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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What puts you off from setting foot inside a church?
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The people at one of our churches voted against removing a large hanging crucufix.
It was claimed that several people found it 'gory' and 'gruesome' and that they'd neve set foot inside the church ever again.
Never mind that the crucifix shows what's at the center of our faith.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The crucifix on the rood screen in the local Victorian Bodley church was cited as something that should be removed by the Elim Pentecostal minister who found*/finds it repulsive and off-putting. Several of his friends attend that CofE building and would like to see the rood screen removed.
It's unusual as the crucifix is flanked by John and Mary, as is common, with Mary Magdalene with jar of nard crouched at the foot of the cross. Although it doesn't look it, the screen is wide enough to walk along or have a stepladder positioned on top of it (to reach the top of the organ).
* he's moved away, but I think he is still around. I'm not so can't confirm.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The people at one of our churches voted against removing a large hanging crucufix.
It was claimed that several people found it 'gory' and 'gruesome' and that they'd neve set foot inside the church ever again.
Leave them to their smug, complacent and selfish little lives with no wish to know what is happening in local Accident and Emergency departments, hospice for the dying or homeless hostels, let alone refugee camps and war zones throughout the world. Christian hop and resurrection can only come though the cross.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
Well, being an RC I'd seek one out, but if I saw a biretta or info about the Latin Mass, or other pre V2 practices I'd remove myself quickly. I'd be happy with any MOTR or High Anglican Mass / Eucharistic service too.
My most acutely embarrassing experience was attending the dedication of two nephews at an evangelical service which was held in a cinema smelling of popcorn, with a worship band of vile music and testimony from a number of people describing lucky escapes which they attributed to God directly intervening. And it lasted an hour and a half. Never again.
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Only an hour and a half? You were lucky...
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
Well, being an RC I'd seek one out, but if I saw a biretta or info about the Latin Mass, or other pre V2 practices I'd remove myself quickly. I'd be happy with any MOTR or High Anglican Mass / Eucharistic service too.
You'd be more likely to encounter birettas at the latter rather than an RC church.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The people at one of our churches voted against removing a large hanging crucufix.
It was claimed that several people found it 'gory' and 'gruesome' and that they'd neve set foot inside the church ever again.
Leave them to their smug, complacent and selfish little lives with no wish to know what is happening in local Accident and Emergency departments, hospice for the dying or homeless hostels, let alone refugee camps and war zones throughout the world. Christian hop and resurrection can only come though the cross.
Overly judgemental. You have no idea if they are smug, complacent, or selfish.
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
It's not a question of what people 'like'. It's a question of what brings us nearer to the truth. I would argue that a crucifix with the figure of Christ reveals the resurrection which only comes as a result of his death, commitment to the end. Whereas an empty cross could just be an empty symbol. It depends how you read it.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The people at one of our churches voted agaijnst removing a large hanging crucufix.
It was claimed that several people found it 'gory' and 'gruesome' and that they'd neve set foot inside the church ever again.
Leave them to their smug, complacent and selfish little lives with no wish to know what is happening in local Accident and Emergency departments, hospice for the dying or homeless hostels, let alone refugee camps and war zones throughout the world. Christian hop and resurrection can only come though the cross.
Overly judgemental. You have no idea if they are smug, complacent, or selfish.
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
Christianity has never preached an empty cross, only an empty tomb.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
There are two separate issues here. One is the idea that the cross and suffering are to be ignored or downplayed. This is what I was criticizing.
The other is the idea that words are the principal means of understanding rather than symbolism and images. If that’s what you think, then sure you don’t like images.
But for the Christians the Word was made Flesh, not made Book. And current post-structuralist philosophy indicates how very unreliable words are.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Christianity has never preached an empty cross, only an empty tomb.
Yes. An empty cross shows only that he died and they took him down so they could use the cross to kill somebody else. Which is true of every victim of crucifixion. That speaks more to efficient executioners than resurrection.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Christianity has never preached an empty cross, only an empty tomb.
Yes. An empty cross shows only that he died and they took him down so they could use the cross to kill somebody else. Which is true of every victim of crucifixion. That speaks more to efficient executioners than resurrection.
All sorts of assumptions here and above about how what a symbol can mean to a person.
It reminds me of a Buddhist meditation course where I was told that a particular tanka was THE representation of compassion.
And while I agree with the unreliability (subjective interpretation) of words, it is a mistake to think that the language of images is immune from its own unreliability.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Meaculpa
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# 11821
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Posted
Being effusively "greeted" and/or asked to wear a name badge and/or asked to stand up at some point in service either to identify oneself or be identified. A calm "good morning" and offer of the pew bulletin is of course welcome - then leave it to the individual congregant to ask questions, request further information and so on. "Be still, and know that I am God."
Posts: 363 | From: York, ON | Registered: Sep 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
All sorts of assumptions here and above about how what a symbol can mean to a person.
It reminds me of a Buddhist meditation course where I was told that a particular tanka was THE representation of compassion.
What a symbol can mean to a person, or what a symbol can mean as a mode of communication? Because nobody can be expected what any individual will take from a symbol, except for those things that the symbol is generally held to mean by the population or known subsets of the population.
quote:
And while I agree with the unreliability (subjective interpretation) of words, it is a mistake to think that the language of images is immune from its own unreliability.
I'm not sure I did.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
And while I agree with the unreliability (subjective interpretation) of words, it is a mistake to think that the language of images is immune from its own unreliability.
I'm not sure I did. [/QB]
No, you didn't. I should have made it clear that this was in response to Venbede's
quote:
The other is the idea that words are the principal means of understanding rather than symbolism and images. ...
And current post-structuralist philosophy indicates how very unreliable words are.
This para not specifically addressed to mt - And ISTM that "those things that the symbol is generally held to mean by the population or known subsets of the population" would be communicated in some ways by words, so images and words would be complementary without either assuming ascendancy over the other.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
And still others prefer the empty cross because of blinkered Prot iconoclasm.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
And some prefer a Christus Rex.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
And still others prefer the empty cross because of blinkered Prot iconoclasm.
And others consider even an empty cross to be dangerously Papist.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
And still others prefer the empty cross because of blinkered Prot iconoclasm.
Where does this venom come from. Certainly not from the suffering Christ on the Cross, if His words are anything to go by.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
And some prefer a Christus Rex.
Thanks for this. It is new to me. An internet search returned this interesting post Christus Rex: The ancient Cross
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
And some prefer a Christus Rex.
Thanks for this. It is new to me. An internet search returned this interesting post Christus Rex: The ancient Cross
That's fascinating. I had a flip through two of my books on Byzantine art, and the only crucifixes I could find were of the "reposing" variety. I wonder if it's an east/west thing?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There are cross-overs. In the Veneto region of Italy you find hybrid Eastern/Western designs and some of the 11th and 12th century crucifixes look very Byzantine. They begin to diverge around the 13th and 14th centuries ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Dear all,
Please, can posters avoid perjorative language about one anothers' traditions. It is not helpful, and we try to keep things respectful hereabouts!
Your assistance is as ever appreciated.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some like a cross showing the suffering of Christ for us. Others like an empty cross showing the promise of the resurrection.
And still others prefer the empty cross because of blinkered Prot iconoclasm.
Where does this venom come from. Certainly not from the suffering Christ on the Cross, if His words are anything to go by.
I must say I got into my thirties before being even aware that there was a controversy. If you get into a church, note the empty cross or the crucifix, and think "aha, these people don't really believe in the Resurrection" you do, candidly, have to have a quiet word with yourself.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The Evangelical argument is that an empty cross witnesses to the Resurrection.
The Catholic argument is different - an empty cross fails to illustrate the crucifixion.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Dear all,
Please, can posters avoid perjorative language about one anothers' traditions. It is not helpful, and we try to keep things respectful hereabouts!
Your assistance is as ever appreciated.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
Which is precisely why I've not said what would put me off from setting foot inside a church, because it is the sort of things that others here find convincing and nourishing.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Evangelical argument is that an empty cross witnesses to the Resurrection.
The Catholic argument is different - an empty cross fails to illustrate the crucifixion.
Those are certainly the arguments, or variations of the arguments, that are frequently made and that I have heard as long as I can remember, starting with from my mother. But I suspect that those arguments are really post hoc explanations, and may not really be what much Protestant objection to crucifixes was initially about.
My guess is that, at root, the crucifix in a church/on or near the altar was associated by many (not all) Protestants with Catholic understanding of the sacrifice of the Mass. If that's the case, objection to the crucifix initially had to do with rejection of anything that was perceived to suggest or reinforce that understanding of sacrifice. It's the same concern that led many (not all) Protestants to reject use of the word "altar."
I'm also guessing that the "resurrection" explanation arose later, when the original motivations were forgotten, and when "cross or crucifix" had become emblematic of Catholic vs. Protestant differences. My hunch is that the explanation arose to provide a positive explanation/symbolism of "empty" crosses vs. a negative/reactive symbolism.
Of course, I could be way off base on all of that.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think it may have just been due to plain old iconoclasm. The corpus on the cross is an image. That's bad. It has to go. Toss it on the fire with those statutes of Mary. What's left when you remove the corpus from a crucifix is an empty cross.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think it may have just been due to plain old iconoclasm. The corpus on the cross is an image. That's bad. It has to go. Toss it on the fire with those statutes of Mary. What's left when you remove the corpus from a crucifix is an empty cross.
Yes, that's definitely true, and the iconoclasm was linked to concerns of idolatry. For some Protestants, there was a distrust of symbols altogether—no cross in the church at all was common among Reformed churches until maybe the mid-to-late 1800s/early 1990s.
I still suspect, though, that with the specific case of crucifixes, there was more to it. That, as I said though, is a purely fallible hunch.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
History is one thing, present understanding can be another.
I understand that until late antiquity the cross was a T cross.
But the discussion does demonstrate that the meaning and communication of symbols cannot be divorced from the social context in which they live.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
History is one thing, present understanding can be another.
I understand that until late antiquity the cross was a T cross.
But the discussion does demonstrate that the meaning and communication of symbols cannot be divorced from the social context in which they live.
Agreed.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
History is one thing, present understanding can be another.
I understand that until late antiquity the cross was a T cross.
But the discussion does demonstrate that the meaning and communication of symbols cannot be divorced from the social context in which they live.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
What will put me off is an extremely long period of announcements. Some churches have an announcement period before worship begins, others will have them at the end. Some even do them in the middle of the service.
The ones in the middle of the service, to me, sounds like a commercial break.
My congregation has them at the end of the service, but I would much rather have them at the beginning so that at the end people go out into the world for service. However, the majority of the congregation like the announcements at the end.
So, this past week, several individuals got up to make announcements, and they ended up taking more time in total than the time for the sermon. I ended up emailing the pastor and told him the announcement time was a big turn off. He has yet to reply to the email--which is also a big turn off.
Something I have learned about announcements--the longer they are the lesser the people remember. Also, visitors are really not interested in the affairs of the congregation.
There are so many ways to convey announcements now. Bulletins, email, newsletters, social media, even phone trees. There is simply no need for a lengthy announcement period, before, in the middle or after.
I rest my case.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
There is no "right place" for announcements! I know in Anglican churches it's quite common to have them at the end, before the final hymn and benediction. In Nonconformist churches they often come about 20 minutes in, after the opening family worship but before children leave for their classes and the offering is uplifted. A newer trend is to have rolling announcements projected on Powerpoint as worshippers enter.
In my view, you need to have a good notice-sheet and only announce items which need to be "underlined" or last-minute important stuff which missed the deadline. And never have different people each give "their" announcement unless it's something very special (eg a specific charity offering) you wish to highlight.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Wot Baptist Trainfan said.
The church I go to at present has the notices after the Peace, and before the Offertory Hymn, which does indeed seem like a commercial break. A
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Notices: while there are some that need to be announced - Banns of Marriage - most are just drawing attention to things advertised on posters in the porch.
Solution at my current shack: At the end of the intercessions Banns are published (if there are any) followed by quick prayer for those preparing for wedding, then intercessions closed. Then hymn for Offertory announced, any special retiring collection (Disaster Relief, etc) drawn to attention of faithful, all urged to take and read pew sheet, then The Peace, 15 second pause followed by Hymn.
It works. And the 15 seconds means we don't have hoards of people milling around 'sharing' the peace.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is no "right place" for announcements.
I've seen them given before the service starts, where this means the canon giving the notices at the advertised start time of the service, but then leaving the front and returning to the vestry to the sounds of organly noodling, followed by brief silence, then processing in to the first hymn.
I presume this was the only logical response to concluding a) the notices are dreadful anywhere but b) people do need to hear about some things.
I really like the idea of banns being included before the intercessions and then included in the prayers.
[ 09. December 2016, 12:42: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
What you Anglicans don' realise is that, for most Nonconformists, spoken notices are a liturgical necessity.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What you Anglicans don' realise is that, for most Nonconformists, spoken notices are a liturgical necessity.
Especially if they can be called "Intimations".
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I really like the idea of banns being included before the intercessions and then included in the prayers.
IIRC there is a specific place in the service book where the banns are to be read* which can't usually be moved. Whereas notices can be put wherever is convenient.
*although I vaguely recall once where they were forgotten and had to be tagged on somehow.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What you Anglicans don' realise is that, for most Nonconformists, spoken notices are a liturgical necessity.
Especially if they can be called "Intimations".
Only in Scotland. Or in an English URC church, provided it was formerly Presbyterian rather than Congregational.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
At my church they have plumbed a new depth of horror for announcements. They have put them on video. It is a Hell undreamed of by Dante.
The upside: it is, dimly and briefly, more amusing. You can post them on the church web site. They can be reviewed. They are more memorable.
The down side: Oh Jesus, have mercy upon us your poor suffering sheep. Church staffers mugging for the video camera, trying to dream up a new gimmick every week. Children, raked up to recite meeting times. I said they were more memorable; this is not a good thing. We have seen the enemy, and he is us.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is no "right place" for announcements.
I've seen them given before the service starts, where this means the canon giving the notices at the advertised start time of the service, but then leaving the front and returning to the vestry to the sounds of organly noodling, followed by brief silence, then processing in to the first hymn.
That's pretty much our practice, minus the "returning to the vestry" part. The minister takes a seat near the font, since that is the place from which she will speak immediately after that first hymn. The announcements are coupled with a welcome.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What you Anglicans don' realise is that, for most Nonconformists, spoken notices are a liturgical necessity.
I once recommended removing any spoken announcements from the service by putting them on a newsletter to be shared at the beginning of services. From the reaction I received you would have thought I was suggesting that we start sacrificing goats in lieu of the eucharist.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Notices are in the newsletter, the magazine, and given out from the front, but people still say they didn't know that events were happening. Complaints about starting the service late due to the time the notices take are matched by the complaints when they are not given out at all.
I think it better to leave verbal notices out altogether, unless it's something extraordinary. If people miss the newsletter deadline, don't reward it with a special notice.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
At my church they have plumbed a new depth of horror for announcements. They have put them on video. It is a Hell undreamed of by Dante.
I have never seen that ... and it sounds awful.
Having them presented while people come in as a rolling Powerpoint presentation is, however, not uncommon in UK Baptist churches nowadays.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Gosh ... but wasn't the OP about what would put you off from setting foot inside a church in the first place?
Surely, the way they do the announcements (at the beginning, before the service starts at our parish, BTW ...) isn't going to be a deal breaker before you set foot inside the building or meeting hall?
It might put you off a return visit, but surely in and of themselves the announcements aren't going to deter you in the first instance?
It seems a long time ago ... but from what I gathered from Sipech's OP was the idea of what would deter us from visiting in the first place.
He cited exotic forms of theology - notably British Israelitism - as a deterrent, and also, in his case, not wanting to set foot anywhere where they believed in Transubstantiation - which rules out all RC parishes and some Anglican ones.
The OP and subsequent tat references didn't, I think, distinguish between those who hold to Transubstantiation in the RC sense or those who do believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist but who don't understand it in quite those same terms ...
So notices strike me as coming way down the list.
'I'm going to visit that church, they have a Power-Point presentation with scrolling notices ...' is less likely, to my mind, than, 'Blimey! I went to that church on Sunday and they had this awful scrolling Power-Point thing ... I'm not going back there again ...'
Or worse, 'Blimey! They've got a dreadful cheesy video for the notices!'
There wouldn't be that many churches in the UK that are so well-resourced that they could stoop to that level of iniquity.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, we do seem to have got off the point of the OP!
Richard Giles, in Re-pitching The Tent is quite forthright about the unwelcoming aspect of the exterior of many churches, i.e. what you see before you make a move towards going in...iron railings, padlocked gates, tatty noticeboards, a fast-closed solid door, flights of slippery stone steps etc. etc.
Many of these things can be dealt with and improved, though in some cases much £££ might have to be spent. It behoves clergy, PCCs etc. to now and then take a look at how their church might appear to a chance passer-by (who may very well be an Angel Of The Lord...).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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