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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Failed Welsh Outpouring At Cwmbran
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not postulating that we seek to replace Pentecostalism or revivalism with MOTR alternatives as such - simply that there has to be somewhere for these people to go when the bottom falls out of the whole thing.
Many casualties of revivalism end up nowhere. It's burn-out.
My brother-in-law grew up in a large Pentecostal family. Now, he's the only one of his siblings - there were six of them in all and one is sadly no longer with us - who is still involved in church in any meaningful way.
I'm not saying that MOTR religion would be any more effective in Cwmbran and the South Wales Valleys than revivalism is. But from what we've heard so far I'm not sure that revivalism is being as effective down there as its supporters would like to think.
We've already heard that it hasn't made any noticeable impression on the council estates that sprawl up the Eastern Valley.
The existing traditional churches aren't doing particularly well down there either.
If I knew what the answer was, I would give it. I'm simply observing that classic revivalism isn't having a great deal of impact either.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
IMO, if you have nothing better to offer people in exchange for what they have, there's not much point in going on and on about how unwise and unreasonable they're being.
Firstly, it wasn't a joke. It was a serious point.
Secondly, a lot of my critique comes from having grown up in a community like this and seen the resulting spiritual and emotional casualties emerge over long periods of time. Which is why it is difficult the laissez faire attitude that at least some need - be it psychological or whatever - is being met.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I don't deny the points made above, but sadly, leaving the church is frequently what happens these days, whether it's due to burn-out, or boredom, or whatever. (And be aware that Methodists can crash out too, since able-bodied volunteers are often in very short supply there and hence overworked.)
We seem to have a yearning for revivalistic religion to be better than it is, to compensate for the serious deficiencies elsewhere in Western Christianity but not produce any challenges of its own. Maybe that's too much to ask.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure 'we' have a yearning for revivalistic religion to be better than it is, it's more a case that the revivalists put it forward as the ultimate panacea to all ills - hence the resulting casualties when disillusionment sets in.
I well appreciate that the CofE, Methodists and URC etc have lost plenty of people over the last few decades through boredom, apathy and so on ... but roller-coaster religion can also tip people out too.
It can give a semblance of something happening that masks the fact that very little is actually going on at all.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
"Highs" are a trap that I fell into as well. It is a natural consequence of the fact that our cultures tell us that life is about being cool, better and exciting, it's about working-hard and achieving things. It's about not just being a good singer, but about being the Top Talent. A book I've reading the moment by Arnold Retzer points out that Bowie's maxim that "we can be heroes, just for one day" heightens expectations, when in fact that we have capitalistic societies means that not everyone can be that special person. These capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom, and promises occasional highs as pay-back for the shite we have to swallow.
Others escape their boredom (for short periods of time) through alcohol, drugs or consumerism. Like with prayer, these are not bad things in themselves, but when they become the focus...
I myself have witnessed the charistmatic/evangelical abuse of vulnerable people, people promising those highs, promises often made out of desires to help.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
...fact that we have capitalistic societies means that not everyone can be that special person. These capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom...
Are there any societies where everyone can be that special person, and which value weakness and boredome?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
...fact that we have capitalistic societies means that not everyone can be that special person. These capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom...
Are there any societies where everyone can be that special person, and which value weakness and boredome?
Moo
Possibly, in some ways and at some times, the Church?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure 'we' have a yearning for revivalistic religion to be better than it is, it's more a case that the revivalists put it forward as the ultimate panacea to all ills - hence the resulting casualties when disillusionment sets in.
I well appreciate that the CofE, Methodists and URC etc have lost plenty of people over the last few decades through boredom, apathy and so on ... but roller-coaster religion can also tip people out too.
It can give a semblance of something happening that masks the fact that very little is actually going on at all.
If your old congregation have declined from 300 to 70 people they can't reasonably be claiming to have the panacea for all ills! But I imagine they might have felt that way in the early days.
I don't know about Wales, but according to Peter Brierley the number of indigenous, self-proclaimed charismatic evangelical churches in England has decreased. If this is because these churches want to disassociate themselves from the Toronto Blessing, as he claims, then triumphalism must be fading.
Churches of all kinds have experienced declining numbers, as you say. But the decline is less in (various types of) evangelical churches. Of those churches that are growing, the great majority will be some sort of evangelical. The question is whether the most effervescent of these churches could lose the 'roller-coaster' part of their heritage without reducing any small growth or speeding up their rate of decline.
Maybe a stronger religious monopoly would reduce the problem of 'vulnerable people' being drawn into unsuitable independent churches, but I suggest that it wouldn't help everyone else.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Mmm ... this isn't easy, especially when you think of the numbers of "semi-itinerant" Christians who only settle in a church for a short time before moving on to the next place where they think that God is acting (or should that be "moving"?)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Believe you me, SvitlanaV2 we certainly did believe that in the early days - and then some!
Some people were still banging on about reaching the city for Christ and having to lay on extra meetings to accommodate the crowds even after several grievous and painful splits and then a more gradual decline in numbers.
I think the reasons for the decrease in the number of indigenous charismatic churches isn't entirely down to reactions against the Toronto Blessing.
I think there was an element of that. Once you'd fallen over, rolled on the ground, laughed uncontrollably or even barked like a dog - there wasn't really anywhere else you could take it. You still had to get up in the morning and go to work, you still had to go to the toilet, you still had to wash your socks.
The triumphalism has faded, but it's not entirely gone away. Since Toronto we've had the Bethel thing and that's still big in some quarters.
All charismatic activity becomes routinised over time. I suspect that with increased global communications and the pace of life these days, the period between the peaks and the troughs has telescoped. What would take a good while to fizzle out in the old days fizzles out a lot more quickly now.
Sociologists say that a 'church' or denomination (in the sociological sense) tends to have a shelf-life of several hundred years. The Methodists have been around for 270 years or so. They may see out their 300th or even 350th anniversary.
Some of the newer groups won't last anywhere near as long.
I don't know why you post as if I am calling for a greater religious monopoly simply because I attend an Anglican church.
I'm not suggesting that a religious monopoly of any kind would be any better or any healthier. There are problems associated with all these things and all ways round.
All churches have problems. The historic Churches simply have a different set of problems to the Pentecostal churches and the new churches and vice-versa.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Are you disagreeing that capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom?
I don't think they do so more than any other kind of economic system.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
A point that would be relevant if we were looking at Toronto blessing-style events in such societies. In such an eventuality, where there was, for example, no missionising from capitalistic countries, it would be interesting to see why that would be the case.
Being speculatory, perhaps there's some Buddhist monastery somewhere in a remote mountain where some get addicted to such highs. There it would be prudent to look at the reasons for that, and whether it was also a form of escapism.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't know why you post as if I am calling for a greater religious monopoly simply because I attend an Anglican church.
I'm not suggesting that a religious monopoly of any kind would be any better or any healthier. There are problems associated with all these things and all ways round.
All churches have problems. The historic Churches simply have a different set of problems to the Pentecostal churches and the new churches and vice-versa.
I'm just trying to uncover the tiniest smidgen of a solution in the problems that you rehearse so abundantly! But you clearly don't find talk of solutions helpful.
It occurs to me that the church-sect sociological theories must lead to certain degree of fatalism. Revivalism is inevitable, as are liberalism and church decline, rigidity as well as tolerance, etc. In which case, what's the point of being censorious about any of it? Disappointed holy-rollers, like the poor, will always be with us. There's nothing new under the sun, and after we've endured a few short decades of life it'll be someone else's problem anyway....
BTW, do any of your revivalist friends ever consider Christ's return? Does the Church need to be revived before he comes back, or isn't that a priority? Some Christians fully expect things to get worse rather than better as a prelude to the Second Coming. Perhaps revivalists tend not to be among their number.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
In the circles I used to run with, personal renewal would lead to a restored Church, which would bring in a revival. According to some "prophets" and "apostles", a worldwide revival was an essential precursor of the Second Coming. This, of course, raised the stakes immeasurably. "We're building a restored church, full of renewed believers, so that revival can come and Jesus can return. So if YOU aren't personally renewed and "moving in the Spirit", you're blocking the return of Jesus." Guilt trips a plenty... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Absolutely, Oscar the Grouch, that was pretty much the narrative we were running with so it's no surprise it ended in disillusionment.
@SvitlanaV2. There is the tiniest smidgeon of hope and a 'solution' - if that's the right term - in all of this. Read Ronald Knox's book 'Enthusiasm'. It's dated now but he recounts the various 'enthusiastic' and revivalist movements within both Protestantism (Quakers, Methodists, Irvingites etc) and Catholicism (Jansenists).
He ends with a condundrum. These things are eccentric and sometimes even harmful. But we need 'enthusiasm'.
Meanwhile, I fight shy of hard-cut solutions because I lived for so long in an environment where we thought we had it all taped.
Real life is a lot more messy than that.
I'll admit that I'll sometimes sound censorious about these things but these are internet boards - we can sound off on them and this is the 'Magazine of Christian Unrest' not the 'Magazine of Celebrating Revivalism.'
In real life, I get on pretty well with revivalists. I've just finished proof-reading a PhD thesis by a friend who is in a leadership/teaching position in a restorationist church.
I like your sunnyside-up, let's find some good in all of this approach. It's not that I don't find talk of solutions helpful, it's just that I don't always find your stabs at offering solutions helpful - particularly when I've aleady tried them ...
Yes, the poor will always be with us, but we often forget the rest of that verse as it appears in Mark 14:7 '... and you can help them anytime you want.'
Disillusioned revivalists will always be with us. We can help them too.
Sure, it doesn't always help to rain all over their parade, but it can help to offer a sense of perspective. And that's all I'm trying to do.
Meanwhile, and I don't mean this to sound dismissive, but the very fact that you were asking questions about eschatology and revivalism demonstrates that you don't really have that much experience of it. The early Pentecostals believed in the imminent return of Christ and many saw the 'return' of spiritual gifts like healing, tongues and prophecy as a sign of that.
Revivalism and eschatology tend to be closely linked, although the emphasis does vary according to the underlining theology of whichever group it happens to be.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
A point that would be relevant if we were looking at Toronto blessing-style events in such societies. In such an eventuality, where there was, for example, no missionising from capitalistic countries, it would be interesting to see why that would be the case.
Being speculatory, perhaps there's some Buddhist monastery somewhere in a remote mountain where some get addicted to such highs. There it would be prudent to look at the reasons for that, and whether it was also a form of escapism.
Not in remote places really; I have seen this in Hertfordshire and London! In some branches of Buddhism, there is great wariness of such highs, and quite fierce teachings to bring them down. It is sometimes called 'Satan's cave', in other words, a kind of enjoyable place to hide away. There is also the 'stink of holiness', to which many newcomers are susceptible.
Many stories about it of course - for example, the monk who got so enlightened, that the birds come to sing to him in his hut (some lovely illustrations of this). His teacher remonstrates with him fiercely, and advises several more years meditation, after which the birds have gone. Now what?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'll admit that I'll sometimes sound censorious about these things but these are internet boards - we can sound off on them and this is the 'Magazine of Christian Unrest' not the 'Magazine of Celebrating Revivalism.'
Very true. But it could be the 'Magazine Celebrating Quiet, Respectable Churches that Won't Let You Get Carried Away'! I'd love to hear that they have a few - any - answers!
quote:
Yes, the poor will always be with us, but we often forget the rest of that verse as it appears in Mark 14:7 '... and you can help them anytime you want.'
Disillusioned revivalists will always be with us. We can help them too.
Yes - send them to the Methodists or the liberal catholic CofE. The more, the merrier! But I admit, after posting my reference to the poor I realised that it would probably be criticised.
quote:
Meanwhile, and I don't mean this to sound dismissive, but the very fact that you were asking questions about eschatology and revivalism demonstrates that you don't really have that much experience of it. The early Pentecostals believed in the imminent return of Christ and many saw the 'return' of spiritual gifts like healing, tongues and prophecy as a sign of that.
Guilty as charged. Interestingly, I've never heard any of my Pentecostal relatives refer to End Times, or anything of that sort. It's the Seventh Day Adventist ones who seem a bit more interested. My elderly Methodist friend talks a lot about Judgment Day.
quote:
In real life, I get on pretty well with revivalists. I've just finished proof-reading a PhD thesis by a friend who is in a leadership/teaching position in a restorationist church.
He's not too disillusioned, I hope? He's lucky to have you, though - I had to make do without that assistance.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think we have to be careful not to be overly critical of those who rely on some kind of 'rush' or release from some form of worship/church activity - but at the same time we have to be realistic and acknowledge that this is what it is ...
For instance, I remember seeing a documentary series about black-led churches which traced the history from the slave plantations in Jamaica and the USA through to the rise of African indigenous churches in London.
It suggested that if you were working in the sugar plantations or as a maid in one of the estate houses being bossed around all day then the exuberance of the Sunday morning service was inevitably going to provide a welcome release.
The same would be true, I suggest, if you were a coal miner in the South Wales Valleys.
All that said, contemporary middle-class Christians zoning out on endorphins doesn't strike me as a particularly good use of their time.
IME it's the white middle-class charismatic congregations that get silly and caught up in nonsense. Like you said, it's not a particularly good use of their time, particularly for people who have the time/resources/energy to do so much more.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
IME it's the white middle-class charismatic congregations that get silly and caught up in nonsense. Like you said, it's not a particularly good use of their time, particularly for people who have the time/resources/energy to do so much more.
I have sufficient connections with various ethnic/majority-minority churches of a charismatic and pentecostal churches to say that silliness and getting caught up with nonsense isn't a sole preserve of the white middle class - and they aren't even unusually susceptible to it.
So IME what you say doesn't ring true on a macro level.
[ 12. July 2014, 19:28: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]IME it's the white middle-class charismatic congregations that get silly and caught up in nonsense. Like you said, it's not a particularly good use of their time, particularly for people who have the time/resources/energy to do so much more.
It's not helpful to generalise in that way - because it simply isn't true.
It does happen in white congregations but its far from unknown in BME ones too. KICC in London is pretty wacky and there are a lot of BME churches who are into the whole deliverance thing around a package of prosperity theology. KICC ISTM runs very close to that line.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The impoverished get caught up with circuses and that includes the white middle class in a 'subtle', white middle class way. My former congo is typical of that. Buying in to God bringing Angolan Muslims back from the dead, changing people's leg lengths on the streets of Leicester, proclaiming everything eversomuch in 24/7 prayer marathons. Singing a lot. I call that impoverished. Poor. Very poor. When the actual needs of the real poor barely have a little finger lifted to alleviate their burdens.
We are the new Sodomites.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The impoverished get caught up with circuses and that includes the white middle class in a 'subtle', white middle class way. My former congo is typical of that. Buying in to God bringing Angolan Muslims back from the dead, changing people's leg lengths on the streets of Leicester, proclaiming everything eversomuch in 24/7 prayer marathons. Singing a lot. I call that impoverished. Poor. Very poor. When the actual needs of the real poor barely have a little finger lifted to alleviate their burdens.
We are the new Sodomites.
I would suggest that some research is done. The church where I used to attend before moving to Horsham, has seen the type of miracles you mock. It is running a Debt Centre, that is greatly needed and looking at setting up a food bank.
The church needs always to look at the physical needs of people, as you rightly say, but it also needs to bring people into the presence of god, to tender to their spiritual needs.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I mock no miracles that occur. There are none. Especially the miracle of us being Christ. The kingdom. If nonsense miracles occurred, like leg length actually miraculously changing when all around are dying, grieving, lonely, poor, lost, unfriended, unloved, unvisited, untended expect in ever such spiritual matters, that would be MUCH worse. But God does not mock the afflicted. Debt advice is a common toe in the water. And looking to do something is too. In another two thousand years maybe.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
That's getting pretty judgemental, Martin! You seem to be implying that people who believe in the miraculous (healing and stuff) are bound to be doing less of the social, physical meeting of people's needs than those who don't believe in miraculous healing etc. Do you have some evidence for this implied claim, or have I misinterpreted you?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
To be fair to Victory Church, they are involved in various ministries to people with drug-dependency and alcohol-related problems.
I seem to remember AberVicar, who ministers in the next Valley over, commending them for this and he's by no means a raving charismatic. If I remember rightly he cited some nuns in Bristol regularly referring people to their programme.
That said, I've also heard it's quite a controversial programme.
Whatever the case, I do think it's going too far to suggest that outfits which are into the signs-and-wonders and revivalist stuff necessarily neglect the social and practical aspects.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No Kevin. We're all equally bad.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Gamaliel, Kevin: it's opportunity cost, while we're engaged in vain nonsense we're not doing good.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Gamaliel, Kevin: it's opportunity cost, while we're engaged in vain nonsense we're not doing good.
Well, that's true. Arguing on a messageboard is not the most productive activity...
Oh, you meant that praying for people to be healed or set free from oppression by the demonic is vain nonsense! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It is when it's not accompanied by other, less spectacular and less overtly 'spiritual' means of engagement.
How many people in the UK have been healed through the prayers of well-meaning Christians over the last 30 or 40 years?
How many people have been healed by doctors, the NHS etc over the same period?
Do the math as the Americans would say.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hoist with me own petard! Well done Kevin. As I said, we're ALL useless.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How many people in the UK have been healed through the prayers of well-meaning Christians over the last 30 or 40 years?
How many people have been healed by doctors, the NHS etc over the same period?
How many people who advocate the former also denigrate the latter? Very few, I think - you do the math.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ha ha. They may not denigrate the latter, but they certainly can't demonstrate anywhere near the same level of results.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha. They may not denigrate the latter, but they certainly can't demonstrate anywhere near the same level of results.
Indeed so. As you like to say, it's 'both... and' rather than 'either... or'.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No, it's God's provision. And He provides millions of times as much through the NHS. Although zero times a million is still zero. There is comfort and placebo in both admittedly, but the NHS actually facilitates miracles of healing every minute of the day, including psychological. Saying zero and a million or ten are comparable in any way is ... interesting to the point of pathological. And yes I've been healed by God in ways the NHS can't touch.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, South Coast Kevin, I think it is both/and rather than either/or ... but these days I'd think twice before going near any attempts to pray for healing - other than fairly general prayers - or overt attempts to deal with the apparently 'demonic'.
I'm sorry, but there is it is.
Been there, done that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Gamaliel. How much of both? How both? In Alzheimer's, diabetes, cancer, paranoid schizophrenia, alcoholism, name it?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Or is it, like freewill and determinism in your book, 100% both
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Love wins
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Wot, we extrapolate from Jesus full humanity and full divinity to full determinism and full freewill for ourselves and that God miraculously intervenes miraculously all the time while waiting for us to be His arms and voice and ears and actually live as if we were the Kingdom?!
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Love wins
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I was thinking in more general terms.
I think a kind of Chalcedonian both/and model can help us negotiate all manner of issues as well as Christology.
On the freewill/determinism thing and whether we can legitimately expect the miraculous and so on ... on the first I don't get het up about it. On the second, I can't see why not in principle ... but in practice I think the rhetoric overtakes the reality.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
You should be in politics. But I like you.
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Love wins
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
You should be in politics. But I like you.
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Love wins
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha. They may not denigrate the latter, but they certainly can't demonstrate anywhere near the same level of results.
Indeed so. As you like to say, it's 'both... and' rather than 'either... or'.
Look, if people were being healed by prayer there would be evidence of it and there is none. If the so-called 'healers' could really heal, we'd know about it—and they'd be in hospitals and battlefields. If people had the gift of prophecy they would prophecy and those specific things would come to pass with every prophecy—it doesn't happen. For people with that 'gift' who regularly get it wrong, it's no big deal to their supporters. If someone had the gift of tongues, either to speak 'an angelic language' it would be a language, real or 'angelic'. It doesn't happen. The lies simply must be retold—for them, there is no alternative. It's also curious that the very recent emergence (extremely recent in terms of church history) of these practices as cultural phenomenon doesn't seem to raise an eyebrow with them either.
So much of Christian culture could be more accurately described as a 'religious market'. The language are marketing devices are very similar: emphasis on 'choice' (which in both cases is heavily influenced by controlling and manipulative psychological factors) and then the poor sods are offered what one scholar calls 'salvation goods'. Rational choice plays a very small roll in the Christian marketplace. Just as in the capitalist marketplace, the placation of the group is vital to the success of the system. Those on the inside would never dare inspect the facade because the circular system of beliefs insists that to do so reveals a lack of faith. Lack of faith is an obstacle to salvation—presto!
My namesake made a wonderful allegory of this situation back in 1631:
quote:
Looking at the building of the castle [of wisdom] itself, I saw its gleaming white walls, which they told me were of alabaster. But examining them more carefully and touching them with my hands, I saw that they were made of nothing but paper, the cracks revealing the occasional patch of tow. From this I judged that the walls were partly hollow and filled with stuffing. I was amazed at this deception and laughed aloud.
The Cwmbran story is just one of tens of thousand in the evangelical marketplace. No matter how many diet pills are proven to be frauds, there are always more desperate customers ready to believe the next batch of impossible promises. If you're sick of it—stop participating in it. Stop allowing your church and clergy from conning the congregation.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Komensky
That's an interesting analogy with capitalism, which I must think about more. Capitalism is not solely fraudulent, of course, as then people would stop buying, but it has an element of fraud in it, so as to maximize profits, I suppose. See for example, built in obsolescence.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Capitalism is not solely fraudulent, of course, as then people would stop buying, but it has an element of fraud in it, so as to maximize profits, I suppose. See for example, built in obsolescence.
I think fraud is a loaded term and may impede the discussion a little.
Fraud aside, there is a clear interest for a perception of obsolescence to be pushed by the makers and marketeers of new products.
When evangelicalism went down the revivalist route it necessarily tapped into the same dynamic.
Book deals and conferences - especially when you have a somewhat captive audience in terms of your own movement - can make quite a lot of money for certain individuals.
The rise of the mega church, with the accompanied rise of the mega church pastor who doesn't actually do any pastoring (there are staff to do visitations, and much of the pastoral work is outsourced onto home groups) excaberates this issue. You basically end up with the heads of these churches not having a whole lot to do within their own churches - so obviously they are going to concentrate on their wider 'ministry'. Not all the people in this position necessarily have something to day beyond recycled business speak with a few motivational verses to make things scriptural.
At the more local end of things the values of entertainment and spirituality make uneasy bedfellows as brilliantly parodied by a number of authors/film makers. [I'd recommend PG Wodehouse's "The Aunt and the Sluggard" and the films "Leap of Faith" and "The Apostle"]
[ 15. July 2014, 10:21: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Thanks for the recommendations. I'll return the favour with an interesting article (though much less entertaining than Wodehouse) Jörg Stolz, 'Salvation Goods and Religious Markets: Integrating Rational Choice and Weberian Perspectives' Social Compass, 2006.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Funny thing is G, you seem to be saying no to what I said when you mean yes. But that's just my rampant ego blinding and stupefying me further I'm sure. You ARE extrapolating from the Chalcedonian paradox to make other both/and paradoxes from either/or. The key one being freewill and determinism which you embrace elsewhere and the relevant other here being the material non-intervention of God and the miraculous. Or are you divining between bone and marrow and I'm too thick to see it as usual?
K is as ever all too beguilingly on the money, which I find troubling as I DO wish to be inclusive (oh wretched man that I am) of those who have to believe, like the majority of Christians, truths for them that can never be mine.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Gamaliel is 'work in progress', Martin. Looking for consistency isn't where it's at.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Cuh. Fuh. Huh. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) indeed
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Love wins
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