


Matthew 25:41 ESV

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


Matthew 25:46 ESV

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Mark 9:48 ESV

‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

---

Well that is from the Evangelical Standard Version Of course it's going to promote a belief in Hell since it benefits evangelicals.

Sorry, I believe in a loving and all-powerful God, which means a permanent Hell is impossible.

[descended into confusing code hell]

[ 22. December 2013, 06:08: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
And before I get criticised for 'picking and choosing', everyone does this.
...

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
To the best of my knowledge, the creedal phrase under discussion is derived from 1 Pet.3:19-20. (Link gives fuller context.) If any shipmate knows of any other biblical source(s) I’d be glad to know of it.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


The NT writers weren't Protestants, of course.

Funny that ...

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
I've always found it interesting that at least some Portuguese (Brazilian) versions of the Apostle's Creed say "He descended into the world of the dead" (Desceu ao mundo dos mortos.)

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Therefore 'he descended into hell' isn't just a neutral summary for information purposes, it's there because some people were teaching other that this and it needed to be written that contrary to what some were teaching, Christ did indeed descend to the place of the dead before he ascended to the right hand of the Father. I don't know what heresy , what controversy that was addressing, but the writer of the creed evidently found it necessary to write those 4 words to counteract what was being falsely taught.

---

quote:

---

In Gaul, in the fifth century, the phrase "he descended into hell" came into the creed.

---

quote:

---

Without older versions to trace the historical development of the Creed, to determine whether there was an error of transmission or translation, the addition of this phrase to the Creed will continue to be a mystery

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Therefore 'he descended into hell' isn't just a neutral summary for information purposes, it's there because some people were teaching other that this and it needed to be written that contrary to what some were teaching, Christ did indeed descend to the place of the dead before he ascended to the right hand of the Father. I don't know what heresy , what controversy that was addressing, but the writer of the creed evidently found it necessary to write those 4 words to counteract what was being falsely taught.

---

I've been spending a bit of time trying to answer the question "what heresy does this phrase guard against?".

Historical background at creeds.net isn't very extensive or useful on this point

quote:

---

In Gaul, in the fifth century, the phrase "he descended into hell" came into the creed.

---

I found a quote attributed to Dr. Douglas Mar on a couple of sites (without full citation)

quote:

---

Without older versions to trace the historical development of the Creed, to determine whether there was an error of transmission or translation, the addition of this phrase to the Creed will continue to be a mystery

---

That seems to be a fair summary of my internet research!

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
I've always found it interesting that at least some Portuguese (Brazilian) versions of the Apostle's Creed say "He descended into the world of the dead" (Desceu ao mundo dos mortos.)

---

Yes, the French ones say aux enfers (literally "hells", usually understood as "the place of the dead").

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I've just had a very brief skim through the relevant chapter in William Barclay's The Plain Man Looks at the Apostles' Creed' and I have 30 seconds in which to say that he feels that t simply means 'dead and buried' - a flowery way of saying that he was truly dead! It was a way of confirming and reiterating the phrase 'was crucified, dead and buried'.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Maybe there were those who said that he rather slept for the three days before his resurrection and didn't actually experience the realm of the dead like us 'mere mortals'.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What is (or was) Sheol or Gehenna, and do either of those words equate to the traditional Christian understanding of Hell?

I think the earliest available form of the Apostles' Creed is in Latin and the term used "ad inferos" has been, somewhat loosely, translated as "Hell", rather than "the place of the dead". The Greek of 1 Peter 3 looks as though it means that after his death Jesus preached to "the spirits in prison".

As best I understand it, Catholic understandings of Limbo, Purgatory, Heaven and Hell are a development of some of these basic ideas.

Catholic Catechism

A particular Catholic view.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
To the best of my knowledge, the creedal phrase under discussion is derived from 1 Pet.3:19-20. (Link gives fuller context.) If any shipmate knows of any other biblical source(s) I’d be glad to know of it.

---

...
But mixed in with that relatively straight forward message is a load of stuff about preaching to spirits in prison - which spirits, which prison, what message? And, if it's the spirits of the dead, why (apparently) only to those who died in the Flood?

---

The answer to those questions can be found on pp.269-270 of the book I referred to (and I know that's fat use if you can't get hold of a copy ). I might find the time to summarise the information, or perhaps the quickest solution would be to copy the passage. Would a 400 word attributed quotation (or perhaps I could edit it down to 300) be acceptable to the Hosts under the fair use provisions of the Copyright Act?
Angus

Posted                      

quote:

---

Gamaliel: Dante's Inferno is a poem, in case you hadn't noticed.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You are far too literal, Mudfrog. Some scholars suggest that Dante himself probably didn't understand these things in as literal a sense as you've taken them here.

Dante's Inferno is a poem, in case you hadn't noticed. Are we saying that Milton was being literal when he had the Fallen Angels constructing cannon for their battle with the Unfallen Angels?

---

yourself re: the poetry

Anyway, the point I was making was not whether I, Sante or the scholars take his visions of hell literally, but that the 'Christian' culture has taken on these medieval visions and pictures and has made them the template for what we popularly believe about hell - so we have red devils with pitchforks and Satan welcoming the damned people to his realm where he can torment them as if he were God's very own high executioner, doing His work for Him.

Similarly, those who deserve to go there - i.e. the young, the friendly and our grandmothers - are welcomed into a nice bright white-cloud Heaven with bewinged cherubs flitting around while we all play harps wearing hospital gowns and coathanger halos.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Do you in fact mean the incorrect traditional understanding of Hell?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You are far too literal, Mudfrog. Some scholars suggest that Dante himself probably didn't understand these things in as literal a sense as you've taken them here.

Dante's Inferno is a poem, in case you hadn't noticed. Are we saying that Milton was being literal when he had the Fallen Angels constructing cannon for their battle with the Unfallen Angels?

---

yourself re: the poetry

Anyway, the point I was making was not whether I, Sante or the scholars take his visions of hell literally, but that the 'Christian' culture has taken on these medieval visions and pictures and has made them the template for what we popularly believe about hell - so we have red devils with pitchforks and Satan welcoming the damned people to his realm where he can torment them as if he were God's very own high executioner, doing His work for Him.

Similarly, those who deserve to go there - i.e. the young, the friendly and our grandmothers - are welcomed into a nice bright white-cloud Heaven with bewinged cherubs flitting around while we all play harps wearing hospital gowns and coathanger halos.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
Would a 400 word attributed quotation (or perhaps I could edit it down to 300) be acceptable to the Hosts under the fair use provisions of the Copyright Act?
Angus

---

hosting/
Thanks for asking first

The issue is not in fact whether a quotation's use complies with a specific law, but whether the hosts and admins feel comfortable with it being fair use. To me 300 words sounds too long - in fact, much too long. You could try looking on Google Books and adding a link, alternatively write a summary in your own words - which will doubtless be read more closely by more here.
/hosting

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:

...

.......... 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,

............ (Who? Peter answers this in the identical context in his next epistle. Funny that. That nobody ever sees that. But me?! (a))
...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
... Jesus ... went to the prison of the fallen angels (who are also referred to in 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6) to announce that through his death and resurrection he had been victorious over all spiritual powers, and that their judgement was assured. ...

---