Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The problem some commentators note, though, is that immigrants themselves grow old and need care. They'll have fewer children, who will in any case become 'assimilated', thus becoming unwilling or unable do the jobs their parents did; so yet more immigrants will be needed.

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Posted                       

quote:

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'Remember what we started with in the UK: an economy built on the worst deficit, the most leveraged banks, the most indebted households, the biggest housing boom and unsustainable levels of public spending and immigration.'

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

Also, I thought it was pretty much widely accepted that the vast majority of new jobs created in Britain in the 2000s actually went to immigrants? (Some estimates put the figure at over 90%.) While that's not exactly 'they're nicking our jobs' one can see how it might create some degree of resentment.

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Posted                          

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Unemployment in the UK is currently just over two million people.

We have had threads on this board in which posters who suggest that those people should go out and get jobs are shouted down on the grounds that there simply aren't enough jobs out there for them all.

And yet the same people saying there aren't enough jobs for all the unemployed people will then turn up on threads such as this one and say that we need more people of working age in the country.

One or other of those arguments must, logically, be false. Either there are plenty of jobs (in which case it's perfectly valid to question why so many people don't want to do them), or there aren't enough jobs (in which case bringing in more immigrants is just going to increase the number of unemployed people in the country).

Which is it?

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Posted                          

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the farmer next door to me (anecdote coming up), just says that he employs East Europeans on the land, because the local English youths can't be arsed to bend their back picking the sugarbeet.

He also says that they prefer sitting in their bedroom playing X-box. Somehow, I doubt that, since you can't just draw unemployment pay these days, while sitting on your backside.

Still, it's a common opinion in Norfolk.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the farmer next door to me (anecdote coming up), just says that he employs East Europeans on the land, because the local English youths can't be arsed to bend their back picking the sugarbeet.

He also says that they prefer sitting in their bedroom playing X-box. Somehow, I doubt that, since you can't just draw unemployment pay these days, while sitting on your backside.

Still, it's a common opinion in Norfolk.

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It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the farmer next door to me (anecdote coming up), just says that he employs East Europeans on the land, because the local English youths can't be arsed to bend their back picking the sugarbeet.

He also says that they prefer sitting in their bedroom playing X-box. Somehow, I doubt that, since you can't just draw unemployment pay these days, while sitting on your backside.

Still, it's a common opinion in Norfolk.

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It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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But they've always used vans to bring labour in, as yes, there are no buses. 20 years ago, the field workers were all English. There is an argument that furriners accept lower wages, but I don't know about that. Presumably, they get the minimum wage, although you hear horror stories of lower wages.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Karl

So you are saying that it's cheaper for the gangmaster to use foreign labour? Yes, maybe that's correct. Some of them are housed in horrible huts and cabins, which probably English guys would not tolerate.

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Local observation: Since the weekend, various people seems to feel that they can be as openly verbally racist as they like. Last week this would not have been the case.

Is anyone else finding this?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Karl

So you are saying that it's cheaper for the gangmaster to use foreign labour? Yes, maybe that's correct. Some of them are housed in horrible huts and cabins, which probably English guys would not tolerate.

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Nor would they if they'd known that was what was meant by "accommodation and transport provided" on the ad they answered back in their original country. In some cases, at any rate.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Karl

So you are saying that it's cheaper for the gangmaster to use foreign labour? Yes, maybe that's correct. Some of them are housed in horrible huts and cabins, which probably English guys would not tolerate.

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Nor would they if they'd known that was what was meant by "accommodation and transport provided" on the ad they answered back in their original country. In some cases, at any rate.

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I was just thinking - low pay, shit conditions, no union membership, no holiday pay, no sick pay, instant dismissal - it's UKIP heaven, isn't it? O Brave New World.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Karl

So you are saying that it's cheaper for the gangmaster to use foreign labour? Yes, maybe that's correct. Some of them are housed in horrible huts and cabins, which probably English guys would not tolerate.

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Nor would they if they'd known that was what was meant by "accommodation and transport provided" on the ad they answered back in their original country. In some cases, at any rate.

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I was just thinking - low pay, shit conditions, no union membership, no holiday pay, no sick pay, instant dismissal - it's UKIP heaven, isn't it? O Brave New World.

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Why would UKIP want that if it means high immigration?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Why would UKIP want that if it means high immigration?

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Doug Saunders argues that the far-right gains are less impressive than they seem at first glance.

Basically, once you sweep away the media hype, most Eurpeans rejected the far-right, no other parties will work with them, and some of the anti-Europe vote actually went to the left. Or so Saunders argues.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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Yes, like I said earlier, in Germany travel passes are often given by the employer. My son had them for all his low paid jobs for tram, bus and train, it's also much much more bike -friendly there. If we gave travel passes to the unemployed we'd be getting somewhere imo. People simply can't afford to travel to minimum wage jobs.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was just thinking - low pay, shit conditions, no union membership, no holiday pay, no sick pay, instant dismissal - it's UKIP heaven, isn't it? O Brave New World.

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Posted                         

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Also, what's the issue with suggesting people could be racist - the vast majority of the UK population were until at least the latter part of the twentieth century - its not like you could throw a switch and change the attitudes of centuries overnight.

(I am struggling to understand on what basis you describe yourself as liberal btw.)

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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Yes, like I said earlier, in Germany travel passes are often given by the employer. My son had them for all his low paid jobs for tram, bus and train, it's also much much more bike -friendly there. If we gave travel passes to the unemployed we'd be getting somewhere imo. People simply can't afford to travel to minimum wage jobs.

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It does rather presuppose that there is a bus to use a travel pass on. Without any form of public transport a travel card is a worthless piece of paper.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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Yes, like I said earlier, in Germany travel passes are often given by the employer. My son had them for all his low paid jobs for tram, bus and train, it's also much much more bike -friendly there. If we gave travel passes to the unemployed we'd be getting somewhere imo. People simply can't afford to travel to minimum wage jobs.

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It does rather presuppose that there is a bus to use a travel pass on. Without any form of public transport a travel card is a worthless piece of paper.

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And since since Thatcher we've been labouring under the misapprehension that the primary purpose of running a bus company is to make money, rather than to provide public transport, most often there isn't one.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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Yes, like I said earlier, in Germany travel passes are often given by the employer. My son had them for all his low paid jobs for tram, bus and train, it's also much much more bike -friendly there. If we gave travel passes to the unemployed we'd be getting somewhere imo. People simply can't afford to travel to minimum wage jobs.

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It does rather presuppose that there is a bus to use a travel pass on. Without any form of public transport a travel card is a worthless piece of paper.

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And since since Thatcher we've been labouring under the misapprehension that the primary purpose of running a bus company is to make money, rather than to provide public transport, most often there isn't one.

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Goes back a wee bit further than that - I refer you to the Reshaping of Britain's Railways (1963); otherwise known around the bazaars as the Beeching Axe.

This was a bit like having a tripartite secondary school system, but never really building the third leg (technical schools).

Concomitant to the line closures was an assumption (on Beeching's part)/promise (on the government's) that all services on all closed lines would be replaced with bus routes.

Which didn't happen.

Even though buses were nationalised at the time.

Hence, whole areas which had rail links suddenly had no links (except private cars).

And the majority of closures happened through 1964, which makes the aftermath (and failure to do anything about it) Harold Wilson's fault. But then he closed more coal mines than Thatcher too....

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
I suspect that people who voted UKIP are more concerned about the (perceived) scale of immigration and (perceived) lack of integration (which, although discrete, are perhaps linked) than they are about the fact of immigration or indeed the race of the immigrants.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh look, my lack of surprise is depressing me.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If the government had acted properly on the architects of the economic collapse, who have largely got away scot-free with all our money and are still able to pay themselves vast wealth they've neither earned or created, then I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

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Posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh look, my lack of surprise is depressing me.

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Interesting observation about the survey in question - it doesn't have any indication of the ethnic breakdown of the respondents. Quite a glaring omission, I'd have said!

I point this out because here in the West Midlands, apparently the worst area for racism in the country, there is a not-insignificant amount of tension between the Asian (Pakistani/Indian rather than Chinese/Japanese) and Carribbean communities. I've heard some really nasty stuff being said by people from each of those communities about the other, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was responsible for a reasonable amount of the reported prejudice.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh look, my lack of surprise is depressing me.
Interesting observation about the survey in question - it doesn't have any indication of the ethnic breakdown of the respondents. Quite a glaring omission, I'd have said!

I point this out because here in the West Midlands, apparently the worst area for racism in the country, there is a not-insignificant amount of tension between the Asian (Pakistani/Indian rather than Chinese/Japanese) and Carribbean communities. I've heard some really nasty stuff being said by people from each of those communities about the other, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was responsible for a reasonable amount of the reported prejudice.


I agree it would be an issue, and probably one of the reasons for the support of UKIP by some people with an ethnic minority background.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Rupert Myers, a Guardian writer who seems to have have been somehow involved with left-of-centre campaigns in the election(though it's not clear in what capacity), argues that racism is of comparitively minor importance among the reasons for UKIP's electoral appeal.

He also makes the related observation that the UKIP's lack of support in London is not because London is more tolerant, but because it is more affluent.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:

Mysteriously it's the people living furthest from high density populations, and in the regions with fewest immigrants that are most likely to vote UKIP.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
One thought has also crossed my mind, is the UKIP avalanche in the Euro elections a flash in the pan or a genuine shift in the British political landscape?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Has anyone got a handy graphic as to how it might pan out if the results were repeated at a General Election?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Like this ?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Has anyone got a handy graphic as to how it might pan out if the results were repeated at a General Election?

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Well,

this might help Matt Black

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

The probability is a Labour majority in 2015 - but as they say a week is a long time in politics and well, a year, is an eternity away

Saul

--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."