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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Atheists and Holidays
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
The 40 min sermons would be enough to put me off, Svit.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm still baffled as to how singing hymns in church is not an act of worship. Is there a Christmas exception being applied here?
No. There's a "not meaning it and not intending it as worship" exemption going on, as always.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Why would someone go into a church to sing Christian music, which to the Christians in attendance is an act of worship, if they did not intend themselves to be participating in said act of worship?
I feel like you have some desire to rationalize behavior that is obviously irrational. Which, if my statements don't apply to you, I'm not sure why you are even bothering to do. If someone claims to be an atheist, and then goes into a church to sing Christmas hymns - there's something inconsistent there. In the years when I was not a Christian do you know how many times I went to a carol service? ZERO. I was only in church if forced by family members.
One problem here, is that you are confusing yourself with other people. The fact that you didn't go to a carol service, as a non-believer, says nothing about what other people would do.
I don't see it as inconsistent at all. X does not believe in God, but feels affection towards some Christian cultural artifacts, and joins in sometimes. Sounds quite normal to me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The 40 min sermons would be enough to put me off, Svit.
I've read that in Harlem there used to be organised tourist trips to black churches. The tourists would stay for the music and leave before the (long) sermon. I don't know if that still goes on.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The 40 min sermons would be enough to put me off, Svit.
I've read that in Harlem there used to be organised tourist trips to black churches. The tourists would stay for the music and leave before the (long) sermon. I don't know if that still goes on.
It happened at a traditionally black Catholic church I visited in New Orleans that has a gospel choir and a jazz band. A flock of tourists disappeared as soon as the priest came out.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SvitlanaV2: I've read that in Harlem there used to be organised tourist trips to black churches. The tourists would stay for the music and leave before the (long) sermon. I don't know if that still goes on.
Do they at least put something on the collection plate?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've read that in Harlem there used to be organised tourist trips to black churches. The tourists would stay for the music and leave before the (long) sermon. I don't know if that still goes on.
It happened at a traditionally black Catholic church I visited in New Orleans that has a gospel choir and a jazz band. A flock of tourists disappeared as soon as the priest came out.
This just shows, doesn't it, that people often like religious music without particularly wanting the religion itself.
For some people, music is rather like a religion, and needs no justification....
[ 12. November 2014, 14:12: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
You'd think that Christians would welcome atheists to carol services, or indeed, other services. You never know, that fragment of moth-eaten brocade might engender some interest in the whole tapestry.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This just shows, doesn't it, that people often like religious music without particularly wanting the religion itself.
Well, this is when I make myself unpopular again. It was very distracting and borderline offensive the way these people treated a Sunday church service like a tourist attraction. Particularly in the way some of the women were dressed and dancing to the music.
[ 12. November 2014, 14:43: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You'd think that Christians would welcome atheists to carol services, or indeed, other services. You never know, that fragment of moth-eaten brocade might engender some interest in the whole tapestry.
I welcome them. Pointing out "Hey you say you don't believe in God, but here you are at church. How does that work?" might be the start of a conversation that leads in the direction of faith. Or not. But ignoring it because "Well I'm sure they just like the tradition" doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You'd think that Christians would welcome atheists to carol services, or indeed, other services. You never know, that fragment of moth-eaten brocade might engender some interest in the whole tapestry.
I welcome them. Pointing out "Hey you say you don't believe in God, but here you are at church. How does that work?" might be the start of a conversation that leads in the direction of faith. Or not. But ignoring it because "Well I'm sure they just like the tradition" doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
Well, that sounds an improvement on calling them hypocrites.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[qb] It happened at a traditionally black Catholic church I visited in New Orleans that has a gospel choir and a jazz band. A flock of tourists disappeared as soon as the priest came out.
This just shows, doesn't it, that people often like religious music without particularly wanting the religion itself.
quote:
Well, this is when I make myself unpopular again. It was very distracting and borderline offensive the way these people treated a Sunday church service like a tourist attraction. Particularly in the way some of the women were dressed and dancing to the music.
I'm not going to argue about that! I did get the impression that some of these tourists weren't very respectful.
What I don't like is the idea of walking out of a service before it finishes. Theological offence might be a good reason, but boredom isn't! I've noticed that visitors attending services in cathedrals and city centre churches have a habit of drifting out when they feel like it. I think it's because they see themselves as observers rather than participants, even with regard to the singing.
Most churches tolerate a variety of clothing styles nowadays, at least for newcomers. It's a shame that the organisers of tour groups in the USA don't advise the visitors how to behave, though.
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
For that matter lots of people read, enjoy and are genuinely moved the works of Classical writers without feeling the slightest need to pop out and sacrifice a ram to Zeus.
You're supporting my point. It would be considered an odd leap to go from reading Roman mythology to sacrificing rams to Zeus, which would be an act of worship.
In the same way, I think taking the step to go into a church and participate in Christian worship for a major Christian holiday, is beyond simply admiring a cultural practice. It's participating in it directly.
Yes. Participating in a cultural practice. As a cultural practice. Not as an act of worship.
Quite. Loads of people who don't normally darken the doors of the church said "Amen" this Sunday during the Act of Remembrance. I, on the other hand 'did a Redwood' at the words of 'I Vow To Thee My Country' and declined to say 'Amen' at the end of the 'Flanders Field' poem. The difference being, I think, that I was concerned not to commit idolatry and that the people who were there for cultural reasons were concerned not to give offence. Most non-believers who turn up to Remembrance, Carol Services and whatever are more concerned to be polite than they are not to offend a deity in which they don't believe. There is an asymmetry, if you like, between attitudes.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
The shopping malls around here have a habit of having various singing groups come in and sing carols during the Christmas shopping season. It puts the shoppers in a better mood to buy stuff.
Is this an act of worship or desecration. I think most of the people who hear the endless performance of Carols and other Christmas music (especially those classics written by Jewish composers) aren't seeing listening as an act of worship.
Many of them aren't going to do a context switch and say "oh if it's performed in a church it's an act of worship, like going to bingo."
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Callan quote:
Quite. Loads of people who don't normally darken the doors of the church said "Amen" this Sunday during the Act of Remembrance. I, on the other hand 'did a Redwood' at the words of 'I Vow To Thee My Country' and declined to say 'Amen' at the end of the 'Flanders Field' poem. The difference being, I think, that I was concerned not to commit idolatry and that the people who were there for cultural reasons were concerned not to give offence. Most non-believers who turn up to Remembrance, Carol Services and whatever are more concerned to be polite than they are not to offend a deity in which they don't believe. There is an asymmetry, if you like, between attitudes.
Not sure what sort of service you were at!
The response to the Act of Remembrance (They shall grow not old ...) is We will remember them.
If the McCrae poem was read out then it required no response - certainly not Amen.
As for I vow to thee my country: I can see your objection to the first verse but the second refers to the heavenly kingdom so what's objectionable about that?
Sounds like you need better Orders of Service with the right words, and better choice of hymns!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The shopping malls around here have a habit of having various singing groups come in and sing carols during the Christmas shopping season. It puts the shoppers in a better mood to buy stuff.
Is this an act of worship or desecration. I think most of the people who hear the endless performance of Carols and other Christmas music (especially those classics written by Jewish composers) aren't seeing listening as an act of worship.
Many of them aren't going to do a context switch and say "oh if it's performed in a church it's an act of worship, like going to bingo."
I just don't understand this.
Because hymns are sometimes sung outside of church, hearing them in church is so confusing to non-Christians that they don't know it's worship?
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
For non-Christians, it isn't worship.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
I have atheist friends who like a Christmas eve carol service, it's a nostalgia thing, toss in a eucharist they are somewhat annoyed, that's not what they came for. But the Joseph and Mary and Baby story is OK, everybody likes a baby, every baby is a miracle.
A comment somewhere upthread raised an interesting question - if non-believers attending Christmas Eve is nostalgia rather than cultural for those who know Christmas carols from a childhood where carols and Santa Claus were all aspects of anticipating Christmas gifts, are we in the waning years of atheists knowing the carols?
Many of today's young to middle adults were reared by parents who had turned into atheists before the kids came, there's no childhood experience of Christmas Eve or carols. I have friends who have never set foot in a church except to bury grandparents.
Some radio station Christmas playlists have only secular songs; if that's true in Bible Belt it must be more true elsewhere.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's the same with Christmas cards now, isn't it? There aren't many religious ones, where I shop, except the occasional angel, and I'm not sure how religious they are now.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Because hymns are sometimes sung outside of church, hearing them in church is so confusing to non-Christians that they don't know its worship?
This question brings to mind the phrase 'Belonging before Believing', and highlights it's problematic quality.
On the one hand we believe that worship is something for God and believers, and that a real spiritual connection is going on. But on the other, we also want non-believers to be attracted by our worship, to be drawn in, to participate even before they have any sense of faith or of God. Which leaves us with the question of what they're actually doing before they reach a point of faith. Is it possible to be praising God without knowing that you're doing so? Is a committed atheist who sings Handel's Messiah in a cathedral concert worshipping God in spite of herself? Or must the intention be there?
The CofE isn't known to be very fussy over this sort of thing, and I doubt that a denomination that wants to minister to a whole society can afford to be too particular. Maybe that's why the Anglican liturgies are considered to be so important; they cover all eventualities of faith or lack of faith, so to speak.
[ 12. November 2014, 17:52: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Porridge
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# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Well, this is when I make myself unpopular again. It was very distracting and borderline offensive the way these people treated a Sunday church service like a tourist attraction. Particularly in the way some of the women were dressed and dancing to the music.
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
________________________________________
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You'd think that Christians would welcome atheists to carol services, or indeed, other services. You never know, that fragment of moth-eaten brocade might engender some interest in the whole tapestry.
________________________________________
I welcome them. Pointing out "Hey you say you don't believe in God, but here you are at church. How does that work?" might be the start of a conversation that leads in the direction of faith. Or not. But ignoring it because "Well I'm sure they just like the tradition" doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
Seekingsister, I grow increasingly confused by your responses.
You say you’d welcome atheists to church services, perhaps by opening a discussion about the incongruity of not believing with attendance at a service. May I just say that, as a non-believer who is generally quiet and tries to be unobtrusive, that I would find this “What-are-you-doing-here?” approach intrusive rather than welcoming? Of course, someone else might respond differently.
And how, before you embark upon this opening gambit, do you distinguish the atheists from those tourists who do not dance to the music (like sacred dancers in some churches are known to do, for example?) How do you distinguish the congregation, which often contains sincere-yet-adolescent worshippers who dress as for a particular depraved Halloween party, from the inappropriately-clad tourists, at least before the tourists rudely flee the sermon? How do you distinguish any of these folks from someone who has just moved into the neighborhood and is there planning to make this his/her spiritual home?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Many of them aren't going to do a context switch and say "oh if it's performed in a church it's an act of worship, like going to bingo."
I just don't understand this.
Because hymns are sometimes sung outside of church, hearing them in church is so confusing to non-Christians that they don't know it's worship?
Many Christians aren't in church to worship on any particular Sunday!
It's a habit, it's a way of seeing friends, it's the only place left in our culture where people get together and sing, it's a break from the routine of the week, it's vaguely good for the kids somehow, it's a place to find nice girls to date, to have a sense of belonging, to try to make friends when new to the area, it's an obligation to show up because of being on the rota for some task that day. And some days to worship.
One church years ago sent out a questionnaire asking (probably many questions, I only remember one) "why do you come to church." It offered a long list of reasons to check off, including things like "to please a family member" or "for the music" as well as "to learn about Jesus" or "to worship God."
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I still go to church sometimes, because the local Catholic church has fabulous singers. I stopped believing in the texts literally, years ago. Up to now, nobody has nabbed me and asked me 'how does that work?', and I hope they don't.
[ 12. November 2014, 18:18: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Callan quote:
Quite. Loads of people who don't normally darken the doors of the church said "Amen" this Sunday during the Act of Remembrance. I, on the other hand 'did a Redwood' at the words of 'I Vow To Thee My Country' and declined to say 'Amen' at the end of the 'Flanders Field' poem. The difference being, I think, that I was concerned not to commit idolatry and that the people who were there for cultural reasons were concerned not to give offence. Most non-believers who turn up to Remembrance, Carol Services and whatever are more concerned to be polite than they are not to offend a deity in which they don't believe. There is an asymmetry, if you like, between attitudes.
Not sure what sort of service you were at!
The response to the Act of Remembrance (They shall grow not old ...) is We will remember them.
If the McCrae poem was read out then it required no response - certainly not Amen.
As for I vow to thee my country: I can see your objection to the first verse but the second refers to the heavenly kingdom so what's objectionable about that?
Sounds like you need better Orders of Service with the right words, and better choice of hymns!
Wow! That's unnecessarily austere!
Our Act of Remembrance consisted of:
A prayer at the beginning (hence the Amen)
The reading of the names
They shall not grow old (we will remember them)
The last post
Two minutes silence
The revilie (sp?)
The final prayer (another Amen)
Clearly Minimailism hasn't reached our part of the world yet.
I Vow To Thee (you've shot you're bolt if you've pledged everything to the earthly Babylon before dimly remembering your allegiance to the Heavenly Jerusalem) and the whole business of taking up the quarrel with the foe (we won, shall we move on) came in the afternoon civic service which Deo Gratias was not down to me.
Anyway, my point is that stuff that Christians care about in religious worship and stuff that non-believers are about is basically different. Hence British Legion agnostics will respond to Christian prayers in a way that Christians who are not unsympathetic to the Legion will have issues of conscience to which Legion types are not concerned. Which isn't to say that mutual respect can't exist between such types just that we expect different things from religious services.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Ikkyu
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# 15207
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Posted
Just to add something to the mix. Last Easter I went with my daughter to an Easter egg hunt held after the service (We also went to the service) in a Pure land Buddhist Temple. I am mostly a Zen person but my Zen Center does not have many activities for children.
The people there were not celebrating Christian Easter at all but the "Cultural Easter" as it were.
Any objections to that?.
I celebrate the season with a Christmas tree and we exchange gifts. Am I a Hypocrite since I am no longer a Christian? Do I have to call my Christmas tree a Rohatsu tree? ( Rohatsu is celebrated by Mahayana Buddhists in December)
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Seekingsister - I think you're just failing to grasp cultural Anglicanism. People will have sung Christmas carols from childhood, of course they're going to get nostalgic about them even if they don't believe in the lyrics. People can be culturally Anglicans and atheists, in the same way that someone can be culturally Jewish and atheist.
Also I don't get how being in a church building magically transforms it into worship - even I know that church is about the people and not the building.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Callan quote:
Wow! That's unnecessarily austere!
Our Act of Remembrance consisted of:
A prayer at the beginning (hence the Amen) The reading of the names They shall not grow old (we will remember them) The last post Two minutes silence The revilie (sp?) The final prayer (another Amen)
Clearly Minimailism hasn't reached our part of the world yet.
Was that it, or was it in the middle of another service?
We had:
Hymn
Welcome, Introductory Sentence, Collect
First Reading Prayers
The Last Post, Two Minute Silence, Reveille
They shall grow not old... (response "We will remember them")
Reading of the Roll of Honour
Anthem - My soul, there is a country by Parry
Second Reading, Hymn
Act of Penitence
Sermon
Third Hymn, Intercessions
Fourth Hymn
Blessing, and then distribution of, wreaths
Final Blessing
Two verses of the National Anthem
Silent procession to the War Memorial (in the Churchyard), laying of wreaths,
The Kohima Epitaph
I don't call that minimalist!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(Is this a Memorial Service pissing contest?)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Net Spinster
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# 16058
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Posted
I'm wondering whether we atheists, agnostics, and other non-Christians should demand the return of hymns (tune and/or words) written or arranged by atheists, agnostics, and other non-Christians. We can start with Vaughan Williams' tunes.
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spinner of webs
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
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# 2515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But you're moving the goal-posts. Singing carols in a carol service does not mean that you are worshiping at all. I think carols are part of secular culture now.
You don't believe singing hymns in a church to be worship?
I've maintained from the first page of the thread that if you go into a church to sing carols, that's participating in worship. I haven't moved anything.
quote:
You won't find me worshipping (yes that's what singing Christmas carols in a church is) with a group I malign the other 364 days of the year.
It's only worship if that's what the person doing it intends it to be.
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
Seeking Sister;
Let me unpack my tangled point.
if people go to Bingo at the local church should they know it's an act of worship? I wouldn't think so, because it's also a secular activity.
If they go to hear Carols, including ones with very limited religious meaning like "Carol of the Bells" should they assume it's an act of worship? They might not if they've heard the same songs in secular contexts repeatedly and may be there more from nostalgia for their youth. I have a Catholic friend who used to throw Christmas parties which included carol singing. She was surprised that I knew most of the lyrics which is a consequence of my going to a public elementary school where I was taught the songs by my Catholic teachers. I lost my qualms about singing about Jesus when I was 8.
This is the consequence of moving Christmas into the Secular public sphere.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
Palimpsest, as I have limited my point to the singing of religious music during a church service, bingo is irrelevant.
If I go into a mosque on Friday and join in the prayers, even though I am not Muslim I realize I am participating in Muslim worship. I would imagine if the friend who invited me found that except for the one day I year I join in that prayer, I say mosques shouldn't exist and that the religious are deluded (a la Dawkins) the friend may be offended or at least confused.
People on this thread keep claiming singing carols in church is just a Briitish tradition. I would hazard a guess that less than 10% of the population participates in this activity. To claim that this 10% simply can't understand what church or worship means is bizarre. I don't believe people are actually this stupid. The majority of people don't go, so the ones who do are making an effort.
Atheists who go to church at Christmas, short of familial pressure to attend, must like something about church or Christianity on some level. Otherwise such behavior is completely irrational. And they need to realize that if they slag off the church for the rest of the year, pretty soon there won't be anywhere nice for them to sing at Christmas except the Royal Albert Hall which charges upwards of £25 per person for the privilege.
[ 13. November 2014, 06:04: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
The point about bingo is that a church has many activities, some are worship and others are not. Those that also appear in a secular setting outside of Church may be seen as non-worship.
It seems obvious that the atheist attendees of the carol singing like the part of the church that is the Carol singing. They may have not much use for the worship.
If a Church doesn't want these people attending, it's pretty easy to filter them out. Charge admission or only allow members to attend. The Jewish houses of worship have the problem that there's a huge number of people who want to attend only on one or two holidays a year and at no other time. Many temples run multiple services to meet the demand and require very expensive tickets or membership which helps defray the cost of running the rest of the year.
If more and more churches close, there still will be Carols being sung at the malls and parties. I can't imagine someone worshipping in order to save the concert venue.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The point about bingo is that a church has many activities, some are worship and others are not. Those that also appear in a secular setting outside of Church may be seen as non-worship.
Again, this presupposes that people are very stupid, because they are not aware they are singing lyrics about souls finding their worth through the birth of the Messiah. Same as bingo to them.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The point about bingo is that a church has many activities, some are worship and others are not. Those that also appear in a secular setting outside of Church may be seen as non-worship.
Again, this presupposes that people are very stupid, because they are not aware they are singing lyrics about souls finding their worth through the birth of the Messiah. Same as bingo to them.
They know what the words mean. They just don't believe them. They sing them because they are part of their culture.
I'm really wondering why this is so hard for you SS.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I too am puzzled by the observance by many people at Christmas of the birth of someone they don't know, have never met and about whom they know next to nothing. I celebrate the birth of Jesus because I feel I know Him and believe in Him. However, I don't celebrate the birthday of the Prime Minister, because I don't know him, have never met him and know little about him. I would be happy to forego all the secular trapping of Christmas, but worship with other Christians at the midnight service is better than any Christmas present.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Not Everyone Is Like You would appear to be the issue here.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
They know what the words mean. They just don't believe them. They sing them because they are part of their culture.
I'm really wondering why this is so hard for you SS.
The hard part is you and others claiming that they don't know singing Christian songs in church is worship.
They know, and they do it anyway, and then they come up with odd excuses about why it's OK to sing those songs even though they don't believe.
If you enjoy singing carols then don't poo-poo Christianity during the rest of the year, the church is the reason that those carols exist in the first place and they speak to its faith.
Any non-believer who supports the church's existence and presence in public life is A-OK with me when it comes to celebrating Christmas. Someone like Dawkins, who treats my religion like a cultural activity when it suits him but as a menace to be snuffed out when it doesn't, I have no time for.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
They know what the words mean. They just don't believe them. They sing them because they are part of their culture.
I'm really wondering why this is so hard for you SS.
The hard part is you and others claiming that they don't know singing Christian songs in church is worship.
That is not my claim. My claim is that when these people do it they are not doing it as worship.
quote:
They know, and they do it anyway, and then they come up with odd excuses about why it's OK to sing those songs even though they don't believe.
Who are you to tell them what it's OK for them to sing and what it's not? They can sing what they bloody well like and you need to mind your own business, quite frankly.
quote:
If you enjoy singing carols then don't poo-poo Christianity during the rest of the year, the church is the reason that those carols exist in the first place and they speak to its faith.
Any non-believer who supports the church's existence and presence in public life is A-OK with me when it comes to celebrating Christmas. Someone like Dawkins, who treats my religion like a cultural activity when it suits him but as a menace to be snuffed out when it doesn't, I have no time for.
Exaggerate much? Dawkins thinks religion in the sense of actually believing its truth claims is silly, and doesn't approve of special privileges and influence being granted to it. I'll let you know when he starts wanting it "snuffed out". You make it sound like he's calling for making Christianity illegal.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
This thread is becoming daft. To say that people should not sing something, whose words they don't believe, is truly absurd.
It shows a weird kind of Christian imperialism - this carol means X, and you are not allowed to disbelieve that, not in my church anyway. Give me strength.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I don't see the point. Even if you think Dawkins is inconsistent, so fecking what? What are you going to do? I mean, he's a pretty strong atheist so it's not like you don't disapprove of him and what he thinks anyway. What's the point of getting all het up about this little foible of his, if he's the religion destroying monster he's portrayed?
Storm in a teacup. Big deal. Move on.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
FFS : they're in church, they're singing carols - what's not to like.
Whether or not they're 'worshipping' isn't for anyone to determine.
Non-churchgoers, non-believers, end up in churches around Christmas and like singing carols - Get over it.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This thread is becoming daft. To say that people should not sing something, whose words they don't believe, is truly absurd.
It shows a weird kind of Christian imperialism - this carol means X, and you are not allowed to disbelieve that, not in my church anyway. Give me strength.
I said they should be willing to acknowledge the inconsistency between claiming not to believe in a god, and then attending a service that sings praises to that god. I leave them to deal with which lyrics they sing and which they don't. As mentioned I knew many non-Christians who did not sing lyrics that contradicted their faith in the school choir.
They are welcome in my church or any church, as long as they are willing to engage if the question is asked, why are you here if you don't believe?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't see the point. Even if you think Dawkins is inconsistent, so fecking what? What are you going to do? I mean, he's a pretty strong atheist so it's not like you don't disapprove of him and what he thinks anyway. What's the point of getting all het up about this little foible of his, if he's the religion destroying monster he's portrayed?
Storm in a teacup. Big deal. Move on.
Isn't it because it demonstrates the decline of Christianity? We're not really talking about Dawkins. We're also talking about many people who might go to a carol service, but don't believe a word of it literally.
If a religion is being seen affectionately as a set of aesthetic relics, it is doomed - I think that is the fear being expressed covertly.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't see the point. Even if you think Dawkins is inconsistent, so fecking what? What are you going to do? I mean, he's a pretty strong atheist so it's not like you don't disapprove of him and what he thinks anyway. What's the point of getting all het up about this little foible of his, if he's the religion destroying monster he's portrayed?
Storm in a teacup. Big deal. Move on.
I'm calling him out for being hypocritical.
And I'm here to discuss, it's a discussion forum. You don't like what I'm saying - you can move on. This whole website is based on storms in teacups.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
And they need to realize that if they slag off the church for the rest of the year, pretty soon there won't be anywhere nice for them to sing at Christmas except the Royal Albert Hall which charges upwards of £25 per person for the privilege.
Why do you assume that atheists slag off Christianity?
Both of my sons are atheists, they can no longer believe. They have nothing whatever against religions of any flavour. But they have happy memories of Church in their childhood and talk about it quite often. If they are home they come to the carol service with me.
If anyone gets warm fuzzies at a carol service who are we to say that's wrong?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Why do you assume that atheists slag off Christianity?
I don't.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, Dawkins doesn't slag off the Church of England all year - he is always saying how fond he is of it. Inconsistent? I don't care really, as I know how inconsistent I am about tons of things. It's called being human.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't see the point. Even if you think Dawkins is inconsistent, so fecking what? What are you going to do? I mean, he's a pretty strong atheist so it's not like you don't disapprove of him and what he thinks anyway. What's the point of getting all het up about this little foible of his, if he's the religion destroying monster he's portrayed?
Storm in a teacup. Big deal. Move on.
I'm calling him out for being hypocritical.
No you're not. You're whining about it here. Why not call him out if you're so bothered by it - somewhere where he might see it.
quote:
And I'm here to discuss, it's a discussion forum. You don't like what I'm saying - you can move on. This whole website is based on storms in teacups.
Yeah, but this one's particularly pointless.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
A comment from one atheist who sums up why I find it odd for atheists to celebrate Christmas. Bolding is my own.
quote:
Fellow atheist here. If your not Christian, and you don't honestly believe that you are celebrating the birth of your savior, then my question is this: what the hell are you celebrating? And yes, you can be Christian and celebrate Easter because it is just like Christmas. It has been Christianized.
I know some people like to remind us that these holidays were just pagan celebrations once too, but I don't celebrate the solstice any more than Christmas. Because I am not pagan. I don't practice Hanukah, and I don't observe Ramadan.
My family is Christian, and they sure celebrate it but I don't. I haven't since I became an atheist. It doesn't matter to me if it has been traditionally regarded by my kin or not. It seems like there are only two reasons an atheist practices religious holidays... because they are chained down by some arbitrary sense of tradition, or because they are stuck in the psycho/social clutches of a system that makes them feel like an outsider for not participating in some way. I think the practice of atheist-Christmas is almost compulsory for those who do it.
And of course, as an atheist, I don't need a special day to be nice. I give gifts randomly and when I feel like it. I gather for merry making often, and without regard for what particular day of the year it is. That said though, if my very Christian family happens to buy me a gift, or invite me over, I will not be rude... but I have made it apparent to them that they don't need to, and I am happy to come to dinner without needing to participate in the religious aspects.
Patheos
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I just find it odd to say that atheists having a Christmas holiday is odd. Hint: Christmas is a secular holiday for many people. Big meal, prezzies, tons of booze and telly - not a hint of baby Jesus.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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