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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Failed Welsh Outpouring At Cwmbran
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FROSTIE
Apprentice
# 18148
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Posted
Have any of you guys got any more news on thew failed "Welsh Outpouring"?
This featured the apostates Richard Taylor and Andrew Parsons with their sham "miracles" and failed healings!
It started in the Spring of 2013 but was dead in the water by the end of the year?
However it led many people astray, as it was inspired by "the god of this world"....and not Yeshua!
[ 20. September 2014, 10:45: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 2 | From: cwmbran | Registered: Jul 2014
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Welcome FROSTIE.
You might want to read the various Board descriptions with a view to finding out which topics are best suited to which Boards. In Heaven, we largely do Chat and Frivol.
I will consult with my fellow Hosts.
Firenze
Heaven Host
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Well, that didn't take long.
Topics for serious discussion go to Purgatory. Fasten your seatbelt.
Firenze
HH
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye FROSTIE, we thrashed this to death as soon as it surfaced. Nobody was deceived who wasn't already. This confusion is as old as Christianity. Its author a tad older.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Welcome Frostie! Do take a moment to read our 10 Commandments and board posting guidelines, and free to say hello on the "Welcome Aboard" thread in All Saints.
Now that this thread's in Purgatory, and to refresh everyone's memory, here is our discussion of this when it first became news.
Eutychus
Purgatory Host
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Calling these fellas 'apostates' is a bit strong, Frostie. What grounds do you have for doing so?
I grew up in Cwmbran and know some of the churches that were involved around the edges of this. However, the one where the 'revival' was supposed to be emanating from wasn't around when I lived there.
My own 'take' on it is that it is yet another example of fairly short-lived religious excitement such as tends to happen from time to time within Pentecostalism and on the charismatic scene more generally ... we've had similar things in recent years in Telford and in Dudley and they seemed to follow a similar pattern.
If you can do so without resorting to intemperate language and a rather reductionist or black-and-white approach, I'd be interested to hear what the upshot of the whole thing has been.
I wasn't at all tempted to dash back home to visit the meetings and see what was happening and I've visited the area several times since these things started without even hearing anything about it from people in the area.
Would I be right in thinking that the majority of the crowds allegedly flocking to the meetings were from outside the area? People visiting in search of revival or some kind of spiritual high?
What, if anything, has been the impact on the housing estates in Thornhill, Fairwater and Coedeva? Or in the older parts of the town such as Pontnewydd or Old Cwmbran?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Laying my cards on the table, I tend to think that a lot of revivalist excitement is all too human. No need to cite the demonic or even the otherworldly.
No need to see it as the work of the 'god of this world' and so on ... it's simply excitable human behaviour in an excitable religious context.
I think people tend to see what they want to see and in the heightened atmosphere of a revivalist context that's what happens.
But I admit, I'm looking at this from some distance and not up close. But I've seen similar things and heard similar rhetoric before, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As so often, I agree with Gamaliel.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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FROSTIE
Apprentice
# 18148
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Posted
Thanks for your comments guys, and good to see the post has been put into the correct place.
Cwmbran has not changed much and all those council estates of Thornhill, Fairwater, Coed eva etc all remain the same and were not touched in the slightest by the failed "Welsh Outpouring", as indeed the whole town itself was not.
Many people were "bussed" in from afar for their events which started with seven nights per week. And the promise from the leaders Richard Taylor and Andrew Parsons was that "if we turn up, God will turn up too"!
Strange then that it dwindled from 7 to 6 to 5 to 3, and now to just one poorly attended weekly evening meeting which is hardly "an outpouring" despite Victory Church still claiming it to be!
The sham of "this revival" started with the false "healing" of local man Paul Haynes who was delivered from his wheelchair, when he never needed it in the first place!
There were also false "healing handkerchiefs" given out, and at least one person died despite receiving promises of healing from the small piece of worthless cloth!
And according to Taylor and Parsons, who received their "vision from the Lord" this outpouring was going to sweep all over Cwmbran, then Wales, then the UK and was also set to become the largest revival the world had ever seen!
False Prophets I believe!
Posts: 2 | From: cwmbran | Registered: Jul 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
False prophecy is innate to being human. Viral. As is reaction to it. Including mine. Any expectation we have that if we pray for the cat or Iraq or that those providing for the vulnerable will realise that that is as spiritual as it gets and that there's nothing more is false. That anyone will understand anything. False prophecy, a false prospectus, false hope.
That we must work with, just like the rest of our aspirational liturgy.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The people who believe in these sorts of things will believe regardless of facts or evidence. The event-based based mentality, the highly-manipulative culture and emotionally-charged environments that foster this kind of thing will only produce more of the same. The whole 'outpouring' and 'revival' mentality is a destructive one, on the whole and like so much of the religious culture of the charismatic/evangelical scene, it sets people up either to believe in lies or to fall—in charismatic culture these events must never be examined. As a culture it cares very little for the casualties of truth and honesty, nor does it care much for the human costs—the primary goal is to promote itself. I can remember at HTB when one of the big Alpha testimonials ('I was a drug addict, now I'm a Christian and life is great') was discovered to have made up most of his story the big effort was to keep it a secret. He was removed from the Alpha circuit, but no apology was ever offered for having deceived so many. Just as with the Cwmbran 'outpouring'—it must never be examined, no matter how fraudulent it was or how devastating the consequences of the con might be. The culture of lies most only be encouraged because in their eyes, the ends justify the means.
Can you tell that I'm still bitter?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks Frostie, that pretty much accords with what I was expecting to hear and, indeed, expecting to happen.
A friend of mine, though, has seen footage of the alleged miracle that sparked off the hoo-ha and he said it 'looked convincing'.
Why was the bloke who was supposed to have been healed sitting in a wheelchair in the first place? Did he need it occasionally?
On the earlier thread, Eutychus in particular - who is a bit of a whizz at ferreting out spurious claims and so on (and to whom I take off my hat) drew attention to the lack of documentary or other evidence.
The leaders at Victory Church apparently seemed reluctant to allow interviews with the recipient of the putative healing and claimed that this was due to a desire to protect his privacy etc etc.
I've certainly been in meetings where miracles are said to have taken place and have even seen one or two apparent ones take place on the street following prayer by earnest charismatics ... only for it to become quickly apparent that no such healing had actually happened.
In most instances, I would suggest that this is the result of heightened expectations and a degree of naivety rather than deliberate attempts to deceive.
I suspect in this instance that having started the leaders simply went with thought they thought they had - adrenalin will take you a fair way round the track before you start to flag and tire.
So then the temptation comes in to maintain momentum by giving oneself an extra boost - hence the over-blown rhetoric about revival extending across Wales and across the globe ...
We've heard all this sort of thing before.
I've been caught up in revivalism myself, so I know how easy it is to switch-off the critical faculties and suspend disbelief ... particularly when there apparent 'results' in evidence to keep the ball rolling for a while.
I always felt that the Cwmbran thing would fizzle out in time.
I don't know what we'd need to make an impression on the hardened housing estates ... decorous worship with the Book of Common Prayer isn't likely to make that much impression so I can understand why people would assume that revivalism might do the trick.
But it rarely does.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Komensky - EMBRACE it. Feed that wolf. THIS is, this IS, what we are called to work with. We are to expose the deceit and embrace it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, Komensky, these things can leave bitterness in their wake ... and also plenty of disillusioned and damaged individuals.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
The problem is that revivalists are highly selective in the material they read and use. There's a fascinating account by Watchman Nee - widely acclaimed as an influence by many charismatic evangelicals - which describes a period of 'outpouring' in Shanghai in the 1920s and '30s I think.
Nee concluded afterwards that little had been gained and 'much lost'.
Yet warnings and checks and balances found in the records and accounts of earlier revivalists are either air-brushed out or overlooked.
Adrenalin takes over.
Far be it from me to offer advice - as I've plastered my own bitterness across these boards over the year - but it's best not to dwell on these things Komensky.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't reflect and learn from our previous experiences, but I've known far too many ex-revivalist types who simply bemoan their experiences in such fellowships without moving on to something more conducive or constructive.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Look—forget it. All of the 'healing' stuff is a con. If you hear about 'healing rooms', 'healing services' or someone with a 'healing ministry'—run for your life. I had a friend in London, dying of cancer, she had the typical 'prophetic' words from someone at Bethel Nut House in California, spent time and money to fly there and go to a 'healing room'. Of course she died anyway. Her widower's faith is now in tatters—the fault is not God's, but the deceivers and the deceived who continue the whole 'healing' charade. To date there are precisely zero proven 'healings' from Christian 'healers'. Yet, believe it or not, there are poor souls wandering this great planet of our either spreading or believing the lie.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I disagree G. Dwell. Here. Get it out. Embrace it. Embrace our younger foolish selves. We HAVE to find a way to embrace weakness and ignorance: ALL.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's OK K. All is well.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FROSTIE:
Thanks for your comments guys, and good to see the post has been put into the correct place.
Cwmbran has not changed much and all those council estates of Thornhill, Fairwater, Coed eva etc all remain the same and were not touched in the slightest by the failed "Welsh Outpouring", as indeed the whole town itself was not.
Frostie -
Just because the enthusiasts for such things like to immanetize the eschaton it doesn't follow that we have to do the same. So the fact that there are bills to pay, jobs to find, and social ills to overcome the following day doesn't rule out the possibility of God working the previous night. This has always been the case - from Acts onwards.
As Gamaliel says above, a fair amount of such things are down to human excitement. Yet, even a genuine shaking doesn't clear out human nature - the church of Jerusalem went back to pushing little old greek women out of the way after they had all experienced an anointing.
In this case of course it appears that it was a large part of it was driven by hype and hopefully there are thoughtful people around to help the disillusioned.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All of it. Not just a large part. With no room for sacred doubt, true faith.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's OK K. All is well.
NO it's not, K's friend has been screwed over - that is not OK.
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Twangist, we have to embrace the deceived regardless. That covers everyone. THAT'S what makes it OK.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
Martin you are very enigmatic
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
Can I ask how many of the people posting comments on this thread went to Victory Church? How do you know it's all false?
Sadly healing isn't always physical, sometimes death is a form of healing and I fear to many Christians don't seem to see it as such. By all means be sceptical, but don't totally dismiss the outpouring until you have experienced what is going on.
I wouldn't say that the outreach from the "outpouring" is dead, it is just flourishing in different ways in different places.
[ 05. July 2014, 15:31: Message edited by: Lord Pontivillian ]
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Can I ask how many of the people posting comments on this thread went to Victory Church? How do you know it's all false?
Given that God can use anyone and anything, I for one have never claimed it's all false.
However, on the last thread I produced proof that the pastor engaged in regular plagiarism on his blog (a blog, by the way, that a pastor in Horsham quoted, presumably in good faith, as part of his endorsement of the outpouring).
A trustee of Victory Church was informed of the plagiarism, the blog was pulled, but there was no acknowledgement of the fact or reply to my message.
To me that is a serious challenge to the credibility of the enterprise right there. I raised other concerns on last year's thread, too. These concerns are objective, so none of them require attendance at the meetings to be established.
quote:
don't totally dismiss the outpouring until you have experienced what is going on.
As someone who still feels they got some positive things out of the Toronto blessing, I will concede that God can do good things in such environments.
However (and this is a point that supporters of this kind of thing seem to ignore systematically and at their peril), the fact that individuals may be blessed is no excuse whatsoever for not holding the organisers and leaders to account when there is demonstrable proof of a lack of integrity, and every excuse for sounding warnings.
quote:
I wouldn't say that the outreach from the "outpouring" is dead, it is just flourishing in different ways in different places.
Excuse me, but that is pathetic. It's like John Wimber's infamous prophecy that revival would break out in Britain in 1990; when it signally failed to happen, it was explained that he really meant "preparation" for revival. That was the best part of 25 years ago now and I think you are still preparing...
Creative redefinition like this does the charismatic cause more harm than good. As Gamaliel has said in the past, it helps in New Church circles to have a short memory...
In my view, "outpourings" like this are overwhelmingly a distraction and a diversion of time, money and resources from the long-term work of seeking the Kingdom and letting Jesus build his Church.
[ 05. July 2014, 16:42: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think there were some eye-witness accounts on the archived thread, Lord Pontivillian.
I must admit, I've never visited Victory Church nor have I any particular desire to, despite it being in my home town. I still have relatives that I visit down there. To be honest, if I was visiting the area I'd have better things to do with my time ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I do know people who have been and so does my brother who still lives in South Wales. From what I can gather it's now different to what can be seen at any of these apparent focal-points ... lots of fervent singing and enthusiastic exhortation and people falling over when they're prayed for etc.
I've seen all of that before. Many, many times.
The only difference I can see this time is that there have been claims of healing and claims that it was going to be start of something huge. Again, we've heard all of that before.
From what I can gather, none of the healing claims have been substantiated.
Every now and then you do get a charismatic or Pentecostal church then seems to step up into over-drive all of a sudden and then starts to trumpet that it's in revival. The same thing happened in Telford and in Dudley in recent years and in both cases things fizzled out fairly quickly. You can't keep up that kind of frenetic spiritual momentum for very long.
A friend who visited Dudley who is a card-carrying charismatic and into things like that, came away thinking that it was all froth and hype.
Move along, there's nothing to see.
That said, and I think this was acknowledged on the earlier thread on this topic, Victory Church does have an effective - but sometimes controversial - outreach to drug addicts and so on. I've heard people who aren't otherwise impressed by the place acknowledge that.
I don't believe for a moment that it'll all be bad and all baloney - but as Frostie has noted, if there are false prophecies flying around then these things need to recognised and called into question.
False prophecy is false prophecy. You can't bury it under the carpet and say, 'Ah well, for all the criticisms it's revival really ...'
Do I think this is/was a revival in the UK rather than the US sense of the term - where 'revival' can be a term used for regular evangelistic meetings?
No, I emphatically don't.
Do I need to go to Victory Church to see for myself? I would if I thought there really was something to see. But again, I don't believe there is.
All we're seeing - or have seen - was another outburst of religious 'enthusiasm' that has given a particular church it's 15 minutes of fame yet appears to have had little impact on the community.
That's why I was asking Frostie about the impact on the housing estates up that Valley. Because if it was having an impact there, I might sit up and take notice.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Excuse me, but that is pathetic. It's like John Wimber's infamous prophecy that revival would break out in Britain in 1990; when it signally failed to happen, it was explained that he really meant "preparation" for revival. That was the best part of 25 years ago now and I think you are still preparing...
Correction, it was Paul Cain who prophesied that and John Wimber who endorsed it. See the article from that time here which has a lot to say to the events being discussed on this thread. Who remembers the Kansas City Prophets now?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I meant 'no difference' of course, rather than 'now difference'.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
At any rate, you know as well as I do, Lord Pontivillian that what is being claimed in instances like this isn't along the lines of, 'Oh, well, he/she died, what a merciful release ... that counts as healing ...'
No, far from it. What's being claimed are spectacular supernatural healings. And there's precious little evidence for them.
If they were that apparent then surely we'd expect the whole town to be shaken by such occurrences?
But no, that's not what we are seeing at all.
When we read about miraculous healings and so on in the NT then people appear to sit up and take notice.
Other than people from other charismatic churches travelling down in coaches to extended revivalist meetings, I don't see much evidence of any of these claims.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Thanks for that link, Eutychus. Interesting to read, speaking as a member of a Vineyard church...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Awesome Eutychus. Gamaliel too. But you know this cannot change Lord Pontevillian. Only confirm him in his thinking ESPECIALLY if your defense convinces him against his will. Nothing will bring him closer but inclusion, acknowledgement, endorsement.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Oh gosh I remember that phase well. ( I used to work for a Vineyard church in a past life)
1995ish I remember a "waves of the spirit" huge conference in Bournemouth with the at-the-time-leaving-vineyard Toronto folks.
Then 1997 I started with one of the more famous Vineyards at teh time. Oh gosh. we had "prayer for revival" meetings regularly. We'd had all the prophesy about revival/ Paul Cain/ John Wimber bits and then Gerald Coates was the funniest - "revival in MAy" and then when it didn't happen... oh "must be next may".
Oh I have so many stories from that time. I may be rather cynical these days. THere were many, seriously intelligent students (oxbridge) that thought they might not have to focus that hard on studies as revival would come before the end of the course and everyone would be needed....
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Awesome Eutychus. Gamaliel too. But you know this cannot change Lord Pontevillian. Only confirm him in his thinking ESPECIALLY if your defense convinces him against his will. Nothing will bring him closer but inclusion, acknowledgement, endorsement.
Martin, I hope you will excuse me if I gently suggest you back off a little. I think I know Lord P. a little better than you do, and I politely suggest that you do not make the sort of remarks you have made at his expense until you know him a lot better.
Lord P's remarks were framed around the profound absence, from this thread, of up-to-date, eye-witness, evidence. Most of what is being said here is inference and supposition.
I think we might, all of us, benefit from keeping our powder dry.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Lord P's remarks were framed around the profound absence, from this thread, of up-to-date, eye-witness, evidence. Most of what is being said here is inference and supposition.
Why is the issue of plagiarism out of date? It hasn't been acknowledged, simply covered up.
And as far as I can see, the independent evidence for what I understand to be the "foundational miracle" of this outpouring is singularly lacking.
The pattern of the "outpouring" resembles Toronto, Pensacola, Lakeland and so on in many respects; is it wise to choose to ignore the lessons learned from those episodes?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Awesome Eutychus. Gamaliel too. But you know this cannot change Lord Pontevillian. Only confirm him in his thinking ESPECIALLY if your defense convinces him against his will. Nothing will bring him closer but inclusion, acknowledgement, endorsement.
Oh dear. I have issues with Cwmbran, but I also see the good that has come from it. Good has come from these places regardless of the people involved and the lies/deceit they have woven. The plagiarism does not mean God was not at work in Cwmbran but that "his" people have failed in many ways.
My opinions have changed over the years, as several shipmates can attest and I don't mean my parents. My views as a Christian are constantly being reformed, but I have seen to much too struggle to believe that God isn't active today.
[ 05. July 2014, 21:55: Message edited by: Lord Pontivillian ]
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't think anyone here is saying that God is 'inactive', Lord Pontivillian.
Eutychus is highly critical of unsubstantiated claims but on his own admission still feels that he benefited greatly from the 'Toronto Blessing' 20 years ago now.
Other than Frostie, perhaps, who sounds like something of a cessationist to me, and who certainly uses intemperate terms - in my view - such as 'apostate' and Komensky who is very disillusioned, I don't think any of the other posters are saying that nothing good can come out of this.
I can't speak for the others, but I've been round the block a fair few times and nothing I've heard from Cwmbran has convinced me that we're dealing with anything more than the kind of 'enthusiasm' that surfaces in Pentecostal settings periodically.
I don't think we have to cite extremes like Lakeland and Todd Bentley (Bent Toddley as Daronmedway memorably called him) to see this as the most likely explanation in this case.
I've already mentioned Telford and Dudley. There was also Pensacola earlier. And people who were involved with the revival hype of the mid to late '90s have already shared their experiences of that.
I was heading away from revivalism by then but I well remember Gerald Coates's thing about 'revival in May' and so on.
I really don't know what more to say. The whole thing is the triumph of hope over experience.
Saying that the 'outpouring' (if that's what it was) hasn't fizzled out but is appearing elsewhere (where?) is bit like those name-it-and-claim-it prosperity-gospellers who used to go around saying, 'Well, he's been healed but the symptoms are persisting ...'
To apply a Yorkshire phrase (I lived there for nearly 30 years), 'Was he heck as like.'
You can't be healed and the symptoms persist. You are either healed or you aren't.
You can't have a revival that mightn't be apparent as one. It's either a revival or it isn't. If it WAS a revival I'd expect to hear more about it whenever I went home. I grew up in Cwmbran for goodness sake and still have relatives there. None of them have even mentioned it.
If there was a revival going on then surely it'd be the talk of the town?
But it isn't.
Other than a very good - and very balanced - article in the Big Issue, the only places I've heard this thing mentioned is in charismatic circles or here on the Ship. No-one else has said a dicky-bird about it.
If that's not grounds for being somewhat sceptical about it, I don't know what is.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Oh dear. I have issues with Cwmbran, but I also see the good that has come from it. Good has come from these places regardless of the people involved and the lies/deceit they have woven. The plagiarism does not mean God was not at work in Cwmbran but that "his" people have failed in many ways.
I don't disagree with any of this.
What I do disagree with is the notion that because God in his sovereignty can bring good out of bad stuff, the bad stuff and those responsible for it should be ignored.
Those responsible for this type of phenomenon frequently go on to become minor Christian celebrities. As such they become opinion-formers and influencers. Once they have achieved a certain level of notoriety, even respected Christian leaders who have endorsed them may refuse to speak out against wrongdoing because "it would be a bad witness", "we mustn't discourage people", etc. (or simply because it would reflect badly on them).
Simply put, wolves get a free pass to tyrannise the sheep. The fact that some sheep manage to grab a few bites of grass in between the tyranny does not address this problem.
I keep insisting on the plagiarism issue because:
- unlike testimonies of healing, the evidence was pretty much incontrovertible and plain for all to see
- it's an immediate, serious and widely recognised challenge to an individual's integrity
- the church responded to it by burying it, not addressing it. Unless and until such a serious issue is properly addressed, I think any further claims by that source are suspect.
Earlier I mentioned the Pensacola revival. The local paper did a series of award-winning articles on the revival.
The paper's coverage is fair enough to make Lord Pontivillian's point about Cwmbran for Pensacola:
quote:
Many have had an emotionally and spiritually stimulating experience there.Many have been baptized. Many have made a commitment to change their ways and live closer to God.
But the rest is worth noting too: quote:
...the first service, plus the accounts from members who were there, reveal otherwise and indicate the revival was well-planned and orchestrated to become a large and long-running enterprise.
I see little difference here, especially given the developments on Victory Church's website since a year ago.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ah, the magic word: enterpri$e
As ever Eutychus, superb, this is the voice of the spirit of a sound mind.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Sadly healing isn't always physical, sometimes death is a form of healing and I fear to many Christians don't seem to see it as such.
That's because it isn't a form of healing. It is a failure of healing. Death may be a relief, but it is not healing.
To heal someone is to make them well and to avoid their death. If someone told me that my child had been "healed" after dying of cancer, I would be tempted to "heal" them of their stupidity by the laying of of my hands around their throat.
God has given us fantastic ways to really heal ill people in the form of modern medicine, diagnostics and hospitals. Any other form of healing is at best misguided and in all other cases a sham set up to leech money out of vulnerable individuals.
It is people like that who give Christianity a bad name and I for one would welcome back throwing them to the lions to really allow them to test out their faith!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Considering the number of times I ever agree with anything deano says, ever: LP, please consider you must be very, very mistaken.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
God has given us fantastic ways to really heal ill people in the form of modern medicine, diagnostics and hospitals. Any other form of healing is at best misguided and in all other cases a sham set up to leech money out of vulnerable individuals.
It is people like that who give Christianity a bad name.
But if modern medicine were so utterly wonderful there wouldn't be any 'vulnerable individuals', would there? They'd just go to the doctor and everything would be hunky-dory.
In the Western world there are some individuals who refuse any kind of medical help because they're only interested in miracles. I suspect that such people are in the minority. Most of those who turn to faith healers are probably also well-known to their doctors. For some of them, faith healing will be the last resort, not the first. After all, there are faith healers whose PR relies on the sorrowful testimony of doctors who've 'done all they can' as part of the narrative of miracle-making. Doctors are required at the very least to pronounce a diagnosis.
I do think that most churches need a much better theology of suffering, illness and death. I presume that previous generations of evangelicals as well as mainstream Christians dealt with this better, because incurable illness and early death were a bigger part of their daily lives that they are today. Death is an affront to everyone's modern, Western, 'advanced' sensibilities, whether Christian or not.
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
Can you explain the case of the man who ruptured his tendon, went to the same doctor who diagnosed him,after prayer, and found out his tendon wasn't ruptured any more? I have known the person involved for coming up to 20 years. I trust him.
What would you have said on the day of Pentecost? Would you be looking for wine?
I know that some of you have suffered from Pentecostalism/Charismaticism but please don`t take the view that it`s all fake. I was very dismissive of high church services until I went to one.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Can you explain the case of the man who ruptured his tendon, went to the same doctor who diagnosed him,after prayer, and found out his tendon wasn't ruptured any more? I have known the person involved for coming up to 20 years. I trust him.
What I can explain is that tendon repair is utterly routine on the NHS. I know personally of examples of sewing on of fingers that have been removed in traumatic accidents, which involved several tendon repairs all at the same time. These have copious medical records to go with them.
Forgive my lack of faith, but I don't find a single case of tendon repair compelling evidence of an extraordinary outpouring of the Holy Spirit. My response to the person concerned would be "That's nice. Saved you a bit of time" - a response that would be, I suggest, far more sensible than calling a revival.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Lord Pontivillian (sorry for the 'ee' for an 'eye' last time, almost lex talionis of me).
This is going to be incredibly difficult for us. More for me than for you. I have to find a way of embracing you without reservation despite your otherness. I can do it with all others it feels like except Christian others. Which is most Christians! Most Christians are other to me, are more other to me than most non-Christians. So you're in good company.
So, we are other to each other with regard to healing, revival, the working of the Holy Spirit in those regards. We will never convince each other otherwise. Is there any way ahead for us together? Because I value your company. Regardless and because of your otherness. Is there a metawalk in which we can walk together despite our otherness?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not suggesting for a moment that there are any sex abuse issues going on here, but the similarity in systemic failure with what seems to have happened in Britain in the 1970s and 80s has suddenly struck me.
In the scandal over the "lost" Whitehall child abuse dossier, Norman Tebbit has said: quote:
people had an "almost unconscious" tendency to protect "the system".
I think that is also largely the case with the charismatic-evangelical "system" when allegations of things not being as they are claimed surface. Sometimes it goes by other terms: "not touching the Lord's anointed"; "believing the best"; "trusting our team".
It wasn't until ten years after I moved back into secular work that I came across the phrase - from two independent, non-Christian sources - that "confidence does not exclude control". It's a shame that assertion is beyond the pale in many Christian circles.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Lord Pontevillian, I don't think you are dealing here with people who are reluctant to attend charismatic or Pentecostal services and are dismissing them without having experienced them.
For the most part, those posting on this thread have been involved - either as observers or participants - for some considerable time. I was part of a pretty full-on charismatic evangelical fellowship for 18 years and part of a mildly charismatic Baptist church for six years. I've lived here about 7 or 8 years now and our local parish church is evangelical/charismatic.
So it's not as if I haven't seen it, done it, got the T-shirt.
The case of your friend's ruptured tendon could be a genuine healing or it could have been a misdiagnosis in the first place. I've no way of telling what it was. I'm simply glad that he doesn't have a problem with it any more.
I'm seconding what Doc Tor says about Deano's post.
I can count the number of times I've agreed with Deano on the fingers of ... on the finger of one hand.
Now I'm heading towards a fistful of agreement with him.
I'm not a cessationist and I don't doubt that genuine stuff does happen on the charismatic scene. Generally, I would posit, in a fairly quiet and dramatic way without any great deal of fanfare.
Heck, I won't name names but even today I heard a testimony from a well known evangelical 'name' concerning an experience he had within 8 weeks of what the doctors said would be his death. I have no doubt that the experience was genuine and it did involve something that sounded quite 'other' and supernatural if you like - but it also involved the hospital and the doctors.
I'm not dismissing claims of healing out of hand. But at the same time I'm not rushing to revivalist meetings looking for them because I've learned through long exposure to these things that the rhetoric exceeds the reality.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Gamaliel! You old backslider! I'm not a cessationist either, God can do what He wants. WHAT genuine stuff? Cheshire genuine? I watched Behind The Candelabra last night. Fascinating. Liberace had kidney failure and a vision of a nun in white and his kidneys recovered that night. He died obscenely of AIDS later.
And we conclude what?
For me it's ALL distraction. All instead of building the kingdom. Successful revival would be the biggest failure of all.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Can you explain the case of the man who ruptured his tendon, went to the same doctor who diagnosed him,after prayer, and found out his tendon wasn't ruptured any more? I have known the person involved for coming up to 20 years. I trust him.
What would you have said on the day of Pentecost? Would you be looking for wine?
I know that some of you have suffered from Pentecostalism/Charismaticism but please don`t take the view that it`s all fake. I was very dismissive of high church services until I went to one.
Yes, I would say the "doctor" should be reported to the GMC for missing such a basic diagnosis in the first place. Or did he go to A&E and they did an x-ray? In which case they should be reported. Because a ruptured tendon is quite specific in its symptoms. either your friend is lying, or the so-called doctor is, or you are.
God doesn't do that kind of nonsense; I will heal you but not you!
There is always a scientific reason for people dying. It may be unpalatable to people who demand control in their lives and can't cope when things get beyond them intellectually, but nevertheless, it is science that has the answers. But God gave us the "seen and unseen", which includes science.
[ 06. July 2014, 19:51: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
Lying brings no glory to God. Why do it? I am against claiming miracles falsely as anyone.
[ 06. July 2014, 19:56: Message edited by: Lord Pontivillian ]
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
These revival type things seem to have been crying wolf for centuries. Hence my heavy scepticism, every time I hear of a new one, and total lack of surprise when it goes phut.
I believe in the possibility of miracles, I don't think they arrive on cue at revival meetings. I also cleave to occam's razor, find me a well documented case of healing that is not better explained by spontaneous remission within the bounds of normal medical experience - then you would hold my attention with a healing claim.
What makes me really angry, is the people I work with who have serious mental health problems who have been very damaged by this kind of psuedo-religious practice.
At least the victory church lot aren't soliciting for money, or claiming to be sprinkled with gold dust I suppose.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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