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Originally posted by Ashworth:
Now that the new Roman Rite has been in use for over a year I wondered how widely it is now being used in anglo catholic parishes. The Bishop of London asked for Anglican rites to be used in his diocese but I do know of a number of London churches that are using the new Roman Rite.

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

The only other A-C parish in the area has, I am afraid, embraced the new Roman Rite - but most of their weekday Masses are now attended only by RCs who have left the C of E......

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Because otherwise they would have to put up with the Ordinariate's version of Anglican liturgy?

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Originally posted by Ashworth:
On more amusing note to end. I did recently hear the following said by a priest:
"I've spent all of my life in the Church of England pretending to be Roman, I am not now going to join the Ordinariate to become a Roman pretending to Church of England."

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Originally posted by Indifferently:
I find it quite amusing that in several places the new Roman translation is closer to 1662 than the old ecumenical formulae we all enthusiastically embraced in the latter part of the last century.

And with thy spirit!

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Originally posted by venbede:
What FiF ought to do is show the rest of the C of E how CW can be used in a catholic manner,

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Originally posted by Enoch:
What he can or should do if, as you allege, there are people who persist in disobeying their bishop's clear instructions,

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
No - there's no Ordinariate around here. They just don't seem to realise that (1) they're not Anglicans any more and (2) that they now have new masters......

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by Indifferently:
I find it quite amusing that in several places the new Roman translation is closer to 1662 than the old ecumenical formulae we all enthusiastically embraced in the latter part of the last century.

And with thy spirit!

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It's a great pity that the ecumenical consensus over liturgy has broken down. Clearly some of the 1970s translations have not worn well, and the new texts of Common Worship sound much more poetic and less pedestrian than the common texts which we still use (and which Rome did until recently). So CW too could benefit from a makeover, though not at the cost of importing the clunky latinisms of the new Roman Missal. If we'd had a joint team working on these texts (even before 2000) both churches might have had a better liturgy.

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Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The Orate Fratres uses sacrificial langauge. Though many Anglican churches have prayed this way over the years, they are Catholic concepts which have no place in Reformed Protestant tradition...

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

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Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The Orate Fratres uses sacrificial langauge. Though many Anglican churches have prayed this way over the years, they are Catholic concepts which have no place in Reformed Protestant tradition...

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This from a convert to Roman Catholicism! I mean no ad hominen jibe here, but please tend your own garden. At least show the post-convert grace to salt your language with an I would have thought or an It seems to this observer or, even, from my experience.

I don't intend to untangle your woeful Proper Anglican Theology must be both Reformed and Protestant Knot.

Suffice it to say that that requesting intercessory petition from all the saints and sacrificial language sit quite comfortably in my parish Anglican liturgy.


Let me also say that the idea of Anglicans using a Roman Catholic canon is just plain weird on this side of the Atlantic. Using their daily mass lectionary before we had our own was just plain prudent. But, the canon. Just plain bizarre. It seems to me.

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

In a perhaps typical Anglican fudge, we use the CW lectionary (rather than the Roman Ordo as previously) and the appropriate Redemptorist Sunday readings pew-sheet (i.e. the Anglican one!), together with a CW Eucharistic Prayer, but retain various Roman bits allowed (I believe) by Canon. That is to say ... the Peace immediately before Communion as opposed to just before the Offertory.

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Originally posted by PaulTH*:

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Originally posted by venbede:
What FiF ought to do is show the rest of the C of E how CW can be used in a catholic manner,

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It can't be! In spite of the ECCL convergence of language, the theology of the Roman Rite differs greatly from that of CW. Bishops Finger mentions that his parish includes the Confiteor and the Orate Fratres within an otherwise CW Mass, and he would like to see them replaced. The Confiteor asks for the intercession of the BVM, all the angels and saints, and brothers and sisters present. The Orate Fratres uses sacrificial langauge. Though many Anglican churches have prayed this way over the years, they are Catholic concepts which have no place in Reformed Protestant tradition, the latter being explicitly condemned in Article XXXI of the Articles of Religion.

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Though CW contains options which can create a certain "catholic" ambience, such as a an epiclesis in some of the Consecration Prayers, it is only a request for the Holy Spirit to come upon the community, not on the Bread and Wine. CW has no provision for asking for the intercessions of the saints nor praying for the dead, without borrowing from outside ie Catholic sources. So if you want to ditch all these Romish accreations as the Bishop of London has told his clergy they must, you can't graft a Catholic understanding of the Mass onto CW texts.

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grant that by the power of your Holy Spirit,
and according to your holy will,
these gifts of bread and wine
may be to us the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ;

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The Orate Fratres uses sacrificial langauge. Though many Anglican churches have prayed this way over the years, they are Catholic concepts which have no place in Reformed Protestant tradition, the latter being explicitly condemned in Article XXXI of the Articles of Religion.

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Originally posted by venbede:
Scrumps - well not straight CW so much as a permissible variation.

Jade C - I would be rather pleased to have a woman priest use the Roman Canon.

Orate Frates seemed extremely common when CW first came in.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Paul TH:

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The Orate Fratres uses sacrificial langauge. Though many Anglican churches have prayed this way over the years, they are Catholic concepts which have no place in Reformed Protestant tradition, the latter being explicitly condemned in Article XXXI of the Articles of Religion.

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I'd strongly disagree with this statement. It's sweeping and inaccurate, and not only does it ignore all the ecumenical statements of recent years, it also ignores developments within the worldwide Anglican Communion itself.

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Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
While it is always nice to point out that assent to the 39 Articles was not required of any Anglican layman, it was required of clergy, and it was an official, authoritative statement of the Church of England, in which doctrine was stated. It is difficult to overlook this fact, especially when it was included in the BCP (even before it was downgraded to the historical documents section).

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PREFACE
The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In the declaration you are about to make will you affirm your loyalty to this inheritance of faith as your inspiration and guidance under God in bringing the grace and truth of Christ to this generation and making him known to those in your care?

Declaration of Assent
I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorized (sic) or allowed by Canon.

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The doctrine of the Church of England is grounded in the Holy Scriptures, and in such teachings of the ancient Fathers and Councils of the Church as are agreeable to the said Scriptures. In particular such doctrine is to be found in the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer, and the Ordinal.

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I agree that in recent years Anglicans have been much more accepting of these, but historically this was not the case.

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I acknowledge, because this has been said many times on the Ship, that there are parts of the Anglican Communion who are adamant that the 39 Articles don't apply to them, but I still can't really see how one can legitimately argue that either in good faith or with historical credibility.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian
I'd strongly disagree with this statement. It's sweeping and inaccurate, and not only does it ignore all the ecumenical statements of recent years, it also ignores developments within the worldwide Anglican Communion itself .

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Originally posted by PaulTH*:
My only point is that all these things are imports from Catholicism, and don't belong within the Anglican Reformed tradition. Enoch has shown how canon C15 requires an acceptance of the very Protestant, Calvinist 39 Articles of Religion, many of which pour scorn on things I believe.

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The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In the declaration you are about to make will you affirm your loyalty to this inheritance of faith as your inspiration and guidance under God in bringing the grace and truth of Christ to this generation and making him known to those in your care?

Declaration of Assent

I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorized or allowed by Canon.

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Originally posted by Bax:
Anglo-papalists started what is now the week of prayer for Christian Unity, held every January.

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Pretty easily. The Scottish Episcopal Church has a parallel and distinct lineage from the Church of England. For all that the 1637 BCP was supported by Archbishop Laud it was written by the Scottish Bishops and does not feature the 39 Articles of Religion, which are an English only phenomenon. Churches in the Scottish Episcopal tradition, such as PECUSA, have no historical reason to rely on the 39 Articles as set out in the 1662 BCP. One of the (many) Scottish objections to the Anglican convenant was the insinuation that the 39 Articles bear witness to the historic faith of the church.

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Articles of Religion agreed upon in the Convocation holden at London in the year 1562 and referred to in Canon XII (1911) of the Episcopal Church in Scotland

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
PaulTH, you're basing your assumption that the 39 articles stand true for all time. Some parts of the Anglican Communion view the articles as a testament of faith 'of their time' and assent to hem on the basis that they are an historical document responding to corruption they felt needed changing...

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Originally posted by Enoch:

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Pretty easily. The Scottish Episcopal Church has a parallel and distinct lineage from the Church of England. For all that the 1637 BCP was supported by Archbishop Laud it was written by the Scottish Bishops and does not feature the 39 Articles of Religion, which are an English only phenomenon. Churches in the Scottish Episcopal tradition, such as PECUSA, have no historical reason to rely on the 39 Articles as set out in the 1662 BCP. One of the (many) Scottish objections to the Anglican convenant was the insinuation that the 39 Articles bear witness to the historic faith of the church.

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Far be it from me to trespass outside England, but are you sure this is not special pleading? I have an electronic copy of a Scottish Episcopal Prayer Book issued under the authority of the Bishop of Brechin in 1912 which includes the Articles, headed as follows:-

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Articles of Religion agreed upon in the Convocation holden at London in the year 1562 and referred to in Canon XII (1911) of the Episcopal Church in Scotland

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I accept that 1562 was long before even the Union of the Crowns. I also accept that I haven't got a copy of Canon 12 of 1911. But unless it clearly says 'The 39 Articles don't apply in Scotland and you are entitled to ignore them' or words to similar effect, I remain unpersuaded that Scotland is completely outside their scope, or that it's possible for people in other provinces to claim with integrity to be an Anglican without their applying to you at least in generality.

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Originally posted by PaulTH*:
...in the 19th century, altar candles, vestments and elevation of the host were considered so popish that they aroused persecutions.
My only point is that all these things are imports from Catholicism,

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Originally posted by Bax:
The logic of the ANglo-Papalist position (most of whom I suspect use the modren Roman Rite) is that the Church of England is the Catholic church in England, unwilling cut off from the rest of the "Western church" (as an anglo papaist may refer to the "Roman Catholic Church") at the English reformation.

This lead to liturgies being produced that, essentially was an English translation of the old Roman Rite (The English Missal). When Vatican II produced the modern Roman Rite, most Anglo-Papalists stopped using this and adopted the Modern Roman Rite (often along with other liturgical modernization).

Anglo-papalists started what is now the week of prayer for Christian Unity, held every January.

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I would agree that PaulTH sees the 39 Articles somewhat in that context. I also believe that one is entitled to that understanding whereby statements of faith--especially the doctrinal matter contained in the Articles--are understood to be true for all time. Otherwise, one has only to fudge.

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In other words, one either believes in the invocation of saints or one does not, simply because it either it is a theological possibility within the Church or it is not. Both propositions cannot be true, in any century. Likewise, the Mass is either the Holy Sacrifice for the remission of sins or it is not--regardless of the century. Purgatory either exists or it does not, in every century. And so on. These doctrines have either been true in every century or they have not. They cannot change. Not every Article is doctrinal; I realize, but enough of them contain doctrine that cannot change with time.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Ceremoniar:

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Likewise, the Mass is either the Holy Sacrifice for the remission of sins or it is not--regardless of the century.

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I think that's fair enough from a Roan Catholic perspective (although I'm left wondering if Limbo is still there), but from a Reformed perspective I think they do feel things can change, and in both senses - in the removal and in the restoration of ideas.

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Originally posted by Cornish High:
However, If Ashworth lived in a more rural diocese he might well find less use of the Missal than seems to be the case in many if not most C parishes in urban areas.

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Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Likewise, the Mass is either the Holy Sacrifice for the remission of sins or it is not--regardless of the century.

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The authors of the 39 articles did not, of course, believe that, but their teaching about the Eucharist can only be understood as a reaction against commonly held beliefs. As the mud has cleared over the centuries we are better able to discern the truth.

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Originally posted by Percy B:
That's interesting Thurible.

Are there any C of E parishes in London or beyond which use modern Roman Rite AND affirm women priests?

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