|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: What puts you off from setting foot inside a church?
|
St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Which brings me to a more serious point. This particular parish might be cheesy but it is active in the community other than on a Sunday and it is welcoming.
Irrespective of tradition or worship style, that has to be a 'draw'.
If somewhere feels remote and disengaged that it's unlikely to encourage a repeat visit.
Warmth, friendliness and authenticity will carry a church a fair way.
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Which brings me to a more serious point. This particular parish might be cheesy but it is active in the community other than on a Sunday and it is welcoming.
Irrespective of tradition or worship style, that has to be a 'draw'.
If somewhere feels remote and disengaged that it's unlikely to encourage a repeat visit.
Warmth, friendliness and authenticity will carry a church a fair way.
This is so true.
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Am I right in thinking that Oblatus and Pigwidgeon are in America? And TEC? Hence that most funerals would be of church members.
Yes, and most funerals are indeed of parishioners.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
Found my off put Sunday. The first Sunday of Advent not even mentioned and entire church decked out for Christmas. Pastor, "announced thanks to all who had worked so hard getting our church ready for the Christmas season."
Quite right. Just turn round, head out of the door, and keep walking.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Am I right in thinking that Oblatus and Pigwidgeon are in America? And TEC? Hence that most funerals would be of church members.
Yes, and most funerals are indeed of parishioners.
In the English context parishioner simply means anyone who lives in the parish. In that sense most of the funerals are of those who were parishioners at some point in their lives - though they may rarely have darkened the door of the church.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hmmm ... I've never been to a funeral service where communion was offered ...
I rarely go to one where it isn't.
So you're quite happy with being exclusive then?
That's a great statement from the church towards a grieving family. No wonder we're fighting an uphill battle
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Am I right in thinking that Oblatus and Pigwidgeon are in America? And TEC? Hence that most funerals would be of church members.
Yes, and most funerals are indeed of parishioners.
In the English context parishioner simply means anyone who lives in the parish. In that sense most of the funerals are of those who were parishioners at some point in their lives - though they may rarely have darkened the door of the church.
Perhaps I should have said "communicants."
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
What's exclusive about it (necessarily)? The funeral isn't for the benefit of the mourners but to commend the departed to God, and those who respect the deceased but don't share their faith should also respect their expression of it.
A requiem mass wouldn't be pastorally appropriate for someone who wasn't a communicant, or whose family were unhappy with it, but in the case of the funerals of church members already referred to it would be.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
And FWIW, here in the CinW at least it wouldn't be exclusive of Christians from other traditions: as of this Advent Sunday (so, three days ago)Communion is officially open to all the baptised.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What's exclusive about it (necessarily)? The funeral isn't for the benefit of the mourners but to commend the departed to God, and those who respect the deceased but don't share their faith should also respect their expression of it.
A requiem mass wouldn't be pastorally appropriate for someone who wasn't a communicant, or whose family were unhappy with it, but in the case of the funerals of church members already referred to it would be.
I'd disagree about the funeral not being for the benefit of the mourners - the dearly departed is in the hands of someone vastly more competent than you or I. And, in practice, what happens is up to the next of kin. But if the next of kin want a Requiem Mass, they should have a Requiem Mass. Particularly if that is what the deceased would also have wanted.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
A Christian funeral is undoubtedly to commend the soul of the deceased to God's loving care. It is at the same time to comfort the mourners in their loss and to remind them of the hope for the future which is both theirs as well as the deceased's.
However it is not simply a question of mourners coming along demanding a Requiem Mass . It is possible that the deceased would not wish a Requiem Mass. It is also not unknown for relatives
of Catholics not to want to sit through a Requiem Mass. I was speaking recently to a priest in a Scottish city with a large Catholic population.
He said that in the previous ten days he had taken 12 funerals, only two of which had wished a Requiem Mass, though the others had stipulated that they wanted the presence of a priest - but no more than that.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I should have said, a funeral service isn't 'just' for the benefit of mourners, or even 'primarily'. I would tend to go with the latter in theory, but in practice, yes, the actual service needs to be pastorally helpful to them.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
I avoid churches with large congregations and central city churches where there are commuter congregations.
This is not a hard and fast rule, those are just indicators.
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What's exclusive about it (necessarily)? The funeral isn't for the benefit of the mourners but to commend the departed to God, and those who respect the deceased but don't share their faith should also respect their expression of it.
A requiem mass wouldn't be pastorally appropriate for someone who wasn't a communicant, or whose family were unhappy with it, but in the case of the funerals of church members already referred to it would be.
Funerals are a means by which we recognise grief and loss, and where e share comfort and care.
A Requiem mass fractures the sense of community - however much we believe that we and the deceased are in the hands of God - simply because there is an act where not all are able (welcome) to participate. Some will be glad to be able to take part, others will be locked out - all will go away with very different views of God, the church, eternal life etc.
Personal experience. A Requiem mass for Mrs M's cousin, killed in a car crash at the age of 17. It was made very clear at the very start that non believers and non Catholics could not receive: it had the impact of bringing division into an event when the church had the chance to shine and to be truly inclusive with a congregation of some 300+ people many of them very young - and all of them devastated. many went away worse and some like yours truly, rather annnoyed at the liberty that jhad been taken with people and, to a certain extent, with death.
Second experience. A requiem mass for a young lady - a well known and well loved teacher in her home town - who had died of cancer. Over 500 people there - 4 communicated. I'm sure that speaks volumes -- esp as the time taken for the Requiem mass meant no time for words of hope from the bible for the deceased nor for the congregation. The focus was on the actions not the event.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I've not been to a Requiem Mass but if I did I doubt I'd feel 'excluded'. But then, I'm familiar with the theology if not the actual practice.
It's very much down to context. If a Requiem Mass is what the deceased or the family wanted, then fine.
I can understand it being a bit of a shock or awkward if people weren't expecting it.
Thing is, though, how far do we take these things? If we wanted to be 'include' we ght end up cutting out all the prayers and explicitly Christian content whatsoever on the grounds that this wouldn't offend anybody.
There is a balance of course and it's very much depend on the context.
I've known of funeral services where charismatics have insisted on being loud and lively and upbeat in their worship, irrespective of the feelings and sensibilities of the grieving relatives.
Some might find that helpful, others might be put off or upset by it.
However it's done I suggest funerals should be sensitive to the setting and context as well as the sensibilities of the mourners and the wished of the deceased and the bereaved.
Mind you, I come from South Wales and we love funerals down there. We can't get enough if them. If we can't find one for someone we know, we'll go to those of people we don't ...
Again, that's a cultural thing.
All these things come into it, of course.
It'd be as 'wrong' to proscribe a Requiem Mass in the appropriate setting as it would be to insist that a black Pentecostal church should drop Gospel music at their funeral services.
It's all a question of context.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I'm not really following why it might be deemed appropriate to drop the usual religious rules and doctrines at a funeral. If the dead person was a sufficiently strict Roman Catholic to request a requiem, would they not also be sufficiently strict to understand that this meant that only people who met a particular standard could partake in the Mass?
I don't understand the attraction of funerals, bloody horrible things.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
I cannot see why a Requiem Mass should fracture a community any more than it is already fractured.
Most of us live in communities with differing religious beliefs, even amongst those who claim to be Christian.
If we go to a funeral, it is surely to show respect to someone who has died or to show solidarity with those who mourn. Why should we feel greater fracture than at any other time if we do not share in every detail the religious beliefs of the deceased ?
If I go to a secular funeral service I do not complain if the ceremony contains no religious ideas, even although I might personally have wished for this.
The Catholic Requiem Mass participation is open to all, while reception of Communion is limited to those who fully share the beliefs of the community.
Those who fully share the beliefs of the community would also be aware of the further conditions of being or at the very least wishing to be in a state of grace.
Anyone is welcome to join the community. If everyone did ,there would be no fracturing of the community. At the moment this is not the case and we have to try to respect the differences in belief and approach.
From my experience of Requiem Masses when there may be many people present who are not used to this type of prayer ,some people are simply uncomfortable about being in church,full stop and would certainly not want to go forward to Communion.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't understand the attraction of funerals, bloody horrible things.
If you're about to tell us that you've discovered a way to make them redundant, please don't be coy!
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
Originally posted by Forthview:
quote:
From my experience of Requiem Masses when there may be many people present who are not used to this type of prayer ,some people are simply uncomfortable about being in church,full stop and would certainly not want to go forward to Communion.
That would be my experience. I usually say something at the beginning of the Eucharistic Prayer to the effect that if anyone would like to receive communion they are perfectly welcome but if they would prefer to receive a blessing etc. Most people are sufficiently mature to decide for themselves whether they should receive, go up for a blessing or stay in their pews.
Obviously, a RC Priest in that context has to take a harder line but, if you are a guest in someone else's house you play by their rules.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't understand the attraction of funerals, bloody horrible things.
My wife says the same, only she sort of 'got' it at her Aunt's funeral recently and began to talk openly about plans for her own - she has incurable cancer.
As for not understanding the attraction of funerals, you haven't lived in South Wales long enough. Hang around and it may begin to draw you in ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously, there's a strong community element to funerals in South Wales. That brings in a bitter-sweet element and don't forget that us South Walians love being maudlin and wallowing in tragedy, enjoying ill-health and describing our ailments in great detail to anyone who will listen.
It's the only part of the country I know where complete strangers will tell you about their bowel movements or other intimate medical details at bus stops and so on.
This may shock you, but we enjoy funerals down there. I enjoyed my Dad's funeral. I loved every minute of it. I'd hold it again if I could.
Don't get me wrong. I was sad at the same time. I didn't want to get up and dance on his grave - if he'd had one ...
But there is a sense of community cohesion and a kind of Welsh sentimentality that comes into play on such occasions. I'd imagine it'd be similar - but without the Welsh element - in other former industrial areas - the former mining areas of Durham and South Yorkshire for instance.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
|
Posted
Church funerals are rarer than hen's teeth around here where most of the funeral directors steer the bereaved towards civil celebrants who operate out of the chapels at the crematorium or cemetery.
I've heard the civil celebrants at work over the intercom at the crem whilst waiting for my funeral to start and they are often empty and without hope. Sometimes they use psalms but take out references to God. At my FiL's committal of ashes we were told by the funeral director that he was going to read a poem which started 'Our Father...' He was very surprised when my husband and I joined in.
Every time we do get a funeral in church we work really hard on our welcome. We will get it wrong but we try.
--------------------
At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
We don't live far from the cemetery (it isn't a big town but it is quite a large cem) and often see funeral processions including sometimes horse-and-carts.
I find the cultural attachment to burial very distasteful. I was talking to someone the other day about their "need" to commemorate the mining disaster, which co-incidentally happened today in 1860. To me, that's quite a strange thing. One thing to remember or commemorate someone who you knew, quite another to feel social pressure to formally do something for an event that happened 150 years ago and for whom it would be almost impossible for you to have known anyone involved.
Of course I understand the personal needs and religious wishes for grief, I just can't get my head around the idea why those who have nothing to do with it think they have any kind of ownership on the process.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I told you, you haven't lived in South Wales long enough. You don't get it.
I thought you might to some extent as you grew up in the Forest of Dean if I remember rightly, another former mining area.
The fact that you are puzzled why a mining disaster in 1860 still holds traction shows me how you didn't get it at all.
There is little hope for you, I'm afraid ...
You may as well move out of South Wales now.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You may as well move out of South Wales now.
Yeah, because I guess you couldn't wait to.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
'You can take the boy out if the Valley, but you can't take the Valley out of the boy ...'
I suffer from the 'hiraeth' in my exile.
There's an old Welsh poem that runs something like, 'Never stay more than a year in England, that cold, heartless place./The place where the bird was hatched/Is the place it will always return.'
Something like that.
Thing is, if you don't 'get' the sense of tribal identity then you're always going to be a fish out of water in the Valleys.
As for having a sense of connection to events that happened before we were born, that's only the same thing as people commemorating WW1 or any other historical event that still resonates with people.
We all have our equivalents of those.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You may as well move out of South Wales now.
But, where would he go? Because, AFAICT, every community has their own version of a tragedy to the community, with the same general spread of responses to that. Whether historical or recent.
Community grief is a strange thing, and no two people in a community will respond the same way. A tragedy in a community (whether a mine collapse, a major accident, a murder, the loss of the pals brigade in the Somme, or anything else) will directly affect some people (with relatives or close friends killed or injured), indirectly affect many others (they have a friend/relative directly affected), and touch some people hardly at all.
If we just take that last group, people who don't actually know anyone killed or injured and don't know anyone who knows someone (in a small community that will be a very small number of people initially, but will rapidly grow as the event recedes into being history). Some of them will feel a real grief on behalf of others who they don't know. They'll be at the police barrier putting down flowers, they'll be at the memorial service etc. Others won't join in the public grief at all. And, certainly when it's a historic event, may not understand why others like them feel the need to participate in the community grief and remembrance. I don't think that makes them any less a part of the community, it's just the way people are.
It happens on a national scale too. It's been a century since the big battles of Flanders. The survivors, the widows of the dead, and the vast majority of the children of the dead have long since died themselves. None of us are actually directly affected by the loss of so many young men in the trenches. Yet, the nation continues to remember. And, that act of remembering is important to some people and meaningless to others.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I think this perception of the valleys that Gamaliel is putting forward is utter bilge. There are regular funerals, but they're not blocking the road with attendees. A few people want to commemorate something that happened in 1860, the vast majority don't give a toss.
Just like chapel attendance, the funeral attending and memorial marking is only being done by a tiny percentage of older people, so we're very much at home with the majority of people around here - thanks for your concern.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I was going to say we have strayed off-topic, but I'm not so sure. If people don't feel that their popular sentiment resonates with what is going on in church, they won't be attracted.
Not many years ago (before Princess Di?) roadside tributes to victims of crashes were extremely rare. Now you see them everywhere. That's not elderly Welsh miners' widows doing this, it's people of all ages and backgrounds. Votive candle stands in churches are now much more common, because they offer people an opportunity to express their emotion in prayer.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
An event that happened 150 years ago and for whom it would be almost impossible for you to have known anyone involved.
The folk in your town must be extremely long-lived if anyone can have known someone who was involved ...
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I didn't say that funerals spill out onto the streets or you have to queue round the block.
All I've said is that we do enjoy a good funeral in South Wales. I'll introduce you to my brother, he thrives on them.
But the point others have made about collective memory and memorials, the lighting of candles and so on - yes, those things resonate with many people.
Of course, they don't with everyone, Mr cheesy being a case in point.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I didn't say that funerals spill out onto the streets or you have to queue round the block.
All I've said is that we do enjoy a good funeral in South Wales. I'll introduce you to my brother, he thrives on them.
And I can introduce you to a large number of people in this town who only go to funerals irregularly for close relatives.
quote:
But the point others have made about collective memory and memorials, the lighting of candles and so on - yes, those things resonate with many people.
Of course, they don't with everyone, Mr cheesy being a case in point.
Those are all different things. Those who go to funerals regularly are not the same people who leave flowers during national times of grief, are not the same people who commemorate 150 year old disasters.
Wrapping these up together is not helping - and anyway is completely off topic. If you want to know what keeps other people around here from going inside a church, the answer must be practically everything given so few ever go.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Alright, don't take on ...
I could cite stacks of instances of people I know in South Wales who attend funerals of people they don't know in order to support the family, be nosey and a whole host of other reasons.
As for the main topic, what puts people off from entering churches, I could posit all sorts of reasons for that, both in a South Walian context and wider afield.
The OP, though, addressed us as Shippies rather than society in general.
I'm happy to get back to the main point.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
'See how these Christians love one another (not)' may be one of the reasons many folk never set foot inside a church. By this, I mean the constant squabbling over Dead Horses, amongst other things...
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
'See how these Christians love one another (not)' may be one of the reasons many folk never set foot inside a church. By this, I mean the constant squabbling over Dead Horses, amongst other things...
IJ
Like a squabbling bag of cats
moves the Church of God
Brothers we are treading
Where no sane man has trod
We are not divided;
Oh, no, really
One in truth and doctrine
Just see us at Drumcree!
Onward Christian soldiers
Spoiling for a fight
With the cross of Jesus
Clearly out of sight.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Like a mighty tortoise moves the Church of God scans better....
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Like a mighty tortoise moves the Church of God scans better....
IJ
But bag of cats fits my sense better.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Indeed it does, and it's a powerful image!
There's a serious point here. Leaving aside questions of locked doors, out-of-date noticeboards/websites, liturgy, churchmanship etc., the sheer amount of time and words wasted by churches on Dead Horse issues is for many, I'm sure, a real off-put.
If I were to move to another town, it's the inclusive churches I'd be checking out.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Indeed it does, and it's a powerful image!
There's a serious point here. Leaving aside questions of locked doors, out-of-date noticeboards/websites, liturgy, churchmanship etc., the sheer amount of time and words wasted by churches on Dead Horse issues is for many, I'm sure, a real off-put.
If I were to move to another town, it's the inclusive churches I'd be checking out.
IJ
Aye, but the the conservatives will say that we're the ones making the waves by pushing for changes in teaching.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
There's also the issue of alternatives, of course.
If you were living in 19th century Britain there were plenty of Christian options - Anglicans, a squillion varieties of non-conformist, Catholic ... a few exotic groups ... but not a great deal in terms of non-aligned or more general 'spirituality' or other World Faiths ...
It's interesting to note how quickly church attendance declined once alternative means of spending one's free-time opened up. I've seen a fascinating study of non-conformist churches in Huddersfield, for instance - one public transport and the cinema developed more widely in the 1920s the drop-off in chapel attendance was marked.
Prior to that people were involved with all sorts of social activities centred around churches and chapels - various groups such as Christian Endeavour, amateur dramatics, sports clubs, lantern-slide shows - a whole raft of stuff.
Now you could suddenly go to the cinema or jump on a bus and go somewhere else ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
posted by Baptist Trainfan quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote:
An event that happened 150 years ago and for whom it would be almost impossible for you to have known anyone involved.
The folk in your town must be extremely long-lived if anyone can have known someone who was involved ...
In general I'd agree - except that one of the elderly basses in my choir had a grandfather who, having been born in 1798, fought at Waterloo. The grandfather was 58 when my friend's father was born and lived to the age of 101; my friend's father was 79 when Michael (his last child) was born and also made it past the 100. The upshot is that my friend was regaled with tales of his grandfather's exploits at the Duchess of Richmond's ball, Waterloo and later attendance as part of Wellington's staff at the signing of the Treaty of Paris at only second-hand.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Indeed it does, and it's a powerful image!
There's a serious point here. Leaving aside questions of locked doors, out-of-date noticeboards/websites, liturgy, churchmanship etc., the sheer amount of time and words wasted by churches on Dead Horse issues is for many, I'm sure, a real off-put.
If I were to move to another town, it's the inclusive churches I'd be checking out.
IJ
We plan a major move after retirement (to a cheaper region of the country) and will necessarily have to switch churches. I've had a bellyfull about fighting about social issues, LGBT clergy, and who gets the church building. I am going to be seeking churches that work and play well with others.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In general I'd agree - except that one of the elderly basses in my choir had a grandfather who, having been born in 1798, fought at Waterloo. The grandfather was 58 when my friend's father was born and lived to the age of 101; my friend's father was 79 when Michael (his last child) was born and also made it past the 100. The upshot is that my friend was regaled with tales of his grandfather's exploits at the Duchess of Richmond's ball, Waterloo and later attendance as part of Wellington's staff at the signing of the Treaty of Paris at only second-hand.
Maudie Hopkins (d 2008) was said to be the oldest civil war widow (the US one, obvs). She married William M. Cantrell in 1934 when she was 19 and he was 86 - goodness knows why.
It is vanishingly unlikely, but possible, that someone alive knew someone who was involved in an incident in 1860.
[ 02. December 2016, 13:26: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Maudie Hopkins (d 2008) was said to be the oldest civil war widow (the US one, obvs). She married William M. Cantrell in 1934 when she was 19 and he was 86 - goodness knows why.
The key word there is 'widow.' She got widows' benefits. For the rest of her life.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The key word there is 'widow.' She got widows' benefits. For the rest of her life.
Yes. And it appears someone alive in fairly recent times knew someone alive from the 1860s.
Even - shudder - in the bibical sense.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The key word there is 'widow.' She got widows' benefits. For the rest of her life.
Yes. And it appears someone alive in fairly recent times knew someone alive from the 1860s.
Even - shudder - in the bibical sense.
Famously of course, John Tyler was born in 1790 and became 10th president of the US. Certainly in 2012 when one of the papers discovered this fact he had 2 living grandchildren. Not great-great-whatever grandchildren, children of one of his sons.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Continuing with this entertaining tangent, I'm writing this today and I can remember someone from my childhood who was born in 1861.
In the early 1980s an elderly woman told me that if her husband were still alive, that day would have been his 120th birthday. He had been a widower when she married him, and she had had stepchildren who were older than she was. I did not get exact figures, but estimated that there had been about 40 years difference between them.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
Who's going to be the first to take down their crucifix and put up a big smiley-face?
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Who's going to be the first to take down their crucifix and put up a big smiley-face?
How about this one?
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
Whatever you do, don't show the dean at St John the Divine...
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
