|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Life in prison at hard labour for Denver shooter
|
Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
|
Posted
Do you think that the homicidal maniac in Colorado should get life in prison at hard labour? Shouldn't his parents get the same punishment for raising such an evil son? That's what I think. Discuss.
--------------------
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Do you think that the homicidal maniac in Colorado should get life in prison at hard labour? Shouldn't his parents get the same punishment for raising such an evil son? That's what I think. Discuss.
I'm sure the Prophet Samuel would agree - it's clearly the fault of the parents when the sons commit evil acts.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
|
Posted
I'm presuming his is mentally ill.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Ohfergoshsakes. SAMUEL had rotten kids too, but wasn't blamed for them. You'd need pretty clear proof before daring to blame parents.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Ohfergoshsakes. SAMUEL had rotten kids too, but wasn't blamed for them. You'd need pretty clear proof before daring to blame parents.
I take it I'm not the only who's been using the Old Testament readings at Morning Prayer, then?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
chive
Ship's nude
# 208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I'm presuming his is mentally ill.
Yes, because violence and mental illness is always linked. No wonder people with mental illnesses are completely stigmatised. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
--------------------
'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
|
Posted
Give me a fucking break.I did not say violence and mental illness are always linked. I wonder given the OP whether this discussion is better held it Hell.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Do you think that the homicidal maniac in Colorado should get life in prison at hard labour?
How about we have a trial before we talk about the sentence?
quote:
Shouldn't his parents get the same punishment for raising such an evil son? That's what I think.
Seriously? If one of your kids went off the rails and committed a serious crime, how would you feel about it if people started talking about how much time you should do it prison? How about every time one of your kids gets a traffic ticket you also have to pay the same fine? After all, it must be your fault if they can't obey the law - you raised them.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
catthefat
Shipmate
# 8586
|
Posted
Only someone who is mentally ill or very disturbed would do such a thing. Might be the parent's fault, or might not.
Posts: 143 | From: nottingham uk | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
i) What RuthW says about the guy that has been arrested. And if he is tried, ensure he's the person who should be standing trial.
ii) Who's to say the person who committed these acts is evil? Can you explain why we should punish the parents too?
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
|
Posted
while parents *fuck you up* (Larkin) - and there is an argument to be made over that -visiting the sins of the children on their parents is as debatable as visiting the sins of the fathers on the sons, which is to say *not at all*
--------------------
“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Do you think that the homicidal maniac in Colorado should get life in prison at hard labor?
The person or persons who did this will probably get the max, whatever that is, under Colorado law if he or they get to trial. All we have right now is a person accused of it.
quote:
Shouldn't his parents get the same punishment for raising such an evil son?
I don't believe my parents should be blamed for what I have done.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
If he's really mentally ill he needs treatment, but should probably still spend the rest of his life in an institution.
Even if he isn't, just life in prison without parole. There's no reason whatsoever to use the death penalty on anyone in this country.
As for punishing the parents, that's a really, really evil idea. Punishing family members for the crimes of relatives is what regimes like North Korea do.
[ 20. July 2012, 19:34: Message edited by: Unreformed ]
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
...visiting the sins of the children on their parents is as debatable as visiting the sins of the fathers on the sons, which is to say *not at all*
I was just throwing a point of view out there re: the parents. I am not saying I agreed with it unequivocally ! I do feel that murderers should be housed in the worst of all possible prisons and forced to break rocks or some other sort of extreme hard labour; don't execute them - make them wish they'd never been born instead!
--------------------
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
...visiting the sins of the children on their parents is as debatable as visiting the sins of the fathers on the sons, which is to say *not at all*
I was just throwing a point of view out there re: the parents. I am not saying I agreed with it unequivocally ! I do feel that murderers should be housed in the worst of all possible prisons and forced to break rocks or some other sort of extreme hard labour; don't execute them - make them wish they'd never been born instead!
Punishment shouldn't be about revenge or making the life of the accused "miserable", but about protecting others against a dangerously violent person by removing him from society. Prison should certainly be austere, but not psychologically unbearable or needlessly cruel.
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Agreed. For a start, it's really stupid to lump all murderers in the same boat. Is the perpetrator of the Colorado shootings on the same moral ground as the wife who endures years of physical abuse, suddenly snaps one day, grabs a kitchen knife that's to hand and kills her abusive spouse? I think not.
To carry on with, I've met more than a few murderers plus people who were party to a death in questionable circumstances. In my judgement, virtually all of them express regret for what they did. About the only exceptions are participants in organised crime.
Prison is debilitating enough as it is without making it needlessly inhumane.
[ 20. July 2012, 20:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
Aside from the irrationality of his actions, this photo gives me the impression that he was mentally unstable.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Ohfergoshsakes. SAMUEL had rotten kids too, but wasn't blamed for them. You'd need pretty clear proof before daring to blame parents.
God's kids have messed up a lot. Sue Him.
As for the sick dude in question -- he's either evil-sick or crazy-sick, pick one - it may be that a structured lifetime of scheduled activities would be good for him.
'Course if we off 'im, we won't have to pay for his upkeep, and he won't ever hurt anyone again.
Lots of factors to consider.
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Yes, lots of factors to consider.
Dare I raise the apparent ease by which people can secure guns in the US as one factor that might be worth considering, too?
(Waits while our US friends gang up to defend the Second Amendment come what may ...)
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chive
Ship's nude
# 208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Aside from the irrationality of his actions, this photo gives me the impression that he was mentally unstable.
Moo
Yes, you can tell whether someone has a mental illness from a photo.
I cannot believe how ignorant some people are.
--------------------
'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
(Waits while our US friends gang up to defend the Second Amendment come what may ...)
Just this morning my daughter and I concluded about the only hope at this point is for the Government to STRONGLY encourage all the existing sane handgun owners to get their Concealed Carry Permits, practice much with their pistol and then never leave home without them.
A couple of these maniacal homicidal perps being dropped in their tracks before they can squeeze the trigger a second time might have a deterrent effect on future massacres.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
Or not. Ever heard of "suicide by cop"?
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
chive
Ship's nude
# 208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Aside from the irrationality of his actions, this photo gives me the impression that he was mentally unstable.
Moo
Yes, you can tell whether someone has a mental illness from a photo.
I cannot believe how ignorant some people are.
Sorry hosts, I probably reacted too personally in purg. I've started a thread
below.
--------------------
'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Ohfergoshsakes. SAMUEL had rotten kids too, but wasn't blamed for them. You'd need pretty clear proof before daring to blame parents.
I take it I'm not the only who's been using the Old Testament readings at Morning Prayer, then?
I'm a Lutheran. I picked the story up the hard way--by reading the book. Unless you're not actually trying to be sarky, in which case I apologize.
[ 20. July 2012, 23:07: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 205:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
(Waits while our US friends gang up to defend the Second Amendment come what may ...)
Just this morning my daughter and I concluded about the only hope at this point is for the Government to STRONGLY encourage all the existing sane handgun owners to get their Concealed Carry Permits, practice much with their pistol and then never leave home without them.
A couple of these maniacal homicidal perps being dropped in their tracks before they can squeeze the trigger a second time might have a deterrent effect on future massacres.
Uh-huh. According to the report on the BBC, the alleged gunman was wearing body armour.
I'm far from convinced that a shoot-out in a darkened cinema in these circumstances would have been any less disastrous than what actually happened, and, indeed, could have resulted in more casualties. AIUI, handguns are not very accurate at any significant distances (say from the back of the stalls to the screen) anyway.
But what would I know - as a Brit who cannot own/use a handgun even if he wanted to do so. And we all know how the UK banning of guns has eliminated gun crime!!
--------------------
Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
General deterrence, or sentencing or shooting an evil person to make an example of him/her, has no effect on the behaviour of others. None.
Issues of violence prediction and prevention are very complex, and simple answers will not solve complex questions.
As for parents to blame. I expect occasionally they are blameworthy, but only rarely. I'm thinking of the physician-nurse family I know, with 4 kids. One is a violence criminal, now sentenced to life. The others are professionals and no signs of anything amiss. Again, we cannot explain simply.
May I suggest having a look at [url=http://www.anglicanjournal.com/nc/other/news-items/article/exorcising-evil-lessons-from-the-fatal-shooting-in-taber-493. html]this priest's response to his son being shot to death at a school shooting?[/url]
[ 20. July 2012, 23:19: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Dare I raise the apparent ease by which people can secure guns in the US as one factor that might be worth considering, too?
Yes. A few folks with concealed carry may have offed him earlier in his attack.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
Remember that everything you are hearing from the media right now is probably 100% wrong in every detail except for the name of the shooter and the number dead. You think I'm kidding, but just remember Columbine and Matthew Shepard to name two examples. It took a year or so for the real story on both those incidents to come out, and they were both very different from what the media said they were. Add Katrina to that list too, actually.
[ 20. July 2012, 23:51: Message edited by: Unreformed ]
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
|
Posted
I think it is way to early to even be discussing this case. We have a criminal justice system in this country in which the person accused of this crime will be tried by a jury who we can hope will be given all the known correct information on which to make a decision It is not our job or the job of the media to try this case.
Eternal God, in whose perfect kingdom no sword is drawn but the sword of righteousness, no strength known but the strength of love, look down upon all those who morn in Colorado , and embrace them in your tender care.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Remember that everything you are hearing from the media right now is probably 100% wrong in every detail except for the name of the shooter and the number dead. You think I'm kidding, but just remember Columbine and Matthew Shepard to name two examples. It took a year or so for the real story on both those incidents to come out, and they were both very different from what the media said they were. Add Katrina to that list too, actually.
The "real story"??? Pray, enlighten us --
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Do you think that the homicidal maniac in Colorado should get life in prison at hard labour?
Just like Anders Breivik, you mean?...
In other words, the correct sentence depends on precisely just what he's done and why.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Remember that everything you are hearing from the media right now is probably 100% wrong in every detail except for the name of the shooter and the number dead. You think I'm kidding, but just remember Columbine and Matthew Shepard to name two examples. It took a year or so for the real story on both those incidents to come out, and they were both very different from what the media said they were. Add Katrina to that list too, actually.
The "real story"??? Pray, enlighten us --
I'll take Columbine as an example since its the most similar to this instance. The perpetrators intended for it to be more of a bombing than a shooting, the perpetrators were not bullied, nor loners, they did not target jocks or "popular kids" (nor, depending on the particular form of urban legend Christians or blacks), they had nothing to do with any "trench coat mafia", and they were not addicted to violent video games.
The media reported the exact opposite of ALL of the above as fact at the time when it was a combination of misrepresentations and urban legends.
Link
here.
The book mentioned in the article is a very good read on this subject.
[ 21. July 2012, 01:38: Message edited by: Unreformed ]
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Do you think that the homicidal maniac in Colorado should get life in prison at hard labour?
How about we have a trial before we talk about the sentence?
Just so, RuthW. Mebbe we should let a few facts come to the light of day, before we let loose our righteous judgement. quote:
Gamaliel throws out the inflammatory bait:
Waits while our US friends gang up to defend the Second Amendment come what may ...
You, sir, are a troll. In fact, an exemplar.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
Can't all the gun fetishists and gun control advocates shut their mouths for at least a FEW days before using a tragedy for their favorite political hobby horse?
The former are bothering me more than the latter though, with all this crap:
gun nut on
DUDE IF I WAS THERE, AND HAD A GUN, MAN, I WOULD HAVE BEEN ALL LIKE BOOM BOOM BOOM! PEW PEW PEW! I COULD GET 'EM WITH A HEADSHOT, CAUSE I'M SO MANLY.
/gun nut off
No, you wouldn't. At best, and I'm 99% sure this is what would happen, you'd cry for your mother and then piss your pants at the first shot.
At worst, you'd end up killing or wounding several innocent people while trying to play the hero. Just shut up already.
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
The thing that struck me most about this tragedy was that there were children (including a baby who was killed) at the movie for the midnight showing. What sort of irresposible parents would take kids to an M rated movie at that time of night?
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176
|
Posted
I thought the same thing, about taking very small children to a midnight movie. Don't mean the parents deserved that horror, but FFS, hire a babysitter.
--------------------
It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
I took chasee#1 to movies when she was really small. tiny babies have no real concept of time of day, they often sleep through, and getting babysitters can be tough and expensive.
that being said, movies nowadays are so loud, I'd never bring a baby in. I rarely can stand to bring myself in.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 205:
A couple of these maniacal homicidal perps being dropped in their tracks before they can squeeze the trigger a second time might have a deterrent effect on future massacres.
I think that someone who would not only plan this but carry it out is probably beyond registering realistic consequences to theirself--or caring.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by 205:
A couple of these maniacal homicidal perps being dropped in their tracks before they can squeeze the trigger a second time might have a deterrent effect on future massacres.
I think that someone who would not only plan this but carry it out is probably beyond registering realistic consequences to theirself--or caring.
Indeed. If the reports of the booby-trapped house/apartment are correct, this person doesn't look to have been intending to escape consequences. The concept of 'deterrent' only works for someone who hasn't narrowed down their choices to "die" or "get caught".
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Or not. Ever heard of "suicide by cop"?
He was wearing body armor, so suicide by cop was probably not the idea.
However, it's hard to see how the situation would have been improved by several dozen people people with concealed carry permits firing in the dark at everything they thought might be a a perp.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
(Waits while our US friends gang up to defend the Second Amendment come what may ...)
You shan't find that argument here!
The Second Amendment's true purpose was to allow the establishment of a "well-regulated militia", i.e. the National Guard, not to allow a bunch of lunatics to purchase unlimited supplies of deadly weapons.
(As for capital punishment, it is against my religion and when it is carried out, it accomplishes nothing!)
--------------------
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
However, it's hard to see how the situation would have been improved by several dozen people people with concealed carry permits firing in the dark at everything they thought might be a a perp.
Seriously. Suppose you were there, and had a gun. Now, imagine that, as soon as the guy comes in and starts shooting, the guy across the aisle from you pulls out a gun.
At least, you think it's a gun. It's dark and smoky. People are screaming and ducking down and moving around. The guy up front is still shooting. And the guy across the aisle stands up, and now you're sure it's a gun.
Is he trying to shoot the shooter? Or is he in league with the shooter? Is he a good guy or a bad guy?
How can you tell?
And how can he tell whether you are a good guy or a bad guy? Is he going to shoot the shooter, or is he going to shoot you?
And if he aims at you, is it because he's a bad guy, or because he thinks you're a bad guy?
If there were five, ten, twenty people there with guns, does anyone really think there would be fewer people dead?
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
And if he aims at you, is it because he's a bad guy, or because he thinks you're a bad guy?
Beautifully put. The entire problem in a nutshell. Seeing a person with a gun doesn't tell you, without more, whether they are an "aggressor" or a "defender".
And in fact this reminds me of Breivik again, because his method of attack was to present himself as a "defender". And indeed, there's evidence that in his own mind that's precisely what he WAS.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Re Josephine's comments:
Not to mention the *cops* trying to figure out who's who, when they arrive.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 205:
A couple of these maniacal homicidal perps being dropped in their tracks before they can squeeze the trigger a second time might have a deterrent effect on future massacres.
This statement is rubbish for several reasons, but let us stick to the deterrent issue.
The shooter was wearing body armour. He was prepared to be shot at.
Completely rational people do not commit such acts.
Someone wishing to kill people but avoid being killed will choose tactics accordingly. No amount of concealed carry would have stopped the Unibomber or the Beltway Sniper.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
For a more concrete example: there were at least two people carrying at the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. Neither was able to draw in time to stop Jared Loughner, and one of them nearly shot the guy who wrestled the gun away from him, because he heard the shots and by the time he looked in the right direction Loughner was on the ground and the other guy was holding the gun. Imagine a dark theater with people firing at muzzle flashes...
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
