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Source: (consider it) Thread: What puts you off from setting foot inside a church?
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What you Anglicans don' realise is that, for most Nonconformists, spoken notices are a liturgical necessity.

If there's nothing really going on, do you make something up to fill the space?

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mdijon
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For a moment I thought that was a philosophical questioning of the basis for Christianity.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What you Anglicans don' realise is that, for most Nonconformists, spoken notices are a liturgical necessity.

If there's nothing really going on, do you make something up to fill the space?
At the very least, you announce the place and time of next week's service, even if it's exactly the same as this week's.
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Baptist Trainfan
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Two replies.

1. In many Baptist churches it used to be the custom to announce the total of the previous week's offerings ("Your tithes and offerings brought into the Lord's House last Sunday amounted to £159.17p"). I haven't come across this for years - I think Gift Aid, Standing Orders and Direct Debits have (thankfully) killed it off!

The Church Secretary would also offer a "word of welcome": "It is a joy and a privilege to welcome new faces to our service today, and we look forward to shaking hands with them afterwards. Our service this morning is conducted by our own Minister, the Reverend James Bloggs. At the close of the service we gather round the Lord's Table to remember his dying love" (you have to get the intonation right to savour this properly).

2. On the philosophical point: at one stage in my missionary career in Africa I had to "produce" a weekly service that was broadcast live on the national radio network. I always told participants to get into place before their "slot", but on one occasion a reader took a long time to get from their seat at the back of the church to the microphone. This led to a 30-second silence - an age on radio where you can't see what's going on!

Afterwards I told the service leader that he had to keep talking to fill any such gaps. Not unreasonably he replied by saying that he had nothing to say! I said that that was irrelevant - he needed to fill the space otherwise there was a real possibility that the plug would be pulled on our live feed to the transmitter.

[ 10. December 2016, 08:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
In many Baptist churches it used to be the custom to announce the total of the previous week's offerings ("Your tithes and offerings brought into the Lord's House last Sunday amounted to £159.17p"). I haven't come across this for years

Would you believe this is still common in many churches in Africa. Including RC and Anglican churches!

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Would you believe this is still common in many churches in Africa. Including RC and Anglican churches!

I have heard both an announcement about the previous week's offering and a welcome from the secretary very recently in Baptist churches I've visited here in South Wales.

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arse

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If there's nothing really going on, do you make something up to fill the space?

Our announcements are at the beginning, so a welcome to newcomers/guests, a request to sign the guest book, an invitation to the coffee hour after the service, and a reminder to turn off your phones.

Unfortunately, there are almost always several other announcements -- which are usually repeats of the printed announcements that no one reads (and which they've probably received by email as well).

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
"It is a joy and a privilege to welcome new faces to our service today, and we look forward to shaking hands with them afterwards."

How do you shake hands with a face?
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Baptist Trainfan
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I was hoping someone would spot that! [Cool]

[ 10. December 2016, 14:13: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

1. In many Baptist churches it used to be the custom to announce the total of the previous week's offerings ("Your tithes and offerings brought into the Lord's House last Sunday amounted to £159.17p"). I haven't come across this for years - I think Gift Aid, Standing Orders and Direct Debits have (thankfully) killed it off!

Among the churches that I would normally attend that info, plus last week's attendance, gets placed on a notice board in the front of the building facing the congregation.
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
"It is a joy and a privilege to welcome new faces to our service today, and we look forward to shaking hands with them afterwards."

How do you shake hands with a face?
In the case of pedantic gits they get a hand to the face instead. [Devil]

[ 10. December 2016, 16:03: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Notices are in the newsletter, the magazine, and given out from the front, but people still say they didn't know that events were happening. Complaints about starting the service late due to the time the notices take are matched by the complaints when they are not given out at all.

I think it better to leave verbal notices out altogether, unless it's something extraordinary. If people miss the newsletter deadline, don't reward it with a special notice.

We found that people didn't read the newsletter, despite it coming by email on Thursday and also given out in pape form on Sunday.

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Baptist Trainfan
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We have had things put in both the church magazine and weekly pewsheet, announced verbally in church and perhaps even emailed round - yet people still say, "We never knew"!!!
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Bishops Finger
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Let them be cast, therefore, into outer and unknowing darkness. You can do no more...

[Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
What will put me off is an extremely long period of announcements. Some churches have an announcement period before worship begins, others will have them at the end. Some even do them in the middle of the service.

The ones in the middle of the service, to me, sounds like a commercial break.

I've heard it said that the notices aren't a 'break' from worship, but actually a part of it. This is my own feeling too. I'm not keen on churches putting them at the beginning in order to 'get them out of the way', as it were; IMO the broader life of the church is something that our time of worship should acknowledge and celebrate.

But I can imagine that some people find this off-putting, especially if they feel that worship is a special zone, set apart from the more mundane aspects of church life.

Talking about mundane, I've been put off from setting foot inside a church because I couldn't find the right door....

[ 10. December 2016, 22:56: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Gramps49
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Re: Not finding the right door. That has happened at our church. We have a side door that actually faces the public street, but the public street terminates at our parking lot, so just driving into the parking lot you should find the front door. That is not always the case, though.

The reason why I put down announcements--or notices--is that for many visitors they are basically inside news Nothing makes you feel like an outsider than when one hears inside information, IMHO. I know if I had been a new visitor I would not have wanted to come back again.

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Teekeey Misha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Gosh ... but wasn't the OP about what would put you off from setting foot inside a church in the first place?

Surely, the way they do the announcements (at the beginning, before the service starts at our parish, BTW ...) isn't going to be a deal breaker before you set foot inside the building or meeting hall?

If I'd heard:
(a) that they have a ten minute break in the middle of worship in which someone reads the notices from the weekly sheet (which I'm quite capable of reading myself, thank you) or
(b) that they have a ten minute break in the middle of worship in which someone reads the notices because they don't have a weekly sheet
then I wouldn't set foot inside the building in the first place. Does that satisfy your inner pedant? [Two face]

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Misha
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Gosh ... but wasn't the OP about what would put you off from setting foot inside a church in the first place?

For years, it was the way I was treated by "Christians" my own age. Both at high school, and when I was dragged to my grandmother's church (before I refused to go).

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Bishops Finger
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Good point - it may indeed not be anything your local church has or has not done, or is or is not doing, that puts you off entering its gates (if you can find them), but simply your previous personal experience of 'Christians'.

A shame, if that's the case... [Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Raptor Eye
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What put me off of going to any church at all in the past was firstly that I had other things to do on a Sunday, and didn't want to change my routine, and also that I had swallowed the urban myths which said you could be a Christian without going to church, and that they were only after money.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:


The reason why I put down announcements--or notices--is that for many visitors they are basically inside news Nothing makes you feel like an outsider than when one hears inside information, IMHO. I know if I had been a new visitor I would not have wanted to come back again.

In that case, we'd better stop bidding intercessions for anyone who's not generally well known.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The reason why I put down announcements--or notices--is that for many visitors they are basically inside news Nothing makes you feel like an outsider than when one hears inside information, IMHO. I know if I had been a new visitor I would not have wanted to come back again.

Using terminology that is unfamiliar to outsiders is also unhelpful. Ask them to sign the guest book by the entrance rather than in the narthex, for example.

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~Tortuf

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Using terminology that is unfamiliar to outsiders is also unhelpful. Ask them to sign the guest book by the entrance rather than in the narthex, for example.

It's strange that. I get the impression that as a word 'narthex' is used much more on the west side of the Atlantic than the east. It's almost unknown here.

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Angloid
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I'm fairly familiar with the term. But most English churches don't have one: the entrance porches are to north and south (liturgically speaking). I think west doors, and hence narthexes, are more common across the pond.
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Teekeey Misha
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think west doors, and hence narthexes, are more common across the pond.

[Confused] It strikes me as rather odd that you should think west doors rare in the UK. I don't think they are at all. It is less common (but certainly far from rare) for churches, particularly cathedral churches, here to have a narthex too. Certainly, the finest and most beautiful cathedral* in the land has a narthex.

*Lincoln

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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.

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Pigwidgeon

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My mentioning "entrance" rather than "narthex" was just supposed to be an example of using terminology that a newcomer might understand rather than obscure, churchy terms.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
My mentioning "entrance" rather than "narthex" was just supposed to be an example of using terminology that a newcomer might understand rather than obscure, churchy terms.

Much of what is said in churches is in obscure, churchy terms, for whatever reason.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Galloping Granny
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

Something I have learned about announcements--the longer they are the lesser the people remember.

This also applies to sermons.

GG

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Much of what is said in churches is in obscure, churchy terms, for whatever reason.

It strikes me that there are two different kinds of mystery connected with worship. First, we have the mystery of the divine, which we try to distil in words, music and liturgy but which must inevitably remain as God in all his glory is ultimately incomprehensible to finite human minds. Second, we have the mystery of the church with all its strange phraseology and customs, familiar t the cognoscenti but off-putting to the outsider?

And dare I say that Jesus was very good at both displaying the first kind of mystery and cutting through the traditions of the second?

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Jengie jon

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I beg to differ specialised language is a factor of all subcultures, somewhere between a dialect and idiolect. A gym-goer may talk of 'presses' and 'leg curls' and be totally weird to the new person. The answer is, not that need to lose the language, but they need to explain it. That is part of being welcoming and helps someone new feel they are being accepted.

What is more the biggest danger in trying to speak in common language is that we distort the meaning of common words to fit concepts within the culture of the congregation and so by mislead those from the outside. As a statistician, I rue the individuals who first applied the terms 'normal' and 'significant' to their technical meaning within statistics. These applications disable communication rather than help it.

Jengie

[ 13. December 2016, 09:11: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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Gee D
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I don't disagree with you Jengie Jon, but context, context. If you're speaking to your servers and lay assistants, to say narthex is quite acceptable; if your audience is a group at a local service club (Rotary, Apex etc) porch is probably better - not strictly accurate, but better.

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Jengie jon

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Not really, the insistence on using common language rather than contextual is an insistence that they are not part of the community. The more open you are with the contextual language, the more open the community of that context appears. People are not fools, they know it exists and when they do not hear it, they think that you are hiding it so as to keep them away from it. Doing so creates the idea that the language is somehow spiritually superior or in the extreme a 'Sacred Language' that has to be kept from those who do not belong for issues of purity.

I am not saying we should use deliberately obscure language but that we should not be afraid to use the normative language within the congregational setting. We just need to be willing to explain it.

Jengie

[ 13. December 2016, 09:56: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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Gee D
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Are you then suggesting an educational role - the speaker says that there is an impressive stained glass window in what we call the narthex, which you might think of as a sort of porch.

[ 13. December 2016, 10:10: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Baptist Trainfan
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I love the precise use of language and have a great deal of sympathy with what Jengie says. (One of my pet hates is the use of the word "literally" - such as in, "The noise was so loud that it literally split my head in two" - really?) I also despise the "dumbing-down" of everything in the name of "relevance" - as she rightly says, people are not stupid and like to be treated with respect.

Nevertheless I think that churches must recognise that they are a "minority interest" in a largely secular society and do need to explain difficult concepts in ways that people understand. For instance, some time ago I preached a sermon on the "Yet, but not yet" hope within Advent. Underlying it all ( as my wife correctly discerned) was the word "proleptic" - but I never used it. It would have been entirely appropriate within academe or even - perhaps - a home Bible study group, but not in the context of Sunday morning worship.

Our faith is for everyone; and we must be careful to not give the impression that the Church is just another specialised in-group. I submit again that Jesus succeeded in talking about God in ways which were intriguing, accurate and accessible. After all, in Matthew 7 we read of him telling a parable and the people being astounded because he did not teach like the scribes and Pharisees.

And - a suitably seasonal thought! - doesn't 'incarnation' mean that we have to live among ordinary people and speak their language in order to reveal God?

[ 13. December 2016, 10:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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P.S. to above: do we somehow harbour the thought that churchy language is more "dignified" or "reverent" than ordinary speech? If so, why?
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Gamaliel
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My experience has been that there is just as much, if not more, 'insider' language in apparently more informal church settings as there is in the older traditions.

I agree with Jengie Jon. We should use the language that is normative within whatever faith community and tradition we are operating within, but be willing to explain it.

I'm not suggesting we use rarefied or hi-falutin' terms for the sake of it, but it's just as irritating to hear clergy/church leaders adopting a kind of faux-street speech as it is to hear a parsonical or overly 'elevated' voice.

My brother-in-law moved to a new city a while back and they did the rounds of the churches in their area. They were expecting to end up in a large and lively setting but gradually gravitated towards their small, friendly local Methodist church.

Why? Because they were quickly put off by the somewhat affected style of some of the young preachers at the large and lively churches they sampled.

'Jesus was hangin' and chillin' with his mates, right? Yeah? And this guy comes up to him, yeah? And he's like, "Hey Jesus ..."...'

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Whereas in the Methodist chapel the preaching was direct and practical, wore its learning lightly and whilst not scintillating (or even theologically sound) every week it was at least pitched in a way that didn't set their teeth on edge.

Obviously, with the circuit system the range and quality varies, from the dire to the thought-provoking and insightful or inspiring. My brother-in-law has started supporting various relief/humanitarian causes as a result of hearing sermons there that allude to some of these issues.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Teekeey Misha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Are you then suggesting an educational role - the speaker says that there is an impressive stained glass window in what we call the narthex, which you might think of as a sort of porch.

I'd suggest exactly that - an educational role (but possibly not in the words you use as an example!) Not just narthices either, we should educate people about all the "churchy" language we use rather than stop using the language.
Comparison: when I was a school chaplain, a teacher in our prep school complained about the music I'd chosen for the whole school carol service because "my children don't know what old-fashioned words mean." The simple answer? "You're their teacher. Teach them what they mean." If we stop using particular language because some people don't understand it, we'd end up using no language at all. Making language "more accessible" needn't mean dumbing down; teaching people the meaning of language with which they unfamiliar is making that language more accessible.
(I also recall being a prep school boy and singing "There is a green hill." The teacher said that "without a city wall" means "outside a city wall" but was very old-fashioned and confusing so we were going to sing "outside" instead. Even as an 8-year-old, I thought, "How silly! Now you've told us, we know what it means so there's no need to change it." It nurtured within me the lifelong knowledge that adults are most peculiar creatures.)

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
P.S. to above: do we somehow harbour the thought that churchy language is more "dignified" or "reverent" than ordinary speech? If so, why?

To an extent, I think we do. There are some moments when the vernacular feels appropriate in worship and some moments when it doesn't (as it does in all areas of life.) I have certainly always used a mixture of both, often in the same service.
Is it more reverent? Not in or of itself, but it feels more "appropriate" sometimes and behaving in a manner that feels appropriate is, I guess, a form of reverence.

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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not suggesting we use rarefied or hi-falutin' terms for the sake of it, but it's just as irritating to hear clergy/church leaders adopting a kind of faux-street speech as it is to hear a parsonical or overly 'elevated' voice.

Absolutely. Some Baptists are very good at it. Conversely, I've been accused of "sounding too posh to be Baptist"!
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SvitlanaV2
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I think we live in such a diverse society that expecting some random church to appeal to everyone is to hope for too much.

Some people will prefer more formality and others less, etc. So ideally we have to be able to maintain different kinds of churches

There are plenty of churches I wouldn't choose to attend, but that doesn't mean other people won't or shouldn't set foot in them.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, but the OP asked which ones we wouldn't set foot in, it didn't suggest that other people shouldn't.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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SvitlanaV2
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Gamaliel

True, but at several points the conversation has drifted onto more general comments about what puts people or particular categories of people off entering churches. E.g. the very second post implies that carrying out research among prospective attenders might be a good idea. That obviously goes beyond giving personal impressions of particular churches.

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I have seen notices outside churches which advertise eg 10am John Smith, and no other details are given

As you say, it's quite common amongst nonconformist churches which stress the preaching tradition.
[...]

But I've always found it a strange notion - what does it mean to the passer-by? We, however, do promulgate the service's theme each week.


My old church used to do it, but it was stopped for what seemed like two reasons: the minister felt, as you do, that passers-by would no longer find it meaningful; and someone else said the custom encouraged the undesirable habit of some individuals to attend or skip worship depending on who was due to preach....

Myself, I think the more information that churches give about themselves, on noticeboards and elsewhere, the better. And these days the uninitiated can hit Google to find out more about 'John Smith' if they want to - but only if they know his name.

Some churches don't even put services times on their noticeboards. I had to go to such a church once, but certainly wouldn't have made the effort otherwise. If they're so suspicious of strangers why would I impose myself on them!?

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Some churches don't even put services times on their noticeboards. I had to go to such a church once, but certainly wouldn't have made the effort otherwise. If they're so suspicious of strangers why would I impose myself on them!?

Or the service times listed will be wrong because no one thought to change the notice board when the service schedule changed ten years ago.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Or the service times listed will be wrong because no one thought to change the notice board when the service schedule changed ten years ago.

There is a church near here which has the unusual service time of 10.40 am. Allegedly this is a throwback to the bus timetable of decades ago.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
P.S. to above: do we somehow harbour the thought that churchy language is more "dignified" or "reverent" than ordinary speech? If so, why?

In a resonant acoustic, traditional church texts well spoken bestow a certain beauty, with all the Anglo-Saxon directness and poetic sensibilities, and all the voiced th's tend to soften the sound. For me, at least. It's the voice of the solid past speaking to us moderns beaten down by banality.

I don't insist on attending worship in Tudor-style English, but I do appreciate it and even our modern rites' lack of everyday empty phrases.

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Galloping Granny
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Some random responses:

I too was puzzled as a small child by 'without a city wall'. I figured it out when I was older.

It is only in recent years when hanging out on the Ship that I've encountered the word 'narthex' and even then it was a while before I'd figured it out. We have a vestibule in our Presbyterian church.

As for language, it's great that one can go to Bible Gateway and choose the most effective translation of the passage you're going to read, or have read. But I must say a word for a late member of the church where I contribute as a lay preacher. I knew that if I asked him to do a reading it he would use the King James version, so if my text was one of the passages that are pure poetry there – especially in Gordon's West Country voice – then he was the one to read.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Bishops Finger
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Baptist Trainfan's note about an odd service starting time makes me wonder to what extent the timing of worship may be off-putting.

I'm no longer a morning person, and for me 1030am is about as early as I can manage - 11am or 1115am would be better...I am told (by a former student) that even as late as 1115am is too early for most students!

In our Deanery, starting times of the main (or in some cases, only) Sunday service are 930am (2), 10am (3), 1015am (1), 1030am (3), and 11am (3).

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:


In our Deanery, starting times of the main (or in some cases, only) Sunday service are 930am (2), 10am (3), 1015am (1), 1030am (3), and 11am (3).

IJ

With the shortage of clergy and consequent doubling up of parishes this is often inevitable. And some people do prefer an early start. A previous parish had their only Sunday service at 9.30, and this was a city-centre church to which most of the congregation commuted a fair distance: it meant they had the best part of the day free afterwards.
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Bishops Finger
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Indeed, and four of the churches in our Deanery still have a weekly 8am or 830am service (by no means all of which are BCP...).

I was merely speculating as to whether the service times might contribute to a decision as to which church to attend, especially in these days of Sunday Sport and Shopping. None of the churches in my area, AFAIK, offer a Sunday afternoon service on a weekly basis, for instance, apart from the Cathedral's Evensong at 315pm.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Brenda Clough
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Our church offers a Sunday 5pm service which is very popular among the younger set. Rising even at noon (on a weekend) is impossible for them.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Pancho
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It's very common for Catholic parishes to have an anticipated Sunday Mass on Saturday afternoons (the so-called "vigil Mass"). It's somewhat less common to have one on Sunday afternoon but the larger or busier parishes usually have one. A neighboring parish has one at 7 p.m. Sunday night that I used to attend all the time. It's taken for granted that there should be a daily Mass the rest of the week and usually/often (but not always) there is in most parishes. My parish even has them twice a day during the week. Morning in English and afternoon in Spanish.

It's been my observation that when Mass times are cancelled or moved around attendance often drops. If the remaining times are difficult or inconvenient people don't always go but it seems to me a lot of priests and parish liturgy committees haven't caught on to this.

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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