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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The church has no choice but to act over poverty
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
This is bishop David Walker, writing in
yesterday's Observer.
I particularly liked the Desmond Tutu quote:
quote:
The Bish:
When you've fished enough people out of the river, it's time to take a walk upstream and see who's pushing them in.
Discuss.
AFZ
[ 28. June 2014, 09:43: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Shame that it's impossible to express any opinion that includes "as a Christian" on The Guardian website without the most trite and obvious criticisms of organized religion - by people I must presume have Google alerts set up specifically to find and disparage any articles that remotely suggest religion might be a positive thing in some people's lives.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'd have more respect for the bishops if they acted within the CofE to cut waste: - reducing the number of diocese
- not replacing suffragans - with few exceptions they're not needed
- apart from the Dean and Precentor making cathedral chapter clergy do more
- amalgamating groups of diocesan administrative functions into regional hubs
- cut salaries for bishops by 5%
- did something to properly remunerate NSMs for the work they do
- ensured that clergy pensions are flat rate - 40 years service for a vicar should get the same as 40 years retiring a bishop
They could then move to ensure that church schools, at least, had a longer working day so that parents didn't have to find so much for childcare. And the same schools should have lessons in life-skills such as proper cooking, budgeting, mending and sewing, basic DIY, etc.
And they should look at the goings-on in the Church Commissioners' Estates Department which means that farm rents have rocketed in the past 10 years, cottages have been sold-off to weekenders (our local dairy farm's cowman travels 17 miles from an urban council flat for a 5am start) and cease such nonsense as is going on with the Palace in Wells.
When they've made a genuine start on that then perhaps people would take their hand-wringing seriously.
Yes, there are people in genuine poverty and it is a scandal - but the CofE is in a glasshouse.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I'd have more respect for the bishops if they acted within the CofE to cut waste:
I think acting as though the CofE saving a bit of money here and there, has anything to do with the larger fiscal and economic crisis in this country, is grossly unfair.
The church should speak up so that those with the power to make the macro-level changes required to improve life for the poor, can hear their voice.
I have a hard time believing that cutting bishop salaries 5% and changing vicar pensions, is going do anything for the poor in the slightest.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
When you've fished enough people out of the river, it's time to take a walk upstream and see who's pushing them in.
Very true providing there is an honest investigation in respect of 'who' or 'what' is pushing them in. I doubt the bishops are really up for this
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
quote:
When you've fished enough people out of the river, it's time to take a walk upstream and see who's pushing them in.
Very true providing there is an honest investigation in respect of 'who' or 'what' is pushing them in. I doubt the bishops are really up for this
It's their chums from the public schools. Even a simple thing like letting glebe land at a nominal rent for allotments would do something.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
seekingsister
Its called practising what you preach.
The CofE has an administrative structure that is incredibly wasteful (as well as being over-complex and old-fashioned) which is, above all else, bad stewardship of time and resources.
Evening out pensions and cutting episopal salaries would (a) concentrate the minds of those responsible for money management within the church at national level, and (b) show that the church was serious about dealing with inequality.
Solly is absolutely right: the bishops aren't interested in finding out for themselves about this issue, instead they've decided to jump onto a passing bandwagon which is swathed in very politically one-sided colours.
Moreover, some of the numbers used to prop up the campaign (led jointly by the Trussel Trust (TT) & Unite) are simply wrong. Ten year-on figures, for example, can't possibly exist since the TT didn't even start trying to get people to form them until 2004. Numbers of people being fed by foodbanks can't be given because one person is handed the food without any record being made of how many are in the family.
A social-worker friend is very sceptical about her local foodbank - as she has observed it is putting back another prop when people like her are working to help chaotic families become better organised; foodbanks are seen by some of her clients as a reason to not budget or plan.
As for the Mumsnet 'research' that 20% of mothers have gone hungry to feed their children: since this is a largely upper-middle class network I'd take that with a pinch of salt: endless worrying about whether or not Hugo would be better off as a day-boy at MT's or boarding at Charterhouse are not, on the whole, the primary problems faced by the genuinely needy.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Solly wrote:
quote:
quote:When you've fished enough people out of the river, it's time to take a walk upstream and see who's pushing them in.
Very true providing there is an honest investigation in respect of 'who' or 'what' is pushing them in. I doubt the bishops are really up for this
Please explain the reasons for your doubt
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The point is that the bishops do have better access to the media than individual priests would have, and that, in particular, they have a formal political voice.
At least DW has taken on a problem that matches the purpose of the church rather than trying to make life more miserable for GLBTs.
And, while some church stuff is too expensive or rich, there isn't enough there to make a difference except in symbolism. The government has to deal with the problems of all of its citizens, and does have the resources to make a difference.
I would spend my energy on getting Tories out of office across the board, which would make more difference to the groups who are being attacked under the deceitful guise of "the deficit" management.
Every Tory action is predicted on attacking the poor, the disadvantaged and just about everyone else who is "not Tory". This is true across the world, not just the UK, but may be more obvious in the UK. If a few Tory bishops lose their positions, that might not be a bad thing "pour encourager les autres*" as Napoleon might have said.
*To encourage the others
(interesting aside: my spell check is OK with "encourager" and "les" but dislikes "autres"
I suppose one who encourages could be lesbian, but it is a bit of a stretch)
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
seekingsister
Its called practising what you preach.
I understand your point in theory, but the world we live in is such that:
- any statement from any religious organization that supports "liberal" values is immediately viewed with suspicion by those who would make the most reasonable political allies
- any church action in political matters greater than their role in the House of Lords and public statement would be roundly attacked by all sides as an attempt to force religious values onto the secular state
- the CofE could strip itself to the barest minimum operating costs and there would still be loud public voices accusing them of brainwashing children through schools or hating minorities or the long list of other complaints repeatedly levelled at it
- independent churches, in which ministers are often paid much more than CofE clergy and have little to no public oversight, are growing
Either the church says something on this issue, or it says nothing. It will never be perfect enough to please everyone.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
A social-worker friend is very sceptical about her local foodbank - as she has observed it is putting back another prop when people like her are working to help chaotic families become better organised; foodbanks are seen by some of her clients as a reason to not budget or plan.
That's fine if you've enough social workers to do that. We aren't all so lucky. Around here, Elderly social care, mental health are all failing. In a town of more than 200,000 people, the average time from referral to interview is 8 weeks. What, pray, do you do in the meantime if you have nothing?
Again it's easy for a social worker on £25K+ to be sniffy about budgeting, but being on minimum wage isn't the same. What do you do when the school asks for money for something? Do you eat and turn down the school and risk your child being humiliated or do you pay the school and not eat?
As a school governor I've come across this more than once - most recently last week. I've also come across social workers and statutory agencies (including DWP) being reluctant to let churches step up to the plate and offer debt counselling and budgeting advice. In a couple of cases I've come across plain opposition, simply because it's a church offering the service. Never mind that its free, part of a national campaign and completely unpartisan as regards faith.
Social Workers are always right or in the right IME.
AS regards the stats, I agree that they are questionable. However a statistic masks a person or a family: I'd rather feed someone now who's hungry and ask the question of why it happens later or alongside it. No I don't stop asking why and in doing so it's got me into some pretty hot water locally as our local Tory doesn't like being called a sound bite opportunist in public. But hey, it's hardly different from the kind of shock treatment his party is handing out to the poor. Sadly our local churches tend to toady up to their MP's and hierarchy's and so are not asking the challenging questions.
In the inner city where I am now, poverty and deprivation are real today. Poverty determines so many things including potential, achievement and hope. I pray that we can do something to stop them being the determining factor for children's lives and future. Personally I'd do anything to stop that and in our own way here we are trying to do.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[QUOTE]Social Workers are always right or in the right IME.
Oops missed edit should be .... are NOT always right or in ....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
1. Independent churches, in which ministers are often paid much more than CofE clergy and have little to no public oversight, are growing
2. Either the church says something on this issue, or it says nothing. It will never be perfect enough to please everyone.
1. Some denominations e.g. Baptists are experiencing growth. Pay/pensions there is rather less than the equivalent CofE parish.
True we have no apparent public oversight other than our own members. Real risks yes but at its very it makes us accountable to no one other than God (and the Charities Commission!). We're light on our feet, can respond quickly to need (no faculties) and don't have expensive hierarchies. We're also not constrained by being the state church - which doesn't want to bite that hand that feeds it.
2. If you're going to get hung or criticised far better to have it happen for doing something rather than nothing.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
A social-worker friend is very sceptical about her local foodbank - as she has observed it is putting back another prop when people like her are working to help chaotic families become better organised; foodbanks are seen by some of her clients as a reason to not budget or plan.
Do food banks operate differently in different parts of the country? I ask because in our area you have to be referred to the food bank by a professional (doctor, health visitor, social worker, something like that). Once referred you get food for a maximum of three days per visit, and you can only be referred three times. As well as getting food, users are pointed towards agencies and projects where they can find longer-term help. The idea is that it provides emergency help in a crisis and works alongside people who are trying to help in the long term. People can't therefore normally become dependent on the food bank, so I find it hard to see how it would undermine what social workers are trying to do.
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
- independent churches, in which ministers are often paid much more than CofE clergy and have little to no public oversight, are growing
I need to find me one of those independent churches to be a minister of! Most of the independent churches I know the minister gets paid about the same as a C of E clergyperson but without the 4 bedroomed vicarage with study.
As for accountability, we're accountable to the members through the medium of public meetings. Some might suggest that this is rather better accountability than a denominational hierarchy which needs to protect the brand.
Anyway. A digression.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. Some denominations e.g. Baptists are experiencing growth. Pay/pensions there is rather less than the equivalent CofE parish.
I said "independent churches" so as not to be confused with denominations like Baptist, Methodist, etc.
There are lot of large Pentecostal churches in London for example whose pastors wear expensive suits and are well-compensated by their members. And their membership tends to be significantly less well off than that of the CofE.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I need to find me one of those independent churches to be a minister of! Most of the independent churches I know the minister gets paid about the same as a C of E clergyperson but without the 4 bedroomed vicarage with study.
I was part of a "non-denominational" church that ended up splintering into factions after the London congregation confronted leadership over six-figure pay packages. So yeah...it does happen.
And no, they weren't speaking up to defend the poor and mistreated in society either.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
seekingsister
Its called practising what you preach.
The CofE has an administrative structure that is incredibly wasteful (as well as being over-complex and old-fashioned) which is, above all else, bad stewardship of time and resources.
Evening out pensions and cutting episopal salaries would (a) concentrate the minds of those responsible for money management within the church at national level, and (b) show that the church was serious about dealing with inequality.
Solly is absolutely right: the bishops aren't interested in finding out for themselves about this issue, instead they've decided to jump onto a passing bandwagon which is swathed in very politically one-sided colours.
Moreover, some of the numbers used to prop up the campaign (led jointly by the Trussel Trust (TT) & Unite) are simply wrong. Ten year-on figures, for example, can't possibly exist since the TT didn't even start trying to get people to form them until 2004. Numbers of people being fed by foodbanks can't be given because one person is handed the food without any record being made of how many are in the family.
A social-worker friend is very sceptical about her local foodbank - as she has observed it is putting back another prop when people like her are working to help chaotic families become better organised; foodbanks are seen by some of her clients as a reason to not budget or plan.
As for the Mumsnet 'research' that 20% of mothers have gone hungry to feed their children: since this is a largely upper-middle class network I'd take that with a pinch of salt: endless worrying about whether or not Hugo would be better off as a day-boy at MT's or boarding at Charterhouse are not, on the whole, the primary problems faced by the genuinely needy.
Mumsnet is really not upper middle-class at all. Lots of parents on benefits there, particularly parents of disabled children.
And again, the church structure changing, whilst needed, won't actually change things for people who are starving. Bishops taking a pay cut won't put money in people's pockets.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
This is bishop David Walker, writing in
yesterday's Observer.
I particularly liked the Desmond Tutu quote:
quote:
The Bish:
When you've fished enough people out of the river, it's time to take a walk upstream and see who's pushing them in.
Discuss.
AFZ
Jesus would probably be a floating voter and not a member of a particular political party, probably. He wields a sword that cuts both ways. He might critique the pusher, the fool balancing on the parapet and those without the compassion to intervene in the event of disaster.
It is strange, because a faith of which the second greatest commandment is to love one's neighbour can't help but be political.
He probably wouldn't sign up to a particular denomination either. Some of us might be disappointed in that. If any failing stops us from speaking prophetically then we had better give up now.
Now, what are the many and varied ways that Jesus might try to influence the situation?
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Bishops taking a pay cut won't put money in people's pockets.
Funny, there are a lot of people who argue exactly that when it's Bankers and CEOs taking the theoretical pay cut rather than Bishops.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Originally posted by Exclamation Mark quote:
Again it's easy for a social worker on £25K+ to be sniffy about budgeting, but being on minimum wage isn't the same. What do you do when the school asks for money for something? Do you eat and turn down the school and risk your child being humiliated or do you pay the school and not eat?
Back in the days before Thatcher, when the school had an activity such as a field trip, when working out the cost, we would round up a little bit (a few pence) which would ensure that we were covered if anyone could not come, and that the poorest parents were not faced with that sort of choice. All done quietly and without embarrassment. Rather as professionals such as solicitors and doctors used to vary their charges to enable them to do work for the less well off. Then Mrs T. insisted that a) the cost should be exactly the cost for the particular child, and b) paying it should be voluntary. So there were parents who arrived outside the school in massive 4X4s making a public pronouncement about being entitled not to pay, while the poorer were faced with that sort of choice. And then the school had to abandon anythng that cost too much. Like running coaches to the swimming pool.
We were once able, out of the school fund (a voluntary donation from parents) to provide a pair of Erlen spectacles for a girl who found them the only way to read successfully. About £200. There was no way that family could have provided them. Can't do that sort of thing any more.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
A social-worker friend is very sceptical about her local foodbank - as she has observed it is putting back another prop when people like her are working to help chaotic families become better organised; foodbanks are seen by some of her clients as a reason to not budget or plan.
Do food banks operate differently in different parts of the country? I ask because in our area you have to be referred to the food bank by a professional (doctor, health visitor, social worker, something like that). Once referred you get food for a maximum of three days per visit, and you can only be referred three times. As well as getting food, users are pointed towards agencies and projects where they can find longer-term help. The idea is that it provides emergency help in a crisis and works alongside people who are trying to help in the long term. People can't therefore normally become dependent on the food bank, so I find it hard to see how it would undermine what social workers are trying to do.
Same here - with the addition of church leaders as referrers - who are all approved by the food bank
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Bishops taking a pay cut won't put money in people's pockets.
Funny, there are a lot of people who argue exactly that when it's Bankers and CEOs taking the theoretical pay cut rather than Bishops.
I don't think that's actually what people say, but rather that those who caused the recession are being rewarded whilst the most vulnerable (who played no part in it) are being punished. That's the scandal there. Nobody actually thinks that bankers being paid less will give poorer people money.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
As a school governor I've come across this more than once - most recently last week. I've also come across social workers and statutory agencies (including DWP) being reluctant to let churches step up to the plate and offer debt counselling and budgeting advice. In a couple of cases I've come across plain opposition, simply because it's a church offering the service. Never mind that its free, part of a national campaign and completely unpartisan as regards faith.
Christians Against Poverty is hardly 'unpartisan' - indeed, I specifically heard one of their speakers the other day saying that their course was a good way for the church to evangelise in our town.
I think that is utterly disgusting.
Of course, I don't know whether the course you refer to is a Christians Against Poverty course, however I think there is every reason for all people working for local authorities to be concerned about evangelistic courses masquarading as service to vulnerable people.
I also accept that this may not be the way that this particular course is spoken of elsewhere. I remain skeptical about the whole set-up of CaP.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
Posts: 812 | Registered: Jan 2011
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
Do food banks operate differently in different parts of the country? I ask because in our area you have to be referred to the food bank by a professional (doctor, health visitor, social worker, something like that). Once referred you get food for a maximum of three days per visit, and you can only be referred three times. As well as getting food, users are pointed towards agencies and projects where they can find longer-term help. The idea is that it provides emergency help in a crisis and works alongside people who are trying to help in the long term. People can't therefore normally become dependent on the food bank, so I find it hard to see how it would undermine what social workers are trying to do.
Food banks generally are divided into those run as franchises of the Trussell Trust, which run as you describe above, and those run independently.
I think it is hard to believe that anyone could become dependent on a foodbank (in one sense) however one might be able to argue that the presence of a foodbank is symptomatic of the idea of a safety-net, indicating that a community will not allow people with chaotic lives to go without food. I can believe that this might be used as an excuse by some people to avoid taking responsibility for themselves, but can't really believe that is a big thing for most people.
In general I don't believe that foodbanks really do very much for most people - for the reasons you've outlined above. If a family cannot afford food this week, what are the chances they will be able to next week - and if they've already accessed the foodbank twice in the last 12 months, what are they supposed to do next?
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Thank you Bishop David.
There was a time when a family falling on hard times could request all manner of council based loans, that had to be and were paid back. Those days are now gone.
Certainly round here people are being laid off work, so those numbers of people falling on hard times are going up, not down
There was also a time when social workers had a degree of discretion about doing a supermarket shop, for so called 'deserving poor'. Those days are also Very long gone.
Time was, when if the dole was stopped for any reason at all, it was only a week to wait until it was reinstated. It's every fortnight now.
Emergency payments used to be commonplace: they're now as rare as anything.
Citizens Advise Bureaux (CAB) staff could be relied upon to challenge (vigorously and swiftly) any unfair/unjust/illegal decision ...or even a genuine mistake...made by benefits staff. CAB staff and offices have now been cut, as have the work that they are allowed take on.
And no, the new alternative organisations are Not picking up the old work either.
When I had children in school we had nowhere Near the number of requests for money that families now have to contend with.
There was a time when applying for a new job was relatively straightforward: one went in person, sent a letter or made a phone call. A friend of mine faced barely concealed ridicule from the local Job Centre because he couldn't use a computer; never needed to for his previous (and only) job. He's been sent on a course to learn, only he's not learning fast enough. That's because he's not a young tech savy twenty year old. This is a person who held down a regular, stable, ordinary job...and then was made redundant. Like many others up and down the land.
Mercifully there are relatives and friends around to help with the bills and morale, but not everyone has that ready help.
There was a time...and it's not very long ago if we think about it....when there was no shame attached to loosing one's job and having to apply for benefits, to plug that gap between one job and another. Now the word is almost a term of abuse.
IMHO Bishop David would be failing in his role as a Bishop were he Not to speak out. And as our diocesan bishop I for one am very pleased to see him do so.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
quote:When you've fished enough people out of the river, it's time to take a walk upstream and see who's pushing them in.
Very true providing there is an honest investigation in respect of 'who' or 'what' is pushing them in. I doubt the bishops are really up for this
Please explain the reasons for your doubt
The bishops make pronouncements, usually aimed at the government (particularly the Conservatives) about so-called poverty without investigating the complex and varied reasons for it such as marriage and family breakdown, personal debt, job loss as well as problems with welfare benefits and without any encouragement for individual personal responsibility. Then they move on, satisfied that they have done their Christian duty quite painlessly because, it seems, we are all the State's responsibility now.
May I suggest that what people in trouble often need is an advocate - an articulate friend who will help them deal with authority, writing letters, making phone calls for them, acting as supporter and providing encouragement. The State is a big, impersonal organisation that cannot get everything right but the people that fall into the river are not very good at dealing with authority. Of course it is more time-consuming than writing letters of protest to a newspaper - but I think it's what Jesus meant when he talked about the neighbour principle. I think Jesus would approve of foodbanks too.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Bravo Solly.
It is all very easy for the bishop and the signatories to the letter to The Daily Mirror to take pot-shots at the government - but just because they say something wearing a pectoral cross doesn't make it true.
EE : there are social workers who are employed by people other than the local Social Services - think MU, Children's Society, Barnados, etc - and they work with individual families long-term, usually as part of a multi-disciplinary team. Unlike an SS employed social worker, my friend makes herself on-call 24 hours a day.
Penny S states that Mrs Thatcher stopped schools adding a few pence to the cost of an outing (or whatever) so that the poorer children could still take part. Do tell, Mrs S, WHERE did Mrs T stop this? Was it when she was Education Secretary in the early 1970s? I think you'll search in vain for anything anywhere that says schools can't add something extra to the cost of a trip - I say this since my own children's state school used to add the cost of the accompanying STAFF to school trips, as well as something for 'social funds', and that was as recently as 2012.
Every special interest group keeps saying their own particular pet scheme can't be cut - elderly, mental health, disabled, special needs, ex-prisoners, etc, etc, etc. We all - bishops included - need to get our heads around the idea that there is no money tree, the resources available are finite so difficult choices have to be made.
If the bishops - and individual churches - want to see how they might help on the ground they could do worse than look at the example of Octavia Hill: she didn't just provide housing but sent one of her ladies along every week to check on the family, to give advice - perhaps to give sharp words about cleanliness or work ethic too - as well as collect the rent.
No, I'm not suggesting there are 'deserving' poor, but I think some of the poor manage a lot better with the little they have than others, and that it would be better to teach skills than just give another handout.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
As a school governor I've come across this more than once - most recently last week. I've also come across social workers and statutory agencies (including DWP) being reluctant to let churches step up to the plate and offer debt counselling and budgeting advice. In a couple of cases I've come across plain opposition, simply because it's a church offering the service. Never mind that its free, part of a national campaign and completely unpartisan as regards faith.
Christians Against Poverty is hardly 'unpartisan' - indeed, I specifically heard one of their speakers the other day saying that their course was a good way for the church to evangelise in our town.
I think that is utterly disgusting.
Of course, I don't know whether the course you refer to is a Christians Against Poverty course, however I think there is every reason for all people working for local authorities to be concerned about evangelistic courses masquarading as service to vulnerable people.
I also accept that this may not be the way that this particular course is spoken of elsewhere. I remain skeptical about the whole set-up of CaP.
As you rightly say ... you don't know anything about this local situation which is quite clearly - on the basis of evidence and fact - different from yours. I'm on the ground and I know perhaps a little more. I'm also aware of the increasing demands on my (and others) time, in undertaking advocacy of behalf of people in real need, in the face of seemingly unfeeling and certainly unhelpful bureaucracy. You can count the local authority, social services and police in that.
Then again our council are only £120 odd million in debt and paying £10million interest charges each year, so selling community and children's centres makes real sense doesn't it? No one kicks the council for getting so far in debt but those who are redundant because of the down turn in the economy are the ones paying the real price.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Penny S states that Mrs Thatcher stopped schools adding a few pence to the cost of an outing (or whatever) so that the poorer children could still take part. Do tell, Mrs S, WHERE did Mrs T stop this? Was it when she was Education Secretary in the early 1970s? I think you'll search in vain for anything anywhere that says schools can't add something extra to the cost of a trip - I say this since my own children's state school used to add the cost of the accompanying STAFF to school trips, as well as something for 'social funds', and that was as recently as 2012.
Sorry I can't do chapter and verse, but it was some time ago, and I remember, very clearly, the changes being brought in and enforced. It was about the time that, resulting from some appeals made about Tiffin School's catchment area, it was made possible for children to cross authorities boundaries, eradicating catchment areas, so that in the area I lived, with grammars, on the borders of London, it became impossible for all the selectable children to go to the schools in our town because they filled up with children from Greater London. I think during Mrs T's PMship rather than her EdSec time.
Adding for the accompanying staff is part of the cost of the trip. Adding for the children of the precariat isn't. Of course, there may have been changes back since I retired, and well done if there are schools which buck the regulations anyway. But I know what happened back then, and the problems it caused. Particularly with those who could afford the "voluntary" payment and refused to pay. Other parents were not very appreciative of the freeloaders.
[ 03. March 2014, 18:33: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I'd have more respect for the bishops if they acted within the CofE to cut waste: - reducing the number of diocese
- not replacing suffragans - with few exceptions they're not needed
- apart from the Dean and Precentor making cathedral chapter clergy do more
- amalgamating groups of diocesan administrative functions into regional hubs
- cut salaries for bishops by 5%
- did something to properly remunerate NSMs for the work they do
- ensured that clergy pensions are flat rate - 40 years service for a vicar should get the same as 40 years retiring a bishop
They could then move to ensure that church schools, at least, had a longer working day so that parents didn't have to find so much for childcare. And the same schools should have lessons in life-skills such as proper cooking, budgeting, mending and sewing, basic DIY, etc.
And they should look at the goings-on in the Church Commissioners' Estates Department which means that farm rents have rocketed in the past 10 years, cottages have been sold-off to weekenders (our local dairy farm's cowman travels 17 miles from an urban council flat for a 5am start) and cease such nonsense as is going on with the Palace in Wells.
When they've made a genuine start on that then perhaps people would take their hand-wringing seriously.
Yes, there are people in genuine poverty and it is a scandal - but the CofE is in a glasshouse.
Well, yeah, they could but hand wringing and Tory hating is so much easier not to mention kind of fun.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
Here's a head teacher explaining the situation to parents, though not its origins.
Part way down page
There is a web site for parents suggesting that any trips during school time should not be funded by parents, though some schools do ask for voluntary contributions. Funding with fairy money, I suppose.
What can schools charge?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Bravo Solly.
It is all very easy for the bishop and the signatories to the letter to The Daily Mirror to take pot-shots at the government - but just because they say something wearing a pectoral cross doesn't make it true.
EE : there are social workers who are employed by people other than the local Social Services - think MU, Children's Society, Barnados, etc - and they work with individual families long-term, usually as part of a multi-disciplinary team. Unlike an SS employed social worker, my friend makes herself on-call 24 hours a day.
Penny S states that Mrs Thatcher stopped schools adding a few pence to the cost of an outing (or whatever) so that the poorer children could still take part. Do tell, Mrs S, WHERE did Mrs T stop this? Was it when she was Education Secretary in the early 1970s? I think you'll search in vain for anything anywhere that says schools can't add something extra to the cost of a trip - I say this since my own children's state school used to add the cost of the accompanying STAFF to school trips, as well as something for 'social funds', and that was as recently as 2012.
Every special interest group keeps saying their own particular pet scheme can't be cut - elderly, mental health, disabled, special needs, ex-prisoners, etc, etc, etc. We all - bishops included - need to get our heads around the idea that there is no money tree, the resources available are finite so difficult choices have to be made.
If the bishops - and individual churches - want to see how they might help on the ground they could do worse than look at the example of Octavia Hill: she didn't just provide housing but sent one of her ladies along every week to check on the family, to give advice - perhaps to give sharp words about cleanliness or work ethic too - as well as collect the rent.
No, I'm not suggesting there are 'deserving' poor, but I think some of the poor manage a lot better with the little they have than others, and that it would be better to teach skills than just give another handout.
The thing is, it's not about handouts or people wanting special treatment. It's about the most vulnerable not having the bare minimum. When people are pronounced fit for work by the scumbags at ATOS when they are in comas or committing suicide because of the bedroom tax, it seems a bit ridiculous to accuse people of just wanting to blame the government. People are literally dying because the government is failing them. Those who don't speak out are guilty by implication. It strikes me as being profoundly wrong to say that the bishops are as much to blame as the government here. Obviously, the streamlining of the government of the CoE would be a good thing in many ways, but it's not exactly relevant to discussions about people starving because of government policy.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Jade: Agree.
Would we rather the Bishops said nothing?
Because being in a precarious financial situation right now in our country is a very scary place to be.
Even worse if "official" people don't/won't/can't listen.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
quote:
quote:When you've fished enough people out of the river, it's time to take a walk upstream and see who's pushing them in.
Very true providing there is an honest investigation in respect of 'who' or 'what' is pushing them in. I doubt the bishops are really up for this
Please explain the reasons for your doubt
The bishops make pronouncements, usually aimed at the government (particularly the Conservatives) about so-called poverty without investigating the complex and varied reasons for it such as marriage and family breakdown, personal debt, job loss as well as problems with welfare benefits and without any encouragement for individual personal responsibility. Then they move on, satisfied that they have done their Christian duty quite painlessly because, it seems, we are all the State's responsibility now.
May I suggest that what people in trouble often need is an advocate - an articulate friend who will help them deal with authority, writing letters, making phone calls for them, acting as supporter and providing encouragement. The State is a big, impersonal organisation that cannot get everything right but the people that fall into the river are not very good at dealing with authority. Of course it is more time-consuming than writing letters of protest to a newspaper - but I think it's what Jesus meant when he talked about the neighbour principle. I think Jesus would approve of foodbanks too.
I think Jesus would be fucking livid at foodbanks and with good reason. It is an absolute failing and a scandal that people are starving in a first-world country, and foodbanks exist because of that.
It is a total insult for you to sit there and talk about 'so-called poverty' and 'individual personal responsibility' when people are dying from government policy. Literally dying. Since when did marriage, job loss or personal debt mean that the government gets to tax people for having bedrooms for foster children or rooms to store vital medical equipment? Since when did marriage, job loss or personal debt mean that disabled people get their benefits stopped because they are 'fit for work' even if they are terminally ill or in a coma? I have lived in your 'so-called poverty', only it wasn't 'so-called' but real. Very real. I did not have enough food to eat because I could not afford it. I could not take care of myself properly or concentrate in college because I was malnourished and hungry. I could not access all the services I needed because I could not afford transport.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think Jesus would be fucking livid at foodbanks and with good reason. It is an absolute failing and a scandal that people are starving in a first-world country, and foodbanks exist because of that.
Was the feeding of the five thousand the first food bank?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think Jesus would be fucking livid at foodbanks and with good reason. It is an absolute failing and a scandal that people are starving in a first-world country, and foodbanks exist because of that.
Was the feeding of the five thousand the first food bank?
No. Nobody had to be referred by a social worker, doctor etc and limited to three times a year. And, you know, we don't live in Roman-occupied first-century Judea but in a supposedly first-world country where the most vulnerable aren't supposed to starve.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
As I understand it, under the last Labour government state offices (Job Centres, etc.) were forbidden from providing the public information about food banks in case their use embarrassed the government. That ban has now been lifted and this is probably one of the reasons why use of food banks has increased.
If this is correct, then that's surely scandalous? And yet I haven't heard any bishops complain about this. (Or, indeed, anyone on here.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think Jesus would be fucking livid at foodbanks and with good reason. It is an absolute failing and a scandal that people are starving in a first-world country, and foodbanks exist because of that.
Was the feeding of the five thousand the first food bank?
Possibly.
But can you believe Jesus' gave away food free to people who didn't take sufficient personal responsibility to bring their own with them?
Shocking.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Yeah, He was good like that.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
As I understand it, under the last Labour government state offices (Job Centres, etc.) were forbidden from providing the public information about food banks in case their use embarrassed the government. That ban has now been lifted and this is probably one of the reasons why use of food banks has increased.
If this is correct, then that's surely scandalous? And yet I haven't heard any bishops complain about this. (Or, indeed, anyone on here.)
It is certainly scandalous and people do complain about it, although not bishops as far as I know.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
I think Jesus would be fucking livid at foodbanks and with good reason. It is an absolute failing and a scandal that people are starving in a first-world country, and foodbanks exist because of that.
20 years at Citizens Advice, Jade Constable, and I still haven't see any starving people. I see people in trouble and needing help - but starving - No. I don't see as many homeless people as there were in the early nineties either. I think food banks are great, and the people that donate food to them and the volunteers that help in them - and I am damned sure Jesus would too.
So what would you do? Do let us know.
The benefits/tax credits system in this country had got completely out of hand to the point that when I was doing legal aid work, some clients on benefits had too much money and weren't eligible. How ridiculous is that? And there was no incentive to work or increase hours even if you wanted to - which many people did.
Of course turning round the welfare system in this country is causing hardship - but it will eventually work and we are hopefully going to see more people standing on their own feet. In the meantime, shall we all do what we can to offer practical help to those in need?
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
..
I particularly liked the Desmond Tutu quote:
quote:
The Bish:
When you've fished enough people out of the river, it's time to take a walk upstream and see who's pushing them in.
Discuss.
AFZ
Nice quote.
To the OP, yes the church has not choice but to act.
What it is best to do in the UK, I have no clue.
In Canada, it needs to deal with the issues that create poverty and act to alleviate them and address them with those in power, sometimes in a tone of conciliation and sometimes in a stern tone of rebuke.
But then in Canada there is no "the church". We are talking about a collective of individual organizations none of whom have a large presence in every part of this country. A bit different response then what is possible in the UK.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I would spend my energy on getting Tories out of office across the board, which would make more difference to the groups who are being attacked under the deceitful guise of "the deficit" management.
Amen and Amen.
And then what?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Bishops taking a pay cut won't put money in people's pockets.
Funny, there are a lot of people who argue exactly that when it's Bankers and CEOs taking the theoretical pay cut rather than Bishops.
I believe the pay differential between investment bankers and cleaners is somewhat greater than the pay differential between bishops and curates.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
20 years at Citizens Advice, Jade Constable, and I still haven't see any starving people. I see people in trouble and needing help - but starving - No. ...
I doubt if starving people would go to Citizens Advice. There are probably lots of other crisis situations where Citizens Advice wouldn't be much use.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
I doubt if starving people would go to Citizens Advice. There are probably lots of other crisis situations where Citizens Advice wouldn't be much use.
But you're not sure are you because you have never seen any starving people? Where are they all? Actually we are often the first port of call for just about any crisis situation.
All this exaggeration masks the fact that there are many people who are not starving but still in real need. If Christians stopped running round like headless chickens and asked local charities what they can do to help, the world would be a better place.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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