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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Flags
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
The Dean is obviously a dodgy type ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The Salvation Army has lots of flags
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all. .
As do we at Choral Evensong (1662 Prayerbook) and on the occasions when we do the Litany.
A retired clerical acquaintance who has filled chaplaincies in the Mediterranean assures me that his congregations routinely prayed (depending on their location) for the King of Spain or the President of the French Republic. And in Oman, the mixed Anglican congregation prays for Qaboos our Sultan. *end ot tangent*
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Just thought I'd say I was in London this weekend, and saw a church that had the Union Flag flying in the open air.
It was a Congregational church. It had notices up outside declaring that the UK was in serious spiritual trouble, so the flag clearly wasn't there as a sign of the church's slavish admiration of the state....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Here in New York, I noticed many more churches displayed the US flag inside their sanctuaries after 9/11. It was not an endorsement of the government or military and more a sign of solidarity and perseverance in the face of such a tragedy. The flags have stayed, for the most part.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Gorgeous in gold. Sounds like a novel? Might make a change from Revelation, Zappa..
I've attended a few St John functions here in Sydney and lusted after those cloaks worn here I think by National Council members. Should check with my chaplain friend. Superfine wool and metre upon metre gathered at neck.
I looked through all the pics.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
Here in New York, I noticed many more churches displayed the US flag inside their sanctuaries after 9/11. It was not an endorsement of the government or military and more a sign of solidarity and perseverance in the face of such a tragedy. The flags have stayed, for the most part.
Sadly, we seem to have a flag-mania elsewhere for what I am pretty sure are not the best reasons. I don't go to churches like those.
(It's freaking everywhere, car sale lots, just everywhere, and seems to have a scary political tinge in some cases.)
[ 20. October 2014, 17:44: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
Ours have been moving, every so slightly each month, towards the side door of the chancel. Eventually they will be in the hallway and everyone will say they've always been in the hallway. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
This may sound Communist. But I got uncomfortable with all the flags in church post-9-11.
Even in Californicate, I visited a large church that projected a HUGE flag filling the entire wall behind the pulpit. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Sorry, but I go to church to worship God, not 'Merica.
Agreed on all counts. Apart from it sounding Communist; if anything it's the reverse, as many Communist countries tried to put the state in the place of God, so being troubled at that kind of political idolatry is quite non-Communist, or at least non-Stalinist.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.
I would bet my next paycheck that that church projects their songs instead of having songbooks or projects Bible verses instead of having people use the pew Bibles. This seems to be the next logical step.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I love the projected song verses. My eyesight is diminished, and those things are =visible= in the way that a printed page is not. And I trust that someone actually reads the Scripture lesson aloud? I do not care if it is projected if somebody reads it, but I could imagine a deaf person really being grateful.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
Our collection of nation flags disappeared a few weeks ago and instead we have a row of colourful clocks representing our mission partners, each set to the appropriate time. I rather like them, they are in rainbow colours and are set above the main door and are not obtrusive.
Mind you, we also have projected songs and verses ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 21. October 2014, 20:56: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.
I would bet my next paycheck that that church projects their songs instead of having songbooks or projects Bible verses instead of having people use the pew Bibles. This seems to be the next logical step.
What is this thing you call pew bible?
I know a ocuple of places that have t hem, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United CHurch of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- because the truly faithful are going to bring their own and the translations and pages will differ. ANd ANglicans are expected (whether wisely or not) to listen to Scripture as it is read.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
What is this thing you call pew bible?
I know a ocuple of places that have them, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United Church of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- ...
John things may be different in Canada, but pew Bibles are fairly widespread in the CofE, particularly, though by no means invariably, in churches that regard themselves to any extent as being evangelical.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
My own experience of evangelical churches, C of E and otherwise, is that the congregation bring their own bibles. These days that may well be on a kindle or tablet. St Helen's did expect us to look up verses but we were also expected to bring our own bible.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
What is this thing you call pew bible?
I know a ocuple of places that have t hem, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United CHurch of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- because the truly faithful are going to bring their own and the translations and pages will differ. ANd ANglicans are expected (whether wisely or not) to listen to Scripture as it is read.
Pew Bibles seem to be reasonably common in Episcopal churches in these parts, though perhaps they are more common in Presbyterian and United Methodist churches. I also know of Episcopal churches that include the full readings on bulletin inserts each week.
Baptists, in my experience, would be expected to bring their own Bibles to church.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Baptists, in my experience, would be expected to bring their own Bibles to church.
Yes, and they also have pew Bibles.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Pew Bibles seem to be reasonably common in Episcopal churches…. I also know of Episcopal churches that include the full readings on bulletin inserts each week.
My anglocatholic shack does both, but then the bibles are abridged, containing only the Old and the New testaments, leaving out the deuterocanon. We manage to soldier on somehow.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The black-majority Pentecostal churches in the UK expect worshippers to bring their own Bibles - usually the KJV, which is probably the cheapest and easiest version to buy.
The reason for this expectation seems to be that attenders will usually have to follow the Bible passages closely, and even make notes. There may be an all-age Sunday School which will require that attenders are ready to 'study'.
In mainstream churches, by contrast, the congregational use of Bibles during worship is mostly optional. There's also no guarantee that the individual actually owns a copy of the modern translation that the church uses, so it makes sense for the church to provide them.
[ 24. October 2014, 01:44: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I think the note taking bit is important to this, in churches where people take notes during the sermon (common in some evangelical circles like the NFI I attend and St H I mentioned earlier) the congregation generally bring the bible they feel comfortable with and will often annotate it. I use an ESV on a Kindle, which may or may not be the version the preacher is using. But his version is usually projected on the screen, as are notes from the sermon.
Another factor is that these churches often don't have pews and modern chairs seldom have storage for books. We meet in a warehouse with folding chairs.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Surely the whole point of "readings" within the service is that the word is read to people and they HEAR it, not that everyone is bent over their own Bible?
As for making notes (presumably during a sermon?) - surely while you are making your notes the preacher will have moved on to something else?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Some people just like to follow along with readings. I don't, but I know (for instance) my wife does.
And taking notes during a sermon isn't any different from taking notes in class; we've all been there. Again, it is not something that I ever did, and I wouldn't expect that anyone take notes when I preach, but some people do like it. My mother-in-law would always leave church with veritable transcript of what the preacher had said.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, I make notes occasionally- not often- and I did on at least one occasion make notes in English from a Welsh sermon for the benefit of non-Welsh speaking guests. Kept up perfectly well.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I listen best with a pen in my hand. It's in my job description.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
We have a Union flag (I think it's an historic one) on the pillar behind the lectern; there's a Canadian flag and a Newfoundland flag one either side of the sanctuary, just inside the communion rail.
We also have a couple of historic lion-rampant flags (very historic - they're falling to bits) high on the wall of the south transept.
On Commonwealth Sunday we have a wonderful display down the two aisles of flags of all the Commonwealth countries.
Some Anglican churches here display the flag of the Anglican Church of Canada.
IMHO there is no place in church for an over-head projector. Ever. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Surely the whole point of "readings" within the service is that the word is read to people and they HEAR it, not that everyone is bent over their own Bible?
Well, I'd posit that originally the point of readings within the service was that the synagogue/church was the only places the Scriptures could be found and therefore the only place they could be read. That, and that few were able to read them. "Hearing" was pretty much the only way for the majority of people to be exposed to scripture.
But as Jon suggests, some people hear and and comprehend better if they read along. For me, doing so is a distraction that prevents me from really hearing. Ditto notetaking—I have a hard time listening and taking notes at the same time. But for others, it helps them listen. Nothing right or wrong either way.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
...
On Commonwealth Sunday we have a wonderful display down the two aisles of flags of all the Commonwealth countries.
Now I do like the sound of that
quote:
IMHO there is no place in church for an over-head projector. Ever.
Quite. As I've said before, in a proper church there's no place to put a screen, because the rood screen/ reredos/ Royal Arms/ English Altar/ Set Fawr/ huge central pulpit/ iconostasis/ mercy seat (delete according to tradition and churchmanship) would get in the way.
[Edit: UBB was getting to me]
[ 27. October 2014, 05:21: Message edited by: Zappa ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
In a 'proper church'???
It would be more appropriate to say 'in a historical church building' or something of that sort.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'll concede as far as 'in a proper church building', then- of any vintage.
[ 24. October 2014, 20:37: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Is a 'proper church' simply a dedicated church building? If so, there are many of recent construction that could make space for a screen if they wanted one.
The architectural characteristics that you mentioned in your previous post won't all be present in many churches. Not even in a historical denomination.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The trouble with large central screens is that they can become the focus of worship...
Or as a child who attends my local church ( ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ) commented : at our church we sing funny songs and pray to a big TV.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I really can't comprehend how screens can become a focus of worship. They show a page, just like in a book.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Is a 'proper church' simply a dedicated church building? If so, there are many of recent construction that could make space for a screen if they wanted one.
The architectural characteristics that you mentioned in your previous post won't all be present in many churches. Not even in a historical denomination.
Well of course they won't all be present in what I quite unapologetically call a proper church building. In fact I would say very confidently that there is no church building in the world which contains all of the things that I have mentioned, unless someone somewhere knows of a Welsh Baptist sect within Orthodoxy which follows the Sarum Rite... And there might be proper church buildings which contain none of these things- one thinks, for example, of the kind of in-the-round church a la St Paul's Bow Common, which I rather like. There might be a great big East window or a space deliberately left blank. But otherwise I stand by my statement.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
My church building is a warehouse that we bought with our own money. I'm sure we'd all love to meet in a beautiful historic building but we only started to form a congregation here 20 years ago so have inherited no such building or ancient furnishings. Our congregation now numbers around 400 and I'm quite certain we would not be able to find or afford a fancy building, medieval or modern, in central Cambridge that is big enough to host our services and community outreach, provide an office for several staff and have meeting rooms for a Sunday school with 72 children. A warehouse really is the most practical and affordable option for us, ours even comes with an old foreman's house for an office. Even then we don't all fit in and the older children are in a portacabin.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But otherwise I stand by my statement.
You're free to do so. But only you seem to understand what you mean!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Possibly. But of course just because you don't seem to understand what I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean that nobody else does.
[ 26. October 2014, 09:20: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I accept that others may be better mind-readers than I am.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I noticed the 13-year-old boy sitting in front of me taking notes a few weeks ago. And yes, I could read what he was writing, and it was definitely notes on the sermon.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I am sorry to report that when I write during the sermon it is usually not notes. Something about lectures or sermons is curiously conducive to fiction.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
One of the more interesting display of flags is in St John's Cathedral in Hong Kong. The old colonial regimental flags laid up there (the Queen's Colour, of course, is a Union Jack with appropriate symbol in the middle); this I can understand. But also hanging in full view is a full size Union Flag and the old colonial flag for Hong Kong - blue ensign, Union Jack, colonial coat of arms. It is a startling political symbol to have in Hong Kong outside of a museum.
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DangerousDeacon:
It is a startling political symbol to have in Hong Kong outside of a museum.
Indeed! is my reaction to that one, even if the attitude of the Communist authorities towards Christians hardly inspires confidence either...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The 'flags' in the side chapel of St John's Cathedral are: the laid-up colours of HK defence regiments/detachments, specifically those at the time of the Japanese invasion plus the Union flag and Hong Kong flag from the same period. The same chapel also has memorial books for those people - military and, I think, civilian - who died during the invasion and occupation, which was a pretty harrowing time.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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