|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: BBC Article on Medical Miracles
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
In fact, it seems impossible to show that healing in response to prayer, takes place. One can of course, guess that this happens, or one can believe it, without evidence, but one cannot demonstrate it. (Anecdotes are not demonstrations).
I was reading about the black death recently, when up to 200 million people died in Europe. Presumably, many people were prayed for at that time, so I suppose for those who believe in healing via prayer, some people in the black death recovered because they were prayed for. But presumably, a lot of people who were prayed for did not recover. As I said earlier, this sounds arbitrary to me, but then who are we to question the infinite inscrutability of God?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Going back to the OP for a minute.
Doing research on the power of prayer in the U.S. must be really difficult. How do you get a control group?
You have to persuade God to play ball with your experiment as well.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As I said earlier, this sounds arbitrary to me, but then who are we to question the infinite inscrutability of God?
We are God's creatures - God's creation. Of course we have a right to question!
If God were so arbitrary as to choose some to heal then I would question her motives. But I don't believe God IS arbitrary at all, God treats us all equally imo.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Damn, must start putting *sarcasm alert*, when I say something sarcastic.
Who are we to question the infinite inscrutability of God? *sarcasm alert*
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Damn, must start putting *sarcasm alert*, when I say something sarcastic.
Who are we to question the infinite inscrutability of God? *sarcasm alert*
![[Smile]](smile.gif) No tone of voice here on the Ship, sadly.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
What also makes it difficult to tell is that whatever you might say sarcastically has likely been said seriously by someone else. The ship is diverse enough for Poe's law to operate.
(Which reflects the conditions for healthy debate also).
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
And in fact, a lot of sarcastic jokes rely on this - that is, using well-known ideas and sentences, but with an edge. But it's true that in print, it's difficult to tell one from t'other.
Well, at least we know that God will be able to distinguish them. (Hee hee hee).
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
A finite mind can, of course, totally and fully understand an infinite mind.
That's what may be the most "miraculous" result of all. The workings of God are beyond mortal understanding, and yet the faithful are always able to recognize His miraculous action. Not only that, but they're always able to correctly attribute such miracles to the action of their preferred deity of choice, rather than some other supernatural actor. It's amazing!
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
A finite mind can, of course, totally and fully understand an infinite mind.
That's what may be the most "miraculous" result of all. The workings of God are beyond mortal understanding, and yet the faithful are always able to recognize His miraculous action. Not only that, but they're always able to correctly attribute such miracles to the action of their preferred deity of choice, rather than some other supernatural actor. It's amazing!
Well done for ignoring the words "totally and fully".
The workings of God are not completely beyond mortal understanding, because, of course, a finite mind can understand something.
But anyway, if you are right, then bye bye atheism and philosophical naturalism. Because if the finite human mind cannot understand God's ways at all, then what makes us think it can understand any other version of reality?
In fact, your view of reality is utterly incoherent. If our minds are just the product of our brains, which are the result of natural selection, which is itself mindless, then mind is an illusion.
If you want to talk about miracles, then the absolutely greatest miracle of the lot, which makes the resurrection of Jesus Christ look like child's play, is mindless nature blindly throwing up something called "objectively valid reason"!!
It's amazing!!! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Although atheism does not imply any view of reality. Atheists are not all materialists or naturalists. For example, for a period, Bertrand Russell was a neutral monist; and I think there are atheists who are dualists.
And of course, science itself does not lead to any particular view of reality.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
So is a cell.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That's what may be the most "miraculous" result of all. The workings of God are beyond mortal understanding, and yet the faithful are always able to recognize His miraculous action. Not only that, but they're always able to correctly attribute such miracles to the action of their preferred deity of choice, rather than some other supernatural actor. It's amazing!
You are being sarcastic I hope. Or I am faithless and hell bound*.
*can we add leather to that?
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
From what I understand that BBC article is rather loaded. One of the studies they quote was theologically flawed with non Christians reading set prayers off cards. No faith was involve so why should it work ?.
There have actually been studies that have shown positive correlations between prayer and healing, but that doesn't necessarily prove a divine link. Its known that if sick people have better care and attention they recover better.
I trust skeptics as much as raving faith healers. Both are defending their paradigm and sometimes are prepared to bend the truth to do so.
I've seen enough to believe that healings do occur, but often less spectacularly than the Biblical accounts. I don't believe God intends to give any general proof to the masses via spectacular healings. Jesus remarked that the Father wanted to keep things hidden from the wise, but not the ordinary folk that came to him. Its not likely to have changed.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
Is there any study comparing results between those being prayed for and those for whom spells are cast?
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Is there any study comparing results between those being prayed for and those for whom spells are cast?
That assumes there's a difference between the two beyond "spells are what I call the other guy's prayers". In what sense are the more flamboyant faith healers (e.g. John Hagee) not casting spells?
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
But human that it is, it cannot be alien to you Croesos.
Faithful analytical reasoning will always be a minority activity, except, perhaps, on this site.
It is in me as I'm overwhelmed by my experience, including six decades of fundamentalism, my feelings, my shame and have little analytical capacity.
As you will know, we are up against experiential reasoning and all that goes with that.
It cannot be argued with.
Only embraced.
Loved.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
From what I understand that BBC article is rather loaded. One of the studies they quote was theologically flawed with non Christians reading set prayers off cards. No faith was involve so why should it work ?.
There have actually been studies that have shown positive correlations between prayer and healing, but that doesn't necessarily prove a divine link. Its known that if sick people have better care and attention they recover better.
I trust skeptics as much as raving faith healers. Both are defending their paradigm and sometimes are prepared to bend the truth to do so.
I've seen enough to believe that healings do occur, but often less spectacularly than the Biblical accounts. I don't believe God intends to give any general proof to the masses via spectacular healings. Jesus remarked that the Father wanted to keep things hidden from the wise, but not the ordinary folk that came to him. Its not likely to have changed.
I think the point is that whether there are miracle healings or not - is unknowable. Yes, you can believe it, but there is no way to demonstrate it. NB., anecdotes are not demonstrations.
Hence there is no way to distinguish two sets of circumstance - one, where there are healings; and second, where there aren't. Both interpretations fit the data.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
It's like YEC. God heals but wipes away all traces as if He hadn't to test our faith. All you've got to do is believe in lots and lost of supernatural stuff for which there is no evidence whatsoever that explains that.
See? All you need is faith.
Where analytical Christians get the faith of God from I don't know.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
Whichever side of the argument you're on, anyone who says "there can be no other reason/explanation" is merely repeating the arrogant (or despairing) assertion that some things are not permitted to be true {Salman Rushdie's phrase, originally, I think).
[ 20. March 2014, 16:27: Message edited by: pimple ]
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Yes, that is just epistemic arrogance. We simply don't know, and probably, we cannot know. Of course, you can have faith over it, which is basically a guess or a wish.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
So it's 50:50 then? Perfectly balanced? Despite there being no forensic, statistically significant, scientific, analytical evidence whatsoever that God intervenes in the laws of physics since shortly after He walked the Earth, He does or doesn't?
I'm going to have to forego the pleasure of a Christian men's dinner for two reason. One is that I'm uncomfortable with that - although the food and company were great - and two is that the narrative of the speaker caused me to have to work even harder than usual to deconstruct to any truth in it for me. Luckily his kindness did show. The next speaker is Dave Bell – Author: ‘Mud in the Eye’ & ‘Life out Loud’ - endorsed by Rick Warren.
I'm going to be completely alone in a room of a hundred people. It's been four hundred before, but I'm not going to pay for that privilege.
I'll go to the home of a friend with MS whose nurse wife believes that may be they should have PAID to go to Benny Hinn when he came to Leicester by the power of the Holy Spirit. And not his private Gulfstream of course.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I think saying that it's 50 50 is being too specific, isn't it? We simply have no method whereby we could judge whether or not there are supernatural interventions.
I suppose plenty of atheists will say, OK, there is no evidence, therefore in effect, it doesn't happen. But then it depends on whether you have a gnostic atheist or an agnostic one - i.e. I know there is no God, as opposed to I don't know that, but I strongly suspect there isn't.
But it reminds me of the old saw about religion decaying - it's not because of hostility, but indifference. I would think that most people are not interested in miracles.
Well, they are interesting if you are thinking about what the supernatural is, and how one might develop a method to detect/describe it.
I suppose if all the cancer patients in London got better at 4pm today, one would have to think about that. But if 10% get better gradually with no treatment, what then?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I would think that most people are not interested in miracles.
Nonsense. If all the cancer patients in London were cured at 4pm today, it would be the greatest sensation in history and the entire world would be talking of nothing else. Indeed, it would take a very much lesser proven* miracle than that to do the job. I reckon the course of human history would be irrevocably and quite fundamentally altered.**
Many atheists claim that they would surrender their disbelief in gods if just one little miracle were unequivocally proven to happen. I include myself in that group, though I believe extremely strongly that no such thing has ever or will ever happen.
Obviously, it is in our essential nature to be interested in the supernatural and miraculous; we are biologically hard wired so to be. This is, of course, the chief reason why religion still has currency in the world.
* scientifically proven, preferably, though most of us would probably be satisfied with a scientifically inexplicable but reliably documented mass curing of cancer, or some such.
** I often toy with this concept for the plot of a novel, though I'm sure it's been done.
--------------------
این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Yorick
Well, obviously the London idea would interest people!
Away from forums like this, I don't find that people are interested in miracles; being anecdotal now, profuse apologies.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
|
Posted
Do you suppose they're disinterested because the idea of miracles seems irrelevant to them, like, perhaps, mythology in general? (I took it that you suppose they'd remain disinterested in miracles if they turned out to be real, which I find extremely doubtful).
--------------------
این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Do you suppose they're disinterested because the idea of miracles seems irrelevant to them, like, perhaps, mythology in general? (I took it that you suppose they'd remain disinterested in miracles if they turned out to be real, which I find extremely doubtful).
No, I didn't mean that! If all cancer patients in London were cured overnight, as you said, it would cause a sensation.
Actually, I do find that people are interested in mythology, since after all Greek and Roman myths are part of Western culture. Well, so are miracles I suppose, but I feel that they have sunk in the general consciousness. I'm not sure actually that religious people think about medical miracles? It seems a fringe thing to me.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
|
Posted
Well, I may only be speaking for myself here, but it strikes me that the concept of the supernatural is an innate part of our human condition. I'd be most surprised to learn that it's not the case that almost ALL people ideate miraculous and supernatural events, pretty much all the time.
Why, only this morning, as I was brushing my teeth, I became aware- even I, a confirmed skeptic- that my thoughts had been wandering idly as though along a sun spangled mountain stream about the glad prospect of a satellite falling with miraculous accuracy upon the head of my ex wife.
--------------------
این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
|
Posted
Have any of these allegedly objective skeptics looked into the cures investigated by the Colsulta Medica, which is the panel of doctors who investigate such matters when people are nominated for canonization by the Catholic Church? These guys are typically top-notch physicians, and what they find ls often pretty impressive.
Granted, the Consulta Medica never "verifies" a miracle. They just state that a particular cure can not be explained medically.
--------------------
"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
|
Posted
'Pretty impressive' stuff happens all the time in biological and medical science. Ordinary is in fact amazing, and a great amount of ordinary amazing stuff is not medically or scientifically explicable.
So?
--------------------
این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Well, I may only be speaking for myself here, but it strikes me that the concept of the supernatural is an innate part of our human condition. I'd be most surprised to learn that it's not the case that almost ALL people ideate miraculous and supernatural events, pretty much all the time.
Why, only this morning, as I was brushing my teeth, I became aware- even I, a confirmed skeptic- that my thoughts had been wandering idly as though along a sun spangled mountain stream about the glad prospect of a satellite falling with miraculous accuracy upon the head of my ex wife.
I agree with you about the supernatural; in part, I suppose it expresses our wishes. Thus, many footballers pray before a game, or salute the heavens when they score. Possibly, also this works to an extent, as a kind of reinforcement technique?
But medical miracles seems to be a rather fringe area to me. Even within Christianity, I think it is treated with some suspicion, especially the more circus-like displays of it.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Yes, I don't think that gravity has been fully explained in scientific terms, has it? The fools, don't they know that God is pulling everything towards the centre of the earth, or any physical body? It seems rather obvious to me. My wife thinks it's invisible pixies doing the pulling, but there you are, we have an ecumenical household.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But medical miracles seems to be a rather fringe area to me. Even within Christianity, I think it is treated with some suspicion, especially the more circus-like displays of it.
I understand healing to be of some particular significance in Christianity; in the gospels, references are made to the healing of the sick by Jesus, and I know Christians who pray regularly and earnestly for God's intervention in cases of illness. I think it's pretty common.
--------------------
این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I understand healing to be of some particular significance in Christianity; in the gospels, references are made to the healing of the sick by Jesus
The healings that Jesus is said to have performed are often referred to as 'signs' - in other words, things which point to something other than themselves.
It's most interesting to note that the subjects were those who were considered ritually impure within the culture of the time. So the point was less about making someone well but as making them acceptable as part of the community.
It was what we would refer to as a prophetic action. Not in the sense of "fortune-telling" but in terms of telling forth, of saying that those who are presently outcasts will be welcome in. i.e. the gentiles.
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
q, it's 100 : 0
We have a method. It's called using your God given faculties INCLUDING analytical reasoning on what the sense ones tell you.
Of course that takes faith.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Praying for healing is different for praying for a miracle though. If I pray for healing, I presume it will come through normal scientific ways or that the person will learn to live with what cannot be cured.
Really? I assumed you'd be supplicating for divine intervention, which would be miraculous by scientific standards if it came about. If it were demonstrably unnatural, that is. And if it weren't, well, where's your God sans penicillin?
--------------------
این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Praying for healing is different for praying for a miracle though. If I pray for healing, I presume it will come through normal scientific ways or that the person will learn to live with what cannot be cured.
Really? I assumed you'd be supplicating for divine intervention, which would be miraculous by scientific standards if it came about. If it were demonstrably unnatural, that is. And if it weren't, well, where's your God sans penicillin?
Your assumption is that your first clause leads to your second clause. I gather some Christians would agree with you. I do not. I fully believe my god uses penicillin, doctors, and such the like.
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Praying for healing is different for praying for a miracle though. If I pray for healing, I presume it will come through normal scientific ways or that the person will learn to live with what cannot be cured.
Now that's very interesting, and puts a different complexion on the matter. It makes it less hucksterish, well, in my eyes. I mean, it's less about wheel-chairs being blithely tossed aside, although no doubt that in itself is quite a thing, but seems too much of a spectacle to me. I saw a mum lovingly tending to her daughter, dying from vCJD, and I thought, that's a miracle, (the tending, not the disease), but of course, it's not literally.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Oh it is q. And God didn't have to intervene for it to happen. That dirt can love so perfectly.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Well, Martin, some people would also say that that was God taking care of God. I don't think that is particularly Christian, is it? However, certum est, quia impossibile, (it is certain because impossible).
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
I like that, God taking care of God. But the truth is more breathtaking. It isn't. We love. We're created - not designed - to love and be loved. Awesome isn't it!
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, Martin, some people would also say that that was God taking care of God. I don't think that is particularly Christian, is it? However, certum est, quia impossibile, (it is certain because impossible).
Why impossible? We can take care of ourselves, in fact we must.
Why shouldn't God?
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, Martin, some people would also say that that was God taking care of God. I don't think that is particularly Christian, is it? However, certum est, quia impossibile, (it is certain because impossible).
Why impossible? We can take care of ourselves, in fact we must.
Why shouldn't God?
Well, the impossible bit wasn't meant to refer to God taking care of me, but the idea that if he does, he is taking care of himself. OK, maybe that is a kosher idea in Christianity, I don't know. It seems unlikely, since if everything is God, there is no need for salvation, is there?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
There's no if q.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
|
Posted
quote:
In fact, your view of reality is utterly incoherent. If our minds are just the product of our brains, which are the result of natural selection, which is itself mindless, then mind is an illusion.
Incoherent only if:
a)the fallacy of composition doesn't apply
b) the view of reality in question depends on the notion that the mind is something distinct from the body.
If it's naturalism you are firing at, you need better ammunition.
--------------------
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
There's no if q.
That's a bit cryptic, even for you. Do you mean the if in 'if everything is God'?
Well, the idea that everything is God is quite attractive to me, but I would think that from the point of view of Christian theology, it would be a car-crash, wouldn't it? Then, there is nowhere to get to, since we are here already.
You do find that idea in Eastern religions, I am That, and so on. Are you a secret advaita adherent?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
I have my cake and it eat, Schroedinger style.
God thinks us autonomous.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the impossible bit wasn't meant to refer to God taking care of me, but the idea that if he does, he is taking care of himself. OK, maybe that is a kosher idea in Christianity, I don't know. It seems unlikely, since if everything is God, there is no need for salvation, is there?
Yes, but I am saying there is nothing wrong with God taking care of himself. Whether it's God-in-us or God-out-there.
The need for salvation is to be saved from our baser animal natures imo, not anything 'out there' which is out to get us. (But that's another thread, I'm sure).
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Praying for healing is different for praying for a miracle though. If I pray for healing, I presume it will come through normal scientific ways or that the person will learn to live with what cannot be cured.
Now that's very interesting, and puts a different complexion on the matter. It makes it less hucksterish, well, in my eyes. I mean, it's less about wheel-chairs being blithely tossed aside, although no doubt that in itself is quite a thing, but seems too much of a spectacle to me. I saw a mum lovingly tending to her daughter, dying from vCJD, and I thought, that's a miracle, (the tending, not the disease), but of course, it's not literally.
This isn't an unusual viewpoint on praying for the sick in my experience. I attended a session led by a hospice chaplain discussing what healing might mean to people from a range of different beliefs. For the terminally ill, could it be that healing could be a good death? The time to come to terms with dying and say goodbye.
I would say that prayer is aligning my will with God's and finding out what I should do as God's hands and feet on Earth, per Teresa of Avila:
quote:
Christ has no body but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
However, I'm so out of step with a lot of my local church that has too many people praying for a miracle rather than healing and/or other fundamentalist beliefs that I no longer go.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Curiosity killed ... That's WHY you've got to go.
And that's why I'm a total hypocrite. I stopped trekking 5 miles into the city to my charismatic evangelical megachurch after over two years because there was no reason to keep going. When I lived a 10 minute walk away there just about was (even though I was kept out of the local home group and had to drive 10-15 miles round trip to others that kept changing).
In five years we'd made no friends. 0 We worked at it, we really did, but it killed our spirits. We tried to make the endless words of knowledge liturgical.
So, with no expectations we resigned ourselves to going to the NON-charismatic, nicely broad, vaguely evangelical village church.
Bliss. More friends and joined up community than we know what to do with.
I work 2 minutes walk away so still go Friday nights to mingle with the destitute. And last night I prayed out loud with more confidence than ever before, with one anxious guy who asked, with his mental age of 10 and with the whole group, utterly refusing to beg for miracles that we all KNOW are never going to happen, whilst acknowledging needs and concerns and our helplessness, being grateful for God's provision in English civilization, the NHS, medication, lawyers. Asking for, if anything, more openness, more listening, more understanding. More of the fruits of the Spirit in effect. Must remember that explicitly next time. Felt good about it for once. Acknowledging a fundamentalist depressive's needs without using his language, just moving on, above, choosing a different narrative, finding a way to encourage him. He liked it. Poor guy. He can't see the delusion even though it's staring him in the face. He told me how the night before he'd been prayed for healing and the depression lifted. And came back straightaway. He unspokenly regarded that as his failing. He must ... he should ... if only ... I just kept his gaze, tried not to nod. He can text. I don't do phone calls. I told him to contact me when he's in town and we'll do lunch. He nodded. He won't. No headspace. I told the '10' year old to ask anyone at the megachurch to pray for him, to listen to him and never let me be too busy on a Friday night. Hmmmm. I'll have to give him my number.
A woman asking me to read all her legal correspondence, I handed it straight back and told her she needed a solicitor. She asked for prayers. We prayed she'd get a solicitor, find the headspace to do that. I'll ask her next week if that miracle occurred ...
As for my new friends across the road, yeah fundies all, they accept me to say the least. To be included one must be inclusive even, especially of the serenely, blithely alienating.
I hope questions are asked in the men's group because in reply to all in a group email invitation to a "men's dinner" with fundie 'miraculously healed' speaker, mentioned upthread (now I COULD be wrong ... he could be a postmodern neo-orthodox ...), asking for a response indicating interest "or otherwise", I said "Otherwise, thanks Jim".
Easy for me to say I know. I'm so extroverted I can get away with it. I just it's so sad Curiosity.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
