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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Atheists and Holidays
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Dog Dad
Apprentice
# 18238
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Posted
So, if someone is an avowed atheist, I take it to mean that they eschew any religion or spiritual beliefs. Therefore, would that lack of belief mean that aside from Patriotic holidays, they really should not celebrate any holidays that invoke any deity....New Year's Eve is fine, but even something like Thanksgiving could potentially be 'out'. Is anyone so devoutly 'undevout' that nothing is celebrated (Leaving out the Jehovahs' Witnesses, of course- who celebrate nothing!)
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Bacon Diem! (I hate Carp)
Posts: 6 | From: Peekskill, NY | Registered: Oct 2014
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
I don't think you'll get many replies from "avowed atheists" on this one. They don't usually tell religious people what they should or should not celebrate with holidays - but they don't (generally) demand the same courtesy in return, either. Personally, I celebrate the Winter Solstice with more enthusiasm than Christmas these days, but that's got little to do with either religion or atheism, and a lot to do with old, cold bones!
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I don't believe in Santa Claus but give presents. I also don't believe in the Easter Bunny but will eat chocolate eggs and rabbits with gluttony. Am I not supposed to?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dog Dad:
So, if someone is an avowed atheist, I take it to mean that they eschew any religion or spiritual beliefs...
Then you may be wrong.
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that God exists. That doesn't mean they are not religious. Buddhists and Taoists have a religion but are atheists, because it doesn't involve "God".
Of course, to precisely define "atheist" you have to define "God", because otherwise how do you know whether their beliefs qualify or not?
So rather than assuming all atheists hold the same beliefs (they don't), perhaps you can more clearly state exactly what beliefs you are assuming some people hold, then see whether or not anyone on the Ship (or elsewhere) actually holds those beliefs.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I have atheists in my family ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) who celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday. Food, present giving. Ditto for Easter as a secular holiday. Party time! Thanksgiving has few religious connotations in Canada - it is purely a Harvest festival. Food is obligatory.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
As an atheist pagan hedonist, I will happily join the festivities of any god, prophet, guru, sage, emanation or ascended master you happen to have - seeing them not so much as aspects of the divine, but of humanity.
Except possibly for Bank Holidays: I draw the line at celebrating bankers.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
In the UK at least, 'religious' holidays are generally enjoyed in a secular fashion. IOW, the religious origins are understood, but the holidays are common property, and everyone celebrates them according to their own family traditions.
In fact, I think celebrating Christmas has almost become one of the signs that one has become assimilated into British culture. Being a believing or practising Christian has little to do with it, and Santa is more in evidence than Baby Jesus.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
The fundamentalist atheists should make a point to go to work on religious holidays, to show that they are serious about refusing to grant religion any special privilege in society. I want to see RIchard Dawkins at work, eating a marmite sandwich for Christmas lunch!
Tim Minchin's "Drinking White Wine in the Sun" captures the Australian sentimental attitude to Christmas beautifully, although I'll never forgive him for the line "I'd rather break bread with Dawkins than Desmond Tutu" Drinking White Wine in the Sun
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
Richard Dawkins has admitted to attending carol services at Christmas. Muslims and Hindus join in the Christmas festivities. (A Muslim pointed out to me, why wouldn't they want to celebrate Christmas since Jesus is a prophet of Islam.) Both Christmas snd Easter, as mid-winter and spring festivals have pagan roots. So I see no reason why our atheist friends should not enjoy the festival with us Christians; we just see a deeper meaning in it.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I'm all for people of goodwill enjoying religious holidays of any faith. It's just the fundamentalist atheists like Dawkins I think should abstain on grounds of conscience.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I'm not sure what an "avowed" atheist is; what would we vow to or by?
But as members of families, work groups, friendship circles, etc. etc, steering clear of a celebration simply because others present impute meaning to it that you yourself do not seems . . . well, frankly, churlish. Come up with your own meaning: having a good time with people whose company you enjoy.
As someone whose birthday has been known to fall on Easter now and again, wouldn't it be rude of me to insist that those who celebrate with me forego the Hallelujah chorus in favor of Happy Birthday?
Silly.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Except possibly for Bank Holidays: I draw the line at celebrating bankers.
I'm reasonably certain you're joking, but for those living outside the UK, a bank holiday is a day when you have a holiday from banking (i.e., the banks are closed on a day they're usually open) -- not a day to celebrate bankers. That would be bonkers.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I'm all for people of goodwill enjoying religious holidays of any faith. It's just the fundamentalist atheists like Dawkins I think should abstain on grounds of conscience.
I'm not sure I would call Dawkins a fundamentalist; he only claims to be 99% sure there is no god. A fundamentalist wouldn't admit to doubt. Now there are a few fundamentalist atheists out there; for some reason they were usually fundamentalist Christians (or other religion) before and they will eschew all the religious holidays they can. Most of the rest of us are live and let live. I'm looking forward to Thanksgiving, Christmas, latkes at the local UU church and maybe their yule festival.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Why shouldn't they celebrate Christmas et al? What makes it a matter of conscience--and why should we who believe be their consciences' minder, anyway?
If someone feels it necessary to behave with absolute logical consistency in every area of life, great, and let them get on with it. But I'm all in favor of cheerful inconsistency on matters that do nobody any harm. What was that quote about consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds?
I mind me of a militant atheist at a bookstore where I once worked. She was so militant about it that she insisted on staying in the store on Easter Sunday to scrub floors in the warehouse section. Now that's just sad.
Let 'em eat cake! or chocolate eggs! or Christmas pudding! Or atheist non-angel food cake!
Let them be happy.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
As an atheist pagan hedonist, I will happily join the festivities of any god, prophet, guru, sage, emanation or ascended master you happen to have - seeing them not so much as aspects of the divine, but of humanity.
Except possibly for Bank Holidays: I draw the line at celebrating bankers.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I have attended religious celebrations and feasts as a guest but in general I try to avoid Christmas. I see Thanksgiving as a Harvest Festival.
I have relatives who would not understand so they get a Holiday card and gift. I don't celebrate myself and try to stay out of stores in December. It's very hard to avoid Christmas, it's layered over the public space. You give me an involuntary holiday vacation and then expect me not to enjoy it? The vacation is a celebration in itself.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
My brother, now living in Miami says Thanksgiving is his favourite holiday and he's not giving up pumpkin pie for anyone, despite being an atheist and not being American.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Ah, but your brother hasn't tasted MY pumpkin pie. He might change desserts, holidays, belief systems, and continents if he had.
Last Thanksgiving I dropped the one I brought to a family celebration. It didn't break.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Interesting thread - and some provoking responses.
A slight tangent for those in the UK or who know it well .... there's a comment above about "celebrating" bank Holidays.
I don't "celebrate" them or have them as a day off. For one thing, they seem to be an anachronism - if everything else in this world is 24/7/365, then why aren't the banks open on days other than Christmas or Easter?
For businesses who have to open, there's the cost of extra time payments and holidays in lieu. Your council rubbish collection gets confusing too as they sometimes are a day behind to catch up and sometimes not. Then, there's the loss of productivity -- you end up having a slightly less than 4 day week (as every normal week is always slightly less than 5 days), as it always takes time to get doing and wind down.
I've long suggested we keep Christmas and Easter as now but stop all other bank holidays. Instead we allow all employees to have extra days holiday when they can take when they wish - as I do.
Thoughts anyone?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Porridge ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Net Spinster says quote:
I'm not sure I would call Dawkins a fundamentalist; he only claims to be 99% sure there is no god. A fundamentalist wouldn't admit to doubt.
What he says and how he acts are 2 different things (at least it's not just Christians who are guilty of this). There is a translation of the word "believe" that says it means "to give your heart to" I'd say that's exactly what Dawkins has done and on his own admission
“I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
He devotes an enormous amount of time and energy to trying to denounce religion and to remove its societal privileges. That's fundamentalism to me, he is so sure that he has the truth he is passionately devoted to spreading his truth to everyone and to making society live by his truth, eg abolishing tax exemption for churches, equating religious education to child abuse, so presumably not only would he ban it but also incarcerate those responsible. Some of hIs acolytes go about obstructing nativity scenes in public spaces and complaining about Christmas decorations (whether or not he is complicit is by Dawkins own logic irrelevant).
Hence, if you're going to be a zealot in removing religion from public life, you're a hypocrite if you take the "benefit" of a holiday while actively campaigning against that religion. It's a bit like those Christian preachers who preach against homesexuality and are then found to have engaged in homosexual acts themselves.
I don't really care other than to point out that it's hypocrisy for fundamentalist atheists to "celebrate" religious holidays.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Ah, but for how many of you is November 11 a holiday of remembrance, as it is here?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Tea
Shipmate
# 16619
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Posted
Originally posted by ExclamationMark: quote:
I've long suggested we keep Christmas and Easter as now but stop all other bank holidays. Instead we allow all employees to have extra days holiday when they can take when they wish...
I'm not so sure about this proposal. I appreciate the collective or social character of public holidays.
In my view, both the UK and the USA need more, not fewer, public holidays, as well a shorter working week.
This "avowed atheist" would have no problems with new public holidays in England being linked to dates with Christian associations - just as Dog Dad presumably has no problem with the association of Christmas with pagan festivals.
Posts: 66 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2011
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dog Dad:
New Year's Eve is fine, but even something like Thanksgiving could potentially be 'out'.
Well technically the New Year occurs at the time that the baby Jesus would have been circumcised, so it's related to Christianity.
Thanksgiving is not religious at all, I don't see how being atheist would disqualify one from celebrating it. Surely the apocryphal feast between the pilgrims and the Native Americans meant (at least) two different religious groups were at the first one.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
One of my siblings announced they were not going to mark Christmas just before the children's fifth birthday.
We sent a Christmas card and gift (same as for other siblings) in any case - received back snotty note about not believing in the whole deity thing but they kept the gift.
Next year we sent nothing - got snotty note to ask why they'd been excluded.
Third year got the children to make cards (no religious symbolism) and sent those - no reaction to children but vile note to us with accusation we were 'using' the children to make them feel guilty ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Some years later there was another manufactured row because we didn't inform them of the children's confirmation.
Sometimes you just can't win.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Dog Dad
Apprentice
# 18238
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Posted
I think it is a matter of conscience....and aren't the pagan holidays that we have co-opted for Christmas and Easter religious holidays any way? Doesn't matter that the gods behind them are no longer worshipped, Saturnalia was worshipped, the Springtime Goddess (eostre, i can't remember who) was worshipped, etc.
As annoying as the JW's can be, they do keep consistency on the no-celebration thing...at least in theory.
I think all holidays are cool, but in good conscience, you don't find me celebrating Eid or Diwali...No. Do I feel that Christians ought to be at least remembering the Jewish holidays and feasts? Yes....but that's another drawn out discussion.
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Bacon Diem! (I hate Carp)
Posts: 6 | From: Peekskill, NY | Registered: Oct 2014
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dog Dad:
I think it is a matter of conscience....and aren't the pagan holidays that we have co-opted for Christmas and Easter religious holidays any way?
For some British atheists, the fact that these Christian holidays have pagan origins means that Christians have no right to claim them as their exclusive property.
Many of the traditions that have grown up around Christmas seem to be fairly recent in origin, so Christians can't really say that what they do goes back to the Bible. Indeed, I understand that church leaders in the past were often antipathetic towards some of the popular traditions, e.g. Christmas carols. Would evangelical churches in the late Victorian era have routinely displayed decorated Christmas trees?
I wonder whether the church's gradually accepting stance on popular Christmas traditions has ever been read as a sign of secularisation. I don't know, but I do get the impression that the enthusiasm for Christmas in many churches is a sign of how distant they are from the general population during the rest of the year.
[ 11. November 2014, 11:50: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
For some British atheists, the fact that these Christian holidays have pagan origins means that Christians have no right to claim them as their exclusive property.
But there are things that are specifically Christian about Christmas - the giving of gifts to mirror the gifts given to Jesus; all of the religious-oriented songs; attending a church service.
So if an atheist is avoiding all of these things - then fine they can say they are celebrating the mid-winter solstice. Otherwise they are being slightly hypocritical.
Many non-Christians with strong faith manage to avoid celebrating Christmas so as not to cause problems with their own religious beliefs. I had Jewish and Hindu friends growing up whose parents refused their repeated pleas for Christmas trees and to join in carolling. Why atheists can't manage this strikes me as laziness.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
My dad was such a militant atheist, that he wouldn't let us use the names of days of the week, as he said that they celebrated pagan gods.
Well, I made that up, to show the idiocy of the argument. In fact, we used to eat Christmas dinner and give prezzies, with not a thought for baby Jesus.
In other words, Christmas and Easter have been rapidly secularized.
I don't mind if atheists enjoy carols and sacred music; it's not hypocritical at all. I enjoy visiting pagan sites, such as Newgrange in Ireland - you don't have to be a pagan to find them awesome.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
seekingsister
I don't suppose most people are consciously thinking of the infant Jesus when they're buying or exchanging presents. It's just something you have to do.
As for singing carols and going to church services, I suppose it is a bit hypocritical for someone like Dawkins who thinks Christianity is such a bad idea. But British atheism seems to be fairly relaxed about religion - i.e. Anglicanism - as a cultural phenomenon. Maybe it's because most British atheists have grown up with religion as a fairly benign and/or distant phenomenon. They're usually complaining about religious oppression on behalf of other people, not themselves. The American ones seem more eager to escape from religious influences, probably because theirs is simply a more religious society.
Interestingly, I have a book by a French atheist who says that if you lose your faith, you should continue with the same religious practices you had before! I think there's a sense that religion provides a cultural framework and a national heritage, and these things are more important than the presence or absence of faith.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
For some British atheists, the fact that these Christian holidays have pagan origins means that Christians have no right to claim them as their exclusive property.
But there are things that are specifically Christian about Christmas - the giving of gifts to mirror the gifts given to Jesus; all of the religious-oriented songs; attending a church service.
So if an atheist is avoiding all of these things - then fine they can say they are celebrating the mid-winter solstice. Otherwise they are being slightly hypocritical.
Many non-Christians with strong faith manage to avoid celebrating Christmas so as not to cause problems with their own religious beliefs. I had Jewish and Hindu friends growing up whose parents refused their repeated pleas for Christmas trees and to join in carolling. Why atheists can't manage this strikes me as laziness.
Because they don't want to, don't see any reason to, and rather enjoy doing it, just as I would if I woke up one day and decided all this religion stuff was a crock.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
“I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
He devotes an enormous amount of time and energy to trying to denounce religion and to remove its societal privileges. That's fundamentalism to me, he is so sure that he has the truth he is passionately devoted to spreading his truth to everyone and to making society live by his truth, eg abolishing tax exemption for churches, equating religious education to child abuse, so presumably not only would he ban it but also incarcerate those responsible. Some of hIs acolytes go about obstructing nativity scenes in public spaces and complaining about Christmas decorations (whether or not he is complicit is by Dawkins own logic irrelevant).
Few things. First he and for that matter me are opposed to government endorsement of particular religions. In other words to remove the societal privileges. This will mean removing government permission for nativity scenes on government property when such permission is not forthcoming for other groups; all atheists I know of have no trouble at all with such scenes on the publicly visible property of private people or of churches (though we may criticize some of it as being incredibly tacky, I'm sure ship crew and passengers can think of a few cringe worthy examples). Second tax exemption are problematic especially when it doesn't come with open books; how much in donations is channeled into the pockets of wealthy ministers; Mark Driscoll was taking a parsonage allowance of $200,000/year (for those outside the US that is tax free income for clergy as long as it is spent directly or indirectly on housing [a parsonage allowance or similar is not available to anyone who is not clergy {a military housing allowances is also exempt but it is government money in the first place}]). Tax exemptions for charitable purposes seems fine, but, I'm not sure paying for a prosperity gospel ministry's jet counts as charitable. Third, IIRC the example of religious education he equated with child abuse is telling a little child that their recently deceased friend is burning in hell because the friend was not Christian.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Because they don't want to, don't see any reason to, and rather enjoy doing it, just as I would if I woke up one day and decided all this religion stuff was a crock.
They have the right to do whatever they want. And I have the right to point out the hypocrisy.
My Christian relatives who live in Muslim countries take the day off for the public holidays but you don't find them sacrificing rams alongside. Even if you get a really nice goat stew and a party afterwards.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Richard Dawkins has admitted to attending carol services at Christmas. Muslims and Hindus join in the Christmas festivities. (A Muslim pointed out to me, why wouldn't they want to celebrate Christmas since Jesus is a prophet of Islam.) Both Christmas snd Easter, as mid-winter and spring festivals have pagan roots. So I see no reason why our atheist friends should not enjoy the festival with us Christians; we just see a deeper meaning in it.
Oh, Im not so sure about that deeper meaning crack. Deeper is as deeper does. There are plenty of shallow Christians, plenty of profound atheists. What could be more important at this coming time of the year than the re-birth of the Sun? Christians acknowledge this, have hijacked the pagan festival, and changed the spelling, but we really are all in it together!
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Because they don't want to, don't see any reason to, and rather enjoy doing it, just as I would if I woke up one day and decided all this religion stuff was a crock.
They have the right to do whatever they want. And I have the right to point out the hypocrisy.
My Christian relatives who live in Muslim countries take the day off for the public holidays but you don't find them sacrificing rams alongside. Even if you get a really nice goat stew and a party afterwards.
It's hypocrisy if they say "don't celebrate Christmas" and then do so. They don't, so there's no hypocrisy. They don't celebrate a religious festival in which they do not believe; they celebrate the massive secular festival that has grown up around it. They seem exactly like your relatives in Muslim countries; they don't sacrifice a ram, and I doubt if you'll find many atheists receiving communion on Christmas morning, either.
You're going to tell me you know loads who do now...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Because they don't want to, don't see any reason to, and rather enjoy doing it, just as I would if I woke up one day and decided all this religion stuff was a crock.
They have the right to do whatever they want. And I have the right to point out the hypocrisy.
My Christian relatives who live in Muslim countries take the day off for the public holidays but you don't find them sacrificing rams alongside. Even if you get a really nice goat stew and a party afterwards.
To be fair, though, I'm sure most clergy are only too glad to get the chance to minister to hypocritical atheists at Christmas carol services! Although maybe there are other ministers who get rather cynical about people who only turn up at Christmas.
We speak with forked tongue! I've learnt that the festival of nine lessons and carols was devised after WWI precisely to make CofE worship more attractive to a generation that was less 'churchy' than its predecessors. That being the case, it makes little sense to hold such a service if you don't want to draw in such people (whose beliefs are probably all over the shop).
The problem is that we want our Christmas celebrations to have an evangelistic effect, but when atheists claim to enjoy them simply for cultural reasons, maybe it puts a dampener on things. Are we simply suppliers of cultural services?
For Christians who don't like the lines to be blurred between believers and non-believers at Christmastime the only solution is to step away from popular and expected Christmas traditions. Easier said than done! Interestingly, though, the Christmas Day service I attended last year was very thinly attended. I don't think there were any atheists there.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Personally I think the whole thing would be a lot simpler if we just let people be.
Chillax, as the yoof likes to say. Who bloody cares what Dawkins does on Christmas Day? He can dance naked at Avebury or attend Westminster Cathedral or have a coffee and open his presents like 99% of the rest of the population for all I care.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I have no problem with non-believers coming to church at Christmas. I think it's great and indeed our church sees it as an opportunity for evangelism.
What I have a problem with is people who say religion is for idiots and decry the existence of Christianity in the public sphere, except around Christmastime when they try to pretend they are celebrating a pagan ritual to get around the fact that they actually enjoy a Christian holiday.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I once saw a picture of Dawkins wearing an 'Atheists for Jesus' t-shirt. Maybe he thinks that stance makes it okay for him to condemn people's religious beliefs while sharing in some of their rituals.
It would be interesting to know what Dawkins would like the CofE to do. He doesn't argue for disestablishment, does he? He obviously thinks it's a useful institution, despite its irrational foundations. I think he spends most of his time now arguing with Christians in the USA. I doubt he'd want to sing Christmas carols with them.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
In other words, Christmas and Easter have been rapidly secularized.
They are also products of centuries of Christian domination of the default culture.
"Yes, sirs and madams, we wish to derive gastronomic pleasure from this confection and yet keep it intact forever".
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I have no problem with non-believers coming to church at Christmas. I think it's great and indeed our church sees it as an opportunity for evangelism.
What I have a problem with is people who say religion is for idiots and decry the existence of Christianity in the public sphere, except around Christmastime when they try to pretend they are celebrating a pagan ritual to get around the fact that they actually enjoy a Christian holiday.
I seriously doubt that Dawkins', like most people's, Christmas is in any recognisable form a Christian holiday. It's mostly a big piss-up. He is in no way "doing" religion, and of all the things one could ding Dawkins for I don't see this as one.
[ 11. November 2014, 14:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
What I have a problem with is people who say religion is for idiots and decry the existence of Christianity in the public sphere, except around Christmastime when they try to pretend they are celebrating a pagan ritual to get around the fact that they actually enjoy a Christian holiday.
What about if they sit around feeling morose and overfed, wishing there was something decent on the telly and that their boring relatives would go home? Is that OK?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Being thankful does not require a belief in a deity. Nor does celebrating the coming of spring, midwinter, etc.
IMO, the OP is similar to the argument that there can be no ethics without a belief in God.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
They seem exactly like your relatives in Muslim countries; they don't sacrifice a ram, and I doubt if you'll find many atheists receiving communion on Christmas morning, either.
You don't think it's odd that Dawkins goes to carol services? You don't get "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" in those, you get Christian music.
To quote the man himself
quote:
As a “cultural Anglican,” Mr. Dawkins continued, “I recoil from such secular carols as ‘White Christmas,’ ‘Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, and the loathsome ‘Jingle Bells,’ but I’m happy to sing real carols, and in the unlikely event that anyone wants me to read a lesson I’ll gladly oblige — only from the King James Version, of course.”
New York Times quote:
Our parish is rammed to the rafters on Christmas Eve, and I'd hope every single person in attendance is at the very least mildly supportive of the church's ongoing existence. It would really irritate me to find that someone who thinks it's an outdated malevolent institution still wants to turn up for mince pies, mulled wine, and a bit of singing. You won't find me worshipping (yes that's what singing Christmas carols in a church is) with a group I malign the other 364 days of the year.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Our parish is rammed to the rafters on Christmas Eve, and I'd hope every single person in attendance is at the very least mildly supportive of the church's ongoing existence. It would really irritate me to find that someone who thinks it's an outdated malevolent institution still wants to turn up for mince pies, mulled wine, and a bit of singing. You won't find me worshipping (yes that's what singing Christmas carols in a church is) with a group I malign the other 364 days of the year.
Whoa. Not all atheists consider the church a malevolent institution (though some clearly do); I can't imagine what mince pie has to do with Jesus, or why I can't enjoy some while professing skepticism about the faith; and in the US, anyway, where the Christmas Muzak cranks up in every shopping mall beginning with Halloween, how can anybody be faulted for mindlessly humming along to the never-ending, omnipresent O Come All Ye Faithful?
Much of the music to which Biblical or at least faith-observant texts may be set is gorgeous. Am I not allowed to have a listen or sing along when I appreciate the music? Am I allowed to look and wonder at only those great paintings and sculptures by the masters when they treat of secular themes, and pass blindfolded by the rest?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Christianity is part of British, American, Canadian, etc. culture. Remove that and then complain.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Whoa. Not all atheists consider the church a malevolent institution (though some clearly do
And the type of atheist who is OK with the church - as I said "mildly supportive of its existence" - is not going to claim "I'm not celebrating Christmas, I'm celebrating the winter solstice, which the Christians stole." Because that's bollocks. Say you're celebrating Christmas because you like it and be honest.
The ones who do mental gymnastics are the ones I have no patience for.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
Personally I think the whole thing would be a lot simpler if we just let people be.
I think that's the crux of the matter.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
They seem exactly like your relatives in Muslim countries; they don't sacrifice a ram, and I doubt if you'll find many atheists receiving communion on Christmas morning, either.
You don't think it's odd that Dawkins goes to carol services?
No, because:
quote:
Our parish is rammed to the rafters on Christmas Eve,
People like singing Christmas Carols for all sorts of reasons. Many people who never darken a church door at other times do so. Dawkins at no point claims he believes any of it; unless somewhere he's said no-one should attend a church service for any reason at all, then the charge of hypocrisy doesn't stick.
And seriously, chillax. Stop worrying about what other people are doing and why. What Dawkins does at Christmas doesn't change your life, so ignore him if he irks you.
[ 11. November 2014, 15:21: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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